Most NEEDED new planes

[Charon]

There have been a lot of aircraft laundry lists posted lately -- a veritable index listing from some Aircraft encyclopedia. While I hope that all the significant and insignificant WW2 planes are added someday, from a practical standpoint what are the critical holes in the planeset? What are the FIVE most pressing NEWadditions. Here’s the criteria:

1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.

2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.

3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).

4. You have to explain your choices.

Here’s my list:

1. Ki-84. Performance with low octane fuel not enough to be perked, usage numbers significant, great plane for the MA and great plane to fill out late war PAC CT setups.

2. DO-217. The most significant “heavy bomber” from a country that did not promote strategic bombardment. The He-177 would be interesting as would the Ju-188, but the DO217 offers more than adequate MA performance with much greater historical significance for CT and scenarios.

3. TU-2. A toss up between this and the more historically significant Pe-2. High speed late war bomber that saw sufficient service with adequate CT usefulness but primarily a MA choice.

4. B-25. Adequate performance for the MA and attractive solid nose gun packages (I’m partial to the heavy .50 armed variants over the pack howitzer models). Used by most allies on all fronts in large numbers, with more conservative performance compared to the B-26. Parafrag and skip bombing would be neat additions. Variants could be B-25C, Pappy Gunn B-25C, B-25J glass-nosed and hard-nosed.

5. I-16/24. It may seem like an odd addition, but it would be a top turn and burner in the MA (with performance in recent tests regarded as being superior to the Hurricane 2) and armed with two cannons. It would a significant early war Russian fighter for CT usage. It would also be a useful start for a Spanish Civil War planeset (I-16/10) which I fully support along with Arlo

How about the top FIVE missing variants from the existing plane set? These would likely be shifted more towards mid-war/early war and CT importance since the existing variants are typically late war optimized.

1. P-38f/g/h I think one example, say the G to split the difference would be a representative “early” P-38 that would be sufficiently competitive in the MA, open up mid war CT and scenarios and saw significant service.

2. ME-109K4. While similar to the G-10, I would like to see what impact the aileron trim tabs had on high speed roll performance. Saw significant service, competitive and CT useful. Would it be a perk plane?

3. Ju-88 A2. Significant early war bomber much closer in performance to BOB era fighters.

4. MC-200. The only “significant” early (or late war, for that matter) Italian fighter missing from the planeset.

5. F4U1A. Perhaps the top performing “basic” Corsair.

Charon

[MajorDay]

Well, Italy, Japan, and most other country do need Fighter/Bomber/Tank/Floatplane/PT Boat really bad than we have now.

[Seeker]

He 162 (and then a Meteor; come on...)

He III

B 25

Early Fiats (North Afica; Malta and Eastern front)

T 34

Low alt Spit (XII; XVIII?)

[Charon]

Why those specific choices as related to the criteria I set, seeker?

He 162 (and then a Meteor; come on...) [insignificant service records]

He III [Historic, but low end for MA]

B 25 [agree]

Early Fiats (North Afica; Malta and Eastern front) [How significant were they, in comparison to the MC200?]

T 34 [Doesn't fly very well]

Low alt Spit (XII; XVIII?) [The XVI/LF would be great IMO, but perhaps lightly perked]

[edit: the purpose of this thread, and maybe it's just too much thinkin' for this bbs, is to develop a practical list of "must haves" vs. "wouldn't it be neats." My wouldn't it be neat list would be quite different in a few areas from the must have list, but would likely not be the best immediate use of HTC development time.]

Here are the basic criteria again for New additions, with more leeway for new variants from the existing planeset:

1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.

2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.

3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).

4. You have to explain your choices.

Charon

[Karnak]

Charon,

A note about the F4U-1A.  According to F4UDOA the F4U-1 that we have now actually hits the F4U-1A performance numbers pretty closely.  What we need is the F4U-1's FM to be fixed. Having the F4U-1A added would be nice, but with both the F4U-1 and F4U-1D it is not a huge gap in the planeset.

I also think you meant the Tu-2S not the Tu-4 as a bomber option.  I agree that the Pe-2 would make a better choice as with three variants the VVS would have a bomber for each stage of the war.

I mostly agree with your new aircraft list, though I would prefer the Ju188A-2 over the Do217.

My varients list would be:

A6M3b
Bf109G-6/AS or Bf109G-14
P-38F or P-38H
Mosquito B.Mk XVI
Spitfire Mk VIII

[Seeker]

OK; maybe the Jets are a bit esoteric.

I agree that the He III brings nothing new to the MA other than historic interest; but then that could equally be said of the B 25.  The Lanc carries more; and the Fort carries it higher. What need is there for a B 25? (though I want one  )

My understanding of the Fiats is that they were "very significant"; but I'll leave that to the real historians. They're certainly more significant than the late war Italian perk planes; I'm sure we can agree

The T 34 because we need at least some choice for an opposition to the Panzer (and hopefully one day a Nip tank as well). It's true that the MA is "non aligned"; but most squads have some semblance of historicity; The Whermacht needs a counter part. It's one of AH's more obvious "points of imbalance".

I'd like a low alt Spit. The whole question of perks is a whole new thread on game play. I certainly think much, much more could be done with them (perks); and I hope that onnce the enormous programming effort of AH2 is done; more attention could be paid to "the game engine"; both with what CM's can do in the various specialist arenas; and in how the MA caters for the "MA player".

[Xjazz]

I-16/24?! And it would a significant early war Russian fighter for CT usage?

Well, then we surely need this one!


Highest kill ratio of any WW2 plane type and also highest scoring single airframe.

[zmeg]

1 KI-43 oscar
2 KI-84 frank
3 T-34 Rusian tank
4 sherman firefly
5 G4M betty

[Charon]

Oy...

Here are the basic criteria again for New additions, with more leeway for new variants from the existing planeset:

1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.

2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.

3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).

4. You have to explain your choices. Just to show some thought has gone into the process.

What are the handful of NEEDED planes that HTC could add with the next patch to be useful in both the MA and the CT. If there would only be five new planes added and five new variants added EVER, which ones would be the best? Which ones would offer the most bang for the buck? A low alt spit... good selection. Brewester? Hell, I think the Finnish virtual avaition community should be rewarded for its dedication, regardless of how well the plane would fare in the MA KI-43? As valid as the I-16 on my list I suppose, but the peashooters would negate the extra turning ability IMO.

Since HTC aren't going to add 138 new planes and variants with the next patch, which ones should be at the very top of the list and WHY?

Thanks for the considered responses Karnak and Seeker.

Charon

[NOD2000]

common wealth boomerang- why? well, it is the only austrailian plane that i feel would truly be a threat. It could be used in the CT because its a mid to late war plane. It would also not be a hanger queen because people would not know exactly what to expect upon encountering one (sort of like running into a FM2 or F4F). I belive it would be a great addition to AH2:aok

[Capt. Pork]

A variant of the Joseph Stalin Tank would be a nice counterpart to the Tiger. Also, the Panther would be great all around, but I'd personally settle for a t-34 (although an accurately modeled site would probably make it an acquired taste).

[Kweassa]

Top five most needed, no doubt should  be devoted to the plane set with largest holes. Let's see.. our entire pre-1943 VVS set is missing, and Japanese mid/late war plane set has gaping holes.

 Ok.. the agenda is:

1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2

2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA

3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT

4. You have to explain your choices.

-----------------------------

1. Ki-84-Ia(late JP)

 Is the Spitfire and the N1K2 competitive? Heck, those two planes share combined kills of 20% in the MA! Then people are gonna love the Ki-84-Ia. Performance specs and maneuverability is simular to the Spitfire MkIX, and acceleration characteristics would be simular to a La-5FN. It is also the single missing "late war plane" amongst all countries(except Italy).

2. Yak-7A(early VVS)

 Early war soviets used a mix of planes - among them are the Yaks. The early Yak choices available, would be the Yak-1 or the Yak-7 - the two-seat trainer Yaks were modified into a single-seat fighter to fill the shortage of Yak-1s. It would be pretty much limited in the MA, but a goode opponent among the early war planes - Bf109E-4, SpitMkIa, A6M2, C.202 and etc.

3. I-16/24(early VVS)

 Another early war VVS plane. Alternative choice was the LaGG-3 - especially because the current plane set lacks most Lavochkin series fighters which saw use through out the whole war in the East. However, the popularity of the I-16 is immense among people who know them. It's funky shape, popularity, amazing maneuverability, plus the ability to carry rockets for variety of use, and scenario possibilities such as the Spanish Civil War, and usefulness in the CT, comes as a huge advantage over the LaGG.

4. Yak-1B(early/mid VVS)

 The "first light" of Yak series fighters, which began to prove itself as an amazing competition to the Luftwaffe. Speed and climb characteristics a little short of the Bf109G-2, but maneuverability better than the F-4. It's historic role is significant, as the first real threat to the Luftwaffe, and it also provides a perfect mid-war plane for the VVS. Particularly useful in setups upto 1942. This mid-war plane evolves from the Yak-1 line.

5. Yak-9D(mid VVS)

 The most numerously produced VVS fighter. It seems there are a lot of Yaks in VVS setups, but that is only natural. As many variants there are with all those 109s and 190s, the Yaks also evolved step-by-step to meet them. It's performance characteristics would be simular to our Yak-9T, but armed with the better performing ShVAK 20mm cannons.

 ...

 The Yak-9D could also be somewhat 'modified' from what we already have. Basically, just as late Bf109s have an option to mount either 20mm or 30mm cannons, we could offer the same choice to the Yak-9T. If it flies with the 20mms, it'd be a Yak-9D, and if it flies with a 37mm, it becomes a Yak-9T.

 So, if in that case, the Yak-9D, is "incorporated" into the existing plane set as described above, then the alternative fifth choice for me would be:

5. P-39N

 Large quantities of the P-39s have been lend-leased to the Soviet Union. It's specs are little lacking compared to mid-war Bf109s such as the G-2, but it has a potential of becoming a very characteristic and competitive plane. Another plus side is, this plane belongs to a US plane set, but also has significant meaning to the VVS plane set - most of all VVS aces have been born from the P-39 - Glinka brothers, Fadeyev, Pokryshkin, you name it.


 Additionally welcome, would be the Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-45,
A6M3, Mig-3, LaGG-3, P-38G.

[Charon]

Top five most needed, no doubt should be devoted to the plane set with largest holes. Let's see.. our entire pre-1943 VVS set is missing, and Japanese mid/late war plane set has gaping holes.

For the CT only I agree. But for both the MA and CT only the Ki-84 would apply from your list. A Lagg-3 would see less use than a P-40E in an MA environment and be another hanger queen.

If you had to pick five "common" WW2 planes that would fill out the CT but still be on the performance level of an MC 205 or FW-190 A8 in the MA, which would those be?

Charon

[Kweassa]

Charon, according to your agenda, there are no planes left that can be modelled.

 All of the 'competitive' and 'common' have been already modelled - Spit9, N1K2(well.. this one ain't common..), La-7, P-51D, Typhoon, F4U-1, Fw190D-9, Bf109G-10 etc.

 None of the planes that are left out currently, will be able to beat any of the above listed late war freaks in any of their traits, with maybe the exception of better turning radius or smaller plane size.

 Ofcourse, only the exception, the Ki-84.

 ..

 Let's face it - the only planes that are left to be modelled, are the hangar queens or CT/ToD planes. HTC began it's approach to modelling planes from the late years, and there are no more competitive planes left.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Charon
Oy...

Here are the basic criteria again for New additions, with more leeway for new variants from the existing planeset:

1. The plane had to have seen at least somewhat significant service in WW2 -- No G55 perk planes.

2. It has to be basically competitive in the MA (on the order of a MC 205 or FW-190A8) -- no hanger queens.

3. It has to fill a reasonable role in the CT (most likely a late-war CT setup, given the preceding criteria).

4. You have to explain your choices. Just to show some thought has gone into the process.

What are the handful of NEEDED planes that HTC could add with the next patch to be useful in both the MA and the CT.  

The problem is that I don't agree that #2 serves a useful purpose for criteria (but I do appreciate you supporting the idea that an SCW enviroment - planeset and terrain - would be a practical addition to AH). The MA has all the planes it will ever need. All of the uber fighters (including the best and only widely used Jet). One of the best bombers of the war (the B-17 - arguments for the B-24 serve no purpose for it's addition to the MA). Two of the best tanks of the war are already in the MA (although there is a good argument in favor of the T-34 being superior, it wouldn't be enough of an advantage to warrant it's addition to the MA).

The only practical reason for adding planes and vehicles to AH now is to fill the scenario/TOD gaps. That precludes the model's "uber-factor" in the MA.

Given the advances AHII apparently will have regarding it's ground terrain, I see it only natural to add one or two Allied heavy tanks to facilitate a beefed up, more immersive groundwar
setting for scenarios.

• Sherman/Sherman variant
  
• T-34
  

Another factor to consider is .. the competition (be that as it may). Planes that are featured in Warbirds or ... even IL2 ... may make the deciding factor to a player when choosing what game community to join. Therefore adding planes they have modeled (or at least the more commonplace ones from the war) only seems natural if one wishes to appeal to potential cutomers who are comparing products:

• Ki-84
  
• B-25
  
• G4M
  
• P-39
  
• B-24
  
• A6M3
  
• I-16
  

After this stage is reached ... then perhaps AH can start adding planes that other sims have overlooked to give the planeset a "more expansive" appeal. I, however, don't hold with the idea that all potential players are looking for late/post-war rides to make the game more interesting. But we already know what I'm promoting there.