Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: sethipus on August 30, 2007, 03:20:30 PM
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They're the same ENY value, and both have a version that has 2x13mm machine guns and 1x30mm tater gun. So armament is comparable.
Does anyone know what the substantive differences are between the G-14 and the K-4? And in terms of performance in AH?
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The K4 is very fast and climbs better. The G14 turns slightly better.
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Originally posted by Motherland
The K4 is very fast and climbs better. The G14 turns slightly better.
what he said and g14 has different gun packs.
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K model was designed for bomber interception . It has a pressurized cockpit and has better high alt performance, kinda like the FW190 high alt version the TA152. The G models were funny, the G10 came after the G14
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wasnt the g10 the fastest of the 109s?
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The K-4 has a better engine that's also geared for higher alt work (it's way better at 25k than the G14 is!) but did not have as many weapons options as the G-14 did. The G-14 was fairly close to the K-4 under 16k, but a bit slower (this means it also climbed a little slower, and accelerated a little slower) -- but it still is close to the K-4.
Take the K-4 for speed and climb. Take the G14 for weapons options and turn rate. That being said, you can still turn with the K-4 and you can still climb and run with the G14. One's just better suited than the other.
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Originally posted by JimBeam
wasnt the g10 the fastest of the 109s?
The G10 was the fastest Gustave.
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Bf109K was made to simplify the logistics of the Bf109 series.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The K-4 has a better engine that's also geared for higher alt work (it's way better at 25k than the G14 is!) but did not have as many weapons options as the G-14 did. The G-14 was fairly close to the K-4 under 16k, but a bit slower (this means it also climbed a little slower, and accelerated a little slower) -- but it still is close to the K-4.
What is the FTH of each?
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G14 has class, the K4 is a german runstang :D
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
What is the FTH of each?
FTH of versions we have in game:
109k-4 ~22000ft
109g-14 ~16000ft
At WEP k-4 is 10-20mph from 0-16k then 40-50mph faster at higher alts. Climb at WEP is similar for both up to 16k, and above that the k climbs better. Without WEP the differences are more pronounced and the g-14 is no better than a 1943 109g-6, but with WEP it's very capable at low to medium altittudes.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109g14&p2=109k4
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Thanks, tux, you beat me to posting that link :D
Interestingly enough, the G-14 beats the K-4 for climb below 5k. Just barely, but still interesting to note.
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"K model was designed for bomber interception."
Yes, just like the 190A8... ;)
-C+
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Originally posted by JimBeam
wasnt the g10 the fastest of the 109s?
IIRC it was roughly 20 mph slower than the K4
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"It has a pressurized cockpit"
Also, like the 190 A-8 :D
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The G14 is listed as having a top speed of 403 at 7000M and 326 near the ground. I've had trouble getting the G14 up to top speed at the reported alt. Seems to take for ever to reach 390 and even longer to get to the best speed i've ever gotten of 398. Others have reported higher top end speeds but I've never gotten as fast as they report????? Might be my throttle calibration?
http://www.adlertag.de/mainindex.htm
The K4 is listed as having a top speed of 452 at 7500M and 320 near the ground.
http://www.adlertag.de/mainindex.htm
There was a considerable loadout difference between the models.
The K4, IMHO, accelerates faster then the G14.
I've also read reports that the G14 was occasionally outfitted with 2 additional 20mm underwing gondolas giving it 5 20mm and was mostly used for ground attack.
The G10 was faster then the G14 listed at 426 at 7400M and also had a broader weapons selection like the G14.
IMHO AH needs the G10 for scenarios and Combat Tour.
My reasoning is the allied planes FAR outclass the G14 above 16.5K And the K4 30mm can be a REAL problem to hit with. The G10 would fit right in perfectly. Would probably be flow MUCH more then the K4 in the MA as well IMHO.
The G10 would fit in quite nicely and give those flyin axis a better chance vs the allied planes. It would make Combat Tour both more challenging for the allies and more enjoyable for the axis.
As it is now the 190's suffer preformance wise when flow much above 20K and the K4 with the 30mm flys GREAT, BUT that doesn't help you much if you can't hit anything with it.
In AH1 we had the G10 but it had the top speed of the K4 and the loadout capabilities of the G10.
I for one would rejoice if we got a G10 that did 426 at about 22K.
One of the arguments used against a G10 was it would be just another G14 even though the specs say otherwise. Also got the who flys at 20k in the MA argument.
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I would also really like to get the G10
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I would also really like to get the G10
Me too:aok
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The K4 is listed as having a top speed of 452 at 7500M and 320 near the ground.
That is for the penny pocket numbers of K-4s using 1.98ata boost.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
That is for the penny pocket numbers of K-4s using 1.98ata boost.
There were several units cleared for 1.98ata at least in February/March 1945.
But Adlertag probably has it wrong, this value is referred to an experimental version with a special prop. A production K-4 should be able to reach ~712 km/h (442,5 mph) in Full throttle height. But as the highest speed with the Bf 109 is usually reached 500 to 1000m above FTH the 452 mph might be correct although hard data is missing for this.
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Originally posted by Denniss
There were several units cleared for 1.98ata at least in February/March 1945.
Yes 4 Gruppen with a total of ~160 a/c with ~70 servicable. A penny pocket number. Now how many a/c is there suppose to be in a Gruppe?
It is questionable how many a/c were actually converted to 1.98ata.
There is an old phrase I found on another board:
Kapt K: cleared = used by the LW; cleared = NOT used by the Allies
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Originally posted by Charge
"K model was designed for bomber interception."
Yes, just like the 190A8... ;)
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Actually the G14 was more like a A8 as they were up gunned and armored for bomber-destroyer work, K was more like a D9 as it was a new type of 109 ready to tackle the tasks in a better way. the 109H(rejected) was competing for a spot against the Ta152 has high alt bomber interceptor, guess who won the contest?
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Originally posted by PanzerIV
Actually the G14 was more like a A8 as they were up gunned and armored for bomber-destroyer work,
Neither the G-14 nor the A-8 were up gunned or up armored. Both retained the same guns/armor as the G-6/A-7
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Neither the G-14 nor the A-8 were up gunned or up armored. Both retained the same guns/armor as the G-6/A-7
I read different.
[edit] Fw 190 A-8
The Fw 190 A-8 entered production in February 1944, it was either powered by the standard BMW 801 D-2 or the 801Q (also known as 801TU). The 801Q/TU was a standard 801D with improved, thicker armour on the front annular cowling, which also incorporated the oil tank, upgraded from 6 mm on earlier models to 10 mm. Changes introduced with the Fw 190 A-8 also included the C3-injection Erhöhte Notleistung emergency boost system to the fighter variant of the Fw 190 A (a similar system with less power had been fitted to some earlier Jabo variants of the 190 A) raising power to 1,980 PS (1,953 hp, 1,456 kW) for a short time. The Erhöhte Notleistung system operated by spraying additional fuel into the fuel/air mix, cooling it and allowing higher boost pressures to be run, but at the cost of much higher fuel consumption. From the A-8 on Fw 190s could be fitted with a new paddle-bladed wooden propeller, easily identified by its wide blades with curved tips. A new bubble canopy design, with greatly improved vision sideways and forward had been developed for the F-2 ground attack model, but was often seen fitted at random on A-8s, F-8s and G-8s. The new canopy included a larger piece of head armour which was supported by reinforced bracing and a large fairing. A new internal fuel tank with a capacity of 115l was fitted behind the cockpit, which meant that the radio equipment had to be moved forward to just behind the pilot. Externally, a large round hatch was incorporated into the lower fuselage to enable the new tank to be installed and the pilot's oxygen bottles were moved aft and positioned around this hatch. A fuel filler was added to the port side, below the rear canopy and a rectangular radio access hatch was added to starboard. Other changes included an ETC 501 under-fuselage rack which was mounted on a lengthened carrier and moved 200mm further forward to help restore the centre of gravity of the aircraft. This fuselage would form the basis for all later variants of the Fw 190 and the Ta 152 series. The Morane "whip" aerial for Y-Verfahren was fitted as standard under the port wing, just aft of the wheel-well. Nearly a dozen Rüstsätze kits were made available for the A-8, including the famous A-8/R2 and A-8/R8 Sturmbockmodels. [b]The A-8/R2 replaced the outer wing 20 mm cannon with a 30 mm MK 108 cannon, the A-8/R8 was similar but fitted with heavy armour including 30 mm canopy and windscreen armour and 5 mm cockpit armour. The A-8 was the most numerous of the Fw 190 A's, with over 6,550 A-8 airframes produced from March 1944 to May 1945. A-8's were produced by at least eight factories during its lifetime.[/b]
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Please always cite your source if you copy&paste text (it's from Wikipedia).
And it's correct to say the A-8 was neither upgunned nor uparmored as those aircraft were special variants/subtypes and the 801Q was optional/late war standard variant.
The Bf 109 G-14 was not upgunned, only the subtype G-14/U4 was (30 mm MK 108 instead of the 20 mm MG 151 engine cannon). G-14 and G-14/U4 could be upgraded with the optional Rüstsatz kit R6 installed (two underwing 20 mm MG 151). The only improvement in armor was with the Erla-Haube and the Galland Head armor but this was introduced in Erla-produced G-6.
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Please always cite your source if you copy&paste text (it's from Wikipedia).
And it's correct to say the A-8 was neither upgunned nor uparmored as those aircraft were special variants/subtypes and the 801Q was optional/late war standard variant.
The Bf 109 G-14 was not upgunned, only the subtype G-14/U4 was (30 mm MK 108 instead of the 20 mm MG 151 engine cannon). G-14 and G-14/U4 could be upgraded with the optional Rüstsatz kit R6 installed (two underwing 20 mm MG 151). The only improvement in armor was with the Erla-Haube and the Galland Head armor but this was introduced in Erla-produced G-6.
again semantics. So the Fw190 A-8 R-2 wasn't a FW 190 A-8.? It's like calling a P-47 D -11 a completly different plane than the P-47 D-40.The wing cannon upgun wasn't a bolt on addition it was a upgunned version of the A-8 with a designation. Maybe they should have called it a FW 190 A8 1/2 so theres no confusion.
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As I said above, these were special versions. The standard A-8 had no improvements in armor and armament other than the optional improved engine armor.
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The Fw190A8 was not an up gunned 190, the Fw190A8- R2 was an upgunned Fw190A8.
Semantics, but really there is a difference.
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The K4 is very fast and climbs better. The G14 turns slightly better.
109K4 is the best climbing fighter of the game (exception with perk planes.)
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109K4 is the best climbing fighter of the game (exception with perk planes.)
15k in 1/3 of a sector
WOOT!
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"The Fw190A8 was not an up gunned 190, the Fw190A8- R2 was an upgunned Fw190A8."
And if that is not clear enough let me rephrase it: There was no general variant (190AX or 109GX or KX) of German fighters that was "built for bomber interception" (as has been erroneously referred with 190A8).
Later variants had more Rüstsätze (field conversion) so that planes could be equipped with what ever loadout was needed for specific missions, and of course there were more options for bomber interception tasks too. In 190 series this was probably more possible due to new wing introduced with A6. It was not exactly like "plug and play" but the conversions were easy enough to be made in the units. Umrüst bausätze (/U2 etc) were bigger (factory) conversions of the earlier and some later models which eventually resulted e.g. in F and G variants of 190 along with "Mistel" and torpedo bomber variants.
"again semantics. So the Fw190 A-8 R-2 wasn't a FW 190 A-8.? It's like calling a P-47 D -11 a completly different plane than the P-47 D-40.The wing cannon upgun wasn't a bolt on addition it was a upgunned version of the A-8 with a designation. Maybe they should have called it a FW 190 A8 1/2 so theres no confusion."
Actually thats not any friggin semantics but a knowledge of what was the basic or most representative loadout for which variant. You could argue that with A7 which half of the production was delivered with R2 conversion but that would make what, 40 aircraft? If you look at the conversion types you'll notice that all Rs for A8 (actually from A6 onwards) are for bomber interception but that is because (from A5 onwards) there already was F (and for some time G) variant which took care of ground duties. The basic A8 had two MG131s and four MG151/20s and was meant a fighter. Sometimes seen with just two inboard cannons but I guess it was easier to leave the outer guns out and just plug some R under wing if needed without need to disassemble the outer wing bay to remove those 151/20s.
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Why 30mm in 109 then? In numbers a single MK108 was more effective than a single MG151/20. How useful was it in aircombat then? Well, surely if you need to make a deflection shot its not as good as 151/20 but if you get a freebie from 6 o'c at an unalarmed target (as claimed to represent 80% of planes shot down in WW2) even one hit would be enough -and against an occasional bomber four hits could be enough +no additional drag and a small change in weight. Of course MK108 was considered a better choice for such a small fighter.
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A pretty comprehensive listing of 190 variants (although some which I doubt ever existed):
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/best-fw-190-variant-712-19.html
-C+
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Regardless whether the A-8 was upgunned and up-armored or not, the fact remains it's got big guns and good armor. 'Nuff said.
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It's not really "armored".... you imply it's got a chunk of metal lining it that bounces bullets off.
Really the only armor in 90% of all planes in this game is immediately behind the pilot and the forward glass on some models.
What you're talking about is "good durability" or "airframe strength" or general resiliance.
Not "armor"...
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Not "armor"...
Then what of the significant weight difference between the A8 and earlier BMW-powered 190's? That cant all be ammo.
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I would also really like to get the G10
Here we go again! :P
Add me to the list.
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Here we go again! :P
Add me to the list.
And me.
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And for you guys who are bad at shooting, go fly a 109K4 for 2 weeks and learn to shoot the 30mm tater good, then just take up a P-51 or a Jug.
I did that last night by climbing into an FM2 and I landed 4 kills and 1 assist. :D
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yea, K-4 has more Horsepower i belive, but flys like a brick at slow speeds, G-14 turns alot better, but isnt as fast
-BigBOBCH
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yea, K-4 has more Horsepower i belive, but flys like a brick at slow speeds, G-14 turns alot better, but isnt as fast
-BigBOBCH
I like the fact that the 109K4 can out run just about anything on the deck and in the air. And if an La-7 hunts me down, I can just out turn him :D
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Anyone realize this is an old thread? :P
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@Charge:
myth: only 80 Fw 190 A-7 were build
fact: 701 were delivered between November 1943 and April 1944
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This is what I have for A-7 production:
11-43 > 27
12-43 > 72
1-44 > 199
2-44 > 137
3-44 > 182
4-44 > 8
total > 625
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Thx for correction guys. So its build number was about half of A8s built.
-C+
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Charge, this is what I have on Fw production
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/Fw190production-1.gif)
and
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/Fw190-prod.jpg)
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Thx Milo, I saw the corrected total somewhere and started counting and towards the end of war the sum did not seem to add up. Was there any info of what was the possible explanation?
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PS. Maybe too early for me to wish they had over 5000 "brand new" A8s stacked somewhere and ponder how much one would cost today? :D
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In my opinion the difference between the k-4 manuevaranility is minuscule and that the added speed and high alt performance make the k-4 better because it can catch all of those runners out there and the few it can't out run it can just slow em down then spiral climb up to 20k and absolutely slaughter them.(I actually did this once against an La-7 and was going to head as high as possible but a shortage of fuel forced me to stop and quickly finish him off. I then glided to the nearest base saving my fuel for landing corrections my wheels hit the ground and I slowed to a stop and my engine sputtered out) Also the 30mm once you get good with it like agent 360 and others is MORE effective than other guns due to the 99% 1 shot kill or immobilization.(taking part of the wing off a plane that can fly with only one) The 13mms are also a credible back up that can be used to scare enemies into turning or finishing off an enemy.
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The difference is the k4 is superior in just about every aspect.
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The difference is the k4 is superior in just about every aspect.
G14 is more manouverable and is much easier to fly. personally I dont like K4 at all, in my opinion G14 is the most balanced 109. But what do I know, Im a noob...
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G14 is more manouverable and is much easier to fly. personally I dont like K4 at all, in my opinion G14 is the most balanced 109. But what do I know, Im a noob...
x2 noob included :)
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The F is the nicest to fly... It's an absolute pleasure... but as far as brute force goes... The K4 cannot be beaten.
The difference between the G-14 and K4's turning ability may not look huge on paper but it is significant in game. I notice a big difference between the two and I will up a Gustav if I need a quickish plane than can really mix it up in a good fight too.... Base defence against a CV... the Gustav is perfect if the cons know what they're doing.
If they're seals I'll just up a G-2 or G-6 and make use of the 200 20mm rounds. If they're smart and I need a bit of extra grunt to keep the carrier steel honest in a fight, I'll go with a G-14.
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In my opinion the difference between the k-4 manuevaranility is minuscule and that the added speed and high alt performance make the k-4 better because it can catch all of those runners out there and the few it can't out run it can just slow em down then spiral climb up to 20k and absolutely slaughter them.(I actually did this once against an La-7 and was going to head as high as possible but a shortage of fuel forced me to stop and quickly finish him off. I then glided to the nearest base saving my fuel for landing corrections my wheels hit the ground and I slowed to a stop and my engine sputtered out) Also the 30mm once you get good with it like agent 360 and others is MORE effective than other guns due to the 99% 1 shot kill or immobilization.(taking part of the wing off a plane that can fly with only one) The 13mms are also a credible back up that can be used to scare enemies into turning or finishing off an enemy.
What alt did you start at?
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In my opinion the difference between the k-4 manuevaranility is minuscule and that the added speed and high alt performance make the k-4 better because it can catch all of those runners out there and the few it can't out run it can just slow em down then spiral climb up to 20k and absolutely slaughter them.(I actually did this once against an La-7 and was going to head as high as possible but a shortage of fuel forced me to stop and quickly finish him off. I then glided to the nearest base saving my fuel for landing corrections my wheels hit the ground and I slowed to a stop and my engine sputtered out) Also the 30mm once you get good with it like agent 360 and others is MORE effective than other guns due to the 99% 1 shot kill or immobilization.(taking part of the wing off a plane that can fly with only one) The 13mms are also a credible back up that can be used to scare enemies into turning or finishing off an enemy.
I fly solely the g14 and have for a good year or so since i switched for the k4 the change is huge and i believe anyone who has flown the g14 enough knows it, like mip and wmaker for example, and you are aware the g14 carries an optional 30mm as well? Only real advantage i see with the k4 is running, climbing(above 10k), and maybe catching some of the faster planes.
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What alt did you start at?
about 3k
I fly solely the g14 and have for a good year or so since i switched for the k4 the change is huge and i believe anyone who has flown the g14 enough knows it, like mip and wmaker for example, and you are aware the g14 carries an optional 30mm as well? Only real advantage i see with the k4 is running, climbing(above 10k), and maybe catching some of the faster planes.
I have plenty of k-4 sorties and a average amount of g-14 sorties and just find the k-4 to be better overall. I guess people just have different opinions.
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Only real advantage i see with the k4 is running, climbing(above 10k), and maybe catching some of the faster planes.
That alone constitues all the prerequisites required to become a successful MA plane.
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That alone constitues all the prerequisites required to become a successful MA plane.
not neccesary if you have half an atom of skill or acm knowledge.
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freez why the 14 over the 2?
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freez why the 14 over the 2?
I like the 30mm in general but the g14 airframe suites me, i take the 2 for furballs all the time, but i fly by feeling and i need the extra wieght of the g14 to through around, sounds wierd I know, in theory the lighter the better, but for me its rather opposite. I need that wieght for some of my acms and overshoots almost like muscle memory.
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I like the fact that the 109K4 can out run just about anything on the deck and in the air. And if an La-7 hunts me down, I can just out turn him
LA7 turns significantly better than K4...
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LA7 turns significantly better than K4...
but hes uber leet!
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LA7 turns significantly better than K4...
Fwiw, unless you're in the weeds, the 109K-4 is faster than the La-7. Stay above 5k and they're not so dangerous.
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Fwiw, unless you're in the weeds, the 109K-4 is faster than the La-7. Stay above 5k and they're not so dangerous.
even at 5k the la7 outmanouvers the k4 ;)
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even at 5k the la7 outmanouvers the k4 ;)
Yea, I was disturbed to learn the La7 out-turns the F6F w/ and w/o flaps. :O
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not neccesary if you have half an atom of skill or acm knowledge.
Half an atom of skill or acm itself isn't at all necessary when you can simply choose the fastest planes and pick your fights...
But, nice try.
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Half an atom of skill or acm itself isn't at all necessary when you can simply choose the fastest planes and pick your fights...
But, nice try.
Boring. Personally I cant fight with k4, ofcourse I can fly it allover without getting killed. :D
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Half an atom of skill or acm itself isn't at all necessary when you can simply choose the fastest planes and pick your fights...
Even if you have luxury of choosing your fights, you still have to fight and that's when ACM applies. Unless of course, running and picking counts as fighting, or you're so good that you can fight at 400+mph speeds.
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Hey now, the pilots of high-wingloading aircraft wouldn't have to run if the rest of you didn't turn so much. :D
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low-wingloading aircraft wouldn't have to run if the rest of you didn't turn so much. :D
Low wingloading is normally better for turning than high wingloading (depends on CL)
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Nonsense, i don't have a problem aiming MY 109K's 30mm :P.
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Doh, I got that backwards. :o Meant it the other way around. :P
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Boring. Personally I cant fight with k4, ofcourse I can fly it allover without getting killed.
Oh I agree it can be boring Mip, but that was never the point.
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Search Bar.
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Search Bar.
Actually, I don't think either of them were equipped with a search bar...
:D