Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ack-Ack on March 13, 2008, 01:48:32 AM
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When it's this...
Merge - This is the shot at the merge. Don't know what kind of merge he was trying but as you can see in the screenshot and in the film, he presented a sweet profile shot.
Screenshot 1 (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=cz2ymitmnx3&thumb=5)
This is the screenshot a few seconds later of the second burst I hit him with.
Screenshot 2 (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=vdomj2iwmbc&thumb=6)
This is the final burst. The smoke and fire trail is mine, got hit by one of the cherry pickers on my six. For some reason, the fire graphics was displayed incorrectly when I took the screenshot.
Screenshot 3 (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=1bzyrijecun&thumb=6)
Here is the short film. I do hope the La-7 driver posts his film of this fight, would be interesting to see what his front end showed.
When is a HO not a HO? (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?otunz4tzvww)
While you watch the film, pay attention to what the La-7 does to the first plane he merges with.
ack-ack
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I'd have to side with Ack-Ack on that one, it was more a deflection shot then a HO.
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Yeah not even close to a HO.
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No discussion there, it's not a HO!
A HO occurs when both planes have a gun solution on the other one face :salute
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Hell ... I don't even care if it's a ho or not. In AHII the face is a legit target. No more or less than the arse, shoulder, kneecap or tongue. Yeah, it's funny when the whine isn't accurate but .... I've yet to see a whine that was clueful , accurate or not.
Keeeeel them Ack-Ack. :D
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its just the other player looking for excuses to why he got shot down by a bomber....cough p38 :)
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Does it matter if it was a HO or not? Someone got deaded. Let them whine, let them whine, let them whine.
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Generally, the rule is that if you win it, it was a forward quarter deflection shot. If you lost, the b**tage HO'ed ya.
No amount of discussion will ever change this basic rule...
<S>
Grue
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a ho ain't a ho *until* she screws the gov. of NY....oh, wait....
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A HO is when I get shot down trying to go head on. A high deflection shot is when I go headon and win :rock
I think that should settle it.
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The head on has always mystified me in this simulation. Why do people act as though this NEVER happened in real life? I've watched several episodes of Dogfights where the REAL pilots speak of HO engagements. My view is this, fly straight at me and you'll get 4 20mm and 2 30mm cannon from a fw190a8. I promise.
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I won't say any names, but I was fighting a 38 the other day in a 38. Cold merge, he saved all his E and went for the double, I angled and reacted, we met at the top of the second. I could see that we were going to collide nose to nose, even though he was about 80 feet above me as he came over the top before I did, as I had saved my last bit of E to pass and fall over him as he went by. But, our paths were bringing us to a nose to nose collision. So, I nosed down a bit so we wouldn't collide, and he shot the smack out of me from about 20 feet above me into my canopy and right wing. Immediately, he said he had a nice canopy shot. Now, so if someone is constantly pushing(the get around before he does and shoot front quarter first) type of fight, then they have parts of their acm that need work. I fight great sticks everyday and many are my friends, there has never been a fight between that group, where a HO/high deflection shot, had to be taken for someone to win. Most all end in someone getting shot from dead six. No matter if the pilots are of equal skill, eventually, a 6 shot will be gained(or a shot that is from behind the 3/9) if they fight long enough. Now I understand that in the MA sometimes you need to kill the guy quick, but there is a "breed" of pilot out there that thinks (in their own mind), that getting around quick is something that they only know. They are nervous and trigger happy and instead of getting a truly great experience out of completely owning and outflying the other guy, they would just settle on some (toenail hair front quarter high deflection) shot and argue about it not being a HO. :rolleyes:
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A shot is a shot, a kill is a kill, dead is dead. Good work, Ack-Ack :aok
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Impossible title.
A HO is always a HO. If the situation is not a HO then it is not a HO.
No-one ever gets HO'ed, they HO themselves... both pilots have to HO to make it a HO.
Nothing bad in HO, one only risks it all. It is like "all in" in Texas hold'em. It is like a wild west shoot-out..... would one whine about HO there: "You dweeb, why did you shoot face to face, why didn't you sneak around and shoot me in the back?" :devil
I sometimes HO, even though my goal is to land kills. Sometimes the situation simply leads to HO.
Everyone, quit finally whining about HO:s :rock
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Well.....
If you pay for it, it's a HO.... :D
:noid
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Even the Santa HOs, and many times -why won't you? :D
-C+
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Question shouldn't be When is a HO not a HO?....Question should be When are people going to stop whining about dieing in a game. I could care less how you die or how I die. It's a freaking game. Object is to kill your oponent anyway possible without cheating. I understand the frustration, but can't understand why some get so worked up. Ohh well, I know I am not going to sweat it.
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who da ho?
I da ho?
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No-one ever gets HO'ed, they HO themselves... both pilots have to HO to make it a HO.
HO, Head On, is exactly that, a head on pass. We dogfighters, do not think shooting on the HO is very fun. Matter of factly, many of us think of it as very lame, boring, and cheapish! It takes very little skill, it takes very little understanding of acm's, and it is something that should be graduated from. It is a newb tactic showing little knowlege of merges and acm's! :aok
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Question shouldn't be When is a HO not a HO?....Question should be When are people going to stop whining about dieing in a game. I could care less how you die or how I die. It's a freaking game. Object is to kill your oponent anyway possible without cheating. I understand the frustration, but can't understand why some get so worked up. Ohh well, I know I am not going to sweat it.
Who's worked up? Can people not discuss a topic without punks like you coming in here and calling them whiners? I haven't seen a whine in this thread yet. Did you stop to think that maybe some play this game to fight, and not to just randomly fly around shooting people in the face like it was some nintendo game? Why must you come in this thread and "attempt" to act like you hold a more mature perception of this game than others? :rolleyes:
Sit down!
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akak everything is a ho for you! :D
donkey
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So, I nosed down a bit so we wouldn't collide, and he shot the smack out of me from about 20 feet above me into my canopy and right wing. Immediately, he said he had a nice canopy shot. Now, so if someone is constantly pushing(the get around before he does and shoot front quarter first) type of fight, then they have parts of their acm that need work.
Scary is the day when people start agreeing with SkyRock but I have to concur with his line of thought here. Theres a ton of cases where I run into pilots that are willing to sell-out everything in order to get a guns solution, whether it's a HO, hung out stall shot, or a shot that forces a collision. And theres a lot of cases where experienced pilots can recognize things like a collision path ahead of time and maneuver to avoid it which is then taken advantage of as Skyrock alluded to.
A lack of chivalry I think we've all grown to expect, but it's the ever increasing desire to get that kill no matter what that tends to annoy me quite often. Losing to a superior pilot in a good fight is frustrating but it's acceptable because you know you can improve/learn from your mistakes and identify what you did wrong and what to do next time. However the situation that SkyRock describes the mistake was simply being there in the first place trying to have a fight.
Some people will say well you shouldn't have been in his gunsites! But IMO it's no different then the saying that someone who's willing to trade their life as an assassin is the most difficult to stop. If a pilot is willing to risk position/Energy/collisions for a low percentage shot with a high percentage of death it's very close to that same type of suicidal behavior. Personally, I don't like a 1:1 KD ratio, but I'm sure if everyone used the same tactics we'd all be much closer to it.
(Note: These thoughts apply mainly to 1v1 fights with roughly similar aircraft. If you're in a 190A8 fighting a F4U-1A Co-E, I would honestly expect a pilot to take those longer risks because you won't get multiple chances in that matchup.)
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Scary is the day when people start agreeing with SkyRock but I have to concur with his line of thought here. Theres a ton of cases where I run into pilots that are willing to sell-out everything in order to get a guns solution, whether it's a HO, hung out stall shot, or a shot that forces a collision. And theres a lot of cases where experienced pilots can recognize things like a collision path ahead of time and maneuver to avoid it which is then taken advantage of as Skyrock alluded to.
A lack of chivalry I think we've all grown to expect, but it's the ever increasing desire to get that kill no matter what that tends to annoy me quite often. Losing to a superior pilot in a good fight is frustrating but it's acceptable because you know you can improve/learn from your mistakes and identify what you did wrong and what to do next time. However the situation that SkyRock describes the mistake was simply being there in the first place trying to have a fight.
Some people will say well you shouldn't have been in his gunsites! But IMO it's no different then the saying that someone who's willing to trade their life as an assassin is the most difficult to stop. If a pilot is willing to risk position/Energy/collisions for a low percentage shot with a high percentage of death it's very close to that same type of suicidal behavior. Personally, I don't like a 1:1 KD ratio, but I'm sure if everyone used the same tactics we'd all be much closer to it.
(Note: These thoughts apply mainly to 1v1 fights with roughly similar aircraft. If you're in a 190A8 fighting a F4U-1A Co-E, I would honestly expect a pilot to take those longer risks because you won't get multiple chances in that matchup.)
I agree with your "note" and thank you for saying what Iwas trying to say a little better than I said it! :aok
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So, why would "you dogfighters" go on a HO cource at all if you never pull your trigger in such situation?
HO cources are easy to avoid, taking a HO cource is 99,9% times intentional.
If/when I decide to take the HO cource, I surely also let some shots fly at the enemy before I dodge him.
I suppose "you dogfighters" can hardly ever engage bombers, because their guns are often facing your way :D
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Blauk the HO acm is one of the best entries to a bunch of other good acm. Most common example would be duel merges where both guys try and work into the best position, post-immelmans.
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It is ok for a DA cold merge, but IMNSHO a cold HO is a verrrry bad move and pure stupidity at any other arena.
I dont think HO has anything to do with ACM
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We dogfighters, do not think shooting on the HO is very fun. Matter of factly, many of us think of it as very lame, boring, and cheapish!
Anyone in the game that is worth the salt on their balls knows how to avoid the Head On shot and turn it against the oppoenent. Then there are those peeps who think they are some sort of dogfighterZ with skillZ
who do nothing but sit in the tower after getting their aZZeZ handed to them and complain about it :rolleyes:
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So, why would "you dogfighters" go on a HO cource at all if you never pull your trigger in such situation?
HO cources are easy to avoid, taking a HO cource is 99,9% times intentional.
If/when I decide to take the HO cource, I surely also let some shots fly at the enemy before I dodge him.
I suppose "you dogfighters" can hardly ever engage bombers, because their guns are often facing your way :D
The shortest distance between two points... merging... after a rope... and all the times when your maneuver crosses your nose over the enemy plane. Just because your pipper is pointed towards the target doesn't mean you have a high percentage of hitting and it certainly doesn't mean you have a high percentage of avoiding being hit if you're not behind the 3/9 line.
The point being made is there are plenty of pilots out there that only care about having a target in their sights (point & shoot) without regard to the situation it leaves them in, such as running into another plane, stalling out or out of position for dealing with the next maneuver. It's usually plainly obvious to experienced pilots when a target is intent of merely pointing their nose and shooting. Your orientation at that point is largely irrelevant to the prevailing attitude of your enemy. Their mind is set on shooting at whatever you provide them not having a dogfight. This can be reinforced as in SkyRock's scenario after the merge where the enemy will maneuver again for ill-advised or dangerous shots leading to collisions/stalls etc.
Simply maneuvering for better shots does several things:
1) Leads to a better fight
2) Gives a higher percentage of getting hits
3) Saves ammo
4) Increases survivability
5) ACM education
I don't doubt that people get kills in the above manner, but rarely have I seen anyone actually use it to great effect beyond a 50/50 chance of win/lose.
(Mossie is exempt from this too, if I'm in the mossie I will shoot you from 1K+ at any orientation, those guns are evil ;))
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A HO is a HO ofcourse ofcourse, unless that HO is Mr. BPARKER ofcourse.
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It is ok for a DA cold merge, but IMNSHO a cold HO is a verrrry bad move and pure stupidity at any other arena.
I dont think HO has anything to do with ACM
You're wrong..
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You're wrong..
..because... ? ;)
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Because there's nothing stupid about ignoring a cheap easy shot when you can let the fight go on to something better. You're wrong because a lot of players do it in the MA. I'm pretty sure I've seen it in events too.
It's also one of the best places to be for a reverse.. It's one of the shortest points to get to someone's six from.
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I think we need a professionals input on Hos.... someone get Eliot Spitzer on the phone.
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Who's worked up? Can people not discuss a topic without punks like you coming in here and calling them whiners? I haven't seen a whine in this thread yet. Did you stop to think that maybe some play this game to fight, and not to just randomly fly around shooting people in the face like it was some nintendo game? Why must you come in this thread and "attempt" to act like you hold a more mature perception of this game than others? :rolleyes:
Sit down!
Punk? LOL....From a guy who continually acts like an internet tough guy, calling me names...LOL, classic. Based on your actions in this game, YES I am way more mature than you. But that's a whole other topic and not relevant at this time. :) Never said this thread was a whine? or the poster was whining, or anyone in this thread was. I'm talking about while in the game whining when they die. I can't view the pics at work, I was basing my reply on his text. The way I read it, I was assuming the guy he killed stated to him he HO'd him. and his pics (if I could view them) shows he didn't. My statement just says I can understand being frustrated at some flying technics of some in the game, but i am not going to get worked up by it. And don't understand why some others do. Anyway I don't have time to explain my post word for word for you, apperantly your mind read it differently than I intended. If AKAK post was not to show some guy that was whining to him about Hoing him and he is showing it wasn't a HO. Then I stand corrected, and learned that next time I will view the pics along with the text he wrote, pryor to posting a reply.
Have a nice day mark :rolleyes:
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Because there's nothing stupid about ignoring a cheap easy shot when you can let the fight go on to something better. You're wrong because a lot of players do it in the MA. I'm pretty sure I've seen it in events too.
It's also one of the best places to be for a reverse.. It's one of the shortest points to get to someone's six from.
Uh oh... well, each to his own :)
But if I see someone coming straight at me and I decide not to dodge or evade before coming to shooting distance, I, for sure, never expect the other guy to come in cold. If he points his guns at me I ALWAYS expect him to shoot.
I would feel very silly and embarrassed if I was shot down "because I didnt think he would open fire".
That "something better" pilot s**t is always better taken to DA, where it is more appreciated. For some all those fancy moves hey can show is what they play for, for others the fancy moves are used only when they have put themselves into a position where they are required.
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Repeat after me..."it's only a game, it's only a game, it's only a game..to those that think otherwise..tsk, tsk, shame on y'all. :D
Rule #1. If ya have a shot..take it
Rule #2 Goto rule # 1
dentin ;)
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I think we need a professionals input on Hos.... someone get Eliot Spitzer on the phone.
haha, good one
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I try to avoid the HO in the MA. I do this because I don't want to a faceful of 'vitural' lead and I don't want to collide and have the fight end there. That being said, I will take the HO if the situation presents itself. I hate them and will blurt out on 200 when someone clearly took the HO when they could have maneuvered for something else. They usually end in collisions or two wrecked planes. However, there are times I will take them:
A) If it is a furball and the HO is the resolution I have
B) If outnumbered and the HO is the resolution I have
C) If the enemy a/c is maneuvering for the HO shot and no time to evade
D) If I try to evade, but I see he is still going to get a HO shot
I am not an elite "Dogfighter". I am improving and always looking to improve, but I guess I am just not at that uber level yet where I can sit on the mountain and tell everyone else how they are doing it wrong. I have had a lot of success in my ACM lately and for that I am thankful. However, I think a HO, cheap or not, is not as much a part of ACM or 'newbness' as it is a guns resolution situation. People take it, not by accident, but because the want it. I have had vets take it and the two-weekers alike. The time I think it is exceptionally dweebish is when the guy starts at like 3K out and maintains that steady HO orientation all the way in. Kind of like suicide buff in that regard. However, in any other situation, it just is what it is.
When I am out flying, my goal is to kill the other guy and make it back to land. To do that I will proudly and without hesitation take the shot I have. If all I am going to get is the other pilots face, then so be it. I try to avoid it, but there are just times you can't.
Your sense of nobility may vary...
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....From a guy who continually acts like an internet tough guy, calling me names...
I am an internet tough guy! :aok
YES I am way more mature than you.
Negative! Not that I strive to be "mature" playing shoot'em up cartoon airplanes. :rolleyes:
Have a nice day mark :rolleyes:
U 2 :rolleyes:
:rock
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Blauk and Dentin.. It is a game, and I'd rather have fun than not. Doing the same fights over and over is boring, not fun. Not taking advantage of an opportunity for an even, drawn out fight is what's stupid in my point of view, because those opportunities are dwarved by the retarded acm, ganging hordes, etc.
Saying good fights like those are exageratedly "fancy" is like saying eloquence is ghey, lol-speak better. Anything more than ultra-timid BNZ could be said to be "fancy", cause that's all you need for a kill.
And I do get shot down every now and then in HOs like that, where I mistake a HO for a cold merge.. It's alright, it's worth the risk. I certainly wouldn't "feel embarassed", since like Dentin said "it's just a game".
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Impossible title.
A HO is always a HO. If the situation is not a HO then it is not a HO.
No-one ever gets HO'ed, they HO themselves... both pilots have to HO to make it a HO.
Nothing bad in HO, one only risks it all. It is like "all in" in Texas hold'em. It is like a wild west shoot-out..... would one whine about HO there: "You dweeb, why did you shoot face to face, why didn't you sneak around and shoot me in the back?" :devil
I sometimes HO, even though my goal is to land kills. Sometimes the situation simply leads to HO.
Everyone, quit finally whining about HO:s :rock
Ah! So many Ho's!
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I won't say any names, but I was fighting a 38 the other day in a 38. Cold merge, he saved all his E and went for the double, I angled and reacted, we met at the top of the second. I could see that we were going to collide nose to nose, even though he was about 80 feet above me as he came over the top before I did, as I had saved my last bit of E to pass and fall over him as he went by. But, our paths were bringing us to a nose to nose collision. So, I nosed down a bit so we wouldn't collide, and he shot the smack out of me from about 20 feet above me into my canopy and right wing. Immediately, he said he had a nice canopy shot. Now, so if someone is constantly pushing(the get around before he does and shoot front quarter first) type of fight, then they have parts of their acm that need work. I fight great sticks everyday and many are my friends, there has never been a fight between that group, where a HO/high deflection shot, had to be taken for someone to win. Most all end in someone getting shot from dead six. No matter if the pilots are of equal skill, eventually, a 6 shot will be gained(or a shot that is from behind the 3/9) if they fight long enough. Now I understand that in the MA sometimes you need to kill the guy quick, but there is a "breed" of pilot out there that thinks (in their own mind), that getting around quick is something that they only know. They are nervous and trigger happy and instead of getting a truly great experience out of completely owning and outflying the other guy, they would just settle on some (toenail hair front quarter high deflection) shot and argue about it not being a HO. :rolleyes:
This smells of an ACK-ACK SMACK. Maybe we can see this deteriorate to another meet you in the DA thread. I am waiting with great anticipation.
Spazz
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Blauk and Dentin.. It is a game, and I'd rather have fun than not.
I certainly wouldn't "feel embarassed", since like Dentin said "it's just a game".
I bet we all rather have fun than not, but everyone's fun is different. It is of no use to whine and accuse others of them ruining my fun, but still people keep on whining about HO:s among various other things. The FUN usually depend on one himself, not on others' actions. Maybe some actually have fun by whining, I would not know. I never tune on ch 200.
Like I said previously, my fun comes from landing kills (and from co-operating and communicatin with my countrymen). I don't need fancy fights for that, even though I get them (and trouble) often enough since I usually go after big dar bars.
I am perfectly ok with anyone taking HO:s. I just dont get those who whine abot it. If/when one gets shot down, he should either shut up or give <S>. Whining when shot down is the ultimate defeat.... "crybabies", will all others think of them.
I take HO:s in some situations, but I agree that it is not healthy or sensible in the long run. Those who can think or perform nothing else that HO:s I pity. They'll learn after some time or they'll get bored and leave the game. Either way, they are just a minor suicidal nuisance which is easy to deal with. Either avoid or/and kill them.
With "embarrased" in this context, I would mean "ooops, what a stupid mistake/move/overshot etc. I made.... I'll never do that again.... until next time". Nothing more serious :)
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This smells of an ACK-ACK SMACK. Maybe we can see this deteriorate to another meet you in the DA thread. I am waiting with great anticipation.
Spazz
Nope, wasn't I in the P-38, nice try though.
ack-ack
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This smells of an ACK-ACK SMACK. Maybe we can see this deteriorate to another meet you in the DA thread. I am waiting with great anticipation.
Spazz
Nope, last time I met AKAK was in mid-war my hog gainst his 38, freat E fight, that turned into a stall fight, and I got lucky shot on his way back up and over. Very good fight.
I won't say the person's name because it wouldn't matter either way. I'll put it to you like this, out of 6 fights, he won 3, I won zero. The other 3 was a collision, a Ho, and an snapstall auger otd. The 3 he won were the most boring, e-milking, rope attempt, ending in lame-luftberry fights Ive had, since the last time I fought his last shade! He asked the rules, I called no- Hoing, an otd alt, and he climbed to 5k ......then said oops I'm at 5k, I said I'll climb, then Ho'd me. Too bad I didn't remember right then who it was, I'd have just logged and saved myself the bore!
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Nope, last time I met AKAK was in mid-war my hog gainst his 38, freat E fight, that turned into a stall fight, and I got lucky shot on his way back up and over. Very good fight.
My first AH sortie, I got HOed by Waffle. Second sortie I got HOed by Ack-Ack. But that was 5 years ago.
Last time I met Ack-Ack, it was in mid war, on the deck and we had 4 or 5 very good fights. Never did he go for front quarter shots. I was very surprised (in positive sense). Kudos to him.
I won't say the person's name because it wouldn't matter either way. I'll put it to you like this, out of 6 fights, he won 3, I won zero. The other 3 was a collision, a Ho, and an snapstall auger otd. The 3 he won were the most boring, e-milking, rope attempt, ending in lame-luftberry fights Ive had, since the last time I fought his last shade! He asked the rules, I called no- Hoing, an otd alt, and he climbed to 5k ......then said oops I'm at 5k, I said I'll climb, then Ho'd me. Too bad I didn't remember right then who it was, I'd have just logged and saved myself the bore!
Let me guess, Snozzle...
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Let me guess, Snozzle...
:uhoh ur wicked smaht!
:D
Oh and by the way!! :rock
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when is a HO not a HO?
when you win. :lol
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It takes 2 to HO, so you/me/all of us are just as guilty as the guy or girl who shot us down....so don't whine about just re-up your plane and take a sip of whatever your drinking and rememeber it takes 2!
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:uhoh ur wicked smaht!
:D
Oh and by the way!! :rock
What other names does he go by? Is WindX and Headcheese a couple of them?
ack-ack
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none of them wer ho's
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What other names does he go by? Is WindX and Headcheese a couple of them?
ack-ack
Not whindex.
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It takes 2 to HO, so you/me/all of us are just as guilty as the guy or girl who shot us down....so don't whine about just re-up your plane and take a sip of whatever your drinking and rememeber it takes 2!
In time, you will realize this thinking is incorrect.
It only takes 1 to enter a pure pursuit mode. If the same person decides to attack in front of his opponents 3/9 line, he will enter a HO situation when at close range. It only takes 1 to pull the trigger, not two.
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Two weeks ago, Kamori asked me to "hop over and wing them". I am talking to Kam about this and that, the next thing I know we're talking about how long we've been at this. Then BEARTHUR (Parker) says over vox: "You've been playing for almost 6 years Karaya? I figured you'd be better than you are."
It's absolutely hilarious to see BEARTHUR whine about a HO, while being caught on film HO'ing the first friendly in an La7. Not only that, AKAK's first trigger pull on BEARTHUR is a wicked snapshot. Then enter in Phan who pancakes. :rofl. So already BEARTHUR is "in need of help" by this time. He turns to allow another friendly to get on AKAK's six, but not in time to save his bacon. The spixteen is spraying and flames AKAK, only to stop shooting long enough for AKAK to shoot down BEARTHUR.
You'd expect it coming from someone who ups a single PT boat and spawncamps one sortie in a Tiger. Wait, he did it. Pathetic.
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I would have to agree - Didn't look like HO shot to me, but more of high deflection shot :aok
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It only takes 1 to enter a pure pursuit mode. If the same person decides to attack in front of his opponents 3/9 line, he will enter a HO situation when at close range. It only takes 1 to pull the trigger, not two.
Would you call a 1 oc or 11 oc shot a HO? :confused:
IMHO, HO can only happen from 12 oc with both having a gun solution.
Coming in from the frontal side of the enemy does not necessarily lead into a HO. It happens only if the enemy decides to turn into you and you both decide to remain on that heading until you are at shooting distance.
That would then be a HO regardless of who pulls the triger and who does not. The only reason not to take a shot when you have one would be some previous agreement on a colde merge (at DA), right? What other reason could there be? If one is not going to shoot, why risk going HO in the first place??? :confused:
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i know i'm in for a good fight if we pass by nose to nose and he doesn't shoot. And this 2 to HO idea is bunk.
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It happens only if the enemy decides to turn into you and you both decide to remain on that heading until you are at shooting distance.
C'mon, I'm sure you were in situation when 2 or 3 guys jumped you on the deck, all with more E and better turners. Only thing you can do is evading and turning into them. When so slow and going into them, you can't turn away, you give them belly shot...
It takes only 1 guy to pull the trigger... It's cheap and dirty...
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Im new here, and i really donŽt understand the fuss about "HO"
I aint that new to flying not to realize how dangerous it is to be in front of guns solution.
So howcome you expect to be safe when facing those guns ?
ShouldnŽt you maneuver to avoid guns solutions at all times ?
DA "Gentlemen with white gloves" and all that honory thing is totally different in my opinion, i wellcome that "first merge HO no shots" rule as courtesy to the opponent.
But in the MA if i should die because i got HOŽd i allways blame myself for it, stupid of me to fly into his guns...right ?
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Im new here, and i really donŽt understand the fuss about "HO"
I aint that new to flying not to realize how dangerous it is to be in front of guns solution.
So howcome you expect to be safe when facing those guns ?
ShouldnŽt you maneuver to avoid guns solutions at all times ?
DA "Gentlemen with white gloves" and all that honory thing is totally different in my opinion, i wellcome that "first merge HO no shots" rule as courtesy to the opponent.
But in the MA if i should die because i got HOŽd i allways blame myself for it, stupid of me to fly into his guns...right ?
The issue in this case isn't that it was a HO shot. The issue is, the guy tried to hide the fact that he got clobbered by a beauty of a deflection shot by a better stick, by claiming it was a HO shot.
There are lots of cartoon pilots whose ego's can't accept the fact that they can 'die' unless the other guy did something 'unfair'
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But in the MA if i should die because i got HOŽd i allways blame myself for it, stupid of me to fly into his guns...right ?
Yep, just like it's stupid to cry "HO" when there isn't, especially when you're caught HOing yourself.
ack-ack
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Bungaroo,
you don't back your argument with any facts or reasons. Green won't be red only because you say so. Or maybe it is to you, but to others you make no sense.
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2bighorn,
I dont get what would be cheep and dirty in some belly shot? Where do you think they should shoot me at in that situation? If I get myself to the deck when against 3 faster and more agile planes I have made a stupid mistake and I am already as good as dead.
Or do you mean me shooting at them would be cheap? I should roll over and die without shooting at them? I don't get it :rolleyes:
Yes, it does not require 2 guys to pull a trigger. everyone has a trigger of their own. I honestly don't have a clue what you are trying to say. If I have a shot, I take it. Why on earth shouldn't I???
Are you trying to imply that shooting the enemy is cheap unless you have first tired him out and outmaneuvered him into a position where he cannot escape? You need to thoroughly humiliate them before you finish them? There are only a couple of planes you can use for that kind of fighting. Frankly, I hardly ever fly such planes. I more likely dispise them.
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Im new here, and i really donŽt understand the fuss about "HO"
I aint that new to flying not to realize how dangerous it is to be in front of guns solution.
So howcome you expect to be safe when facing those guns ?
ShouldnŽt you maneuver to avoid guns solutions at all times ?
DA "Gentlemen with white gloves" and all that honory thing is totally different in my opinion, i wellcome that "first merge HO no shots" rule as courtesy to the opponent.
But in the MA if i should die because i got HOŽd i allways blame myself for it, stupid of me to fly into his guns...right ?
I think you hear many of us down the peeps that constantly do it for a couple of reasons. It's lame and gamey. Even if you use the old, "They HO'd in WWII" argument, many of them stopped after the one time they did.......cause they died. People who always go for the HO shot,(and don't be fooled, there is a lot of the community that do) are just being gamey twits! Why continue to go for a shot(that actually puts you at a disadvantage if you miss), when you could maybe, just maybe, learn a manuver to beat the guy in a more dominating fashion, rather than some fairy/luck/BS/twit fashion? :aok
:rock
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I don't get it :rolleyes:
Well, since you're one of those "smart" fliers, it really does not surprise me.
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When/if a "HO whiner" quits whining about HO:s when shot down, he may actually begin learning the moves. Maybe he will then also begin to find avoiding HOs as easy as killing those "constantly HOing types". Until he quit whining, he belongs to the same moderately skilled bunch :p
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Well, since you're one of those "smart" fliers, it really does not surprise me.
If you are as good in avoiding the HOs in game as you are in dodging this debate, you should have no problems :p
It is useless to continue the discussion when there is no logic on the other side :(
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It is useless to continue the discussion when there is no logic on the other side :(
I wasn't here as long as you, but I have learned that HOers will always justify HOs with "it takes two to HO".
Similarly, cherry pickers and horde runners will justify their lack of guts with "smart flying" or with "plane makes me fly that way", or "it's a war".
No matter what you say, it's not always possible to avoid head on situation, especially when outnumbered.
It's a bad form when guys who have every possible advantage, taking cheap shots. It's even worse when HOers complain about being HOed when, clearly, they were not.
And the worse is, when few select vets defend behavior like this.
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I wasn't here as long as you, but I have learned that HOers will always justify HOs with "it takes two to HO".
Similarly, cherry pickers and horde runners will justify their lack of guts with "smart flying" or with "plane makes me fly that way", or "it's a war".
No matter what you say, it's not always possible to avoid head on situation, especially when outnumbered.
It's a bad form when guys who have every possible advantage, taking cheap shots. It's even worse when HOers complain about being HOed when, clearly, they were not.
And the worse is, when few select vets defend behavior like this.
:rock :rock :rock
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I wasn't here as long as you, but I have learned that HOers will always justify HOs with "it takes two to HO".
Similarly, cherry pickers and horde runners will justify their lack of guts with "smart flying" or with "plane makes me fly that way", or "it's a war".
No matter what you say, it's not always possible to avoid head on situation, especially when outnumbered.
It's a bad form when guys who have every possible advantage, taking cheap shots. It's even worse when HOers complain about being HOed when, clearly, they were not.
And the worse is, when few select vets defend behavior like this.
Absolutely, unequivocally, one of the best posts I have ever read on these Boards. <<S>> Bar
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Keep on suffering boys, because the HO will always be here whether you like it or not.
Get over it, and you'll have much more fun :aok
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Keep on suffering boys, because the HO will always be here whether you like it or not.
Get over it, and you'll have much more fun :aok
Of course the HO will always be here, some people will always try to take the path of least resistance but that isn't the point of this thread. It was me poking fun at a whiner whining about something that clearly wasn't while showing the whiner what a hypocrit he is for doing what he was whining about.
ack-ack
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The head on has always mystified me in this simulation. Why do people act as though this NEVER happened in real life? I've watched several episodes of Dogfights where the REAL pilots speak of HO engagements. My view is this, fly straight at me and you'll get 4 20mm and 2 30mm cannon from a fw190a8. I promise.
I've never understood all the screaming about this myself. Not everyone is such a masterfull pilot that they can pass up a shot for one they prefer. So you don't do Head-on, big fappin deal. I'm not here to dance, I'm not here to do some air-ballet to display my skill. I'm here to shoot down the other guy and anytime he gets in front of my guns I WILL FIRE. Yes it happened in the real war. Yes it was farging dangerous and scared the snot out of pilots thus engaged, but they still did it. When you're in it for real, you NEVER pass up a shot unless you know it will get you killed, and even then you might still try it. (jug pilots knew they had that big engine to hide behind, for instance) The object of air combat is to kill the other guy before he kills you. Anything else is just showing off.
I'm sure there are lots of folks who would disagree, you're entitled to your opinion. This is mine. I'm not a great stick (yet). I get shot down a lot. I stay up until I get shot down most of the time. So if I shoot you down on a merge and blow holes in your front window, save the crying for someone else, or come get me back. :D
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*ahem*
I'm SD67 and I used to be a HO dweeb.
I used to take the HO if it was offered but I grew out of it after dying too many times. Nowadays I try to modify my approach so the initial engagement is not a head on merge. Having said that, if I'm left with no other option and I see you inside 500yards in my gunsight I'm going to be pulling that trigger!
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Are you my ho? Am I yours? Why is this topic still whined about or defended? AHII is coded to allow HOs. HT could have elected to code in the "frontal cone bullet shield" like AW had (and bless AW) but he didn't. Has anyone whining about how skilless or unfair or wrong or infuriating HOs are ever once stopped to ask themselves why? :D
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I've never understood all the screaming about this myself. Not everyone is such a masterfull pilot that they can pass up a shot for one they prefer. So you don't do Head-on, big fappin deal. I'm not here to dance, I'm not here to do some air-ballet to display my skill. I'm here to shoot down the other guy and anytime he gets in front of my guns I WILL FIRE. Yes it happened in the real war. Yes it was farging dangerous and scared the snot out of pilots thus engaged, but they still did it. When you're in it for real, you NEVER pass up a shot unless you know it will get you killed, and even then you might still try it. (jug pilots knew they had that big engine to hide behind, for instance) The object of air combat is to kill the other guy before he kills you. Anything else is just showing off.
I'm sure there are lots of folks who would disagree, you're entitled to your opinion. This is mine. I'm not a great stick (yet). I get shot down a lot. I stay up until I get shot down most of the time. So if I shoot you down on a merge and blow holes in your front window, save the crying for someone else, or come get me back. :D
Cee64
What a couple of the guys might trying to point out is that if you continue to take the HO shots you will remain "not a great stick and get shot down a lot" . While you are shooting on the merge (and most likely missing) , your opponent has already gained an unassailable position on your 6. When you begin to realise that taking a HO shot negates your opportunity to perform a position winning lead turn (which is basically the most important maneuver in a 1-1 dogfight) you might then have a chance of becoming a good stick. Try it - and then tell 10 friends ;)
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really classy misspelling of my name up there blauk, really classy. now your points and argument were not read and I don't really care what you said. lemme know when you'd like to be a little more civil.
:huh
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No HO there! :salute no question about it :aok
of course in real life it still would not be a ho cause the whiner would be dead
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Heres the point I have to make. even if he didn't take that shot, you would have pulled right on his 6 and taken iut his tail.
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Cee64
What a couple of the guys might trying to point out is that if you continue to take the HO shots you will remain "not a great stick and get shot down a lot" . While you are shooting on the merge (and most likely missing) , your opponent has already gained an unassailable position on your 6. When you begin to realise that taking a HO shot negates your opportunity to perform a position winning lead turn (which is basically the most important maneuver in a 1-1 dogfight) you might then have a chance of becoming a good stick. Try it - and then tell 10 friends ;)
Surprisingly, I usually get shot from behind by somebody who simply beat me in the merge and got on my six, or someone I never saw in the first place. I'm still learning, and lead turns take a little more judgement than I've learned just yet. I'll get it, never doubt it. Until then though, I'm willing to take a calculated risk. I'm not the guy who typically runs off to land every kill; scoreing isn't that big a deal. I enjoy the combat for itself. Besides, it's not like I'm going to die...
I once heard that the greatest swordsman does not fear the second greatest, him he knows. The greatest swordsman fears the novice who may do something crazy and get lucky. :aok
Thanks for the advice though.