Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yenny on April 21, 2008, 06:40:45 PM
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One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxHN5f3drQI
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or you could use you roll rate advantage and take the fight to him. ;) Might not always win , but probably be a more fun fight for everyone concerned. Duels are a great way of flying you plane to the max and finding out what it can do , rather than just using the tried and proven bnz methods that everyone uses in the MA . Fight/duel moot or agent some time in the german planes, they really push the envelope of their capabilty, it's impressive.
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Very Nice Yenny!!
:salute Thing
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I watched the film ... I didn't see any duel in it at all.
What I saw was a La-7 that wanted to fight and a Fw that didn't really want to 'fight' but rather play the Snore-n-Zoom game.
The tactics used in this film would be fine for the MA, but in the DA ... BORING !!!
If I were in the La-7 and you pulled that stuff on me ... I would have augered and looked for someone who really wanted to 'fight'.
If the poor guy in the La-7 would have played the same as you, then there never would have been a 'fight' or at least not one for 20 minutes or so of grabbing alt and posturing ... not my idea of a 'fight/duel' in the DA. The La-7 lost, I think, only because he was wanting/pushing for the 'fight' ... not so much his lack of flying abilities ... we never really got to see if he had any.
Good Fw pilots, in the DA, like Moot / Urchin / JB22 / TBarone, would have taken the fight to the La-7 and tried to use other D9 advantages to beat the La-7 ... and not take 15 to 20 minutes to do it.
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One thing I don't understand is why people consider fighting in the verticle is not a form of fighting. A challenge is a challenge, not every fighter will use the same TnB. If your opponent decide to take the fight in the verticle then you're gunna quit? Sorry that sounds kinda as boring.That wasn't a BnZ that was a spiral climb. The mistake the LA7 did was trying to follow a D9 in climbing above 10k where the D9 climbs better and is faster.
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The mistake the LA7 did was trying to follow a D9 in climbing above 10k where the D9 climbs better and is faster.
So, this being a duel - what do you suggest the LA should do instead?
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I was flying the LA and the other person was flying the D9 in the previous flight. I kept my LA7 on the deck, dodge a few BnZ from him and then he lost his E and it was just TnB. La7 > D9 in TnB on the deck of course.
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I was flying the LA and the other person was flying the D9 in the previous flight. I kept my LA7 on the deck, dodge a few BnZ from him and then he lost his E and it was just TnB. La7 > D9 in TnB on the deck of course.
So - in this duel - if he was more experienced he should have worked to keep his e until he could bnz a kill?
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I don't know, that was the option I did because I knew above 10k the LA-7 can't keep up w/ the D9. That and the fact that the La7 was 600 yards on the D9's tail on the spiral climbs trying to force the nose up for a shot. So both plane did push its maximum performance.
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One thing I don't understand is why people consider fighting in the verticle is not a form of fighting. A challenge is a challenge, not every fighter will use the same TnB. If your opponent decide to take the fight in the verticle then you're gunna quit? Sorry that sounds kinda as boring.That wasn't a BnZ that was a spiral climb. The mistake the LA7 did was trying to follow a D9 in climbing above 10k where the D9 climbs better and is faster.
Listen ... your the one that said it was a "Duel", and that was the farthest thing from a "Duel" that I have ever seen or experienced.
One can surely fight in the vertical without extending 2+ K away and gain 4+ K in altitude.
On your first merge, you could have gone vert shortly after the merge gained maybe 1-2K in alt .. immel over the top and reassessed the situation safely and if needed, your could have done a double immel. If you were safe, you could have dropped on him for a quick snapshot immediately and if you missed you could have gone vert again and re-setup your next attack ... but extending as far as you did ... climb for a long as you did ... sorry, but that was not a "duel".
As far as I am concerned, the only mistake that the La-7 did was wanting to 'duel' ... and in the spirit of wanting to 'duel' he pursued you. Anyone that has flown/fought with 6 months or more of flight time under their belt would know exactly what you were doing and how silly it was to try and follow you up ... that is why I surmise that the La-7 really wanted to 'duel' ... and you wanted to play Snore-N-Zoom.
I never "quit" when I am in a "fight" ... if we were "dueling" and you pulled that crap ... then I would auger cause it's quite obvious that you really didn't want to "duel" and I wouldn't want to waste anymore time playing the Bore-N-Zoom game when the object was to "duel".
I have been playing for 6+ years now and I have run into many a good Fw pilot, who could have killed 5 guys in the time it took you to kill the one La-7, and what did you really learn about your airplane ... nothing ? ... you already know that it can out climb an La-7 at x-altitude ... but when you get caught with your pants down by an La-7 in the MA, and you can't use that advantage ... not what do you do ? ... die a quick death ? ... stick stir 'till you eyes pop out of your head ?
Had you stuck around and tried to really push that D9 to it's real flight limits, you might have learned something that you didn't already know. That is what "dueling" is really all about ... not noodle measuring.
Winning teaches nothing ... it just reaffirms what you already know ... losing is where you learn ... taking a chance, trying something new is where the real tricks of the trade are learned, and when taking a chance or trying something new is where you most likely die, but it may also show how to live.
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So, this being a duel - what do you suggest the LA should do instead?
If you watch the film, the La-7 reverses immediately after the merge ... because he probably considered that when 'dueling', his opponent would also reverse to re-engage for another merge.
If I were the La-7, in the MA, I would have looked out the rear after the merge and when I saw him extend and climb like he did ... I would have continued a straight flight line and put the nose up to slightly gain alt while maintaining my speed.
Now, by the time he got done extending and climbing, he would have been close to 5K away and had an alt advantage. At this point, the decision is up to him if he wants to pursue the fight.
If he did decide to reverse, I would do a long lazy turn back into him, while he was 4K out, to maintain speed and see what he does at the next merge. If he did the same thing, so would I ... keep speed up ... gain a little in altitude.
What you don't want to do is make drastic turns (lose speed) and gain gobs of altitude (thats the D9 domain) ... If he wants to fight me, he is going to have to bring it down to my best alt ... if he doesn't like that, then he will most likely move on to a target that will play his game.
Now, if he continues his lazy attacks and doesn't really pay attention, he will not notice that the La-7 is getting faster on each merge. If the D9, on any pass, does decide to actually press the attack and goes for a guns solution, he will have to slow down ... why does he have to slow down ? ... because I am doing a lazy turning back into him way before he is 2K out and can very easily spoil any gun solution he may come up with if he is going real fast.
So ... if I can get him to "bite" on a couple of successive passes, I have bled his speed and E, all the while I have pretty much maintained mine. At this point, you have to decide when to pounce and if you were patient and have worked him down ... frustrated him ... when you pounce, he will not expect it and he is now yours. Most likely the D9 will nose down perpendicular to the ground, unload for a power dive, and stick stir his arse off hoping that those 20mm shivaks don't find their target.
Mind you, not all Fw pilots fly like that ... NathBDP / Urchin / JB22 are some of the pilots I know that will press the attack so fast, still using the climbing/vert power of the D9 that the La-7 (or whatever) doesn't have time to set up and force the La-7 to turn so often that it will lose speed and E on each pass,and then finally shoot your eyes out as the La-7 is so floppy that it can't get out of the way ... and it will all happen in less than 45 seconds.
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One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel.
I totally disagree.
The 190 allows more than a few options against an La. While the La does hold a turn advantage, the 190 can use it's roll advantage to change direction much more quickly and keep the fight inside a 2K box, whether thats over 10K where the 190 has an edge or on the deck where the La has the edge.
What you showed is one way of beating an La but in the MA's no smart La pilot would have followed you into a sucker rope like that and I have to agree with Slappy that that was not a duel.
I've fought and beat Spits, Hurris, F4U's, F6F's and many others staying inside the box with the 190A-8. Urchin almost handed me my lunch one day doing so in a 190A-5 against me in a Spit V in the DA.
The only way you'll ever learn to do that is to try it. Sure you're going to die a lot in the beginning but the joy is in mastering your aircraft and taking it to someone who was confident they had found an easy kill.
Maybe you should have named the post "One way to kill an La-7 with a 190". It's certainly and without a doubt not one of "the few".
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Trust me I got shot down by LA-7 many times in 1 vs 1 tnb. I'm not talking about new players LA-7, but good players. Do you really think an La-7 can take a D9 on the deck given both pilots are good? The answer is it's a very slim chance. In MA if you're low and slow in a 190, you're already in a bad position. I fly to my plane's advantage. If I'm in a zeke you'll see me turn like crazy. If I'm in a K-4 I'll go vertical and play rope n dope.
In this instance the La-7 followed the D9 up, so my option was to go up. If the La-7 break if off do a split S and pull up for another HO then another scenario could happen. What I'm trying to show is one of the few method a D9 can take on an La-7 when both merge w/ the same E.
Notice the fight lasted about 2 min from merged. The La-7 and the D9 were within 1k from each other almost the entire time after merge
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well said Slap.
below is a very short film for anyone to comment on. tis complete proof of your above ethos.
Click Me (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/262vstyph.ahf)
Who in thier right mind would even attempt this?
Very few people today, sadly.
We all would enjoy it more if most people left their 'right mind' somewhere else before they logged in to aceshigh.
Yenny, if you enjoyed the fight and so did your buddy then nothing could be wrong with how your flew.
i took the liberty of also uploading a couple of 'BnZ and Rope' films for general viewing.
Tempest Ropes - click me (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/tempropes.ahf)
two very simple ropes demontrate well how an E advantage should be game over for the low one. these are not lucky stalls, we stall ourself and fly with the direct intention of hanging em out to dry and nailing them before they recover.
Tempest Boom and Zoom - click me (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/tempBnZ.ahf)
a longer film showing some 'smart' flying and keeping the advantage. This is real BnZ. gain the energy advantage, sustain the energy advantage and kill absolutely everything in one or two 'passes'.
this did not take much skill and i did not feel very 'smart'. you may find it prudent to fast forward most of the first 10 minutes unless you are not familiar with gunnery and simple BnZ methods.
now, this is the important bit....
Notice what happens at 10:00 minutes into the sortie. we shoot a 109 down and suddenly realise that a p51 and two spitfires have the jump on us. The key is instantly converting from Posstive Energy flying to using Negative Energy advantages in combating these three enemy who are now higher and faster. any hesitation and we are dead right there. Recognise the new threat and react in the same second.
If all i did was fly BnZ in tempests i would have been shot down right there. i use BnZ as an appropriate method for certain situations, not as a strict flying style. I was only flying a tempest that day becuase my old joystick was about to die, as can be seen from the jerky gunnery.
In my opinion, boom and zoom is no more a flying style than a split S. Imagine someone who said, i only ever fly split S. that is what you are essentialy doing when you say 'i only fly BnZ'
bat
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Yenny, if you enjoyed the fight and so did your buddy then nothing could be wrong with how your flew.
i took the liberty of also uploading a couple of 'BnZ and Rope' films for general viewing.
Hehe of course, my bud and I went in DA for about 2 hours duking it out in almost every plane we could think off.
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Trust me I got shot down by LA-7 many times in 1 vs 1 tnb. I'm not talking about new players LA-7, but good players. Do you really think an La-7 can take a D9 on the deck given both pilots are good? The answer is it's a very slim chance. In MA if you're low and slow in a 190, you're already in a bad position. I fly to my plane's advantage. If I'm in a zeke you'll see me turn like crazy. If I'm in a K-4 I'll go vertical and play rope n dope.
In this instance the La-7 followed the D9 up, so my option was to go up. If the La-7 break if off do a split S and pull up for another HO then another scenario could happen. What I'm trying to show is one of the few method a D9 can take on an La-7 when both merge w/ the same E.
Notice the fight lasted about 2 min from merged. The La-7 and the D9 were within 1k from each other almost the entire time after merge
Trust me I got shot down by LA-7 many times in 1 vs 1 tnb. I'm not talking about new players LA-7, but good players.
I don't think so ... there aren't that many 'good' players that fly the La-7 regularly these days due to the 'stigma' of flying said plane. What planes were you flying when you died to the La-7 in a 1 v 1 ?
Do you really think an La-7 can take a D9 on the deck given both pilots are good? The answer is it's a very slim chance.
I don't think so ... On the deck, the La-7 is one of the most deadliest planes out there ... if you know how to fly it.
In MA if you're low and slow in a 190, you're already in a bad position.
Some would probably disagree with you on this ... it's not the best place to be in any plane if your opponent(s) aren't in the same situation.
I fly to my plane's advantage.
But do you know ALL it's advantages and can you fly it to ALL it's advantages ?
I have been flying the F6F almost exclusively for over 6 months now and I still and learning what that badboy can do.
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Listen ... your the one that said it was a "Duel", and that was the farthest thing from a "Duel" that I have ever seen or experienced.
I completely agree. That was a duel like two old ladies at a stoplight are drag racers....
My regards,
Widewing
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i have fought la7 a few times but not in a d9.
i agree that roll rate would have been a more inside the box way of beating it.
now this is a completly different plane but.
i was flying a ki-84 and this guy was in a la7 i had killed one of his buddies and started climbing away when i saw him coming into my rear /left veiw low he was climbing to me 1k out and closing fast. so i figured his energy is high minei s pretty low, im nearly at corner velocity. he's to fast. i started kind of a flat scisors going up at about 25-30 degree angle. and even though he had me dead six to start with i managed to push him all the way out in front. i had flaps out and was shuddering as i broke back right and he passed right infront of me for a beautiful canopy shot.
now when all this was going on i was not thinking. the main thing i was thinking was man hes fast i gota do something. so i started breaking and it worked out that since i was nose high and he was nose high it gave me the advantage of out turning him. of course i was kind of lucky that maybe he was a horrible shot but he never touched me. course the ki is a good turner anyway.
after that i was like oh man i wish i had had film on so i could study exactly what i did and where he screwed up. but all that happened was dependent on his greed for the shot. i could tell he was over eager to kill me.
i dont know how i knew but i also thought that spiral climbing would have been a bad idea there as fast as he was. and if i just started turning he'd maybe break off above me and start bn'z ing on me. i wanted him dead so i could take my plane and cruise home.
was just really happy it worked.
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Well Yenny, using the two examples that you posted here.... if the "duel" was you in the LA against you in the 190, would it still have been a duel? As the pilot who flys his plane to it strenghts, in the LA you would have been buzzing around on the deck waiting for the 190 to burn his E, while as the 190 pilot you would have circled above waiting for the LA to climb the rope to you.
You both would have run out of gas with out ever firring a shot. Doesn't sound like much of a duel.
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Trust me I got shot down by LA-7 many times in 1 vs 1 tnb. I'm not talking about new players LA-7, but good players.
I don't think so ... there aren't that many 'good' players that fly the La-7 regularly these days due to the 'stigma' of flying said plane. What planes were you flying when you died to the La-7 in a 1 v 1 ?
Do you really think an La-7 can take a D9 on the deck given both pilots are good? The answer is it's a very slim chance.
I don't think so ... On the deck, the La-7 is one of the most deadliest planes out there ... if you know how to fly it.
In MA if you're low and slow in a 190, you're already in a bad position.
Some would probably disagree with you on this ... it's not the best place to be in any plane if your opponent(s) aren't in the same situation.
I fly to my plane's advantage.
But do you know ALL it's advantages and can you fly it to ALL it's advantages ?
I have been flying the F6F almost exclusively for over 6 months now and I still and learning what that bad boy can do.
Like I've said "good pilots". Most don't fly the La-7 because of its stigma. However you do occasionally run into really good La-7 pilots that are on air field defensive scramble. The La-7 pilot I went against wasn't the average AH pilot. He knew his stuff, by the time I recorded this we had about an hour and a half of dueling in already in other plane. Which was why I choose the E method on the fight. If it was a regular joe I'd probably TnB on the deck against the La-7.
I don't claim to know a lot about Ace High game mechanic. I've only play the game for about 4 months. ACM yes I'd probably know enough to keep myself out of trouble, but as for how to deploy it in this game I'm not completely sure. I don't know in the back of my head at what speed to deploy which flaps in an F4U-D etc. I mainly fly LW planes only. I "think" I have a basic knowledge of which plane is capable of doing what, but deploying those technique in those plane I probably don't know because I don't fly it. Only having a good gut feeling from my 4 months experience seeing what other planes can do.
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It is everyone's choice how to play the game, wee've all heard that one enouh to know by now.
It just seems logical to alot of us that spending so much time doing something really should be some sort of progress and that doesnt happen without being really bad at something for a while.
next tour yenny i would challenge you into flying nothing but spit9 and never above 5,000ft then you come back and tell us who the dweebs are. :t
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meh =) you won't see me in them ally plane very often.
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what have you got against them?
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I always been a LW fan, so I mainly stick w/ German planes. Once in a great while I'll hope in something else.
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Yenny, I wasn't trying to be harsh with you, just trying to point out that you had other options than the rope. I'm sure you just aren't aware of them because you don't have enough time in the plane (trust me, after only 4 months you can't).
On the deck in a 190 you are just fine as long as you're at or near corner speed. That also gives you enough speed to use a short vertical for a reverse, and if worse comes to worse, I have dropped all three notches of flaps to surprise some guys in far better turning planes.
Sure, I bet you have died trying to t'n'b in a 190 but what did you learn from it besides don't do it? What could you have done? In every fight theres always at least one moment where, had you done something a little differently, the outcome might have been reversed.
What you missed out on in the DA from the way you played it, was the reason to DA in the first place; to learn everything you can about the plane you're in. Everyone knows Dora's are fast and that they are one of the better ropers. Not everyone knows where it's turn limits are, what it's low speed handling is like, how to put it's roll rate to best use, what acm's are effective in it or when to use flaps or rudder among other things. Learning the things others don't know is how you're going to beat them because they probably already know the obvious.
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ok then fly the D9 at 5000ft for a whole tour. :D
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ok then fly the D9 at 5000ft for a whole tour. :D
I bet I'd do better than I have trying to fly Zekes this week :cry
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http://www.mediafire.com/?txyznaztfdb (http://www.mediafire.com/?txyznaztfdb)
There you go. I darn well know it CAN be done. Still don't recommend it if you have ANY other options...extend, find some friendlies, find some ack, pray to your Gods to strike the La7 driver dead (Might work if your dieties are more responsive than mine...) DA/TA is a great place for pushing the envelope and doing all kinds of insane things. (Hey dude, lets do some 190vZeke turnfights...) In the MA however, never, EVER reward some guy for his plane choice and punish yourself for yours by fighting his fight, if you can possibly avoid it.
BTW, the myth of uniformly brainless La7 drivers gets deader every day. I blame the Il2 game series. Or maybe rap music...
Oh, yeah, I've ridden with Yenny abit. I think I'm better as a 1v1 D9 guy and could give him a pointer or two, but he has better wingman tactics (the first step is probably being sociable enough to HAVE a wingman) however, and thats where air combat is really fully developed, in our insane multi-bandit enviroment.
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I watched all of the Batfink films. I've watched alot of his films. I've watched a other films showing similar techniques, though never the same insane gunnery skill. My only comment, and I hope this is not taken disrespectfully, is that alot of the ways he gets kills in uneven matchups depends on 1. An almost inhuman skill at gunnery and 2. A puzzling unwillingness of some MA pilots in much-better turning machines to dump excess airspeed, and saddle up so that their turning ability will actually do some good. These are two things which the average pilot can perhaps not depend on 100% of the time.
Which is to say, if I'm in a D9 and see a Spit16 diving my tail with high closure, the first thing I try to do is put the nose down and try to get the speed up to the point where I turn as well as he does...well in excess of 300mph. If he is still closing rapidly, now is the time when I chop the throttle and use the Dora's @#$%@#% E-bleeding trait to hit a barrel-roll and hopefully put him out in front. It works okay when I need it, but I have never, ever, I think, managed to hit the sucker with my snap shot when he shoots out in front, and I sure the heck don't try to follow a superior-energy spit around in a turnfight very long in the .05 seconds it takes him to realize what he's done and start hauling on the pole and swaping ends.
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D9 vs La7 duel? More like a game of chicken, each one decides who should run first. :devil
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Well, since my name was taken in vain and all...
I watched it. Sure, it was boring. Against anyone armed with even a tenth of a clue, a fight that wasn't that boring would be incredibly short and would end with one dead D-9. Even then, had our intredpid film maker missed his shot, he would have been forced to disengage (or die) because he would no longer have a significant energy advantage over the La-7.
Is it possible to "fight" in a 190? Sure, it is possible. Is it a feasible way to get kills and play without getting horribly frustrated? No, not for me at least.
Moot is an incredible pilot. He (for whatever reason) loves the Ta-152 - a plane that I've always despised. I used to be a pretty good stick, now.. not so much. Even now, you could put Moot in a 152 and me in probably 90% of the planeset and he wouldn't have a shot in hell of killing me except by bore n zoom because the plane simply sucks. And it is the best of the 190s (except for possibly the A-5, which is the one I prefer).
An amazing pilot can only take an awful plane so far. I used to enjoy fighting in the 190A5. When I used to enjoy fighting in it, it could turn something like 25-30% better than it does now (find Widewings post comparing AH1 and AH2 turning circles). The way it is now, the A5 is a flying brick, and it is the most agile of the 190s. You can only give away so many kills to folks before you decide that playing with both arms and a leg taped behind your back is just too much of a handicap.
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Well, since my name was taken in vain and all...
I didn't take your name in vain. I complimented you. Even at your worst your better than the vast majority.
BTW, I'd like to go to the DA with you again sometime if you're up for it.
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No, not you. Was actually referring to Slapshot saying (more or less) "OMG, Urchin et al. could have done waaaaaaay better than that!". It just isn't true.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not going to kill anyone who doesn't make several gross mistakes if I am in a 190 and they are in practically anything, in a 'fair fight'.
I can put up a decent fight, for a bit... but the outcome is never really in doubt.
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Wow Urchin, when a pilot of your reputation says that, makes me feel like I've been wasting my time... :D
I think its okay though, because you can generally find a few pilots willing to make some gross mistakes, and leave the ones who don't far behind.
I would fly my Spit8 instead of the Dora in the MA, but I find the "death by horde" problem I run into in a slower plane is 10 times more annoying than the "miss by virtue of lousy turn radius" problem in the D9
<S>
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No, not you. Was actually referring to Slapshot saying (more or less) "OMG, Urchin et al. could have done waaaaaaay better than that!". It just isn't true.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not going to kill anyone who doesn't make several gross mistakes if I am in a 190 and they are in practically anything, in a 'fair fight'.
I can put up a decent fight, for a bit... but the outcome is never really in doubt.
Well ... you can maybe fool the rest of them ... but I know better ... ;)
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Lame! Let shawk show you some good moves.
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Lame! Let shawk show you some good moves.
I dunno if shawk fly dora ^_^
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Shawk has been flying the d9 for almost 10 years. Its not his main ride today but that can change. Back about 3 years ago shawk made one hell of a run. In one camp he had 186 kills no death no ditches and a very hight kills a hour in the d9.
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Personally, since I fly the 190's a whole lot, I can kill LAs with A8's if you can get him in the right postion. Usualy, you get the typical Lgay that comes in and tries to HO and do a flat turn. what I do, I pull straight up and barrel roll over. usualy I clean shot stright through the cockpit and hes dead.
I did TnB with a LGay in a D9 and that fight too, I acually had it filmed and deleted the file.
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heres me against an LA5 in a D9 on the deck:
http://www.speedyshare.com/229842755.html
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heres me against an LA5 in a D9 on the deck:
http://www.speedyshare.com/229842755.html
Well I guess that film proves your willing to die in a dora :devil
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Well I guess that film proves your willing to die in a dora :devil
I knew that I was going to die fast, the other guy, Cmsutard, has a little experience, by far he was much: faster, had a better climb rate and turn radius. The only thing that I could have done was to use my roll radius and I didn't utilize that at all.
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I knew that I was going to die fast, the other guy, Cmsutard, has a little experience, by far he was much: faster, had a better climb rate and turn radius. The only thing that I could have done was to use my roll radius and I didn't utilize that at all.
Well, you guys were flying from a 5k field. Cmustard was flying an La-5FN which is not faster than the Dora at any altitude. At 6k, you have at least a 15 mph advantage. Climb is nearly equal at 6k, and the Dora is equal or better above 7k.
What you should have done was carry more speed than he could manage into the merge. You were not using WEP to build speed. Use WEP to take off, and leave it on. You could have had nearly 400 mph before the merge. Don't immediately reverse off the merge, but extend about 1.0k to 1.5k and convert into the vertical. Cmustard blew most of his E on the reverse. You would have the advantage of altitude and E, then you can fight your Dora to its strengths. From here on, killing Cmustard would be easy as long as you maintain the tactical advantage. Drag him higher, bleed every bit of E out of his fighter, than drop in and kill it.
If you allow E states to equalize, the La-5FN will eat the Dora for lunch.
It's like that classic complaint and response:
"Hey Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Well then, don't do that!"
My regards,
Widewing
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wow what a waste of time, why even post this film? you hopin someone will say wow your awesome!? unless there is something to be learned from a "dueling film" its just stupid to post it. or are you hoping a real skilled pilot will give you some insight on how to fly the 190? even noobs can bnz. if you extend"run" over 2k in a duel its not really a duel its another boring MA noob thinkin he is good. What were you hopin to gain from posting this borning film? and another thing films belong in films and screenshots section not here.
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wow what a waste of time, why even post this film? you hopin someone will say wow your awesome!? unless there is something to be learned from a "dueling film" its just stupid to post it. or are you hoping a real skilled pilot will give you some insight on how to fly the 190? even noobs can bnz. if you extend"run" over 2k in a duel its not really a duel its another boring MA noob thinkin he is good. What were you hopin to gain from posting this borning film? and another thing films belong in films and screenshots section not here.
Only reason I put it into the training section is because a lot of people like myself actually wants to see how a 190D take an La-7. There are A LOT of people claiming they could outturn an La-7 in a D9, but which I have yet to accomplish. My point for posting it in the training section is just to show another method of taking an La-7 (flown by a good player). I still want to see other D9 taking 1 vs 1 against an La-7 at same E and out turn it like they claim.
There was a discussion about this a while ago in the forum, where some of these high speed aces "claiming" they can take down La-7 and spits in a turn fight w/ a d9. Yet, when some of us "dweeb" ask them how it's done and ask them to film it and show it to us. They said "no you guys find that out for yourself." Which is why I film some of these D9 v. spit and La-7 duels to show other D9 pilots how it could be done.
Keep in mind going against a novice pilot in any plane is easy, but when you're going against a good stick in any plane it would be a tough fight. If you guys keep pushing on talking smack, I'd like to see your film on how it's done D9 v. la-7, spit etc. in a duel vs some good stick and post it. It's easy to talk smack, but gotta post something to back your trash up. Again, I post this vid for reason to help other; not for "hopin someone will say wow your awesome!?" like you said reeb.
And by the way, the fight in this vid never extended beyond 2k, the 1st merge extend was about 1.5k. After that the La-7 was about 600 yards behind the D9 w/ gun ON the D9, but not through the D9 so the La-7 couldn't fire. It wasn't a BnZ, but it was a Spiral climbs more of an E fight then a BnZ.
Well, you guys were flying from a 5k field. Cmustard was flying an La-5FN which is not faster than the Dora at any altitude. At 6k, you have at least a 15 mph advantage. Climb is nearly equal at 6k, and the Dora is equal or better above 7k.
What you should have done was carry more speed than he could manage into the merge. You were not using WEP to build speed. Use WEP to take off, and leave it on. You could have had nearly 400 mph before the merge. Don't immediately reverse off the merge, but extend about 1.0k to 1.5k and convert into the vertical. Cmustard blew most of his E on the reverse. You would have the advantage of altitude and E, then you can fight your Dora to its strengths. From here on, killing Cmustard would be easy as long as you maintain the tactical advantage. Drag him higher, bleed every bit of E out of his fighter, than drop in and kill it.
If you allow E states to equalize, the La-5FN will eat the Dora for lunch.
It's like that classic complaint and response:
"Hey Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Well then, don't do that!"
My regards,
Widewing
This is basically what I did in that fight, it kinda follows what Widewing post.
After the 1st merge I pull my joystick lightly to go verticle, while the LA-7 pulled his stick hardback going vertical and pointing his nose at my plane. When the La-7 did that he bled some of his E which allow my D9 to have a higher E state of the bat. Once we reached 10k, my D9 got the climbing advantage plus the lost of E on the 1st merge, I baited the La-7 into a spiral climbs. As one can see the La-7 always has his gun sight at the D9 from about 600 yards out for about 30 secs as both plane spiral climbs. So I guess the La-7 must have thinking "oh i almost got it just a lil harder on the joystick and he'd be dead." Both plane were doing bout 80 knots nose up within 400-600 yards away. I did the spiral climbs because if I went straight up then the La-7 would have a shot, the spiral climbs prevent the La-7 to put his gun through my plane and make the La-7 think he has the shot so he can remain in the spiral climb.
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Yenny. most of these guys are so long playing the game they completely forgot the thrill of it all. They were the same as you many years ago, eager to show the world their latest great move or kill shot. They dont mean to be such jerks about it, or if they do then they are just jerks :)
admitedly your film was a little on the tedious side. From my perspective i saw someone fly to the best of their ability in a certain aircraft. If that was the best of your ability in the 190D9 vs an La7 then i salute you.
two things are suggested to me by your posting this.
1) You felt this was some of the best 190d flying you can presently do, and thus felt that sharing it would increase your reputation possibly, but certainly make you feel a little proud that you did what you wanted to do and did it better than alot of your other attempts.
2)That you wanted to have a certain gauge of your own ability. To share the film would be sure to generate negative and possitive responses at the same time which would give you an unbiased grade for your efforts. you sure got that!
I think if you had posted something like
"This is my current level of fighting, what could i do better?"
"here is a good example of Boom and Zoom move repeatedly"
or even
"is this considered 'dueling'?"
then you would have got a better response than sayin
"i own this la7, come see"
I know that your intention was to generate interest with a snappy sales pitch that would draw more heads and be a little fun. some people do find it hard to distiguish between tounge in cheek and outright boasting in the ambigous medium of internet text life.
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BnZ:
get in your enemy's head and the rest is easy and i dont mean with smack talking. It may often look like a good stick is just getting lucky or the enemy is making mistake when really the good stick knew exactly what the other was thinking long before the trap was set.
Low 190D9. high niki instantly thinks 'my kill' and 'he will run'
these two thoughts are almost always safe to assume of the niki pilot right now. so knowing this, what will you do?
1) you let him think you are 'his kill' as long as possible before making a move. less time for him to react and correct his aim or think about the coming three seconds ahead of his attack. We know exactly what he is thinking and we also know he has no clue what we are planning. this advantage in the mind is worth far far more than the inequities of the two aircraft.
2)He thinks you will run? that is obviously a good time not to run made even better for every second the enemy thinks you will run before you dont run. Diving away is, as you mentioned, an effective tactic. make them catch the chase bug then go for the overshoot. 99% of the time when a Dora puts its nose down 99% of the pilots fighting it would nose down and put on full wep to keep with the bugger.
once you learn to put yourself in your opponent's possition and assume his thoughts you will always be once step ahead of the con with the advantage.
check the 262 vs typhoon film i posted earlier for a perfect example. typh expects the jet to run, as soon as 262 makes the choice to fight against the typh's most prominant expectations the plane type becomes totaly irrelavent. It becomes a question of who is thinking faster and reacting quicker in the four or five dimensional chess game that dogfighting is.
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Additional Note: alot of this relates to free for all style MA gameplay.
when you fight a duel vs someone else in a cold head on merge it becomes very much less about using advantages against someone or using trickery to gain possition. The brain activity in a 'fair' 1 on 1 fight is monsterous compared to anything teh MA offers that is not a direct equal 1 on 1 that may randomly turn up. In a duel you cannot always rely on your assumptions of what your opponent is thinking.
Equal pilots in the duel outfly each other more often than outsmart or outdweeb them. The polar opposite is true of the main arenas.
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i didnt mean to sound like a jerk but some of us get sick of seeing things like this. to me it looked like your a 1 trick pony and you didnt try anything but climb climb climb cuz the la7 made his turn to fight while you climbed up to avoid the fight. And ive seen alot of people turn fight in a d9 ALOT. If you dont try to do those things you will never learn, Any plane can turn you just have to try todo it or you will never learn it. using tactics like this in the MA are very good tactics but the DA is about pushing your planes to its limits and you didnt come close to doing that. if i say p40 almost everyone will say easy kill but i have alot of films of my p40 out turning fm2's spits, hurris, zekes. i only learned how to win those fights cuz i wasnt afraid to turn with a supiror plane. and this is far from a training vid it shows nothing that is helpful....like i said noobs can bnz so everyone should know how to pull this move off with ease. see what i mean by not being much of a training vid and it dont really belong in this thread...this is why there is a films and screenshots section. also you say you have yet to accomplish out turn fighting an la7 in a d9...your not gonna learn how if you dont try. And if there is an existing thread about this why didnt you just post there? why start another pointless thread? this is another reason alot of new guys threads get ignored. i have nothing agenst you but i found this thread a waste of time and am askin myself why im bothering to post in it. :aok
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:salute Reeb. was not aimed at anyone personal like. i know my words often come out laced with inuendo i assure you i do not hint at things when being serious about stuff. Yenny was asking for this reaction intentionaly or not with his attitude.
what he has accomplished is in drawing many good generous people here to hurl abuse when widely speaking they do not hurl abuse at people ever.
this is the combined strain of two things:
Firstly many of us watching the game we have loved for up to a decade in some cases deteriate before our eyes and the gamepay we relish spasm violently in its dying agony under the boot of invevitable change.
Secondly there is probably no one on the forums who doesnt already play the oldschool method that is listening to our cries of anguish. Yenny is simply a lamb into the ravernous wolf pack that we have become.
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Much respect bat <S> but i was being a jerk sorta.
ok yenny here is a suggestion: next time edit the film to show the highlights of the film and maybe you will get better responses. watch this if you wanna see what i mean
http://www.vimeo.com/781733
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I haven't seen Yenny's film that started this thread, because I can't get the format it is to work. (When I put the new hard drive back in this computer, about all I re-installed was AHII and programs nessecary to run it.) I would like to see the video posted in .ahf format so I can download it. From what you guys were saying, I thought the D9 ran a sector. From his description, it sounds more like the D9 used a spiral climb. Yenny says it was an La7, Widewing says it was in fact an La5, which also changes the dynamics of the thing. Since I haven't seen the film, I can't say.
BTW, noobs CANNOT BnZ. I am abit weary of such statements. They can One Pass, Haul the Arse, although they are likely to auger. OPHA is not BnZ, it is a lack of the knowledge or the opportunity to use true BnZ tactics. Learning to judge energy and use the vertical to fly your plane to a gun solution on a maneuvering plane who has a clue is at least twice as difficult compared to just reducing your throttle and saddling up with an equal or superior turning airplane. The gun solutions you get are 10 times more difficult IMHO. Since, as far as i can tell, most pilots you will find in the MA have no idea how to E-fight their Ponys or Doras, and mostly OPHA, if Yenny's film shows any worthy basic E fighting technique, for educational purposes alone.
Mechanic: Like I said, I watched all the films, including the 262 vrs. the Typh. You have to admit that the film was showed a confluence of amazing skill on the one hand and amazing incompetence on the other. I full well understand the principle that with a 450MPH Niki and a 350 mph D9, for that MOMENT in time, the D9 is the angles fighter...I wonder, does the Niki know he's the E fighter? Having flown e-fighters, I would know that in his place. I always work under the assumption the opponent knows at least as much as I do until proven wrong...they don't hang "noob" signs on the icons or anything you know.
You watch the film I posted of A5vrsLa7 duelling? Relatively new player in my squad. Know how many times he made the same mistakes and let me do that to him? Exactly twice. He is now fairly well proofed against loosing turning fights against 190s. Doesn't take all that much.
I recently watched a film of some fellow bringing down I think it was five enemy fighters in a 109, right? Interesting thing is that 3 of these kills were augers by pilots trying to bnz his 109 in MORE maneuverable fighters...Spits and Corsairs. Anyone of them could easily had the kill with a little throttle control. Once again, there was a confluence of skill and unskill, with a little bit of luck, which leads to an amazing victory, but it falls more under the heading of "sometimes you step in something" good than "this is how you SHOULD be flying your 109 you miserable pudknocker." Now if the 109 had come in with a little alt, patiently maintained his E, and killed all five by hanging them up to dry one by one, that is a tactic which one can reasonably expect to work as advertised under most conditions. Perhaps some of you would have said "boring", but what can I say, I'm a patient man, used to play chess, what is boring to many is fascinating to me. My idea of an "ideal" fight is not the sweaty-palmed heart-thumping thing some mention...it is a fight where I out-think my opponent so well that he never really stands a chance in the first place. That is my goal with all my technical study in this game...perhaps therein lies the difference in attitude.
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I uploaded the *.ahf file of the fight, here it is http://files.filefront.com/190D9vLa7ahf/;10092241;/fileinfo.html
On another note I just spent 250$ getting a Saitek X52 set, and the saitek rudder pedal *cheer*
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you make some excelent points BnZ and valid too. It is the artistic and rapid manipulation of the opponents weakness that defines your progress. you miss one chance in a 3 on 1 and youre going down. progress is not just in making that kill but even moreso in consistency, imo. I will go take a look at your A5 film sounds interesting.
"this is how you SHOULD be flying your 109 you miserable pudknocker."
hehe this made me laugh.
these mistakes made by attackers are often exagerated by how well the defender knows his neg E game.
How about then when it is two very good pilots against a single fighter?
mosquito vs 2 (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/brace_of_190s.ahf)
the same tactics can often look just as effortless when performed correctly on widely celebrated and well known skillfull players.
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Okay, I just watched it, and I've got to wonder what crawled up the butts of the nitpickers posting to this thread.
Yenny engaged the La7 co-alt and with less speed. Despite this, he used the vertical and conserved E while the La7 wasted abit on the merge. Yenny built an E-advantage while never getting more than 2K, away, Hell, I don't think he even got 1.5K from the La7. He then whacked the thing with what constitutes some pretty elite gunnery, as least compared to me. He did this in about 2 mins and 30s seconds from the merge. You guys really get excessively bored in 2 mins and 30seconds? Boy, t.v. must have really done a number on your attention spans.
The only thing questionable aspect of the fight is that the La7 had enough energy to follow the D9 up and make the shot, if he had pushed it. But the La7 driver apparently didn't know that, and winning based on the opponent's mistake is what it's all about.
Widewing, I'm going to have to single you out especially.
This comment in regards to Yenny's film "That was a duel like two old ladies at a stoplight are drag racers...." does not mesh with your advice in this very thread two pages later...
"What you should have done was carry more speed than he could manage into the merge. You were not using WEP to build speed. Use WEP to take off, and leave it on. You could have had nearly 400 mph before the merge. Don't immediately reverse off the merge, but extend about 1.0k to 1.5k and convert into the vertical. Cmustard blew most of his E on the reverse. You would have the advantage of altitude and E, then you can fight your Dora to its strengths. From here on, killing Cmustard would be easy as long as you maintain the tactical advantage. Drag him higher, bleed every bit of E out of his fighter, than drop in and kill it.
If you allow E states to equalize, the La-5FN will eat the Dora for lunch."
So you are lambasting Yenny for attempting to fly his airplane using almost exactly the same strategy you advise someone to use a few posts later, build and keep an E advantage. These are also almost exactly the same tactics you showed me to use in a 190A5 vrs. a Hurri, used to have a nice long film of you showing me how the FW could continuously make passes and take shots while maintaining its E, and rope the Hurri anytime it tried to go nose up to follow, something you are very skilled at...guess those were unmanly wussy tactics to use in a fighter, and I should forget about them though, correct?
This trend towards total rejection of energy fighting is absurd. If we follow it long enough, the Val will eventually become the unbeatable uber-fighter of the game, at least until the Sopwith Camel is introduced... BTW, I would suggest that if we don't want people using spiral climb, it should not be listed as a valid tactic on so many flight sim ACM websites.
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I think a lot of the fight will require exploitation of opponent's mistake. D9 vs. La7, the La-7 out performance the D-9 in almost every way. As for using the D9's advantage, it's very limited. The only thing left to gain the upper hand is hammering the mistake the other pilot make. TnB in this situation would almost be a 90% chance of a lost, so why bother? This is a duel to find who win, not a practice sessions to try and get better in TnB using a D9. With 90% you will lose if you TnB what will it teach ya? don't tnb w/ la-7? There's only so much a pilot can do with his plane against another. Take the plane out of the equation and it will be pilot vs pilot, and the winner will be the pilot that can spot for the opponent's mistake and exploit it.
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the same tactics can often look just as effortless when performed correctly on widely celebrated and well known skillfull players.
Watched it. Don't think the 190 is WingZero's primary plane. Lost his energy trying to follow a better-turning plane around, once he's overshot and trying to angles fight the Mossie, doesn't stand much chance. No disrespect to him, I've done my share of boneheaded things pulling for a kill too hard. No disrespect to you, but if WingZero had been flying his N1K, his reactions might have been more appropriate, and the outcome of the fight different.
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:salute Reeb.
what he has accomplished is in drawing many good generous people here to hurl abuse when widely speaking they do not hurl abuse at people ever.
this is the combined strain of two things:
Firstly many of us watching the game we have loved for up to a decade in some cases deteriate before our eyes and the gamepay we relish spasm violently in its dying agony under the boot of invevitable change.
Secondly there is probably no one on the forums who doesnt already play the oldschool method that is listening to our cries of anguish. Yenny is simply a lamb into the ravernous wolf pack that we have become.
Think Batty has nailed it here.
All new players should be made fly an angle/turnfighter for their first 6 -12 months so they are forced to learn some ACM. It would way improve the average quality of player and fights. They jump in a d9 try to do something interesting in it once - get killed - so quickly assume the correct way to do things is to fly around at 400 mph BNZ'ing and Ho and go.
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progress is not just in making that kill but even moreso in consistency, imo.
No, progress is in consistancy regardless of the plane. Still my biggest problem but I keep working on it.
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yeah, i agree BE. Another progress as you mention is to stop being 'plane dependant' and start thinking about who the other pilot is not what he is in. For me now there are two plane i do not know like the back of my hand. the yaks and the 190s. my only concern between any other aircraft is which has the preferable guns for the job at hand.
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Watched it. Don't think the 190 is WingZero's primary plane. Lost his energy trying to follow a better-turning plane around, once he's overshot and trying to angles fight the Mossie, doesn't stand much chance. No disrespect to him, I've done my share of boneheaded things pulling for a kill too hard. No disrespect to you, but if WingZero had been flying his N1K, his reactions might have been more appropriate, and the outcome of the fight different.
who cares about what wingzero was flying, he just got roped whilst i was trying to rope the A8. Anyone in a D9 and an A8 can beat a co-alt mossy 2 on 1. Do you really think that every time someone displays a small piece of cartoon flying genius through luck or skill that it means the enemy has got to make gross mistakes? the time to react is minimal when the moves are correct.
did you not see the second kill? the very vast majority of players flying something huge like a mosquito would have given up and died when they looked back and saw a 190A8 at 200 yrds. but no, instant reaction and the decision that negative energy is how to win this fight. The split second the con is ID'ed the counter kicks in though instinct. Some times an attacker can do everything in his power correctly and the deffender still comes out on top. One of thse days i hope everyone realises the E does not = life everytime.
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I learnt that little conundrum early when we fought in the DA Bat - never forgotten it. I still make stupid mistakes (dont think I'll ever stop that bit) - but hey, its all fun right :salute
Wurzel
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I flew a 190 last night for , almost, the first time. Its a nice airplane but I have to find a way to set views cause Im so used to Yank, Brit, Russky views. Most of all clean "look up" views. The middle canopy bar gave me problems so I probably have to set it offset cause in fights I have to be able to have a clean forward up view.
It wasnt the D-9, I think it was a D-5. It was during a mission. I really like the airplane tho, it was very responsive and handled speed well. I can see why a lot of guys fly almost entirely German.
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Come on now guy, we both know the Mossie is no B-17 in handling. It retains E, has the guns from hell, and, compared to any 190, is an excellent turner.
In this fight, both 190s, after the Mossie threw them an angle they couldn't handle, they kept pushing it anyway, and inevitably ended up out in front as targets. If they had some energy and used E-fighting, the Mossie might have been inevitiably picked apart, otherwise a Mosquito (like almost every other plane in the game) should pwn a 190 in any kind of angles fight.
And I think most players seeing a 190 at 200 WILL try to pull outside of his gunnery envelope, I don't think most will just let go of the stick and go get a coke at that juncture. :D
Basically, if I didn't know whose films I were watching, I'd see nothing to choose between this film and Yenny's, in terms of piloting genius. In both cases there was some sort of initial disadvantage (Yenny's, plane type he was facing, the Mosquitos, numbers he was facing), there was some misjudgement on the opponent's part, both film makers used the inherent advantages of their aircraft to win, and both films display excellent gunnery. One is supposed to be utter dweebery, the other utter genius...sorry, just don't see it that way.
who cares about what wingzero was flying, he just got roped whilst i was trying to rope the A8. Anyone in a D9 and an A8 can beat a co-alt mossy 2 on 1. Do you really think that every time someone displays a small piece of cartoon flying genius through luck or skill that it means the enemy has got to make gross mistakes? the time to react is minimal when the moves are correct.
did you not see the second kill? the very vast majority of players flying something huge like a mosquito would have given up and died when they looked back and saw a 190A8 at 200 yrds. but no, instant reaction and the decision that negative energy is how to win this fight. The split second the con is ID'ed the counter kicks in though instinct. Some times an attacker can do everything in his power correctly and the deffender still comes out on top. One of thse days i hope everyone realises the E does not = life everytime.
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i didnt mean to sound like a jerk but some of us get sick of seeing things like this. to me it looked like your a 1 trick pony and you didnt try anything but climb climb climb cuz the la7 made his turn to fight while you climbed up to avoid the fight. And ive seen alot of people turn fight in a d9 ALOT. If you dont try to do those things you will never learn, Any plane can turn you just have to try todo it or you will never learn it. using tactics like this in the MA are very good tactics but the DA is about pushing your planes to its limits and you didnt come close to doing that. if i say p40 almost everyone will say easy kill but i have alot of films of my p40 out turning fm2's spits, hurris, zekes. i only learned how to win those fights cuz i wasnt afraid to turn with a supiror plane. and this is far from a training vid it shows nothing that is helpful....like i said noobs can bnz so everyone should know how to pull this move off with ease. see what i mean by not being much of a training vid and it dont really belong in this thread...this is why there is a films and screenshots section. also you say you have yet to accomplish out turn fighting an la7 in a d9...your not gonna learn how if you dont try. And if there is an existing thread about this why didnt you just post there? why start another pointless thread? this is another reason alot of new guys threads get ignored. i have nothing agenst you but i found this thread a waste of time and am askin myself why im bothering to post in it. :aok
I dunno bout you buddy, but when I duel with intent to win I will try any trick in the book to win. When I practice though, I will make mistake etc and not care as long as I learn. As for tnb wise, I've taken 1 vs 3 in TT in a spit16 and down all 3 just fine. However, I was in a spit16 though =), if that was a D9 i was flying i'd probably stick to bnz. Different plane require different approach that's all.
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i bet you would ho in a duel also...even if its specified before hand to have no ho's ive fought your type in the DA many times and they all end up the same....dead :D
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Okay, I just watched it, and I've got to wonder what crawled up the butts of the nitpickers posting to this thread.
Yenny engaged the La7 co-alt and with less speed. Despite this, he used the vertical and conserved E while the La7 wasted abit on the merge. Yenny built an E-advantage while never getting more than 2K, away, Hell, I don't think he even got 1.5K from the La7. He then whacked the thing with what constitutes some pretty elite gunnery, as least compared to me. He did this in about 2 mins and 30s seconds from the merge. You guys really get excessively bored in 2 mins and 30seconds? Boy, t.v. must have really done a number on your attention spans.
The only thing questionable aspect of the fight is that the La7 had enough energy to follow the D9 up and make the shot, if he had pushed it. But the La7 driver apparently didn't know that, and winning based on the opponent's mistake is what it's all about.
Widewing, I'm going to have to single you out especially.
This comment in regards to Yenny's film "That was a duel like two old ladies at a stoplight are drag racers...." does not mesh with your advice in this very thread two pages later...
"What you should have done was carry more speed than he could manage into the merge. You were not using WEP to build speed. Use WEP to take off, and leave it on. You could have had nearly 400 mph before the merge. Don't immediately reverse off the merge, but extend about 1.0k to 1.5k and convert into the vertical. Cmustard blew most of his E on the reverse. You would have the advantage of altitude and E, then you can fight your Dora to its strengths. From here on, killing Cmustard would be easy as long as you maintain the tactical advantage. Drag him higher, bleed every bit of E out of his fighter, than drop in and kill it.
If you allow E states to equalize, the La-5FN will eat the Dora for lunch."
So you are lambasting Yenny for attempting to fly his airplane using almost exactly the same strategy you advise someone to use a few posts later, build and keep an E advantage. These are also almost exactly the same tactics you showed me to use in a 190A5 vrs. a Hurri, used to have a nice long film of you showing me how the FW could continuously make passes and take shots while maintaining its E, and rope the Hurri anytime it tried to go nose up to follow, something you are very skilled at...guess those were unmanly wussy tactics to use in a fighter, and I should forget about them though, correct?
This trend towards total rejection of energy fighting is absurd. If we follow it long enough, the Val will eventually become the unbeatable uber-fighter of the game, at least until the Sopwith Camel is introduced... BTW, I would suggest that if we don't want people using spiral climb, it should not be listed as a valid tactic on so many flight sim ACM websites.
So, how could you tell that the La-7 had more speed than the Dora on a You Tube video?
The big difference between my 190A-5 vs your Hurri IIC and Yenny's fight was that I was engaged, making repeated attacks. "Pin them, bleed them, kill them". Yenny prevailed only because the La-7 elected to try climbing to the 190. Had the La-7 unloaded and accelerated away, he could have reset the fight. I never let you go, I stayed on you all of the time, and I was being leisurely about it. I made 11 attacks in 5 minutes. That's a vast difference compared to Yenny's duel.
What I didn't say to Bosco123 is to stay engaged, keep the other guy defensive. Unlike the Hurricane, the La-7 can light the burners and get some separation if you give it too much leash. Because of that, you need to stay close enough to prevent the La-7 from building E. You do that by constantly making it maneuver by attacking at every opportunity.
Yenny was not aggressive, he was perfectly happy to let the La-7 pilot fly dumb. If the other guy was smarter, he would have reset the fight and forced another merge, and repeated it until Yenny made a mistake or one of them ran out of gas.
Here's the film you mentioned.. http://home.att.net/~historyworld/film46_0000.ahf (http://home.att.net/~historyworld/film46_0000.ahf)
There's little in common with Yenny's duel.
My regards,
Widewing
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i bet you would ho in a duel also...even if its specified before hand to have no ho's ive fought your type in the DA many times and they all end up the same....dead :D
^_^ HOing is too much risk, not a good way to go at it=). I only play for 2 months, and in this campaign I have 1700 kills and 500 sorties in fighters. Sry but I usually don't try to get shot down =). So HOing and messing w/ AAAs are not my game.
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lol BnZ.
I would like to see someone else post a film of a mosquito reversing a same speed 190A8 from this starting possition. i hope the diagram is clear enough. both planes at the start of the trail are going almost exactly the same speed.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/move1.PNG)
you think that just happens because the mosquito is not a b17 or because the 190 is terrible?
even a total newb could kill the mosquito there unles the mossy does enough work quick enough.. my geuss is it would take an inexperienced mosquito flyer more than a week to even be able to fly that tight without flipping and crashing.
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lol BnZ.
I would like to see someone else post a film of a mosquito reversing a same speed 190A8 from this starting possition. i hope the diagram is clear enough. both planes at the start of the trail are going almost exactly the same speed.
(http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/move1.PNG)
you think that just happens because the mosquito is not a b17 or because the 190 is terrible?
even a total newb could kill the mosquito there unles the mossy does enough work quick enough.. my geuss is it would take an inexperienced mosquito flyer more than a week to even be able to fly that tight without flipping and crashing.
I'd love to view any Mossie films you have.
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mosquito vs 2 (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/brace_of_190s.ahf)
here is one from earlier in this thread dave, let me know if you want more.
oh, and turn the voice volume down in AH game menu before watching it, these two goons on range ch are very annoying. :D
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here is one from earlier in this thread dave, let me know if you want more.
oh, and turn the voice colume down in AH game menu before watching it, these two goons on range ch are very annoying.
Saw that one, thanks. I'd love to study as many Mossie films as you have handy.
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ok i will PM you in the next few days.
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Here's another example of using the vertical to pin down another fighter, burn off his E and then kill it. I'm flying an La-5FN, and Optiker is flying an F4U-1D. Optiker is a much better than average F4U stick, but you will rarely see him in the MA. This film begins with the two of us in a right-hand lufbery. The F4U turns much smaller circles than the La-5, but the Lavochkin's much better turn rate overcomes this (note the speed differential between the two aircraft). Optiker abandons the turning contest and breaks out of the lufbery. He open a slight gap, but the La-5 begins to run him down. He executes a climbing break turn. I take a snap shot and go vertical. From there on, the F4U is almost helpless.
The film: http://home.att.net/~historyworld/La-5vsF4U.ahf (http://home.att.net/~historyworld/La-5vsF4U.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
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I appologize Widewing, I did make one mistake, it was not you who criticized Yenny for making a gentle reversal instead of a gut-busting turn on the merge with the La7, thus there is no contradiction there. Though apparently your advise to extend about 1K beyond the merge and reverse in an E conserving manner is seen as lame tactics by some...
As I see it, the La7 would have been doing the D9 a favor by diving away as soon as the D9 zoomed, since the La7 really had enough speed to catch and kill the D9, if only the pilot had known it. The D9 can catch an La7 in a dive, and that would have allowed the D9 to begin working the La7 from the offensive position, OR, climb at leisure to an alt where the Dora outperforms the La7 and see if it tries to come up, his choice.
I could tell the speed because Yenny posted the same film in .ahf format. The La7 was about 10mph faster than the D9 on the approach to the merge. There was no energy advantage to work at the beginning, no real way to immediately go offensive. Yenny's strategy of trying to drag the fight up to an alt where he has the horsepower advantage is reasonable. Truth be told, he didn't really have enough speed to do what he did with the La at that alt, if you look at the relative airspeeds, the La could have watched him, done an E-conserving reversal, followed him up and shot him. What Yenny did basically worked as a bluff, and the La7 didn't call it. That was MY problem with the film, whereas what he did might have worked to build a usable E advantage against a P-51 or Jug, a savvier La pilot would probably have just shot him. But, seeing as how he didn't even hold a speed advantage on the merge, seeing as how the La7 holds most all the cards at that altitude co-e, and seeing as how enough people were ripping on Yenny in the first place, I didn't emphasize that part. It was the La-7's fight to loose, and he screwed up, why don't we rip on THAT guy awhile? (On second thought, lets not, enough of that crap on BBS already.) Yenny did about he could do and suceeded. We don't get to see repeated attacks from him because he killed on the first thing resembling a shot opportunity the other guy gave up. Like I say, if someone is not supposed to even try a climbing spiral, lets remove it from the ACM websites...
One difference between a D9vsLa7 fight and a A5vHurri fight is that an A5 carries a sizeable E advantage over a Hurri if both are just running along co-alt at their top speeds, and also carries a very large advantage in ROC and acceleration which allows very agressive tactics with little chance of the Hurri equalizing E. Plus, if your gunnery is phenomenal enough to practically guarantee hitting the target on every pass, you are not me and are not as worried about what turn the fight takes immediately AFTER you've made your pass, if that makes any sense. Aggression is fine but I know from experience it is also easy to blow every advantage with one pass by diving in at a clumsy angle instead of having abit of patience.
So, how could you tell that the La-7 had more speed than the Dora on a You Tube video?
The big difference between my 190A-5 vs your Hurri IIC and Yenny's fight was that I was engaged, making repeated attacks. "Pin them, bleed them, kill them". Yenny prevailed only because the La-7 elected to try climbing to the 190. Had the La-7 unloaded and accelerated away, he could have reset the fight. I never let you go, I stayed on you all of the time, and I was being leisurely about it. I made 11 attacks in 5 minutes. That's a vast difference compared to Yenny's duel.
What I didn't say to Bosco123 is to stay engaged, keep the other guy defensive. Unlike the Hurricane, the La-7 can light the burners and get some separation if you give it too much leash. Because of that, you need to stay close enough to prevent the La-7 from building E. You do that by constantly making it maneuver by attacking at every opportunity.
Yenny was not aggressive, he was perfectly happy to let the La-7 pilot fly dumb. If the other guy was smarter, he would have reset the fight and forced another merge, and repeated it until Yenny made a mistake or one of them ran out of gas.
Here's the film you mentioned.. http://home.att.net/~historyworld/film46_0000.ahf (http://home.att.net/~historyworld/film46_0000.ahf)
There's little in common with Yenny's duel.
My regards,
Widewing
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The big difference between my 190A-5 vs your Hurri IIC and Yenny's fight was that I was engaged, making repeated attacks. "Pin them, bleed them, kill them". Yenny prevailed only because the La-7 elected to try climbing to the 190. Had the La-7 unloaded and accelerated away, he could have reset the fight. I never let you go, I stayed on you all of the time, and I was being leisurely about it. I made 11 attacks in 5 minutes. That's a vast difference compared to Yenny's duel.
If the La-7 decide to break, drive down and pull back up for a HO passes he could reset the fight. Only if he did it early in the fight. If he did it late then I will come screaming in, and he'd have to break which burn his E while I will zoom back up conserving it. From there on, the La-7 will be on total defensive, as every pass I make he will burn some E.
here is the *.ahf file of the fight http://files.filefront.com/190D9vLa7ahf/;10092241;/fileinfo.html
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I keep reading in this thread how the combatants never got more than 1.5K away from one another. That may be true but when one is dragging the other for two minutes it's not a duel. Dueling means that you REVERSE at 1.5K (give or take .5K) so please don't try to make this sound like you were "fighting in the box". You were'nt. Plain and simple.
Now, what Yenny did is a great tactic in the MA. Yes, It is flying his plane to it's strengths. It was "smart flying". It was not, however, what one expects in a duel. All the vets here seem to agree. He needed to reverse sooner and keep the pressure on to qualify this as a duel.
I'm also still perplexed by the comment "One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel." My guess is that if Yenny spent a little time in the TA with a trainer or in the DA with a vet (Yenny in the La, trainer or vet in the D9) he'd find that there are many other ways for a D9 to take on an La and win.
That said, the La should eat the D9 for lunch given equal pilots, but most pilots aren't equal.
Yenny further claims that had the La not followed him, that he would have b'n'z'd the guy until he lost all his E and died. I'm also guessing that a trainer or a vet would have stripped Yenny of his E doing this relatively quickly (to his demise or until he ran for his life).
I'm still not trying to be harsh, just calling it like I see it.
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I keep reading in this thread how the combatants never got more than 1.5K away from one another. That may be true but when one is dragging the other for two minutes it's not a duel. Dueling means that you REVERSE at 1.5K (give or take .5K) so please don't try to make this sound like you were "fighting in the box". You were'nt. Plain and simple.
Now, what Yenny did is a great tactic in the MA. Yes, It is flying his plane to it's strengths. It was "smart flying". It was not, however, what one expects in a duel. All the vets here seem to agree. He needed to reverse sooner and keep the pressure on to qualify this as a duel.
I'm also still perplexed by the comment "One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel." My guess is that if Yenny spent a little time in the TA with a trainer or in the DA with a vet (Yenny in the La, trainer or vet in the D9) he'd find that there are many other ways for a D9 to take on an La and win.
That said, the La should eat the D9 for lunch given equal pilots, but most pilots aren't equal.
Yenny further claims that had the La not followed him, that he would have b'n'z'd the guy until he lost all his E and died. I'm also guessing that a trainer or a vet would have stripped Yenny of his E doing this relatively quickly (to his demise or until he ran for his life).
I'm still not trying to be harsh, just calling it like I see it.
The point is the La-7 had his gunsight on the D9 for that 2 minute almost. He just didn't have his gunsight through the D9 so he couldn't fire. La-7 was from 400-600 yards from D9. Watch the *.ahf and you'll see it more clearly. It's was just a simple sucker the opponent into thinking he have a shot, then draggin him to where he lost all his E and bag him. If this was La7 v. La7 it woulda be a much different fight, however it's not so ya can't expect it to be like one.
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I'm also still perplexed by the comment "One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel." My guess is that if Yenny spent a little time in the TA with a trainer or in the DA with a vet (Yenny in the La, trainer or vet in the D9) he'd find that there are many other ways for a D9 to take on an La and win.
That said, the La should eat the D9 for lunch given equal pilots, but most pilots aren't equal.
You contradict yourself. Your second statement is correct, your first statement is nearly worthless.
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I keep reading in this thread how the combatants never got more than 1.5K away from one another. That may be true but when one is dragging the other for two minutes it's not a duel. Dueling means that you REVERSE at 1.5K (give or take .5K) so please don't try to make this sound like you were "fighting in the box". You were'nt. Plain and simple.
Now, what Yenny did is a great tactic in the MA. Yes, It is flying his plane to it's strengths. It was "smart flying". It was not, however, what one expects in a duel. All the vets here seem to agree. He needed to reverse sooner and keep the pressure on to qualify this as a duel.
Note the statement in bold. What a silly and utterly arbitrary splitting of hairs. It is a great tactic, but Yenny
shouldn't have used it? Please! It was my impression that this was not some sort of "challenge" duel anyway, but training/exploration of the tactics that were possible. (Hopefully it WASN'T some sort of childish "who's the baddest AHII pilot it in the whole damn town thing...) If we truly want a "duel", that would have needed to be co-alt co-e in the SAME airplane.
A quick reversal would have played into the La's strength, rate and radius of turn. The D9 played to his strength, ROC above a certain alt. I am dismayed by this tendency to consider playing to the E-fighters strengths dweebish, while using simple angles tactics is considered, um, "cooler" or what have you, especially considering that the former is the far more difficult of the two propositions. Extend this trend towards its logical extreme, and you have a situation where the Val becomes the most dominant plane in the game.
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I am dismayed by this tendency to consider playing to the E-fighters strengths dweebish, while using simple angles tactics is considered, um, "cooler" or what have you,
I've been dismayed by the VERY long list of things and tactics that are so vehemently scorned in this game. It's to the point that it seems like better then half of the aircraft are "dweeb rides". Spits... Lalas... Runstangs... etc etc.
In addition, we know that vulching is bad. Tool shedding is bad. Furballers are bad. Picking is bad. HOing is bad. Camping is bad. Astronauts/Alt-Monkies are bad. Lanc-Stukas are bad... Score watchers are bad... Ramming is bad... etc etc.
So apparently, the only "acceptable" way to play AH2 is to fly around until you meet up with another person in an "acceptable" aircraft. Co-alt, of course. Then proceed to fight without any other outside influence.
I've come to the conclusion that I don't really care what any of the so-called "good sticks" or forum warriors think about any of it. I've developed my set of "AH ethics" that I will live by (and die by... a lot...) To do otherwise runs smack dab into the middle of the very paradox that you just pointed out BnZ.
:salute
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I've been dismayed by the VERY long list of things and tactics that are so vehemently scorned in this game. It's to the point that it seems like better then half of the aircraft are "dweeb rides". Spits... Lalas... Runstangs... etc etc.
In addition, we know that vulching is bad. Tool shedding is bad. Furballers are bad. Picking is bad. HOing is bad. Camping is bad. Astronauts/Alt-Monkies are bad. Lanc-Stukas are bad... Score watchers are bad... Ramming is bad... etc etc.
So apparently, the only "acceptable" way to play AH2 is to fly around until you meet up with another person in an "acceptable" aircraft. Co-alt, of course. Then proceed to fight without any other outside influence in a closely prescribed manner from which you may not deviate.
I've come to the conclusion that I don't really care what any of the so-called "good sticks" or forum warriors think about any of it. I've developed my set of "AH ethics" that I will live by (and die by... a lot...) To do otherwise runs smack dab into the middle of the very paradox that you just pointed out BnZ.
:salute
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It was my impression that this was not some sort of "challenge" duel anyway, but training/exploration of the tactics that were possible.
The title of the thread ... D9 v. La7 Duel ... seemed to imply that it was a duel <go figure>.
Once that was called out onto the carpet, it was then changed to a "training/exploration of the tactics that were possible" scenario.
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The title of the thread ... D9 v. La7 Duel ... seemed to imply that it was a duel <go figure>.
Once that was called out onto the carpet, it was then changed to a "training/exploration of the tactics that were possible" scenario.
what is ur definition of a duel slapshot? full out on the deck tnb? because if so zeke > everything else. There are more dimension in acm then just horizontal.
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what is ur definition of a duel slapshot? full out on the deck tnb? because if so zeke > everything else. There are more dimension in acm then just horizontal.
bring your zeke to the DA i will beat it in 10 different planes. you can use an energy manouver in a duel, but it should mean game over or you are just running away upwards.
I am dismayed by this tendency to consider playing to the E-fighters strengths dweebish, while using simple angles tactics is considered, um, "cooler" or what have you.......
There is nothing dweeby about using 'possitive energy advantage' tactics if you can also convert to 'turn fighting' when you need to. Not convert to 'run like herd of gazzel chased by single lioness' tactics. (hey lets all run together then she might only get a few of us, hopefully not me)
..... especially considering that the former is the far more difficult of the two propositions.
Absolute rubbish.
Extend this trend towards its logical extreme, and you have a situation where the Val becomes the most dominant plane in the game.
most ridiculous thing anyone said all day.
'E fighting' and 'turn fighting' are both methods of dogfighting. learning to E fight is very simple. The criteria is gaining and maintaining a constant energy advantage... and that is all it is. If that is all you do in aceshigh you are not learning 'dogfighting' anymore than if you spent every sortie mastering the Split S move.
please dont take offence, but you have lost the plot now. After trying to tell me that the 2 on 1 film i posted is no more than Yenny's marathon BnZ makes you seem fanatical rather than rational. If that was your average BnZ fanatic in teh mosquito i expect they would have wasted 2 seconds wondering if they could outrun the A8 then died or more likely augered.
It is almost a certain conclusion that anyone who can knife fight well has already mastered energy fighting and the boom n zoom move.
There is no real stigma with people E fighting, it just really burns the people who cannot do anything but E fight when it is pointed out to them.
with respect.
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^_^ remember it's the plane and pilot. Good pilot with a below average plane can have a tough time against a novice pilot in a super plane.
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bring your zeke to the DA i will beat it in 10 different planes. you can use an energy manouver in a duel, but it should mean game over or you are just running away upwards.
Under condition as listed, TnB only ^_^ can't go vertical. Which is the assumption of A LOT of you guys have for dueling. Get real though, in a duel once you pass the merge, it's game on. Maybe do your best not to HO after merge, but other then that, it's fair game.
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^_^ remember it's the plane and pilot. Good pilot with a below average plane can have a tough time against a novice pilot in a super plane.
My FM2 has dispelled this myth too many times to count.
My definition of a duel ? ... Two guys in same or different planes that have decided to aggressively fight one another ... YMMV
Aggressively does not equate to only TnB. You can aggressively BnZ.
Yenny ... I am not trying to poke you in the eye. Just trying to broaden your scope/horizons.
Take your Zeke or any plane against Ack-Ack in his P-38 ... co-alt ... co-E. You won't have a chance and it won't take him 5 minutes to dispense you to the tower either. I only mention Ack-Ack because I fly with him alot and he doesn't primarily TnB the P-38, but at the same time, he doesn't bore ya to death either. Batfink can do it all too.
Widewing said it all ... "Pin them, bleed them, kill them" ... far from ... "Put them to sleep, kill them".
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Under condition as listed, TnB only ^_^ can't go vertical. Which is the assumption of A LOT of you guys have for dueling. Get real though, in a duel once you pass the merge, it's game on. Maybe do your best not to HO after merge, but other then that, it's fair game.
please yenny, the hole is so deep if you keep digging any further you going to start some kind of earthquake.
you simply have absolutely no idea what TnB is. TnB is E fighting refined to perfection with no wasted energy on top.
you are new maybe, but not stupid. please do not expect me to believe you think TnB means flat turns on the deck only.
oh lord.
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Um, sorry, no mechanic, you forgot one point. Getting and keeping an e advantage while actually getting a shot in. Which involves constantly deciding how much E to sacrifice/conserve at a given juncture, so you can get the proper position and lead for a shot...sounds an awful lot like convertng instantly to angles tactics doesn't it, albeit for a brief instant. Sure, a 109 can climb away from a Hurri all day long...it is actually shooting the thing with a good pilot inside evading that is the hard part.
You must know you are exagerating the relative ease involved in E fighting vrs turnNburn fighting just abit...
Do you think I have 0 duelling time under my belt? Winning a SpitvSpit is ten times easier than trying to get a good shot in on the same guy in a Spit while flying a FW-190. I can in fact knife-fight a little bit. Ask Lambo or Creton about it sometime. The time I have spent at this is how I am so certain that you can be able to beat a pilot most of the time in a matched-planes t'n'b duel, yet still have a rough time trying to actually get him using E-fighting in a less maneuverable aircraft. I don't know why in the world you would think one has a tougher job in a ride that can pull in behind and saddle the opponent's ride than in one that can't, and must resort to E-tactics to stay behind and get shots.
Apparently you still think I'm confusing energy fighting with making one pass at 500 mph and then running off, which of course anyone CAN actually do, although they tend to make an alarming number of craters.
All this talk of "aggression"...its a tool okay? Its purpose is to kill the opponent. If you have the E-advantage but blow it through too much aggression, that is as bad as loosing the shot through too little. Refering again to Yenny's film, if your eyes are watering from bordeom in 2 1/2 minutes, you must not fish much.
"If that was your average BnZ fanatic in teh mosquito i expect they would have wasted 2 seconds wondering if they could outrun the A8 then died or more likely augered."
You are telling me there are people flying about, who, seeing an airplane decidely inferior in turn rate and radius closing on their six, will get up and go get a coke instead of trying to get out of the way? Good to know, I doubt they are many though. Note I never said dealing with the pair of 190s was easy...your SA, reaction time, and gunnery is enviable. I just think shooting down a co-alt co-e La7 in a D9 below 10K presents an equally thorny ACM problem. Depending on how much the opposition cooperates of course.
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Yenny, watch the La-5 film I posted earlier in the thread. You'll see flat turning on the deck, you'll see energy maneuvering in the vertical. What you won't see is the other guy have time to catch his breath. The other guy was flying a fighter that turns much smaller circles than the La-5. It got him nothing. Why? Because, there are simply ways to counter that advantage (more than counter it).
My regards,
Widewing
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BnZ you are all over the place. i cannot keep up. I fly a mosquito alot i know about E fighting please trust me.
i dont think you understand where i'm coming from at all and i am replying to statements that seem to have no relevance to the next post of yours.
It is clear you feel scorned and your entire AH ethos under attack. read my posts through the thread to you and watch your irrational devotion drive me round in circles no matter what i say. I dont think that is your intention.
The point is, If you are the kind of guy that puts his nose down and runs like hell when it is his time to die just because he has a few kllls to land every single sortie then you will have to deal with being called names for being an internet wuss.
If the odds of the battle are suicidal just imagine the glory of winning and die like a virtual fighter pileit should
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Yenny, watch the La-5 film I posted earlier in the thread. You'll see flat turning on the deck, you'll see energy maneuvering in the vertical. What you won't see is the other guy have time to catch his breath. The other guy was flying a fighter that turns much smaller circles than the La-5. It got him nothing. Why? Because, there are simply ways to counter that advantage (more than counter it).
My regards,
Widewing
Two completely different scenarios Widewing. The La-5 can build up E faster than the F4U, and turn tightly enough that it won't be blown away a circle and a half into an E-bleeding circlejerk. The 190 has no advantage over an La-7. If a D-9 (much less any other 190) tries a one circle 'bleed', the La will simply demolish it. The only real hope a 190 pilot has against an La-7 is that the La-7 pilot is a complete and utter fool who doesn't even have rudimentary knowledge of ACM or even basic knowledge of how to bludgeon a much inferior plane to death.
Let me try to sum this up using a more simple example. Lets say you have two people. Person A is a 25th degree blackbelt in 19 different martial arts, and has in fact kicked God's bellybutton in a 1v1 sparring match. Person B is a short, overweight civilian with no combat training at all.
First scenario - Person A and Person B meet in a 1v1 deathmatch... unarmed... well lit 10x10 room with no furniture and a sealed door as the only exit. Both men are dumped in at the same time, and are fully conscious and ready to fight when the match starts. Who wins?
Second scenario - Same as the first, except the room is 100x100. Who wins now?
Third scenario - Same as the second, except person B has a fully automatic shotgun with a 32 round clip. Who do you think would win this one?
The La-7 is the shotgun... and it makes all the difference.
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I don't feel anything mechanic. I just think you are very wrong on one specific point...that in a dissimilar plane encounter, the guy in the less maneuverable plane trying to apply E fighting tactics against a superior angles fighter has an easier problem to solve. Perhaps if you are the gunnery god...
Since YOU brought it up, people who think words like "bravery, courage, guts, cowardice" apply to a computer game need to get a life. I mean this in the least offensive way possible. I know you have been playing a long time, have alot of skill at this little game...but it still is all pixels, nothing you or I do in it will ever require courage or guts. I'm not a soldier or a policeman, but I do work for a living...making myself roll out of bed in the morning and put on my boots requires a heckuva lot more courage than this game. If there is anyone out there who has lost sight of this fact, please take a long break from this game, for your own mental health.
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he does have an easier problem to solve, nothing will kill him if he simply flies off home at 15k.
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Calm down gentlemen, we're suppose to discuss ACM. Let's cool down on the smashing, no need for it. We seen enough on 200. Let's try to keep it clean here and have a good discussion.
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BnZ -
I think a lot of us who have played the game for a looooong looooong time have passed the point where having a K/D that is impossible to calculate means anything. Does that mean we have more fun than those whose mantra is 'fly to live, F the rest'? Doubt it. Probably most of us have less fun, simply because it is far easier to frustrate someone who enjoys fighting than it is to frustrate someone who only cares about living.
If you pass someone and you both run away, you are satisfied because you got to stay alive. If it happens 9 out of 10 times you see someone, you are still satisfied - after all, you will have plenty of opportunity to gather kills by cherrypicking, vulching, etc. (with 'you' being the general 'you', not you personally BnZ). Every time I see someone in a better plane fly over me without even trying to engage (or worse, set up to make one halfassed pass and run when they realize I'm not AFK), I get a little more frustrated.
I haven't even flown in the MA in about two months - I hang out in the furball lake area of the DA now. I used to try to castigate people for flying timidly, but I've come to the realization that it really doesn't matter. The game has gone past the point of no return as far as "air combat" goes. It will never really be about air combat again, in my opinion. The best shot this game has now is to flesh out the ground game and market it as a true combined arms simulation. Any new player who come into the game expecting to see anything like people fighting it out in the air will be sorely dissapointed, and probably won't stick around. On the other hand, a player who comes in looking for a "war simulation" (where the emphasis is on attacking your 'opponent' where he isn't in a meta-campaign) will be eminently satisfied - provided there exist other arms that are sufficiently fleshed out (armor, artillery.. I think infantry is a bit outside the scope of the engine of this game).
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Urchin, now I'm the one lost. Why reject an opportunity to destroy another airplane when you stand a reasonable chance? I will not lie, I'll take to my heels with like 3 spits on my tail. I'll also shoot anybody who doesn't have friendlies on his tail already, if he never sees me coming, so much the better. I'm not much for the vulching, strafing ground targets is hard, but I've done it. OTOH, I've been known to destroy a few Spits and the like 1v1 in a Dora. I'm just a hack I guess, but I do like to kill things enough to bother with studying the art/technical side of things.
True enough, the MA is no place to find respecters of clean merges or 1v1s and all that good stuff. Maybe thats bad, but what can you do about it? When it comes to the MA, you can either get mad about how people fly or fly to get even-pay back every single dirty trick in kind, with interest, and never give a sucker an even break. (But at the same time, don't whine/rant/fight/name call on 200 or the BBS because luck went against you and you got into corner you couldn't get out of.)
You want fair fights, DA is open 24/7. Hell, I'll go with you sometime if you feel like teaching a hack a trick or two.
(BTW, I don't understand the purpose of that furball lake in the DA...it recreates the ills of the MA so perfectly, starts so many arguements, leads to so much BS on chan1, that I just squelch it most of the time that I'm in there practicing/farting around with the squad...but I digress.)
Mechanic: Ah, quit being so coy now :D, you know what I mean. You know no one ever flew home happy after having to extend-the natural desire is send the so-and-so spinning into the ground in flames!-and that ain't as easy as you are making out, in an E fighter vrs an angles fighter type match. The urge to simply pull hard, put the pipper on the foe, kill now! must be tempered, and it is hard to suppress. Why else do we tell new players to start out with Spits, N1Ks, other rides near the turner end of the spectrum? Because it is the most basic and intuitive way of fighting.
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Two completely different scenarios Widewing.
I know, I wasn't intending for La-5 fight to be an example for flying the 190. It was meant to demonstrate that you can integrate angles and E fighting to get the desired result.
I spent four hours flying with Yenny tonight, and he impressed me. He's been playing for just 2 months and he's already better than 95% of the player base. Given 6 months, he'll be in the top tier. We worked on maneuver fighting, flying Spits, P-38s, F6Fs, Ki-84s, FM-2 and several others.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm also still perplexed by the comment "One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel." My guess is that if Yenny spent a little time in the TA with a trainer or in the DA with a vet (Yenny in the La, trainer or vet in the D9) he'd find that there are many other ways for a D9 to take on an La and win.
That said, the La should eat the D9 for lunch given equal pilots, but most pilots aren't equal.
You contradict yourself. Your second statement is correct, your first statement is nearly worthless.
No, there is no contradiction.
Yenny had other options. He could have initiated a flat or rolling scissors, a vertical reverse or even dumped flaps and hauled the nose around (worse of the options). I bet that, given the fact that the La followed him into a rope, he would have overshot in three of these four scenarios (probably not the vertical reverse) putting Yenny on the offensive.
I've pulled these in the MA on numerous occasions in an A8 no less, and most of the MA pilots don't even know what's happening until it's too late. Of course, the better ones do.
So, if Yenny went into the TA against Widewing or into the MA against you or Bat (Yenny in the La, you or Widewing in the D9) I don't think he'd have a chance in h***.
You against Widewing in La vs D9? Whoever's in the La wins. See... no contradiction.
Now, what Yenny did is a great tactic in the MA. Yes, It is flying his plane to it's strengths. It was "smart flying". It was not, however, what one expects in a duel.
Note the statement in bold. What a silly and utterly arbitrary splitting of hairs. It is a great tactic, but Yenny
shouldn't have used it? Please!
I'm sorry BnZ but Yenny posted this as a duel. If that's the way he duels then he won't have many takers when he asks someone to the DA. This wasn't a duel... period.
I've been dismayed by the VERY long list of things and tactics that are so vehemently scorned in this game. It's to the point that it seems like better then half of the aircraft are "dweeb rides". Spits... Lalas... Runstangs... etc etc.
I don't think anyone here scorns the way Yenny won his fight. Only in the way that it was portrayed in his initial post.
please do not expect me to believe you think TnB means flat turns on the deck only.
oh lord.
:aok
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Yenny had other options. He could have initiated a flat or rolling scissors, a vertical reverse or even dumped flaps and hauled the nose around (worse of the options). I bet that, given the fact that the La followed him into a rope, he would have overshot in three of these four scenarios (probably not the vertical reverse) putting Yenny on the offensive.
Scissor and do what? all the LA have to do is chop throttle to prevent overshot and saddle in for an easy kill.
So, if Yenny went into the TA against Widewing or into the MA against you or Bat (Yenny in the La, you or Widewing in the D9) I don't think he'd have a chance in h***.
If I was in the La? I don't know about that. I'd think I have a good chance of taking anyone down in La v. D9.
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ok here it is. First off Creton is one of the best sticks in the game.
Fight 1
start was co-E or close enough. it looks like you are slower, but infact Creton is flat out at his merge speed and you have already 'merge' and burnt easily 40mph.
Your merge is unfair. you only do it as you know Creton is too good to shoot.
This is a view from Creton's aircraft as you pull up 200 yrds ahead of the merge.
Creton was fudging his merge by turning prior to passing. A turning merge gives you the advantage of having a turn established and presents an angle advantage as they pass. BnZs foiled it by going nose up before they passed. Perfectly legit when the other guy is already maneuvering. An equal merge is when both have wings level.
Fight 2
You had a large energy advantage that can only be gained by diving from some altitude above the deck. Creton has aprroximately the standard spitfire Vb level flight merge speed on the deck. It is impossible to get a screenshot of 'merge speed' with these two fights as you did the same trick the second time. again, this is a view from Creton's cockpit at this time about 90 yrds before even you have crossed paths..
However, note that Creton's nose is also well above the horizon. BnZ looks like he pulled up first, but he was higher to begin. Both began nosing up at about the same time. No advantage to either pilot's merge this time, as they both began transitioning to the vertical prior to passing.
Again, in the main arena creton has his guns on you now.
Why, is there different physics in the MA? If he can't get guns on him here, how would being in the MA be any different?
look at your speed! and that is after pulling a high G loop from 200 yrds before you even merge with creton. this time he is getting used to your trick merge and acts smartly. But, because you somehow horded a huge ammount of speed before the 'merge' you just about manage to escape. Note that in this screen shot again you have pulled a hih G loop very early, so add between 30-50mph on both counts putting your initial 'merge' speed at around 380mph.
Had you started with even half as much advantage creton would have saddled up and made a shot.
Whose fault is it that Creton carried less speed into the fight? Both pilots had opportunity to build speed. I suspect that BnZ climbed higher. If there was no altitude cap agreed to, I don't see a problem. Creton was pursuing in the vertical with his flaps down, burning E like crazy to go for the shot. He missed... He died. That's the price of blowing every bit of E for a low percentage shot and missing it. All of us have done that on occasion. BnZ was doing 366 mph just before the merge. Creton appeared to rapidly slow about 15 mph (from 313 to 298) just before the merge, apparently hoping that BnZ would pop out in front on the reverse. However, BnZ had much more E than expected, thwarting Creton's plan.
I don't know why you are beating on BnZ, he did a very respectable job in these duels.
My regards,
Widewing