Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: macleod01 on June 07, 2008, 05:27:22 PM
-
Im curious here, and I know you gentlemen and geltleladies are going to be getting annoyed by me asking stupid questions like this, but im would appreciate an answer so I thought Id ask the largest resource I have, and that is AH. So here I go.
Why is the 109F seemingly weaker than the E? I understand that it rolls better and is faster, but it only has the one 20mm with the two 7.95, while the Emil has two 20mms alongside the 7.95's. By my calculations, if your going for a quick kill, its better to take the Emil. Yet the Fritz is a later version? Im confused at this. Why give up killing power for slight speed and roll rate?
Anyone care to be patient enough to answer the question without calling me a Noob? Ive been playing for nearly a year, so I no longer class myself as a newb, but I have a few gaps in my knowledge which I would like to fill in. Your time is much appreciated.
-
They're not the same cannons.
The Bf.109E has the crappy Oerlikon MG/FF 20mm cannon, which has a low muzzle velocity resulting in poor trajectory, and relatively poor hitting power. Also, the MG/FF is limited to 60 rounds per gun due to the fact that it feeds from a drum magazine instead of a belt.
The Bf.109F4, like other later German aircraft, is equipped with the Mauser MG151/20, which has better hitting power and higher muzzle velocity than the MG/FF, as well as feeding from a belt meaning that you can take 200 rounds per gun instead of 60. And that's 200 rounds of more effective, easier to aim ammunition.
Couple that with the fact that the Freidrich is faster, rolls much better, is more aerodynamic (when coupled with the increased weight and engine power this means much better energy retention) and maintains control at higher speeds than the Emil, and the answer is quite clear.
-
ahhhh thanks Motherland. Thats an easy answer to a question I had wondered about. I thought it was going to be something like that, but thought Id ask anyway. Thanks again
-
ahhhh thanks Motherland. Thats an easy answer to a question I had wondered about. I thought it was going to be something like that, but thought Id ask anyway. Thanks again
No problem.
-
With an avatar like yours, Id be worried if you didn't know lol
-
:lol
To go along with your point, Adolf Galland, I believe it was, wasn't happy with the firepower of the new 109F when it arrived. Being a famous ace (and future General der Flieger), he had both (if I remember correctly) a 109F with the double MG/FF wing load out of the 109E and a 109F with 13mm MG131's replacing the 7.92mm MG17's in the cowl (this would become standard starting with the 109G5).
I may be wrong, my memory of this is pretty vague.
-
now thats big firepower lol
-
Imho, the 109F was probably the best 109 to come out of the war... it had enough power for its weight/size and it had plenty of power compared to other aircraft of its time.
In AH, a well flown 109F can be a real handful... but yes, the guns are a little light.
-
the day they removed gondies from the 109f loadout options was a tragic one.
but, yeah, the 109f can rock.
:cry
-
Honestly think gondolas are a waste unless you plan to intercept buffs only, however the 109f gun package is enough to take down 3 b17's without any problems, and if your aim is decent and you fire at 200 or less you can easily get 4-5 kills without a problem.
-
In AH, a well flown 109F can be a real handful... \
Isn't that the truth. Had a 5 minute 1 v 1 fight with Humes in his 109F and me in my 38 today. We ended up with near stalling scissors back and forth and turn fighting all around. 109F in the correct hands will give any plane trouble..
-
Imho, the 109F was probably the best 109 to come out of the war... it had enough power for its weight/size and it had plenty of power compared to other aircraft of its time.
In AH, a well flown 109F can be a real handful... but yes, the guns are a little light.
It's the only 109 I'll fly. It is not only great, folks think "easy kill", it usually has them in the tower.
-
It's a nasty surpise to all Spit & N1K pilots out there that just see the 109 icon and think all they need is to turn... :D
-
Why give up killing power for slight speed and roll rate?
Because hitting power is useless unless you can bring it to bear.
The 109F, by and large, represents the ultimate 'pure' 109 fighter and, while the successful deployment of a single hub 20mm may prove difficult in snapshot situations when compared to two wing-mounted 20mm's, the airplane, itself, will allow you to position yourself in an 'impossible to miss' position with an extra 10 to 15 seconds of patience.
This, of course, ignores the superiority of the 151 (109F4 20mm) over the FF (109E4 20mm).
-
Im curious here, and I know you gentlemen and geltleladies are going to be getting annoyed by me asking stupid questions like this, but im would appreciate an answer so I thought Id ask the largest resource I have, and that is AH. So here I go.
Why is the 109F seemingly weaker than the E? I understand that it rolls better and is faster, but it only has the one 20mm with the two 7.95, while the Emil has two 20mms alongside the 7.95's. By my calculations, if your going for a quick kill, its better to take the Emil. Yet the Fritz is a later version? Im confused at this. Why give up killing power for slight speed and roll rate?
Anyone care to be patient enough to answer the question without calling me a Noob? Ive been playing for nearly a year, so I no longer class myself as a newb, but I have a few gaps in my knowledge which I would like to fill in. Your time is much appreciated.
I wouldn't feel too badly, there were LW officers asking the same question when the F model came out. Basically there were two schools of thought on that. The first school felt like the 1 cannon should be enough to kill a fighter (which is what they were facing in 1940-41), and if you were missing with one cannon, you'd be missing with two. The other school felt like 1x20mm and 2x7.92mm just wasn't enough firepower for the rank and file.
In AH, the MG-FF is such a steaming pile of crap that 2x7.92mm is better than 2x20mm MG-FF and 2x7.92mm because of the weight savings.
-
In AH, the MG-FF is such a steaming pile of crap that 2x7.92mm is better than 2x20mm MG-FF and 2x7.92mm because of the weight savings.
I tried fly 109e a few times and those MG-FF seem like they don't do any damage at all, usually takes more hits in a 109e to take down a plane
then 109f, but your right on a snapshot 109e does have more hitting power so to say.
-
Dang...109F's one helluva bird. Landed six today in one, all A2A kills. Got into a turn fight with a Zeke and won too. I landed with 67 cannon rounds left, no damage.
-
Honestly think gondolas are a waste unless you plan to intercept buffs
you must've never flown a g14 with 20's and Gondies then have you?
still remains the best kept secret. Feels like a G6 on roids. :rock
-
The Bf 109 F-4/R7 had the MG 151/15, not the MG-151/20 gondolas. The hub cannon was the MG 151/20.
-
i prefer the G2
it has slightly more engine power, more external options, and better skins (FAF/MT-201 by Kanttori rules :aok) at the expense of maneuverability, but the difference is hardly noticable
-
I was just going to point out the same thing pannono. The G-2 is much faster and climbs much better (and better acceleration) than the F-4, but is almost as nimble (very close)
One thing that might make folks notice the differences is that it's heavier. So it might mush through a stall more than the F-4 (hypothetically, I'm not sure I notice it much, but pointing out one problem for heavier planes)
-
...but the difference is hardly noticable
I need to disagree. IMO, the differences between the F4 and the G2 are not only noticeable, but significant.
The F4 is just a sweet ride - no other way to say it, really. The G2 is more of a compromise, trading that perfect balance for more top end. While thats all well and good, in the MA, you're still flying a mid-war aircraft and the speed increase over the F4 still doesn't place the G2 amongst the Spit16, 190D, 51D, La7, etc, etc, crowd.
Since most MA fights tend to funnel into a never-ending yank and bank (See:
"109" = think: "Cant turn"), sustained turn performance and stall characteristics are important - both of which favor the F4.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you dont want people to be able to run from you - a problem in both the F4 and G2 - and if you want to E-fight in the vert against late-war A/C packing big HP, the K4 is perfectly adept at both roles while the '43-'44 109G's (to a lesser extent the 14) dont really do anything better than any other aircraft in the set.
-
I think you under-estimate the top speed of the 109G-2...
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109g2&p2=spit8&p3=p38j&p4=n1k2
It's faster than the spit8, the p-38j, the 109g6, the n1k2, up til 10k then keeps pace with them. It's faster than teh F4u1d (except below 1k), the F6F5, the P-47D11, all up til 8k, then really only up at about 12-15k do the f4u and p-47 pull ahead.
It's a MAJOR step up from the 109F-4 in regards to speed. You can't catch much in an F-4. You can catch MOST in a G-2. All save the latest-war super speed demons you will be able to catch, especially considering you have 10 minutes of WEP and they only have 5.
-
If going into a classical furball, I absolutely prefer the F-4. When the combat zone is more "drawn out" (don't know how to explain it better) and/or at an higher altitude, I'd chose the G-2.
-
I think you under-estimate the top speed of the 109G-2... <snip>
I do not.
It's faster than the spit8, the p-38j, the 109g6, the n1k2, <snip> F4u1d <snip> F6F5, the P-47D11...
The only aircraft in that list that I would consider "fast" is the D11... diving at a 45 degree angle.
Again, while an advantage exists over the F4, it still isnt enough to compete with the majority of MA aircraft and, therefore not worth the sacrifices to maneuverability, IMO. Against each aircraft youve listed, I'd take the F4 without hesitation.
-
Hrm... I've just listed over half a dozen of the MOST common MA planes ever used, and shown that the G-2 is faster than all of them, and you still say it's still no good for chasing down planes in the MA?
Fine, whatever.
-
I love the F aswell, only problem i keep having is I get into it with someone, get behind him, get the kill... but never get home.. by the time the fight is over Im low on speed and E and the late ware drag racers are closing it.. I end up dodging LAs and 51s till I run out of gas, only to get mercillesly vulched trying to ditch..
it handles great, has the best view (imo) of any one oh nine, and is probably one of the most satisfying planes to get a kill in.. but its a tough bird to get home when ya get popular.
-
I love the F aswell, only problem i keep having is I get into it with someone, get behind him, get the kill... but never get home.. by the time the fight is over Im low on speed and E and the late ware drag racers are closing it.. I end up dodging LAs and 51s till I run out of gas, only to get mercillesly vulched trying to ditch..
it handles great, has the best view (imo) of any one oh nine, and is probably one of the most satisfying planes to get a kill in.. but its a tough bird to get home when ya get popular.
One word to solve that:
Wingman.
Anything less is asking for it.
-
One word to solve that:
Wingman.
Anything less is asking for it.
one word, Bishop
having a wingman means he will be with your other 4 wingmen, on the deck chasing a spit16.
-
It's the same on every country.
That's why you get someone from your squad who you trust to be your wingman, not someone on country.
-
yea, actually me and Allen86 took up a pair of Fs and started hovering near a enemy airfield at 15k, sure enough 3 cons came up. I think it was a F6F, a b Pony, and I wanna say a K4..
we shot down all 3 in short order as, they immediatly tried to turn fight us. We then decided to RTB, just as we hit our dar ring allen started screaming, sure enough on the map there were red dots where WE were.. we got caught sleeping, the 3 yoyos we nailed earlier had all upped LA7s and chased us down, we couldent make it to base before they caught ups and another brawl ensued.. all 3 immediatly tried to turn fight us AGAIN, 2 were down within 30 seconds and the 3rd ran.. we headed home on fumes, sure enough the 3rd LA came back, blazing tried to vulch us and got chewed by field ack, allen got proxy
that was actually one of if not the first time I flew the F, heck of a first impression it made.. but also it showed the issue of speed, you are just going to have to fight fight fight, egress is usually not an option.
-
Hrm... I've just listed over half a dozen of the MOST common MA planes ever used, and shown that the G-2 is faster than all of them, and you still say it's still no good for chasing down planes in the MA?
Fine, whatever.
And I could list a half dozen airplanes that are faster. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove but please de-bunch your panties.
My statement is opinion. My opinion is that the speed increase of the G2 over the F4 is not worth the maneuverability cost.
You disagree, and thats fine.
For my money, the airplanes that run from my puny little Messerschmitt are 51's, La7's and Typhoons. The F4 cant catch them and the G2 cant catch them.
As such... why would I give up the maneuverability of the F4 when the speed of the G2 nets me zero against those aircraft?
Relative Cost / Benefit? Huge / None.
-
:lol
To go along with your point, Adolf Galland, I believe it was, wasn't happy with the firepower of the new 109F when it arrived. Being a famous ace (and future General der Flieger), he had both (if I remember correctly) a 109F with the double MG/FF wing load out of the 109E and a 109F with 13mm MG131's replacing the 7.92mm MG17's in the cowl (this would become standard starting with the 109G5).
I may be wrong, my memory of this is pretty vague.
I like this Guy, always has a cool and interesting fact about things Luftwaffe.. Kinda as cool as reading the bottom of snapple caps :aok :rock
:salute
-
Ok, since we're on the topic, I can't remember any good reason for why the canopy framing looks so much thicker in the G-2 than in the F-4 of AH. :confused:
-
Ok, I found the answer. The G-series and on had 60mm bullet proof glass on the front windscreen, necessitating the heavier canopy frame.
-
Ok, I found the answer. The G-series and on had 60mm bullet proof glass on the front windscreen, necessitating the heavier canopy frame.
too bad, imo the lost FOV isnt offset by the increased "protection"
-
Even when you're trying to HO a B-17G? :O
-
Even when you're trying to HO a B-17G? :O
I wouldent HO 17s in the G2 either... or anything with a radiator for that matter.
-
or anything with a radiator for that matter.
Oh, I need to start fighting you instead of the 3 P-51's I tangled with (in my radial equipped aircraft) that liked to open up at 1K nose-on.
-
I dont see the usefullness of HOing bombers.. if your in the position to HO, you can easly get into position for a much better shot, i like coming in from high 2-3 diving level with the bombers at 450+ and firing broadside into the formation, aim at the lead and just hold the trigger down.. not an easy shot for them, and you can score hits on all 3 bombers in one pass. ive downed 3 ju88s in a single pass like and in a K4.
-
The HO shot is a very good angle if attacking bombers. The problem is that it puts you in the wrong place after the HO (behind them, heading the other way).
However, if you're at the right angle, it gives you the best chance of killing the pilot or flaming the wing roots/fuselage fuel tanks as they and the cockpit take up almost all of your available targets. meaning you don't hit the tail, the tail gunner, the stabilizers, the flaps, the dorsal gun, any of that. Almost all of your rounds that hit are hitting the areas that are most vital to killing a bomber.
Quite useful, assuming you don't miss.
-
If you want to attack a box of 50 bombers, and especially if they have escort, HO is the way to go. For the arena's occasional box of 3 bombers I agree that a diving-then-level attack from 3 or 9 o'clock is very effective, and it's the way I usually choose to go. Some of our virtual gunners are such good shots that they hit me from whichever angle I choose. :eek: