Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on July 13, 2008, 01:03:12 AM
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what really pisses me off is sensationalism. The media loves sensational words because it attracts the attention of the sheeple that love to repeat them. I just heard zetanine in another thread say "we are in a recession".
A RECESSION IS DEFINED AS TWO CONSECTUTIVE QUARTERS OF NEGATIVE GROWTH.
we have not had that. We are probably going to have that in the near future......HOWEVER IT HASNT HAPPENED YET!
GAWD this pisses me off....this whole sky is falling mentality that some of the sheep of today have!
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Yep...
Let us be confused.
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We may not be in one right now but we are heading quickly towards one. :O The only thing we can do is try and soften the bottom. We can not print (money) our way out of this one. The US is importing more than exporting, this means we are sending money offshore rather than bringing money in. :confused: It is going to happen and the more the Government prints money to save banks the faster and harder the collapse will be.
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If we aren't in a recession then one is right around the corner :O Maybe the boogy man too... How many more huge mortgage companies will fail before this is unstoppable. :confused:
Friday, July 11, 2008
IndyMac Bancorp Is Seized
It's all over for IndyMac. IndyMac Bancorp Is Seized By Federal Regulators.
IndyMac Bancorp Inc. became the second-biggest federally insured financial company to fail today after a run by depositors left the California mortgage lender short on cash.
The Pasadena, California-based bank specialized in so-called Alt-A mortgages, which didn't require borrowers to provide documentation on their incomes. Its home state has been among the hardest hit by foreclosures.
"Given their focus on Alt-A and a heavy concentration in California, they would have suffered meaningful losses in almost any scenario," Brian Horey, president of Aurelian Management LLC in New York, said before the seizure was announced. Aurelian is short-selling IndyMac shares to gain from declines.
IndyMac becomes the largest OTS-regulated savings and loan to fail and second-biggest financial institution to close behind Continental Illinois in 1984, according to the FDIC.
Liar Loans At Heart Of The Matter
Anyone over the FDIC limit at IndyMac can kiss it goodbye. There has been ample warning. Alt-A loans (AKA Liar Loans) and ridiculous lending policies did this company in.
Wachovia (WB) and Washington Mutual (WM) are both heavily at risk over Alt-A . It is debatable either survives. I talked about Alt-A loans recently in Fannie and Freddie Waterfalls Are Too Big to Bail. Inquiring minds will want to take a look.
We are very close to the point where any bank can fail at any time. If you are over the FDIC limit at Wachovia or Washington Mutual (or for that matter anywhere), do something about it immediately if not sooner.
Mike "Mish" Shedlock
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com
It is only going to get worse and where is the money going to come from to bail out these people.... Print it.... drive the dollar down.
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Here is the mother of all bail outs
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/roubini-restructure-fannie-freddie-debt.html (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/roubini-restructure-fannie-freddie-debt.html)
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The US is importing more than exporting, this means we are sending money offshore rather than bringing money in.
Explain this statement? Most developed countries with strong economies run persistent trade deficits. U.S., U.K., Australia--all run trade deficits, and last I looked, those economies were among the strongest in the world.
Do a Google search for Monetarism...
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what really pisses me off is sensationalism. The media loves sensational words because it attracts the attention of the sheeple that love to repeat them. I just heard zetanine in another thread say "we are in a recession".
A RECESSION IS DEFINED AS TWO CONSECTUTIVE QUARTERS OF NEGATIVE GROWTH.
Spot on sir.
I've been saying this exact thing for many months now.
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Explain this statement? Most developed countries with strong economies run persistent trade deficits. U.S., U.K., Australia--all run trade deficits, and last I looked, those economies were among the strongest in the world.
Do a Google search for Monetarism...
You can't just look at one factor and claim it means we have a strong economy. If you can't look at all the crap that is going on and understand our country economy is in trouble then you have some serious blinders on.
The dollar is at and all time low
We have a record Trade Deficit
We have a record National Debit
High paying Jobs are on a decline
We have mortgage companies and banks who have failed or are close to failing.
We have a nation wide house market that has plummeted in most places.
Add those all together and our economy has a very grim outlook.
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Here is an opinion..............
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/07/12/international-forecaster-the-meltdown-is-a-lock/
Seems to be saying we were set up for it?
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That would not surprise me in the least.
Who would be enemy#1 if a new world war should erupt?
Who has systematically taken the bulk of your manufacturing capacity away from you and made you dependant upon them?
How confident are you that you could recover that base quickly enough to prevent them from gaining a massive advantage over you if the worst happened?
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A RECESSION IS DEFINED AS TWO CONSECTUTIVE QUARTERS OF NEGATIVE GROWTH.
Not by economists. That's an overly simplified definition.
The National Bureau of Economic Research determines when recession occur. They define a recession as a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales. A recession begins just after the economy reaches a peak of activity and ends as the economy reaches its trough. In other words, they only determine recessions retrospectively.
Most official recessions have had two or more quarters of declining real GDP, but not all of them. That's because they use more indicators than just GDP and they consider the depth of the downturn, not just the duration.
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Just spent $20 at grocery store to buy what used to cost about $12 not long ago. OK, we're not in a recession.
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I plan on snapping up some very cheap real estate stocks and property within a year or so.
It's all good as long as there are no negative consequences for me personally.
Boy...now I'm starting to sound a bit like lazs.
;)
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sheesh.. you guys love to drive yourselves into depression around here don't you? The news gleefully predicts a new disaster every week or so and you eat it up.. the end is nigh!
buncha buffoons. What is so attractive to you guys about getting yourselves all worked up about this or that disaster?
The sun is gonna explode!
You guys ought to seriously consider not watching the news.
curval.. I think you have me wrong. I simply don't panic about silly crap. Plenty of real stuff happens in our life to worry about without manufacturing it or letting people upset us over nothing. Global warming.. no one knows... so far it is not just lazs who is not hurt.. no one is frigging being hurt.. not even fuzzy little polar bears.. it has been good for everyone.
housing collapse.. no one is losing their home unless they were total idiots or were speculator shysters.
lazs
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So the *joe* sitting in...Germany....watching his life savings getting squandered due to to bunch of buffons who propped up the world economy with false goods is a total idiot or shyster?
You aren't seeing further than your own back yard for consequences, which isn't suprising. In fact it makes my point for me.
:)
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If you bought something for far more than it was worth (as opposed to a home not as nice which you could more easily afford), and signed a payment schedule that was iffy at best, or perhaps bought several properties with 'no money down', like the guy on the infomercials does (DID)...I'm not feelin TOO bad. As for 401k's...you don't look at the short-term, you look at the long term, and every recession ends, and stocks go back up. Mine has lost 11% thisyear, and we won't talk about what happened to my Tyco money in 2001....stuff happens
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what really pisses me off is sensationalism. The media loves sensational words because it attracts the attention of the sheeple that love to repeat them. I just heard zetanine in another thread say "we are in a recession".
A RECESSION IS DEFINED AS TWO CONSECTUTIVE QUARTERS OF NEGATIVE GROWTH.
we have not had that. We are probably going to have that in the near future......HOWEVER IT HASNT HAPPENED YET!
GAWD this pisses me off....this whole sky is falling mentality that some of the sheep of today have!
let's see here...who should I listen to? allen greenspan...........or some cheerleader on an internet bulletin board?
I'd like to tell you that you have a good point.....but you don't. our economy is in the tank...and it's getting worse...
when our biggest financial houses are failing....when real estate is devaluing. ....when an old bell weather company like GM is going under...when the dollar is devaluing at alarming rates....when transportation costs for everything has more than doubled..... when failure has trickled down to local banks that are now failing..... brother....we're in a recession......and headed into a depression if something is not done.
you have it backwards my friend....if anything....news is being withheld....in an effort to avoid loss of confidence and panic...AKA: a public run on our banks, which would cause our Fed Reserve to collapse in ten days....
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What he says has some truth but coming from a Presidential campaign adviser, its stupid.
Economy wise, yep, things are holding their own. The press and speculators love to give anything an evil twinge.
And really, people, do you think the news is about GOOD news? Heard anything about the successes in Iraq? Nope. But if a bombing knocks out a person or two, its headlines.
Same with the economy. Right now if you want to BUY a house, you can pick and chose. Its a buyers market. But if the economy DOES BETTER and home prices go UP, well now people can't afford good homes. I mean really...
The public is too soft in the noggin to appreciate a reality check. The press makes sure we are constantly offended.
HOWEVER, with the average cost of filling up my car costing $70, when it used to be $38, my wallet is hurting. And when hit in the wallet as I am, I'm taking special note of those politicians who will not make the situation better.
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LePaul.... with all due respect, you're one of my fav posters here and usually spot-on...but I can unequivocally tell you....you are wrong on this one.
What he says has some truth but coming from a Presidential campaign adviser, its stupid.
Economy wise, yep, things are holding their own. The press and speculators love to give anything an evil twinge.
And really, people, do you think the news is about GOOD news? Heard anything about the successes in Iraq? Nope. But if a bombing knocks out a person or two, its headlines.
Same with the economy. Right now if you want to BUY a house, you can pick and chose. Its a buyers market. But if the economy DOES BETTER and home prices go UP, well now people can't afford good homes. I mean really...
The public is too soft in the noggin to appreciate a reality check. The press makes sure we are constantly offended.
HOWEVER, with the average cost of filling up my car costing $70, when it used to be $38, my wallet is hurting. And when hit in the wallet as I am, I'm taking special note of those politicians who will not make the situation better.
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Well I appreciate the compliments but let's discuss where you feel I am in error?
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Sure there is over a million home that are in bankrupcy and probably that many more pending. The big picture is the next people to be hurt are holding stock of Insurance companies that insured these bad loans, bank stocks (Banks always make money) :O The stock markets that have any financial stocks are now even where they were in early 2001 - 2002. This has wiped out all the gains made in the last 6+- years. Then the ripple will reach out to the pension funds and keep going. Most people in the know (upper government) moved all their equity out of the US before 2007.
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Most folks, particularly younger folks, live in the here and now. and anythingthat's going on now is the biggest frikking thing that has ever happened (note: Global Warming thread :D) I remember in the late 70's, people were buying cars like gas guzzling '73 Impalas for the simple reason that the used car dealer gave them a tank of gas...imagine buying a car so you might be able to drive for a week, as you couldn't buy gas at any price....prime rate was what...19%? Unemployment was 11%....it's gonna be a good while before before I jump out the window, thank you very much.
(Eagerly awaiting next thread about how this is worse than 1929...)
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As for the "mortgage" crisis....those that were duped by lenders that did illegal things deserve some assistance, like a refi to a lower rate.
But many people didnt do their homework, bought something they could afford today but not later on down the road.
At some point, there has to be a consequence for making a bad decision, especially financial. Be that the lender or those that back up the mortgage...or both. That should give the lenders incentive to help the customer, perhaps offering to lower their rate. If that can't be done, well, that's business.
Like many of you, I'm a homeowner and worked my tail off to get my home. Its super expensive to heat up here with oil now, but I'm budgeting myself so I do not have to rely on others. Expecting the government to swoop in and save someone from a poor decision is not an example we wish to set. What else shall we do? Need help with the car payment? Can't afford a lawn mower? At what point do the handouts end? When will we expect people to buckle down and live within their means?
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when it's all said and done...and we do pull out of it....the downside will be that it will greatly diminish the middle class......and add more people to the ranks of both lower class and upper class. I for one, am taking advantage of the situation now as much as I can...as my hope is to move UP into one of those classes....and not stay static....or worse, fall into the other.
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Just spent $20 at grocery store to buy what used to cost about $12 not long ago. OK, we're not in a recession.
That's actually called inflation.. Inflationary environments do not always equal a recession, though they can help fuel the fire.. Some people think it's getting out of control and Warren Buffet is one of them..
No, we dont have the text book definition of a recession quite yet, but with big banks like IndyMac failing and the financial sector in ruins, and energy prices soaring with no end in sight, the economy will continue to flounder at least for a few more quarters..
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let's see here...who should I listen to? allen greenspan...........or some cheerleader on an internet bulletin board?
I'd like to tell you that you have a good point.....but you don't. our economy is in the tank...and it's getting worse...
when our biggest financial houses are failing....when real estate is devaluing. ....when an old bell weather company like GM is going under...when the dollar is devaluing at alarming rates....when transportation costs for everything has more than doubled..... when failure has trickled down to local banks that are now failing..... brother....we're in a recession......and headed into a depression if something is not done.
you have it backwards my friend....if anything....news is being withheld....in an effort to avoid loss of confidence and panic...AKA: a public run on our banks, which would cause our Fed Reserve to collapse in ten days....
A public run to the banks is exactly why IndyMac had to be shut down so fast. Senator Charles Schumer caused a major bank run after he made commits about it might fail. That caused people to run in and pull their money out causing the bank to collapse. Would it have collapsed anyway? Who knows but there was defiantly a cause and effect that was felt by him publicly stating it might fail.
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Wonder if they'll nail Schumer much like they are going after the guys who started the firestorm that killed Bears
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Wonder if they'll nail Schumer much like they are going after the guys who started the firestorm that killed Bears
Do polititions of either party ever actually pay for the problems the cause.. Not likely.
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Do polititions of either party ever actually pay for the problems the cause.. Not likely.
if it's said on the senate floor........they are exempt form all liability
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Most economists are the same as most "Climate Experts."
They'll give one of two predictions.
1.) Everything's fine.
2.) HOLY diddlyING toejam! WE ARE SO SCREWED! THE SKY IS FALLING. DOGS AND CATS HAVE BEGUN HAVING SEX WITH EACH OTHER. DOGS AND CATS! DOGS! AND! CATS!
Now guess which one of those two gets the research / grant money.
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That caused people to run in and pull their money out causing the bank to collapse.
Wrong. Everyone's money was safely FDIC insured. IndyMac was/is in the middle of legal action, and sitting on a ton of bad loans. There wasn't a run on the bank. It was a regulatory decision made due to IndyMac's poor/unethical business practices.
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Just spent $20 at grocery store to buy what used to cost about $12 not long ago. OK, we're not in a recession.
i captured this last 3 days driving from Tx to Ontario, i don't know if you guys have inflation or depression, but the cost of living in midwest/west south central from Texas,AR,Mo,IL,IN is very low comparing with Canada , Europe,Japan. Billboards advertising new houses from 90K-120k in TX, but i seen same prices all over midwest. You can't buy a new house/townhouse or condo in Ontario for that price range. The price of groceries is also lower in US,: lots of peoples from Windsor are crossing the bridge to Detroit for shoopings.
Canada is #1 exporter of oil to US .....and look at our gas prices, :furious :furious ..
San Antonio ,TX
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/txcase.jpg)
south of Austin,Tx
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/casetx.jpg)
gas price Rockwall ,tx east of Dallas, 3.89$/gal
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/texas2009.jpg)
gas price south of Sikeston,Missouri ( the lowest i seen 3.75/gal)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/texas2027.jpg)
south of Detroit,Mi
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/texas2042.jpg)
what i payed for gas today here in Windsor,Ontario 1.33CAD/L x 3.7 L/G=4.9cad /gal x 0.99 usd/cad=4.87$/gal
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/texas2049.jpg)
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A RECESSION IS DEFINED AS TWO CONSECTUTIVE QUARTERS OF NEGATIVE GROWTH.
We have not even had a single quarter of negative growth........
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We have not even had a single quarter of negative growth........
Yeager wins' a prize for spotting the Oxymoron!
...What was the prize? :confused:
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Hey Ghi, thanks for posting those pics!
BTW, If you were to come to my neck of the woods, you would see gas prices' of $4.49 a gallon, here in the city...$4.99 a gallon at the Chevron out on I-5.
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Hey Ghi, thanks for posting those pics!
BTW, If you were to come to my neck of the woods, you would see gas prices' of $4.49 a gallon, here in the city...$4.99 a gallon at the Chevron out on I-5.
The ONE upside New Jersey has.
Is because we have our own refineries. Our gas is still cheaper then alot of the country.
I can, for the moment get gas for as low as $3.93 a gallon.
While it still sucks at that price. (costs me over $100 a week to fill my work van)
Its still better then $4.49
While home prices are cheaper. whats the job market and pay scale like?
I find that areas with lower costing homes usually have either a poor to mediocre job market. Or a lower pay scale. or both.
While areas with a larger job market and average pay scale to be higher (like NJ).
The cost of homes and damn near everything else is higher as well
The best I could find after a quick search in real estate in NJ for around 110K is a 2 beroom 2 bath condo
As far as homes go though I did find this pristine 2 bedroom gem for 104K
(http://images3.weichert.com/RealEstate/13/36/818636_101_12.jpg)
(http://images3.weichert.com/RealEstate/13/36/818636_301_18.jpg)
(http://images3.weichert.com/RealEstate/13/36/818636_501_22.jpg)
(http://images3.weichert.com/RealEstate/13/36/818636_601_22.jpg)
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While home prices are cheaper. whats the job market and pay scale like?
I find that areas with lower costing homes usually have either a poor to mediocre job market. Or a lower pay scale. or both.
Last fall I did some comparisons with my current locale, Reno NV, versus my home town just outside of Charlotte NC. While the standard of living in Charlotte was 6% lower than Reno, the median home prices were 20-30% lower than Reno, and cost of living was 8% lower than Reno. Charlotte also still boasts an unemployment rate of approx. 3%, and is the only major housing market to see an increase (2%) in new home sales in the 1st quarter 2008. From talking to family back in God's country, I know that fuel prices, while high, are still lower than Reno.
So, in sum, I'd assume that some of those home prices in Texas probably represent a very affordable home, even in a rural home market, with an overall lower standard of living. In the end, you still save money...
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Last fall I did some comparisons with my current locale, Reno NV, versus my home town just outside of Charlotte NC. While the standard of living in Charlotte was 6% lower than Reno, the median home prices were 20-30% lower than Reno, and cost of living was 8% lower than Reno. Charlotte also still boasts an unemployment rate of approx. 3%, and is the only major housing market to see an increase (2%) in new home sales in the 1st quarter 2008. From talking to family back in God's country, I know that fuel prices, while high, are still lower than Reno.
So, in sum, I'd assume that some of those home prices in Texas probably represent a very affordable home, even in a rural home market, with an overall lower standard of living. In the end, you still save money...
but a low unemployment rate doesnt always equal an equal pay rate.
What are the jobs paying in Charlotte Vs that of Reno?
I know when my sister moved from here in NJ to Va. Va had pretty much the same thing you described for Reno/Charlotte only for NJ/Va Richmond area
While it indeed had low unemployment, lower cost property & property taxes and overall cost of living. The pay scale was also considerably lower.
so in the end it was a wash.
NJ residents have one of the highest incomes in the nation. But we also have among the highest everything else including taxes.too LOL
Hell we even have a tax if you want to move out of the state (Exit Tax)
the way I see it. If I can survive here till I am of retirement age. or even untill my house is paid off. I can sell my home pick myself up and move damn near anywhere else. Pay for a decent home outright and live reasonably comfortable with even a mediocre job
this chart is a few years old. But can you get the general idea
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/25/news/economy/income_gap/
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GHI I pay anywhere from $1.45 gasoline to $1.55 per litre for diesel and the oil comes from the west ARG :furious
I also read on comment on another blog that we are not experiancing inflation it is deflation we have. :aok
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but a low unemployment rate doesnt always equal an equal pay rate.
What are the jobs paying in Charlotte Vs that of Reno?
Standard of living in Charlotte was 6% lower (i.e. 6% lower salaries--not exactly the same thing, but close enough for comparison). Cost of living was 8% lower in Charlotte, plus the addition of the lower median home prices. I got those numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website, IIRC.
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GHI I pay anywhere from $1.45 gasoline to $1.55 per litre for diesel and the oil comes from the west ARG :furious
I also read on comment on another blog that we are not experiancing inflation it is deflation we have. :aok
For a long time, many markets' around the world traded in U.S. Dollars. However, It's suffering from inflation at a fast rate; That's why the Canadian dollar is stronger than ours' right now.
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For a long time, many markets' around the world traded in U.S. Dollars. However, It's suffering from inflation at a fast rate; That's why the Canadian dollar is stronger than ours' right now.
No as of right now we are trading at $.9897 = $1 Cnd
That puts my fuel at (1.55 x 3.785)= $5.86675 CDN per US gallon
5.86675 x .9897 = $5.81 US per US gallon
20 to 40% of the price of fuel in Canada goes to Tax.
I have been told that we have the sunshine tax too.
Funny though I look at GHI price and think its a deal (got to give my head a shake)
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psssssst...
....if the folks keeping score have a horse in the race, how good and or reliable is the score keeping?
A definition of 'economic recession' generated 50 years ago in a different economy and now picked up as a watchword for elitist pinheads wielding the policy power to turn on the money printing presses and admistered by folks that don't have to actually live in a world where the daily decisions amount to which necessity they get to do without today...
Well.. let's just say that here in my world the cost of living has skyrocketed far beyond any increase in revenues, and what has resulted is a recession in my household's economy.
I don't give a damn what the elitists call it on the news... 'downturn', 'recession'. 'distressed financial period'...
It's a freakin tragedy.
Of historic proportions.
And getting worse, every damn day.
So, go ahead folks, watch yer wealth shrivel away (or bury yer heads in the sand)....and wail and rant about the PC verbiage for the losses.
...but I'll continue to call it what it is.
Hell for workin folks.
Hang
Fat Drunk Bastage
Still
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No as of right now we are trading at $.9897 = $1 Cnd
That puts my fuel at (1.55 x 3.785)= $5.86675 CDN per US gallon
5.86675 x .9897 = $5.81 US per US gallon
20 to 40% of the price of fuel in Canada goes to Tax.
I have been told that we have the sunshine tax too.
Funny though I look at GHI price and think its a deal (got to give my head a shake)
That's what I was getting at; The U.S. dollar is currently weaker than the Canadian equivalent. Most likely due to the U.S. dollars' inflation rate, rather than the Canadians' deflation.
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That's what I was getting at; The U.S. dollar is currently weaker than the Canadian equivalent. Most likely due to the U.S. dollars' inflation rate, rather than the Canadians' deflation.
Frode
$1 Canadian = $.9897 American
$10,000 Canadian = $9,897 American
Canada is in an inflationary position and it the US that is in a deflationary periond because of printing to much money.
Here is a link to find out where another $15,000,000,000 US new printed dollars are going.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4322440.ece (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4322440.ece)
When will it end.
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Spot on sir.
I've been saying this exact thing for many months now.
You guys know our cruddy economy is pretty much Congress's fault. With restrictions for drilling in OUR own country, we gotta buy expensive gas elsewhere.
Nancy Pelosi said that they were gonna tap into our oil reserve and get something like 50,000 barrels a day when we use 87 million a day... Or something like that. Very very odd. That's like a Nickel out of 87$$.
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United States proven oil reserves declined to a little less than 21 billion barrels (3.3×109 m3) as of 2006 according to the Energy Information Administration, a 46% decline from the 39 billion barrels (6.2×109 m3) it had in 1970 when the huge Alaska North Slope (ANS) reserves were booked. With production of around 5 million barrels per day (790×103 m3/d) as of 2006, this represents about an 11 year supply of oil reserves at current rates of production.
If the United States had to supply its entire demand of 21 million barrels per day (3.3×106 m3/d) without resorting to foreign imports, existing US reserves would last only three years at the current rate of consumption.
No oil fields of similar size to the ANS reserves have been found in the US since 1970. With over 2.3 million wells having been drilled in the US since 1949,[43] there are very few unexplored areas left where a similar size oil field is likely to be found.[citation needed] US oil reserve numbers are very accurate compared to those of most other countries.
As a result of the decline in reserves, United States crude oil production also has been declining for nearly 30 years. Production peaked in 1970 at 9.6 million barrels per day (1.53×106 m3/d), but declined 47% to 5.1 million barrels per day (810×103 m3/d) by 2006. At the same time, US imports of oil and petroleum products increased by 400% from 3.4 million barrels per day (540×103 m3/d) in 1970 to 13.6 million barrels per day (2.16×106 m3/d) in 2006. The largest suppliers of oil and products in 2006 were Canada and Mexico, which supplied 2.3 and 1.7 Mbbl/d (370×103 and 270×103 m3/d), respectively.[44]
Imports of oil and products account for nearly half of the US trade deficit. As of 2007, the Energy Information Agency (EIA) of the US Department of Energy projected that in 2007 oil consumption would rise to 20.9 million barrels per day (3.32×106 m3/d), while oil production would fall to 5.1 million barrels per day (810×103 m3/d), meaning that oil consumption would be nearly four times as high as oil production.[45]
In April 2008, the United States Geological Survey (USGS) released a report giving a new resource assessment of the Bakken Formation underlying portions of Montana and North Dakota. The USGS believes that with new horizontal drilling technology there is somewhere between 3.0 and 4.5 billion barrels (480×106 and 720×106 m3) of recoverable oil remaining to be discovered in this 200,000 square miles (520,000 km²) formation that was initially discovered in 1951. If accurate, this reassessment would make it the largest continuous oil formation ever discovered in the U.S.[46] However, it would represent only a five to seven month supply of oil for the United States at current (2007) rates of consumption.
A 1993 United States Geological Survey (USGS) study indicated at least 4.3 billion (95% probability) and possibly as much as 11.8 billion (5% probability) barrels (0.9 to 2.5 km³) of technically recoverable oil exists in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge 1002 area, with a mean value of 7.7 billion barrels (1.7 km³). In addition, in the entire assessment area, which covers not only land under Federal jurisdiction, but also Native lands and adjacent State waters within 3 miles (5 km), technically recoverable oil is estimated to be at least 5.7 billion (95%) and as much as 16.0 billion (5%) barrels (0.7 to 1.9 km³), with a mean value of 10.4 billion barrels (1.2 km³). Economically recoverable oil within the Federal lands assuming a market price of $40/barrel (constant 1996 dollars - the highest price included in the USGS study) is estimated to be between 3.4 billion (95%) and 10.4 billion (5%) barrels (0.5 to 1.7 km³), with a mean value of 6.8 billion barrels (1.1 km³). A May 2008 assessment by the EIA estimated cumulative production of the 1002 area to be a maximum of 4.3 billion barrels from 2018 to 2030. This estimate is a best case scenario of technically recoverable oil during the area's primary production years if legislation were passed in 2008 to allow drilling.[47]
Every body has to realize that the end of crude is near.
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United States proven oil reserves declined to a little less than 21 billion barrels (3.3×109 m3) as of 2006 according to the Energy Information Administration, a 46% decline from the 39 billion barrels (6.2×109 m3) it had in 1970 when the huge Alaska North Slope (ANS) reserves were booked. With production of around 5 million barrels per day (790×103 m3/d) as of 2006, this represents about an 11 year supply of oil reserves at current rates of production.
If the United States had to supply its entire demand of 21 million barrels per day (3.3×106 m3/d) without resorting to foreign imports, existing US reserves would last only three years at the current rate of consumption.
No oil fields of similar size to the ANS reserves have been found in the US since 1970. With over 2.3 million wells having been drilled in the US since 1949,[43] there are very few unexplored areas left where a similar size oil field is likely to be found.[citation needed] US oil reserve numbers are very accurate compared to those of most other countries.
As a result of the decline in reserves, United States crude oil production also has been declining for nearly 30 years. Production peaked in 1970 at 9.6 million barrels per day (1.53×106 m3/d), but declined 47% to 5.1 million barrels per day (810×103 m3/d) by 2006. At the same time, US imports of oil and petroleum products increased by 400% from 3.4 million barrels per day (540×103 m3/d) in 1970 to 13.6 million barrels per day (2.16×106 m3/d) in 2006. The largest suppliers of oil and products in 2006 were Canada and Mexico, which supplied 2.3 and 1.7 Mbbl/d (370×103 and 270×103 m3/d), respectively.[44]
Imports of oil and products account for nearly half of the US trade deficit. As of 2007, the Energy Information Agency (EIA) of the US Department of Energy projected that in 2007 oil consumption would rise to 20.9 million barrels per day (3.32×106 m3/d), while oil production would fall to 5.1 million barrels per day (810×103 m3/d), meaning that oil consumption would be nearly four times as high as oil production.[45]
In April 2008, the United States Geological Survey (USGS) released a report giving a new resource assessment of the Bakken Formation underlying portions of Montana and North Dakota. The USGS believes that with new horizontal drilling technology there is somewhere between 3.0 and 4.5 billion barrels (480×106 and 720×106 m3) of recoverable oil remaining to be discovered in this 200,000 square miles (520,000 km²) formation that was initially discovered in 1951. If accurate, this reassessment would make it the largest continuous oil formation ever discovered in the U.S.[46] However, it would represent only a five to seven month supply of oil for the United States at current (2007) rates of consumption.
A 1993 United States Geological Survey (USGS) study indicated at least 4.3 billion (95% probability) and possibly as much as 11.8 billion (5% probability) barrels (0.9 to 2.5 km³) of technically recoverable oil exists in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge 1002 area, with a mean value of 7.7 billion barrels (1.7 km³). In addition, in the entire assessment area, which covers not only land under Federal jurisdiction, but also Native lands and adjacent State waters within 3 miles (5 km), technically recoverable oil is estimated to be at least 5.7 billion (95%) and as much as 16.0 billion (5%) barrels (0.7 to 1.9 km³), with a mean value of 10.4 billion barrels (1.2 km³). Economically recoverable oil within the Federal lands assuming a market price of $40/barrel (constant 1996 dollars - the highest price included in the USGS study) is estimated to be between 3.4 billion (95%) and 10.4 billion (5%) barrels (0.5 to 1.7 km³), with a mean value of 6.8 billion barrels (1.1 km³). A May 2008 assessment by the EIA estimated cumulative production of the 1002 area to be a maximum of 4.3 billion barrels from 2018 to 2030. This estimate is a best case scenario of technically recoverable oil during the area's primary production years if legislation were passed in 2008 to allow drilling.[47]
Every body has to realize that the end of crude is near.
You know that there's something like 2 Trillion barrels of oil in that Shale Stuff in the Dakotas.
We can make electric powered cars and stuff, we just gotta have a little bit more time, we wont get it next year, but maybe between 2010 and 2015.
I know Honda is coming out with an Electric powered car that can go 400 miles with out a re-charge that will be affordable for middle-class families. :aok
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You know that there's something like 2 Trillion barrels of oil in that Shale Stuff in the Dakotas.
We can make electric powered cars and stuff, we just gotta have a little bit more time, we wont get it next year, but maybe between 2010 and 2015.
I know Honda is coming out with an Electric powered car that can go 400 miles with out a re-charge that will be affordable for middle-class families. :aok
The United States has the largest known deposits of oil shale in the world, according to the Bureau of Land Management and holds an estimated 2,500 gigabarrels of potentially recoverable oil, enough to meet U.S. demand for oil at current rates for 110 years. However, oil shale does not actually contain oil, but a waxy oil precursor known as kerogen. For this reason and because there is not yet any significant commercial production of oil from oil shale in the United States as of 2008, its oil shale reserves do not meet the petroleum industry definition of proven oil reserves.
Hopefully we can find some sort of substitute for fuel in the near future yes :aok But here and now more corn is going to be turned into fuel thereby raising food prices also.
Just looking at the reserves for each country we have less than 120 years left of oil at the current rate of production :O
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Well, this may sound kinda, probably really cheesy but here it is from my point of view...
It takes millions of years to make oil (lets say 1 million years...) well, 1 million years ago this second, something died and probably helped make another small amount of oil. It seems kinda stupid, but since that's what they tell us, there's got to be more oil in the making in the older dried up oil wells (hopefully, and if not, other places).
Okay, now that we're done with my dim view on how oil is made, Alaska has tons and tons of oil that we cant access either. China and Cuba are horizontally drilling 50 miles off the coast of Flordia when we cant touch it. 90% of this oil problem is Congress's fault. They got approval ratings in the single digits (last I checked 8 or 9% :O)
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Well, this may sound kinda, probably really cheesy but here it is from my point of view...
It takes millions of years to make oil (lets say 1 million years...) well, 1 million years ago this second, something died and probably helped make another small amount of oil. It seems kinda stupid, but since that's what they tell us, there's got to be more oil in the making in the older dried up oil wells (hopefully, and if not, other places).
Okay, now that we're done with my dim view on how oil is made, Alaska has tons and tons of oil that we cant access either. China and Cuba are horizontally drilling 50 miles off the coast of Flordia when we cant touch it. 90% of this oil problem is Congress's fault. They got approval ratings in the single digits (last I checked 8 or 9% :O)
Or is it shrewd use everyone Else's oil up first and then magically we find more :rofl
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Then we sell it to them an make them bow down to it... muahahaha!! :noid :noid :noid :noid
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Then we sell it to them an make them bow down to it... muahahaha!! :noid :noid :noid :noid
:aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :noid :noid
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The US should be ahead of the rest of the world. There's no excuse for anything else.
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we're now a fat and happy...spoiled and lazy society that feels previous generations did everything we ever need to do to asssure a constant stream of milk and honey.
that's pretty much why we're where we are now.
I knew it with certainty on 9-12-01. I was in a room with about 30 people in shock like everyone else...and I mentioned that this moment was our generations "pearl harbor"...and that I expected a draft. every single person who was a parent said.... "not my kid". at that point I knew with crystal clarity we were dying from the inside out.
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we're now a fat and happy...spoiled and lazy society that feels previous generations did everything we ever need to do to asssure a constant stream of milk and honey.
that's pretty much why we're where we are now.
I knew it with certainty on 9-12-01. I was in a room with about 30 people in shock like everyone else...and I mentioned that this moment was our generations "pearl harbor"...and that I expected a draft. every single person who was a parent said.... "not my kid". at that point I knew with crystal clarity we were dying from the inside out.
I agree. VERY well said.
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I think the thing that's hurting America the most is the, "everyone else's fault but ours" mentality.
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Lazs..you were wrong on the first page
I sell real estate...There is one party that was hurt and did not deserve it. Renters who landlords lost there azzzes...
How about you pay your rent every month, but your landlord is not paying the mortgage..You then get a "3 day eveicton notice" posted on your door....Oh your deposit?..lolo good luck with that 1
Yes the rest of the folks deserved it..along with the sheisty lenders who a good bunch of them shoudl be in jail
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I think the thing that's hurting America the most is the, "everyone else's fault but ours" mentality.
I think that's more of the Left side's thing. Like how everything involving GWB makes him a Nazi... And everything Congress does makes them "great" people... :rolleyes:
I read a magazine this morning, and there's this place off the Australian coast that might have more oil than the middle east! :O
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I think that's more of the Left side's thing. Like how everything involving GWB makes him a Nazi... And everything Congress does makes them "great" people... :rolleyes:
I read a magazine this morning, and there's this place off the Australian coast that might have more oil than the middle east! :O
Interesting that you mentioned' that.
As technology in the petroleum industry advances, with new drilling and extraction techniques, Formations' that have been known to exist for a long time, but have been previously inaccessible, can now be used.
However, there are things' we could do in our economy to simply reduce the demand, and stretch our reserves still further. For example...This country brought Nuclear power to the rest of the planet, And I don't think there's really any argument that it did. We've been using Nuclear reactors' in both Military and Civilian applications' for over 50 years' now.
And the newest power plants' built have to burn Natural Gas?
A nuclear power plant can be built to be safe. They can be controlled. They won't use the Petroleum we need for other things. And...If there's no petroleum need from a Nuclear power grid, What do you suppose the impact on Oil prices would be? The supply that normally goes' to power production would go to other things...Plus, we would be making a large step back towards self-suffiency in our economy. Nuclear plants don't burn Middle-Eastern oil or gas, remember.
If we had made the move to using Nuclear power for our grids here in the U.S. like they thought we would in the '50's, we coulda kept the sheiks' in Saudi Arabia by the short-hairs. Instead, It's now the other way around.
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As T.Boone Pickens says...natural gas is too valuable to burn to make electricity.
shamus
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bgbmaw.. I don't know about there but here.. it is a renters dream.. houses for rent at former apartment rates. Why would the bank kick out all the renters? what they gonna do.. just leave it vacant? or bulldoze it?
the real problem for renters is the pent up demand that will come because of so few housing starts.. everyone got to live somewhere... I own a duplex and more and more people are wanting to rent from me no matter the cost. I don't work that way.. I don't ever raise rent except as the cost to me goes up.
I never did fall for the "house as an atm" scam anyway nor did I think that a million dollars was a reasonable price for a duplex.. I didn't sell because they wanted that same million for some crap hole in the country.
I will wait till everything stabalizes and.. being investment property, mine goes up faster than the country, then I will sell and by a little place away from the hand wringers and panic mongers and socialists.
lazs
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Correct they are making more and more gas to electricity plants, but right now the natural gas is very abundent, they can also burn coal bed methane also.
There has been few nuclear plants built in the last 30 years because of the fear of another three mile island or chernoble. A few months ago though I was reading that green parties are realizing that nuclear can be clean and green.
:huh
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Interesting that you mentioned' that.
As technology in the petroleum industry advances, with new drilling and extraction techniques, Formations' that have been known to exist for a long time, but have been previously inaccessible, can now be used.
However, there are things' we could do in our economy to simply reduce the demand, and stretch our reserves still further. For example...This country brought Nuclear power to the rest of the planet, And I don't think there's really any argument that it did. We've been using Nuclear reactors' in both Military and Civilian applications' for over 50 years' now.
And the newest power plants' built have to burn Natural Gas?
A nuclear power plant can be built to be safe. They can be controlled. They won't use the Petroleum we need for other things. And...If there's no petroleum need from a Nuclear power grid, What do you suppose the impact on Oil prices would be? The supply that normally goes' to power production would go to other things...Plus, we would be making a large step back towards self-suffiency in our economy. Nuclear plants don't burn Middle-Eastern oil or gas, remember.
If we had made the move to using Nuclear power for our grids here in the U.S. like they thought we would in the '50's, we coulda kept the sheiks' in Saudi Arabia by the short-hairs. Instead, It's now the other way around.
Nuclear power had gone down because of 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl. But Nuclear power could be out ticket out of this oil crisis thing... I think in the 1970s, in the first "Oil Crisis" the Europeans were working on Coal Driven cars or something like that and in Saudi ARabia, gas went to 8$$ a gallon or something... I sense, that's what's gonna happen here... :noid
That's another thing Congress and the Left-Wing nutts dont want us to have, is Nuclear Power. Because it "causes too much pollution" when it causes like 10% of the pollution that coal does (maybe less)
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Nuclear power had gone down because of 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl. But Nuclear power could be out ticket out of this oil crisis thing... I think in the 1970s, in the first "Oil Crisis" the Europeans were working on Coal Driven cars or something like that and in Saudi ARabia, gas went to 8$$ a gallon or something... I sense, that's what's gonna happen here... :noid
That's another thing Congress and the Left-Wing nutts dont want us to have, is Nuclear Power. Because it "causes too much pollution" when it causes like 10% of the pollution that coal does (maybe less)
Rudolf Diesel the designer of the diesel motor enginered it to run on among other thing COAL :aok
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That's another thing Congress and the Left-Wing nutts dont want us to have, is Nuclear Power. Because it "causes too much pollution" when it causes like 10% of the pollution that coal does (maybe less)
1 in 2 statistics are made up 47% of the time.
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That's another thing Congress and the Left-Wing nutts dont want us to have, is Nuclear Power. Because it "causes too much pollution" when it causes like 10% of the pollution that coal does (maybe less)
The only things that come out of nuclear plants is electricity, heat, and spent fuel. For coal, about twice the co2 per unit energy than natural gas. But coal and natural gas we can F-T liquify to make gasoline and diesel to power our cars.
If we reprocessed spent nuclear fuel (like France does) we could reduce the spent fuel to a much smaller level problem than what there is now. It really is not the problem we have made it out to be. The biggest problem with nuclear power is the ignorance of the populace and the lack of leadership to bring us out of that ignorance.
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....then I will sell and by a little place away from the hand wringers and panic mongers and socialists.
lazs
Damn, Laz... you planning on immigrating to China ?
:salute
Hang
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naaa.. but if you move even a little ways out.. even in kalifornia.. they are so busy watching each other and picking over each others bones that they pretty much don't have time for you.. the watchers are so busy being watched by other watchers that they are in a frenzy.
lazs
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i captured this last 3 days driving from Tx to Ontario, i don't know if you guys have inflation or depression, but the cost of living in midwest/west south central from Texas,AR,Mo,IL,IN is very low comparing with Canada , Europe,Japan. Billboards advertising new houses from 90K-120k in TX, but i seen same prices all over midwest. You can't buy a new house/townhouse or condo in Ontario for that price range. The price of groceries is also lower in US,: lots of peoples from Windsor are crossing the bridge to Detroit for shoopings.
Canada is #1 exporter of oil to US .....and look at our gas prices, :furious :furious ..
San Antonio ,TX
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/txcase.jpg)
south of Austin,Tx
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/casetx.jpg)
gas price Rockwall ,tx east of Dallas, 3.89$/gal
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/texas2009.jpg)
gas price south of Sikeston,Missouri ( the lowest i seen 3.75/gal)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/texas2027.jpg)
south of Detroit,Mi
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/texas2042.jpg)
what i payed for gas today here in Windsor,Ontario 1.33CAD/L x 3.7 L/G=4.9cad /gal x 0.99 usd/cad=4.87$/gal
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/johny35/texas2049.jpg)
Texas is extremely cheap compared to much of the US. I was predicting Texas to be the next big growth state and take over Florida's place fore retirees. Well back when the housing market was sky high and before these current problems hit. Me and a friend of mine came so damn close to going out there to flip houses, but it was the start of the housing crunch so we decided to hold off. I'm glad we did now.
However even then you could find houses under $70k all day long. Austin was the most expensive place so I'd say everything was about 20% more there. I actually had the paper work done and only had to sign on a condo in down town Austin that was a half block from Town Lake (the river). It was an awesome pad in a great location, I almost still kick myself for not buying it even with this current housing crunch because it was a great location.
The biggest problem I saw with Texas even in Austin is there was just far too much open land in the sourounding areas so people could buy new houses as your billboard picture shows almost as cheap as a existing house. So it was kind of a tough market there but still a lot of great buys.
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Last fall I did some comparisons with my current locale, Reno NV, versus my home town just outside of Charlotte NC. While the standard of living in Charlotte was 6% lower than Reno, the median home prices were 20-30% lower than Reno, and cost of living was 8% lower than Reno. Charlotte also still boasts an unemployment rate of approx. 3%, and is the only major housing market to see an increase (2%) in new home sales in the 1st quarter 2008. From talking to family back in God's country, I know that fuel prices, while high, are still lower than Reno.
So, in sum, I'd assume that some of those home prices in Texas probably represent a very affordable home, even in a rural home market, with an overall lower standard of living. In the end, you still save money...
Na, man as I posted I went to Texas and checked around in both Austin and Dallas.. Houses are just cheap out there because they never got a big housing boom. The prices reminded me of Florida about 10 to 15 years ago. Back then I bought a house was a 3 bdrm,2bth,2 car on a corner lot with a privacy fenced in back yard. The house had a minor fire in it so the entire place had been gutted and redone, talking new bathroom new kitchen the whole 9 yards. I paid $54k for it when I was 21. Today that same house had a tax appraisal value of $175k.
This was in Brevard county were some of the highest paid jobs are in Florida because of the tech industry. That place is second only to silicon valley in the amount of high tech companies. It's just Florida had cheap houses for a long time, Texas is the same way but for what ever reason Florida's prices went through the roof the last 10 to 15 years and Texas houses didn't.
Just on the flip side though, just for the hell of it I was looking at prices in Detriot and you could liturally buy houses fot $100. They may or may or may not be burt down.. :rofl
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Texas is extremely cheap compared to much of the US. I was predicting Texas to be the next big growth state and take over Florida's place fore retirees. Well back when the housing market was sky high and before these current problems hit. Me and a friend of mine came so damn close to going out there to flip houses, but it was the start of the housing crunch so we decided to hold off. I'm glad we did now.
However even then you could find houses under $70k all day long. Austin was the most expensive place so I'd say everything was about 20% more there. I actually had the paper work done and only had to sign on a condo in down town Austin that was a half block from Town Lake (the river). It was an awesome pad in a great location, I almost still kick myself for not buying it even with this current housing crunch because it was a great location.
The biggest problem I saw with Texas even in Austin is there was just far too much open land in the sourounding areas so people could buy new houses as your billboard picture shows almost as cheap as a existing house. So it was kind of a tough market there but still a lot of great buys.
The time has never been better to snatch up rental properties.
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Well, this may sound kinda, probably really cheesy but here it is from my point of view...
It takes millions of years to make oil (lets say 1 million years...) well, 1 million years ago this second, something died and probably helped make another small amount of oil. It seems kinda stupid, but since that's what they tell us, there's got to be more oil in the making in the older dried up oil wells (hopefully, and if not, other places).
Okay, now that we're done with my dim view on how oil is made, Alaska has tons and tons of oil that we cant access either. China and Cuba are horizontally drilling 50 miles off the coast of Flordia when we cant touch it. 90% of this oil problem is Congress's fault. They got approval ratings in the single digits (last I checked 8 or 9% :O)
You guys crack me up.. It was Bush Sr. who put the ban in place but now because Bush Jr gave a speech it's all congresses fault. Some of you are worse than the sheep the bish are always molesting in the MA's.
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Interesting that you mentioned' that.
As technology in the petroleum industry advances, with new drilling and extraction techniques, Formations' that have been known to exist for a long time, but have been previously inaccessible, can now be used.
However, there are things' we could do in our economy to simply reduce the demand, and stretch our reserves still further. For example...This country brought Nuclear power to the rest of the planet, And I don't think there's really any argument that it did. We've been using Nuclear reactors' in both Military and Civilian applications' for over 50 years' now.
And the newest power plants' built have to burn Natural Gas?
A nuclear power plant can be built to be safe. They can be controlled. They won't use the Petroleum we need for other things. And...If there's no petroleum need from a Nuclear power grid, What do you suppose the impact on Oil prices would be? The supply that normally goes' to power production would go to other things...Plus, we would be making a large step back towards self-suffiency in our economy. Nuclear plants don't burn Middle-Eastern oil or gas, remember.
If we had made the move to using Nuclear power for our grids here in the U.S. like they thought we would in the '50's, we coulda kept the sheiks' in Saudi Arabia by the short-hairs. Instead, It's now the other way around.
Personally I don't have any issue with nuclear power plants. I live in Florida and we have more than any other state I think it's 6 or 7. There two within 1.5 hour drive from me. One in Orlando and one in Jacksonville. The deal is you guys here in the O Club love to just blame everything on liberal this or liberal that as to why there aren't any new reactors. However when was the last time you ever saw a politician push for a nuclear reactor in their state?
This is what really pisses me off about Bush. On 9/11 Bush was given the biggest open ticket this country has ever had to make the changes to country for the better and give us a very good future. Bush had the open ticket to do what was needed to close our boarders and curve the illegal immigration. He could have stood before our country and said we need to be self sufficient and make changes here at home. The American people would have stood behind him and did whatever had to be done. Hell the world would have stood behind us at the moment in time.
That is if he was a real leader.. Instead he invades Iraq because it's was the neocon thing to do and big business needed blood money. Not once did he tell the American people to get off your bellybutton and work together to solve our problems.. Instead it's war in middle east and push BS crap for the lobbyist like fuel from corn. Anything to make a buck and nothing to make any real change he has been a miserable failure to this country in the time it needed a real leader the most.
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Damn, Laz... you planning on immigrating to China ?
:salute
Hang
Laz won't have to worry about moving to China, The way its going, China will own us without firing a shot!
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crockett, the democrats have had congress for two years, how many new nuke power plants have they pushed to be built?
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crockett, the democrats have had congress for two years, how many new nuke power plants have they pushed to be built?
You missed the key point in that post.. How many polititions have asked for nuclear power in their states. Congress and the Senate don't really have much to do with the issue other than agreeing on regulations.
The president or a State Governor are the ones who can push for this stuff. Had Bush stood up after 9/11 and said this country needs to make major changes people would have stood behind him if he acted like a leader and led. Bush could have put together a plan and pushed real "legit" energy dependence for this country. That is what a leader would have done.
Instead he wanted to go play nation building for the neocons, push useless corn for fuel for the farm lobbyist and oil drilling for big oil. Not one thing did he push that will make us energy independent but everything he pushed makes a nice profit for big business and we will be in the same problem 20 years from now. Bush had the opportunity that no other president has ever had to change this country for the better and he failed at it miserably.
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Instead he wanted to go play nation building for the neocons, push useless corn for fuel for the farm lobbyist and oil drilling for big oil. Not one thing did he push that will make us energy independent but everything he pushed makes a nice profit for big business and we will be in the same problem 20 years from now. Bush had the opportunity that no other president has ever had to change this country for the better and he failed at it miserably.
You know ethanol and carbon credit's was Al-Gore's thing right? And I really doubt that McCain or Obama will be any better, if not worse. For 8 years, I've been listening to Bush being called a Nazi, when they ask him to do something like the Ethanol thing, he'll do it, but they they go find something else to complain about. He tried to settle down with out borders, CNN and NBC called him a Nazi again and tried to have Congress pass a bill that would give them the right to get welfare or something of that nature...
I really doubt that if Al Gore was president, he would've done any better, if not, worse...
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You know ethanol and carbon credit's was Al-Gore's thing right? And I really doubt that McCain or Obama will be any better, if not worse. For 8 years, I've been listening to Bush being called a Nazi, when they ask him to do something like the Ethanol thing, he'll do it, but they they go find something else to complain about. He tried to settle down with out borders, CNN and NBC called him a Nazi again and tried to have Congress pass a bill that would give them the right to get welfare or something of that nature...
I really doubt that if Al Gore was president, he would've done any better, if not, worse...
Of course McCain or Obama won't be any better on those issues, our entire govt is run by lobbyists. What was the last thing the govt ever did for the actual people? This is what I'm talking about, after 9/11 things could have changed it was one of those moments in time that anything could have been possiable if we had a real leader.
For the boarder patrol you are wrong on that.. After 9/11 Bush actually cut funding to the boarder patrol in his budget. They only got the funding back, after it became a Republican vs Democrat issue on TV...
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Recession is still on hold: Bad news for Bush haters. (http://www.codesimian.com/bushMiddleFinger.jpg) :cry
http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN3043337220080731?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&rpc=23&sp=true
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Expansion accelerated modestly in the second quarter as government stimulus payments helped consumers add more buying punch to the economy, a Commerce Department report on Thursday showed.
Gross Domestic Product or GDP grew at a 1.9 percent annual rate, up from a revised 0.9 percent rate in the first quarter that previously was reported as 1 percent.
That followed a 0.2 percent contraction in GDP during the final quarter of 2007 and avoided pushing the economy into back-to-back declines that would have met a popular definition of recession.
Economists surveyed by Reuters had expected a 2.0 percent rise in GDP in the second quarter.
Separately, the Labor Department reported a sharp jump in the number of U.S. workers filing new claims for jobless benefits -- up 44,000 though officials said some special factors were involved.
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No we are not in a recession, dollar at an all time high, plenty of high paying jobs,hardly any forecloses.
Bankruptcies almost none existent,credit card debit at a all time low, hardly anyone using the welfare system,
Prices at the pump are low, food prices are in credably low.Medical is also affordable. peoples credit rating
is the best its ever been in the history of this country!! :rolleyes:
Most people have all kinds of money to spend...these are the best times in America!! :rolleyes:
I could go on and on and on.
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No we are not in a recession, dollar at an all time high, plenty of high paying jobs,hardly any forecloses.
Bankruptcies almost none existent,credit card debit at a all time low, hardly anyone using the welfare system,
Prices at the pump are low, food prices are in credably low.Medical is also affordable. peoples credit rating
is the best its ever been in the history of this country!! :rolleyes:
Most people have all kinds of money to spend...these are the best times in America!! :rolleyes:
I could go on and on and on.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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what really pisses me off is sensationalism. The media loves sensational words because it attracts the attention of the sheeple that love to repeat them. I just heard zetanine in another thread say "we are in a recession".
That is because Zetanine is a moron. Don't let him get to you. Watching a fool acting as such in public, is very good entertainment.
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No we are not in a recession, dollar at an all time high, plenty of high paying jobs,hardly any forecloses.
Bankruptcies almost none existent,credit card debit at a all time low, hardly anyone using the welfare system,
Prices at the pump are low, food prices are in credably low.Medical is also affordable. peoples credit rating
is the best its ever been in the history of this country!! :rolleyes:
Most people have all kinds of money to spend...these are the best times in America!! :rolleyes:
I could go on and on and on.
Your post is a perfect example of who is reporting it, and from what political perspective. As an example;
The Treasury Department says:
..The US is not in a recession, in part because economic growth continues to be positive.
'The data suggests that we're not,' Treasury Assistant Secretary for Economic Policy Phillip Swagel said in a press briefing today. He pointed to GDP, which has yet to turn negative over the last few quarters, although growth has been sluggish. Meanwhile, business investment and orders for capital goods have continued to expand. He also noted that initial measures of retail sales in May are somewhat positive, which suggests slow but sustained spending.
'Whether its a recession or slow growth, it will feel bad for Americans,' Swagel said. The Assistant Secretary acknowledged today's Labor Department report of employment data, in which non-farm payrolls fell by 49,000 in May and unemployment surged to 5.5 pct.
He said that the rise in unemployment reflects an increased labor force participation, an observation many economists have made since the report was released this morning.
'But still,' he said, 'looking at the report as a whole, it signals to us that the labor market has weakened and that the job situation has become more difficult.'
He also said that high food and energy prices are 'not good news,' but that inflation outside of those areas is 'still contained.'
Then you talk to the "other side" and they say;
House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank (D-MA) said today, 'Additional fiscal stimulus is necessary and the President should end his opposition to Congressional efforts to respond.'
Frank is pushing for a second stimulus package that would provide direct assistance to state and local governments whose tax receipts have declined, and whose foreclosed residents require assistance. He pointed to today's employment numbers, saying that they 'confirm the fact that our economy is in serious trouble.'
Source (http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/06/06/afx5090029.html)
(Shrugs)
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Your post is a perfect example of who is reporting it, and from what political perspective. As an example;
The Treasury Department says:
Then you talk to the "other side" and they say;
Source (http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/06/06/afx5090029.html)
(Shrugs)
Look here Rip, with all due respect...all that stuff your posting is hog wash. Do you think our government is going to tell the public
How bad things are?? We are in a world of trouble and I don't care what anyone says. Its going to be the rich and the poor...its closer than you think.
The rich will dictate how much the poor will make. Its happening already...why do you think our government let all the illegals in? They will work for less and the rich get richer the poor gets poorer. But it will not last long because it will back fire on them. The rich live for today who cares about tomorrow.
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So get richer. You live in the land of opportunity. Of course, that means putting forth effort...
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I am and Thank Your for advice!!
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define "recession".
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we have not had that. We are probably going to have that in the near future......HOWEVER IT HASNT HAPPENED YET!
Depends in which state you live.
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define "recession".
There are no two economic slumps' that are the same, John. That's due to the fact that our economy has been in a state of constant change for the last 50 years, or even over a century or more if you want to go all the way back to the industrial revolution. But, just in the last 50 years since the end of WWII, we've gone from having a large manufacturing base to being over half a nation of service-providers. It's our downfall looking us in the face, too.
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Recession is still on hold: Bad news for Bush haters. (http://www.codesimian.com/bushMiddleFinger.jpg) :cry
http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN3043337220080731?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&rpc=23&sp=true
Rip, There are signs' even in that link that things are in trouble. They just put a rosier tint on things. You read stuff like this:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080731/economy.html (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080731/economy.html)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080731/bs_nm/markets_stocks_dc_49 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080731/bs_nm/markets_stocks_dc_49)
It depends' on your POV on this, as you can see. Even with news' of the GDP increasing, the markets' still fell.
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so the sky is falling then? its about damned time the sky fell.
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<--manages a retail electronics store. I have posted a sales gain each month this year over last years sales in Michigan (worst economy in the country). We are not in a recession.
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<--manages a retail electronics store. I have posted a sales gain each month this year over last years sales in Michigan (worst economy in the country). We are not in a recession.
Recessions' don't stop the welfare checks, and what they spend it on, Sluggish. Isn't Michigan one of the states' with the highest number of welfare recepients?
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<--manages a retail electronics store. I have posted a sales gain each month this year over last years sales in Michigan (worst economy in the country). We are not in a recession.
Kaw1000<<<<<Car bizz 30 years...dealerships closing all over..Gm and ford Factory's closing left and right... major job losses
by the trickle down effect! which business
generates more for the economy, electronics or Cars?
Housing market on its ear..houses are deprecating instead of appreciating...forecloses every where..home sales slumping badly.
The two largest Industries are hurting bad,....no, theres no recession. :rolleyes:
Banks going under or close to it...stock prices falling...Value of dollar falling....but all is well in the U.S.A!!
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define "recession".
go back to the first page
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Just saying. In the worst economy in the country, with gas prices well over $4. a gallon, with the car industry in shambles, with banks failing left and right, with foreclosures at an all-time high, my business and those around me are doing better than we did last year. There is no recession.
I think what the rest of the country is doing is catching up-or falling-to our level. It's just the fact that we've been down here for so long we're used to it, kinda like when you first jump in the pool the water's cold as heck, but once you've been in for a while it feels fine. Trust me, this IS a survivable economy.
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Kaw1000<<<<<Car bizz 30 years...dealerships closing all over..Gm and ford Factory's closing left and right... major job losses
by the trickle down effect! which business
generates more for the economy, electronics or Cars?
Housing market on its ear..houses are deprecating instead of appreciating...forecloses every where..home sales slumping badly.
The two largest Industries are hurting bad,....no, theres no recession. :rolleyes:
Banks going under or close to it...stock prices falling...Value of dollar falling....but all is well in the U.S.A!!
Toyota, Honda, etc can't build hybrids fast enough, the US is second in world steel production, the housing market is correcting for a over priced market. And foreclosures are not everywhere.
and the GNP is up 1.9% last quarter
.
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The sky is not falling. The news media and others want you to think that because it's an election year. It favors the party out of office. As far as Ford closing plants, there are others being built. Honda is building a plant here in Indiana.
Additionally, 99% of employers are small companies with less than 500 employees. These are the ones that don't ask for subsidies, or tax rebates. They just go out an do it.
In regards to the housing market, the correction was way over due. This idiots went out and got the worst loans and purchased homes they really could not afford. Now the government wants to bail them out while people like me who live in a modest home have to ante up. That is sad.
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We may not "technically" be in a recession.
But between gas prices and a weak economy.
People sure are acting as if we were.
I know my business has been feeling it BAD.
Took an outright nosedive.
I haven't even been called on to do an estimate for over a month.
Even during an actual recession..in the winter time I I've never had that happen before
Getting very few new customers
And if it weren't for repeat customers since January.
I'd be out of business.
Its why I haven't been able to finish building my new computer.
The hardware store where I buy my paint was saying the same thing the other day.
His sales are way off too.
And considering the majority of his customers are homeowners and not construction contractors.
And his store sits literally right next to no less then 6 Condo and housing developments. Each which probably have a 90%+ occupancy and very very few for sale
Its kinda hard to blame that on lack of new construction. Or forclosures.
So while we may not technically BE in a recession.
It sure as watermelon feels that way.
Hell I may even have to lay off my own son next week
Now I dont blame Bush at all.
But. the economy isnt fine and dandy. Unless of course you own stock in oil.
And that is its public perception. And people are beleiving we are in a recession.
And the public perception is that its Bush's fault no matter if it is or isnt.
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True Honda is building a plant. But Ford and GM are closing several plants.
Seems people do not have the spending power they once had.
Looks to me like the higher paying jobs are going away, and the low paying jobs are in abundance.
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True Honda is building a plant. But Ford and GM are closing several plants.
Seems people do not have the spending power they once had.
Looks to me like the higher paying jobs are going away, and the low paying jobs are in abundance.
Sounds like the ebb and tide of the American Economy. Imagine that.
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the government spending money like a HO on crack coupled with WE THE PEOPLE trying to RIP OFF the market for everything its worth is whats going to kill this economy.
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And here I thought it was an oppressive tax system! Man I need to get out more! :furious :noid
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what really pisses me off is sensationalism. The media loves sensational words because it attracts the attention of the sheeple that love to repeat them. I just heard zetanine in another thread say "we are in a recession".
:cough:
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Everything is still going fine, we have to have 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth before recession kicks in.
All of you Bush haters should just chill.
shamus
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<--manages a retail electronics store. I have posted a sales gain each month this year over last years sales in Michigan (worst economy in the country). We are not in a recession.
<--have fallen short 3k and 4k of sales goal for the months of Sept and Oct respectively. We're in a recession. If you lose in the golden quarter (and I will) there can be no doubt about a recession.
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The US BEA (Bureau of Economic Analysis) had us at negative growth last quarter. We very well could be in a recession, but will only know in a few more months.
In July when this thread started, we weren't. But given the definition, you don't know until after it has been happening.
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Everything is still going fine, we have to have 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth before recession kicks in.
All of you Bush haters should just chill.
shamus
we are in a recession
but to blame bush for it is to give credit to slick in the mid 90's for the dot com bubble during its boom.
both are events from policies set in motion before the admin which happens to benefit or suffer from said policy has even been elected..
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Yes Bush is to blame for recession just like CO2 is to blame for rising temperatures. :rolleyes:
The only problem with screaming 'the sky is falling' is eventually people will realize the sky is not going to fall and the screamers will lose their jobs not because the economy is bad but because they suck at their jobs. :lol
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Well the company I work for is having a record year (can't wait for our bonus checks :O ) and there is always cold beer in my refrig. Can't complain. :cool:
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Recession has to do with GDP. The exact definition is this:
A recession is defined to be a period of two quarters of negative GDP growth. Now lets define GDP!
GDP. The total market value of all final goods and services produced in a country in a given year, equal to total consumer, investment and government spending, plus the value of exports, minus the value of imports. The GDP report is released at 8:30 am EST on the last day of each quarter and reflects the previous quarter. Growth in GDP is what matters, and the U.S. GDP growth has historically averaged about 2.5-3% per year but with substantial deviations. Each initial GDP report will be revised twice before the final figure is settled upon: the "advance" report is followed by the "preliminary" report about a month later and a final report a month after that. Significant revisions to the advance number can cause additional ripples through the markets. The GDP numbers are reported in two forms: current dollar and constant dollar. Current dollar GDP is calculated using today's dollars and makes comparisons between time periods difficult because of the effects of inflation. Constant dollar GDP solves this problem by converting the current information into some standard era dollar, such as 1997 dollars. This process factors out the effects of inflation and allows easy comparisons between periods. It is important to differentiate Gross Domestic Product from Gross National Product (GNP). GDP includes only goods and services produced within the geographic boundaries of the U.S., regardless of the producer's nationality. GNP doesn't include goods and services produced by foreign producers, but does include goods and services produced by U.S. firms operating in foreign countries.
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq77/AAdeath/Newdollarbill.jpg)
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GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT
:D
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Well the company I work for is having a record year (can't wait for our bonus checks :O ) and there is always cold beer in my refrig. Can't complain. :cool:
Same here...except I'm not naive enough to ignore what is going on in the markets and financial sectors right now.
It doesn't matter what the text book definition of a recession is. Back in July when this thread was started there was serious trouble brewing and placing ones fingers in ones ears and ignoring the problem didn't change the fact that we are now in a world of poo.
Where ya gonna bank that bonus check? Will there be one next year or will the crisis catch up to your business?
Bear in mind that the knock-on effects from failures hasn't even begun. Massive funds are currently refusing to redeem holdings and are trying to weather the storm. f they go bust then many pensions and life savings will be at risk or simply lost.
It is a cluster-f out there right now and whether Bush is to blame is absolutely irrelevant at this stage.
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Same here...except I'm not naive enough to ignore what is going on in the markets and financial sectors right now.
It doesn't matter what the text book definition of a recession is. Back in July when this thread was started there was serious trouble brewing and placing ones fingers in ones ears and ignoring the problem didn't change the fact that we are now in a world of poo.
Where ya gonna bank that bonus check? Will there be one next year or will the crisis catch up to your business?
Bear in mind that the knock-on effects from failures hasn't even begun. Massive funds are currently refusing to redeem holdings and are trying to weather the storm. f they go bust then many pensions and life savings will be at risk or simply lost.
It is a cluster-f out there right now and whether Bush is to blame is absolutely irrelevant at this stage.
Agreed. I posted to lighten the mood a bit. I deal with a small, local bank, that could be good or bad. I've seen my 401 K loose 20% with no end in sight. I am a realist and do see more trouble ahead. Might have to switch to cheaper beer. :cry
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Small local banks have actually been a much better bet than the big boys, as long as you didn't have any cowboys in your finance department trading in credit dervatives. :O
Hope things continue to go well for ya.
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If you listen to the political rhetoric some believe we are in a recession. Water is seeking its level for many wrong doings in the past. The financial crisis goes back to other administrations. Dems and Republicans. Not only have they been "Lax" at giving loans, many people have gotten loans with little or no money down. Banks have been bastardizing mortgages and selling them for the "almighty buck". These banks need to pay the price for buying the risk out of stupidity.
The automotive industry is also paying a high price. Your 401k's are heavily invested in many categories. Pharmaceuticals, medical and OIL. Detroit is so much in bed with politicians they never really developed technology to address the OIL situation until now. When OIL prices rose GM,FORD and CHRYSLER were in a "reactive" mode where Honda and Toyota already had Hybrid technology developed many years prior. Just like in the 70's, they were ahead of the game by miles. When the public reacted, they were ready. Detroit wasn't due to Political motivation and $. Also, every GM, FORD and CHRYSLER has $1500-$2000 in every car for the retiree' and benefit packages which gives a huge advantage to foreign automakers. Lets not forget Honda and Toyota have been making cars that last 200,000 miles plus for many years. Also, the American auto makers really do not have anything better than foreign automakers. The may have at best, equal products in a category or 2. Honda/Toyota outperform, have great style and are priced right. Why would I buy a GM, Ford or CHRYSLER when I can get a better car from Honda or Toyota. The New Hybrids from American automakers are almost $40k. If I am looking for Hybrid, a Prius is $22k. Understand the $40K is bigger and stylish but the $5k to $10K is a substantial difference from the same non hybrid car.
Jobs have left this country due to "Global Economy" which was fine when NAFTA was signed because the tec industry and our economy was great and there were many jobs available(with quick education). Some went back to school others migrated to different industries.One could easily find a programming job at 45k in this sector but the loss of jobs were not as great as recent past. When some lose there jobs due to whatever reason, there are not many jobs available in the 30k to 50k level. The unemployed only see service related jobs paying $8 to $12 and either do not want them or cannot afford to live on this income. We did not look to the future but looked to the present. The bottom line is availability to find jobs that one can support a family, mortgage, ect.
Stocks have been over inflated for years. Companies have lied and cheated in the past to get stock's up and this is no secret. This started leveling off years ago but are finally at the level they probably should be. Companies lied about projections and they finally make more realistic projections as there stocks will not fluctuate as much unless the surpass these projections.
Homes were over inflated. Seeing the economy was so good for so many years, property values rose at a minimum of 7% and sometimes as much as 15% a year. It was definitely a sellers market for a long time.
It's funny how much Oil has dropped. If OIL were over $100 a barrel we would be in serious trouble. The economy may get worse before it gets better but I think we have 6 months until we start seeing a turn.
THE DEFINITION OF RECESSION STAYS THE SAME. YOU CANNOT REDEFINE A WORD BECAUSE WE HAVE MADE MANY MISTAKES OVER A DECADE OR TWO
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THE DEFINITION OF RECESSION STAYS THE SAME. YOU CANNOT REDEFINE A WORD BECAUSE WE HAVE MADE MANY MISTAKES OVER A DECADE OR TWO
Correct, but the only reason we aren't currently in a DEPRESSION right now is the government bailouts.
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Recession has to do with GDP. The exact definition is this:
A recession is defined to be a period of two quarters of negative GDP growth. Now lets define GDP!
GDP. The total market value of all final goods and services produced in a country in a given year, equal to total consumer, investment and government spending, plus the value of exports, minus the value of imports. The GDP report is released at 8:30 am EST on the last day of each quarter and reflects the previous quarter. Growth in GDP is what matters, and the U.S. GDP growth has historically averaged about 2.5-3% per year but with substantial deviations. Each initial GDP report will be revised twice before the final figure is settled upon: the "advance" report is followed by the "preliminary" report about a month later and a final report a month after that. Significant revisions to the advance number can cause additional ripples through the markets. The GDP numbers are reported in two forms: current dollar and constant dollar. Current dollar GDP is calculated using today's dollars and makes comparisons between time periods difficult because of the effects of inflation. Constant dollar GDP solves this problem by converting the current information into some standard era dollar, such as 1997 dollars. This process factors out the effects of inflation and allows easy comparisons between periods. It is important to differentiate Gross Domestic Product from Gross National Product (GNP). GDP includes only goods and services produced within the geographic boundaries of the U.S., regardless of the producer's nationality. GNP doesn't include goods and services produced by foreign producers, but does include goods and services produced by U.S. firms operating in foreign countries.
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq77/AAdeath/Newdollarbill.jpg)
At this point.
Does it really matter what the hell we call it?
I said back when this thread was started it wasnt a recession but it felt like one.
Now it feels like an outright depression.
Even if it doesnt technically meet the definition of either.
And even if it never does.
I think they are going to invent a whole new word for this one.
I've seen the economy go bad a few times in my 47 years.
I cant say from a personal standpoint I've ever seen it worse.
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I paid $1.69 a gallon for gas today...I find that utterly amazing. Just think: when ghi made his trip back in July of this year what the gas prices were.
Mark
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Few times??? There have been more than a few recessions in 47 years. Everyone is "FREAKING OUT" in the economic downturn. We should be fine. The dollar is still strong overseas which points to a positive direction. A lot of investors went overseas and bet the dollar would become weak and lost the crapshoot. They lost a lot of money. When the water is level which should be soon, the economy will improve! Market will be above 10,000 before 4th quarter 2009.
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Few times??? There have been more than a few recessions in 47 years. Everyone is "FREAKING OUT" in the economic downturn. We should be fine. The dollar is still strong overseas which points to a positive direction. A lot of investors went overseas and bet the dollar would become weak and lost the crapshoot. They lost a lot of money. When the water is level which should be soon, the economy will improve! Market will be above 10,000 before 4th quarter 2009.
It was a rhetorical statement.
and I very well know it will eventually turn around again.
Yanno what though.
Not everyone of us can afford for it to take till the 4th quarter of 09.
Maybe your in a position that you can afford to be optimistic.
Im not.
Im sure alot of other people out there arent either.
Maybe your not one of the ones that has had to tell their little girl "dont count on a Christmas this year, ANY Christmas"
I have. Because for me (and alot of other people) that might just happen.
and if it doesnt. It is going to be the most meager Holiday season I've ever experienced in 47 years.
I've only experienced one other time its been this bad.
But fortunately then it was late winter and I only had myself to think about.
Maybe for you this hasnt been a recession.
But for me might as well be called one because its had the same effect as one since the end of July.
And its only gotten much worse.
Even people with money.Who are my usual clients, are hoarding their money.
I hear Retail is expecting a 10% drop in sales this year.
And they label that as "devastating." (Or so I've heard on the radio)
A simple 10% drop would be a godsend for small independent contractors.
Mine is down already 50%. And the next month looks worse. And in fact would be already if it werent for sheer luck on one job thats going to last all of about a week.
So far I've been one of the lucky ones.
I already know of a few that have gone under.
And many more who are in the same position as I.
If this market finds its bottom soon. Hopefully some people will recognise the opportinuties there are to save money right now with people like me.
(You are NEVER going to get home improvement work done cheaper then you can right now)
And I may just be able to hold on by a pubic hair..But just.
If not. Then I may literally loose everything.
Just like alot of other people who are "Freaking out."
But at least I know a trade.
How many people are going to loose their jobs. and outside of the little cubicle they are used to.
Dont know how to do anything else.
Many of them too will loose EVERYTHING.
Not hard to understand why people might be freaking out.
Course if you arent one of us. You wouldnt understand.
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Few times??? There have been more than a few recessions in 47 years. Everyone is "FREAKING OUT" in the economic downturn. We should be fine. The dollar is still strong overseas which points to a positive direction. A lot of investors went overseas and bet the dollar would become weak and lost the crapshoot. They lost a lot of money. When the water is level which should be soon, the economy will improve! Market will be above 10,000 before 4th quarter 2009.
You have an oversimplistic understanding of the economy.
The only reason the dollar is strong right now is because the other currencies have been hammered. It isn't because the US is in great shape I assure you.
Gas is cheap now because of lower demand not because everything is fine.
I hope your prediction is correct but somehow I doubt it.
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Recession my &&&&
this is going to be a depression
And yeah - i blame booooosh
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Well,
It appears we have been in a recession :D
And, it was well underway at the time of the original post according to the NBER.
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And yeah - i blame booooosh
of course you do - don't blame those who were actually tasked with the oversight ..... :rolleyes:
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Few times??? There have been more than a few recessions in 47 years. Everyone is "FREAKING OUT" in the economic downturn. We should be fine. The dollar is still strong overseas which points to a positive direction. A lot of investors went overseas and bet the dollar would become weak and lost the crapshoot. They lost a lot of money. When the water is level which should be soon, the economy will improve! Market will be above 10,000 before 4th quarter 2009.
everyone is freaking out for a good reason. my dad works for a company that supplies parts for dodge and GM, who are laying off A LOT of people right now, and guess what, my dads head is on the chopping block. my mom already got layed off from her job. And if that happens not only do we not get the holidays, but we dont have a house either or cars or anything. we are poor enough right now and are struggling to support the basic lifestyle we do now. The only reason i play this game is because i HAD a job of my own until a couple of weeks ago. My family isnt the only one in this situation. Oh... it will be better in the 4th wuarter of 2009.. mmm that is great and all but what about next month.
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Yes Bush is to blame for recession just like CO2 is to blame for rising temperatures. :rolleyes:
Yes Challenge I'm pretty sure 6.5 trillion dollars wasted by Bush's administration have nothing to do with it :noid
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Yes Challenge I'm pretty sure 6.5 trillion dollars wasted by Bush's administration have nothing to do with it :noid
actually it doesn't
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Yes Challenge I'm pretty sure 6.5 trillion dollars wasted by Bush's administration have nothing to do with it :noid
And exactly what DID it have to do with it?
Show the connection.
I can draw a much more direct line right to congress within two links
1 link to draw the line. the second to show all involved
Hint. each has been posted here before
And neither is from a right leaning site.
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Pretty much cracked me up when I saw the announcement today....if it wasn't so sobering.
"Oh... By the way... we've been in a recession since fourth quarter 2007."
Then to go back, on here, and see all the ridicule some people got for posting that very same assessment. This thread was started 8 months after we were already in a recession, in July of 2008, which was followed by many vitriolic posts downplaying poster's intelligence, many by Gunslinger himself.... as well as his following of merry tardlets.
<S> Gunslinger, for proving how smart you really are. :rofl:aok I for one wish you had been right, but obviously you were not.
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Moray....Read the definition. This is interpretation. 2 consec quarters of neg GDP
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Whoops!
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/economy/recession/index.htm?cnn=yes (http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/economy/recession/index.htm?cnn=yes)
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Moray....Read the definition. This is interpretation. 2 consec quarters of neg GDP
From Wikipedia:
A recession is a contraction phase of the business cycle, or "a period of reduced economic activity."[1][2] The U.S. based National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) defines a recession more specifically as "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP growth, real personal income, employment (non-farm payrolls), industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales."[3]
Some business & investment glossaries add to the general definition a rule of thumb that recessions are often indicated by two consecutive quarters of negative growth (or contraction) of gross domestic product (GDP).[4][5]
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I'll let the real economists decide. And NBER made the call.
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Whoops!
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/economy/recession/index.htm?cnn=yes (http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/economy/recession/index.htm?cnn=yes)
the most relevant part of that article
"The NBER is a private group of leading economists charged with dating the start and end of economic downturns. It typically takes a long time after the start of a recession to declare its start because of the need to look at final readings of various economic measures.
The NBER said that the deterioration in the labor market throughout 2008 was one key reason why it decided to state that the recession began last year.
Employers have trimmed payrolls by 1.2 million jobs in the first 10 months of this year. On Friday, economists are predicting the government will report a loss of another 325,000 jobs for November.
The NBER also looks at real personal income, industrial production as well as wholesale and retail sales. All those measures reached a peak between November 2007 and June 2008, the NBER said.
In addition, the NBER also considers the gross domestic product, which is the reading most typically associated with a recession in the general public.
Many people erroneously believe that a recession is defined by two consecutive quarters of economic activity declining. That has yet to take place during this recession"
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This may just be arguing semantics, but the 2 quarters of negative growth thing is not an "erroneous" definition. It is the original definition. There is no doubt the economy is struggling; but frankly, they just decided to change the definition to fit these particular circumstances.
I am sure they have their reasons for doing so.
"Founded in 1920, the National Bureau of Economic Research is a private, nonprofit, nonpartisan research organization dedicated to promoting a greater understanding of how the economy works. The NBER is committed to undertaking and disseminating unbiased economic research among public policymakers, business professionals, and the academic community." --from the NBER website, since the CNN article seemed to erroneously define who they were.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, btw, I fully agree the economy is screwed, I just wonder why they are so determined to use that particular word, especially since just the use of it erodes confidence.
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America just entered a reccesion i thought? like today i thought it did..
I am not sure
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Rgr, they repeated it on CNN all evening.
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of course you do - don't blame those who were actually tasked with the oversight ..... :rolleyes:
600 million a day without anything to back it up...yeah blame someone else
ostrich people
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In macroeconomics, a recession is a decline in a country's gross domestic product (GDP), or negative real economic growth, for two or more successive quarters of a year.
An alternative, less accepted definition of recession is a downward trend in the rate of actual GDP growth as promoted by the business-cycle dating committee of the National Bureau of Economic Research.[1] That private organization defines a recession more ambiguously as "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months." A recession has many attributes that can occur simultaneously and can include declines in coincident measures of activity such as employment, investment, and corporate profits. A severe or prolonged recession is referred to as an economic depression.
Real gross domestic product -- the output of goods and services produced by labor and property
located in the United States -- decreased at an annual rate of 0.5 percent in the third quarter of 2008,
(that is, from the second quarter to the third quarter), according to preliminary estimates released by the
Bureau of Economic Analysis. In the second quarter, real GDP increased 2.8 percent.
LOL 4th quarter not finished 2008
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This is all semantics, it is a recession. That should be obvious. It's like the Captain of the Titanic arguing that the ship was merely suffering a delay due to technical issues and is not sinking. Just ignore all the water sloshing around the upper decks. :rolleyes:
This is just the start of it.
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600 million a day without anything to back it up...yeah blame someone else
ostrich people
nope, just blaming the people who caused the latest (and largest) bottom to drop out by not doing their jobs .. the oversight committee - look them up - it's the same group of clowns who now say they can save us LOL
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nope, just blaming the people who caused the latest (and largest) bottom to drop out by not doing their jobs .. the oversight committee - look them up - it's the same group of clowns who now say they can save us LOL
you mean the guys who found this?
"Wasteful Spending by Halliburton and KBR in Iraq: $2.7 billion. Investigations by the Committee have documented wasteful spending by KBR, the former Halliburton subsidiary, under the contract to support the troops (LOGCAP) and the contract to Restore Iraqi Oil (RIO). During a February 2007 hearing, the Committee learned that the Defense Contract Audit Agency identified over $10 billion in questioned and unsupported costs in Iraq, with $2.7 billion from the two KBR contracts alone.3 Earlier Committee investigations found specific examples of unchecked spending by KBR, such as billing taxpayers $45 for a case of soda and $100 to wash a bag of laundry, inflating costs for gasoline delivery, and abandoning new trucks that had broken down instead of maintaining them.4"
http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20081003181709.pdf
good old Haliburton,,,, ostrich people
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This is all semantics, it is a recession. That should be obvious. It's like the Captain of the Titanic arguing that the ship was merely suffering a delay due to technical issues and is not sinking. Just ignore all the water sloshing around the upper decks. :rolleyes:
This is just the start of it.
Well said. "The ship is not sinking, which is defined as blah, blah, blah. The water you see does not fit that definition. Therefore the ship is not sinking." :devil
When I hear a definition argument, I suspect that a new definition is needed or the term is becoming irrelevant.
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you mean the guys who found this?
"Wasteful Spending by Halliburton and KBR in Iraq: $2.7 billion. Investigations by the Committee have documented wasteful spending by KBR, the former Halliburton subsidiary, under the contract to support the troops (LOGCAP) and the contract to Restore Iraqi Oil (RIO). During a February 2007 hearing, the Committee learned that the Defense Contract Audit Agency identified over $10 billion in questioned and unsupported costs in Iraq, with $2.7 billion from the two KBR contracts alone.3 Earlier Committee investigations found specific examples of unchecked spending by KBR, such as billing taxpayers $45 for a case of soda and $100 to wash a bag of laundry, inflating costs for gasoline delivery, and abandoning new trucks that had broken down instead of maintaining them.4"
http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20081003181709.pdf
good old Haliburton,,,, ostrich people
what does that have to do with the recession? zero - nothing.
thanks for playing
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what does that have to do with the recession? zero - nothing.
thanks for playing
600 million a day - without anything to back it up - China stops buying worthless government backed papers- mortgage securities, why? take a guess - wasteful government spending...next - since China no longer wants to spend their money supporting our government - the financial markets come unraveled, wasteful government spending is shown to be the largest factor in the unravelment of financial securities backed trading, if monies not available to back up fed - how many trillions are we in debt now ?.... thanks for sitting on the bench and cheering for the wrong team
Game was way over - long time ago
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600 million a day - without anything to back it up - China stops buying worthless government backed papers- mortgage securities, why? take a guess - wasteful government spending...next - since China no longer wants to spend their money supporting our government - the financial markets come unraveled, wasteful government spending is shown to be the largest factor in the unravelment of financial securities backed trading, if monies not available to back up fed - how many trillions are we in debt now ?.... thanks for sitting on the bench and cheering for the wrong team
Game was way over - long time ago
if gov wasteful spending created recessions, we'd been in one forever ..
it was easy credit that sunk this ship as the ones in charge of its oversight were asleep at the wheel .. you know the ones that want to save us now...