Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zazen13 on July 29, 2008, 04:38:35 PM
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For you, a very experienced and skilled player, SA comes almost mandatory, near levels of instinct, that your choice of engagements are never bothered by the actual possibility of being shot-down from the sky. But like I said, guys like you forget that the rest 70~80% of the MA population, the average guys of the world, cannot all be like you. For them, gaining victories and having fun in the air comes with a premise that THEY HAVE TO SURVIVE THAT LONG TO BE ABLE TO HAVE ANY KIND OF FUN in the first place.
To them, speed (or rather, the ability to choose the engagements of their liking, and be able to disengage at will, that can be provided by being in speedy plane) is not a passive factor. It is THE primary factor, and an absolutely most important factor that keeps them in the air.
-Kweassa replying to Steve about the Pony's strengths and how people fly them differently...
This is so incredibly important to understand when discussing practically anything on these boards. It just amazes me that so few people understand this. I did ALOT of training back in the day, when Moses was in diapers, and I've seen literally thousands of players grow from complete N00bs to highly experienced players. I can categorically promise you the following is as true as gravity holds your arse to the planet...
Not Everyone...
1) Learns at the same rate.
2) Begins with the same innate conception of gunnery and flying respectively.
3) Has the same maximum potential gunnery and flying skill respectively.
4) Interprets air combat experiences or adapts to them the same way over time.
I know hundreds of people who have been flying many years and really try their butts off, but are still poor to mediocre at gunnery and/or flying. Conversely, I know hundreds of people who had never touched a joystick in their lives until playing, but within a year were "Air Gods" at gunnery and/or flying with very little effort.
Stang, is a great example, he was still a teenager when he started, but I noticed him right away, he stuck out like a virgin in a brothel. I told Soup (4510), "That kid is going to be way better than me one day, you just watch". Well, it didn't take long for that "one day" to happen. Within a year Stang could fly circles around me, he was already better than I ever thought about being and I had 8-9'ish years (about a million air combat fighter hours) of flying experience on him. It all just made perfect sense to him right from the beginning.
I'm an example of another common type. By the 3rd day of playing AW I was making shots that made people shake their heads in awe. I was popping people from insane angles, never really having to outfly them to kill them. Deflection gunnery to me was like wiping your butt. In my mind, if you could hit your bunghole with a piece of toilet paper you could hit someone at 30 degrees deflection while inverted and doing the dishes. Shooting was so easy for me I never really had to do any fancy flying to kill with great efficiency. As a result I rarely landed kills in the beginning because I'd eventually get backed into a corner and outflown even though I flew mostly Spits and 109s at the time. However, I became a decent flyer eventually, but never truly great and in almost 20 years, with much effort, I've only grown from decent to merely above average in the flying department. But, I'm still one of the more gifted shotmakers in the game even though I'm much older and half-blind now.
The point is we are all unique, we simply can't say anything vaguely close to.."Well, Steve can do X,Y,Z in a Pony so should RandomGuy13, if not now, eventually". The whole is greater than the sum of its parts when it comes to the plane/pilot dynamic in an air combat game. You have the plane, which is a hardcoded bit of imaginary data portrayed as a cartoon to us and you have the individual pilot which is an incredibly unique blend of innate talent, acquired skills, experience and perspective. Combine the two and you have an almost infinite variety of potential styles, approaches and skill levels, even when comparing people who fly just one type of aircraft like the P51.
In the final analysis there's only two measures that can be compared between pilots...Effectiveness and Fun...You are either effective at killing people within a reasonable period of time, however you choose to do it (except vulching), or you're not, it's pretty simple and quantifiable. The same goes for fun, you're either having fun or not. If you're not having fun flying a certain way, fly another way. If you find dying un-fun, fly accordingly. If you find flying by the seat of your pants fun, even if it means getting horrendously defiled by a pack of ganging lamers from time to time, do that until the sun falls from the sky. Balancing fun and effectiveness, which are sometimes mutually enhancing or can be mutually exclusive, is the real goal of everyone who truly loves cartoon air combat. But, it almost never equates to the same exact thing for any two people, it's almost like your fingerprint in that respect...
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Nice :aok
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You know, I agree with this.
I agree with how you point out the facts, and skill levels etc...
But, one thing that does bug me is sometimes one persons idea of 'fun' translates into someone elses idea of 'I'm about to shoot my computer and hope that it hits this guy'...
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Balancing fun and effectiveness, which are sometimes mutually enhancing or can be mutually exclusive, is the real goal of everyone who truly loves cartoon air combat.
Great write-up, all very very true.
The above quote is probaly the truest statement of all and that balancing act is probably the toughest thing to accomplish at times.
:salute
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agreed, and true! :aok
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But, one thing that does bug me is sometimes one persons idea of 'fun' translates into someone elses idea of 'I'm about to shoot my computer and hope that it hits this guy'...
Well, this is a "war-game". We are supposed to, in a general, (NOT PERSONAL) way thwart the efforts of our cartoon adversaries. For example, when I wield "The Angry Middle Finger of God" (37mm AA) to destroy vulchers and porkers I am having a lot of fun, but I am also inhibiting the fun for those guys I kill if vulching and porking is their sole source of amusement. But, this is the source of all 'conflicts'. Without conflict derived from opposition of wills no one would actually have any fun. There would no longer be an emotionally charged motivation for fighting if no one had a chance to apply their skills and exert their will to affect the outcome of the other's experience relative to their own. The secret is to learn how to have fun whether you "win or lose" then, as if by magic, you find conflict and fun can amicably coexist.
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Well, this is a "war-game". We are supposed to, in a general way, thwart the efforts of our cartoon adversaries. For example, when I wield "The Angry Middle Finger of God" (37mm AA) to destroy vulchers and porkers I am having a lot of fun, but I am also inhibiting the fun for those guys I kill if vulching and porking is their motivation for playing. But, this is the source of all 'conflicts'. Without conflict derived from opposition of wills no one would actually have any fun. There would no longer be a motivation for fighting if no one had a chance to exert their will and affect the outcome of the other's experience relative to their own. The secret is to learn how to have fun whether you win or lose, then magically, you find conflict and fun can amicably coexist.
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Yes, but, take for example, the DA...
99.9% of the people are having a good time getting shot down furballing... but that .1% likes to come in and BnZ or vulch...
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Yes, but, take for example, the DA...
99.9% of the people are having a good time getting shot down furballing... but that .1% likes to come in and BnZ or vulch...
What you are talking about is griefers. They are totally different animals. They don't fit the mold because they are wired completely differently than most people. Most people learn what they enjoy doing then consciously place themselves into environments and situations most conducive to whatever pleasure that is.
Griefers don't have any concept of what they enjoy. They are the clinical incarnation of a sociopath personality. They perceive other people like you and I would a kitchen chair, inanimate and soulless. In their minds they are the only valid entity in the universe. The only true pleasure they can obtain is vampiric, they instinctively seek to fill their own gaping void, your pain is their pleasure. The more they can make you react to their willful destruction of your fun, the more satisfied they are. This is even true to the extent that a griefer will do something they absolutely despise for hours/days/months/years, even if it's insanely boring and tedious to them, if there's even the tiniest possibility they may eventually have the opportunity to sadistically "get-off" on your displeasure with them for ultimately ruining your fun....
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Very good post ZAZEN, a little creepy at one point but very good.
Our squad has the full range of players as described in this post. it may even be why we are fairly successful. Some of us are very good at bombing and others JABO or GV'ing. Some are pretty good at all aspects of the game and others just like to come here and have fun working as a team to accomplish objectives. I'd have to say we have a very well rounded squad and can definitely take something from this thread.
Deflection gunnery to me was like wiping your butt. In my mind, if you could hit your bunghole with a piece of toilet paper
Almost QUOTE
Skyrocks don't have any concept of what they enjoy, they are the clinical incarnation of a sociopath personality. They perceive other people like you and I would a kitchen chair, inanimate and soulless. In their minds they are the only valid entity in the universe. The only true pleasure they can obtain is vampiric, they instinctively seek to fill their void, your pain is their pleasure. The more they can make you react to their willful destruction of your fun, the more satisfied they are. This is even true to the extent that a Skyrock will do something they absolutely despise for hours/days/months/years, even if its insanely boring and tedious to them, if there's even the tiniest possibility they may have the opportunity to sadistically "get-off" on your displeasure with them for ruining your fun....
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Very good post ZAZEN, a little creepy at one point but very good.
Our squad has the full range of players as described in this post. it may even be why we are fairly successful. Some of us are very good at bombing and others JABO or GV'ing. Some are pretty good at all aspects of the game and others just like to come here and have fun working as a team to accomplish objectives. I'd have to say we have a very well rounded squad and can definitely take something from this thread.
Yup, if we were all cookie cutter versions of each other, in various stages of baking based purely on tenure, the game would not be nearly as fun or social as it is. The fact that we can interlock our infinitely diverse talents, skills and proclivities creates a macrocosmic expression of ourselves perfected. Our individual deficiencies compensated for by the gifts of the others in a symbiotic way.
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Part that sucks for me Zaz, is that I usually have too short an attention span to for purposeless tool-shedding, flying heavy bombers in general, tank-town captures, even waiting for lemmings at vulches, etc. So the only way I have left to piss in the other guy's cornflakes is shooting, either in a plane or a GV. And you'd think the BEST way to ruin their day good is by defeating them with correct ACM, but no, half of 'em will send you a <S>. And then you gotta <S> them back, just to keep up appearances. It plumb ruins my vampiric schachenfroed.
:devil
P.S. You all ARE objects like my kitchen chair...but thats okay, I LIKE my kitchen chairs, doesn't everyone? :rofl
Griefers don't have any concept of what they enjoy. They are the clinical incarnation of a sociopath personality. They perceive other people like you and I would a kitchen chair, inanimate and soulless. In their minds they are the only valid entity in the universe. The only true pleasure they can obtain is vampiric, they instinctively seek to fill their own gaping void, your pain is their pleasure. The more they can make you react to their willful destruction of your fun, the more satisfied they are. This is even true to the extent that a griefer will do something they absolutely despise for hours/days/months/years, even if it's insanely boring and tedious to them, if there's even the tiniest possibility they may have the opportunity to sadistically "get-off" on your displeasure with them for ultimately ruining your fun....
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Great write up ZAZEN, :aok think about how it would be if everyone flew the same whether it be good or bad, this game would suck balls! If everyone flew really great it would be a 400 person stalemate on any given night :P
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So the only way I have left to piss in the other guy's cornflakes is shooting, either in a plane or a GV. And you'd think the BEST way to ruin their day good is by defeating them with correct ACM, but no, half of 'em will send you a <S>. And then you gotta <S> them back, just to keep up appearances. It plumb ruins my vampiric schachenfroed.
Sorry, BnZ, sadly for the griefer in that situation, the victim has mastered the reconciliation of conflict and fun, losing a fight alone won't ruin their fun. You'll have to figure out another way to successfully suck from them their fun-loving life-force. :cry
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Great write up ZAZEN, :aok think about how it would be if everyone flew the same whether it be good or bad, this game would suck balls! If everyone flew really great it would be a 400 person stalemate on any given night :P
You're exactly right, it's a subtle but extremely important fundamental concept to understand. Once you understand it, you'll be far more tolerant of everyone you encounter as you realize everything that makes you vastly different is actually the kaleidoscopic manifestation of that which makes you exactly the same in essence...This goes for life in general not just this game...
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Excellent post.
Leads me to wonder what type of category the players that shoot you hanging in the silk for fun fall into.
Does that also translate to how they treat people on the outside world?
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Excellent post.
Leads me to wonder what type of category the players that shoot you hanging in the silk for fun fall into.
Does that also translate to how they treat people on the outside world?
Ty Sir :salute.
I think we would be making an incredible leap to say someone would necessarily translate their "antisocial" and "unsportsmanlike" activities to the real world. This is, after all, the internet. People with weak moral fiber do not feel contrained by higher morals or societal values in this impersonal online medium. In recent sociological research there has been studies that conclude that casting off the shackles of ethical behavior online makes it easier for an individual to do so in real life. It weakens the control the superego has over the id in Freudian terms. Ultimately this results in pure hedonism, where personally gratifying pleasure seeking becomes the means to its own end, unfettered by moral constraint. If this is true and this can affect the masses, especially young people, before their internal moral compass has fully developed, the possibilities for our future are frightening. Ever watch the movie, "Clockwork Orange"? :O
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You know Zazen you should gather your thoughts on the game overall and put them on a web site, your always a great read.
Very insightful stuff :salute
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You know Zazen you should gather your thoughts on the game overall and put them on a web site, your always a great read.
Very insightful stuff :salute
Thank-You sir. :salute
I write first and formost to entertain, then to inform, then as a creative outlet for myself...So, even if you don't agree with me, I want it to be at least entertaining and worth the time it takes to read it.
Some would beg to differ with you though on the quality of my ideas... :huh
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Loved it. (Clockwork Orange)
I think we are in tons of trouble because we see this behavior everyday,sometimes not paying much attention to it. Moral compass has become skewed. Some see their behavior as ok when to others it is completely unacceptable. I try to keep my childrens morals rightly tuned but I am afraid they lose it when they are not around me.
With that said,do we really know what is moral and whats is not? :salute
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Thank-You sir. :salute
I write first and formost to entertain, then to inform, then as a creative outlet for myself...So, even if you don't agree with me, I want it to be at least entertaining and worth the time it takes to read it.
Some would beg to differ with you though on the quality of my ideas... :huh
Your insight into the game is from your prespective, i don't always agree, but your right more then not, at least i agree more then disagree may be a better way to put it. But you always entertain and offer good info, perhaps spun a little to your own taste but good info non the less.
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Very nice write-up.
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Very good post Zazen, well said.
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With that said,do we really know what is moral and whats is not? :salute
Well, morality is largely developed individually through socialization. Therefore, it is largely reflective of societal values. Therefore, there is no absolute societal morality, as societies' value systems differ widely across the planet. That's where religion, or if you prefer, philosophical belief systems, come in. The function of religion is to place a "higher" moral template upon the societal value system. These combined with some form of legal system of judgement and enforcement combine to create the moral framework individuals are expected to operate within. Religious morality is the more influential moral force historically because it holds dominion over the absolutes of universal, "rights and wrongs" that know no societal bounds. It does this by establishing a cause and effect relationship between your actions in life toward others and your soul's ultimate fate upon death. Legal and societal morality are not absolute, they are generally based upon popular consensus, tyrannical imposition or some combination of the two.
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Probably better you and I chat here and not on Vox. That could get ugly with all the players having to listen to us :D
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Probably better you and I chat here and not on Vox. That could get ugly with all the players having to listen to us :D
Yea, it's always best not to get me talking philosophically, you'll have to slap the crap out of me to shut me up... :rock
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Good post. :aok
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Zazen preach on my bruttha.
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fun and effectivnes....fun and effectiveness.......I gotta think about this................
<S>999000
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Very good post Zazen, well said.
Ty Sir. :salute
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That makes a lot of sense :aok
Basically I will fly like crap and shoot poorly forever....at least I know now.
for a while I thought my ineptness was from not trying as hard as I could :cry
now I realize I never had a chance to be the best.....but that's fine, I still have fun :)
and when all is said and done, that's the only reason I'm here.
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That makes a lot of sense :aok
Basically I will fly like crap and shoot poorly forever....at least I know now.
for a while I thought my ineptness was from not trying as hard as I could :cry
now I realize I never had a chance to be the best.....but that's fine, I still have fun :)
and when all is said and done, that's the only reason I'm here.
The confrontational nature of AH makes performance disparities we would not think twice about in any non-confrontational activity seem far more important. As long as you are maximizing your effectiveness as much as possible while still having fun, you win! It's really that simple. Everything else is just noise.
I know many super aces who could fly me into the dirt 99/100 times, their effectiveness is ironclad, but they are miserable in the game. They want to have fun, but they seem to go out of their way to put themselves into bad situations then blame everyone else for what inevitably happens.
I also know many mediocre pilots who struggle for a moderate level of effectiveness they believe they should be capable of maintaining. But, they never lose sight of the element of fun. Unlike the first example, they discarded the worthless "hapless victim" mentality. To these folks any meager success is a source of much fun.
So, being the most talented/skilled can actually be your undoing, the high bar of effectiveness can cause them to get distracted by it and lose sight of the fun-factor. It's much more simple for the humble mediocre type to take things in stride and not let frustration ruin the fun of playing while still being as effective as realistically possible.
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Zazen preach on my bruttha.
I'm trying to not make this a sermon...Does it sound like preaching? I hope not... :lol
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I'm trying to not make this a sermon...Does it sound like preaching? I hope not... :lol
I knew there was a reason i dropped in here every once in awhile. I just knew someday, someone would post a thread that just tells it like it is and makes perfect sense.
You Da Man!!!!! :salute!!!!!!!!!!!
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I knew there was a reason i dropped in here every once in awhile. I just knew someday, someone would post a thread that just tells it like it is and makes perfect sense.
You Da Man!!!!! :salute!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank-Ya Sir! :salute I am living proof that even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then... :rofl
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Zazen , < S > on this post it helps me understand how lots of folks think about what they do in this game , as for me I'm the medicore at best but still when that every so often kill on some hot shot comes down and this little squirrell gets his beloved acorn , it tastes great and a big huge smile ( a S*** eatin grin if you will ) makes it all good in the world in which I live , and I still have fun , even though hot shot may get me 10 more times . Besides there are alot of very nice people I have met that makes this all worth it from all sides/countrys . Thanks for this Zazen.
Nutte :rock
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I'm an example of another common type. By the 3rd day of playing AW I was making shots that made people shake their heads in awe. I was popping people from insane angles, never really having to outfly them to kill them.
I know that feeling. After 3 years, some folks were shaking their heads about my game play as well. They were wondering how anyone could suck that bad...and keep playing. :)
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Good write up zazen, but does it make me a bad person if I enjoy making goon's lives miserable?
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I know that feeling. After 3 years, some folks were shaking their heads about my game play as well. They were wondering how anyone could suck that bad...and keep playing. :)
And some are still wondering.
(ducks)
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Good write up zazen, but does it make me a bad person if I enjoy making goon's lives miserable?
So long as the goon driver has successfully reconciled conflict vs. fun it shouldn't be a problem...
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Zazen , < S > on this post it helps me understand how lots of folks think about what they do in this game , as for me I'm the medicore at best but still when that every so often kill on some hot shot comes down and this little squirrell gets his beloved acorn , it tastes great and a big huge smile ( a S*** eatin grin if you will ) makes it all good in the world in which I live , and I still have fun , even though hot shot may get me 10 more times . Besides there are alot of very nice people I have met that makes this all worth it from all sides/countrys . Thanks for this Zazen.
Nutte :rock
Exactly, I'm really glad you got that subtlety. Allow me to paint a picture for others who may not have...
It's kind of ironic but, the more effective you are the less being effective or increasing effectiveness tends to, in and of itself, create fun. It quickly reaches the point of diminishing returns in that respect. That's why a lot of really effective players get burned out and quit. Raising the bar of effectiveness is what they found fun, once they plateaued, while very effective, they stopped having fun. They could not find another fun motivation that could supplant the obsolete one, so they ultimately failed in keeping effectiveness & fun balanced.
The opposite is true for a person who is relatively inneffective. Not only does their effectiveness tend to increase at a faster rate per unit time, but even moderate, temporary success is a source of great fun. Because an ineffective player's fun is not not likely directly tied to "win/loss" outcomes they tend to have fun in a wider variety of ways and are largely immune to the "hapless victim syndrome" a more effective player is more apt to be prone to. Of course, there is always the possibility that the ineffective player is so much so for so long that they have a really hard time having fun and end up quitting in despair. But, in a game with as much diversity as AH, almost everyone finds something they find both fun and are effective enough at they can have fun doing it without getting that discouraged.
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I agree with ya about everyone being different. Like anything, some people have to work hard at it, where others it comes easy. Fly for what works for ya is fine, except I believe it should always be a challenge. If you start out in a LA7, or Zeke, and get good in it, challenge yourself in a different plane. Most of us older guys have done the "Kill em all" in a hotrod. How many can ya kill before it becomes stale? I think the best way to keep it exciting and challenging is finding a plane, that matches your style of flying, that teeters on the edge of success and failure, on every move you make. That keeps the player sharp, and also gives some of the newer guys a chance.
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I agree with ya about everyone being different. Like anything, some people have to work hard at it, where others it comes easy. Fly for what works for ya is fine, except I believe it should always be a challenge. If you start out in a LA7, or Zeke, and get good in it, challenge yourself in a different plane. Most of us older guys have done the "Kill em all" in a hotrod. How many can ya kill before it becomes stale? I think the best way to keep it exciting and challenging is finding a plane, that matches your style of flying, that teeters on the edge of success and failure, on every move you make. That keeps the player sharp, and also gives some of the newer guys a chance.
Some live the, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", saying. Some don't, some want to do something different all the time, it's what they find fun. So long as doing what you do is fun, "You Win!"
Here's an example that is actually true...
I go to a Mexican restaurant called, "On the Border". I love their Chicken Fajitas. I don't even look at the menu, I always get Chicken Fajitas. I've been going there once a week for over 10 years. I have no doubt their Enchiladas are tasty, I would probably enjoy those too. But, I am in a perfect state of happiness with the Chicken Fajitas. I look forward to them just as much this week as I did 10 years ago.
Some people would think I was a loony bird for always getting the same thing (my wife does). Some people would want to sample every dish on the menu. Some people would get burned out on Chicken Fajitas quickly and puke at the mere sight of them after awhile. I certainly wouldn't expect everyone else to only eat Chicken Fajitas. But, I also don't want to be told I have to eat something I potentially find less 'fun' to eat because it bothers you I always eat Chicken Fajitas.
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The opposite is true for a person who is relatively inneffective. Not only does their effectiveness tend to increase at a faster rate per unit time, but even moderate, temporary success is a source of great fun. Because an ineffective player's fun is not not likely directly tied to "win/loss" outcomes they tend to have fun in a wider variety of ways and are largely immune to the "hapless victim syndrome" a more effective player is more apt to be prone to. Of course, there is always the possibility that the ineffective player is so much so for so long that they have a really hard time having fun and end up quitting in despair. But, in a game with as much diversity as AH, almost everyone finds something they find both fun and are effective enough at they can have fun doing it without getting that discouraged.
Throw us a Scooby Snack every now and then and we will just keep smiling, trying, and flying. Great post Zazen.
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Excellent post Zaz ... probably the best you have ever posted.
I think that some of the angst that some bring to the BBS, in regards to "fighting", is that we (and I include myself) have a hard time understanding those who don't aspire to grab the "brass ring" ... or at least try to grab it.
"It's too hard (or their too lazy), so I just might as well run around straight at people and try to HO the crap out of them".
This, to me, is not a case of getting to a point of realization that they have maxed their own personal skills, but rather innate laziness.
I have always aspired to be able to beat the likes of Fester and Leviathn and "all be damned" in my personal pursuit. I use those two because that was the "who's who" of AH when I first started. I am sure there are many more, like you pointed out (Furball, Stang, etc), they could hand me my arse in seconds even tho I have many more hours into this game than them, but my original inspiration came from those 2.
There came a point, and it was quite awhile ago, that I realized that I just don't posses "what it takes" to get to that level ... and I am ok with that ... but on the other hand, every time I fly and run into guys that can beat me, I still work at what it will take to beat them. I am always looking for ways to improve.
I agree with all that you have said, but I would also like to feel that what you have portrayed is hopefully not condoning to give up on trying to always better yourself in this game.
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I think we would be making an incredible leap to say someone would necessarily translate their "antisocial" and "unsportsmanlike" activities to the real world.
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:confused:
For some reason I have a hard time seeing zerofire being 'social' and 'sportsmanlike'...even in the real world... :)
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There came a point, and it was quite awhile ago, that I realized that I just don't posses "what it takes" to get to that level ... and I am ok with that ... but on the other hand, every time I fly and run into guys that can beat me, I still work at what it will take to beat them. I am always looking for ways to improve.
I agree with all that you have said, but I would also like to feel that what you have portrayed is hopefully not condoning to give up on trying to always better yourself in this game.
Thanks Slappy. :salute
I'm glad you went there. I did say everyone has a variable and unique maximum potential. This is true of anything in life. We are all were fed the myth when we were kids that we could be anything we wanted in life. At some point, as life goes on and doors close, you realize this was actually a lie. We all have gifts and we all have deficiencies. We also all have unique perspectives based on life experience, memory, conditioned responses and personality. All of these factors collectively determine our maximum potential at any endeavor.
The problem with maximum potential is no one ever knows when they get there. You can't know because, even though you've been plateaued for years, you could get better if you met a certain person, read a certain book or had a particularly enlightening fight where you experienced an epiphany etc...So, it's kind of like groping in the dark, coming up to what you think is a wall, then one day someone turns on a light and you realize that what you thought was a wall was actually a door to a whole new world you can now walk through.
I'll use a personal example...I am a very good pool player, I have been playing pool for over 20 years. It just all made perfect sense to me from the beginning, I got very good, very fast. Then at some point I realized I was not getting any better. Some people in the upper echelon would almost always beat me. Then one day I played this really old snooker player, we played for 14 hours straight. During the match I had an awakening, in Japanese it's called Satori, a flash of enlightened wisdom. Overnight, after 11 years of not improving, in spite of lots of practice, I suddenly got a lot better.
The point is, while I tell you everyone has a unique maximum potential, and this is actually true. Don't ever close your mind to the possibility that what you believe is your arrival at your maximum potential is actually a door disguised as a wall just waiting for someone or something to turn on the light so you can walk through.
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Zazen in no way was I refering to preaching.
In my own way I was expressing my agreement with your thoughts.
Well done.
Btw I flew a lot with <Lugs and <LT also. Never joined the squad but enjoyed their company.
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Don't ever close the door to the possibility what you think is your maximum potential is actually a door disguised as a wall just waiting for someone or something to turn on the light so you can walk through.
Amen to that ... :salute
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So long as the goon driver has successfully reconciled conflict vs. fun it shouldn't be a problem...
I would rather that he was really really ticked off. I really love it when they get soo close to their goal only to be snapped back to the brink of reality with a 30mm tatter. In fact I sometimes even condone torture of goons, by allowing them to reach a town that has started to pop. :D
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I would rather that he was really really ticked off. I really love it when they get soo close to their goal only to be snapped back to the brink of reality with a 30mm tatter. In fact I sometimes even condone torture of goons, by allowing them to reach a town that has started to pop. :D
This reminds me of the Eddy Murphy bit where he has the ice cream cone and is taunting the other kids with it... :rofl
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This reminds me of the Eddy Murphy bit where he has the ice cream cone and is taunting the other kids with it... :rofl
Want a lick? Psych!
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Want a lick? Psych!
Oh so true, now that's some funny stuff!!! :rofl :lol :rock
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Then one day I played this really old snooker player, we played for 14 hours straight. During the match I had an awakening, in Japanese it's called Satori, a flash of enlightened wisdom. Overnight, after 11 years of not improving, in spite of lots of practice, I suddenly got a lot better.
I think some people play this game 14 hours every day...myself, I'd SLEEP that much a day if I could, but certainly not AH :D
Anyway, I'd much rather sell my soul to some daemonic entitity for God-like AH abilities (The ability to shoot like Zazen, to make overshoots like Batfink). You know, enough to really make other player's lives a living hell, whether I'm bnz'ing them or furballing them.
But I went down the crossroads last night and petitioned for like, two hours, didn't get anything but mosquito bites, damn you Robert Johnson. (NOT the P-47 pilot). :devil
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I think some people play this game 14 hours every day...myself, I'd SLEEP that much a day if I could, but certainly not AH :D
Anyway, I'd much rather sell my soul to some daemonic entitity for God-like AH abilities (The ability to shoot like Zazen, to make overshoots like Batfink). You know, enough to really make other player's lives a living hell, whether I'm bnz'ing them or furballing them.
But I went down the crossroads last night and petitioned for like, two hours, didn't get anything but mosquito bites, damn you Robert Johnson. (NOT the P-47 pilot). :devil
Yea, I feel for ya. It's not something that another person can tell you. You can't go to Murdr or Rolex in the TA and say, "Show me what I could be one of the best in the game at please..". I was lucky in that my magic gift was as obvious as a dog's balls right from the outset. Articulating my gift was just a simple matter of using it a lot and practicing different shots to add to my mental aiming computer's repertoire. Some gifts also require formal training, like flying skill, to maximize them. Flying is kind of like Kung-Fu, there are moves and sequences of moves and counter-moves all of which are highly coordinated and situational. Gifted flying intuition can only take you so far there, you will have to be formally trained or read an air combat text to maximize it.
It could be worse, I had an old friend in early AW. He was one of the best pilots I have ever seen, he'd be right up there with Levi. He was an amazing TnB guy, he'd seduce you into his best corner speed or out of yours and peel your plane like an overripe banana before you even knew what happened. The problem was he had no SA. He just had a deficiency, he could not keep track of more than 2 planes other than is own, including friendlies. Worse still he was acutely aware of this and became obsessed with what "other" planes were doing..Well you can guess, he would get bushwhacked constantly. Eventually as more players flooded the arena over time he got tired of getting his pitiful SA taken advantage of and quit the game entirely.
That just goes to show, just like the grim reality of my great aim, but only mediocre flying skill. You may find your gift can be a cruel joke too if it happens to be inexorably intertwined with another skill you severely lack in proportion. It happens and it's sad when it does.
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There came a point, and it was quite awhile ago, that I realized that I just don't posses "what it takes" to get to that level ... and I am ok with that ... but on the other hand, every time I fly and run into guys that can beat me, I still work at what it will take to beat them. I am always looking for ways to improve.
And that spot is the best , more fun than thinking you are better than you are , and good enough to make the aces pay attention after the merge .
And you are better than you think you are Slappy .
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I agree completely with learning SA and making it part of your individual doctrine. There's going to be inevitable frustration for a variety of reasons...Ho-ing, vulching, or just doing something stupid. We never find out who our opponents are until you've killed him or he kills you, so you never know who you're up against.
I shot down a noob last night, he was flying southbound, away from his base, into empty ocean. Since it was the end of the night, I tailed him to see how long this would go on. We flew for almost 15 minutes, he'd make gradual turns, rolls, etc. I was never less than 1K away, so it was obvious I was there...we weren't even flying all-out...cruising along...
I almost felt bad for shooting him down, but I did, from 250 meters, straight on his 6. He never looked back, not once. Imagine how that person felt. Maybe he shrugged it off, maybe he called me bad names and wished me ill-will. Maybe he got mad at himself for not checking his six. I'll never know.
I've gotten really ticked off in-game. Not necessarily at another player, but at myself for allowing myself to get cornered, wasting E, or doing something stupid. I've also gotten ticked off at the game. I've flown for years, logged more than 3000 hours of flight time in all sorts of aircraft. I can fly the real-deal with no problems at all, but I SUCK in AH. I never flew AW, but did fly CFS and CFS2 online and was very competitive in those arenas.
There are so many variables that make someone a good, all-around combat pilot. With a game like this, everything from your processor and video card, stick, and keyboard mapping can make a difference. Add to that personalities, aggression or lack thereof, an understanding of ACM and SA (and practicing it!), and a knowledge of the aircraft you're flying, make this mess anything but understandable.
I know, at this point, that chances are I'm going to end up as someone's kill. Once in awhile, I get lucky and run into someone with equal or inferior skills and I land a few myself. I think by virtue of being there and participating, that you can improve by learning from your mistakes. Eventually, you run into someone with superior skills who makes a mistake and you get lucky and land a kill.
To many players, the 'big thing' is to land as many kills as you can before you get shot down. Personally, I'm happy just making it home. I doubt anyone will ever see me landing 3, 4, 5, kills in anything but a GV, but as long as I know I'm improving, I'll continue to play the game.
Jeff
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Anyway, I'd much rather sell my soul to some daemonic entitity for God-like AH abilities
DEAL, just sign on the dotted line. And just for the record, you probably shoot better than me, so no promises, and no refunds. :devil
xoxoxo,
Dread Cthulhu
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Great post Zazen!
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Outstanding post...
I think it hits 100% right on in every aspect. It's funny reading your thoughts because in some ways it mirrors my own but from a different perspective. I simply cant shoot...period. My gunnery is always pitiful, has always been pitiful and inspite of my ongoing positive thinking will invariably be pitiful. I also cant fly for beans. What I mean by that is that I simply cannot find that feather edge that the great duelers can. I'm certainly competent ACM wise and my thinking is reasonably good...if I can out ACM the other guy I'll win pretty easily...but when it gets really down and dirty and reaches that white knuckled on the edge stage I end up like Maxwell Smart {"Missed it by that much :furious :cry :( :furious"} more often then not.
So I've evolved to the point where I realize that my "strength" is "non edge of the envelope ACM" where I can hold my own with 80%+ of the population. My thought are that those with either natural gunnery or the ability to put a given plane "on the edge" progress quickly...but I also think that those who aggressively pursue both "snap shots" and "bleeding edge ACM" learn those easier then those who chase "SA" and "managing the fight". By the time I became a trainer I had reached the conclusion that the F6F, 109F, 205 were the ideal beginners planes because they "forced" both gunnery and "feather edge disipline" to a degree.
But in the end I think your spot on in the sense that each player has to find a style that complements there skill set and provides a reasonable level of satisfaction. Most of us that "burn out" (been there a bunch of times) do so by chasing a "holy grail" of percieved need or by becoming so stale and set in one play style that bordom sets in.
My gut feel is that good gunnery is the great equalizer, a good shot will beat a great stick most of the time and a great shot will beat a great stick almost 100% of the time. ACM trumps good SA...and "edge of the envelope" trumps ACM most of the time.
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There are so many variables that make someone a good, all-around combat pilot. With a game like this, everything from your processor and video card, stick, and keyboard mapping can make a difference. Add to that personalities, aggression or lack thereof, an understanding of ACM and SA (and practicing it!), and a knowledge of the aircraft you're flying, make this mess anything but understandable.
This is all very true, the plane/player dynamic is complex to the point of being unfathomable. Literally things you wouldn't even think of going into how you fight in AH actually have an enormous impact.
For example, my father was a research doctor (he's dead now), he was incredibly intelligent. I guess because of this he was extremely hard on me academically. His motto was, "Anything less than total perfection is complete failure". I can't remember when he first told me that, but it's one of my earliest memories of him. I can't tell you how many times I got in trouble because I only made a 98% on a test instead of 100% and I don't even want to talk about failing to do or getting incorrect an extra credit question on an exam <shudder>.
Now, even though he's gone, that whole mentality is infused into my very soul. It manifests itself in AH, blatantly affecting how I play. I have to be perfect, I hate letting people kill me, I hate missing shots, I hate anything less than unmitigated perfection. It just drives me crazy. No matter what plane I fly, who I fly with, or what type of fight it is, that's always superimposed upon it. I am sure if we all did some introspection we'd all discover at least one quirk from our personality that translates into a very unique approach to air combat, something that no other person likely manifests.
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Outstanding post...
I think it hits 100% right on in every aspect. It's funny reading your thoughts because in some ways it mirrors my own but from a different perspective. I simply cant shoot...period. My gunnery is always pitiful, has always been pitiful and inspite of my ongoing positive thinking will invariably be pitiful. I also cant fly for beans. What I mean by that is that I simply cannot find that feather edge that the great duelers can. I'm certainly competent ACM wise and my thinking is reasonably good...if I can out ACM the other guy I'll win pretty easily...but when it gets really down and dirty and reaches that white knuckled on the edge stage I end up like Maxwell Smart {"Missed it by that much :furious :cry :( :furious"} more often then not.
So I've evolved to the point where I realize that my "strength" is "non edge of the envelope ACM" where I can hold my own with 80%+ of the population. My thought are that those with either natural gunnery or the ability to put a given plane "on the edge" progress quickly...but I also think that those who aggressively pursue both "snap shots" and "bleeding edge ACM" learn those easier then those who chase "SA" and "managing the fight". By the time I became a trainer I had reached the conclusion that the F6F, 109F, 205 were the ideal beginners planes because they "forced" both gunnery and "feather edge disipline" to a degree.
But in the end I think your spot on in the sense that each player has to find a style that complements there skill set and provides a reasonable level of satisfaction. Most of us that "burn out" (been there a bunch of times) do so by chasing a "holy grail" of percieved need or by becoming so stale and set in one play style that bordom sets in.
My gut feel is that good gunnery is the great equalizer, a good shot will beat a great stick most of the time and a great shot will beat a great stick almost 100% of the time. ACM trumps good SA...and "edge of the envelope" trumps ACM most of the time.
Great insights, thanks for this.
If you've ever seen the movie, "Good Will Hunting", there's a part where he is at an outdoor cafe table with his girlfriend and she asks, "How is it that you can do these biochemistry equations in your head in a few minutes, but it takes other very smart people 2 weeks". His reply was something to the effect, "When Mozart sat down at a piano, he didn't have to be taught how to play, he just played...When it comes to this sort of thing (mathematics) I just play."
My flying is like the flip-side of, Will Hunting. I'll use music as an example. I play the Saxophone, but I am not musically inclined. I play technically well, but very mechanically. I read the notes on the page and key the notes on my instrument almost as if I were taking dictation or something. I have no inborn intuitive understanding of music. I learned to play by learning the fundamentals and applying them in a rigid and practical way. There's no "feeling" in my music, I cannot evoke or invoke emotion with it. It lacks the human element, it's as if a computer were playing the Sax. That's because I am not a "natural". Just as I am not a natural pilot in the same way you describe yourself. I fly mechanically as if I am reading from a textbook. I got better by studying books and filming people, then emulating what I saw truly gifted flyers do on the film. I have no intuitive "feel" for it.
Everyone has things they just "play" like Will Hunting and mathematics, Leviathin and flying or me and Gunnery. Everything else we endeavor to do is accomplished by sheer mental effort, perseverance and willpower, with no assistance from God given gifts.
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My flying is like the flip-side of, Will Hunting.
Mine's more like "How you like them apples?."
and just because it fits here, too, kind of..
Self-taught... never even read Shaw... still haven't, lol, but over time I casually surfed "ACM" sites to put names to the actual manuevers I had already been doing. I've never been hesitant to push the envelope in all my rides, or take chances (still, 3 v 1 doesn't need to become a freekin' castrati hordelet v 1 yanno?) even if I often got burned, something which I still do. I'm not a true furballer- I'm more of a lone wolf on the fringes, trying to drag victims away from the fur, or interdiction near enemy bases. Flying with and against better players in varying situations has been a boon, as well.
I've been relatively blessed with an innate sense for SA (I *do* see the guy who's probably gonna kill me, but more than likely I couldn't get out of the way in time, or wanted to get a kill,) manuevering and in RL i'm a decent shot, but my AH gunnery has always been mediocre (can we say nose bounce at lower speeds?), fortunately for ya'll.
But the one piece of advice (given way back in AW3 on Gamestorm by KAK3) that helped me most was about lead turn in the merge.. starting *before* we actually crossed.. and the timing involved with various aspects of net-lag, i.e., starting the move when the other guy was still about 1.2k away. This has been reduced somewhat with better overall internet connections by a few hundred yards, around 800/1k-ish. And with HOs enabled, it's safer for the most part than getting too close in.
If we all had perfect zero lag, or in the DA with someone i knew wouldn't HO, I'd start the move as close as 300-500yds away.
I still use(d) this concept in the DA when I had people start their zoom up around 1k out while I went into a flat turn - allowing them to roll, spot and drop back down in the slot with a better guns solution - in range as opposed to out of position.
Back on topic... it's all fun. I know people have their limitations; my only issue is with those who don't at least try and find out what those limitations are.
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Back on topic... it's all fun. I know people have their limitations; my only issue is with those who don't at least try and find out what those limitations are.
Yes, Shane, I totally agree there. As in my wall/door metaphor in response to Slappy. If you never grope around in the dark and find the wall, you'll probably never notice it's actually a door when someone/thing turns on the "light", so you will fail to walk through and expand your horizons.
But, that brings up a great point. Everyone owes it to themselves to eventually maximize their potential, wherever that mysterious bar may be. But, there is also a time and place to make that the goal unto itself. Developing skill in AH or anything for that matter, is a nuanced orchestration of reinforcing what you already know with practice and trying to incorporate new techniques or elements into your "game". At some stages of development it's actually better to reinforce those things you have already have a grasp on than leave that "comfort zone" at a critical juncture in your development in an effort to incorporate elements you are not really ready for.
For Example....
It's kind of like math, it builds on itself. The only way you will get good at math is sheer repetition. The only way you can get to more advanced math is by mastering the basic math. I might be innately capable of being a calculus wizard one day, but it would be ridiculous for me to try to learn calculus without first learning my multiplication tables.
So, it can actually cause problems if you try to coerce people into developing more quickly or "out of order" in terms of the logical, progressive cultivation of the various skills needed for profiency in air combat in AH.
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Fun? I find AHII fun for about 20 seconds after "SYSTEM: You shot down XXXX"*
Whereas I find being shot down depressing for about...well, I'm not sure theres a time limit.
Comparing seeing the "XXXX shot you down message" to accidentally dropping a cinderblock on my toe, I find the latter at least 10 times less unpleasant.
Objectively, I can't win, I might as well try to get rich by playing roulette in Vegas.
However, here I am still. :devil What a rotten thing hope is...unkillable is the notion that perhaps *someday* better equipment, more practice, etc, I shall clear entire arenas of bandits and grown men shall speak of me in hushed whispers. Like the "jackpot" for the guy who just bet his house-payment at the tables, this draws me back.
*Note, these calculations exclude the fun to be found in BSing with the squaddies, which possibly brings the Fun vs. the "I hate this %@%@$^@#$%^ game" balance closer to being positive. Or, to speak in business terms, at least going bankrupt very slowly. For me, that is a victory. :D
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BnZ, I find the BSing with Squadmates the most fun as well ... along with flopping around in the mud with my A5 ;). Zaz, very good post!
Cya Up!
Dawg
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BnZ, I find the BSing with Squadmates the most fun as well ... along with flopping around in the mud with my A5 ;). Zaz, very good post!
Cya Up!
Dawg
Hiya BFD! :salute