Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: toonces3 on September 18, 2008, 12:26:40 AM
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Ok. In my opinion, the 190, all of them but especially the 190A8, is the most poorly flown plane in the game.
I am NOT a 190 guru. In fact I don't even consider myself fair in them. My skill in the 190 lies somewhere between the Hellcat and the P-38. But, about a year ago I did a 'tour' in the 190A5 and I found it to be a capable plane in the MA. I wasn't spectacular, but it can hold its own if you take the time to fly it. A very memorable fight was when I ended up on the deck with a pair of P-47D40's on my 6. These guys were just chewing me up, bit by bit. Somehow, by utilizing the awesome roll rate to just keep jinking, and taking alot of 50 cal, I was able to evade maybe 2-3 hard minutes until a friendly swiped them both off.
Anyway, the 190 seems to be a 1 trick pony (pun intended) in the MA anymore. Or maybe always. Maybe I just never noticed. I seem to catch nearly every 190A8 I've ever seen doing one of two things; occasionally both for variety. They will either:
1. Pork the radar (suicide optional); then the 1a. plan would be to reverse and shoot anything and everything on the field over and over until caught, pinned, and killed (or suicided).
2. Vulch. Plain and simple. Run down the runway, reverse, do it again, reverse, and so on until caught, pinned, and killed...suicide is the 2a. plan.
Now, there is a variant. This is the 'astro-190' (tm). This guy comes in at high alt (high being whatever is higher than everyone else). He sits, looks for a pick (or bnz if you will). After his run, he might reposition and try again. More likely, someone is going to force him down. Then he's going to:
1. Go to the deck and run.
1a. Go to the deck and run, but then at D400 he's going to bury the stick left/right and start rolling uncontrollably (we don't need no stinking controlled flight here).
2. Go to the deck, run to my field and then proceed to any of the options above.
3. Go to the deck and then HO anything and everything he sees until he is caught, pinned, and killed. Ram is optional.
In and of itself, it doesn't bother me all that much. I don't see the fun in that, but it's not my $15. So why post? Because the 190 is a nice plane. I mean, it's a really nice plane. It's capable. I've been pwned by guys like Dedalos and Storch and Trukill in them enough to know that it can outfly someone in a Spit (like me). I suppose it takes some finesse to fly well, but it's not the hardest plane in the set to fly. That honor goes to the P-38.
It makes me sad that so many folks don't take the time to learn the plane and, instead, use it in these ways. The 190 was a capable and feared plane in WW2 and, in this game, it's a cannon platform for the suicide porker, vulch dweeb, and general lamer. The plane is better than that. Folks should take the time to realize this.
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:lol:
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long whine?
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Dude(s), this isn't a whine.
Read it again. I'm not whining. I don't care if folks fly this way...why would I? But I think the plane is so much more capable than the way it is used in the game by the majority of people.
Kinda like the whole runstang thing, but instead of running, people take there 190 and do ^ that stuff with it.
But if you insist this is a whine, then:
The collision model sucks
The scoring system is broken
The ENY system is porked
The big maps suck
The small maps are boring
HO'ing is lame but they did it WW2 so it's a valid tactic but it takes two to HO but anyone can avoid a HO and I love it when someone tries to HO me because they're lame and I can get right on their six and shoot them down because they're a noob and they're trying so hard to HO me that I'm looking two moves ahead at how I'm going to shoot them down and drink their beer so I HO anyone that gets in front of me because if they're in my gunsights then it's their fault but if you HO someone then you don't have any ACM skills and what is a HO anyway is it a shot when both guys can shoot each other or is it a front quarter shot and what if both guys are head on and can shoot but then one guy moves off-nose and the other guys shoots him is that a HO because see then that first guy couldn't shoot so it wasn't a HO it was a front quarter shot so then it wasn't a HO but that's just semantics isn't it?
Ok, I think I covered everything.
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Toonces where ya been man you've been doing a lot of typing and not a lot of flying, my .f toonces3 comes up blank every time.
By the way this:
HO'ing is lame but they did it WW2 so it's a valid tactic but it takes two to HO but anyone can avoid a HO and I love it when someone tries to HO me because they're lame and I can get right on their six and shoot them down because they're a noob and they're trying so hard to HO me that I'm looking two moves ahead at how I'm going to shoot them down and drink their beer so I HO anyone that gets in front of me because if they're in my gunsights then it's their fault but if you HO someone then you don't have any ACM skills and what is a HO anyway is it a shot when both guys can shoot each other or is it a front quarter shot and what if both guys are head on and can shoot but then one guy moves off-nose and the other guys shoots him is that a HO because see then that first guy couldn't shoot so it wasn't a HO it was a front quarter shot so then it wasn't a HO but that's just semantics isn't it?
is not only an ultimate truism, but it even happens in that exact order every time. lol!
As for the 190's. I think you summed it up, and you know that people's behavior won't likely change. Flying the 190 successfully requires the patience and skill to continually keep it operating within its optimum flight envelope. Not much fun, or very rewarding, for those who want to kill quickly and sloppily. Conversely, you can take a Spit out of its flight envelope, mail the envelope to Jakarta without a return address, and still land with 6 kills.
Have to disagree with you though about 190's being the most poorly flown plane in the game. Lately the P-51 flying I've encountered has just been regrettable.
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Same goes for every plane in the game... ESPECIALLY the 262. 98% of the time I see a 262 its a dweeb. 97.9% of the time a Temp has a dweeb at the stick. Everytime I see a perk plane I push the attack because I figure I owe it to the guy to prove he earned those perks. If he loses them he will only work harder to get more... or it will be a long hard path of learning. If everyone did that there would be fewer dweebs in the uber rides but most of the time its noobs in a conga line chasing a con they cant catch.
As to your theory about 190 pilots... some of the best sticks I have seen using them always resort to the ailerons as if thats a magic answer for every situation. I just slow down and stay behind them and get close and shoot them. Usually they make it easy to do that.
There are a few guys that can make the 190 work. Most of the smart ones dont get into situations where they are alone and lower then other planes because that leads to getting killed. Same for most airplanes.
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just because you aint met a good 190 stick.
i mean im average but my squadies laugh at my 190 flying antics... cos i dive into furballs as if im in a turn fighter, fly around like a turn fighter and generally end up ganged but sometimes i get lucky bag alot of kills and get home lol. rarely am i timid.
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I am not any good in any of the 190's for dogfighting or BnZ, or any of the other things mentioned here, so I don't do them. However, in the scenario Der Grose Schlag, I flew the 190A-8 as a bomber interceptor and had top kills in the A-8 for the scenario. With 2x 30mm and 2x 20mm cannons, oodles of ammo, this puppy shreds big buffs in about 3/4 of a second.
If you're not having to chasing after them, or having to get to high altitude quickly, this is a good plane to get yourself up high and go hunting at leisure. It's a great buff killer when there's lots of targets around.
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:lol
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Rolling Plane Set
..and anyone will have to fly all planes
greetz!
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Imo, the worst flown plane in the game is the N1k. The P-51 gets second place honors. That's not to say that the 190 isn't near the top of the list, though.
Although I fly neither aircraft, I get a kick out of watching N1K and Typhy pilots HO each other. Usually, both die, and then I hear one of them complaining about it on vox, as if all of their enemies are obliged not to challenge their 4x20mm.
Ok, as for the 190, notice that what you describe here is the exact same thing that you complain about later:
A very memorable fight was when I ended up on the deck with a pair of P-47D40's on my 6. These guys were just chewing me up, bit by bit. Somehow, by utilizing the awesome roll rate to just keep jinking, and taking alot of 50 cal, I was able to evade maybe 2-3 hard minutes until a friendly swiped them both off.
Go to the deck and run, but then at D400 he's going to bury the stick left/right and start rolling uncontrollably (we don't need no stinking controlled flight here).
...And typhoon pilots jink the elevator up and down when you get on their 6, P-38s like to do neg g turns in the horizontal, etc.
The 190 was a capable and feared plane in WW2 and, in this game, it's a cannon platform for the suicide porker, vulch dweeb, and general lamer. The plane is better than that. Folks should take the time to realize this.
The 190 was thought of more highly by the western allies than the Soviets. The latter thought it was inferior to the "lean" 109. The 190's fearsomeness in the west was largely due to the successful employment of hit-and-run tactics, i.e. boom and zoom and then run away when initial energy is used up.
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Rolling Plane Set
..and anyone will have to fly all planes
greetz!
RPS! :aok
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Toons, the 190 is an interceptor, not a dog fighter. It is provided in the game so that people would have an excuse for avoiding fights and blaming you for being in an easy mode plane (dog fighter) for their actions.
Sure the 190 was feared in WWII. It was fast, it had guns, and what else would the allies be afraid of over Europe? A6Ms? No, 190s and 109s. So, saying that the 190 was feared in WWII is meaningless. I fear anything with guns. Especially when it is faster than me.
The question is really then, why on earth would you pick to fly a plane that cannot put up a fight?
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Gee, I thought you were describing Jug or Pony pilots. I guess in the end it's not about the plane at all but the people "piloting" them.
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N1K, Spit, 51 all have horrible pilots generally. 190 is hard to fly but I've actually run into several good 190 drivers. BTW the P38 might lose the "toughest to fly" award- with the update the F6F with the non-existent 6 view is making a great bid :cry
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N1K, Spit, 51 all have horrible pilots generally. 190 is hard to fly but I've actually run into several good 190 drivers. BTW the P38 might lose the "toughest to fly" award- with the update the F6F with the non-existent 6 view is making a great bid :cry
Nop, 190s are easy to fly. Fly fast and straight and look for bombers. Dive away when fighters around. It was designed for that ;)
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The question is really then, why on earth would you pick to fly a plane that cannot go defensive when low and slow?
Fixed. :aok
You've just inspired me to fly the 190 today.
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Fixed. :aok
You've just inspired me to fly the 190 today.
lol, and do what with it?
I ll be in the TA practicing flying fast and picking people off of the runways :rofl
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Fixed. :aok
You've just inspired me to fly the 190 today.
Soo more picking then?
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I've noticed in the last couple of months "picking" somehow has become a dirty word. If you "pick" someone, you're no better than pond scum.
I've never known the 190 to be a dogfighter, at least not against your basic turn fighter planes. Picking I'm sure in real life is the preferred mode of attack in any combat situation... hit & run!, turn and fight if you have to. Why would you expect someone to choose to fly a 190 as a furball plane, even in a cartoon war, that's just dumb. If people are looked down upon for using the planes in this game as they were used in the real world, then we may as well take them all out of the game and rename the game Spitfires High. :rolleyes: :salute
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I've noticed in the last couple of months "picking" somehow has become a dirty word. If you "pick" someone, you're no better than pond scum.
I've never known the 190 to be a dogfighter, at least not against your basic turn fighter planes. Picking I'm sure in real life is the preferred mode of attack in any combat situation... hit & run!, turn and fight if you have to. Why would you expect someone to choose to fly a 190 as a furball plane, even in a cartoon war, that's just dumb. If people are looked down upon for using the planes in this game as they were used in the real world, then we may as well take them all out of the game and rename the game Spitfires High. :rolleyes: :salute
Very true! The question remains though. Why pay $15 a month to vulch and pick. Off line is kind of free now days
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Imo, the worst flown plane in the game is the N1k. The P-51 gets second place honors. That's not to say that the 190 isn't near the top of the list, though.
Ok, as for the 190, notice that what you describe here is the exact same thing that you complain about later:
Don't confuse jinking with that stick stirring, bury the stick and snap roll a dozen times thing that folks do. I do not fly that way. I have never stick stirred in this game and if you see my plane spinning out of control it's because I departed it :rock
I'm calling BS on some of the posts here. I can't believe, just can't believe, that Dedalos is coming on here and advocating BnZ, even in the 190. Dude, I've seen you dogfight that plane. I've seen it, and not just you but other folks. Just because the plane doesn't turn doesn't mean it can't fight.
I've seen some poor Pony flying, yes, but I have so rarely seen a 190A8 that stuck around to fight that I stick by my initial statement. The A8 is the porkiest plane in the set.
I think I may just start flying the 190 exclusively instead of the 109. See if it makes me porky.
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Besides the p-51, i love flying 190s. Yea, that are tough birds to handle but to fly them take time in them. Know plenty of people who fly them and do things with them that i can't do.
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Toonces where ya been man you've been doing a lot of typing and not a lot of flying, my .f toonces3 comes up blank every time.
I've got like 9 hours this month...we're just missing each other online. It's hard for me to get any flying in until I put the kids to bed, so I'm not on too much before 8pm west coast time.
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"Pick" is just a pejorative word for clearing a friendly's 6. If you don't pick, I don't want you flying anywhere near me. Moreover, in a multi-aircraft engagement, which kills are not picks? Everyone's looking at one or two bandits, while being pursued by others, all at the same time. Therefore, if in a multi-aircraft engagement every kill is a "pick," then the word "pick" is meaningless in that kind of situation. Heck, I get accused of picking when I am the only knight in icon range attacking bish or rooks. :lol
Lastly, frowning on picking is simply counter to wingman tactics, which is where ACM really gets interesting. What should be frowned on is guys dumping their altitude to be the 3rd or 4th guy on a bandit. That is a waste of resources and, again, I don't want any pilot who does that around me.
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I've noticed in the last couple of months "picking" somehow has become a dirty word. If you "pick" someone, you're no better than pond scum.
I've never known the 190 to be a dogfighter, at least not against your basic turn fighter planes. Picking I'm sure in real life is the preferred mode of attack in any combat situation... hit & run!, turn and fight if you have to. Why would you expect someone to choose to fly a 190 as a furball plane, even in a cartoon war, that's just dumb. If people are looked down upon for using the planes in this game as they were used in the real world, then we may as well take them all out of the game and rename the game Spitfires High. :rolleyes: :salute
Hello Alky,
I agree with you here. I would never fly the 190's like I fly some other types of planes. As far as picking...all of us do it, only some of us admit it. After a year and half in Aces High, I have picked and been picked by new pilots to some of the quote unquote better pilots. Fly the planes you like, the way you like to fly them. If someone tells you the way you fly doesn't measure up to their cartoon ROE, then they can just lump it. :aok
<Salute>
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I'm calling BS on some of the posts here. I can't believe, just can't believe, that Dedalos is coming on here and advocating BnZ, even in the 190. Dude, I've seen you dogfight that plane. I've seen it, and not just you but other folks. Just because the plane doesn't turn doesn't mean it can't fight.
Heh. I remember Dedalos swearing his way through the AvA one evening in an A8. Fact is, the A8 is a pig, the A5 is a piglet (with or without lipstick). Their guns are so good that their snapshot capability makes them seem more fearsome than they are. Against a competent pilot flying almost anything else, though, the FWs are toast. The people who do well in them (see JG11 and former JG54 members, for example) use them historically; that is, they fly in pairs (or more), they try to initiate combat from an altitude advantage, and they disengage when their planes slow down to 250 or less. Really superior pilots, like Dedalos and Batfink and some others, can get you in FWs, but usually that's because of your own overconfidence.
- oldman
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Just checking some of my stats in the 190:
Tour 97-
190A8: 8 kills, 1 death; lot of bomber kills though. Might have been a couple of lucky buff hunts...
Tour 92-
190A5: 17 kills, 5 deaths; a bunch of B-24 kills, but a sampler platter of fighters as well.
Tour 91-
190A5: 12 kills, 1 death; almost all fighter kills.
Tour 90-
190A5: 20 kills, 6 deaths
190D9: 8 kills, 4 deaths (ooof). Think I had a few augers here, I remember augering a handful of D9's one tour.
Tour 89-
190D9: 22 kills, 11 deaths.
190A5: 3 kills, 1 death.
Tour 88-
190D9: 5 kills, 0 deaths.
I think I'm going to go ahead and give the 190 a try for a while. See how it handles in the MA. I think it can be effective. I don't think it needs to be relegated to intercepting buffs, porking fields, and suicide vulching. I don't have a single kill in the f-model. Maybe I'll start there.
I'll let y'all know how it goes. If you see me up there in my 190, be sure to say hello. :aok
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Very true! The question remains though. Why pay $15 a month to vulch and pick. Off line is kind of free now days
Because the average guys would rather not listen to people who'd like to coerce them into paying $15 a month to become easy kills, by engaging in fights they are not comfortable or confident with.
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I don't have a single kill in the f-model. Maybe I'll start there.
I recommend the 500kg bomb and 12 rocket package for ground attack. To employ the rockets effectively against tanks it's helpful to get very close before you fire, e.g. 800 or even 600 yards out. One direct hit will kill a tiger.
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Because the average guys would rather not listen to people who'd like to coerce them into paying $15 a month to become easy kills, by engaging in fights they are not comfortable or confident with.
And by continuing the vulch, pick, and run they will eventually become very hard to kill and very comfident and comfortable in fighting.
Got it :aok
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The question is really then, why on earth would you pick to fly a plane that cannot put up a fight?
The 190 can put up a fight.
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I'm calling BS on some of the posts here. I can't believe, just can't believe, that Dedalos is coming on here and advocating BnZ, even in the 190.
:rofl I think you confused me making fun of people flying 190s with advocating BnZ lol. I was explaining why 190s are flown like that. They were made to do it. However, the guy climbing into one in AH is only looking for an excuse for his lame game play. They use the real life excuse like they do about HOing and Picking and vulching and spawn camping etc.
I avoid them but once in a while I do get bored so I fly one. They suck, but at list they look different. There is nothing hard about them. Stay fast, go up, if you miss run. Very simple really.
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The 190 can put up a fight.
Define fight please?
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There is nothing hard about them. Stay fast, go up, if you miss run. Very simple really.
You want hard try turn fighting in one.
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You want hard try turn fighting in one.
You are missing my point. The guys that fly them don;t fly them because it is hard to turn fight. They fly them because it is easy not to fight and they also provide with an excuse. Its not like the 190 drivers can actually fight if they took up the easy mode spitfire now, is it? They make it sound like they are bored since the other planes are easy to fly when in fact, they could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag if they were in a spit or niki
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Define fight please?
Not running away.
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Define fight please?
By fight I meant being able to shoot down enemy planes without just BnZ/pick them.
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Ded seems completely locked into a spitfire mentality of what fighting is.
P.S. Your argument doesn't hold water. When was the last time a 190A/F outran jack in the MA? Answer: Never. Almost every con it runs into can outclimb, out run, out accelerate, and out turn it.
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Its not like the 190 drivers can actually fight if they took up the easy mode spitfire now, is it? They make it sound like they are bored since the other planes are easy to fly when in fact, they could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag if they were in a spit or niki
Im going to have to disagree, I fly 190's because they are a chalenge and they are (IMO) funner to fly then a spit or niki. Although its a chalenge I can fight my way out of a wet paper bag in a niki or 190.
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Ded seems completely locked into a spitfire mentality of what fighting is.
P.S. Your argument doesn't hold water. When was the last time a 190A/F outran jack in the MA? Answer: Never. Almost every con it runs into can outclimb, out run, out accelerate, and out turn it.
I believe he is mainly talking about the D9. Which tends to but is not limited to the model of choice for many runners/pickers.
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He's barely touched a 190 in months. He's a lala dweeb these days, according to LWA stats.
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Rolling Plane Set
..and anyone will have to fly all planes
greetz!
There's a reason why RPS suck and why it's not in the game.
ack-ack
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P-38s like to do neg g turns in the horizontal, etc.
LOL! I'm sorry but clueless statements like that just make me chuckle.
ack-ack
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lol, and do what with it?
I think you answered your own question in an earlier reply.
Fly fast and straight and look for bombers. Dive away when fighters around
ack-ack
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LOL! I'm sorry but clueless statements like that just make me chuckle.
It's a regular defensive tactic for a number of 38 jocks, even well known ones... save your invective for something else.
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There's a reason why RPS suck and why it's not in the game.
They suck because of the variety they offer? I admit that AH would need a more robust early-war planeset to implement an RPS, but I loved it in WB.
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U saying the 190 is lame? :huh
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They suck because of the variety they offer? I admit that AH would need a more robust early-war planeset to implement an RPS, but I loved it in WB.
How is WB doing. :rolleyes:
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How is WB doing. :rolleyes:
Non sequitur.
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it gets on my nerves I get lumped into a group in posts like this all the time... but knock yourself out and stereotype all you want.
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Non sequitur.
lmao ... WB having a rolling plane set and the lack of people left playing have nothing in common? Keep telling yourself that. Wanna take bets when HTC will implement a RPS in the MAs. I'll take never ...you?
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Non sequitur.
dude, are you STONED?
The rolling planeset, the want for historical matchups, and the polarizing of elitist realism zealots vs guys who just wanna have a good time friggin' RUINED that game. The community splintered on forced change, and it has never been the same.
Ever see the numbers difference? When AH went live, there was a massive, MASSIVE exodus from WB's- and rightfully so. I stuck around thinking that maybe wild bill would pull his head out of his assets, but it was not to be.
Now they barely maintain enough revenue to keep the lil' green light on the servers blinking, much less develop anything new.
Believe me- if you wanna see the number drop hard core, force a RPS on this player base.
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elitist realism zealots
Very descriptive... but of whom? :noid
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A RPS has nothing to do with historical matchups or increased realism.
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It's a regular defensive tactic for a number of 38 jocks, even well known ones... save your invective for something else.
Anyone that pulls a negative G turn in a horizontal turn fight in a P-38 is just asking to be killed. I doubt many of the better P-38 sticks use it with any regularity, I know I don't pull that nonsense.
ack-ack
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Anyone that pulls a negative G turn in a horizontal turn fight in a P-38 is just asking to be killed. I doubt many of the better P-38 sticks use it with any regularity, I know I don't.
ack-ack
By comparison... how many "falling leaf" 109s do you see? Or how many 190 neg G pushover into land trout?
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Anyone that pulls a negative G turn in a horizontal turn fight in a P-38 is just asking to be killed. I doubt many of the better P-38 sticks use it with any regularity, I know I don't.
ack-ack
It's not in a turn fight, it's when they are bounced from above high 6 o'clock.
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A RPS has nothing to do with historical matchups or increased realism.
Er.... We're totally way off topic here, but it has EVERYthing to do with those. The entire POINT of an RPS is to roll out planes historically over a very compressed timeline as they would have in the real war. The planes that would have historically fought each other would be the ones engaging in combat. This yields both historic matchups AND (in theory) increased realism.
However, increased realism isn't always "fun" -- folks pining for an RPS generally seem (to me) not to have been around to witness its mediocrity from past failed attempts. One of those "Gee, that'd be cool!" moments without ever having seen first hand that it wasn't really all that cool.
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Er.... We're totally way off topic here, but it has EVERYthing to do with those. The entire POINT of an RPS is to roll out planes historically over a very compressed timeline as they would have in the real war. The planes that would have historically fought each other would be the ones engaging in combat. This yields both historic matchups AND (in theory) increased realism.
However, increased realism isn't always "fun" -- folks pining for an RPS generally seem (to me) not to have been around to witness its mediocrity from past failed attempts. One of those "Gee, that'd be cool!" moments without ever having seen first hand that it wasn't really all that cool.
Exactly- the RPS was the beginning of the end for WB's. It's a great idea, until you actually put it to practice. I think Hitech nailed it on the head when he made the mid and early war arenas.
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Er.... We're totally way off topic here, but it has EVERYthing to do with those. The entire POINT of an RPS is to roll out planes historically over a very compressed timeline as they would have in the real war. The planes that would have historically fought each other would be the ones engaging in combat. This yields both historic matchups AND (in theory) increased realism.
However, increased realism isn't always "fun" -- folks pining for an RPS generally seem (to me) not to have been around to witness its mediocrity from past failed attempts. One of those "Gee, that'd be cool!" moments without ever having seen first hand that it wasn't really all that cool.
You know how much it bugs me to agree with you.
I now need a shower. ;)
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Exactly- the RPS was the beginning of the end for WB's. It's a great idea, until you actually put it to practice. I think Hitech nailed it on the head when he made the mid and early war arenas.
Yup, now to fatten up the early and mid plane set. :aok
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Er.... We're totally way off topic here, but it has EVERYthing to do with those. The entire POINT of an RPS is to roll out planes historically over a very compressed timeline as they would have in the real war. The planes that would have historically fought each other would be the ones engaging in combat. This yields both historic matchups AND (in theory) increased realism.
However, increased realism isn't always "fun" -- folks pining for an RPS generally seem (to me) not to have been around to witness its mediocrity from past failed attempts. One of those "Gee, that'd be cool!" moments without ever having seen first hand that it wasn't really all that cool.
Hmmm, I seem to remember lots of 109E's fighting 109E's, and Spit1's fighting Spit1's. Oh yeah, don't forget to add the A6M2 vs. the 110C.
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Hmmm, I seem to remember lots of 109E's fighting 109E's, and Spit1's fighting Spit1's. Oh yeah, don't forget to add the A6M2 vs. the 110C.
Bet you can see the same in EW arena. You wouldn't want to force people to play "your way" now would you?
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No more than they do to me. The EW arena is not viable because there's not enough people to get anything started, and it's full of toolshedders.
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They suck because of the variety they offer? I admit that AH would need a more robust early-war planeset to implement an RPS, but I loved it in WB.
Well, as has been shown repeatedly when RPS threads make a showing, the majority of the community is against the idea. Also, anything that forces a player to fly something other than what they want is bad for business and ultimately for the community. HiTech has posted quite a few times about his thoughts on having a RPS system an in my opinion, the fact that the creator of WB didn't add an RPS system into AH has made HTC's stance on this quite clear.
ack-ack
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No more than they do to me.
Then we agree, no rolling plane set. :aok
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Then we agree, no rolling plane set. :aok
True, I wouldn't want to force it on people who didn't want it.
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Ok. In my opinion, the 190, all of them but especially the 190A8, is the most poorly flown plane in the game.
I am NOT a 190 guru. In fact I don't even consider myself fair in them. My skill in the 190 lies somewhere between the Hellcat and the P-38. But, about a year ago I did a 'tour' in the 190A5 and I found it to be a capable plane in the MA. I wasn't spectacular, but it can hold its own if you take the time to fly it. A very memorable fight was when I ended up on the deck with a pair of P-47D40's on my 6. These guys were just chewing me up, bit by bit. Somehow, by utilizing the awesome roll rate to just keep jinking, and taking alot of 50 cal, I was able to evade maybe 2-3 hard minutes until a friendly swiped them both off.
Anyway, the 190 seems to be a 1 trick pony (pun intended) in the MA anymore. Or maybe always. Maybe I just never noticed. I seem to catch nearly every 190A8 I've ever seen doing one of two things; occasionally both for variety. They will either:
1. Pork the radar (suicide optional); then the 1a. plan would be to reverse and shoot anything and everything on the field over and over until caught, pinned, and killed (or suicided).
2. Vulch. Plain and simple. Run down the runway, reverse, do it again, reverse, and so on until caught, pinned, and killed...suicide is the 2a. plan.
Now, there is a variant. This is the 'astro-190' (tm). This guy comes in at high alt (high being whatever is higher than everyone else). He sits, looks for a pick (or bnz if you will). After his run, he might reposition and try again. More likely, someone is going to force him down. Then he's going to:
1. Go to the deck and run.
1a. Go to the deck and run, but then at D400 he's going to bury the stick left/right and start rolling uncontrollably (we don't need no stinking controlled flight here).
2. Go to the deck, run to my field and then proceed to any of the options above.
3. Go to the deck and then HO anything and everything he sees until he is caught, pinned, and killed. Ram is optional.
In and of itself, it doesn't bother me all that much. I don't see the fun in that, but it's not my $15. So why post? Because the 190 is a nice plane. I mean, it's a really nice plane. It's capable. I've been pwned by guys like Dedalos and Storch and Trukill in them enough to know that it can outfly someone in a Spit (like me). I suppose it takes some finesse to fly well, but it's not the hardest plane in the set to fly. That honor goes to the P-38.
It makes me sad that so many folks don't take the time to learn the plane and, instead, use it in these ways. The 190 was a capable and feared plane in WW2 and, in this game, it's a cannon platform for the suicide porker, vulch dweeb, and general lamer. The plane is better than that. Folks should take the time to realize this.
i fly Dora and A8, i NEVER pork, and i HATE vulchers. i turn fight them, all the time. even my dora, and i dont like taking the time to grab alt. maybe 3-10 k at max. so just so you know before you say all 190 pilots are like that, im not. and i know a few other to.
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I have never found that the 190A-8 is an 'Average' plane. The only thing good on it, is its armerment, and its roll rate. It is probably has the highest turn rate in the game, just becasue its very heavy. Lotta times I call it the flying tank, just because of the guns. It is absoultly one of the worst planes in the game, and good pilots in it, are few and far between.
I've lost my ways in it, because its just not a fun plane to fly. Only time I fly it now, is when I'm perk farming or vulching; perk farming. Most of the time when I see one fly, I immedietly think that its a noob in the plane, and its a quick reverse.
The game is hard to fly, so most of the good pilots don't fly it. Just that simple.
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It's not in a turn fight, it's when they are bounced from above high 6 o'clock.
You either described the maneuver you're trying to explain incorrectly or you don't have a clue. Please explain using a negative G turn as a defensive maneuver against being bounced by a high bogie on your six.
ack-ack
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He's barely touched a 190 in months. He's a lala dweeb these days, according to LWA stats.
So, now that you took the time to check my stats for a few months what do you say? Pick the 190 of your choice and we go a few rounds in the DA? After that, we can try some spits also (see how wet the paper bag is lol). Should be easy no? What could an easy mode LALA dweeb do to guy that flies 190s because they are hard to fly?
As you saw, no spits and no 190s for me. Oh, no running though
What say you?
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Its not like the 190 drivers can actually fight if they took up the easy mode spitfire now, is it? They make it sound like they are bored since the other planes are easy to fly when in fact, they could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag if they were in a spit or niki
BS.
80% of what I run into in the MA wouldn't stand a snow-ball's chance in hell against me in a duel. It is vaguely surprising to run into someone who even knows how to merge in there. What they do know how to do is try the HO, blow past you, run/stick stir if you are even vaguely close to getting on their six, and gang-pick you when your back is turned as you slow down and commit to dogfighting something. But guess what? It works. This is not a whine, this is how it is. This is when a high-speed bnz plane begins to look attractive.
IMO, it is a wash. The ease of killing you get from something like a Spit's ability to turn, saddle, and kill with few problems is balanced by the ability to engage and disengage at will, which comes at the price of far, far greater difficulty of killing anything ("Picking" can be done in any plane, and for every time one gets an easy pick in a bnz plane, there will be 10 times where you either have to hit some ungodly deflection shot on a radically breaking target or get nothing.)
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Dedalos is in a pissy mood for some reason and his posts in SEVERAL threads today have been the same combatitive almost-troll quality. I wouldn't read too much into anything he's typed today.
BnZ: As for your comment, you seem to imply the spit can't dictate the fight. A spit16 can dictate almost any fight unless the opponent has a SIGNIFICANT speed boost (i.e. came out of a dive and is doing 550mph). A spit16 can out run a 190a (either model), can out accelerate either, can climb like a 109K4 (still breaking 3000fpm past 10k with NO wep), can roll with a 190, can turn like a spit, and can insta-kill with a single hispano round.
You seem to think it's a balance. I fail to see any "balance" in that choice ;)
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Knifefighting in a 190 is kind of like playing a game of Europa Universalis as a small German city state... You won't get many chances, you do have to make the most of them, you have to carefully set yourself up for your moves with timing and angle, and you're likely to lose much more often than you win...
Some people in this world find those types of wins exhilarating, and others don't find the trouble to reach them worth it. There's really not much else to it.
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Dedalos is in a pissy mood for some reason and his posts in SEVERAL threads today have been the same combatitive almost-troll quality. I wouldn't read too much into anything he's typed today.
BnZ: As for your comment, you seem to imply the spit can't dictate the fight. A spit16 can dictate almost any fight unless the opponent has a SIGNIFICANT speed boost (i.e. came out of a dive and is doing 550mph). A spit16 can out run a 190a (either model), can out accelerate either, can climb like a 109K4 (still breaking 3000fpm past 10k with NO wep), can roll with a 190, can turn like a spit, and can insta-kill with a single hispano round.
You seem to think it's a balance. I fail to see any "balance" in that choice ;)
I'll take that as a NO :rofl
In anycase, I agree with BnZ in almost all of his points. However, I keep going back to the same thing. When he said "engage" in the 190 that means a 1 or second pass on someone most likely already busy fighting someone else. The question is remains the same. Why pay for that when off line drones are free and as challenging.
Also, lets cut the BS about slow 190s. Its like talking about Spit Is. I am talking about the D9 and you guys are talking about the Spit 16. I don;t remember seeing any 190Fs picking or Spit Is furballing
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Some people in this world find those types of wins exhilarating, and others don't find the trouble to reach them worth it. There's really not much else to it.
V, I see it differently. If I kill a spit while in a p40, C202, or 190 early model, I don;t see it as exhilarating. I just killed some guy that has been in the game for 2 weeks or was AFK. That is not a challenge. I would have killed him if I was flying a bath tab. I'd rather go against a pure fighter in a spit and get my arse haded to me because that would have been a hell of a fight.
I guess what I was in a fighter and fought my self in a 190, my self in the 190 would always die. So killing someone while in a 190 only means he did not see you or his skill level is way lower than yours. However, when you meet someone equal, your plane will not allow you to enjoy a good fight. All it will provide to you is a way out of the fight, maybe.
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I'll take that as a NO :rofl
In anycase, I agree with BnZ in almost all of his points. However, I keep going back to the same thing. When he said "engage" in the 190 that means a 1 or second pass on someone most likely already busy fighting someone else. The question is remains the same. Why pay for that when off line drones are free and as challenging.
I am talking about the D9 and you guys are talking about the Spit 16.
Agreed, we are talking about the D9s. The As are just obsolete in the LW MA. For "stunt" flying only, although, in really, really dense furballs, they may be about as good as anything else with cannons, where its all about using the roll rate to pop off some snapshots and dodge bnz passes until you inevitably bite it. But you are going to bite it anyway in those situtations, so you might as well earn perks.
Actually, no, OPHA is no nessecarily what I meant when I said engage. The D9 can play the "E" game and bite those who make a mistake. And it can both catch and turn behind the average Pony long enough to get a kill, TYVM. Really, it IS solid performer in almost every category-speed, climb, dive, roll, acceleration, zoom, views, gun package, ammo loadout-EXCEPT turn radius. Kind of like a mirror of the Spit16, an elite performer in every way except top speed and ammo-load out.
*Shrug* And don't even start me down the road of why pay to do what Ded...I still sometimes have trouble believing that myself and so many other grown men are paying to play a video game at all.
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I guess what I was in a fighter and fought my self in a 190, my self in the 190 would always die. So killing someone while in a 190 only means he did not see you or his skill level is way lower than yours. However, when you meet someone equal, your plane will not allow you to enjoy a good fight. All it will provide to you is a way out of the fight, maybe.
That is an amazing statement Ded...if everyone thought that way, it really WOULD be all Spits or the like all the time, you realize?
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I fly the A8 a lot and consistantly have my highest K/D rate in it. I never vulch or jabo in it and have fought and won against almost every type of plane. Getting into and winning a knife fight in an A8 is incredibly nerve-wracking but fun.
I think I can also fight my way out of a wet paper bag in a Spit although there's not any wet paper bags in the MA to try it against.
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V, I see it differently. If I kill a spit while in a p40, C202, or 190 early model, I don;t see it as exhilarating. I just killed some guy that has been in the game for 2 weeks or was AFK. That is not a challenge. I would have killed him if I was flying a bath tab. I'd rather go against a pure fighter in a spit and get my arse haded to me because that would have been a hell of a fight.
I guess what I was in a fighter and fought my self in a 190, my self in the 190 would always die. So killing someone while in a 190 only means he did not see you or his skill level is way lower than yours. However, when you meet someone equal, your plane will not allow you to enjoy a good fight. All it will provide to you is a way out of the fight, maybe.
Well, I get what you're saying... But OTOH, let's put it this way... In the DA, yeah, 10/10 times, you're wooping your 190-self's butt if you're in a SpitV and the 190 tries to turn fight you. In the MA though, with you expecting the 190 to HO & GO or whatever, there is a chance he can catch you off guard and give you an actual fight. Maybe not a long, drawn-out down on the deck type deal that another well-flown SpitV would, but at least a situation where you have to react fast or die. Perhaps you're merging looser on purpose, not expecting him to cut throttle and go for it, you know?
The whole Fog of War has to be taken into account... And the current state of the game is a two-way sword... Yeah, a lot of people complain about the lack of good fights, but at the same time, it's that psychology that lets lesser planes get the occasional suprise jab in.
I've seen good sticks go up against each other in the MA, 190 vs. whatever... It is possible for an interesting fight to develop... But I mean, yeah, not likely the sort of fight that similar aircraft would produce.
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Well, I get what you're saying... But OTOH, let's put it this way... In the DA, yeah, 10/10 times, you're wooping your 190-self's butt if you're in a SpitV and the 190 tries to turn fight you. In the MA though, with you expecting the 190 to HO & GO or whatever, there is a chance he can catch you off guard and give you an actual fight. Maybe not a long, drawn-out down on the deck type deal that another well-flown SpitV would, but at least a situation where you have to react fast or die. Perhaps you're merging looser on purpose, not expecting him to cut throttle and go for it, you know?
The whole Fog of War has to be taken into account... And the current state of the game is a two-way sword... Yeah, a lot of people complain about the lack of good fights, but at the same time, it's that psychology that lets lesser planes get the occasional suprise jab in.
I've seen good sticks go up against each other in the MA, 190 vs. whatever... It is possible for an interesting fight to develop... But I mean, yeah, not likely the sort of fight that similar aircraft would produce.
Very well said. It is exactly that element of surprise that allows you to win actual fights with the A8. No one expects you to go for it.
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It was a "your childish retort doesn't warrant a response", neither yes nor no.
It's funny that you guys are talking about the D9. While definitely the most capable dogfighter of the lot, MOST of the time (yes, even when they dogfight) I'm seeing 190a8s and 190a5s. I honestly don't see *too* many D9s these days. Must be a poor sampling skewing my impressions, though.
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So, now that you took the time to check my stats for a few months what do you say? Pick the 190 of your choice and we go a few rounds in the DA? After that, we can try some spits also (see how wet the paper bag is lol). Should be easy no? What could an easy mode LALA dweeb do to guy that flies 190s because they are hard to fly?
As you saw, no spits and no 190s for me. Oh, no running though
What say you?
I know you were not talking to me but I wouldn't mind going to the DA for some fun fights.
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i fly Dora and A8, i NEVER pork, and i HATE vulchers. i turn fight them, all the time. even my dora, and i dont like taking the time to grab alt. maybe 3-10 k at max. so just so you know before you say all 190 pilots are like that, im not. and i know a few other to.
If you're waiting for a pat on the back, you're going to be waiting a long time fella.
First, I never said that all 190 pilots are like anything. I said the 190 is consistently the plane I see most often flown in the vulch/pork/suicide role. It is capable of far more than that. The fact that it seems to be the plane most used like this makes me feel it is the plane that is flown most poorly in the MA.
Second, the one thing we all seem to agree upon is that the 190 is NOT a turn fighter. If you're turn fighting in your D9, then you are not fighting to your plane's strengths. I would characterize that as flying the plane "poorly".
Third, I've seen you on two consecutive nights bragging about how you HO everyone and everything. I believe you were bragging about your HO technique on 200 the other night. I think we've all taken a squirt at some guy head on in our gunsight at some point. That's one thing. Bragging about how you always do it...I consider that flying "poorly".
So, in short, I don't think you're the guy to be telling me how you set the standard for how the 190 should be flown.
Having said that, you may be exceptional in the plane. I've never seen you in it, so I have no idea how skilled you are. <S>
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well, in that entire post you have there... all false. no bragging, and as i think stodd said, its hard to turn fight in a 190, and in my opinion, (not being a bragger again) i think i do it petty well. and HOing, i usually dont make that remark out of the blue as you blindly stated. i only say, everynight when ridiculed; "hoing a plane with 20mms and 30mms is dumb on your part". ect. and in all honesty, it is.
also taking shots at the 190 like this thread... it all just sounds like someone been gettin you a little much in the MA if you ask me. sounds like a stress relief complaint.
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You either described the maneuver you're trying to explain incorrectly or you don't have a clue. Please explain using a negative G turn as a defensive maneuver against being bounced by a high bogie on your six.
Either you lack imagination or you're not interpreting me charitably. If you don't give me some benefit of the doubt, then you're attacking a straw-man.
Ok, one more time. So I'm the bandit, and I'm coming in on a 38's 6 at probably -20 or -30 degrees of pitch. The 38 rolls left, as if to make an evasive break turn, when the 38 sees me roll left to follow, he pushes forward on the stick into a neg g turn. Timed correctly, it spoils the bandit's gun solution because following would mean a red-out. Clearly, it works better on an aircraft with poor high speed roll performance than vice-versa. In some cases, if I've seen a 38 in the area do this during a previous sortie, I've rolled left and then right immediately to fool the target into the same maneuver, and end up with a belly shot.
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Either you lack imagination or you're not interpreting me charitably. If you don't give me some benefit of the doubt, then you're attacking a straw-man.
Ok, one more time. So I'm the bandit, and I'm coming in on a 38's 6 at probably -20 or -30 degrees of pitch. The 38 rolls left, as if to make an evasive break turn, when the 38 sees me roll left to follow, he pushes forward on the stick into a neg g turn. Timed correctly, it spoils the bandit's gun solution because following would mean a red-out. Clearly, it works better on an aircraft with poor high speed roll performance than vice-versa. In some cases, if I've seen a 38 in the area do this during a previous sortie, I've rolled left and then right immediately to fool the target into the same maneuver, and end up with a belly shot.
Would you happen to have film of this? Sounds like an off angle neg g pushover.
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Would you happen to have film of this? Sounds like an off angle neg g pushover.
Yep and not a 'negative G turn' like he describes.
ack-ack
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"I said the 190 is consistently the plane I see most often flown in the vulch/pork/suicide role. "
How did you see through the clouds of spits and La7s?
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I would think a neg g pushover points the nose down? In this case, the pitch of the defender remains constant.
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I would think a neg g pushover points the nose down? In this case, the pitch of the defender remains constant.
So your saying they are doing a flat, Neg g turn? Now I really want to see film.
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Ill take ANYONE to the DA in my 190 :rock :rock :rock
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So your saying they are doing a flat, Neg g turn? Now I really want to see film.
Never caught this one on film. I'll tell you what. If someone from the 80th wants to come forward and tell us his perspective on it, I'm all ears.
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Never caught this one on film. I'll tell you what. If someone from the 80th wants to come forward and tell us his perspective on it, I'm all ears.
Fair enough, I'm still betting there is some vertical component to it though.
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On some occasions the wings rolled more than 90 degrees, so in fact that would result in a little bit of pitch-up. It's all about fooling the attacker into rolling and pulling lead for a deflection shot. It worked well on me a couple of times, at least. Like a lot of defensive maneuvers, you can't do it over and over again otherwise the attacker wises up. A lot of people do the same thing every time.
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Ill take ANYONE to the DA in my 190 :rock :rock :rock
Ok :aok
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If someone from the 80th wants to come forward and tell us his perspective on it, I'm all ears.
While not a member of the 80th, I do probably have the most P-38s hours clocked in AH and what you described what basically is a flat, negative G turn is hardly a defensive maneuver I would recommend one employ. At best, using the maneuver you describe might throw off the aim of the attacker on his gun pass but all that maneuver does is set you up for the attacker's follow up attack and your eventual death.
Now some P-38 drivers might use negative Gs as a precursor to a maneuver. For example, if a bogie is diving on me from a high six position, I'll wait until he gets close enough and I'll then unload my plane (pushing negative Gs) to gain some energy quickly before rolling over into a Low Yo-Yo to meet the attacker.
I've fought probably all the good P-38 sticks in this game and I have never seen one of them use the tactic you describe. Why? Because the good ones employ far better and effective maneuvers to defend themselves from a high attacking bogie.
ack-ack
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Whoever said the 180A-8 isn't competetive in the MA was just wrong. I've got a 10.83 K/D rate in it on 70 combined kills plus deaths over the past six months and I suck. No vulching but yes, some bomber kills (about 1/3-1/2 as a guess). Those numbers were the same when I was in the hundreds of kills plus deaths in it over the same period earlier in the year (I was up around 250 K+D for a while). That seems pretty competetive to me. Like I said ealier, it's always among my best fighters and I personally think it's a monster in the MA.
I supplanted a lot of my A8 sorties with the K4 but even in the K4 I've never been able to match the success I have in the A8.
I guess its a matter of what you're used to.
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That is an amazing statement Ded...if everyone thought that way, it really WOULD be all Spits or the like all the time, you realize?
Well, I said fighter. Why did you assume a Spit?
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109A5 with 2cannons shouldnt have much trouble against half the planeset.
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MG-FF are modelled as being little better than .50s as far as hitting power goes. They do maybe 50-60% of the damage a 'normal' 20mm (i.e. Mg-151 or comparable), and maybe 20-30% of a Hizooka.
They also have the ballistics of a watermelon.
I hope we don't have the above oppinion.
Consider that this is almost like that prehistoric game Airwarrior3, when all planes only had one fire button; hence, we used up cannons first.
I would almost rather fire machine guns and the 20s at the same time and be able to fire the 30's separately.
Take a tiffy for example, two sets of cannons, which can be fired separately, the 190 has the extra machine guns and is seemingly penalyzed for it. sux!
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I hope we don't have the above oppinion.
Consider that this is almost like that prehistoric game Airwarrior3, when all planes only had one fire button; hence, we used up cannons first.
In AW, all guns fired simultaneously when you pressed the trigger. For example, if you fired the guns on the P-38J, the machine guns and cannons would fire at the same time. It just happened that the cannon ammo would run out at the 75% mark then it was all machine guns after that.
ack-ack
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Well, I said fighter. Why did you assume a Spit?
V, I see it differently. If I kill a spit while in a p40, C202, or 190 early model, I don;t see it as exhilarating. I just killed some guy that has been in the game for 2 weeks or was AFK. That is not a challenge. I would have killed him if I was flying a bath tab. I'd rather go against a pure fighter in a spit and get my arse haded to me because that would have been a hell of a fight.
I guess what I was in a fighter and fought my self in a 190, my self in the 190 would always die. So killing someone while in a 190 only means he did not see you or his skill level is way lower than yours. However, when you meet someone equal, your plane will not allow you to enjoy a good fight. All it will provide to you is a way out of the fight, maybe.
You fly the La7 alot correct? Well, compared to a Spit16, it doesn't outclimb, out-turn, or out-roll it. The only thing the Lala has going against a Spit16 is top speed. DedA would always beat DedB in a Spixteen vrs. La7 fight, unless DedB ran. Therefore, any kills of Spixteen you have in La7 are meaningless because the opponent HAD to be less skilled than you or AFK for you to kill him with your Lala. Your logic, not mine.
Also, because, for example, the SpitV does not outdo the A6M5b in turning or indeed in any respect at typical MA alts EXCEPT top speed in level flight and dives, it is not a "fighter". You are just kidding yourself if you fly this because if you meet a Zero with an equal or better pilot at the stick, you will either Ho, run, or get owned eventually....once again, your logic, not mine.
Gee, I could compose quite a laundry list of things that "are not fighters" if the standard is "there are other planes they tend to be disadvantaged against in a 1v1 duel."
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and HOing, i usually dont make that remark out of the blue as you blindly stated. i only say, everynight when ridiculed; "hoing a plane with 20mms and 30mms is dumb on your part". ect. and in all honesty, it is.
also taking shots at the 190 like this thread... it all just sounds like someone been gettin you a little much in the MA if you ask me. sounds like a stress relief complaint.
Ok, true enough. I remember that exchange on 200 you're referring to, and you did say that.
I can assure you, though, that this isn't a griefer thread. Of all the planes that I run into in the MA, the 190 is really one of the least feared by me specifically because of the reasons I already put forth. I may not catch and kill alot of 190's, but I definately don't fear running into them.
Anyway, getting into a pissing contest with you gets me nowhere. Tell ya what, next time I run into you in Bishland, maybe you'll let me wing up with you or a sortie or two and you can show me a few things. I'm always willing to learn.
<S>
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Having read all of the posts on here, I'll state the following:
My comment about the strato-190 is perhaps unfair. Even Soda recommends coming into a fight with a 190 at an alt advantage. In the strato-190 case, that actually would be fighting it to its strengths. I stand corrected there.
Interesting conversation.
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An airplane that fast, and with that kind of climb and acceleration, does not necessarily NEED an alt advantage to have an E-advantage.
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This is the all knowing guide to the 190s.
I used to fly these alot, and I have learned these facts about each one:
190-A5-This is the turn fighter, be in mind its no spitfire, but its the best turn fighter of the 190s.
190-A8-This would be the bomber killer/base porker. The 30MM is great for doing both of these jobs.
190-D9-This is the fast one, this is the fastest 190 of them all.
190-F8-This is the GV killer, carrying 1 500kg (1000lb) bomb, and 4 50kg (100lb) bombs or 12 rockets (this is the most any plane in AH carrys).
TA-152-This is just a 190 on steroids, carrying a huge gun package, it is deadly. It doesnt turn well, but it is a great picker.
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Ok, true enough. I remember that exchange on 200 you're referring to, and you did say that.
I can assure you, though, that this isn't a griefer thread. Of all the planes that I run into in the MA, the 190 is really one of the least feared by me specifically because of the reasons I already put forth. I may not catch and kill alot of 190's, but I definately don't fear running into them.
Anyway, getting into a pissing contest with you gets me nowhere. Tell ya what, next time I run into you in Bishland, maybe you'll let me wing up with you or a sortie or two and you can show me a few things. I'm always willing to learn.
<S>
saw you tonight some and talked as well. anytime you wanna wing im up for it. i fly nothing but 190s. and always looking for an additional wing. <S>
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This is the all knowing guide to the 190s.
I used to fly these alot, and I have learned these facts about each one:
190-A5-This is the turn fighter, be in mind its no spitfire, but its the best turn fighter of the 190s.
190-A8-This would be the bomber killer/base porker. The 30MM is great for doing both of these jobs.
190-D9-This is the fast one, this is the fastest 190 of them all.
190-F8-This is the GV killer, carrying 1 500kg (1000lb) bomb, and 4 50kg (100lb) bombs or 12 rockets (this is the most any plane in AH carrys).
TA-152-This is just a 190 on steroids, carrying a huge gun package, it is deadly. It doesnt turn well, but it is a great picker.
This is not at all what's being discussed, nor is it even really what the original post was about. The thought is appreciated, but really try to read the thread wholly before replying.
Sorry to sound rude, but your response is just really really out of place given the depth of 190 philosophy that has been uncovered over the last 8 pages of responses.
Continue on with discussion I was enjoying reading.
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Never caught this one on film. I'll tell you what. If someone from the 80th wants to come forward and tell us his perspective on it, I'm all ears.
If you're going to slime the 80th, at least do it without hijacking this guy's thread.
That said, I've never done a horizontal turn with neg G but I have done nose low neg G push overs.
Not sure what dragged the 80th into this conversation, but without film or at least a name, I have little interest in your baseless accusations.
Now, if you want to accuse me of spying or hacking, the line ends back there.
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You fly the La7 alot correct? Well, compared to a Spit16, it doesn't outclimb, out-turn, or out-roll it. The only thing the Lala has going against a Spit16 is top speed. DedA would always beat DedB in a Spixteen vrs. La7 fight, unless DedB ran. Therefore, any kills of Spixteen you have in La7 are meaningless because the opponent HAD to be less skilled than you or AFK for you to kill him with your Lala. Your logic, not mine.
Also, because, for example, the SpitV does not outdo the A6M5b in turning or indeed in any respect at typical MA alts EXCEPT top speed in level flight and dives, it is not a "fighter". You are just kidding yourself if you fly this because if you meet a Zero with an equal or better pilot at the stick, you will either Ho, run, or get owned eventually....once again, your logic, not mine.
Gee, I could compose quite a laundry list of things that "are not fighters" if the standard is "there are other planes they tend to be disadvantaged against in a 1v1 duel."
No arguments here. Almost all the kills I have in the LA7 are from running down runners (mostly 51s and D9s). I have also chased Spit5s in it. The guy thought he would actually get away :rofl I totally agree with you. 99% of the kills of Spit16s were not a result of a fight. I either rundown a vulcher/picker or the guy was really green. The only fun out of it would be in the case of a guy trying to escape with hist 2 vulches.
On the second paragraph, we almost agree. I would not have run or HO him. You see, you don't know who you are against until after the fight. So, if the guy was good, I would get owned at the end. But if you go back and read my posts you will see that that is what I am looking for. It would have been a good fight before I died. Although, a D9 would probably dive in to save the day :aok
That is why the MA is boring. Although, I will admit, it is fun running down all the "aces"
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I don't remember who it was who did it, but it's not sliming. I think it's an interesting yet strange maneuver. It was on the southern part of the baltic map a couple months ago, I was flying a 109K-4, and a few of the 80th guys were around in P-38s (I want to say they were flying L's because they were white). I brought up the neg g thing on 200 and received a reply like "What?! You want me to stay in your gunsight?" :lol
That said, these same pilots were pressing the nits really hard, even though there were only 3 of them. I enjoyed and appreciated what I saw for the most part.
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HO'ing is lame but they did it WW2 so it's a valid tactic but it takes two to HO but anyone can avoid a HO and I love it when someone tries to HO me because they're lame and I can get right on their six and shoot them down because they're a noob and they're trying so hard to HO me that I'm looking two moves ahead at how I'm going to shoot them down and drink their beer so I HO anyone that gets in front of me because if they're in my gunsights then it's their fault but if you HO someone then you don't have any ACM skills and what is a HO anyway is it a shot when both guys can shoot each other or is it a front quarter shot and what if both guys are head on and can shoot but then one guy moves off-nose and the other guys shoots him is that a HO because see then that first guy couldn't shoot so it wasn't a HO it was a front quarter shot so then it wasn't a HO but that's just semantics isn't it?
Ok, I think I covered everything.
Dat was da longest sentence I ever read...................:)
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Think I have to disagree about the 190 being the most poorly flow bird. IMO the Spit (late models) and the LaLA's are.
Here is my logic. If these birds are so hot that if you regularly fly them many consider you a "spit dweeb" or a "LaLa dweeb" because of their great performance and a no talent stick like myself can kill you while I am flying an F6 or a 109 then you are definately underutilizing the capabilities of those aircraft.
So IMO The late model spits and LaLa's are the most poorly flown birds in here. :cool:
Later,
KayBay
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For some people anything flying with front guns is concidered a dweeb plane . so is turning with a c47.
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This is not at all what's being discussed
Well exuse my to try and teach some people how to fly the thing! and what do you mean not being discussed? the guy posted about 190s and not flying them well, so i post how to fly them well. And if this information has already been posted well then good for you, im not going to read all 8 pages to see if it has. GOOD DAY SIR!
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The typical 190 I see in AH2 is nothing more then a human AMRAAM.
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The typical 190 I see in AH2 is nothing more then a human AMRAM.
AMRAAM? You're too generous with your description, I would have thought Baka Bomb would've been more accurate.
ack-ack
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lmao baka bomb
I didn't read any of these but I would just like to say that I rock and I can fly any plane (ok Im drunk)
see you guys online <S> :aok
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I read all this: I know 190s :cool:
After reading all this mess, most of you are missing two vocabulary words, what I call instantaneous and sustained turn rates. All 190s in AW3 and in AH2, had the best roll rates, and probably the worst turn rates. What the 190s had in AW3 that they don't have in here is instantaneous turn rates. Hence ya could get a lot of corner for a short few secs but then speed would drop off quickly... the AW3 190s had near the best cornering but the worst Energy retention, it would lose energy quickly when trying to sustain any turn.
What does all this mean? Combined with the roll rate, the instantaneous turn rate allowed a 190 to force an over shoot. What a 190 couldn't out run, it would try to force to overshoot. Now back in those days... ping times were much higher. Forcing an overshoot was much easier. Lag could cause the guy behind you to miss, he shot where u were, but not where u are... to hit, one had to put a larger angle of deflection than ones eyes would assume, even when the target was temporarilly stationary.
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190 turn rates explained (as according to my opinion of AW3's) modeling:
From straight and level: If I just instantly pull the stick all the way back, fast as possible, in aw3 the plane would only shudder and speed would drop quickly and probably start rolling, just like in here I suppose, with speed dropping off fast, as the elevators became like airbrakes but worse, causing the air to flutter and become turbulent and we lose control to become falling ducks.
The way to engage the 190's great instantaneous turn rate was pull back slowly at first, until you started getting 'bite' or 'grip' - until the plane started turning. The more it started turning, the more and faster you could pull the stick back and the more bite / grip /turn you would get. What would happen is that after a short few secs 2 or 3, when the stick was all the way back, suddenly it would change and one would be almost shuddering / airbraking again so one had to put the stick back to center quickly. Consider it like a clutch in a car, let off the clutch too fast and it conks out. Put too much gas for too long and ya spin the tires. Do it right and you rapidly pick up speed (get a lot of cornering). Hold the gas too long and its like pushing the breaks - lose E! The process of pulling the stick all the way back only took a few secs, but still tricky.
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With these new definitions: (this is what I put on the Fw190 AoA thread in 'aircraft and vehicles,' updated it for here though.)
190s have roll rate in here. The sustained turn rate sux as we all know, but its instantaneous turn rate ruled. In AW3, the 190 used to be able to do 'few second sharp turns' without much penalty to speed / energy. After the few secs tho, speed/energy dropped off fast. With the instantaneous turn rates, one could get off snap shots at enemy planes. The instantaneous turn rate could be combined with the fast roll rate also to try to throw off trailing planes for a min to get speed back, or to force the enemy to fly past. In here, all we do is lose speed, they just slow down and reel us in. We can't force an overshoot, unless much luck.
In aw3, what you couldn't out run, you needed to try to force to fly past you. This was done by fast rolling and short duration high g turns. Hence: balance three angles, your direction (towards your friends or base) and your angle on horizon (if about to stall, get nose down, if got extra speed then could nose up). Try not to nose up if you are trying to build up speed. Do nose up once in awhile if trying to lose speed to force overshoot, in which case hold the turn to bleed off your E when lil by lil or alot when he's not expecting it. Becareful when you are above the horizon in relation to the enemy, your plane is a clearer target. All of that and balance with the angle of the enemy's nose behind you with your plane, you MUST stay out of his front, his bullets. Do this by 'flying out of the back window.' The 190 pilot would be looking out back window to see the enemies nose and bullets. Imagine a square infront of your plane with your base or your friends ahead of the center, and then enemy planes nose in the center also but its behind you. Make your plane follow the lines of a square infront of you, and sometimes diagonally go across it, or reverse the path, instead of clockwise, go counter clockwise for example. Land is very wavy in AH, so ya have to look forward a lot also if not over water. And by all means, push negative g's or use rudder to avoid the enemies bullets. In here the acceleration of 190s seems so poor that once ya give up speed, never mind trying to out run. And since turn rate, instantaneous, is so bad, never mind trying to force overshoot. Just bail out! Doomed! SUX! Once in awhile I've managed to trick planes into falling into the ground, or other tricks, but this is more less 'begging' moves. Yer probly doomed in here if get someone behind you in a 190, especially near to the ground. All the while peeps yell 'picker' and 'come back skilless dweeb.'
Sorry if this seemed repetative, but it got me 2nd place back in aw3 a few months in a row...
I'll quote a guy I shot down once "blank, you lagging blah blah" A good excuse nulifies the kill... the lag excuse isn't available anymore. :cool:
*Edit: oh, and if you go and look at my ratings however its done, understand that I have such a low morale in here, since 190s are sooo porked in my oppinion, that i crash or just die on a whim lots of times, just because it looks like a fun or neat way to crash, or die. Alot of testing too, seeing what I can get away with. :(
*Edit: some quotes
"Schlowy makes good bait."... someone.
"I got 4 or 5 kills clearing you" Skyrock <Salute, thx saving me>
*Edit again: Duh, what I flew alot, Fw190a4 (i think, its been awhile) The AW3 D9 was faster that most stuff, with not quit as good a roll rate as the AW3 a4, d9 pilot chose when and where though. Stay fast is/was the d9 rule.
"The AW3 Fw190a4 back then, was a plane that you could disrespect your enemy with." ~ Schlowy :)
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I don't remember who it was who did it, but it's not sliming. I think it's an interesting yet strange maneuver. It was on the southern part of the baltic map a couple months ago, I was flying a 109K-4, and a few of the 80th guys were around in P-38s (I want to say they were flying L's because they were white). I brought up the neg g thing on 200 and received a reply like "What?! You want me to stay in your gunsight?" :lol
That said, these same pilots were pressing the nits really hard, even though there were only 3 of them. I enjoyed and appreciated what I saw for the most part.
You don't have film, don't know the pilot, your not sure when or where it was other then it was a couple months ago, and so you decide to bring it up here and now and call the "80th" to the carpet for something you can't give a name to or describe so that anyone would understand what your saying with out describing it for you?
Maybe you should film your B-n-Z dweeb crap and know what your talking about B4 mentioning names, and maybe learn to use your throttle some while cherry picking.
Have a ton of respect for JG11, dude your out of line.
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The 190s are hands down the worst 'fighter' in AH. Poor performance, exceptionally crappy cockpit visibility, craptastic cannons - the 190s have it all. In AH1, they were bad. In AH2, they went from bad to worst.
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Well, my apologies if I offended anyone. :o
Some people were having a hard time understanding what I was trying to describe, so I thought maybe one of you guys could shed some light on it. <shrug>
Fwiw, I think I was vindicated on calling it a "flat neg g turn," so my original description was accurate. It's definitely not a neg g pushover, I know the difference.
So this is inaccurate:
something you can't give a name to or describe so that anyone would understand what your saying with out describing it for you?
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Gavagai wrote:
P-38s like to do neg g turns in the horizontal,
Ack-Ack wrote:
LOL! I'm sorry but clueless statements like that just make me chuckle.
Gavagai wrote:
It's a regular defensive tactic for a number of 38 jocks
Ack-Ack wrote:
Anyone that pulls a negative G turn in a horizontal turn fight in a P-38 is just asking to be killed.
Gavagai wrote:
It's not in a turn fight, it's when they are bounced from above high 6 o'clock
Ack-Ack wrote:
You either described the maneuver you're trying to explain incorrectly or you don't have a clue. Please explain using a negative G turn as a defensive maneuver against being bounced by a high bogie on your six.
Gavagai wrote:
So I'm the bandit, and I'm coming in on a 38's 6 at probably -20 or -30 degrees of pitch. The 38 rolls left, as if to make an evasive break turn, when the 38 sees me roll left to follow, he pushes forward on the stick into a neg g turn. Timed correctly, it spoils the bandit's gun solution because following would mean a red-out. Clearly, it works better on an aircraft with poor high speed roll performance than vice-versa. In some cases, if I've seen a 38 in the area do this during a previous sortie, I've rolled left and then right immediately to fool the target into the same maneuver, and end up with a belly shot.
Bronk wrote:
Would you happen to have film of this? Sounds like an off angle neg g pushover.
Ack-Ack wrote:
Yep and not a 'negative G turn' like he describes.
Gavagai wrote:
I would think a neg g pushover points the nose down? In this case, the pitch of the defender remains constant.
Bronk wrote:
So your saying they are doing a flat, Neg g turn?...
I'm still betting there is some vertical component to it though.
Gavagai wrote:
On some occasions the wings rolled more than 90 degrees, so in fact that would result in a little bit of pitch-up.
Ack-Ack wrote:
what you described what basically is a flat, negative G turn
Compare the first quote and the last quote. Regardless of whether or not the maneuver is good or bad, or how frequently it's used, my description remained consistent through the entire thread, and was finally agreed to be a negative g flat turn, just like I said at the very beginning.
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The 190s are hands down the worst 'fighter' in AH. Poor performance, exceptionally crappy cockpit visibility, craptastic cannons - the 190s have it all. In AH1, they were bad. In AH2, they went from bad to worst.
Yes, I agree, the "bars" on the forward view seem exaggeratedly bad.
I also wish we would split the A-5 into two planes. An A-4 for Early scenarios and something with more power and perhaps the better outer-wing 20mms for use later. A-6 perhaps?
Urchin, do you think there is anything "wrong" with the 190s relative turn and other performance in AHII or do you feel that being "worst" is right on the button?
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I also wish we would split the A-5 into two planes. An A-4 for Early scenarios and something with more power and perhaps the better outer-wing 20mms for use later. A-6 perhaps?
Bnz, why would you prefer a split to simply adding the A-4 and A-6? :confused:
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Bnz, why would you prefer a split to simply adding the A-4 and A-6? :confused:
I wouldn't, but I can already hear people complaining "We have too many 190s now!" "The A-5 will never get flown if you add the A-6." Right. Horrible problem that. Almost as terrible as how the P-40B hardly gets flown because we got the P-40E.
Far as I'm concerned, HTC could add most all produced and flown variants of every plane, but then you'd probably have griefers complaining the plane list takes too long to scroll through :rolleyes:
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Bnz, why would you prefer a split to simply adding the A-4 and A-6? :confused:
What would you lose replacing the A5 with the A6? I mean, with the G10-K4 thing, you lost the ability to carry 1 or 3 20mm's, but there's absolutely no advantage to having MGFF's to MG151/20s.
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Scenarios.
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Scenarios.
I'd think that the A5 and the A6's production areas intersect each other well enough that you could just put the A6 in. The outboard cannons generally aren't used anyway (I don't use them, at least, even in the A8...)
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I can never support the removal of any aircraft from the game if it saw action in WW2. I know it's been done before, and not just to the 109, but I can't fathom a justification for it, save a desire to lump things together that were different.
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Yes, I agree, the "bars" on the forward view seem exaggeratedly bad.
I also wish we would split the A-5 into two planes. An A-4 for Early scenarios and something with more power and perhaps the better outer-wing 20mms for use later. A-6 perhaps?
Urchin, do you think there is anything "wrong" with the 190s relative turn and other performance in AHII or do you feel that being "worst" is right on the button?
I know the 190s used to have better turn performance. Of course, it also used to be possible to see out of the front of the cockpit. As far as how it 'should' perform, I have no idea. The 190s all have high wingloading, which doesn't lend itself to good turning performance. I know for as long as I played AH, many of the people who chose to fly LW planes were unhappy with the way they were modelled, but it seems as if the 190s have been modelled in every game as being flying bricks. I only played AH, but if the poor performance is similar across the board then it would be tough to castigate HTC for that.
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I know the 190s used to have better turn performance. Of course, it also used to be possible to see out of the front of the cockpit. As far as how it 'should' perform, I have no idea. The 190s all have high wingloading, which doesn't lend itself to good turning performance. I know for as long as I played AH, many of the people who chose to fly LW planes were unhappy with the way they were modelled, but it seems as if the 190s have been modelled in every game as being flying bricks. I only played AH, but if the poor performance is similar across the board then it would be tough to castigate HTC for that.
Well, in CFS3, at low altitudes, in their A8, you could scissor against a P-51 diving on you, get the fight slow, then hit the WEP and accel level well enough to put him a mile between you before he began reeling the distance in again. And you really were the biggest bang in town with the six-gun package, whereas in AH 4xHispanos is probably deadlier. Not that I pine after CFS3 mind, that game sucked in most ways compared to AHII. The Spit9 could do a flat turn at its maximum rate of turn all day long like a jet....
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I've been playing around and shamelessly picking with the A-8 because of this thread, and I have to agree that the 4x20mm + 2x13mm armament of the A-8 isn't what you'd expect (instant death). I have convergence set to 400 yards, and hitting at that distance is far less lethal than when I get inside 300 yards, or closer, so I'm considering reducing convergence to 300 yards.
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I can never support the removal of any aircraft from the game if it saw action in WW2. I know it's been done before, and not just to the 109, but I can't fathom a justification for it, save a desire to lump things together that were different.
:salute
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I've been playing around and shamelessly picking with the A-8 because of this thread, and I have to agree that the 4x20mm + 2x13mm armament of the A-8 isn't what you'd expect (instant death).
I thought the MG 151/20s had a more rainbow trajectory than Hispanos because they were tossing a heavier projectile with more explosive...is that modeled in AHI?
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I thought the MG 151/20s had a more rainbow trajectory than Hispanos because they were tossing a heavier projectile with more explosive...is that modeled in AHI?
Apparently in Aces High kinetic energy is more important than the amount of HE in the round, because Hispanos are significantly more powerful than MG151/20s.
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tossing a heavier projectile with more explosive..
If two projectiles are the same size, the one with more explosive weighs less. Just sayin ;)
And yes, the trajectories of the hispanos are flatter in AH2. The round is travelling faster and should shed speed somewhat less quickly due to the fact of being heavier than the MG151/20 - Both resulting in that flatter trajectory.
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Actually the way ammo is modelled in AH limits the effectiveness of the German cannons. AH ammo is a composite of whatever rounds were in an ammo belt IRL. I'm going off some foggy memory here, but the Hispano round had significantly higher MV than the MG151, and the standard "HE" rounds for both had roughly the same explosive content.
IIRC a typical belt for the MG151 was 40% AP, 40% HE, and 20% Mine rounds (thin walled, with a lot of HE content). The AP round was significantly worse than the Hispano, the HE round was slightly worse, and the Mine round was better.
I'm completely making these numbers up, but I imagine it goes something like this for the MG151 (if one uses the Hispano as a reference).
Again IIRC, the AP and HE rounds for the Hispano were about equally effective, so the AH Hispano round is modelled as being half HE and half AP, which were the same anyway, so it gets rated a 1.
The AP MG151 round was about half as good as the Hispano, so that is rated a .5. The HE round was about 80% as good, so it would be a .8. The Mine round was about even, so thats a 1. But, the AH round is a composite round, so the AH MG151 is .5(.4) + .8(.4) + 1(.1). That is .2 + .32 + .1, or .62. So an individual round is about 60% as effective as an individual AH Hispano round. I think I'd rate the MG151's hitting power at between 50-60% of the Hizooka in AH, so it bears out in my head, at least.
The firepower of the MG151 has never been changed, to my knowledge. It is adaquate, but the 2x Hizooka 2x .50 combination of the Spitfire is about as heavy as the 4xMG151 2xMG131 on the A-8, in my opinion. I've killed and been killed many times by 1 Hizooka round to the tail, I've never killed or been killed by a single 20mm round of any other kind.
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Whoever said the 180A-8 isn't competetive in the MA was just wrong. I've got a 10.83 K/D rate in it on 70 combined kills plus deaths over the past six months and I suck. No vulching but yes, some bomber kills (about 1/3-1/2 as a guess). Those numbers were the same when I was in the hundreds of kills plus deaths in it over the same period earlier in the year (I was up around 250 K+D for a while). That seems pretty competetive to me. Like I said ealier, it's always among my best fighters and I personally think it's a monster in the MA.
I supplanted a lot of my A8 sorties with the K4 but even in the K4 I've never been able to match the success I have in the A8.
I guess its a matter of what you're used to.
I think the reason you did so well is your targeting skills, and maybe in that one particular plane you are even more dead on?
i know a WW2 ace spoke these words (not sure which one) " the better shot will most always kill the better stick..."
most often i cant hit crap but the other night in the MA, i was attacked by no less then 12 redguys, (by my self) now this is no different then most nights, but usually i only get 1 to 3 killz and die, this night i landed 7 killz, and the reason for this, is i was on "Target".
i think targeting skillz are the most important aspect of AH.
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About "Rolling and Cutting" anyways... or just plain running:
I've always felt that the guy chasing us should lose speed when he fires - momentum loss. I remember a documentary, p47 guy said he slowed by 20mph, not sure how many guns or what speed he was going though. He was ground attacking stuff.
Firing should slow us down, choosing which amo to fire would be a thing too.
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Ballistics:
I was riding in the early 110 today, low alt, just above the water, with auto-pilot on, no matter what I did with the page-up, page down, the sight was below the horizon? i fired, my bullets didn't go across the horizon, they went into the water, downward.
Someone bend the guns on the 110s? and then the site to match? Or is the pilot so high above the nose?
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Aiming is about interface set up, i think... I 'scoot my whole chair forward' with the foward arrow button. Cleans up view pretty good too.
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About "Rolling and Cutting" anyways... or just plain running:
I've always felt that the guy chasing us should lose speed when he fires - momentum loss. I remember a documentary, p47 guy said he slowed by 20mph, not sure how many guns or what speed he was going though. He was ground attacking stuff.
Firing should slow us down, choosing which amo to fire would be a thing too.
It does slow you down.
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so the AH MG151 is .5(.4) + .8(.4) + 1(.1). That is .2 + .32 + .1, or .62. So an individual round is about 60% as effective as an individual AH Hispano round.
Why not just do a hangar test and see how they actually compare? I don't think that your math and SWAG's are going to add up to such a large disparity.
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Just out of curiosity, I conducted this test my self.
Here's the parameters of the test:
1. Conducted offline on the BoB map, using default lethality values for plane guns. I adjusted the Hangar hardness to equal 1000 lbs of bombs for destruction. I increased the planegunammomult command to 10X.
2. First test, conducted twice, was with a Spit VIII. I taxied out next to a fighter hangar and fired until destroyed. First test got me an approximate to guide the second test. Between 240 and 260 Hispano rounds dropped the hangar.
3. Second test was set up exactly as the first. I put 240 rounds of Hispano into the hangar, then used single or two round bursts until the hangar dropped. The hangar was destroyed either at 247 or 248 rounds--I used a 2 round burst.
4. Third test, I set up a FW-190A8 with only the 2XMG151's and repeated the test again. Knowing I would only need about 250 rounds, I fired that many initially, then started the 1-2 round bursts again. The hangar was destroyed at either 279 or 280 rounds.
Conclusions:
1 round of Hispano ammunition in game is equivalent to 2.0 lbs of HE: 1000/248 = 4.03/2 = 2.015 = 2.0
1 round of MG151 ammunition in game is equivalent to 1.8 lbs of HE: 1000/280 = 3.57/2 = 1.78 = 1.8
As 1.8/2.0 = .9, it appears that 1 round of MG151 is 90% as relatively effective as 1 round of Hispano...
QED
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Damage on structures and damage on planes are two different things.
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Stoney, that doesn't account for lethality at range, but nice work.
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Damage on structures and damage on planes are two different things.
How so? Have you tested it? I contend that if you test it, it will be the exact same relationship.
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I want to say this discussion happened several years ago. I'll search around on the BBS.
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Stoney, that doesn't account for lethality at range, but nice work.
If its cannon we're talking about, sure it does. It's not .50 cal ball we're talking here. Sure, there's a small portion of kinetic damage from a 20mm round, but comparitively speaking, the relationship should be the same.
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The Hispano retains more energy at range than the MG 151 because it's a heavier shell with a higher initial velocity.
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If its cannon we're talking about, sure it does. It's not .50 cal ball we're talking here. Sure, there's a small portion of kinetic damage from a 20mm round, but comparitively speaking, the relationship should be the same.
Interesting discussion.
Stoney, I think what you're saying is valid; or at least it's as I would intuit things to be. A cannon round, from what I understand, does it's damage primarily from the explosive charge, not the kinetic energy of the round.
What occurs in reality, and what occurs as modeled in the game could be different. It's the game model that is important. Not reality.
I've been thinking for a while that the cannons on the FW birds seemed undermodeled, but I couldn't put my finger on what seemed wrong. There is certainly the appearance of some disparity in the hitting power of the different rounds- could be range dependent, I don't know.
I don't find the idea inconceivable.
If nothing else, I seem to be seeing alot more landed FW kills in the MA over the last couple of nights. Could be coincidence. Could be that I'm just noticing them now. Or, it could be that some folks read this thread and decided to show us what the FW can do.
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The Hispano retains more energy at range than the MG 151 because it's a heavier shell with a higher initial velocity.
Ok, according to Tony Williams website, it looks like he rates the rounds with the MG151 at 80% power relative to the Hispano. Given that, and my in-game test, I'd say that Urchin's 60% prediction is a low-ball SWAG that supports his argument, but isn't fully accurate.
And Toonces, why wouldn't there be a disparity? The Hispano round was a little larger than the MG151 round. Just because it doesn't hit as hard doesn't mean its nerfed. Lots of folks on this board like to use terms like undermodeled or overmodeled without really knowing what they're comparing to. And, ultimately, as you alluded to, in-game performance, relative to all the other aircraft, is trully the only thing that matters.
Should it take 12 MG151 rounds to knock the wing off a P-47? I have no idea--but as long as all the different weapons are either nerfed or buffed equally, they're all relatively accurate with respect to each other, and therefore, credible.
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I took the 109 G2 up offline and tapped single rounds into the left wing of the Pony at ~200. Took 6.
Did the same thing with the P-38. (It has a Hispano right?) Took 5.
Is there any kind of "damage randomizing" effect for impacts to the same spot on the same plane?
Doesn't seem too bad. I guess ROF is the deal-breaker.
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I took the 109 G2 up offline and tapped single rounds into the left wing of the Pony at ~200. Took 6.
Did the same thing with the P-38. (It has a Hispano right?) Took 5.
Is there any kind of "damage randomizing" effect for impacts to the same spot on the same plane?
Doesn't seem too bad. I guess ROF is the deal-breaker.
So you're saying that while trying to hit a manouvering target that 6 rounds vs 5 is a "deal breaker"? I'm not sure I've ever heard something so ridiculous in my life.
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I'd like to organise some sort of friendly duelling and many V many 'competition' in the Fw 190 series just for fun. Perhaps we could get a list of names together and collectively organise some fights in order to share tips on how to get the best out this largely misunderstood cartoon aircraft. I know I really enjoy dogfighting in the 190 and one of the best fights I've ever had was in a Dora on the deck turning hard with Ponies.
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Ok, according to Tony Williams website, it looks like he rates the rounds with the MG151 at 80% power relative to the Hispano. Given that, and my in-game test, I'd say that Urchin's 60% prediction is a low-ball SWAG that supports his argument, but isn't fully accurate.
And Toonces, why wouldn't there be a disparity? The Hispano round was a little larger than the MG151 round. Just because it doesn't hit as hard doesn't mean its nerfed. Lots of folks on this board like to use terms like undermodeled or overmodeled without really knowing what they're comparing to. And, ultimately, as you alluded to, in-game performance, relative to all the other aircraft, is trully the only thing that matters.
Should it take 12 MG151 rounds to knock the wing off a P-47? I have no idea--but as long as all the different weapons are either nerfed or buffed equally, they're all relatively accurate with respect to each other, and therefore, credible.
Stoney -
I couldn't find the thread I was talking about, but I did find an earlier building test, and a test I did comparing A2A damage for the MG151 and MG-FF.
The old ground testing thread - http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,97083.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,97083.0.html)
I doubt you'd be able to access the second thread, since it is in an old squad forum, so I'll cut and paste it.
It is my 'feeling' that the MG-FF on the 109E4 are decidely underpowered. According to the 'experts' that posted in a different thread, the MG-FF should hit at LEAST as hard as the MG151/20, since both rely on explosive shells for damage, rather than velocity.
I'd like each of you to do a little test for me.
Take off in EITHER a 109E4 or a 190A5 (with just 2 cannon, the MG151). In offline mode, btw. Set your convergence to 200 or 250. Get to approximately 200 or 250 yards (depending on convergence) and count the number of hits before something falls off (i.e. a wing, a tail, it explodes, etc.) , and record this. Do it 10 times if you don't mind (1, possibly 2 flights should be more than suffiecient). Warning in advance, fire very slowly, so you can count the individual hit flashes. I'd recommend aiming for the fuselage, although you can try aiming for the wing on some of the tests. I'll do both, and post the results here.
I'd like you to post the results of your tests (remember it is either/or, although you CAN do both if you really feel like it). I'd like to have some hard evidence before I start whining about this :).
Thanks in advance.
Don't everybody go at once now. I considered a plane (in this case the offline P-51s) killed when 1 of 3 things happened. 1. It exploded, 2. Its wing fell off, or 3. It tail fell off.
I did 30 tests with the 109E4 and 30 tests with the 190A5. These are the results I got.
109E4: (2 MG-FF/M)7,12,5,10,13,5,12,8,10,6,9,9,4,6,6,10,8,6,9,9,8,5,14,8,5,8,10,4,9,12
190A5: (2 MG-151/20)
9,8,8,6,7,4,7,5,7,5,11,8,5,6,6,5,5,1,6,8,2,6,3,3,4,3,8,9,4,3
The average number of hits required to obtain a 'kill' with the MG-FF/M was (247/30) 8.23 rounds.
The average number of hits required to obtain a 'kill' with the MG-151/20 was (172/30) 5.73 rounds.
This is a difference of roughly 40%.
Even if you throw out the high and low numbers, there will still be a strong descrepancy between the strength of the two cannon.
Without the high and low numbers, the average number of MG-FF/M rounds for a kill was (229/28) 8.17 rounds.
Without the high and low numbers, the average number of MG-151/20 rounds for a kill was (160/28) 5.71 rounds.
According to data posted in a different thread about the MG-FF, it was posted that both the MG-FF and the MG-151/20 use explosive shells for damage- not velocity and impact like the Hispano or .50 caliber. The MG-FF fired a projectile with around 20 grams of HE, and the MG-151/20 fired a projectile with 18.7 grams of HE. Since both rely on explosive damage, it seems logical that both cannon would do similar amounts of damage in Aces High. They don't.
Please do at least 10 trial runs with the 109E and any LW plane with an MG-151/20. I'd like to see if your data corraborates mine, or if somehow I managed to get an average that isnt the 'real' average. I don't want to 'go public' with this until I've got some extra data, so please help me out.
Again, thanks in advance.
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I'd like to organise some sort of friendly duelling and many V many 'competition' in the Fw 190 series just for fun. Perhaps we could get a list of names together and collectively organise some fights in order to share tips on how to get the best out this largely misunderstood cartoon aircraft. I know I really enjoy dogfighting in the 190 and one of the best fights I've ever had was in a Dora on the deck turning hard with Ponies.
I'd be up for that depending on the day/time and if I can remember.
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I took the 109 G2 up offline and tapped single rounds into the left wing of the Pony at ~200.
It's from 400+ yards that any significant difference should show up.
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I started a new thread in Aircraft and Vehicles to continue the cannon debate...
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,247765.0.html
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So you're saying that while trying to hit a manouvering target that 6 rounds vs 5 is a "deal breaker"? I'm not sure I've ever heard something so ridiculous in my life.
*sigh*
No Bald, I'm saying that on for example a high-deflection snapshot, even though both rounds have about the same hitting power, the cannon with the slower ROF will put fewer rounds on target as it flies through your bullet stream, thus perceived difference in deadly between the two brands of cannon.
Btw, something no one has mentioned in regards to the FW 190 variants is the advantageous placement of the wing-root cannon and cowl guns. Cans are about as close together as you can get with wing-mounting, if you do a .target, produces a very tight pattern over a long range of distances.
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Don't take it seriously bnz. Bald has an unfortunate habit of putting the most stupid words possible into others' mouths.
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*sigh*
No Bald, I'm saying that on for example a high-deflection snapshot, even though both rounds have about the same hitting power, the cannon with the slower ROF will put fewer rounds on target as it flies through your bullet stream, thus perceived difference in deadly between the two brands of cannon.
Got it. Had a few too many last night.
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In fact, the P-38 should have the equivalent of the Hispano II cannon, which fired 10r/s, which is less than the 12r/s of the MG151.
However, the Spitfires and Typhoons we have in the game seem to have the Hispano V cannon, with a rof fire of 12.5 r/s, a much better weapon than the Hispano II. http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php)
In Aircraft and Vehicles Stoney wrote:
According to Tony Williams website found here http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm)
Cartridge Comparison:
MG-FF = .7
MG151 = .8
Hispano II/V = 1
Gun Power Comparison:
MG-FF = .6
MG151 = .9
Hispano II/V = 1/1.2
So, the gunpower of the Hispano V on Spitfires and Typhs is 33% greater than the MG 151. Sounds accurate compared to AH. Multiply by four and you get the Hizookas of death we see on the Typh and Temp, whereas the 190A-8 4xcannon don't even compare.
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Yup, our Spitfires and Typhy are supposed to have the Hispano II cannon, but their ROF is more like a Hispano V according to gonzo's site. When I test if offline I get more like 11 r/s.
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php) says that the Spitfire cannons have ~9 seconds of fire, which would make them like Hispano V's, whereas when I test it they have almost 11 seconds of fire, which isn't as slow as a Hispano II, but not as good as the V.
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Anyone get a (bias) source on the author?
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Anyone get a (bias) source on the author?
33percent, ok, this with or without the mg damage?
Can you be more specific?
33% would be for the Hispano Mk V firing at 12.5 rps. http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php) has the Hispano armed aircraft firing at that rate, which is what I relied on for that figure. Supposedly, our Spitfires have the Hispano II, which had a rof of 10 rps, but when I test it offline it's more like 11 rps.
I think it's safe to say that our AH Hispano cannon has about 20% more gunpower than the MG 151. When you compare the 4 cannons of the FW-190A-8 to the four cannons of the Typhoon, the typhoon might have 80% more gunpower than the FW-190A8 (not counting the 190's mg's).
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The collision model sucks
The scoring system is broken
The ENY system is porked
The big maps suck
The small maps are boring
HO'ing is lame but they did it WW2 so it's a valid tactic but it takes two to HO but anyone can avoid a HO and I love it when someone tries to HO me because they're lame and I can get right on their six and shoot them down because they're a noob and they're trying so hard to HO me that I'm looking two moves ahead at how I'm going to shoot them down and drink their beer so I HO anyone that gets in front of me because if they're in my gunsights then it's their fault but if you HO someone then you don't have any ACM skills and what is a HO anyway is it a shot when both guys can shoot each other or is it a front quarter shot and what if both guys are head on and can shoot but then one guy moves off-nose and the other guys shoots him is that a HO because see then that first guy couldn't shoot so it wasn't a HO it was a front quarter shot so then it wasn't a HO but that's just semantics isn't it?
DUDE!! That was awsome!!! :lol
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Ok, so this would be my final calulation (I hope):
Tony Williams' site http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm) shows this:
Hispano II
Rof: 10
Gunpower: 200
Hispano V
Rof: 12.5
Gunpower: 250
so a 25% increase in rof gives a 25% increase in gunpower, that's straightforward enough.
If our Hispano cannon has a rof of 11rps, then its gunpower is 220.
The MG 151/20, at 12 rps (confirmed offline in AH), has a gunpower rating of 192.
So the Hispano in AH has ~15% more gunpower than the MG 151/20.
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So, if you want to compare the Typhoon to the Fw-190A8:
Typhoon gunpower: 880
FW190A8 gunpower: 768 + 48x2 (for the mg's) = 864
Only looking at cannon, the Typhoon has the 190A-8 outclassed in terms of gunpower, adding in the mg's of the 190 it should be almost equal.
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Anyone who thinks an A5 is not a knife fighter is in for a nasty surprise.
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So many of the 190 pilots online only know how to 'roll and cut' now...
http://vimeo.com/1782502
I guess the idea is to wait for you to overshoot... :rolleyes:
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Naah, yer not biased! :rofl
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So many of the 190 pilots online only know how to 'roll and cut' now...
http://vimeo.com/1782502
I guess the idea is to wait for you to overshoot... :rolleyes:
They shouldn't need to cut. The A5 can do a really nice fast scissors that can milk an overshoot easily without chopping the throttle. Whilst the 190 isn't one of the best turning aircraft in AH it is one of the fastest at changing direction, hence it can make a nasty knife fighter if flown correctly and with good SA.
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I took the 109 G2 up offline and tapped single rounds into the left wing of the Pony at ~200. Took 6.
Did the same thing with the P-38. (It has a Hispano right?) Took 5.
Is there any kind of "damage randomizing" effect for impacts to the same spot on the same plane?
Doesn't seem too bad. I guess ROF is the deal-breaker.
Hit the same spot eh? :rofl :O
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Pffft, fly with Mk 108 30mm cannon as your primary weappn for a tour and then talk to me about rate of fire, you big girls! :lol: :D
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Close enough. I don't think the damage model does things like take into account whether you are hitting the main spar on the exact same spot every time, or some such complexity.
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Maybe it's just me, but I see alot more folks flying the 190 lately and landing some nice kill scores in it...and not only those crazy JG squads either.
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I think the 190 is one of the easiest planes to land a 20+ kill sortie in. It might take a couple of re-arms but the 190 can get you in and out the fight with ease. Even the A8 can get you a nice swag of kills