The FW-190 series is the most poorly flown plane in the game

[dedalos]

Dedalos is in a pissy mood for some reason and his posts in SEVERAL threads today have been the same combatitive almost-troll quality. I wouldn't read too much into anything he's typed today.

BnZ: As for your comment, you seem to imply the spit can't dictate the fight. A spit16 can dictate almost any fight unless the opponent has a SIGNIFICANT speed boost (i.e. came out of a dive and is doing 550mph). A spit16 can out run a 190a (either model), can out accelerate either, can climb like a 109K4 (still breaking 3000fpm past 10k with NO wep), can roll with a 190, can turn like a spit, and can insta-kill with a single hispano round.

You seem to think it's a balance. I fail to see any "balance" in that choice

I'll take that as a NO   

In anycase, I agree with BnZ in almost all of his points.  However, I keep going back to the same thing.  When he said "engage" in the 190 that means a 1 or second pass on someone most likely already busy fighting someone else.  The question is remains the same.  Why pay for that when off line drones are free and as challenging.

Also, lets cut the BS about slow 190s.  Its like talking about Spit Is.  I am talking about the D9 and you guys are talking about the Spit 16.  I don;t remember seeing any 190Fs picking or Spit Is furballing

[dedalos]

Some people in this world find those types of wins exhilarating, and others don't find the trouble to reach them worth it.  There's really not much else to it.

V, I see it differently.  If I kill a spit while in a p40, C202, or 190 early model, I don;t see it as exhilarating.  I just killed some guy that has been in the game for 2 weeks or was AFK.  That is not a challenge.  I would have killed him if I was flying a bath tab.  I'd rather go against a pure fighter in a spit and get my arse haded to me because that would have been a hell of a fight.

I guess what I was in a fighter and fought my self in a 190, my self in the 190 would always die.  So killing someone while in a 190 only means he did not see you or his skill level is way lower than yours.  However, when you meet someone equal, your plane will not allow you to enjoy a good fight.  All it will provide to you is a way out of the fight, maybe.

[BnZ]

I'll take that as a NO   

In anycase, I agree with BnZ in almost all of his points.  However, I keep going back to the same thing.  When he said "engage" in the 190 that means a 1 or second pass on someone most likely already busy fighting someone else.  The question is remains the same.  Why pay for that when off line drones are free and as challenging.

  I am talking about the D9 and you guys are talking about the Spit 16. 

Agreed, we are talking about the D9s. The As are just obsolete in the LW MA. For "stunt" flying only, although, in really, really dense furballs, they may be about as good as anything else with cannons, where its all about using the roll rate to pop off some snapshots and dodge bnz passes until you inevitably bite it. But you are going to bite it anyway in those situtations, so you might as well earn perks.

Actually, no, OPHA is no nessecarily what I meant when I said engage. The D9 can play the "E" game and bite those who make a mistake. And it can both catch and turn behind the average Pony long enough to get a kill, TYVM. Really, it IS solid performer in almost every category-speed, climb, dive, roll, acceleration, zoom, views, gun package, ammo loadout-EXCEPT turn radius. Kind of like a mirror of the Spit16, an elite performer in every way except top speed and ammo-load out.

*Shrug* And don't even start me down the road of why pay to do what Ded...I still sometimes have trouble believing that myself and so many other grown men are paying to play a video game at all.

[BnZ]

I guess what I was in a fighter and fought my self in a 190, my self in the 190 would always die.  So killing someone while in a 190 only means he did not see you or his skill level is way lower than yours.  However, when you meet someone equal, your plane will not allow you to enjoy a good fight.  All it will provide to you is a way out of the fight, maybe.

That is an amazing statement Ded...if everyone thought that way, it really WOULD be all Spits or the like all the time, you realize?

[BaldEagl]

I fly the A8 a lot and consistantly have my highest K/D rate in it.  I never vulch or jabo in it and have fought and won against almost every type of plane.  Getting into and winning a knife fight in an A8 is incredibly nerve-wracking but fun.

I think I can also fight my way out of a wet paper bag in a Spit although there's not any wet paper bags in the MA to try it against.

[Vudak]

V, I see it differently.  If I kill a spit while in a p40, C202, or 190 early model, I don;t see it as exhilarating.  I just killed some guy that has been in the game for 2 weeks or was AFK.  That is not a challenge.  I would have killed him if I was flying a bath tab.  I'd rather go against a pure fighter in a spit and get my arse haded to me because that would have been a hell of a fight.

I guess what I was in a fighter and fought my self in a 190, my self in the 190 would always die.  So killing someone while in a 190 only means he did not see you or his skill level is way lower than yours.  However, when you meet someone equal, your plane will not allow you to enjoy a good fight.  All it will provide to you is a way out of the fight, maybe.

Well, I get what you're saying...  But OTOH, let's put it this way...  In the DA, yeah, 10/10 times, you're wooping your 190-self's butt if you're in a SpitV and the 190 tries to turn fight you.  In the MA though, with you expecting the 190 to HO & GO or whatever, there is a chance he can catch you off guard and give you an actual fight.  Maybe not a long, drawn-out down on the deck type deal that another well-flown SpitV would, but at least a situation where you have to react fast or die.  Perhaps you're merging looser on purpose, not expecting him to cut throttle and go for it, you know?

The whole Fog of War has to be taken into account...  And the current state of the game is a two-way sword...  Yeah, a lot of people complain about the lack of good fights, but at the same time, it's that psychology that lets lesser planes get the occasional suprise jab in.

I've seen good sticks go up against each other in the MA, 190 vs. whatever...  It is possible for an interesting fight to develop...  But I mean, yeah, not likely the sort of fight that similar aircraft would produce.

[BaldEagl]

Well, I get what you're saying...  But OTOH, let's put it this way...  In the DA, yeah, 10/10 times, you're wooping your 190-self's butt if you're in a SpitV and the 190 tries to turn fight you.  In the MA though, with you expecting the 190 to HO & GO or whatever, there is a chance he can catch you off guard and give you an actual fight.  Maybe not a long, drawn-out down on the deck type deal that another well-flown SpitV would, but at least a situation where you have to react fast or die.  Perhaps you're merging looser on purpose, not expecting him to cut throttle and go for it, you know?

The whole Fog of War has to be taken into account...  And the current state of the game is a two-way sword...  Yeah, a lot of people complain about the lack of good fights, but at the same time, it's that psychology that lets lesser planes get the occasional suprise jab in.

I've seen good sticks go up against each other in the MA, 190 vs. whatever...  It is possible for an interesting fight to develop...  But I mean, yeah, not likely the sort of fight that similar aircraft would produce.

Very well said.  It is exactly that element of surprise that allows you to win actual fights with the A8.  No one expects you to go for it.

[Krusty]

It was a "your childish retort doesn't warrant a response", neither yes nor no.

It's funny that you guys are talking about the D9. While definitely the most capable dogfighter of the lot, MOST of the time (yes, even when they dogfight) I'm seeing 190a8s and 190a5s. I honestly don't see *too* many D9s these days. Must be a poor sampling skewing my impressions, though.

[stodd]

So, now that you took the time to check my stats for a few months what do you say?  Pick the 190 of your choice and we go a few rounds in the DA?  After that, we can try some spits also (see how wet the paper bag is lol).  Should be easy no?  What could an easy mode LALA dweeb do to guy that flies 190s because they are hard to fly?

As you saw, no spits and no 190s for me.  Oh, no running though

What say you?

I know you were not talking to me but I wouldn't mind going to the DA for some fun fights.

[toonces3]

i fly Dora and A8, i NEVER pork, and i HATE vulchers.  i turn fight them, all the time. even my dora, and i dont like taking the time to grab alt. maybe 3-10 k at max. so just so you know before you say all 190 pilots are like that, im not. and i know a few other to.

If you're waiting for a pat on the back, you're going to be waiting a long time fella.

First, I never said that all 190 pilots are like anything.  I said the 190 is consistently the plane I see most often flown in the vulch/pork/suicide role.  It is capable of far more than that.  The fact that it seems to be the plane most used like this makes me feel it is the plane that is flown most poorly in the MA.

Second, the one thing we all seem to agree upon is that the 190 is NOT a turn fighter.  If you're turn fighting in your D9, then you are not fighting to your plane's strengths.  I would characterize that as flying the plane "poorly". 

Third, I've seen you on two consecutive nights bragging about how you HO everyone and everything.  I believe you were bragging about your HO technique on 200 the other night.  I think we've all taken a squirt at some guy head on in our gunsight at some point.  That's one thing.  Bragging about how you always do it...I consider that flying "poorly".

So, in short, I don't think you're the guy to be telling me how you set the standard for how the 190 should be flown.

Having said that, you may be exceptional in the plane.  I've never seen you in it, so I have no idea how skilled you are.  <S>

[deth13]

well, in that entire post you have there... all false. no bragging, and as i think stodd said, its hard to turn fight in a 190, and in my opinion, (not being a bragger again) i think i do it petty well. and HOing, i usually dont make that remark out of the blue as you blindly stated. i only say, everynight when ridiculed; "hoing a plane with 20mms and 30mms is dumb on your part". ect.  and in all honesty, it is.

also taking shots at the 190 like this thread... it all just sounds like someone been gettin you a little much in the MA if you ask me. sounds like a stress relief complaint.

[Anaxogoras]

You either described the maneuver you're trying to explain incorrectly or you don't have a clue.  Please explain using a negative G turn as a defensive maneuver against being bounced by a high bogie on your six.  

Either you lack imagination or you're not interpreting me charitably.  If you don't give me some benefit of the doubt, then you're attacking a straw-man.

Ok, one more time.  So I'm the bandit, and I'm coming in on a 38's 6 at probably -20 or -30 degrees of pitch.  The 38 rolls left, as if to make an evasive break turn, when the 38 sees me roll left to follow, he pushes forward on the stick into a neg g turn.  Timed correctly, it spoils the bandit's gun solution because following would mean a red-out.  Clearly, it works better on an aircraft with poor high speed roll performance than vice-versa.  In some cases, if I've seen a 38 in the area do this during a previous sortie, I've rolled left and then right immediately to fool the target into the same maneuver, and end up with a belly shot.

[Bronk]

Either you lack imagination or you're not interpreting me charitably.  If you don't give me some benefit of the doubt, then you're attacking a straw-man.

Ok, one more time.  So I'm the bandit, and I'm coming in on a 38's 6 at probably -20 or -30 degrees of pitch.  The 38 rolls left, as if to make an evasive break turn, when the 38 sees me roll left to follow, he pushes forward on the stick into a neg g turn.  Timed correctly, it spoils the bandit's gun solution because following would mean a red-out.  Clearly, it works better on an aircraft with poor high speed roll performance than vice-versa.  In some cases, if I've seen a 38 in the area do this during a previous sortie, I've rolled left and then right immediately to fool the target into the same maneuver, and end up with a belly shot.

Would you happen to have film of this? Sounds like an off angle neg g pushover.

[Ack-Ack]

Would you happen to have film of this? Sounds like an off angle neg g pushover.

Yep and not a 'negative G turn' like he describes.


ack-ack

[killnu]

"I said the 190 is consistently the plane I see most often flown in the vulch/pork/suicide role. "

How did you see through the clouds of spits and La7s?