Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 1pLUs44 on October 15, 2008, 05:08:10 PM
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I just read down the AH General Discussion, the biggest threads were whines and rants and ALL of them ended in an Argument... I wonder how long this one will last w/o a single argument??
Why doesn't everyone just chill out? Have fun with the game, and don't spend your time here trying to have your way with a game, and don't try to put down other players... I've seen people talk about how much they love helping out newer players (or for that matter, EVERYone) and when someone asks for that help, they just are straight up mean or rude to them... (I've done it myself)
I bet that 50% of the people who quit the game without any sort of 'I'm quitting!' on General Discussion quit because of another player straight up pissing them off or trying to degrade them.
If you like to BnZ, let it be, you're having fun, it's your money. Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill, well okay... But what if you really like to BnZ? What if you really like to actually get kills because you're still learning the ACM for TnB? I understand people who put the people who vulch 2nd accounts for perks or rank, as those just ruin the aspect of the game. But you tell me, why do you act like this over the forums and over text, but when you get on to vox, 90% of the time, you're pretty nice to the person you were talking sh*t to 5 minutes ago on 200. I've had that happen with about 4 of my 5 big 200 rants/DA fights... Kinda confusing. :confused:
Just seems that when people say this over the intardnet, is this what they'd say to someone's face in real life? :huh
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i'm sorry, but your sig broke my irony meter.
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i'm sorry, but your sig broke my irony meter.
:confused:
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I like that you include a troll in your plea for people to be reasonable and enjoy the game. :rolleyes:
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Eh, idk, I usually prefer to be chilled out. But it just seems odd to find people randomly starting an argument in a thread or degrading someone. I expected this type of reply though. :rolleyes:
Oh well.
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If you like to BnZ, let it be, you're having fun, it's your money. Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill,
Oh, really?
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My thread is forum gold, it should be melted down, turned into minature f/a-18 fighter jets and handed out to everyone who participated.
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Oh, really?
You know what I mean. :)
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I bet that 50% of the people who quit the game without any sort of 'I'm quitting!' on General Discussion quit because of another player straight up pissing them off or trying to degrade them.
Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill
:rofl hypocrite.
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You know what I mean. :)
No, actually I don't know what you mean other than what you said. If you meant something other than BnZ takes no skill, tell me what exactly you meant.
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is this an Argument?
zuii
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No, actually I don't know what you mean other than what you said. If you meant something other than BnZ takes no skill, tell me what exactly you meant.
Okay, I meant that everyone states to every BnZ'er that what they do takes no skill and that the only thing they are and can be is a noob... That's what I was trying to get around.
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What if you like to BnZ but can't get kills cuz your gunnery sucks, you have no ACM, and have a habit of augering, but still get called out on 200 for being an A-hole just for trying. It can be a bit humbling.
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Okay, I meant that everyone states to every BnZ'er that what they do takes no skill and that the only thing they are and can be is a noob... That's what I was trying to get around.
You already told me you "state" it so I still don't know what you mean. I'm trying though.
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Okay, I meant that everyone states to every BnZ'er that what they do takes no skill and that the only thing they are and can be is a noob... That's what I was trying to get around.
BS. That you think a good BnZ pilot doesn't require ACM knowledge shows you don't know what you're talking about. ACM isn't only for TnB.
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I think this may be turning into an Argument.
zuii
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Not really a surprise, after seeing the opening post :D
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I think this may be turning into an Argument.
zuii
Tactless posts have a tendency to do that. ;)
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The problem with this game is that you pretty much have to interact with other people.
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well, I'm not arguing. I'm just looking for clarification before I form an opinion and respond.
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is this an Argument?
zuii
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
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Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill, well okay... But what if you really like to BnZ? What if you really like to actually get kills because you're still learning the ACM for TnB?
The start of an argument right there.
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
:lol :rofl
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This isn't an arguement..it's abuse.
:noid
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1. Your K/D ratio in the P-51D last tour was not earned attempting to engage co-e Spits in turn fights. Whether it came mostly from application of E-fighting, picking, buff-hunting, or deliberately isolating and then running down and shooting A/C that the Pony can more or less match agility with, I do not know. Note, I have nothing against you, all of these methods constitute correct ways to use your airplane. I am only saying your relative success indicates what you were NOT doing with your Mustang.
2. 1v1 ACM problems, in order of easiest to most difficult, assuming more or less equal pilot skill.
Level One- Successfully prosecuting a turning engagement with an opponent in a similar or worse turning machine. Most people can learn how to do this consistently against typical MAers from a couple dozen hours in the TA/DA.
Level Two- Successfully prosecuting an E-fight against a decidedly more maneuverable opponent. Now, excepting the occasions where someone gets greedy and bites on a rope, this is an order of magnitude more difficult, in no small part because of greater gunnery challenges. You will not have the opportunity to get on an opponent's six and hammer away for a protracted period of time, as you will when you gain the upper hand in with a t'n'b machine.
Level Three- Overshoot fighting, in which the opponent's craft holds all the cards and you must basically entice him into making a mistake. Overshoots are not necessarily that difficult to come by in all circumstances, but the fact that you will likely get only 1 shot makes insane gunnery and prediction of exactly where your opponent will be crucial.
Of course, the typical MA fight is anything but 1v1, thus generalizations are hard to make. It would have to be admitted that faster planes toward the "BnZ" end of the spectrum are easier in the sense that it is possible to disengage from situations gone sour more often, but are not necessarily easier to get lots of kills in.
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(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x100/scot12b/71877322_3f7fc3473b.jpg)
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1. Your K/D ratio in the P-51D last tour was not earned attempting to engage co-e Spits in turn fights. Whether it came mostly from application of E-fighting, picking, buff-hunting, or deliberately isolating and then running down and shooting A/C that the Pony can more or less match agility with, I do not know. Note, I have nothing against you, all of these methods constitute correct ways to use your airplane. I am only saying your relative success indicates what you were NOT doing with your Mustang.
2. 1v1 ACM problems, in order of easiest to most difficult, assuming more or less equal pilot skill.
Level One- Successfully prosecuting a turning engagement with an opponent in a similar or worse turning machine. Most people can learn how to do this consistently against typical MAers from a couple dozen hours in the TA/DA.
Level Two- Successfully prosecuting an E-fight against a decidedly more maneuverable opponent. Now, excepting the occasions where someone gets greedy and bites on a rope, this is an order of magnitude more difficult, in no small part because of greater gunnery challenges. You will not have the opportunity to get on an opponent's six and hammer away for a protracted period of time, as you will when you gain the upper hand in with a t'n'b machine.
Level Three- Overshoot fighting, in which the opponent's craft holds all the cards and you must basically entice him into making a mistake. Overshoots are not necessarily that difficult to come by in all circumstances, but the fact that you will likely get only 1 shot makes insane gunnery and prediction of exactly where your opponent will be crucial.
Of course, the typical MA fight is anything but 1v1, thus generalizations are hard to make. It would have to be admitted that faster planes toward the "BnZ" end of the spectrum are easier in the sense that it is possible to disengage from situations gone sour more often, but are not necessarily easier to get lots of kills in.
I don't know that I agree with your assessment as to the levels... not that I disagree either. FWIW. I'll engage a Co-E spit any time. Doesn't mean I always win but I'll Co E fight any plane.
Now, what does all your typing have to do with what 1+44 said about BnZ requiring no skills. Perhaps I'm being especially obtuse but I don't see the connection.
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
i was wondering how long it would take for someone to get the reference. :)
zuii
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No, actually I don't know what you mean other than what you said. If you meant something other than BnZ takes no skill, tell me what exactly you meant.
I wouldn't say it takes no skill, but it certainly the method of least skill and absolute minimum risk. And in general is most successful in the MA when used against cons already engaged. In that scenario it equals no skill.
<S>...-Gixer
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I don't know that I agree with your assessment as to the levels... not that I disagree either. FWIW. I'll engage a Co-E spit any time. Doesn't mean I always win but I'll Co E fight any plane.
In a true Co-E fight, both of you starting above corner speed, you are an exceptional pilot (which more than anyone cares to admit consists of being an excellent gunner) who stands a good chance of getting a killing blow in before the speed bleeds down enough for the Spit to hold all the cards.
Also, there are many situations where one may be co-alt but NOT necessarily Co-E, because of the speed the Pony carries in level flight, and the questionable merging practices of many newb Spit drivers can only the E gap.. I'm thinking of one of the last Pony v C-Hog clips you posted here...
In any case, are you telling me you won't extend if the extending option is open and the situation has obviously gone completely sour?
Now, what does all your typing have to do with what 1+44 said about BnZ requiring no skills. Perhaps I'm being especially obtuse but I don't see the connection.
My point was that flying a "bnz" plane is not dead easy compared to low altitude furballing. Especially in terms of kills/time and kills/sortie as opposed to pure k/d ratio. I believe someone posted that the N1K currently has the highest k/d among the 4 most popular, and that makes sense, since it turns well, handles well, has lots of guns, and lots of ammo. These two traits are apparently what makes a plane "easy" for the vast majority of players, not speed or climb rate.
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If you like to BnZ, let it be, you're having fun, it's your money. Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill
pfff
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My thread is forum gold, it should be melted down, turned into minature f/a-18 fighter jets and handed out to everyone who participated.
:rofl Agreed!
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I wouldn't say it takes no skill, but it certainly the method of least skill and absolute minimum risk. And in general is most successful in the MA when used against cons already engaged. In that scenario it equals no skill.
<S>...-Gixer
Having experimented with both :D , the easiest way to kill an already engaged bandit (or any bandit) is to fly right up to his six with a reasonably controlled closure rate, in something that turns as well or better, stay on his six, and shoot him. Preferably with cannons. Lots and lots of cannons. Hence the N1K statistic making perfect sense.
By comparison, any gunnery/killing where the closure rate is high and where you can not follow the opponent's turn very long is exponentially more difficult. If BnZing reduces risk on one end, it increases difficulty of killing on the other.
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In a true Co-E fight, both of you starting above corner speed, you are an exceptional pilot (which more than anyone cares to admit consists of being an excellent gunner) who stands a good chance of getting a killing blow in before the speed bleeds down enough for the Spit to hold all the cards.
Also, there are many situations where one may be co-alt but NOT necessarily Co-E, because of the speed the Pony carries in level flight, and the questionable merging practices of many newb Spit drivers can only the E gap.. I'm thinking of one of the last Pony v C-Hog clips you posted here...
Certainly I agree that Co-alt and Co-E are different.
In the C-hog film I posted, the Hog was higher and initailly faster. In the dive I had to slow down to allow him to catch me; a tricky proposition it is to slow down so a c-hog can catch you, without getting yourself obliterated.
In any case, are you telling me you won't extend if the extending option is open and the situation has obviously gone completely sour?
No, when did I mention something like this?
I thank you for your kind words about my game play. IMHO my choice of ride doesn't have much(yes it has some) to do with what success I have in the game. I will explain: In the MA, with it's mass of players, it is my opinion that perhaps the most important skill to have is to be able to kill your opponent quickly. This is a combination of planning, decision making(SA), and gunnery. With the huge amount of planes in the virtual air, even a 10 to 20 second fight is going to attract others. I strive to find a way to kill the bad guys as quickly as possible so I don't become a victim myself.
There are plenty of guys who can fly circles around me in the DA . But the DA is not the MA. In the MA, SA plays a much bigger role. There are some great sticks in the MA who are real aces 1v1 but get frequently shot down. You know some of them as some are quite verbal on 200: "Ganger" "Coward" "let's go to the DA, I'll own you"..... as if it's not their fault they couldn't(or simply chose not to) track more than one plane.
The ace 1v1 guys that don't care that they got shot down won't be seen typing these things.
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lets be fair.
turning in circles in a furball is as easy as pointing the nose up, then down.
shooting planes that are already engaged is so easy a cave man could do it.
I would ask you which is more challenging...fighting against several planes in which you don't hold the advantage, and are probably in at a disadvantage....or fighting against a single plane in which you hold a significant advantage?...then add a few friends. SA is important to every type of pilot, and is not more important to any single style but equally important to both. Though while furballing, it will be stressed more as you are constantly thinking about your target, and the 6 guys trying to pick you while you fight.
I don't think using a planes ability to turn is a fair assesment of why turn fighting is easier than bnz'ing. Maybe look at who's flying it, gun packages, ability to disengage, and the manner in which it is flown. You can bnz and run in any plane. Maybe another example would be if noobs are choosing the N1K, and flying in hoardes at all times, vulching fields etc, you might expect k/d and k/t for the plane type to be fairly high...though individual stats somewhat low.
I generally choose to furball, I expect to be shot down many times. I wouldn't try to call someone out who picked my plane, or ran from a fight, eject on sight of contact, or any of the 100 dweeby lame things I usually see. But when I see stuff that is lame, dweeby, gamey, I think of the player as such. A picker is a picker. A vulcher is a vulcher. A furballer a furballer. No need to justify, or try to explain which is better, which takes more skill, it is what it is. As a furballer, I fully embrace the idea that I don't usually drop bombs, I don't usually listen to what others tell me to do, and go about my gameplay as carefree as possible. A bnz'r (for example) should just embrace their profession and realize they want to have stats/score, they want to never fight from a disadvantage, never take any chances. It's not right or wrong.
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The best BnZ pilots can also fight low and slow when the need arises, in the same plane they BnZ in. The rest rely on horsepower, surprise, and firepower. While most TnBers can play the BnZ game to atleast moderate success, not many of the BnZ guys can be successful at the TnB. This is simply an observation, from years of playing this foolish game.
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The best BnZ pilots can also fight low and slow when the need arises, in the same plane they BnZ in. The rest rely on horsepower, surprise, and firepower. While most TnBers can play the BnZ game to atleast moderate success, not many of the BnZ guys can be successful at the TnB. This is simply an observation, from years of playing this foolish game.
Really? I find something like Spit v. Spit co-E in the MA easier than something like D9 v. Spit, really, no matter what the E advantage.
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What's with the F/A 18 lately? Everyone is talkin bout someone flyin F/A 18s......wtf? The Super Hornet seems like a wonderful aircraft. :confused: does anyone want to argue this ?
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Certainly I agree that Co-alt and Co-E are different.
This is a very important distinction. I don't see it that much anymore in the MA, but in AW this was the jedi trick of the masters. It's referred to as "Hiding E". It's the crafty and sneaky way of engaging and seducing an opponent to engage by making him believe he is at least Co-E or even has an E advantage. It's done by generating E outside of the visual range he could see you do it, then approach to merge from an aspect that makes it hard for him to accurately judge your rate of closure compared to his, often from slightly below him in a shallow climb. Then when he's passed the point of no return you make him pay. This is part of E fighting, as is BnZ.
As far as E-Fighting w/ BnZing vs. TnB'ing is concerned. I can say as someone who learned to play TnB'ing first, then evolved to be an E fighting specialist a few years later, it's really not more difficult to get kills per se one way or the other, but it is harder to be as efficient a killer BnZ'ing. The way you have to get kills is quite different from the perspective of pace and initiative fighting vs. reactionary fighting. It's much harder to kill quickly E fighting, because you are generally in a plane that has the only real defense, if in a bad situation, to disengage completely. A TnBer can stay defensive with a chance of turning the tables to regain the offensive much more readily just by sheer maneuverability without having to disengage at all, especially if his opponent(s) are less maneuverable.
Without the E advantage an E fighter really cannot shake an equally skilled pilot in a more maneuverable plane on his six. The reverse is not true however, a more maneuverable plane can shake or avoid a less maneuverable E fighter indefinitely, fairly easily, even if less skilled. So, there's really a lot less margin for error E fighting, there's no failsafe if you have your E advantage negated, you're pretty much toast.
What makes a good BnZ'er is timing. Timing and aim is everything. Everything is much faster paced at or near the point of engagement BnZng as opposed to TnB'ing. It's quite difficult in a lot of situations to be at the exact right 3 dimensional space at the exact right time with closure rates potentially as high as 1,000 mph on a maneuvering opponent, especially if he's aware of you. Then to get the timing right, get the shot off, make it count and do all that without negating your E advantage on that adversary, if not destroyed, or others nearby is often quite tricky. While not to belittle TnB'ing, I wouldn't necessarily call flinging a Spit16 around, latching onto someone's six and hammering away quite the same degree of difficulty, especially if the adversary is of inferior skill or not in one of the 3 or 4 more maneuverable planes in the game.
As someone alluded to, may have been AKAK. BnZing is pure aggression, if you have the advantage you should be attacking or at least poised in a coiled position to pounce at the first attractive opportunity and press the advantage until you no longer have one or he is destroyed. What people see is a lot of people BnZing who really don't understand how to exploit the initiative of a fast plane in an advantageous energy state. What they don't consider is those folks, while they may be a pest, are almost invariably sporting a paltry 1 or 2 kills an hour. It is nearly impossible to BnZ or just E fight in general without an aggressive spirit and maintain anything that could be considered reasonable killing efficiency.
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lets be fair.
they want to have stats/score, they want to never fight from a disadvantage, never take any chances. It's not right or wrong.
It's wrong... well that is to say, you're wrong.
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Steve can you post a link to the you versus c-hog film please?
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Certainly I agree that Co-alt and Co-E are different.
In the C-hog film I posted, the Hog was higher and initailly faster. In the dive I had to slow down to allow him to catch me; a tricky proposition it is to slow down so a c-hog can catch you, without getting yourself obliterated.
No, when did I mention something like this?
I thank you for your kind words about my game play. IMHO my choice of ride doesn't have much(yes it has some) to do with what success I have in the game. I will explain: In the MA, with it's mass of players, it is my opinion that perhaps the most important skill to have is to be able to kill your opponent quickly. This is a combination of planning, decision making(SA), and gunnery. With the huge amount of planes in the virtual air, even a 10 to 20 second fight is going to attract others. I strive to find a way to kill the bad guys as quickly as possible so I don't become a victim myself.
There are plenty of guys who can fly circles around me in the DA . But the DA is not the MA. In the MA, SA plays a much bigger role. There are some great sticks in the MA who are real aces 1v1 but get frequently shot down. You know some of them as some are quite verbal on 200: "Ganger" "Coward" "let's go to the DA, I'll own you"..... as if it's not their fault they couldn't(or simply chose not to) track more than one plane.
The ace 1v1 guys that don't care that they got shot down won't be seen typing these things.
Not disagreeing, or trying to start anything, because I really could care less about the style one chooses to fight in, but wouldn't your quoted (in red) statement be the motto of a typical B&Z style player.
Just Wondering,
Fred
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it is my opinion that perhaps the most important skill to have is to be able to kill your opponent quickly.
I've always prefered to play with my food first.
<S>...-Gixer
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Im thinking this might turn into an argument.
zuii
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yes they r arguing :D
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pfff
Well said Bro. :aok
1+44=45 :noid could this actually mean something? :noid
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My thread is forum gold, it should be melted down, turned into minature f/a-18 fighter jets and handed out to everyone who participated.
Can they come with a stand and plague? "I survived the '08 flame wars" or something fun?
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:rofl hypocrite.
:rofl :rofl
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WHAT THE HELL!!! DO YOU THINK EVERYONE LIKES TO CHILL OUT? IM NOT SOME DAMN HIPPIE LIKE YOU!! I LIKE TO BE ANGRY AND EXCITED. I LIKE TO INSULT PEOPLES CHILDREN AND DROP BOMBS FROM MY FA/!8!!!!
I DONT NEED YOU TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO DAMN HIPPIE NAZI CANADIAN BNZER!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :devil :devil
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Someone seems a little tense.... :uhoh
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ok, now this is definitely an argument.
Oooo, its on!
zuii
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Somebody needs a drink,,, and oh, IN
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I just read down the AH General Discussion, the biggest threads were whines and rants and ALL of them ended in an Argument... I wonder how long this one will last w/o a single argument??
Why doesn't everyone just chill out? Have fun with the game, and don't spend your time here trying to have your way with a game, and don't try to put down other players... I've seen people talk about how much they love helping out newer players (or for that matter, EVERYone) and when someone asks for that help, they just are straight up mean or rude to them... (I've done it myself)
I bet that 50% of the people who quit the game without any sort of 'I'm quitting!' on General Discussion quit because of another player straight up pissing them off or trying to degrade them.
If you like to BnZ, let it be, you're having fun, it's your money. Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill, well okay... But what if you really like to BnZ? What if you really like to actually get kills because you're still learning the ACM for TnB? I understand people who put the people who vulch 2nd accounts for perks or rank, as those just ruin the aspect of the game. But you tell me, why do you act like this over the forums and over text, but when you get on to vox, 90% of the time, you're pretty nice to the person you were talking sh*t to 5 minutes ago on 200. I've had that happen with about 4 of my 5 big 200 rants/DA fights... Kinda confusing. :confused:
Just seems that when people say this over the intardnet, is this what they'd say to someone's face in real life? :huh
Smack talk is a HUGE part of thhis game. If it wasn't Scuzzy would have pulled the plug a long time ago, besides some of this is very funny.
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It's wrong... well that is to say, you're wrong.
it's a general statement. But I really don't see many bnz guys taking very many chances, nor are they fighting from a disadvantaged situation. You can't bnz someone from a disadvantage. I guess If you were slow, and the other guy was fast, and the alt advantage was not a factor, then It might be risky. To be clear, I'm not talking about the guys E fighting....more the HO and go, turn around after icon range is lost, or when enemy is engaged with someone else. I can understand people not wanting to hand their scalp off to the hoard as well. But if every flight you are looking to always fight with alt and E, run at any hint of a challenge, and only target those who are in a fight, I would have to wonder the motivation if it isn't one of the above. Some may make take the route of flying historically, though historically there were furballs and there were also pilots who took risks.
To be clear, people should fly in the way they seem fit. The purpose with my post, was that people should stop trying to defend how they fly (for whatever reason) and just admit to the reason why they fly that way. Instead of going off trying to explain why it takes more skill to do one thing as another, or why SA is more important in a different style. Flying well incorporates many skills, some in different ways. So if someone jumps on 200 complaining that you (a general you) picked them, just say ya I did.
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Not disagreeing, or trying to start anything, because I really could care less about the style one chooses to fight in, but wouldn't your quoted (in red) statement be the motto of a typical B&Z style player.
Just Wondering,
Fred
Well, it certainly could be. I was giving my opinion and not pretending to know what others felt about it. :salute
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ok, now this is definitely an argument.
Nah, it's really just a disagreement. :lol
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IN
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it's a general statement. But I really don't see many bnz guys taking very many chances, nor are they fighting from a disadvantaged situation. You can't bnz someone from a disadvantage. I guess If you were slow, and the other guy was fast, and the alt advantage was not a factor, then It might be risky. To be clear, I'm not talking about the guys E fighting....more the HO and go, turn around after icon range is lost, or when enemy is engaged with someone else. I can understand people not wanting to hand their scalp off to the hoard as well. But if every flight you are looking to always fight with alt and E, run at any hint of a challenge, and only target those who are in a fight, I would have to wonder the motivation if it isn't one of the above. Some may make take the route of flying historically, though historically there were furballs and there were also pilots who took risks.
To be clear, people should fly in the way they seem fit. The purpose with my post, was that people should stop trying to defend how they fly (for whatever reason) and just admit to the reason why they fly that way. Instead of going off trying to explain why it takes more skill to do one thing as another, or why SA is more important in a different style. Flying well incorporates many skills, some in different ways. So if someone jumps on 200 complaining that you (a general you) picked them, just say ya I did.
OK, I understand now. As far as SA goes, I think I brought it up but my only point was that SA plays a bigger role in the MA than it does in the DA. I in no way related SA as being a more important skill along with a particular style of play.
As far as styles go, I think it's important to have varying styles in the MA. Some people whine about BnZ'ers, some about other planes etc.. I think the variety is a positive aspect of MA play.
I do some whining of my own. I whine about alt monkeys.(I want them to come down so I can kill them). I whine some about HO-TARDS, and will in the future as I think HOing is the lamest form of gameplay besides score padding.*
I kept track for a couple of weeks and deduced that in over 96% of all my merges, the enemy was trying for a HO. This is one thing that has changed about the game. Ironically, in the past, I have said that gameplay hasn't changed much. This may be anecdotal but it may also be one telling factor that game play has indeed changed. I may have been wrong.
* Forcing a merge into the face of a plane like a 110 might be the exception.
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IN
uhhh.. why did you feel the nees to post this. There's not really any flaming going on in this thread. Short on getting attention today?
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I kept track for a couple of weeks and deduced that in over 96% of all my merges, the enemy was trying for a HO. This is one thing that has changed about the game. ...
Does that imply that in the past you did not see such a high percentage of HO attempts?
My experience from Warbirds was that an HO on the merge was very common. Any speculation on why the number of HO attempts has increased?
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uhhh.. why did you feel the nees to post this. There's not really any flaming going on in this thread. Short on getting attention today?
You bet. What the hell is nees any way?
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You bet. What the hell is nees any way?
A little anal about spelling now are we?
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A little anal about spelling now are we?
It very banal in here.
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*steps in, looks around, walks away*
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A little anal about spelling now are we?
Typos get him excited, since he actually has nothing of substance to add to the thread.
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Does that imply that in the past you did not see such a high percentage of HO attempts?
My experience from Warbirds was that an HO on the merge was very common. Any speculation on why the number of HO attempts has increased?
Well my memory says I didn't used to experience such a high percentage of first merge HO's. What I'm hoping for is that this isn't the distorted memory of "the good ole days."
I can't say why first merge HO's have increased. Some speculate that the latest generation of players is less skilled than those in the past.
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Typos get him excited, since he actually has nothing of substance to add to the thread.
You even know what banal means?
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can't we all just get along????? :D
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You even know what banal means?
Yes, I wasn't responding to that post. Even so, the post you are referring to has nothing to do with the thread.
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Yes, I wasn't responding to that post. Even so, the post you are referring to has nothing to do with the thread.
can't we all just get along????? :D
What he said.
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Typos get him excited, since he actually has nothing of substance to add to the thread.
Show me a thread where glok posted anything of substance that contributed to a thread and I'll buy you a beer the next time I'm in Arizona.
ack-ack
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Show me a thread where glok posted anything of substance that contributed to a thread and I'll buy you a beer the next time I'm in Arizona.
ack-ack
Way back when i first join.
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Show me a thread where glok posted anything of substance that contributed to a thread and I'll buy you a beer the next time I'm in Arizona.
ack-ack
From my experience, much of what he types is moot to the point of the thread and rife with vapidity so I'm not going to torture myself by reading his posts. Will you buy me a beer anyway? :D
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You even know what banal means?
Yes I do know what anal, not banal, means, Mr. Spell check police . Thanks for asking though.
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Nah, it's really just a disagreement. :lol
No its not,, its an argument! :cool:
zuii!
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Well i ruin this thread my job here is done thank you for all coming. :D
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Well i ruin this thread my job here is done thank you for all coming. :D
Isn't that what you do in every thread?
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Well i ruin this thread my job here is done thank you for all coming. :D
This was a good thread. Why would you want to be a banus and try to ruin it? :rofl
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If you like to BnZ, let it be, you're having fun, it's your money. Everyone (including me) puts down BnZ'ers because it takes no skill,
BnZ takes no skill? :huh
I disagree
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BnZ takes no skill? :huh
I disagree
I do as well. I'm amazed how guys can still be able to turn while diving on somebody. However it to me is a little one dimentional. Some B&Zers can turn fight most can't . The minute the B&Z fails and they mis judged the amount of E his foe really has they will just run or as they put it "extend" out of the fight until they regain alt or some fast plane runs his butt down.
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BnZ takes no skill? :huh
I disagree
Usually the argument follows that BnZ does take skill. But extending past icon range isn't BnZ. Thats one pass and haul "rear end".
If you rely on BnZ as your lone attack tatic you will more than likely end up timid and have in turn lose when you get caught without all the advantages.
or something like that.
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BnZ takes no skill? :huh
I disagree
I think the problem is that players like 1pluss44 is that they really don't know what BnZ is and just parrot what they see others say about it. To them, it seems like any vertical maneuvering is considered to be BnZ.
Yesterday, I was in the MW when I encountered a Hurricane IIc and I engaged the bandit. The Hurricane immediately went into a flat lufberry turn which I responded with using vertical turns (Yo-Yos and the like) to cut inside the Hurricane's better flat turn rate. I got the kill and the Hurricane IIc pilot (fireplug) immediately started in with the 'skilless BnZ' crap. No matter how I would explain it to him or show him (be repeatedly shooting him down) he couldn't grasp the concept of using vertical maneuvers to defeat a plane with a better flat turn rate. To him, any move in the vertical was "BnZ", even when we were in a downward spiral turn fight he considered it to be BnZ. So when guys talk about using BnZ tactics taking no skill, they either 1) don't understand the concept of BnZ or 2) think players that dive and haul bellybutton a sector away is BnZ, which is anything but BnZ.
So the way I see it, the problem isn't BnZ, it's players that don't understand the concept of it or don't even know what it is and automatically assume any maneuvering in the vertical is BnZ. It just boils down to player ignorance.
ack-ack
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I don't think many of you 38 guys are B&Zers by definition. For me it's very difficult to defeat a 38 with alt. Not much a guy can do except try and lure one into a turn fight and hope the guy loses enough E to get an upper hand . Unfortunately non of you guys ever lose enough E for me to do so . If you miss the shot it's back up to the perch and try again. Not many attempts are usually needed because by that time all my E is gone dodging attempts. Not many of the planes in MW can out run a 38, so running is never an option and the planes I fly are all but dead before the fight begins.
Fireplug is one of MW's biggest whinners. The other day he was about 2-3k below me in his hoicanne. I was in a shallow turn just looking to see if he noticed me. When I did dive on him he went immediately vertical for a Ho shot. I couldn't believe he did that so I hoed him to a fine powder. He then started up with his all I can do is ho and how I warped behind him a couple of times with me in his sights ruining his shot. I just laughed at him . The dude had to broadcast this on all channel in some attempt belittle me for his mistake. My thought upon first spotting his plane was to use the 38 guys philosophy of staying over him and attacking him until he made a mistake.
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Ha!
I've always suspected they complain more about boom and zoom when it works than when if fails.
How can you "skill-less" and yet defeat a much better turning aircraft 1v1? That is not skill-less, that is the very zenith of ACM IMHO.
I think the problem is that players like 1pluss44 is that they really don't know what BnZ is and just parrot what they see others say about it. To them, it seems like any vertical maneuvering is considered to be BnZ.
Yesterday, I was in the MW when I encountered a Hurricane IIc and I engaged the bandit. The Hurricane immediately went into a flat lufberry turn which I responded with using vertical turns (Yo-Yos and the like) to cut inside the Hurricane's better flat turn rate. I got the kill and the Hurricane IIc pilot (fireplug) immediately started in with the 'skilless BnZ' crap. No matter how I would explain it to him or show him (be repeatedly shooting him down) he couldn't grasp the concept of using vertical maneuvers to defeat a plane with a better flat turn rate. To him, any move in the vertical was "BnZ", even when we were in a downward spiral turn fight he considered it to be BnZ. So when guys talk about using BnZ tactics taking no skill, they either 1) don't understand the concept of BnZ or 2) think players that dive and haul bellybutton a sector away is BnZ, which is anything but BnZ.
So the way I see it, the problem isn't BnZ, it's players that don't understand the concept of it or don't even know what it is and automatically assume any maneuvering in the vertical is BnZ. It just boils down to player ignorance.
ack-ack
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...Just seems that when people say this over the intardnet, is this what they'd say to someone's face in real life? :huh
heck no, they would get a mouth full of broken teeth,and they know it.
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I think the problem is that players like 1pluss44 is that they really don't know what BnZ is and just parrot what they see others say about it. To them, it seems like any vertical maneuvering is considered to be BnZ.
True...
What most folks fail to grasp is the fact that BnZ is simply one facet of Energy fighting. But hey...if noobs wanna continue to think that what E fiters do is "easy"....let'em. Simply means they will continue to be targets for their betters. :D :rock
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I just read down the AH General Discussion, the biggest threads were whines and rants and ALL of them ended in an Argument... I wonder how long this one will last w/o a single argument??
Hey 1plus, no doubt about that. Check out my "Wyld Ride" thread.
Isnt that funny,all those "readers" and yet only one reply.(TY BCINHU, :aok).
Just wasnt negative enough I guess!
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1plus... Big fan of yours.... agreed but the complainers come out when we post positive topics in this forum! :furious
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LIKE ACKACK :furious
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I dont care alot about how other people fly. The whiners usually whine if you dont fly by their rules and fly in a way that does not suit the ride they are in. My "job" is to react and fly in a way that does _not_ make their ride superior to what im flying.
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LIKE ACKACK :furious
Your reading comprehension is just ask lacking as your flying skill. 1pluss44 was complaining about BnZers in this original post, suggest you go back and read it and then ask someone to explain it to you. I was merely making an observation how some don't know what BnZ is and automatically assume any vertical maneuvering is BnZ.
ack-ack
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Ok, definitely leaning towards an argument here.
zuii
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i so love killing 190s, 51, 109s, doing there ol BnZ tactics, in my Hurri.
allthough when the stick is flying more along the lines of E-fighting they are much harder to kill.
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If most of the whiners had Played AHI they wouldn't be whining about Scoring, Plane modeling, Tactics of others, ect. We just had fun engaging in a great flight sim. I commend HTC on how far they have come and the constant improving of the game over the years. :aok :salute
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i so love killing 190s, 51, 109s, doing there ol BnZ tactics, in my Hurri.
allthough when the stick is flying more along the lines of E-fighting they are much harder to kill.
Yeah, but, as someone who has the most kills in a Jug and and a Hurri this tour, I know which one is the easier to fly.
Now if someone is really sharp at E-management, gunnery, and patience, and has the TIME to work, the guy E fighting the Hurricane should win most of the time unless the Hurri can swap ends and HO unexpectedly. But all those factors are easier talked about than acquired, and the Hurri is MUCH easier to fly in terms of what your decision tree is, maneuvers, stability, etc. And once you do manage to get closure on something in a Hurri and force the turning fight, full planform tracking shots at really close range are as easy as it get as far as gunnery is concerned.
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Yeah, but, as someone who has the most kills in a Jug and and a Hurri this tour, I know which one is the easier to fly.
Now if someone is really sharp at E-management, gunnery, and patience, and has the TIME to work, the guy E fighting the Hurricane should win most of the time unless the Hurri can swap ends and HO unexpectedly. But all those factors are easier talked about than acquired, and the Hurri is MUCH easier to fly in terms of what your decision tree is, maneuvers, stability, etc. And once you do manage to get closure on something in a Hurri and force the turning fight, full planform tracking shots at really close range are as easy as it get as far as gunnery is concerned.
You nailed it right there...That's the core truth of it...An E fighter is only dangerous with E and only remains dangerous if the pilot is able to exercise good E management. A more maneuverable plane is always dangerous. If a less maneuverable plane doesn't have the E to get away from a more maneuverable one he's totally screwed unless the more maneuverable plane is piloted by someone who is incompetent. Combine that with what you mentioned about close range high profile tracking shots vs. high closure rate, nanosecond long, extremely high deflection shots and you get the picture.
The only difficult thing in a slow, but maneuverable plane is getting in tight where the prey can't escape. Once you do that though, he's just meat on the table.
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You nailed it right there...That's the core truth of it...An E fighter is only dangerous with E and only remains dangerous
Exception to the rule being the F4U, with it's gamey bag of tricks combining seriously over modeled flaps and landing gear it's dangerous at low speeds or with E. Being able to out float a zeke at low speeds is just ridiculous for an aircraft of it's size and weight.
<S>...-Gixer
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Yeah, but, as someone who has the most kills in a Jug and and a Hurri this tour, I know which one is the easier to fly.
Now if someone is really sharp at E-management, gunnery, and patience, and has the TIME to work, the guy E fighting the Hurricane should win most of the time unless the Hurri can swap ends and HO unexpectedly. But all those factors are easier talked about than acquired, and the Hurri is MUCH easier to fly in terms of what your decision tree is, maneuvers, stability, etc. And once you do manage to get closure on something in a Hurri and force the turning fight, full planform tracking shots at really close range are as easy as it get as far as gunnery is concerned.
gunnery, this is where i am seriously lacking, after 5 years you would think i would get better, it seems like ive gotten worse.
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lets be fair.
Yanksfan is my HERO, he is a shineing example of everything a squadie should be! I can only walk in his shadow however, he is a great great man!
Fixed that for ya buddy! :aok :rofl
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Exception to the rule being the F4U, with it's gamey bag of tricks combining seriously over modeled flaps and landing gear it's dangerous at low speeds or with E. Being able to out float a zeke at low speeds is just ridiculous for an aircraft of it's size and weight.
<S>...-Gixer
Yea, that's a FM bug though...Hopefully it's on the "fix" to do list...
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gunnery, this is where i am seriously lacking, after 5 years you would think i would get better, it seems like ive gotten worse.
This isn't going to be encouraging, but gunnery is one skill that is 90% innate aptitude and only about 10% learned/experience. After five years you have definitely learned/experienced practically every shot there is if you spend most of your time fightering. If your gunnery still blows it's just an innate limitation. I honestly can't think of one person I've known after 18+ years of this who had poor gunnery after a few years and became a good shot later. The time-frame varies by the individual and playtime, but for the most part after a year or two your gunnery is as good as it's going to get most likely.
I encourage you to pass along some films of yourself in a wide array of shooting positions to an AH trainer and see if they notice something fundamental you are doing wrong.
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Looks like ACKACK pharted again ooops farted
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Flying in and out of your own ack in a Hurri is not BnZ and its not really killing when the ack shoots people down. Nice try though.
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Yea, that's a FM bug though...Hopefully it's on the "fix" to do list...
And how long has that bug been out? We probably won't see the fix any time soon if at all. I've been back for just over a year and it's seems to of been out couple years prior to that. Didn't exist (and neither did many F4Us) when I left and that was around 03. In the mean time I'll give them the attention they deserve, by targeting them first and picking them off however I find em.
<S>...-Gixer
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And how long has that bug been out? We probably won't see the fix any time soon if at all. I've been back for just over a year and it's seems to of been out couple years prior to that. Didn't exist (and neither did many F4Us) when I left and that was around 03. In the mean time I'll give them the attention they deserve, by targeting them first and picking them off however I find em.
<S>...-Gixer
Yea, I've noticed as this became public knowledge, a lot of score potatos formerly in Spits, Nikis, and Lgay7s are now always in an F4U variant.
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Yea, I've noticed as this became public knowledge, a lot of score potatos formerly in Spits, Nikis, and Lgay7s are now always in an F4U variant.
Yes, clearly, 1V1 there isn't a better plane than the f4u's
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You only need to pop into the DA to see how popular the f4u-C is, I would hate to see how the MA would look if it ever became unperked.
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This isn't going to be encouraging, but gunnery is one skill that is 90% innate aptitude and only about 10% learned/experience. After five years you have definitely learned/experienced practically every shot there is if you spend most of your time fightering. If your gunnery still blows it's just an innate limitation. I honestly can't think of one person I've known after 18+ years of this who had poor gunnery after a few years and became a good shot later. The time-frame varies by the individual and playtime, but for the most part after a year or two your gunnery is as good as it's going to get most likely.
I encourage you to pass along some films of yourself in a wide array of shooting positions to an AH trainer and see if they notice something fundamental you are doing wrong.
i totally know what you are saying, i have looked at my films,(not that I'm a trainer) my rounds are always dropping behind my target, its not like i never hit but my hit% is 4 i think now, and the most i have gotten up to is 5% and to me that suks, but i have flown against the hourde since my beginning days in AH, and my best sortie was 7 kills of the 9 that where attacking me, now i know there are not many that could do that.
i have heard that your ether a shot or a stick, i guess I'm a stick, and I'm pretty much happy with that.
allthough i will say this sometimes it seems like i cant miss,but those are rare days.
and i do agree with you about the innate part of gunnery
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gunnery is one skill that is 90% innate aptitude and only about 10% learned/experience.
Gunnery just takes practice like everything else, though imho it's helped greatly by sticking with one particular fighter. I find that my gunnery in the Yak U is now average after spending so much time in the Yak T with it's 37mm. Constantly switch between different fighters/gun platforms and your gunnery will sufer each time for it.
Also using tracers makes you lazy imho, as you never take the time to practice and learn to time shots, instead taking the easy option by just holding down the trigger, making adjustments and letting the con fly into the hail.
Turn tracers off,convergence under 200 and as your gunnery (especially timing) improves extend the ranges and increase the angles/speeds, after a short while you'll successfully be pulling off more and more extreme shots while making fatal hits with shorter bursts.
And if you really want a challange try the Yak 9T :D
<S>...-Gixer
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You only need to pop into the DA to see how popular the f4u-C is, I would hate to see how the MA would look if it ever became unperked.
Come on, Thrila....you've been around long enuff to remember what the MA looked like when the Chog wasn't perked. :)
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I don't have a problem with you Chalenge, don't take this the wrong way, but there are two times when I really gotta chuckle at my own team-mates. Sometimes I'll even poke a bit of gentle fun on range about it... ;)
1. When I'm with the defenders, there is a horde of us in Spits, Las, etc, you name it, and there is one bandit overhead. And guys get all worked up because he won't slow down and get involved with trying to furball with all gazillion of us. :lol
2. When there is a large group of us attacking the base, we have numbers, we have energy, and there are like one or two defenders. And then the friendly horde grows wrathful because these two poor bandits who just took off, with every disadvantage EXCEPT their ack are using that advantage. :rofl
Flying in and out of your own ack in a Hurri is not BnZ and its not really killing when the ack shoots people down. Nice try though.