Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MiloMorai on November 10, 2008, 09:06:22 AM
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I have come across some posts that have stated the Spitfire had it tips changed from to standard to clipped and back depending on the what the mission was to be. This seems a bit far fetched. Any truth to this?
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ah, no.
Dont' take my word for it- I'm an American Iron freak. I'm sure hux'll be along shortly to straighten this out.
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Don't think so. There were often high and low-altitude (clipped) subvariants of the major production models (Spit V for example), but this was done at the factory, not in the field. I believe there were some Mk V's clipped in the field, but there was no provision for reversing the procedure. This was initially done in response to testing of a captured 190, the first FW's having given the RAF a nasty surprise. These clipped Mk V's also got a different supercharger optimized for lower altitudes, hence the term "chopped and cropped".
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clipped wing spit 5 would be a nice addition to the game :D
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There was 3 different tips for the Spit:
- clipped (cap over the last wing rib)
- standard
- extended
All the tips were removable.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/SpitVIIIa-1.jpg)
This is a Mk VIII but was applicable to all Merlin powered Spits.
Cthulhu, that was CCC > clipped, crap, cropped
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The LF, F and HF designations have nothing to do with wingtips. That only refers to the engine used.
As to being able to change tips, that is what I have been led to believe, but I cannot vouch for it as I've never read of a case where anything was changed other than clipping the wings.
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Cthulhu, that was CCC > clipped, crap, cropped
I like that. :D
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Eventually i wonder if different wingtips could be selected in hangar? Would be great for the V, IX, XIV and Seafire.
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wasn't it clipped, CLAPPED and cropped?
Anyway, wingtips shorter and turbine settings for lower altitude, so a bit crapped for high alt, but completely insanely good at lower alt.
From wingcommander Harry Broadhurst the Mk IX LF clipped was the best..
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Eventually i wonder if different wingtips could be selected in hangar? Would be great for the V, IX, XIV and Seafire.
No. Not a good idea. This isnt a FPS shooter where we get to change clothing, etc.
Me thinks the clipping of the wings would have been done at the factory and not out in the field. *shrugs* IT certainly would not be done by a crewman with a few minutes notice to sramble for a misison, etc.
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It was not a complicated procedure to change the wing tips. Did they do it on a regular basis between missions? Nope. But it was done on occasion in the field. Stan Turner, for one, had regular wing tips added to his Spit XVI when he was a Wing Commander. It came to the squadron with clipped wings. They clipped them in the Middle East as well, or added extended wings as in when they modified the Spit Vs to go after the Ju86P recce birds.
I don't think it should be a hanger option though.
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Thanks Dan. Knew you would be along, eventually. :aok
For example, would it be safe to say if the a/c came with standard tips and the squadrons primary mission role changed to one of primarily low level missions the clipped tips might be installed?
Also do you have any numbers for Mk Vs, Mk IXs and Mk XVIs that came from the factory with clipped and standard tips.
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MiloMorai,
I don't have those numbers, but I can tell you that there were no Merlin 61 powered Spitfire Mk IXs that came from the factory with clipped wings, nor have I read of any Merlin 61 Spitfire Mk IXs that were clipped in the field. The Spitfire Mk IX in AH is a Merlin 61 powered bird.
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Karnak, it would be not logical for the Merlin 61 powered Spit IXs to have clipped wings because the engine was optimized for a higher altitude than the other 60 series engines. Or, am I thinking about the V-1650s? Anyways, the 61 had a different prop reduction and less boost than the others.
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Correct, but you can find Spitfire HF.Mk IXs with Merlin 70s (higher tuned than even the Merlin 61) with clipped wings. It was kind of arbitrary at times, e.g. this is the fighter we have and this is the mission profile it will be used of, clip the wings. LF, F and HF refers to the engine, the wings could be clipped, standard or extended on any of them. In practice only standard and clipped were used with any frequency.
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Correct, but you can find Spitfire HF.Mk IXs with Merlin 70s (higher tuned than even the Merlin 61) with clipped wings.
That is interesting. :salute
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Thanks Dan. Knew you would be along, eventually. :aok
For example, would it be safe to say if the a/c came with standard tips and the squadrons primary mission role changed to one of primarily low level missions the clipped tips might be installed?
Also do you have any numbers for Mk Vs, Mk IXs and Mk XVIs that came from the factory with clipped and standard tips.
Not sure on exact numbers. I do believe the 16 production run was standardized with clipped wings. You can find photos of 16s with full span, but they are few.
A good example of a squadron changing roles and changing wingtips would be 131 Squadron that was equipped with Spitfire VII. Around D-Day time their job changed from high alt to medium alt and even ground attack in the Spit VII which was specialized for high alt with the pressure cockpit and extended wings.
Two photos, and there are many, of 131 squadron Spit VIIs after losing their pointed tips, and getting standard wingtips. Some were even repainted in standard day camo, although not all were.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/33.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/44.jpg)
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No. Not a good idea. This isnt a FPS shooter where we get to change clothing, etc.
Me thinks the clipping of the wings would have been done at the factory and not out in the field. *shrugs* IT certainly would not be done by a crewman with a few minutes notice to sramble for a misison, etc.
Replacing the wingtips was a far less time consuming job than a complete repaint, if your point is true, then maybe we should remove custom skins, bomb/rocket loadouts, armament options too?
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Replacing the wingtips was a far less time consuming job than a complete repaint, if your point is true, then maybe we should remove custom skins, bomb/rocket loadouts, armament options too?
A bit sour are we?
My point was all about keeping the production models as they were and not to swap back and forth on minor tidbits such as slipped wings. You want clipped wings, take the over-modelled Spit16. You want a more traditional Spit model... take the Spit8/9/5. Your attempt to make swapping paint jobs in the same category as mechanically altering the plane doesnt really measure up due to the skins being unit specific, not plane or pilot specific. Likewise, the ground grews were able to load ord (more ord = more time, obviously) as needed within minutes of being told. Those same grounds crews did not simply remove wing tips upon command, those modifications came that way from the factory.
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Those same grounds crews did not simply remove wing tips upon command, those modifications came that way from the factory.
um yes they did - just a couple of bolts to undo, as mentioned earlier.
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We already have those "minor tidbits".
If you pick a DT the racks alter the top speed for some planes. Weapon choice alter plane weight and handling. Both are hangar options. Same category as clipped wings imho.
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A bit sour are we?
My point was all about keeping the production models as they were and not to swap back and forth on minor tidbits such as slipped wings. You want clipped wings, take the over-modelled Spit16. You want a more traditional Spit model... take the Spit8/9/5. Your attempt to make swapping paint jobs in the same category as mechanically altering the plane doesnt really measure up due to the skins being unit specific, not plane or pilot specific. Likewise, the ground grews were able to load ord (more ord = more time, obviously) as needed within minutes of being told. Those same grounds crews did not simply remove wing tips upon command, those modifications came that way from the factory.
Not at all, was just pointing out the flaws in your below argument: -
No. Not a good idea. This isnt a FPS shooter where we get to change clothing, etc.
Hence my skin comment (and it is time consuming to repaint an aircraft - see below).
Me thinks the clipping of the wings would have been done at the factory and not out in the field. *shrugs* IT certainly would not be done by a crewman with a few minutes notice to sramble for a misison, etc.
Perk option to remove wingtips on those aircraft which had them in service would make sense to me - more variants represented with minimal fuss. But then of course there are all sorts of complexities with different rated engines etc.
We already have options which seem to be invalid by your own guidelines of 'a few minutes'.
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The reason we won't get this option is because it changes the flight model and the game engine is not set up to do that in that manner.
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Not at all, was just pointing out the flaws in your below argument: -
Hence my skin comment (and it is time consuming to repaint an aircraft - see below).
Perk option to remove wingtips on those aircraft which had them in service would make sense to me - more variants represented with minimal fuss. But then of course there are all sorts of complexities with different rated engines etc.
We already have options which seem to be invalid by your own guidelines of 'a few minutes'.
A "few minutes" is all that is needed to get ords, ammo, and fuel onto an aircraft in WII. There is a reason ground crews didnt mess with "to have or not to have" wing tips, #1 they couldnt do it and #2 it was model specific from the factory.
Again... one isnt "painting" their aircraft prior to takeoff as they would having the ground crews load up the bombs, fuel, ammo, etc, they're choosing which unit to be in. It is a completely different thing, 'tis you who has the flaw in the arguement, not I. My reference regarding the FPS is the "flash-bang" approach some what to take towards this game. I dont think we should be able to alter the mechanical make up of aircraft as you are suggesting, it didnt happen in WWII that is for sure.
Having clight crews bolt on or unbolt the wing tips is not something the pilot could do. It is no different then having an armorer swap out a 20in barrel for a 14/5in barrel on an M16 just before a soldier goes into a building to clear it out. It doesnt fit this sim-game, maybe in some FPS, but not here. Pick the plane you want as it is. Each plane has a role (or multi-roles). Sorry, but you cant put the tips back on your Spit16 for XYZ reason, guess you'll have to take the Spit8,9, or 14. In case you have not noticed, HTC isnt about to perk some loadout and not others on a plane... they either perk or dont perk an entire plane. So your option of partial perkin' isnt even a possibility.
I'm not sure what you're tollin' for... *shrugs*
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There is a reason ground crews didnt mess with "to have or not to have" wing tips, #1 they couldnt do it and #2 it was model specific from the factory.
etc.
noooo thats the point! it just required a couple of bolts to replace them - they were just wood afaik for standard and the weird extended tips, not sure about the caps.
http://spitfiresite.com/reference/variants-technology/2008/04/spitfire-wings-02.htm (http://spitfiresite.com/reference/variants-technology/2008/04/spitfire-wings-02.htm) :)
there is kind of a precedent with the B25 glass nose/strafer variants, but its probably just a tweak too far. would make sense for LF variants to have clipped and the others standard tips (overall I think this would be accurate and give us options.) not sure which spits are LF in AH, I'm sure someone will chip in... ;)
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I asked HT about this some time ago.
The problem wasnt with allowing for the tips in the FM, they could be treated like ord in their effects on the FM.
I was also after being able to choose for eg a Merlin 61 or 70 for the IX, or a Merlin 45/46 or 55M for the V from the hanger, but this wasn't possible with the current game setup.
Smokinloom - The tips weren't model specific per se (all XVI were produced clipped, all FR XIVs were clipped although produced as full span F XIVs). The tips could be, and frequently were changed at squadron level, especially if their role changed.
HF VI, VII, VIII and IX typically had extended tips, yet often had the tips changed to full or clipped as the war progressed.
Yes the tips were changed by your common run of the mill 'erk', didn't have to go anywhere special for it.
If it could be added as a hanger option for common types then I say yes.
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SmokinLoon,
You keep saying that ground crews couldn't do it. That is wrong. It could be, and was, done at airfields.
Argue against it, fine, but use facts, not lies.
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there is kind of a precedent with the B25 glass nose/strafer variants, but its probably just a tweak too far. would make sense for LF variants to have clipped and the others standard tips (overall I think this would be accurate and give us options.) not sure which spits are LF in AH, I'm sure someone will chip in... ;)
Although not designated LF - The XVI is fitted with the low alt Merlin 266, and the VIII with the low alt Merlin 66.
Bear in mind the Merlin 266 was just an American built Merlin 66, so the XVI could also be designated as an LF IXe.
The V, IX and XIV are F versions.
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SmokinLoon,
You keep saying that ground crews couldn't do it. That is wrong. It could be, and was, done at airfields.
Argue against it, fine, but use facts, not lies.
Lies? *sigh* Choose your wording a bit more carefully. My stand is not a "lie". If I am wrong, and am not, it is not because I am outright making a "lie".
I'll stand my ground that the wing tips were not swapped on or off by ground crews like they did adding ord, loading ammo, or drop tanks. If the *unit* changed roles then that is a different item altogether. If the unit went from fighter role to ground attack role then sure, I can see where the planes were altered. But from sortie to sortie... I'll bet it didnt happen.
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I didn't say it was done like ord. Many people here have described how it was done. You keep saying only at the factories when build despite having been told otherwise by people who know better. Thus you are lying to make a point, I chose the word carefully.
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I don't think anyone claimed it was done sortie to sortie?
RTHolmes - Just to further confuse, despite what all the books and kit manufacturers would have tou believe there was never a Spit IXc, either LF, F oir HF. The c designation was dropped from the IX onwards. It was just a plain Spit IX, unless you read pilots logbooks.......
They often refer to the Merlin 66 IX as the IX B, and the Merlin 61 IX as the IX A.
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A "few minutes" is all that is needed to get ords, ammo, and fuel onto an aircraft in WII. There is a reason ground crews didnt mess with "to have or not to have" wing tips, #1 they couldnt do it and #2 it was model specific from the factory.
Again... one isnt "painting" their aircraft prior to takeoff as they would having the ground crews load up the bombs, fuel, ammo, etc, they're choosing which unit to be in. It is a completely different thing, 'tis you who has the flaw in the arguement, not I. My reference regarding the FPS is the "flash-bang" approach some what to take towards this game. I dont think we should be able to alter the mechanical make up of aircraft as you are suggesting, it didnt happen in WWII that is for sure.
Having clight crews bolt on or unbolt the wing tips is not something the pilot could do. It is no different then having an armorer swap out a 20in barrel for a 14/5in barrel on an M16 just before a soldier goes into a building to clear it out. It doesnt fit this sim-game, maybe in some FPS, but not here. Pick the plane you want as it is. Each plane has a role (or multi-roles). Sorry, but you cant put the tips back on your Spit16 for XYZ reason, guess you'll have to take the Spit8,9, or 14. In case you have not noticed, HTC isnt about to perk some loadout and not others on a plane... they either perk or dont perk an entire plane. So your option of partial perkin' isnt even a possibility.
I'm not sure what you're tollin' for... *shrugs*
interestingly my grand farther (who was on hurricanes) was one of 6 crew that worked on one plane. Turn round time was approx 20-25 mins . That would also include changing the convergence of some or all the guns. (not an easy job but done if the pilot asked) . wind repairs and damage could be repaired fairly quickly . Ergo changing of a wingtip would be very easy for ground crew as it did not effect major control cables or surfaces and were only caps not major structural parts. You may find that Brit birds were far easier to work on than the US counterparts. (my grand farther also had the "miss fortune" as he put it of working on early P51's) .
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interestingly my grand farther (who was on hurricanes) was one of 6 crew that worked on one plane. Turn round time was approx 20-25 mins . That would also include changing the convergence of some or all the guns. (not an easy job but done if the pilot asked) . wind repairs and damage could be repaired fairly quickly . Ergo changing of a wingtip would be very easy for ground crew as it did not effect major control cables or surfaces and were only caps not major structural parts. You may find that Brit birds were far easier to work on than the US counterparts. (my grand farther also had the "miss fortune" as he put it of working on early P51's) .
Very interesting.
Generally speaking, I had always recieved the impression that British aircraft (and tanks) were harder to work on maintenance wise than their US counterparts, as they had been designed with less of an eye to serviceability than US birds.
While a comparison not strictly be 'apples-to-apples' it would be revealing if there were any comparative statistics on how long it took to service particular fighters in the RAF and USAAF. I know there are some fairly detailed breakdowns of USAAF statistics on aircraft maintenance. I wonder if there is anything at the PRO or Imperial War Museum doing likewise for British fighters.
I could imagine that the simply and ruggedly designed Hurricane was probably less maintenance intensive than the more advanced Spitfires, P-40s and P-39s of the period, not to mention the heavy and very complex P-38, with two engines and two turbosuperchargers. Eight .303s would of been something of a pain for the armourers though.
I wonder if there is anything in Morgan and Shacklady...
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What i find funny is the fact people use the field mods to keep other planes from being enhanced or even talked about.
Right right, keep pushing your agenda, NO FIELD MODS.
Just because it had the ability from the factory and was changed in the field, does not mean it should be added here. Dont open that door, or it will apply to every single other A/C in this game, and your beloved cliped wing spits might not be worth it.
:rock
"For whatever its worth, Throws his two cents"
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I agree that it should not be added.
My arguments are just about history and what did happen. I do not think it is appropriate to AH. You want clipped wings, take a Mk XVI. You want standard wings, take a Mk VIII, Mk IX or Mk XIV.
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I didn't say it was done like ord. Many people here have described how it was done. You keep saying only at the factories when build despite having been told otherwise by people who know better. Thus you are lying to make a point, I chose the word carefully.
Look up the definition. It is a deliberate communication of misinformaiton. Your choice of wording is wrong.
Let me say for the last time... the clipped wings happened at the factory or when the unit swapped roles. Not sortie to sortie and some want to have happen in AH2.
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Look up the definition. It is a deliberate communication of misinformaiton. Your choice of wording is wrong.
Let me say for the last time... the clipped wings happened at the factory or when the unit swapped roles. Not sortie to sortie and some want to have happen in AH2.
Sorry but that is the most assinine argument yet.
By that argument then you shouldn't be able to fly a Spit one sortie, a Pony the next, then a Buff, then maybe jump into a tank, as that didn't happen either.....in real life.
You can also if you like change skins EACH sortie, geez I bet that happened all the time.......in real life.
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Although not designated LF - The XVI is fitted with the low alt Merlin 266, and the VIII with the low alt Merlin 66.
Bear in mind the Merlin 266 was just an American built Merlin 66, so the XVI could also be designated as an LF IXe.
The V, IX and XIV are F versions.
aha thanks :) interesting, people often recommend the XIV as a high alt spit ingame but the speed/climb data looked more like the F version to me. since only a very small % of fights occur 20-30k in AH maybe there isnt a real need for a HF spit. then again, if there was a HF version I'd be more likely to look for fights up there :)
if the VIII is the LF version, should it have clipped wingtips to match? (as standard, not a hangar option.) plenty of references to clipped VIIIs around but no numbers I can find and photos tend to be standard tips (although I think this is perhaps because the clipped/extended just dont look as elegant as the standard tips.) VIII with much improved rollrate *drool*.
over-modelled Spit16.
this is new to me, any evidence?
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aha thanks :) interesting, people often recommend the XIV as a high alt spit ingame but the speed/climb data looked more like the F version to me. since only a very small % of fights occur 20-30k in AH maybe there isnt a real need for a HF spit. then again, if there was a HF version I'd be more likely to look for fights up there :)
if the VIII is the LF version, should it have clipped wingtips to match? (as standard, not a hangar option.) plenty of references to clipped VIIIs around but no numbers I can find and photos tend to be standard tips (although I think this is perhaps because the clipped/extended just dont look as elegant as the standard tips.) VIII with much improved rollrate *drool*.
this is new to me, any evidence?
Ah, just because it is an LF series Spit doesn't mean it was clipped, the two never went hand in hand.
Not all LF Spits were clipped, not all clipped Spits were LF models.
Some of the RAFs own tests with clipped wings were done using an F.V (not LF.V)
Been some debate about our VIII's roll rate, commonly held 'belief' is that the data used was from an VIII with extended tips, but HT has never chimed in to confirm or deny.
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Not far fetched at all, they were done at the Squadron level and were not a big deal to change. As has been said, the "LF" designations have nothing to do with the wing tips, those were strictly definitions of the type of engine it had.
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Look up the definition. It is a deliberate communication of misinformaiton. Your choice of wording is wrong.
Let me say for the last time... the clipped wings happened at the factory or when the unit swapped roles. Not sortie to sortie and some want to have happen in AH2.
And let's clarify that you are incorrect about this.
A pair of RCAF Spit 16s near the end of the war. lead guy has clipped wings. His Wingman has full span. I don't think that they were switching roles in flight :) I wouldn't want the option in AH, but it wasn't a big deal to change em.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/2SPits.jpg)
Larger version of the same photo. It was from a different book and too big to catch both birds on the scanner. Didn't want anyone thinking it was two different photos, which is why the smaller version was included. Squadron is the squadron of our default Spit 16 skin 443 RCAF
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Spitties.jpg)
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Ask Bodhi how hard they are to change--he does it for a living...
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Two quote the entire paragraph from the Spitfire V Manual on the wing tips.
"The detachable wing-tip is secured to the plane by two bolts, one at each spar, the joint being covered by a metal strip. The main rip and the spar portion of the tip are metal but the outer formers and ribs are of spruce, the metal skin being attached to them with wood screws. The leading edge of the wing-tip houses a navigation lamp. When the aircraft is flown without the wing-tips, a fairing is fitted in place of the wingtip. see Fig 6a"
Fig 6a
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/wintip.jpg)
Remembered this, just so we don't get and 'it was the end of the war' argument. 4th FG Spit Vs prior to transitioning to Jugs and while still flying Ops. One full span, one clipped. Same time
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/4thSpits.jpg)
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Might just be my eyes at this time of night, but it actually looks like that Spit in back has one full tip and one removed at the moment.
In case you have not noticed, HTC isnt about to perk some loadout and not others on a plane... they either perk or dont perk an entire plane. So your option of partial perkin' isnt even a possibility.
In case you have not noticed, one of the major upcoming features planned for Aces High is the perked loadout system, with which you may pay perks for the use of stronger (and possibly rarer) ammunition an ordnance. Other than the fact that you'd need to calculate a new flight model for every variant with every wing combo, it probably wouldn't be that hard of a job once that system is in place.
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Poss combos for AH Spits
CL-Clipped, FS-Full Span, EX-Extended.
Can't remember seeing a pic of a clipped VIII.
Clipped XIV was an FR.XIV
V - CL, FS
VIII- ??, FS, EX
IX - CL, FS ,EX
XIV- CL, FS
XVI- CL, FS
Think if they implemented it, I would only add the EX versions if they included a Merlin 70 series motor.
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Oh there are clipped wing Spitfire VIII's.
Some served in Italy. I have some pics in Late Marque Spitfire Aces, but picture hangar isn't working.
Guppy has the same book, he can scan it for us :D
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Then use something else, like Photobucket.
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Oh there are clipped wing Spitfire VIII's.
Some served in Italy. I have some pics in Late Marque Spitfire Aces, but picture hangar isn't working.
Guppy has the same book, he can scan it for us :D
Almost missed it.
Two clipped 8s from the MTO, one a senior officer's bird. I'd like that one in my garage thanks :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Clipped93.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/clipped8.jpg)
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From a game play perspective I could see clipping the Mk V's wing for a little variety, but not the whole lineup of Spits.
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just out of interest I asked a squaddie who's company restore/remanufacture spits and they are never asked for clipped or extended tips for any mark. we suspect this is just for aesthetic reasons (for many people the eliptical wing defines the spitfire.)
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The flying razorbacked Mk XIV has clipped wings in some shots and full wings in others. I have never seen a restored Spit with extended wingtips.
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The flying razorbacked Mk XIV has clipped wings in some shots and full wings in others. I have never seen a restored Spit with extended wingtips.
I 'believe' all the wartime clipped XIV's were FR XIV's, they had to be clipped, something to do with wing roots wrinkling!!!!
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Almost missed it.
Two clipped 8s from the MTO, one a senior officer's bird. I'd like that one in my garage thanks :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Clipped93.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/clipped8.jpg)
ooohhh thinking MK XVI with extended range.....the whine to be had. :D
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The wing root wrinkling problem was fixed with the addition of the double (but in some cases singe) reinforcement bars or 'ribs' just seen outboard of the landing gear bulges atop each wing, running parallel to the fuselage. This was an occurrence more common in the dive-bombing Spitfires.. like the IX/XVI. Strangely enough, this Mk.II restoration has it:
(http://www.sonsofdamien.co.uk/images/spitfire%20p7350.jpg)
Extra fuel? Hm .. it would stop uneducated P-51 afficionados from saying how much better the slower accelerating, worse climbing Mustang was compared to the Spitfire because of its range.
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire9-fuelsystem-lr.jpg)
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In terms of restored Spits, the tendency is to go with full span wings for the slow speed handling. There are a few clipped birds, but many of the 16s flying that came from the factory with clipped wings now have full span added during their restorations, again for the slow speed handling and safety.
Many Spit restored also have the larger rudder added even though they had the smaller version when first from the factory. Again it's handling and safety.
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The flying razorbacked Mk XIV has clipped wings in some shots and full wings in others. I have never seen a restored Spit with extended wingtips.
The only Spit still surviving with extended wing tips is the Spit VII at the NASM. Of course it's the only surviving Spit VII too, so I guess it figures :)
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Sorry but that is the most assinine argument yet.
By that argument then you shouldn't be able to fly a Spit one sortie, a Pony the next, then a Buff, then maybe jump into a tank, as that didn't happen either.....in real life.
You can also if you like change skins EACH sortie, geez I bet that happened all the time.......in real life.
You are missing the entire point of my argument. Either you have not read or you too shallow to soak up all that has been argued. Let me see if I can spell it out for you ... slowly... ...
My argument is against simply swapping out wing tips on a specific Spitfire model as pilots see fit "between sorties". It didn't happen in WWII. Wing tips were swapped out when unit roles changed or they arrived that way from the factory.
You speak if a whole spectrum of things that didn't happen in WWII (swapping paint jobs, changing planes, etc)... learn to differentiate the difference between gameplay and model specifics. I am not advocating to change the game play so once you fire up the Spit8 when you sign up you cant fly something else until you create a new account. I'm not advocating only to be able to have one paint skin for that entire account either. Those are game play specifics, not plane model specifics. When you hop from one plane to the next or swap out the skin of a plane for another the base model of the plane stays the same.
Hold fast your tongue before you call something "assinine" for as you made it clear 'tis your lack of comprehension and reason skills that have made you a product of your accusation.
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You are missing the entire point of my argument. Either you have not read or you too shallow to soak up all that has been argued. Let me see if I can spell it out for you ... slowly... ...
My argument is against simply swapping out wing tips on a specific Spitfire model as pilots see fit "between sorties". It didn't happen in WWII. Wing tips were swapped out when unit roles changed or they arrived that way from the factory.
You speak if a whole spectrum of things that didn't happen in WWII (swapping paint jobs, changing planes, etc)... learn to differentiate the difference between gameplay and model specifics. I am not advocating to change the game play so once you fire up the Spit8 when you sign up you cant fly something else until you create a new account. I'm not advocating only to be able to have one paint skin for that entire account either. Those are game play specifics, not plane model specifics. When you hop from one plane to the next or swap out the skin of a plane for another the base model of the plane stays the same.
Hold fast your tongue before you call something "assinine" for as you made it clear 'tis your lack of comprehension and reason skills that have made you a product of your accusation.
I'll make it easy - It would be NO different from having 2 SEPERATE Spit V's (or whichever one) in the game, one clipped, one full span. You would just choose from the hanger which 'version' you wanted.
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I'll make it easy - It would be NO different from having 2 SEPERATE Spit V's (or whichever one) in the game, one clipped, one full span. You would just choose from the hanger which 'version' you wanted.
I was trying to say this earlier, but i do not think he understood. He can't get around the thought of ground crews removing wingtips or modifying aircraft between sorties.
Perk option to remove wingtips on those aircraft which had them in service would make sense to me - more variants represented with minimal fuss. But then of course there are all sorts of complexities with different rated engines etc.
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I'll make it easy - It would be NO different from having 2 SEPERATE Spit V's (or whichever one) in the game, one clipped, one full span. You would just choose from the hanger which 'version' you wanted.
Having two entirely seperate models would be the better way to do what is being suggested, that way if you want the Spit V w/ clipped wings for dive bombing then the ord packages would be avilable for that version and not the Spit V with the tips for the air to air... otherwise we'll have hybrids that were not actually used. Swapping wing tips in the hanger is not condusive to keeping the models accurate, imo. No sense in making each Spitfire a hybrid like the Spit16 is... were not most of the Spit16 equiped squadrons assigned an attack role, do we see much of the air to ground Spit16?
Oh and Furball, it isnt that I refuse to accept that the ground crews didnt change the tips, it is the fact that they did not do those changes between eqach and every sortie. Those changes were made... again... when the unit changed roles and not per pilot descretion each and every sortie.
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Oh and Furball, it isnt that I refuse to accept that the ground crews didnt change the tips, it is the fact that they did not do those changes between eqach and every sortie. Those changes were made... again... when the unit changed roles and not per pilot descretion each and every sortie.
I don't understand why that is such an issue with you?
Do you think that ground crews swapped over the cannon on the IL2 each sortie? Or that B-25 crews swapped from glass noses to solid noses after each landing? Or jug crews removed the outer set of 50 cals?
There are many options in game which would represent different aircraft which were in service at the time, the choice of wingtips would just be another one of those options.
As for the loadouts, the Spitfire wings on most of them were universal so could fit any ord which any other could.
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Having two entirely seperate models would be the better way to do what is being suggested, that way if you want the Spit V w/ clipped wings for dive bombing then the ord packages would be avilable for that version and not the Spit V with the tips for the air to air... otherwise we'll have hybrids that were not actually used. Swapping wing tips in the hanger is not condusive to keeping the models accurate, imo. No sense in making each Spitfire a hybrid like the Spit16 is... were not most of the Spit16 equiped squadrons assigned an attack role, do we see much of the air to ground Spit16?
Oh and Furball, it isnt that I refuse to accept that the ground crews didnt change the tips, it is the fact that they did not do those changes between eqach and every sortie. Those changes were made... again... when the unit changed roles and not per pilot descretion each and every sortie.
Loon, you aren't being accurate however. I posted photos of Spits in the same squadron with different tips at the same time. I can certainly post more if need be. Was it an everyday change? No. But it wasn't solely based on a squadron based change. Stan Turner had wingtips put on his Spit 16 because he preferred it. It didn't mean that everyone went that way. The photo of the two Spit 16s in the same squadron markings is a good indicator. They would have come to the squadron with clipped wings as the 16s came off the production line with clipped wings. Yet the trailing 16 has full span wings while the leader does not. That isn't a wing commander's bird flying number 2.
Using the 131 Spit VIIs again. There are photos from the same time frame in July-August 44 showing both extended and normal wingtips on the VIIs with a mix of paint schemes.
You seem determined not to accept the fact that the wing tip change was a two bolt and a metal strip kind of operation and that it could be done quickly. Personally i don't care if we implement that in AH, but seperate that from the historical part, because you are wrong on the history bit.
Seafire IIs on a British Carrier, some with, some without tips, prior to Avalanche.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Seafires.jpg)
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From Bill Olmsted's book "Blue Skies" about his Spit driving with the RCAF. The excerpt is when he was flying Spits with 232 squadron in the MTO. He was a flight commander and the squadron had a mix of Vc and IXs. He was assigned a Vc.
"Having my own aircraft, my "E" job, radical measures to improve it's performance could be taken. I never much cared for our machine guns, feeling they were a very ineffective weapon. Out they came, leaving only the cannons. I removed all of the armor plating, leaving only the light metal bucket seat to protect my backside and seat. I took off the rear view mirror. I junked the IFF box, a thirty pound device located in the tail which emitted a constant special signal that allowed friendly radar to recognize instantly that the machine was friendly. I removed it since the thought of being mistaken for an enemy was not particularly frightening. I pulled the exhaust stacks and installed Spit IX exhaust stubs, six per side instead of three to improve the engine's performance. Finally with the enthusiastic help of my ground crew, i scraped and polished the whole airplane to nearly bare metal.
The first time I test flew my modified aircraft, the damn thing shot upward like and elevator or helicoptor after just reaching flying speed. It was so light and unbalanced that it took some time to learn to fly and trim the kite properly. I knew no one else would be interested in flying my E, which had turned into something of a beast. But it was fast and maneauverable, so much so that I felt it was nearly the equal of the IXs below 10,000 feet. It was certainly a tricky bastard to fly properly, but I revelled in it's improved performance."
That's one pilot in a squadron taking the time to adjust his bird to his liking. I've heard similar bits from other Spit pilots myself. It didn't have to be squadron wide, or mission based to tweak your Spit :)
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Talk about pimp my ride.
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hmm you should have kept quiet loon - the case for hangar swappable wingtips seems to be getting stronger... :)
PS the XVI is a very capable attack aircraft, the only reason it isnt used this way more is because swapping the slipper for some iron gives it dreadful range, hence my request for the 2x250lb option for VIIIs
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Sqn ldr Anthony Bartley 111 sqn RAF in the MTO (Tunisia) removed the outboard .303's on his Spit V in order to impove performance. He left 2 guns, since in all that dust and mud, jamming was common. It served him once, when the cannons jammed, where he peppered a Stuka to death with just 2 303's.
The removal took place in the field.
Another one, the New Zealander Mackie "Rosie" (family name escapes me) fixed better stubs on his engine. I memory serves me he once had to ditch and was picked up by friendlies, then already carrying the stubs ;)
There was an issue with spinners as well.
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Having two entirely seperate models would be the better way to do what is being suggested, that way if you want the Spit V w/ clipped wings for dive bombing then the ord packages would be avilable for that version and not the Spit V with the tips for the air to air... otherwise we'll have hybrids that were not actually used. Swapping wing tips in the hanger is not condusive to keeping the models accurate, imo. No sense in making each Spitfire a hybrid like the Spit16 is... were not most of the Spit16 equiped squadrons assigned an attack role, do we see much of the air to ground Spit16?
Oh and Furball, it isnt that I refuse to accept that the ground crews didnt change the tips, it is the fact that they did not do those changes between eqach and every sortie. Those changes were made... again... when the unit changed roles and not per pilot descretion each and every sortie.
You seem to be confused -
Wing tip fitted was irrespective of the wing type itself ("a", "b", "c", "d", "e").
Just because some had full span tips didn't mean they couldn't or didn't carry ord, that was a capability of the wing type, not the tip.
XVI - Is not a hybrid, it could and did carry ord, it was a capability of the 'e' wing, not the tip fitted.
No matter what tip is fitted, the wing type remains the same!
So if you could clip a Mk Ia, (never seen it, for an e.g. only) you wouldn't suddenly be able to carry ord, the Spit Ia's type 'a' wing couldn't carry ord, clipped or not.
Conversely fitting full span tips to a IX with 'c' type wing wouldn't stop it carrying ord.
On a lighter note - Think how much fun our old Vc would have been....CLIPPED!!!!
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Seafire IIs on a British Carrier, some with, some without tips, prior to Avalanche.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Seafires.jpg)
Dan -
Looks like a mixture of IIc's (maybe just 2) and LIIc's?
Shows by Sept 43 there were very few IIc's left, most having been re-engined with the Merlin 32.
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Regarding the "hybrid' comment, I should have clarified a bit better...
There are many planes in AH2 that are not used as they were in WWII. The Spit16 w/ clipped wings (the one we have) was used as an attack plane in WWII, yes? In AH2... just how often do we see it in that role? Another prime example is the Fw190A-8, in WWII it was used to hunt bombers abd although a few of us actually use it for that... what is the A-8 used for mostly? Attacking ords, etc at a base. Thw Fw190F-8 was far more suited to attack ground targets but the ease of use for those dual 30mm vs rockets and ord make the A-8 bomber hunter a prime ground attack plane in AH2.
"Hybrids" as I mentioned are an offshoot of the original mission or role a plane was designed to do (in WWII). Yeah yeah, I know that the MA isnt about recreating WWII but to offer up the Spit16 as a premier dogfighter is kinda like making the AKM a premier sniper rifle... hypocritical to the origins, imo.
Removing guns is something the ground crews did all the time. Those guns had parts replaced on them are regular intervals. Likewise, I'm sure there were mechanics that tweaked engines at the pilots request (or by the pilots themselves), but likewise this wasnt something that was standardized nor probably accepted by high command (or makers of the aircraft, either). I probably would have removed the outer 2 of teh .30 cals too knowing how piss poor they performed in the air at the speeds being flown. Why the Brits hung on so long to those .30 cals is a mystery to me. They should have swapped to the .50 cals much sooner.
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:huh
I don't understand how this has to do with why you are against the Spit having optional clipped wings. It was used as a ground attack aircraft because the Luftwaffe was a no show most of the time where the 2nd TAF squadrons were operating. It is not, the same as you make out, as having the Stuka dive bomber as the top fighter in Aces High. I don't know of one mark of Spitfire designed especially for the ground attack role as you make out. The 16 was the same as the LF.IX - does that make the Spitfire IX a ground attack aircraft and not a fighter?
The Spitfire's clipped wings was a direct response to the FW-190 and done for the air to air role.
The FW-190F-8 does not have 30mm, nor do i regularly see the A-8 being used in the ground attack role.
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Regarding the "hybrid' comment, I should have clarified a bit better...
There are many planes in AH2 that are not used as they were in WWII. The Spit16 w/ clipped wings (the one we have) was used as an attack plane in WWII, yes? In AH2... just how often do we see it in that role? Another prime example is the Fw190A-8, in WWII it was used to hunt bombers abd although a few of us actually use it for that... what is the A-8 used for mostly? Attacking ords, etc at a base. Thw Fw190F-8 was far more suited to attack ground targets but the ease of use for those dual 30mm vs rockets and ord make the A-8 bomber hunter a prime ground attack plane in AH2.
"Hybrids" as I mentioned are an offshoot of the original mission or role a plane was designed to do (in WWII). Yeah yeah, I know that the MA isnt about recreating WWII but to offer up the Spit16 as a premier dogfighter is kinda like making the AKM a premier sniper rifle... hypocritical to the origins, imo.
Spit XVI an attack plane - More accurately a fighter that could carry ord when required.
The reason for clipping wings was to increase the Spits roll rate for dogfighting.
Spits could carry ord from 1942 onwards with the introduction of the 'c' type wing which had been given hardpoints. I wouldn't say any of them suddenly became attack only aircraft, or predominantly attack aircraft.
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While researching the Spitfire XII back in the 1980s I got to know a number of former Spit drivers. The classic Spitfire attack story came from "Jumbo" Birbeck, who after flying XIIs ended up on XVI's towards the end of the war. He said there were so few targets left, and nothing to shoot at in the air, that they had his squadron dive bombing Sub pens with 16s. He was shot down while on one of these missions that he described as completely useless and just something that was done to keep the squadron's busy. He saw little point in bouncing 500 pounders off sub pens.
He was still bitter about it.
As for Spitfires in the attack role over all. it really got going in the Spring of 44 with 2 TAF. 602 and 453 RAAF were the first to really put it into practice, but all kinds of Spit squadrons were lugging bombs in support of the ground war. It really was their job for most of 44 and 45. The Pole's did a lot of ground attack. All kinds of photos of their birds lugging three bombs. They did it with full span wing Spit IXs before transitioning to clipped 16s.
Again keep in mind the birds we have in AH
Our Spit IX is an FIX, really a late 42-43 bird prior to them lugging bombs. The VIII is an LFVIII but they didn't lug bombs on VIIIs much as the Vcs were better known as Bombfires. The XVI we have is an LF bird and was fitted with the E wing and the three hard points. Our Spit V is an early Vb that wasn't a bomb carrier. This was the later Vb and Vcs that went to the MTO. In terms of what we have, the ord loadouts are correct.
In a perfect world, I suppose we'd get a Spitfire Vc Trop with the advantages and disadvantages it had. We'd get a 1944 LF IX with a Universal wing and hardpoints so you'd have a small tail, 2 20mm 4 303, 3 hardpoint IX, and maybe we'd get a clipped and cropped Vb optimized for low alt.
But in the end we can do all the 'missions' with the Spits we have, and putting the energy into other birds would make more sense to me, even though I'd love the XII because of all the time I've spent researching it and corresponding with XII pilots.
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PS the XVI is a very capable attack aircraft, the only reason it isnt used this way more is because swapping the slipper for some iron gives it dreadful range, hence my request for the 2x250lb option for VIIIs
I would prefer Mk.VIII's with wing hard-points as well... no longer would I need to fly a Mustang or Lightning just for jabo work and have the other Canadians laugh at my apparent lack of Canuck spirit.
there are photos of RAAF birds with 250 lb racks, though the thing is, I think those were added on. I don't know if the Mk.VIII was factory-built with them. If we ever see the perk ordnance system in place, perhaps they will be available.
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Why would you perk a Spit VIII with an ordnance capability?
Dan, what's so special about the Spit VII compared to what we have in game?
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Why would you perk a Spit VIII with an ordnance capability?
Dan, what's so special about the Spit VII compared to what we have in game?
VII or XII?
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I would prefer Mk.VIII's with wing hard-points as well... no longer would I need to fly a Mustang or Lightning just for jabo work and have the other Canadians laugh at my apparent lack of Canuck spirit.
Mosquito Mk VI. Good jabo and capable of being a fighter. And Canadian.
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VII or XII?
Good catch--sorry.
Spit XII?
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Canadian Mossies fighter-bombers were the Mk 21 and Mk 26.
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Good catch--sorry.
Spit XII?
Read here http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-XII.html
Warning the linked content may turn you into a Mk. XII dweeb...read at your own risk. :D
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Dan, what's so special about the Spit XII compared to what we have in game?
In all honesty Stoney, these guys in the photo below are why the XII is special. It's the Tangmere Spit XII Wing, October 30 1943 not long after their best day when they got 9 109s and 190s for no losses. Postwar research showed no over claims on it either. The first time I ventured beyond just reading about WW2 aviation it was to research these guys. I got to correspond with many of them and meet many as well. I had fallen in love with the Spit when I had a chance to visit Duxford in 1980 when I did a semester of college in England. The first Spit I saw up close was a clipped Spitfire Vc AR501. I decided I was going to be a Spit expert, and then decided to narrow it down to one type. i went with the XII because it looks good, was good and I like clipped wing Spits. Only 100 built, to counter the low level 190 raiders of the late spring and early summer of 43. Only two squadrons, 41 and 91 had them so it made my research area well defined. I could tell you stories about the guys in the photo and go on for days. My prize posession is the logbook of one of the guys in the photo, given to me by his widow. He flew with both 41 and 91 on XIIs. It's autographed by a bunch of Spit XII pilots as I took it back to England for a 41 squadron reunion in 1985 and got them to sign it.
So I'd like it in the game so I can imagine what it might have been like to fly with the guys in the photo. And it's essentially a 1943 version of what the LFIXe and LFXVI were in 1945. A rocket down low, good climb, and able to compete well with the 190s and 109s. I wouldn't push for it, because we have Spits who can do the job, but it's one I'd like for history reasons :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Tangmere-Wing.jpg)
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I do recall reading a pilot's account of allowing 190s bounce their XII's because they were so confident of their spitfires superiority.
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Canadian Mossies fighter-bombers were the Mk 21 and Mk 26.
Mk 26 is just a name for Canadian built Mk VIs. They were the same as the Mk VI in all practical ways.
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In all honesty Stoney, these guys in the photo below are why the XII is special.
Well, we're probably all guilty of nostalgia, otherwise we wouldn't play the game :)
Just curious as to the technical differences as I had never heard much about this version of the Spit.
Thanks :aok
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Well, we're probably all guilty of nostalgia, otherwise we wouldn't play the game :)
Just curious as to the technical differences as I had never heard much about this version of the Spit.
Thanks :aok
Level Speed Performance
In M.S. supercharger gear 372 m.p.h. at 5,700 ft.
Drooooool
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And it had a better view over the nose for dive bombing then Merlin Spits :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/MB878.jpg)
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I do recall reading a pilot's account of allowing 190s bounce their XII's because they were so confident of their spitfires superiority.
That was the tactic. Troll beneath the 109s and 190s, wait for the bounce, break into them and clobber em.
The 109s and 190s learned not to come down after a few bouts.
I'd be lying if I said that isn't the reason I prefer low to high flying too btw. it's been stuck in my head for years since I first read it in Wing Leader by Johnnie Johnson. He was referring to Ray Harries, the Tangmere Wing Commander and his tactics. He's the little guy, dead center of the Tangmere Wing Photo I posted.
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very cool photos Corky :aok
have to check out that book you mentioned sometime. I love the stories of the RAF guys, finshed reading Tempest and Typhoon aces, but haven't gotten into the spit stories much.
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Level Speed Performance
In M.S. supercharger gear 372 m.p.h. at 5,700 ft.
Drooooool
And Mosquito VI was supposed to be able to out-run it according to comparison tests. Not so in AH.
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Guppy,
Who is the second man from the left? Looks like a free french pilot and somehow his face reminds me on something...
edit: I mean in the Tangmere group picture.
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Who is the second man from the left? Looks like a free french pilot and somehow his face reminds me on something...
Hi Harri, maybe Jean Maridor?
Edit- hmm, possibly Jaco Andrieux if not Maridor.
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Jacko Andrieux is the guy second from left. Jean Maridor is standing behind the German Shepard with his hands in front showing. Johnnie Round on his left and Easby on his right all of 91 Squadron. The Shepard is Ray Harries dog. Joe Birbeck of 41 is on Jacko's right. Birbeck lied about his age and got in a 16. Herb Wagner is on Jacko's left. Wag was an American flying with 41 Squadron.
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Thanks Mike and Dan. I was thinking Jean Maridor; there is a site dedicated for him and there is also something on Jacques Andrieux.
http://www.jean-maridor.org/
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I do recall reading a pilot's account of allowing 190s bounce their XII's because they were so confident of their spitfires superiority.
That was Harris. I have that in a book somewhere...I`ll dig it up for you ;)
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That was Harris. I have that in a book somewhere...I`ll dig it up for you ;)
<Smacks Angus for not reading the replies> Wing Leader, Johnnie Johnson :)
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Thanks Mike and Dan. I was thinking Jean Maridor; there is a site dedicated for him and there is also something on Jacques Andrieux.
http://www.jean-maridor.org/
There are a lot of great Maridor stories going back to his early days with 91 Squadron. He was apparently a great practical joker that had the guys on edge all the time waiting for his next prank. The story of his death was that he was out of ammo chasing a Diver (V-1) and it was headed for a Hospital. He deliberately rammed the V-1 destroying it, and himself. He died 8 days before he was supposed to be married.
Andrieux finished up as a French Air Force General and wrote a couple of books about his experiences. I had a chance to correspond with him briefly back in the mid 80s. I have a bunch of photos of his DFC ceremony I got from another 91 pilot. Both had kills in the Spit XII
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I've seen pilots carry 500 pounders in the Spit XII's before... were the XII's fresh out the factory with the option to mount wing hardpoints with no modification? How about the Mk.VIII? I've seen VIII's with such wing racks too, but never checked if they had those wing racks as an actual, out-of-factory option.
Karnak,
The only reason I'm not flying the Mosquito is because I wish for it to be fully updated first. I feel uncomfortable in non-updated planes.
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I've seen pilots carry 500 pounders in the Spit XII's before... were the XII's fresh out the factory with the option to mount wing hardpoints with no modification? How about the Mk.VIII? I've seen VIII's with such wing racks too, but never checked if they had those wing racks as an actual, out-of-factory option.
Karnak,
The only reason I'm not flying the Mosquito is because I wish for it to be fully updated first. I feel uncomfortable in non-updated planes.
The only photos out there of Spit XIIs are all MB878 during the trials with bombs. They never carried them operationally. 91 squadron flew practice dive bombing sorties on two different occasions. They lost one Spit when the wings buckled pulling out when the bomb didn't come off. This was a problem with the Spit IXs with the universal wings too. The E Wing was strengthened because of this problem.
I don't believe the Spit VIII came from the factory with bomb racks. The production run never saw the E wing added and I imagine was finished before the E wing started showing up on the IXe, XIVe and XVIe so any wing racks would have been field mods.
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I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do have a question about the clipped wing changing the flight model.
Doesn't the flight model change on aircraft in the sim already as in the case of the BF-109G-6 when you take the R6 version with the wing gondolas?
Just asking...
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Dan,
in the image you posted of the Mk V wing tip it shows 4 lugs for the screws to attach the tip but the text from the manual says only 2 screws per tip. Did they mean 2 screws per side (as in top and bottom)? thanks
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Thanks for the interesting link Harri. I wish there was more published information about the Free French Spitfire units and their pilots. I have the Mouchotte Diaries which was an interesting read. I’m not a big fan of Clostermann, but he wrote some good, if somewhat fanciful at times, stories. I’ve also obtained copies of Combat Reports and Operations Record Books for 340, 341, 326 and 327 Squadrons but I wish someone would write a book on this subject and give it some life. Anyone have any tips on good bio’s or units histories for the Free French units?
Thanks for the additional info Dan.
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That was Harris. I have that in a book somewhere...I`ll dig it up for you ;)
Sorry, didn+t see that. Anyway, I was betting on Johnnie or Duncan Smith.
Have Wing leader, nice read.
BTW Johnny mentions "beer" runs to Normandy in that book. 65th sqn did that as well, but not by strapping kegs to a Spitfire, but by using specialized (coated on the inside) droptanks on a Mustang. Result: much more beer. One tank dark ale, one tank light ale ;)
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Thanks for the interesting link Harri. I wish there was more published information about the Free French Spitfire units and their pilots. I have the Mouchotte Diaries which was an interesting read. I’m not a big fan of Clostermann, but he wrote some good, if somewhat fanciful at times, stories. I’ve also obtained copies of Combat Reports and Operations Record Books for 340, 341, 326 and 327 Squadrons but I wish someone would write a book on this subject and give it some life. Anyone have any tips on good bio’s or units histories for the Free French units?
Thanks for the additional info Dan.
When I was hunting the XII stuff, Andreieux was kind enough to send me a copy of his book. Trouble was I don't read French! :) Agreed on the Mouchotte Diaries. I have a little paperback that's also in French that is a small photo history of the French Spits. "Les Spitfire Francais" by Claude Pierquet. Nice photos, but again, the captions give me trouble :)
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Hi Dan, great tips on the books – thanks! Which book did Andrieux send you? I found two titles by Jacques Andrieux; LE CIEL ET L'ENFER, FRANCE LIBRE 1940-1945 and Une poignee d'as. I’m wondering if they may be the same book, the latter a reprint of the former under different title? I just ordered Le ciel et l'enfer. It appears to be a diary of sorts, not unlike Mouchotte’s book. Une poignee d'as appears to be hard to come by.
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So the diaries of Rene Mouchotte are available?
No wonder of his form, he died in WW2. Clostermann flew with him if I recall correctly.
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Hi Angus. There are plenty of them at ABE Books (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=the+Mouchotte+Diaries&x=66&y=12), inexpensive too. I know that both Mouchotte and Clostermann were with 341 (Free French) Squadron at Biggin Hill flying Spitfire IXs during the summer of 1943.
Here’s a couple of their combat reports that might be of interest:
R. Mouchotte, 17 May 43 (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/341-mouchotte-17may43.jpg)
P. Clostermann, 27 July 43 (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/341-closterman-27july43.jpg)
I just noticed in the appendices of Mouchotte’s book another book mentioned along the same lines that may be of interest - La vieille équipe by Bernard Dupérier (looks good, I’ll have to get that one).
Another somewhat related book, i.e. Spitfire LF IX (Merlin 66) equipped units flying out of Biggin Hill during the summer of 1943, is Johnny Checketts’ book. He was with 485 (New Zealand) Squadron which flew with 341 Squadron as the Biggin Hill wing. Here’s one of Checketts’ Combat Reports J. Checketts, 9 August 43 (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/485-checketts-9aug43.jpg) that may be of interest.
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Holy Moly!!!
Thanks :aok
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Not Free French but 91 Squadron related; there is one old book available online:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/m/mdp/pt?view=image;size=75;id=mdp.39015012926575;page=root;seq=1
Art Donahue was an American volunteer in Bob and this book, "Tally-ho! Yankee in a Spitfire", was written and published after Bob. Later he served in the 91 Suadron (MIA late 1942).
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Hi Dan, great tips on the books – thanks! Which book did Andrieux send you? I found two titles by Jacques Andrieux; LE CIEL ET L'ENFER, FRANCE LIBRE 1940-1945 and Une poignee d'as. I’m wondering if they may be the same book, the latter a reprint of the former under different title? I just ordered Le ciel et l'enfer. It appears to be a diary of sorts, not unlike Mouchotte’s book. Une poignee d'as appears to be hard to come by.
LE CIEL ET L'ENFER, FRANCE LIBRE 1940-1945 is the one he sent me.
And I agree abebooks.com is our friend :)
Gripen, Art Donahue was from a town in southern Minnesota a couple hours south of me. He wrote two books, the one you mentioned and one called "Last Flight From Singapore" about his time flying Hurricanes during the fall of that city. He was killed over the Channel in a Spit V after an encounter with a Ju88 that he shot down. His engine was damaged and he was never found.
I learned of Donahue from a New Zealand Spit driver from 91 squadron who flew wing with him often in Spit Vs.
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Dan,
does the manual say anything about redoing the rigging and balance on the ailerons after changing the tips?
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Last flight from Singapore!!!!
Is this book available? I have looked but found very little of the air ops at the fall of Singapore. The only thing that comes to mind is from a novel, which mentions the last Hurricanes flying to Palembang. Any foot in that?
I'd buy that book BTW...
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Last flight from Singapore!!!!
Is this book available? I have looked but found very little of the air ops at the fall of Singapore. The only thing that comes to mind is from a novel, which mentions the last Hurricanes flying to Palembang. Any foot in that?
I'd buy that book BTW...
Christopher Shores "A Bloody Shambles" covers that part of the air war.
31 copies of "Last Flight From Singapore" on abebooks.com $1.53 for the cheapest :)
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Donahue&sts=t&tn=Last+Flight+From+Singapore&x=79&y=11
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Dan,
does the manual say anything about redoing the rigging and balance on the ailerons after changing the tips?
That was done at the factory with a special tool that bent the aileron as there was no aileron trim. Nothing about adjusting it after tips were changed.
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That was done at the factory with a special tool that bent the aileron as there was no aileron trim. Nothing about adjusting it after tips were changed.
Thanks Dan. It appears Crumpp is spouting hot air then.
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Thanks Dan. It appears Crumpp is spouting hot air then.
Not even worth the effort in that regard Milo :)
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here is the best use yet for spitfire wing tips [im http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?g][/img]
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This link is of no use....
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This link is of no use....
he is missing the ']' Angus.
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Blake7 intended to post:
here is the best use yet for spitfire wing tips (http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?)
EDIT:
But even fixed it does not link to an image.
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"It appears Crumpp is spouting hot air then."
So what did he say and where?
-C+
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You have a PM Charge.
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Give us the Spit XII...or I will make Guppy quit. ;)
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Thx, Milo.
"That was done at the factory with a special tool that bent the aileron as there was no aileron trim."
So that refers just that if there is misalignment between the end and tip of aileron it is adjusted by simply holding the other end still and bending the other end with the said tool adjusting the incidence.
It is possible that after the wing tips were removed the behaviour of the aileron tip changed but I'm not at all sure if any amount of adjusting would have overcome the associated problems that could only be solved by different aileron tip design as changing it to e.g. "Frise" type.
I think that the removal of the wing tip simply did what it was supposed to i.e. boost the effectiveness of the ailerons, and surely the effect would have been better with different tip design and different hinges, alignment and adjustment, but they probably saw that the wing tip change was enough in those circumstances and it DID boost aileron effectiveness. Of course it didn't make Spit as good roller as FW but it was closing the gap and AFAIK Brits were satisfied with it.
The FW was sensitive of the adjustment of the ailerons but the dependency of these two aircraft of their wing-area vs. aileron area is very different and the bad behaviour of the FW with badly adjusted ailerons could even be associated with Frise design.
What I'm saying is that Spit wingtip and aileron design were not optimized for wingtip removal but even without further modifications it yielded improvement in rolling performance, as is logical, and Brits were quite happy with it. Crumpp probably refers that such operation would cause equal problems in Spit that FW had if it had even slightly misaligned ailerons but I don't think that would be the case. FW's aileron and wing tip design were optimal for very good rolling performance but it is possible that such advantage comes with a price, as well as such performance cannot be simply reached by simply cutting the wing tip off of any plane. But bringing the aileron to wingtip would help any plane to improve rolling performance, more of less.
-C+
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Just a thought, but by removing the Spit tip the edge of the aileron is much closer to the washout, so possibly thereby more efective.
Just read about this on the UBI thread. Lots of rubbish there IMHO. Things like this drastically affecting C.o.G. etc, while just about anything (ordnance, ammo, fuel burn etc) would do so much more.
Longitudional issues would do the lot, which was the case with the Spit V, which was a bit to delicate, and had to have it's controls weighted (vertical) so that the aircraft wouldn't get into a 12G turn.....
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Quoting Charlie Brown, a high time current Spit driver who has flown the V, IX, XIV, XVI and XVIII extensively in both full and clipped wing configuration.
"Clipped wing tips have the following effects:
-Cruise speed increases by approximately 15 mph
-Roll rate is markedly increased
-Slight increase in stall speed (3-5 mph)
-Noticable increase in drag during manouvre-eliptical wing tips really do minimize drag during manouvre
-The aircraft is easier to land because in the three point attitude the aircraft has stopped flying very shortly after touchdown. Eliptical wings require the aircraft to be 'flown' on the ground for a considerable period after touchdown and where any bumps will make the aircraft bounce around like a spring lamb."
Quoting Alex Henshaw regarding the ailerons and the bending of them to adjust.
"After a thorough pre-flight check I would take off and once at circuit height I would trim the aircraft and try to get her to fly straight and level with hands off the stick. The Mark V lacked aileron trim tabs and most of the new ones had a tendency to fly one wing low. When that happened I would land immediately and taxi to one corner of the airfield where a mechanic was waiting. He carried a special tool rather like a tuning fork, on my instructions he would bend the trailing edge of the aileron on his sde once, twice or thrice, up or down. Then he would go around to the other side and similarly bend the opposite aileron in the other direction. That done, I would take off again and trim the aircraft to fly hands off, to see whether the wing dropping had been cleared. Usually it had, but if it had not the process was repeated until trim was acceptable. Sometimes if bending was not sufficiant, it was neccesary to change the ailerons. It was a Heath Robinson system, but it did work."
Hard to argue with Alex Henshaw when it comes to Spitfire flying
Gotta love those clipped wings...oh..and of course the Spit XII. Prototype Spit XII DP845 in October 43. She had tips on and off many times during her testing days in 42-43.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/DP845Bank.jpg)
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I have a picture I took of Charlie, while walking from his Spit. PM me your email and I'll send it to you Guppy ;)
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Beautifull pic.
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Not even worth the effort in that regard Milo :)
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2601049607/p/4
More hot air from Crumpp. He uses the P-51 as an example for what has to be done when changing wing tips. Naturally there has to be some re-rigging as the tip has a hinge point for the aileron. :eek: Then he posts the pages for changing the aileron to support his stance :rolleyes: which has to be done before changing the wing tip.
Instruction for removal: Prior to removing the wing tip, it is necessary to remove aileron.
The aileron on the Spit is not touched when changing wing tips on the Spit.
Where he gets the 8 screws from is anybodys guess, as it clearly states 38 screws. Maybe from the '7S6-1032-8 screw'.
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It's all about how the wingtip was designed. On my plane, the wingtips come off and go back on in minutes. Its merely an exercise in how fast you can unscrew a bunch of countersunk screws.
If the P-51 had an aileron control mechanism imbedded in the wing tip, then obviously it wasn't as easy a procedure. If the Spit merely had wingtips held on by screws, then it would take a matter of minutes to take them off and put them on.
Sounds like Crump thinks that owning a maintenance manual makes him an expert. Did anyone ever talk to Bodhi? He works on warbirds for a living.
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http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2601049607/p/4
More hot air from Crumpp. He uses the P-51 as an example for what has to be done when changing wing tips. Naturally there has to be some re-rigging as the tip has a hinge point for the aileron. :eek: Then he posts the pages for changing the aileron to support his stance :rolleyes: which has to be done before changing the wing tip.
Instruction for removal: Prior to removing the wing tip, it is necessary to remove aileron.
The aileron on the Spit is not touched when changing wing tips on the Spit.
Where he gets the 8 screws from is anybodys guess, as it clearly states 38 screws. Maybe from the '7S6-1032-8 screw'.
Milo, I appreciate your persistance but you aren't going to ever get those guys to see the light :)
I did post the quote from the Spit V Manual regarding the wingtips already. It is what it is. Nothing to do with the aileron.
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Whoa, wait a minute, changing the wingtips in the game hangar would require a new skin due to the different nav light lenses... ;)
Dan, when they give us the XII I'll give it a 'Nigeria' skin :D
Gorgeous pic above, great example of Merlin oil drool to aspire to vis a vis weathering.
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Whoa, wait a minute, changing the wingtips in the game hangar would require a new skin due to the different nav light lenses... ;)
Dan, when they give us the XII I'll give it a 'Nigeria' skin :D
Gorgeous pic above, great example of Merlin oil drool to aspire to vis a vis weathering.
If you look at any photos of the XII there are no wing tip nav lights :)
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In with the Mk XII!!!!!