Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Clone155 on December 13, 2008, 02:12:29 PM
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We all know the Pony is a great plane, but what makes it so great? It has great guns, and great speed, but what happens when you get some one on your tail that can match your speed? Do you call for help? Do you run the the field ack? Or do you actually try and out manuver them? It seems every time I try, it doesn't work very well. Any tips?
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From last night's FSO:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jfw1onwm1hn
We were bloated with fuel and had the parasitic drop tank racks, so you had ample opportunity to escape. As soon as I broke off the first chase you can tell that I anticipated your reversing back. It would have been better to keep on going and not push your luck.
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We all know the Pony is a great plane....
No, we do NOT all know that.
In the ETO, it was a long-ranged mediocre maneuvering airplane that could perform with its typical opposition at typical altitudes and in any case run down or out-run 99% of what it ran across.
In AHII MA, it is a very poor turning aircraft that is outperformed by much of it's opposition at typical altitudes and can be out-turned, out-climbed, and out-run by a good number of likely opponents.
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In RL you didn't have pony vs spit, pony, hurri, etc. In the game you do. This means the way you use the plane needs to be changed from historic to whatever gets you the kill and let's you get away with it. Pony is a great plane here in this game. Just not that suited at taking on every other type of foe it comes across. Wish more players went to ava to have a more realistic fight but most enjoy the game as a game not a sim. This is why my pony is back in the hanger and I'm starting to relearn the spitfire. Tired of getting ran down when outnumbered and out turned by the la crowd. Will be making people angry as soon as I figure out the right one to use.
all!
>
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To quote/paraphrase an American fighter pilot who flew Spitfires in the USAAF before switching to P-51s.
"The P-51 can't do what the Spitfire can do, but it can do it over Berlin."
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The P-51 can turn VERY well when flown properly at the altitude and speed it was designed for. It can out turn anything it cant out run given a realistic matchup (Allied vs Axis). The 109-K4 might be the true exeption to this tho. Its fully capable of turning with the 51 and has a speed advantage over it at most alts. With altitude the P-51 can simply nose over and enter a high speed dive to get away for a short time however. The 190 D-9 cant out turn the P-51 but will out roll it handly. Pop some flaps out and you can turn with Spitfires if you practice a little. Its like any other plane....takes practice to make it work.
Steel
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It won't climb with or accelerate with Spitfires though, and WWII pilots did not use flaps nearly as aggressively as we do in AH. None WWII era of the WWII era tests I've seen put the P-51D as matching even the Spitfire Mk XIV in turning.
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It won't climb with or accelerate with Spitfires though, and WWII pilots did not use flaps nearly as aggressively as we do in AH. None WWII era of the WWII era tests I've seen put the P-51D as matching even the Spitfire Mk XIV in turning.
Correct.
They do put it matching or exceeding the Tempest and Typhoon though, which the AHII P-51D does not.
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All I know is that a well flown P51D vs my Fw190D9 in a 1 on 1 fight is one of the best experiences I can get in this simulator. Have had the luck to find a couple of such fights last week, and enjoyed them immensely (one was a draw as I had to dive away because another enemy was getting dangerously close, the other I won with a very very complicated high deflection shot I was lucky to hit with as I'm a terribly lousy shot).
That the P51D is a very good matchup for the D9 is a big hint of how good the Pony is in the MA. As for how to defend against a faster plane on your six, it just requires a skilled pilot who knows how to get the best out from it.
Usually that means that for starters the pilot doesn't let his SA slip so low as for finding himself in such a situation, BTW. If someone faster than you is stuck like glue on your six, you did something wrong. And the plane has nothing to do with it.
just my 0.02$
The P-51 can turn VERY well when flown properly at the altitude and speed it was designed for. It can out turn anything it cant out run given a realistic matchup (Allied vs Axis). The 109-K4 might be the true exeption to this tho. Its fully capable of turning with the 51 and has a speed advantage over it at most alts.
In a K4 vs a P51D 1-on-1 co-E fight the Pony is as good as dead. Any other result means that either the K4 pilot is clueless or the P51D a real god of Aces High. It's not that the 109 can turn with the pony (in fact it can't on the short run), it's the ability to build E that makes the 109 so superior, and the speed that allows it to deny the P-51 the chance to run away it's good just to make that advantage count.
As the fight draws longer ,the bigger the advantage the 109 wins over the Pony. Any maneouver the 51 pulls means burning an energy he can't easily rebuild, while the K4's acceleration can turn a fight's energy tables in a heartbeat. If the fight is fought in the vertical (and any decent K4 would drag such a fight to the vertical plane) the 51 has only one option: dive away hoping for the 109 compressing for enough time for some friends to clear his six...
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P51 would be able to crazy-dive away from the K though...I think.
It will also roll better at high speeds.
And a slow turn with some flaps, pony wins....
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I have a real hard time with 109's in AH, particularly when they are in a higher "E" state or I'm alone.
Another reason the Pony's worked so well IRL is the fact that the Americans flew with wingmen. If you get 2 Pony's going that are working together, they can really take on 4 cons if done right. This really goes for almost any American aircraft, and to steal from SOCOM commercials... Alone they can be lethal, as a team they dominate.
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All I know is that a well flown P51D vs my Fw190D9 in a 1 on 1 fight is one of the best experiences I can get in this simulator.
Ditto.
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I have a real hard time with 109's in AH, particularly when they are in a higher "E" state or I'm alone.
Another reason the Pony's worked so well IRL is the fact that the Americans flew with wingmen. If you get 2 Pony's going that are working together, they can really take on 4 cons if done right. This really goes for almost any American aircraft, and to steal from SOCOM commercials... Alone they can be lethal, as a team they dominate.
That would imply that conversely, the Germans always flew as individuals, disdained teamwork? :huh
No, the reason the Pony seems worse than it's reputation in AHII is because it is being asked to fight some of it's historical allies in the weeds, instead of doing high-altitude escort, and because some of it's historical opponent's are rather "optimistically" modeled, and the Pony is modeled rather...bleh.
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The P-51 can turn VERY well when flown properly at the altitude and speed it was designed for.
Steel
This has NOTHING to do with 99.9% of the fights in the MA.
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And a slow turn with some flaps, pony wins....
Nope.
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That would imply that conversely, the Germans always flew as individuals, disdained teamwork? :huh
No, the reason the Pony seems worse than it's reputation in AHII is because it is being asked to fight some of it's historical allies in the weeds, instead of doing high-altitude escort, and because some of it's historical opponent's are rather "optimistically" modeled, and the Pony is modeled rather...bleh.
No, not what I'm saying. If the Pony's keep their speed up, the speed of the pony allows constant BnZ with 2 aircraft. With correct tactics, you can really keep multiple opponents below you with relative ease. If they try to climb up to you, which 109's and Spits feel they can do because of the gobs of power, your teammate can easily swing in and hit him while he's in his slow climb. Now, of course, you can do this in 109's, but the fact that the dive speed is somewhat limited tends to put a damper on it from my experience, at least in AH. 190's give me no worries in AH when in the P-51, and their verticle performance is no where near as good as the 109's.
I'm sure everyone has different experiences, of course, but I find it very hard to deal with a couple Ponies with an "E" advantage working as a team no matter what aircraft I'm in.
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No, not what I'm saying. If the Pony's keep their speed up, the speed of the pony allows constant BnZ with 2 aircraft.
More like the zoom/climb and E-retention allow constant bnz, but yeah, true. Of course, this is also true of a pair of F4Us, a pair of Jugs, a pair of 190s, etc.
Now, of course, you can do this in 109's, but the fact that the dive speed is somewhat limited tends to put a damper on it from my experience, at least in AH.
What's the problem here? Our AHII 109s don't get stiff controls until you pass 400mph IAS. 400mph IAS is way fast, especially at a little higher altitude. (Galland would have given his right nut for 109s that handle like the ones in AHII IMO. :devil) Bnz was a fairly standard tactic for the Germans from the Spanish Civil war onward.
190's give me no worries in AH when in the P-51, and their verticle performance is no where near as good as the 109's.
The 190D has an initial climb rate of over 4,000fpm and remains a front-runner in climb rate up to 15K. If anything, one would think it's zoom qualities would be superior to a 109s because of greater mass and "density". So yes, it isn't quite the vertical performer the 109G-14 or K is but it outclasses the P-51. The only quality where the P-51 is definitely superior at typical MA alts, and the one that makes the 190 easier to fight, is wing-loading. Of course, this turns out to be important...makes one wonder why the Germans devoted so many resources to 190s when the game demonstrates that the Messerschmidt is obviously far and away superior? :P Oh well.
I'm sure everyone has different experiences, of course, but I find it very hard to deal with a couple anything with all the advantages ganging me no matter what aircraft I'm in.
Fixed! :aok
BTW, do you happen to have much time in the P-47 D-11?
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Fwiw, the VVS always considered the 109 to be superior to the 190. Their opinion of the 190D-9 was harsh, something like "it burns as well as the others."
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and WWII pilots did not use flaps nearly as aggressively as we do in AH.
While sim pilots may not use flaps correctly, I wouldn't go so far as to say WWII pilots didn't use them aggresively. Scroll down for the reports about flap usage: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html
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Yes, pilots used whose airplanes featured specifically designed maneuvering flaps that could be safely deployed at relatively high IAS used them at their *maneuvering* setting. But we end up dumping full flaps in everything all the time in AHII. That is probably because our flaps auto-retract instead of causing damage at high air speed. If we got rid of the auto-retract, things would be different. Of course, then the Corsairs would have ANOTHER advantage. :D
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But we end up dumping full flaps in everything all the time in AHII. That is probably because our flaps auto-retract instead of causing damage at high air speed.
We do? Speak for yourself, those of those that know how to properly use flaps in the planes we fly do it differently. YMMV.
ack-ack
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Here's a 51d flying against a k4 merging co-alt, co-e.
While the 09 can potentially control the fight with it's engine power, the pony is certainly not helpless. Like with any plane match up, it really comes down to acm choices and the pilots control over his weapon. This was definitely a close fight though and makes for entertaining viewing.
http://www.speedyshare.com/794256750.html
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We do? Speak for yourself, those of those that know how to properly use flaps in the planes we fly do it differently. YMMV.
ack-ack
You spend your day cruising this board looking for any excuse to make one of your snide little remarks don't you? Seriously, get a life.
Yeah yeah, we all know that it's rarely a good idea for a Pony or a P-38 to be wallowing with full flaps in midst of an MA melee, etc. and so forth. Thanks for throwing a truism out there.
The fact remains that many planes like Spitfires in which combat flap usage is a dubious r/l proposition will deploy them frequently to their advantage in prolonged fights, at least partially because damage from excess speed is not a worry.
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I'm not quite as good as Bighorn, and I was nearly neck and neck dueling him in a 51D vs his K4. The 51D is definitely not helpless :)
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You spend your day cruising this board looking for any excuse to make one of your snide little remarks don't you? Seriously, get a life.
Stop using blanket statements that aren't accurate.
ack-ack
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Thias,
That K4 made a LOT of mistakes...
A few turns into the fight he had a 5,000 feet alt advantage. Even if the 109K4 cant kill the 51 he should be able to survive. The K4 can outrun, outclimb, and can turn with the 51 rather nicely. The K4 overshot and allowed Scotch back into the fight. I fly the 51 more than 99% of AHers and the 109K4 dominates it. Only a mistake by the K4 or being at a disadvantage can change that.
Steel
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That's the whole point of ACM and why people need to push their plane to the limits.
Duel?
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Whos in what? :D
I suck in German iron.....nothing to do with country of origin either. They just dont fit my style of fighting like the 38, 47, and 51. Given two equal pilots in their respective rides the 109K4 wins. I agree ACM can change the balance but thats not really the point for me. On paper and in the air the K4 dominates nearly every category. Catch me on tomorrow and I will be glad to fly the 51 in a matchup like that.
Steel
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It wasn't like the k4 was slopping it around. He just flew into the 51's fight at that point. (Alt/E being used against him for the overshoot, though that overshoot almost didn't work).
Btw k4 is my main ride. Of course I know all of that. But the point I'm making is that if you fly solely based on paper, you're going to be running timid a lot of the time when you don't need to. If needed I'll make some 51 vs x plane films. And I can show a slough of k4 vs x films too.
I'll dissect that film a little tomorrow and answer the original posters question a little better.
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Steel you should talk to B4buster about a pony vs 109k fight. A few weeks ago when the AvA was having the P-51D vs 109K match up he flew that thing like Iv never seen it flown before. During that week I killed him 28 times and he killed me 10 times. Every time he made me work very hard for the kill and most of the time I didn't make it back to base because he would get an oil or radiator hit. From all my pony vs k4 fight what I can tell you is if you want to beat the K4 keep him from dropping flaps. If you can keep the 109K in a turn fight above 180mph then the pony will win, but once he gets his flaps down the game is over.
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Thias and Larry,
Granted this is why we fly the planes and play with live ammo. With me in the 109K4 I dont really have much trouble handling the 51D. Getting a gun solution on him is one thing but hitting him with that spud launcher is another. The 51D has a very exploitable weakness thats easy to trap them in. I have fought B4Buster before so I know what he is capable of. Turn the fight into the vertical and its over for the mustang.
Steel
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Agent360 and I wanted to test this out so we went to the DA, each taking a few rounds in one plane and then switching. Under those conditions, it really is a difficult fight for the 51 if he doesn't manage to obtain an angle after the merge(or 2nd). He really has to keep the fight quick until he can either gain the position or force an overshoot which he has to be able to follow up on right away. Otherwise the k4 will take over quickly, and in DA conditions, the 51 has no where to go. I beat Agent once while I was in the 51d. That was the only pony victory though there were a few close calls do to snapshots. Agent flies the 51 decently, and he's great in the k4 so I feel it was pretty even pilot wise.
In the MA the pony needs to use alt to keep his speed up and drag the k4 into speed. We just couldn't do that in the DA with the ground so close. I still don't like the idea of telling a pony driver he's screwed and has no chance. He just has to be very quick to pounce on any mistake of the k4. If the pony manages to saddle up on the k4, even if it's a slow fight, he should be able to hang with it. It's just getting to that point which proved most difficult in a dueling environment.
Of course I also took the d-pony into the furball area and was able to go head to head against everything under the sun. But my plane wasn't really being pushed to any limits there. heh
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I think a 2vs2 fight is much more favorable for the P-51D vs the K4 than a 1vs1 fight. Some good pilots should run a match like that sometime and film it. :aok
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More like the zoom/climb and E-retention allow constant bnz, but yeah, true. Of course, this is also true of a pair of F4Us, a pair of Jugs, a pair of 190s, etc.
While true, I don't see this happen often, and I don't have a good reason as to why...
What's the problem here? Our AHII 109s don't get stiff controls until you pass 400mph IAS. 400mph IAS is way fast, especially at a little higher altitude. (Galland would have given his right nut for 109s that handle like the ones in AHII IMO. :devil) Bnz was a fairly standard tactic for the Germans from the Spanish Civil war onward.
I'm not saying it's not possible for 109's to do it, but I find it more difficult since I actually have to make sure to pull out if the con starts diving away. I just tend to see more use of the 109's powerplant than BnZ in-game.
The 190D has an initial climb rate of over 4,000fpm and remains a front-runner in climb rate up to 15K. If anything, one would think it's zoom qualities would be superior to a 109s because of greater mass and "density". So yes, it isn't quite the vertical performer the 109G-14 or K is but it outclasses the P-51. The only quality where the P-51 is definitely superior at typical MA alts, and the one that makes the 190 easier to fight, is wing-loading. Of course, this turns out to be important...makes one wonder why the Germans devoted so many resources to 190s when the game demonstrates that the Messerschmidt is obviously far and away superior? :P Oh well.
Yeah on WEP it's something like 4600fpm, and German WEP lasts days, but I still don't feel all that threatened by 190's in the Pony, even when they are above me. But like I said before, everything I've stated here has been based on in-game experiences I've had.
Fixed! :aok
Well, no, not what I meant. I wasn't saying 2 v 1 per say, but rather a low group of cons with 2 *smart* Pony's above them. However, being ganged is no fun in any plane... :(
BTW, do you happen to have much time in the P-47 D-11?
No, I don't. I have flown it a few times before, fun little fighter, never really kept my attention long though.
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Please don't take this the wrong way some of you pony drivers :) but I will say this much, Anytime I come accross a pony when flying the 109, I always feel more confident about the outcome than when faced with a spit.
I find that when I engage a well flown pony then I'm in for a good fight, eventually the fight slows down or gets low and that is usually deadly for the P51, on the flip side though, a pony or even a pair working together and keeping their speed up is a different story altogether. Seems to be a great plane when the speed is there, but when that goes.......
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Itunes,
That kinda comparing apples to oranges there.
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My post probably didn't say what I really mean't to say (sounds like I'm chatting to the wife with that one :))
Basically- slow pony= dead, pony with speed or working in pairs= much more difficult, in other words, fly it like it was intended and it comes into it's own.
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iTunes,
Ahhhh I see where your coming from. In general I would agree most low/slow 51's are dead meat. I am one to think a slow poni is dangerous in a small way. I cant tell you how many Spits got lazy and paid for it. Perhaps this is because I fly it so much and know what its capable of. Most dont know how to equalize E out and avoid getting underneath the high con.
Steel
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No, I don't. I have flown it a few times before, fun little fighter, never really kept my attention long though.
I asked because every time I fly it, I think, "Whoa, this thing TURNS". Of course it is not up to Spit-Corsair standards, but still, when I imagine the P-47 D-11's turning abilities mated with the P-51's energy properties, I think, "uber".
Frankly I think the D-11 gives us a good idea of what the Pony *should* be able to do in a turnfight. But of course that opinion is the source of much turmoil and controversy. :D
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iTunes,
. Perhaps this is because I fly it so much and know what its capable of. Most dont know how to equalize E out and avoid getting underneath the high con.
Steel
Hmmm. I've never heard of you. You fly in an arena other than late war mostly?
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You spend your day cruising this board looking for any excuse to make one of your snide little remarks don't you? Seriously, get a life.
OT
Yet Ack Ack isn't the one who has been PNGed.... strange ehhh?
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Steve,
We fought in the DA with 51Bvs51D when I was using the handle Race. I have never really spent much time in LW at all. Mostly EW/MW against the horde and alot of DA.
<S>
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Steve,
We fought in the DA with 51Bvs51D when I was using the handle Race. I have never really spent much time in LW at all. Mostly EW/MW against the horde and alot of DA.
<S>
A wise choice sir, I'll be in the AvA for a while as the the MA is descending into "Duke Nukem" at a rapid pace.
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OT
Yet Ack Ack isn't the one who has been PNGed.... strange ehhh?
AA is more cautious than me about who he pisses off...I got png'ed for a sarcastic signature about the no political discussion policy in the O'club. No curse words, no lies, no references to people's ancestors. What I said was ten times tamer than the poison pen stuff I see guys trading on this BBS as a regular procedure.
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I asked because every time I fly it, I think, "Whoa, this thing TURNS". Of course it is not up to Spit-Corsair standards, but still, when I imagine the P-47 D-11's turning abilities mated with the P-51's energy properties, I think, "uber".
Frankly I think the D-11 gives us a good idea of what the Pony *should* be able to do in a turnfight. But of course that opinion is the source of much turmoil and controversy. :D
Ah, I gotcha.
I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
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AA is more cautious than me about who he pisses off
Not at all, if you notice it's only the 'tards that are the target of my barbs.
ack-ack
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I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
In short yes.....but you have to watch the usage of the name Poni. The B model is much better in the turn than the D. It will hang with 109s in many areas of flight with a good pilot. The use of flaps and throttle management make all the difference in the world. Only when the fight degrades into a true luftberry do I get worried. Otherwise I dont think the 109 is more dangerous than many other planes in a turn fight. Its the vertical that gets me worried....
Steel
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I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
What Mustang, what 109(G,K)(standard, Rüstsatz)? Check te old war stories from the other side.
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/karhi/karhinv1.htm
I shot down at least one Mustang (on 4th July 1944) in turning fight. I was hanging behind one, but I could not get enough deflection. Then the pilot made an error: he pulled too much, and stalling, had to loosen his turn. That gave me the chance of getting deflection and shooting him down. It was not impossible to dogfight flying a three-cannon Messerschmitt.
And see that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94
Lots of variables.
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I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
You also have to remember that back then they didn't push the planes like we do. Another thing is we aren't sitting in the plane feeling every movement of the plane. We don't have to endure the 5 1/2Gs we are pulling when fighting like they used to. Lastly we have alot more experience flying are cartoon planes then most of them did flying for their lives.
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Ah, I gotcha.
I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
Well, "out-turning" 109s is actually unimportant per se. War being what it is, one could argue that the Allies did not have access to a broad cross-section of 109s for testing, etc.
However, with P-47 vs. P-51, we have to assume that the opinion of the Allied AND Axis that the latter is the more nimble bird is mistaken...
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And?
Old hare shoots down a Mustang. In this instance, a simple turn fails to solve the problem of something on the six...as we all know in this situation the pursuing plane does not need a great deal of superiority in the turn, in fact it can turn somewhat worse and still get the kill.
And the pilot had to pull too hard and stall his P-51, easy to do because it didn't give much warning of impending stalls, before the 109 weighted down with 3 cannons could pull deflection.
Walter Wolfrum, a Luftwaffe ace with 137 victories, remembered of his encounters with American fighters that "the P-47 wasn't so bad because we could out turn and outclimb it, initially. [...] The P-51 was something else."
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I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
There's a lot of things that account for the difference, in order of importance:
1. Pilot ability. By the time the P-51 arrived, most of the good German pilots were dead, and the new ones had their training time cut short.
2. Combat pilots are known to exaggerate the abilities of the aircraft they fly.
3. Where applicable, gondolas limited the turning performance of the 109.
There's a good video on youtube (of course I can't find it) where a pilot who has flown both the P-51d and a rebuilt 109G compares their performance and says that the 109G turns better, but that the P-51 is faster.
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There's a lot of things that account for the difference, in order of importance:
1. Pilot ability. By the time the P-51 arrived, most of the good German pilots were dead, and the new ones had their training time cut short.
2. Combat pilots are known to exaggerate the abilities of the aircraft they fly.
3. Where applicable, gondolas limited the turning performance of the 109.
There's a good video on youtube (of course I can't find it) where a pilot who has flown both the P-51d and a rebuilt 109G compares their performance and says that the 109G turns better, but that the P-51 is faster.
There is a huge variability in basic weight amongst various models of the 109G...
While I would be surprised if most variants of the 109 could NOT sustain a smaller minimum turning circle than the P-51 at low alts, the 109 having gotten slow enough to bring both slats and flaps into play, I think the in-game differences are greater than was generally the case in reality.
The stiff-controls of the 109 at IAS approaching 300mph is a factor which could have given Mustangs an initial advantage in turning (considering both pitch and roll control) at combat airspeeds, but this disadvantage does not exist for the 109 in AHII until 400mph IAS, which for the most part is above practical dogfighting air-speeds for prop planes.
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And the pilot had to pull too hard and stall his P-51, easy to do because it didn't give much warning of impending stalls,
Have you flown a Mustang? It gives a great deal of warning before stall...unless you happen to be asleep...or your stick hand is numb. <G>
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/o Columbo
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At low low speeds, it doesn't seem to give much warning, but better than the F4U, I'll tell ya that much.
Believe it or not, I always found the Pony to be much more responsive than the F4U whenever i fly it. Perhaps it is because it retains so much speed and builds it up almost, if not, more than easily than the 1-series Hogs. It feels a lot lighter and rolls similarly.
Of course turn radius, it cannot match a Corsair, but when the two planes are not using flaps, the P-51 feels better. Still though, if a K4 seems tough for the Pony, try fighting the Spitfire XIV. It seems to have ALL the advantages of the K4 in a duel yet with better turning! I don't think I've ever been able to take a Spitfire XIV down .. not with the P-51D. Any suggestions?
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Have you flown a Mustang? It gives a great deal of warning before stall...unless you happen to be asleep...or your stick hand is numb. <G>
You mean the actual bird? No, have you...
I was under the impression that the margin between any sensation warning of the impending stall and the actual stall was razor-thin, due to the laminar flow wing...
All airplanes in AHII give copious stall warning in the form of the horn and the buffet, so not really a factor for us.
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You mean the actual bird? No, have you...
Yes.
I was under the impression that the margin between any sensation warning of the impending stall and the actual stall was razor-thin, due to the laminar flow wing...
Buffet, very noticable, starts a few knots above the stall. It's probably possible in any airplane to yank the stick back quick enough to minimize the "warning" but not a practicle way to fly. Any airplane will talk to you if you're willing to listen. The Mustang gave more warning of the stall than any Cessna I've ever flown. But if you want to really talk stall buffet try the B-17. <G>
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In short yes.....but you have to watch the usage of the name Poni. The B model is much better in the turn than the D. It will hang with 109s in many areas of flight with a good pilot. The use of flaps and throttle management make all the difference in the world. Only when the fight degrades into a true luftberry do I get worried. Otherwise I dont think the 109 is more dangerous than many other planes in a turn fight. Its the vertical that gets me worried....
Steel
The B model is actually all I fly (I'll venture around randomly from time to time, but the B model has my attention currently) and I still have a tough time with 109's.
Also, I've heard that in real life the zoom climb of the Pony wasn't all that bad, however in this game it seems downright awful, why's that?
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The only time I have problems with a 109 family is when its the 109K4. You are as good as dead if the K4 plays to its strengths. Most dont know the plane very well but watch out if they do. The other 109's can be trouble if you get into a single plane fight. Pure vertical and flat turn he has the advantage so keep it 3D. You have to work flaps like mad and use throttle to pull the plane around. Usually my flaps never stay in more than one position for more than 2-3 seconds. One thing you can never EVER do is flat turn a Poni so use yoyo's or similar manuevers. Stop by the DA and I will show you how I fight 109s...
<S>
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It has a good zoom climb. In a zoom from high-speed a Pony will top out about as high or higher than many birds which have much better steady climb. Some of the real monstrosities will give it trouble if you try to outzoom it Co-E of course, but the fact that the max zooms are similar for a Pony and a Spixteen is pretty amazing, considering the latter's huge weight/power advantage.
The B model is actually all I fly (I'll venture around randomly from time to time, but the B model has my attention currently) and I still have a tough time with 109's.
Also, I've heard that in real life the zoom climb of the Pony wasn't all that bad, however in this game it seems downright awful, why's that?
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In the testing I've done offline, the lighter fighters with good powerloading out-zoom the heavier fighters. For example, the Spit16 outzooms the P-47D-40, P-38L and F4U-1D.
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Yeah, I've noticed that Anax. From 400 mph on the deck, pulling straight up and hitting shift-x, I get about 6K feet and some change regained before stall for almost everything. Considering how much better a spixteen climbs than a Jug, the zoom climb must be doing *something* for you...
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The only time I have problems with a 109 family is when its the 109K4. You are as good as dead if the K4 plays to its strengths. Most dont know the plane very well but watch out if they do. The other 109's can be trouble if you get into a single plane fight. Pure vertical and flat turn he has the advantage so keep it 3D. You have to work flaps like mad and use throttle to pull the plane around. Usually my flaps never stay in more than one position for more than 2-3 seconds. One thing you can never EVER do is flat turn a Poni so use yoyo's or similar manuevers. Stop by the DA and I will show you how I fight 109s...
<S>
Sounds good, if I catch ya online I'll be sure to take a lesson or two! :aok
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We all know the Pony is a great plane, but what makes it so great? It has great guns, and great speed, but what happens when you get some one on your tail that can match your speed? Do you call for help? Do you run the the field ack? Or do you actually try and out manuver them? It seems every time I try, it doesn't work very well. Any tips?
Sorry, I know this thread is a little old but I just saw it.
If you get someone on your tail that's a decent stick, you're don for, nothing you can do unless you have a friendly nearby or ack to hug
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Sorry, I know this thread is a little old but I just saw it.
If you get someone on your tail that's a decent stick, you're don for, nothing you can do unless you have a friendly nearby or ack to hug
Experience shows this is not always the case. Hell, it is not always EASY to get a timely kill on a bandit who is determined to jink and dodge in any way possible when flying an airplane of equal or superior maneuverability.
On the contrary, there are any number of lower-wing loaded planes that can make themselves a nearly impossible target for a Pony or whatever worse turning plane if they keep their speeds in the right range. That forces the Pony to predict where they are going to fly and set up for a snap-shot, which isn't easy, and can be dodged by a well time out-of-plane jink. Or, often enough, when the Pony (or any other plane with a dramatic wingloading disadvantage) cuts across the circle to put his nose lead for a shot, the better turning plane will have the ability to put it's nose back on, thus forcing a non-productive nose-to-nose pass.
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/O
Colombo ! been flying much?
Rabbit <?>
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The 190D has an initial climb rate of over 4,000fpm and remains a front-runner in climb rate up to 15K. If anything, one would think it's zoom qualities would be superior to a 109s because of greater mass and "density". So yes, it isn't quite the vertical performer the 109G-14 or K is but it outclasses the P-51. The only quality where the P-51 is definitely superior at typical MA alts, and the one that makes the 190 easier to fight, is wing-loading. Of course, this turns out to be important...makes one wonder why the Germans devoted so many resources to 190s when the game demonstrates that the Messerschmidt is obviously far and away superior? Oh well.
From what I have been told by many 109 drivers (rl) is it was not an easy plane to fly. I was told the 190 was much more forgiving for a new pilot and by wars end that's what the majority of German pilots were.
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From what I have been told by many 109 drivers (rl) is it was not an easy plane to fly. I was told the 190 was much more forgiving for a new pilot and by wars end that's what the majority of German pilots were.
The 109 had nasty stall characteristics. In-game these aren't nearly as apparent thanks to Combat Trim. Flying the 109 with combat trim disabled is a whole different monster.
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The stiffness of 109 controls at high IAS is another factor. This is much more of a problem in "Il2" than AH, beginning to be felt at 280mph. In AH, there is no reduction in elevator effectiveness till over 400mph IAS.
(Oh, and trust me on this one, the designers at Il2 don't *hate* the 109.)
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No, we do NOT all know that.
In the ETO, it was a long-ranged mediocre maneuvering airplane that could perform with its typical opposition at typical altitudes and in any case run down or out-run 99% of what it ran across.
In AHII MA, it is a very poor turning aircraft that is outperformed by much of it's opposition at typical altitudes and can be out-turned, out-climbed, and out-run by a good number of likely opponents.
I have met many 51 aces and have become friends with a few. Non of them ever said that the 51 was a good turning plane. Like BnZ said ..... it had it's job and did it well but dogfighting low with the German planes wasn't one of them.
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You spend your day cruising this board looking for any excuse to make one of your snide little remarks don't you? Seriously, get a life.
Pot. Meet kettle. :rofl
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The 109 had nasty stall characteristics. In-game these aren't nearly as apparent thanks to Combat Trim. Flying the 109 with combat trim disabled is a whole different monster.
It does?
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If the slats are working properly, that should in fact gentle the near-stall a good bit by preserving some airflow over the ailerons and thus keeping some roll control into the very high AoA...
Of course, in r/l uneven slat deployment can rear its ugly head.
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I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
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I have spoke with Bob Goebel at lenght about the 109 and he told me their a wash in the turning dept, now at what speed either plane had an advantage at I do not know. He also never faced a 109K .
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I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?
I have spoke with Bob Goebel at lenght about the 109 and he told me their a wash in the turning dept, now at what speed either plane had an advantage at I do not know. He also never faced a 109K .
I've seen this in a couple of combat shows too, where they interview the WW2 pilots. As per real pilots who were there; The turn radius was very close between P51 and the '09Gs. In WW2 the numbers advantage, altitude, and having fresh, well trained pilots all helped the Mustang legacy. In a vacuum, one on one? Who knows. Its a good all around airplane, a plane the Allies needed at the time. Not great just a plane that did what it was supposed too. Its important to remember that the Germans were on the defensive from 1942 on. They had basically lost the war at the end of Barbarossa. The 109 was outdated by the time the US entered the war. All the mods on the 109 were done to save an aging airframe in a lost war. The HO shot, by cannoned aircraft wasn't the big factor in real combat as it is in AH. Real combat pilots then and now understand which end of the plane had the guns. It simply isn't the most advantages way to win a aircombat contest by flying head on into the enemy plane's guns with your guns blazing.
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I dont know in the PT the plane set lended itself to the US iron in the headon situation.
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I've seen this in a couple of combat shows too, where they interview the WW2 pilots. As per real pilots who were there; The turn radius was very close between P51 and the '09Gs.
I have always felt that the P51 in AH did not measure up to the historical record as I understand it, but I am no expert and have never flown any genuine P51s to compare with, so I just accept the way the plane behaves in the game and try to work with that. It is interesting to note that there are a few guys who ride in the 51s in game who do a remarkable job dogfighting close in. Almost always astonished when I come across one that flys sharp angles at high speed and appear not to lose much (if any) energy. That aint me. I employ very wide angles and try to use the plane as a backstabber (or picker....if that suits you). When it comes to turning with most other combat rides in AH I quickly lose angles and end up diving out or getting waxed......so I stick with the high speed retention use of wide angles regime. Seems to serve me the best in 51s.
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The P 51D is probably my favorite ride, but I think that the game designers were a bit liberal in some of the aspects. And probably not liberal enough with some other planes.
According to some of the WW2 ace's accounts of close in, stall fighting with 109s the big advantage was not the handling but the speed. The P51 could always count on diving out or getting separation when needed.
"I dont know in the PT the plane set lended itself to the US iron in the head on situation." ? Not sure what your trying to say there.
Given the disparate situation the the US (and allies) were in 1941-42 they may have tried to kill at any cost. Remember the Americans, and the flying world paid very little attention to the Japanese aircraft prior to 1941. The Zero was a complete surprise. They really didn't know much about it until they got a flying sample from the Aleutians. So to say they knew that it flamed easily and was of such light construction so they would try a HO would probably not be right. I have not heard or read that the Americans did more head ons on the Pacific than in Europe. The one trait that seems to show up more than anything was the American pilots training and aggressiveness. Another thing to consider is how rigid the Japanese were in their training. Questioning orders was not done. In America we make heroes out of rule breakers. Pappy Boyington for an example.
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Lightweight poorly armored IJN planes stood little chance in a headon situation. I have read plenty of stories about USN and USAF jousting in that situation. I mean heck it was even on the History Channel....
:D
Strip
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Ya cite some examples. Then compare them with the normal attacks.
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I have always felt that the P51 in AH did not measure up to the historical record as I understand it, but I am no expert and have never flown any genuine P51s to compare with, so I just accept the way the plane behaves in the game and try to work with that. It is interesting to note that there are a few guys who ride in the 51s in game who do a remarkable job dogfighting close in. Almost always astonished when I come across one that flys sharp angles at high speed and appear not to lose much (if any) energy. That aint me. I employ very wide angles and try to use the plane as a backstabber (or picker....if that suits you). When it comes to turning with most other combat rides in AH I quickly lose angles and end up diving out or getting waxed......so I stick with the high speed retention use of wide angles regime. Seems to serve me the best in 51s.
You have to understand that the way the 51 is used in AH isn't anywhere near the way it was used for real. None of us take off in a 51 with full internal fuel, two 110 gallon DTs and fly a long range mission at high alt escorting bombers. Remember the altitude the combat was taking place at. Remember the conditions. Because we don't really risk anything, we don't fly the same way
Go back to the DGS scenario and the way the 51s were operated along with the other Allied rides the 47 and 38. It was high alt, long distance flying and choosing combat when it made sense, but knowing you only had one life. Protect the bombers, kill the fighters. How we flew in those situations was nothing like we fly in the MA. The 51s operating in pairs did well but they flew it like their life depended on it. This applied to the 38 and Jug guys too.
The 51 is a very survivable bird flown to it's strengths and had I not been in a 38 I'd have wanted a 51 as it was the best for the job.
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Every once in a while I will do a long range mission....with full internal and droptanks and fly like someone would probly have back then. Take a P-51B up and I fly 100-150 miles to a high traffic area with the two other sides fighting each other. Often I will cruise at 17,000 for best range (30,000 feet is porked currently) and using realistic throttle settings. Havent found anyone that will tag along to make it really authentic however. This is mostly in midwar and its a very survivable plane when you stay fast and bnz.
Strip
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I wonder what's the big fuss over the P51, Fly the 38 and be done with it.
:noid
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I think the best way to be successful in the P51 is to 1. Decide before you take off that you will land (on the runway) after the sortie, kills or no kills. (choose your battles accordingly) 2. Learn to recognize when you have the advantage as well as the ability to recognize the split second you lose the advantage (remember aggressive is the best posture). 3. Make your decisions fast and stick with them (evaluate them objectively after the flight and remember what and why you did something wrong). 4. Do not attack bombers from their six (I still forget this one sometimes). 5. The head on attack is at best a 50/50 deal and those odds are not good enough. 6. De-tune channel 200 because the world is a critic and some are just mean(remember, you pay the 14.95 for the cartoon airplane). :devil 7. When you get the opponent into your sights...don't forget to pull the trigger! If you can work your opponent's relative E down you always have a good chance. I love to fly the P51D and IMHO it is the best, it definitely compensates for my flawed flying technique.
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As far as I am concerned the P-51 may be the best plane in the game. It is all I fly. I can go to a large air field and kill all 4 ords and fly away.
It will out run just about any thing except a very few planes. The range in excellent and it will turn with flaps pretty well. It took a long time flying it to get good with it. It is not a good plane to start out in when you are new. It is however under modeled some what. The P-51s true performance is better then HT has it in the game. Just like the P-38 is over modeled.
R-105
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I have always felt that the P51 in AH did not measure up to the historical record as I understand it,
You are probably right but consider this: A 51 with all the performance it has now, and it turns as well or better than the 109 planeset. I love the 51 but a plane like that would be unbalancing for the planeset. My 2 cents. :salute
Learn to recognize when you have the advantage as well as the ability to recognize the split second you lose the advantage
Then learn to fight from this position and win. :aok
Do not attack bombers from their six
This is a widespread myth, unless you are strictly referring to dead 6.
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You do lose quite a bit of hitting power by coming from behind them.