Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: grizz441 on December 16, 2008, 01:14:18 AM
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So me and Shane just dueled for a couple hours, my P38J vs his La7. We had some good fights, going both ways for a while. Then a shot I took started an argument/debate. I took a shot that he deemed unfair and I of course thought it was clean. I'm sure this is a typical argument that may arise in the DA when emotions get involved. Anyways, I think it was clean but I wanted to post the film to get some veteran's input who have a lot of dueling experience. Shane said he pulled this move to avoid a RAM while I say he did it to try to gain an angles edge on me by giving me a bait shot that if I miss, he has me. I did ram Shane once in the 2 hour period which was entirely my fault which he thought proved his point and justified his need to avoid the dangerous head on with "Grizz the Rammer". Well without further a due, here is the short film. Is the shot clean or should it be passed on?
http://www.speedyshare.com/996200730.html (http://www.speedyshare.com/996200730.html)
Also, a picture of the initial shots being fired before he twists his plane upward.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/FairShot.jpg)
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just from the pic it looks like a bait shot from the ho and Shane flew into it ... if its from the Initial merge then its not legal ... if other wise then it is or if its a deflection type shot ("honest Lev it was a deflection shot " as we bolth have our rudders kicked thru the floor LOL) its perfectly legal in Dueling .
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Here is a film of the next fight of Shane getting his revenge for my cheap shot. Is this the same shot that I took?
http://www.speedyshare.com/772890506.html (http://www.speedyshare.com/772890506.html)
Then...
Here is the very next fight where Shane decided to shoot me head on again. I quit after this fight. Again I ask, is this the same shot that I took?
http://www.speedyshare.com/741967957.html (http://www.speedyshare.com/741967957.html)
(All films are very short, don't be bashful to download)
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The good thing about Shane is he'll tell you what he thinks no matter what. The second you start to take it personal, you lose the battle. I can't remember how many times it was my fault when I've run into Shane in the arenas whether it be a "HO" shot or a ram. I just keep smiling as I know he's probably doing the same. And I do consider Shane one of the 'good guys' in the game, even if he thinks my flying sucks along with my shooting.
That being said, it's always going to be a toughie with any shot that's front quarter. How it looks to you and how it looks to him might just be two different things.
That long brawl you and I had 38G to 38J, neither of us took those shots even though there were opportunities. It seemed like the cut off point for shots in that fight were top view or rear quarter. Naturally we ended up colliding as no one took the nose on shot.
Did you fight it fair, and did the shot look legit to you. I'm on the wrong computer to watch the film so I can't comment on that
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To me you had good angle and it was a good shot. What's the big deal? In my opinion that second video of the LA killing the 38 was more of a HO.
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Let me state I've told grizz I was rolling out of the way (him coming over the top, while i'm still going up usually, altho a bit less verucal in that particular film) to avoid the potential for the RAM/(ho). I never implied Grizz *was* a rammer. I do that in duels because I don't want to risk having a fight mucked up by collisions.
Even the film shows I had the speed to pull into him - I could, and did hold my nose into him at times, some we missed (very close) and one we didn't. I'm sure someone can do the math showing our closure rates and how much reaction time between holding it up or rolling to avoid the potential collision.
Bear in mind these aren't slow rolling scissors with crossing shots, but rather a vertical e/stall fight.
I'm not saying the shot isn't valid, I repeatedly gave it to him, knowing he was going to probably shoot (and he did), even after I had mentioned it several times. It's a shot *I* would hold on normally in a friendly duel.
<didn't save the collision film>. nor any of the ones you nailed me with that shot.. except for this one. (watch in full screen with recorded views/trails). The film was named right when I saved it, lol.
http://www.speedyshare.com/236569165.html
It's the 2nd engagement after SERaider. The merge starts around 2:00. Your first shot came at 2:38, which was a valid one. The next oppt'y came at 3:00 in which I was held it up and you rolled out, not taking the shot, and missing a potential collision.
At 3:21 you see me make the decision to start rolling out with 400yds of separation with our respective speeds being 172 (me) and 218(you) . Could I have continued nosing into you instead? Sure, but we'd be risking another potential collision ala 3:00.
meh... grizz i'll just hold my nose up or pull into you and we'll see how the collisions play out since i know we won't fire. let's hope we'll be able to roll out with slower speeds and not clip something. :aok
it was still fun tho'
let's see how the clued peanut gallery plays out in this... :aok
<edit: Dunno why you posted the last 2 films? Thought you merely wanted an opinion on the specific shot we were discussing? (The 1st film you posted was actually right before the 2nd and 3rd ones - and these 3 duels/films were at the tail end of quite a few duels as you mentioned.) Some kind of strawman to bolster your stance? By that point you knew full well at that point after the merge any shot was valid, even moreso after having been on the receiving end of those gimmes I gave you by rolling out over the course of the evening.>
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<edit: dunno why you posted the last 2 films? By that point you knew full well after the merge any shot was valid, after having been on the receiving end of those gimmes I gave you by rolling out.>
I didn't remember a rule change, all I remember was you saying something to the extent of you were going to "widen up your shot selection" since I obviously was doing the same. Well, those are the shots you took, the last one you took that ended the dueling match was as illegal as they come IMO.
Why are the two extremes to you, avoiding a head on by an entire front screen or having your gun sights right on my plane for the ram? If you could finish off a turn and get your gunsight right next to (Or somewhat next to) my plane I wouldn't fire and we wouldn't collide. I don't feel like your argument holds any ground. Not going to argue in this thread, so we'll let the peanut gallery voice their input on the subject matter. :aok
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Let's toss out the red herring first. The "last match - film 3, the very last one of the evening?" Illegal? <eh?> We merged cold... I took whatever shot presented itself afterwards. HO? Front Quarter? Doesn't matter, according to standardized rules we merged clean and it was on.
Back to the original topic... you are failing to grasp the same point i've repeated over and over... I do not want to risk a collision when I know full well I can continue turning into you. Nothing makes a good fight go... plop... like a collision. This isn't the MA, right? Those shots I gave you, weren't you outflying me, they were gimmes. After stating that repeatedly, *you* still chose to take the shot. And like I said, no problem, with you I'll widen my shot selection, since it's all about the kill and not about the flying... right? Or we can stick with standardized rules, which are still all about the kill, after the merge, of course. Or... ??
This issue really should never have been brought here because you'll find proponents on both sides. What matters was what we agreed on.. my gimmes are all on my own shoulders and I've told you as much. You took what you deemed a valid shot. And like I showed you, going by the standard rules of cold merge then anything goes, I pretty much beat you because *I* chose to take those shots, taking advantage of you doing something I know you'd not do - take the "HO-ish" post-merge shot... one that I don't normally take either.
I repeatedly ask by inference for you to lay off a certain shot and explain why. You don't. So at the end I flip the tables and give you a shot I know you don't like/take.
See the irony here?
Want more? 2:34 - 2:40... http://www.speedyshare.com/863452359.html Think I had the speed to pull thru and rake your cockpit (HO-ish?), risking a collision as well (I rolled away)? You apparently thought you could - front quarter/ho? The shot I gave you there was neither *after* I rolled. It could easily have been a collision if I hadn't rolled, and it almost was (think I want to risk that all the time?) Itchy trigger there, huh? Looks like you weren't gonna hold fire no matter what. :aok The irony? This was at least 45 minutes before the secondary films/commentary you posted above.
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Never let a nasty Federalist live, even if he pulls that lame "shoot a crow out of a tree behind you" thing and then expects you not to ventilate him.
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One thing many dont consider is perspective....
Net lag can change both pilots view of things.
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Nice thing about duels is that you can agree on what shots are acceptable..and what shots aren't.
Personally, I've always been for the cold merge then anything goes...unless agreed upon in advance.
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The other night I saw snaphook HO me..... I'm sure it just looked like it on my end... but I still gave him flack over it. I thought it was funny........... Lag can fool you a lot of the time. Just takes a second to change perspective.
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Shane in the Blue corner, Grizz in the Red. :lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aHrRocA3E
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Shane in the Blue corner, Grizz in the Red. :lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aHrRocA3E
lol but you have it backwards.....
I think your collision excuse is as lame as it comes.
Nice shots Griz you know your whoppinass when ya force the guy to HO ya. :rofl
AND a merge means merge not pull up in front of me before the merge to try and get an advantage.
Additionally just because your plane can u turn in a blink off the eye, and then say "you ho'ed me" you turned into him not he didn't avoid you. poor plane management.
"I know I'll just fly into the guys airspace and claim he rammed me" stupid.
You lose IMHO Opps. Get a real plane
I agree NB not over 5k cold merge game on... except no full frontal hose down that you use in the fight :t ! be nice if the ho was just "coaded" out.
But....It might be to much like another game.
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There are a number of people I've dueled where we've elected not to take nose-to-nose shots. It's a matter of choice to have that stipulation or not. Many times that is agreed to at the 2nd merge when both are staring each other in the face and neither shoots :lol But you got to be nose-to-nose. If I come nose on to find a deflection shot I'm shooting (if they're very close to nose on I'll decline as an allowance for lag). If they come nose on and break into their next turn hundreds of yards out, I'm shooting. That's taking advantage trying to pre-turn, which means I'll take advantage of any shot it leaves.
I don't buy the idea of "I 'could' have pulled into the HO, therefore don't shoot me" idea at all. Maybe you could have, but you didn't. So either avoid leaving the shot more cleanly, or come nose on. That's just my take on the general subject.
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I think only cowards shoot from behind. True duelists shoot face to face so that they both have an equal chance :devil
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I think only cowards shoot from behind. True duelists shoot face to face so that they both have an equal chance :devil
Exactly. That's why real men call the Ho the "John Wayne Merge" :)
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:rofl
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HO on the first merge is the only one I won't take. I try to avoid HO's completely but some times I end up avoiding it and giving up a free shot for the other guy.
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There are a number of people I've dueled where we've elected not to take nose-to-nose shots. It's a matter of choice to have that stipulation or not. Many times that is agreed to at the 2nd merge when both are staring each other in the face and neither shoots :lol But you got to be nose-to-nose. If I come nose on to find a deflection shot I'm shooting (if they're very close to nose on I'll decline as an allowance for lag). If they come nose on and break into their next turn hundreds of yards out, I'm shooting. That's taking advantage trying to pre-turn, which means I'll take advantage of any shot it leaves.
I don't buy the idea of "I 'could' have pulled into the HO, therefore don't shoot me" idea at all. Maybe you could have, but you didn't. So either avoid leaving the shot more cleanly, or come nose on. That's just my take on the general subject.
This was my perspective exactly. He needed to pull much closer to the HO than he did.
Shane the reason I don't grasp your explanation is because it's devoid of reason. Hell, you could probably disprove gravity if you put your mind to it. :D
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This was my perspective exactly. He needed to pull much closer to the HO than he did.
Shane the reason I don't grasp your explanation is because it's devoid of reason. Hell, you could probably disprove gravity if you put your mind to it. :D
Yes, I *could* continue pulling into you (did at times, narrowly missing collisions - the 2nd film I posted shows just clearly how close we came... toss in internet variables and i'd rather err on side of caution in a friendly duel). <--- read this again.
*Could.* For the types of engagements we were doing (you specifically asked for an la7-38 matchup), I thought it was seeing how you could do... like I said the shots I gave you are all on myself. It was your choice to pull the trigger, no biggie. I never asked you directly *not* to take the shot, but rather inferred that maybe you can try holding them for continued flying work. You're all about the relatively quick kill, pulling way hard G's at the merge - you saw how easy it was for me to e-fight rope you if I stayed fast.... but no, wasn't about "winning" per se. It evolved into it near the end, tho'...
So there's really no point in this... I already said "<meh> you took a 'valid' shot." Just as long as you *know* they were gimmes. Seems to me you're out to make a name for yourself at my expense <shrug>. If we ever duel again, it'll be pre-vis alt-capped, anything goes except HO on the merge. Take whatever shots you want.. or not... :aok
<edit> I had no plm with posting the first film (altho it wasn't the best represntation of the shot)... the last two films he posted, were... huh? Did you not see the same shot he tried on me that occurred 45 mins before those last 3 fights? I stopped holding shots (didn't shoot on the merge did I?) and took the ones presented. Seems to me, posting those last 2 films are nothing more than a thinly disguised whine because I took a shot he didn't think I would.... ironic, no? In retrospect, I suppose I could have "quit" after the first 2 questionable (my perspective) shots.
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Seems to me you're out to make a name for yourself at my expense
No way.
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If I'm in the DA, I'll rarely take HO shots after the 1st merge.
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So there's really no point in this... I already said "<meh> you took a 'valid' shot." Just as long as you *know* they were gimmes. Seems to me you're out to make a name for yourself at my expense <shrug>. If we ever duel again, it'll be pre-vis alt-capped, anything goes except HO on the merge. Take whatever shots you want.. or not... :aok
<edit> I had no plm with posting the first film (altho it wasn't the best represntation of the shot)... the last two films he posted, were... huh? Did you not see the same shot he tried on me that occurred 45 mins before those last 3 fights? I stopped holding shots (didn't shoot on the merge did I?) and took the ones presented. Seems to me, posting those last 2 films are nothing more than a thinly disguised whine because I took a shot he didn't think I would.... ironic, no?
Shane I've honestly never dueled anybody before that makes excuses like you. It's not even fun. Every kill I earned on you, you explained to me why it was invalid. I love a challenge and when I fight good enough to beat a vet like you, you just take it away from me. Boy that's fun. Or if I take a questionable shot in your eyes, you have to one up me in the next fight and take a blatantly invalid shot to *prove a point*. Or if I put your plane on fire and disengage, you have to one up me by oil leaking my plane and disengaging to *prove a point*. Or if I rope you in the middle of a fight, next fight you have to come blazing in your LA7 at 430 and just rocket man up at the engagement to rope me to *prove a point*. I've never dueled anyone so spiteful and so full of himself. You are a great stick, it'd just be nice if you showed some more class and actually made it a friendly duel set. Ever heard of biting your tongue and just saying nice kill? I'd say the best pilots I've fought against besides you are Dedalos, Texture, and BatfinkV, and all 3 of those guys are very friendly and will never grumble and stick it to me. When I earn a kill on them, they are very gracious. I like friendly duels. It's a great way to get to know someone and I've met some real friends that way. There's no point to duel someone if it's going to be like this. Probably won't duel you again Shane, which is a shame because you are such a good stick and I get so much out of it. It's just not worth it.
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Then a shot I took started an argument/debate.
First film posted in this thread shows a good clean kill.
Your opponent missed two shots of his own, was roped, gave up his six and was then killed during a badly timed reversal attempt.
It doesn't get any more clear cut than that.
Badboy
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Shane I've honestly never dueled anybody before that makes excuses like you. It's not even fun. Every kill I earned on you, you explained to me why it was invalid. I love a challenge and when I fight good enough to beat a vet like you, you just take it away from me. Boy that's fun. Or if I take a questionable shot in your eyes, you have to one up me in the next fight and take a blatantly invalid shot to *prove a point*. Or if I put your plane on fire and disengage, you have to one up me by oil leaking my plane and disengaging to *prove a point*. Or if I rope you in the middle of a fight, next fight you have to come blazing in your LA7 at 430 and just rocket man up at the engagement to rope me to *prove a point*. I've never dueled anyone so spiteful and so full of himself. You are a great stick, it'd just be nice if you showed some more class and actually made it a friendly duel set. Ever heard of biting your tongue and just saying nice kill? I'd say the best pilots I've fought against besides you are Dedalos, Texture, and BatfinkV, and all 3 of those guys are very friendly and will never grumble and stick it to me. When I earn a kill on them, they are very gracious. I like friendly duels. It's a great way to get to know someone and I've met some real friends that way. There's no point to duel someone if it's going to be like this. Probably won't duel you again Shane, which is a shame because you are such a good stick and I get so much out of it. It's just not worth it.
Can't speak for Texture, but bat and ded would probably hold that shot working for a cleaner kill, especially after the first several times it was remarked on and why it was being done. But no... you want to grab some glory by taking me on in *my* ride vs a ride you were "just starting to learn." All I see you being is a one-trick pony. Not seeing you learn anything.
Let's see... u flamed me then chose to disenage.... i smoke you in return and ask if should let your engine smoke out? I did reverse, tho, right? You rope me - no biggie, so I make full use of the LA7's potential and do the same to you. And you call me spiteful for *returning* the favor? Excuse me while I go reset my irony meter.
And you have the gall to whine about some perceived HO after a clean merge.. I never implicitly agreed to anything, whatsoever beyond the normal rules. Did we both hold some shots? Sure... Did you take as many questionable vs me as I did vs you? Probably.
All I see you doing here now is trying to show you somehow owned me, even tho I explicitily told you after the first few those were gimmes to you. You chose to take that shot repeatedly. <shrug, i've already stated, again repeatedly, that they're on me for giving them to you. I said that in-game and here numerous times. I never said anything negative about you taking them. What part of "I gave you those shots - my bad for expecting a lilttle more of you" are you having problems with?
Why are you persisting in this? The others weren't there or party to what all occurred that night. This should have remained bewteen the two of us, but you wanted to make it public... and I *thought* this thread was only to get a "general consensus" on the shot?
Looks like you lied to me. You've just lost any respect I had for you.
<mutter, final edit> I believe over the course of the evening you received quite a few gk/gs when you made a better kill than the ones we're discussing here. Trying to make it sound like I was totally ungracious, huh? Go re-read the first 4 paragraphs of my original post in this thread. Then re-read the last sentence above this edit. And you're right, we won't waste any more time with each other.
Here's the chat buffer screenies (.jpgs) after the very last fight of the night when you "quit."
http://www.speedyshare.com/522627766.html
http://www.speedyshare.com/245161177.html
http://www.speedyshare.com/417665920.html
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1 correction. I think it was Batfink that Ded got pretty pissed by taking HO shots in duels. And he wasnt what youd call gracious about it.. :P
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The other night I saw snaphook HO me..... I'm sure it just looked like it on my end... but I still gave him flack over it. I thought it was funny........... Lag can fool you a lot of the time. Just takes a second to change perspective.
You know me...i just hose anything and everything then let god sort out it I "won" and rant and rave over 200 if I didnt....this while #@#$ over <S>'s :D
1st and foremost its a matter of intent and interpretation. The better the sticks involved the greater the potential for an issue IMO. In a friendly duel (Bat and I for example) anything beyond the 3/9 line is pretty much verbotten with the occasional exception of really sweet canopy shots acquired by super sweet ACM...what I mean is that the typical "I'm around 1st" FQ canopy job is a mutual pass. Now if I'm in a true duel and I'm forcing a 2 circle fight thats a very valid shot...especially in the MA.
I think this is a true gray area, its a pilots responsibility to manage the fight. A FQ shot is perfectly "legal" and often the advantage is passed when the shot is passed. That being said at its truest form a 3/9 line presents the greatest challenge....
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Looks like you lied to me. You've just lost any respect I had for you.
No I wasn't going to get into it until you started posting outlandish replies. It's okay if you have zero respect for me Shane. I still have the utmost respect for your flying ability. I just think you need to conduct yourself with more class. And no, you gave me zero credit all night, Typing to me "meh, good kill, but you were dead four times before that on shots I held off on, so it really doesn't count" isn't being gracious. Something you need to work on.
<edit> And another thing, I had no intention of grabbing glory by taking you on in your ride. I wanted a challenge in my P38 plain and simple. La7 vs P38J is a very fun diverse yet equal matchup. You beat me more than I beat you last night no question. You are a better stick than me, no question. This isn't about that, I've taken on Dedalos in his ride and got my bellybutton handed to me 4 out of 5 times. It's about wanting to fight the best to try to get better, AND HAVE FUN DOING IT, nothing more. Last night could have been a memorable dueling experience for me. You tainted it badly though.
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No I wasn't going to get into it until you started posting outlandish replies. It's okay if you have zero respect for me Shane. I still have the utmost respect for your flying ability. I just think you need to conduct yourself with more class. And no, you gave me zero credit all night, Typing to me "meh, good kill, but you were dead four times before that on shots I held off on, so it really doesn't count" isn't being gracious. Something you need to work on.
You started it with posting the last 2 fights. They are red herrings. I gave you plenty of credit. Why are you still trying to make it seem like it wasn't the case? I've been nothign less than consistent - where are you getting "outlandish replies?" I've been consistent with my replies from the onset. I guess you had already determined them to be "outlandish" before you decided to post... goes back to my loss of respect for your true motive in posting this thread.
Let me make it real simple for you.
1. You took a valid shot. I've said from the very beginning they were all on me, i.e. "my fault."
2. I explained *why* you were repeatedly being *given* the same shot.
3. You continue to take the shot when I *gave* it to you (which resulted in most of your kills on me actually.)
4. You lied about your motivation for wanting a "consensous" - meaning you really wanted affirmation from the peanut gallery that you did indeed own me thru your "superior" acm.
5. You keep trying to make me look like I was a total ass.
ZERO RESPECT. <click>
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Shane, maybe sometime this weekend, we can get and hour or two in the DA? :salute
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Threads like this make me die a little.
I wish everyone would collectively pull their panties out of the wads they're in and stop worrying. People can't even have clean duels anymore without one of the cartoon plane pilots hurting their e-feelings over the internet.
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Let me make it real simple for you.
1. You took a valid shot. I've said from the very beginning they were all on me, i.e. "my fault."
2. I explained *why* you were repeatedly being *given* the same shot.
3. You continue to take the shot when I *gave* it to you (which resulted in most of your kills on me actually.)
4. You lied about your motivation for wanting a "consensous" - meaning you really wanted affirmation from the peanut gallery that you did indeed own me thru your "superior" acm.
5. You keep trying to make me look like I was a total ass.
ZERO RESPECT. <click>
1. So it was 'valid' yet you started HOing me after that. Doesn't seem like you think it was valid.
2. :huh It doesn't matter *why* you *explained* it. A candy shot is a candy shot. That's like me explaining to you why I'm giving you my tail and since I explained it, you shouldn't take the shot. :lol
3. Quit *giving* a perfectly valid shot that any sane pilot would take.
4. Never said I owned you. In fact I said you beat me more than I beat you and I said you are a better stick than me, no question.
5. You were.
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What I get out of the films is...and this is a totaly unbiased opinion based on what I believe to be fact from fiction...Grizz is right and Shane was wrong... all three times.
Grizz took a good shot that Shane presented to him in an attempt to get away ansd set up another maneuver. Shane was shot down and became upset proceeding to go against even the noobiest of DA rules and Ho Grizz out of anger with disrespect. Even if there was any rule changes, Ho's would not have been included, agreed upon or even mentioned between these two fine pilots.
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What I get out of the films is...and this is a totaly unbiased opinion based on what I believe to be fact from fiction...Grizz is right and Shane was wrong... all three times.
Grizz took a good shot that Shane presented to him in an attempt to get away ansd set up another maneuver. Shane was shot down and became upset proceeding to go against even the noobiest of DA rules and Ho Grizz out of anger with disrespect. Even if there was any rule changes, Ho's would not have been included, agreed upon or even mentioned between these two fine pilots.
Show me once where I'd HO'd *after* a clean merge (at which point anything goes per standard rules).... please. As for the rest of what you said, continue living up to the "TOOL" part of your name.
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Shane, maybe sometime this weekend, we can get and hour or two in the DA? :salute
Sounds good to me.
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What I get out of the films is...and this is a totaly unbiased opinion based on what I believe to be fact from fiction...Grizz is right and Shane was wrong... all three times.
Wrong that I never asked you directly *not* to take the shot, but rather inferred that maybe you can try holding them for continued flying work.
orCan't speak for Texture, but bat and ded would probably hold that shot working for a cleaner kill, especially after the first several times it was remarked on and why it was being done.
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This is what's flying above Grizz' head and probably yours too.. Which isnt really surprising in his case, given his precedent for making drama outta nothing on the forum.
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If your expecting me to respond negatively to your post I will not. I called it as I seen it and still think you both are fine sim pilots and add character to the game..... some should be followed more than others.
I enjoy watching films between good pilots since there is usually lots to be learned.
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See, thats another good example of whats going on in this thread. I'm not baiting you for drama, Im saying it like I see it. Why do you think I'm baiting you? Where in my post is there anything to read as wanting to get you wound up? I'm arguing that Shane is misinterpreted, the same way I misinterpreted him way back when I first dueled him in the DA.. In my case it was him telling me he couldnt get my lag right, to set up his evasives. And truth be told (years after the fact :P) I was playing with some bad latency (but not variance) and he was pretty much the only one to notice it.
If you look in the screenshots Shane posted from mediafire, you can see it pretty obviously.. He's just talking to Grizz and Grizz is already winding up his smack talk.
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I think Tools comment was in reply to shane.
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1. So it was 'valid' yet you started HOing me after that. Doesn't seem like you think it was valid.
2. :huh It doesn't matter *why* you *explained* it. A candy shot is a candy shot. That's like me explaining to you why I'm giving you my tail and since I explained it, you shouldn't take the shot. :lol
3. Quit *giving* a perfectly valid shot that any sane pilot would take.
4. Never said I owned you. In fact I said you beat me more than I beat you and I said you are a better stick than me, no question.
5. You were.
1. Just as "valid" as the shots you took. Are we forgetting these are the very last 3 fights over the course of a few hours? Oh noooo.. you prefer to make it look like it was a constant thing I did. And honey, those were front quarter shots you gave me not a HO-Joust shot. Neither of those times did you have a shot in return. You could have pulled into it, sure. Your choice.
2 and 3. You said you were "learning" the P-38, am I lying? Was I wrong in wanting to let you put it thru it's paces? Did you repeatedly take the same easy shot ***I told you I was giving you,*** instead of passing on it and working for a cleaner kill? Did I hold off on plenty of shots - "you died 4 times" to let you continue pushing that 38? Yeah? That's a "friendly" type thing to do. Seems to me you only wanted the kill - and again all those gimmes were exactly that, deliberate gimmes knowingly given, and taken - not "oh craps I messed up and I'm dead." You think I let people get easy kills over and over on me like that? Puhlease. Let's say you failed the friendly part. I can even post a fim of you earning an honest rope and getting a "GK" from me.
4. Then whats the whole point of this thread? I thought it was to obtain a simple consensus about the "shot" not about the last 2 fights? Valid is as valid does, no?
5. No more than you were. Shall I post films of you at 7k when it was agreed 5k was the alt? I know you were waiting for me to finish with SERaider, but even when i'm waiting like that I stick around at 5k. I can post films of this, too. Several actually. You can also see in those films I was usually around 4k and you would often have a speed advantage - again my choice.
And once again, I never responded in the negative about the shots you took. I never called you a dweeb or anything for taking them. I explained why you were getting them. I think the 2nd film I posted clearly shows your tendancy to try and ram in close quarters. (oooo 2 can play this game, huh?)
I've never once stated they weren't anything other than my own fault for expecting you to try something different by holding the shot. My bad. Somehow I think Snap, Bat, or many of the other friendlies I duel with would hold that shot, especially after the first time or 2, like I would, unless it was an honest rope stallout.
Yeah, go ahead and focus on the paybacks you got for not being too "friendly." All of your deaths, just like mine, came from valid dueling shots.
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Wrong that or?
This is what's flying above Grizz' head and probably yours too..
thank you. it's been my point from the beginning even as the evening was in progress. "try laying off the shot and see what happens" except i never asked or told him to.. directly.
<edit: yeah, latency (not variance) is something I'm very keyed into and is why I can often tell when someone (not thru any of their own fault) has a higher ping time in relation to me, outside of the "normal." Some people have consistently high latency. I notice it now when it gets to be above 200ms or so by the shots I'm seeing taken on me (and hitting, as often as not). The differences *do* have an effect, more pronounced on someone like me who relies on timing.>
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I think Tools comment was in reply to shane.
It was, and I butted in. "Grizz is right and Shane is wrong" misses the point here, the point being what the misunderstanding is that causes this whole argument. They're arguing different things, so you cant say that either one is right or wrong when there's no common argument. You can't say Shane is wrong for doing something Grizz says Shane is doing.. when Shane hasnt done such a thing. Specificaly, Grizz is oblivious (purposedly or not) to Shane's point about ignoring easy shots to actualy win the fight rather than chance the win (and this is something anyone who's flown with Shane in the DA ought to know as 'SOP'). And A8Tool too, apparently.
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Hey! I've acknowledged Grizz' argument all along - about "the shot." Mine went "whoooooosh" over his head.
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5. No more than you were. Shall I post films of you at 7k when it was agreed 5k was the alt? I know you were waiting for me to finish with SERaider, but even when i'm waiting like that I stick around at 5k. I can post films of this, too. Several actually. You can also see in those films I was usually around 4k and you would often have a speed advantage - again my choice.
I take pride in dueling honorably, that is very insulting of you to say. Post a film of me fighting dirty, oh wait, you don't have one.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/shaneho.jpg)
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pecificaly, Grizz is oblivious (purposedly or not) to Shane's point about ignoring easy shots to actualy win the fight rather than chance the win (and this is something anyone who's flown with Shane in the DA ought to know as 'SOP'). And A8Tool too, apparently.
M00t, the maneuver Shane pulled was setting himself up for a very nice angle on me and advantage. I'm not oblivious to Shane's point. His point is hogwash. His intent was to gain an angles advantage on me with that maneuver not to avoid a ram. I think all the trainer's already pointed that out. Why would I ignore a shot on something he is doing with intent. If I pass that shot, He's going to be snap shotting me 3 seconds later. <scratches head>
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I made enough for everybody!
(http://www.frontiernet.net/~shirleyp1/popcornball/popcorn-ball-1.jpg)
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M00t, the maneuver Shane pulled was setting himself up for a very nice angle on me and advantage. I'm not oblivious to Shane's point. His point is hogwash. His intent was to gain an angles advantage on me with that maneuver not to avoid a ram. I think all the trainer's already pointed that out.
It's not hogwash. It's a given that fights end in those circumstances. Lots of us have just chosen to not take that fork in the road so as to keep the fight going. It doesnt matter what anyone else, trainers or not, think of that.
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Here is a film of the next fight of Shane getting his revenge for my cheap shot. Is this the same shot that I took?
http://www.speedyshare.com/772890506.html (http://www.speedyshare.com/772890506.html)
Then...
Here is the very next fight where Shane decided to shoot me head on again. I quit after this fight. Again I ask, is this the same shot that I took?
http://www.speedyshare.com/741967957.html (http://www.speedyshare.com/741967957.html)
(All films are very short, don't be bashful to download)
Watched all 3 films ... didn't see an HO by any of those involved.
Film 1 ... looked like Shane was a little lazy on the reversal and got hammered ... at about 2:32 into the film, it looked like Grizz went to external view for a second when Shane got lost in his cockpit frame.
Film 2 ... looked like Shane decided not to be lazy anymore and dispatched Grizz quite quickly.
Film 3 ... again it looked like Shane decided not to be lazy anymore and dispatched Grizz quite quickly.
I can see the point that Shane was trying to make ... were you guys there to teach/learn ... or were you there to really "duel" ?
Film 1 seemed like Shane wanted to make the fight last and make the duel more about exercising ACM than to really see who can die the fastest.
After Film 1 and the conversation, it appeared that Shane decided to play the "get the kill quick" game when the shot presents itself ... and in that mode, Grizz felt the sting of the La-7.
I also did notice that Grizz did like to pull nose to nose on the merges after the 1st merge. You can see in films 2 and 3 that Shane took a real high deflection shot ... he probably could have pulled by those and continued the fight for a couple more turns, but like I said before ... it looked like what probably was a teach/learn session turned into a who can kill the quickest.
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What I learn most in films from guys like this is throttle management and flap use as pictured above and i never expect to see a ho. Tactics like these are very useful when fighting 2 or more and sometimes even when it's 1 vs 1 becoming very necessary when enemy bogie's are on the way to ruin your fun and make short work of you. I dare not say I have never used this tactic but there is a time and place for it and I try to keep anger out of the picture.
I understand more fully now what was going on between the two but setting up a ho shot is still a ho shot meant to quickly dispatch your opponent.
Edit: Setting up a ho shot
Shane didn't have to take those shots and it could have lasted a lot longer which probably was the original idea. My opinions really mean nothing here but like most people, I post them anyway because i like talking about the game hehehe
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Film 2 ... looked like Shane decided not to be lazy anymore and dispatched Grizz quite quickly.
Film 3 ... again it looked like Shane decided not to be lazy anymore and dispatched Grizz quite quickly.
I could have easily shot him also. Film 3 I could have got guns on him sooner than he did on me and "dispatched" him quickly also. Why would I want to HO him, I fight with honor. That's when I realized the fights had resorted to jungle law and I quit.
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I take pride in dueling honorably, that is very insulting of you to say. Post a film of me fighting dirty, oh wait, you don't have one.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/shaneho.jpg)
are you saying that was a merge shot? if so, you're lying. If not, it's a valid shot per dueling rules.
How about this? (http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/swatpeace/grizz6a.jpg)
screenie which shows you at 6.5k...
yes, you dropped down, yes you cut throttle so you wouldn't be too fast, giving the appearance that you were playing fair. What I see is a con 6.5k who merges with who knows how much speed.
here's the film, too: http://www.speedyshare.com/429963948.html
or how about this one when you were waiting while I finsihed with sko?
(http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/swatpeace/grizz6k.jpg) edit to fix tag
My point, 5k was pre-vis alt cap. What were you doing above it at vis? Doesn't matter what you did *after* vis. I know we can wander up while typing etc, but when I see my self getting more than 100-200 feet above the cap, i get back down to it asap.
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I could have easily shot him also. Film 3 I could have got guns on him sooner than he did on me and "dispatched" him quickly also. Why would I want to HO him, I fight with honor. That's when I realized the fights had resorted to jungle law and I quit.
I realized it was jungle law (but largely didn't act upon it) from the 3rd time *you* took "the shot"... you got about 7-8 kills off that shot. The last two were meant to stick it to you after the 8th one. You cried and ran away because you don't know how to rollout of a front quarter shot after the merge.
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are you saying that was a merge shot? if so, you're lying. If not, it's a valid shot per dueling rules.
How about this? (http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/swatpeace/grizz6a.jpg)
screenie which shows you at 6.5k...
yes, you dropped down, yes you cut throttle so you wouldn't be too fast, giving the appearance that you were playing fair. What I see is a con 6.5k who merges with who knows how much speed.
here's the film, too: http://www.speedyshare.com/429963948.html
or how about this one when you were waiting while I finsihed with SERaider?
IMG]http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/swatpeace/grizz6k.jpg[/IMG]
My point, 5k was pre-vis alt cap. What were you doing above it at vis? Doesn't matter what you did *after* vis. I know we can wander up while typing etc, but when I see my self getting more than 100-200 feet above the cap, i get back down to it asap.
???????????????? You just got done fighting sko, I'm 5k from you. I'm not even engaging you yet. Wow Shane, you are realllly stretching now. This is sickening you are calling my dueling integrity into question.
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You go above "established alt", you lose.
Shane, I'm wanting to do it to learn. "Nothing to prove" here, just wanna work on some things.
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???????????????? You just got done fighting sko, I'm 5k from you. I'm not even engaging you yet. Wow Shane, you are realllly stretching now. This is sickening you are calling my dueling integrity into question.
bla bla bla.... let your integrity answer this question: Was the pre-vis merge alt cap agreed upon to be 5K? I can understand 5.1, 5.2... but a whole 1k+ above the agreed upon alt? Am I claiming you deliebrately used that advantage? No. Am I pointing out that your integrity if full of holes? Hmmm, maybe?
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bla bla bla.... let your integrity answer this question: Was the pre-vis merge alt cap agreed upon to be 5K? I can understand 5.1, 5.2... but a whole 1k+ above the agreed upon alt? Am I claiming you deliebrately used that advantage? No. Am I pointing out that your integrity if full of holes? Hmmm, maybe?
What are you claiming then. I was waiting for a fight to finish 5k out not paying attention to my alt. Then I chopped throttle descended when I realized it was my turn to fight. Asked if you were ready, and came in with the same E as you. My integrity has no holes in it. Nice house of cards Shane. It looks pretty sturdy from the right angle.
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I could have easily shot him also. Film 3 I could have got guns on him sooner than he did on me and "dispatched" him quickly also. Why would I want to HO him, I fight with honor. That's when I realized the fights had resorted to jungle law and I quit.
Which goes to his original point ... in Film 1 he more than likely could have turned back into you on his zoom and gone nose to nose and he chose not to.
In my seven years of flying this sim, I have fought Shane on numerous occasions ... more in the MA than in the DA ... and I can say with all certainty that when the fight is "on" ... he will not leave himself open for such an easy guns solution that was presented in Film 1 ... granted he fell into the "rope" ... bailed to the deck, but that lazy upward zoom, I can only surmise that he was truly trying to "keep the fight going".
In retrospect ... I probably would have taken that shot too (in Film 1), but when he came over text and commented ... I probably would have apologized and at that point agreed to bypass those types of shots ... and then the night could have continued amicably.
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What are you claiming then. I was waiting for a fight to finish 5k out not paying attention to my alt. Then I chopped throttle descended when I realized it was my turn to fight. Asked if you were ready, and came in with the same E as you. My integrity has no holes in it. Nice house of cards Shane. It looks pretty sturdy from the right angle.
and yeah slap, think I give the same easy kill about 8 times? and each time remark "I gave you those, you know?"
it would have been in my interest to keep nosing into him (i'm still far from stalling) knowing full well he wouldn't take the HO and have been even closer to that snapshot as he went under me, or rolled over onto him if he went above or to the side. That's one of my trademark kills... the snapshot as the higher con comes back under me w/o enough speed/control to get his own ho shot out of it.
no no.. don't spin. answer. with your integrity. Were you substantially above the agreed upon alt cap at vis? Yes or no? Simple question, simple answer.
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In his defense (gasp), 1.5k isnt hard to do when you're not paying attention.. And grizz not quite paying attention aint surprising :P I've done it too, like he describes, just once, and had Whels (or a similar name) fly off the handle that I was a cheater and that he 'knew he couldnt trust me / expect so much from me'.
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no no.. don't spin. answer. with your integrity. Were you substantially above the agreed upon alt cap at vis? Yes or no? Simple question, simple answer.
The agreed alt cap vis was irrelevant. At that juncture it wasn't me and you upping for eachother. You were fighting another pilot and I was just flying around in the middle of nowhere waiting for the fight to be over. It doesn't matter if I took a piss and came back and was at 10k. It had nothing to do with the fight I was just out there waiting for you to regain your speed and alt after your fight and then I'd chop throttle get down to reasonable alt (If I was above 5k or whatever), turn for you, and then we fight. You obviously know this Shane. You're just being a twanging amazinhunk. I'm done with this. See you around champ.
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No, he's doing the same thing you're doing, calling it like he sees it. On that note, I'm gonna pull a beet1e and say toodle-pip. I hope to catch you guys later for the next riveting episode of AH philosophy 102 - ethics of keyboard warfare.
<S> despised enemies.
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In his defense (gasp), 1.5k isnt hard to do when you're not paying attention.. And grizz not quite paying attention aint surprising :P I've done it too, like he describes, just once, and had Whels (or a similar name) fly off the handle that I was a cheater and that he 'knew he couldnt trust me / expect so much from me'.
oh i agree... never claimed he was using to his advantage. But he's claiming integrity after repeatedly being above the agreed upon pre-vis alt cap. He should pay better attention. He's trying to excuse his inattention, even tho he wasn't afk.
When i won, i'd usually hang midway point - to allow him time to get to speed at alt. When he won, he'd be pretty much crowding me at my base.. waiting til i was ready of course, but being so close-by made me choose to go in at 3-4k (he waited til i said ready.. my "ready" was my decision.) I'm talking within visual, almost icon range. You'll never find me wandering up that far above alt for that very reason, the implications you *can* use that advantage.
My merge decision is also based upon that potential.
This is why when i DUEL.... i always, always auger in (if i won) to re-up on even footing. For the more relaxed friendly duels I don't mind staying up to save some time, but I always watch my alt.
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I watched the first film grizz posted, and he used external view twice, once to line up the merge, and once to line up the shot.
Aside from that, I know what shane is saying by could've turned into the HO. In the MA 9/10 times most people will turn into the HO, and take the first shot that they can.
In the DA i guess there are two types of duels.
The friendly type where the only shots are from behind the 6/9 line, with the exception of a snapshot.
The no shot on merge, and anything goes afterwards, meaning that the shot that grizz took was fair.
Right after shane was killed he typed, my bad. He was nearly inverted and could've easily pulled back on the stick into grizz avoiding the shot, risking either a collision, or a HO shot.
What i get out of this thread is that grizz and shane were flying different types of duels. Shane was flying more as a teacher, and grizz was flying to win.
What we have here is a failure to communicate... :D :salute
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Cool Hand Luke....................
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I watched the first film grizz posted, and he used external view twice, once to line up the merge, and once to line up the shot.
External view? Can you do that?....and why would you want to? I would think using external view in a duel would be ridiculously cheesy and downright dweeby....not to mention twitlike.
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External view? Can you do that?....and why would you want to? I would think using external view in a duel would be ridiculously cheesy and downright dweeby....not to mention twitlike.
lol, agreed.
Grizz - the fact that you even had a chance to shoot him in a HO situation means it was probably likely Shane was going easy the whole time, just feeling you out, as it were. Sure that shot is 'legal' but did it promote a good fight? that is probably what irks shane a little, that he could kill you in a few turns if that was the game, but he is making a fight of it only to then get hit with a cheap shot. Thus proven by the next two where he only cares about killing you not fighting.
Also, do not agree that was a 'bait shot' as you call it. Shane could have held on you and fired or rammed you. It is still a cheap shot at the last second if they have had guns on you and turn to avoid ram.
If he was trying to gain angles for the next turn, as you say, then what was stopping you turning early also? instead of shooting.
if that makes sense.
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External view? Can you do that?....and why would you want to? I would think using external view in a duel would be ridiculously cheesy and downright dweeby....not to mention twitlike.
yuppers, and this is why I will not go to DA, if someone wants a grudge duel, I invite them to a lonely part of the map, whats funny is most wont show up. :rofl
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External view? Can you do that?....and why would you want to? I would think using external view in a duel would be ridiculously cheesy and downright dweeby....not to mention twitlike.
In the DA ... yes you can ... is it cheesy ? ... as far as I am concerned ... yes.
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External view? Can you do that?....and why would you want to? I would think using external view in a duel would be ridiculously cheesy and downright dweeby....not to mention twitlike.
not to mention nooblike....not to mention twitlike, oh wait you already used that one. :lol Actually honestly I got in a habit of using that since they let you use it. I dueled one of my friends entirely in F3 mode before, it was quite fun and difficult to aim. Then somehow I got in the habit of flickering to it in actual fights. I should stop though, it is a bad habit. I'm also pretty sure Shane used/uses it in that film also at least once. It's just really easy to hit f3 when you lose someone, premerge i typically just like to look at my plane from external. But in the fight it's pretty lame. Why do they even have that option available in the DA? Should only be in TA.
And fellas, this whole teacher/student thing is nonsense. Next time we'll take up planes with no ammo and just duel until we run out of fuel going through the maneuvers. It wasn't even close to a HO and he didn't even get close to finishing his turn, case closed. I have pretty conservative HO rules meaning anything close to a HO I won't take. If my opponent can get his nose half way in his front screen next to mine I wont take it. But an entire screen away from my nose? That's called a front half shot, not a front quarter shot. I also don't have time to analyze what Shane is doing in the middle of a fight. Why is he giving me this shot? As far as I'm concerned he had his brakes chopped and was going to pull up and reverse me there. It's called instincts, I don't have time to analyze how uber Shane is in the middle of a fight and that that shot is so easy it's probably a gimme and I should only take snap shots where I'm going 60 mph because that's the only skilled shot that could kill such an uber pilot in honorable fashion, right?
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Or just go into the TA mate, you can get shot at as much as you like. :D
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Also, do not agree that was a 'bait shot' as you call it. Shane could have held on you and fired or rammed you. It is still a cheap shot at the last second if they have had guns on you and turn to avoid ram.
If he was trying to gain angles for the next turn, as you say, then what was stopping you turning early also? instead of shooting.
if that makes sense.
If his nose would come nose to nose with me (Not Ram close, but close) I wouldn't have been firing. Because, I had to assume I was being setup and was coming in faster than him, not to mention the la7 is more maneuverable. If I would have followed him up there I would be risking a reversal or a snapshot.
I just have to assume I am being setup here, I still think I was.
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but dont you think the fight was unfair anyhow? shane in la7 vs any p38 is unfair? Thus shane was probably going easy on you and there was no need to take that shot. This all looks like a classic 'Ask the community to solve my disagreement whilst giving biased evidence' thread. Shane is usualy fighting people and going easy on them to make Firstly a fun fight and secondly to offer improvement or advice, not to have people complain publicly that he thought your shot was cheap.
overall: meh, i dont think shane cares this much about it. all water under the bridge now?
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And fellas, this whole teacher/student thing is nonsense.
Come on ... Shane in an La-7 vs you in a P-38 ... there is no real expectation of you winning that setup, with any regularity, unless Shane is in "teach" mode.
Now had it been Kappa, AKAK, Murdr, Delirium, Fester, 38MAW, and a few other P-38 jocks vs Shane in an La-7 ... then Shane would have been in pure "fight" mode and a true fight would have broken out.
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Come on ... Shane in an La-7 vs you in a P-38 ... there is no real expectation of you winning that setup, with any regularity, unless Shane is in "teach" mode.
Now had it been Kappa, AKAK, Murdr, Delirium, Fester, 38MAW, and a few other P-38 jocks vs Shane in an La-7 ... then Shane would have been in pure "fight" mode and a true fight would have broken out.
Pretty sure he was trying. If not, then it was a waste of his time as he didn't offer me any advice, just grumbles. Lets just drop it, we are now making crazy fictional stories about a 2 hour dueling set based on 5 minutes of film.
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Come on ... Shane in an La-7 vs you in a P-38 ... there is no real expectation of you winning that setup, with any regularity, unless Shane is in "teach" mode.
Yeah that's true, I'm a huge noob.
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You know me...i just hose anything and everything then let god sort out it I "won" and rant and rave over 200 if I didnt....this while #@#$ over <S>'s :D
1st and foremost its a matter of intent and interpretation. The better the sticks involved the greater the potential for an issue IMO. In a friendly duel (Bat and I for example) anything beyond the 3/9 line is pretty much verbotten with the occasional exception of really sweet canopy shots acquired by super sweet ACM...what I mean is that the typical "I'm around 1st" FQ canopy job is a mutual pass. Now if I'm in a true duel and I'm forcing a 2 circle fight thats a very valid shot...especially in the MA.
I think this is a true gray area, its a pilots responsibility to manage the fight. A FQ shot is perfectly "legal" and often the advantage is passed when the shot is passed. That being said at its truest form a 3/9 line presents the greatest challenge....
In our fights the other day, even in the furball setting it was in, I recall us keeping it pretty 'clean'. I know I didn't take some of the shots I could have, not out of any sense of 'honor' but rather from not wanting to spoil a good fight with a questionable shot, even at the expense of being picked.
ack-ack
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In our fights the other day, even in the furball setting it was in, I recall us keeping it pretty 'clean'. I know I didn't take some of the shots I could have, not out of any sense of 'honor' but rather from not wanting to spoil a good fight with a questionable shot, even at the expense of being picked.
ack-ack
I think thats the hardest part for some folks to grasp, neither one of us wanted to spoil the integrity of the fight itself or "win" in anything less then a stand up way. I'd rather lose 10 good fights (and it felt that way the other night for sure:)) then "steal" a bad one. I think its the fights like the ones we had that leads to my frustration (from the other post) when a good stick for whatever reason doesn't seem to get the same satisfaction out of the actual fight itself. {now that might be unfair in that specific case since I do not know if mm even was tuned to 200 or knew the yak was there. I hosed Del in the AVA last week not knowing there was a 2nd con over and slightly ahead of me. From my view he just pulled up early, when in reality he was getting sandwiched...so when he got hosed by me he was surprised since he knows i'm not normally going to engage as the 3rd guy in...I just had no clue I was}. Fun fun fights BTW :salute
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not to mention nooblike....not to mention twitlike, oh wait you already used that one. :lol Actually honestly I got in a habit of using that since they let you use it. I dueled one of my friends entirely in F3 mode before, it was quite fun and difficult to aim. Then somehow I got in the habit of flickering to it in actual fights. I should stop though, it is a bad habit. I'm also pretty sure Shane used/uses it in that film also at least once.
Evidence?
It's just really easy to hit f3 when you lose someone, premerge i typically just like to look at my plane from external. But in the fight it's pretty lame. Why do they even have that option available in the DA? Should only be in TA.
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And fellas, this whole teacher/student thing is nonsense. [Your opinion. An uninformed one.] Next time we'll take up planes with no ammo and just duel until we run out of fuel going through the maneuvers. [Do you mean to prove something with this, e.g. that you did win these fights, that this is all about who's the better stick after all?] It wasn't even close to a HO and he didn't even get close to finishing his turn, case closed. I have pretty conservative HO rules meaning anything close to a HO I won't take. If my opponent can get his nose half way in his front screen next to mine I wont take it. But an entire screen away from my nose? That's called a front half shot, not a front quarter shot. I also don't have time to analyze what Shane is doing in the middle of a fight. Why is he giving me this shot? As far as I'm concerned he had his brakes chopped and was going to pull up and reverse me there. It's called instincts, I don't have time to analyze how uber Shane is in the middle of a fight and that that shot is so easy it's probably a gimme and I should only take snap shots where I'm going 60 mph because that's the only skilled shot that could kill such an uber pilot in honorable fashion, right?
You don't know what you're talking about. You must have missed a crapload of DA time with everyone from Leviathn to Urchin to Wildthng, etc, to think that there's no such thing as ignoring end-game shots to keep the fight going. And you might be unaware that there's a sort of unspoken consensus that getting the killshot is only half of the success, the other being winning the fight preceding it.
I bolded the key words in your post. You're just denying that there could be something here beyond your horizons. That's your problem, not Shane's, nor is it his fault.
In blue is a straw man + appeal to ridicule. That's not what dueling in AH is about. It's getting hard not to think that you just can't be arsed to learn the rules of the game, and then act like it's everyone else than should adapt to your small pond point of view.
And the point about not having time to analyze what the other guy is doing.. That's like one of the basics of dogfighting, especialy 1:1. It's no excuse whatsoever, here.
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quack quack quack
I find it amusing that someone who doesn't even fly is talking so much crap. I've never flown against you. You don't know anything about me "m00t". You spend so much time trying to stick it to me every which way you can and standing up for the vets even if they are wrong. You know what's the funniest part about it? You can't even fly! :rofl You sit here in the forums and troll my posts like it's your day job. How long did that post take you to construct m00t, 45 minutes? Here's a tip, take all the time you spend writing replies to my posts and get a job at Taco Bell. You might be up in the skies sooner than expected then you can actually duel against me and see if you really know the first thing about how I duel or what I'm about. Until then keep your duck bill shut.
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I find it amusing that someone who doesn't even fly is talking so much crap. I've never flown against you. You don't know anything about me "m00t". You spend so much time trying to stick it to me every which way you can sticking up for the vets even if they are wrong. You know what's the funniest part about it? You can't even fly! :rofl You sit here in the forums and troll my posts like it's your day job. How long did that post take you to construct m00t, 45 minutes? Here's a tip, take all the time you spend writing replies to my posts and get a job at Taco Bell. You might be up in the skies sooner than expected then you can actually duel against me and see if you really know the first thing about how I duel or what I'm about. Until then keep your duck bill shut.
LOL about dam time.
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Meh.. F3.. if I ever use it, it's on takeoff (or dead time) to admire the planes.. la7 is cool looking with the 3d cockpit. I never get to really admire the plane I'm hoping to kill. :aok
During a fight? Not something I do. Who knows, tho? Wouldn't film show? Never bothered to think about it.
Haven't read the rest of the thread. Far as I'm concerned, it's.. meh... no big in the larger scheme.
Grizz can fly well... give him time to learn to fight. :aok
<edit:heh> Oh, and I did offer some advice... to mix it up with his merge. He was being fairly predictable, so I played his game. Won some lost some. We never really had the opporunity to go into a rolling scissors slow on the deck, or into a more e-fighting. It was mostly rope style (with some rolling scissors)... which a 38 can do very well, But also something I very rarely fall into... the pure rope stallout. He did earn at least one honest rope, for which he got a "GK" from me.
Hence my not continuing to nose into his rope. I know if I did he'd not shoot (many do shoot and miss in the arenas, sometimes I shoot back, too, but not in a friendly duel - that's one of the things I do well, weasel out of guns solutions) and I'd be right on his tail with more of an advantage than he thought I was gaining by turning so early.
I wasn't rolling downwards "out of his way into an early turn." I was rolling upwards and turning (still had nice speed) - when we passed I'd be slower and out of plane. He'd have been much faster than when he took those shots. I was wanting to see what he'd do. Never got the chance. :aok
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Shane, we have never had the opperatunity to fight, one of these days I would like to duel ya, to test myself,
my issue with the DA (besides the f3 view)though is I think the merge pass is lame, its all about who can pull tighter,( for the most part) I never understood the concept of flying very close past each other then manuvering around to get the shot, I feel the merge is the most important aspect of a fight, and where you should set up for the kill shot, WITHOUT takeing a HO shot(yes even in the MA), now when you have two "sticks" who know how to merge and refuse to take the HOshot, this is where the epic battles will take place, to me its like a dance or a great fight between Martial Artists,
anyways I would like to duel ya, but
Guns would be hot on merge with no HOs.
Each person takes there favorite plane,no alt cap after enitial merge.
and the whole idea is to KILL the other guy without a HO shot.
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I find it amusing that someone who doesn't even fly is talking so much crap. I've never flown against you. You don't know anything about me "m00t". You spend so much time trying to stick it to me every which way you can and standing up for the vets even if they are wrong. You know what's the funniest part about it? You can't even fly! :rofl You sit here in the forums and troll my posts like it's your day job. How long did that post take you to construct m00t, 45 minutes? Here's a tip, take all the time you spend writing replies to my posts and get a job at Taco Bell. You might be up in the skies sooner than expected then you can actually duel against me and see if you really know the first thing about how I duel or what I'm about. Until then keep your duck bill shut.
unless you secretly know moot and this is a troll........WTF are you talking about? Moot is class, one of the top sticks, widely respected for his flying and his character, generaly polite on the forums and speaks his honest opinion. This must be a troll! :rofl
We had fun the other day dueling Grizz, though now i suspect it was more about you seeing if you could win and me just flying around trying to have a good fight. I thought you got it and were there for the fun of it, not the kudos. If you want to test me to see how you handle my A game...well...just ask, and i will go searching for it, not sure i even know what my A game is myself, so long since i've needed to proove it in a duel.
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I find it amusing that someone who doesn't even fly is talking so much crap.
You mean crap like the string of whiney PMs I got from you? Like the absolutely retarded crap in the other thread, that I'm a lefty, defended glock, or other assorted nonsense?
I've never flown against you.
nope.
You don't know anything about me "m00t".
I know what I see in your posts.
You spend so much time trying to stick it to me every which way you can
Not nearly as long as you seem to think. This post is going to take 30sec tops.
and standing up for the vets even if they are wrong.
Show me where.
You know what's the funniest part about it? You can't even fly!
Is this some kind of boobytrapped troll? :D
:rofl You sit here in the forums and troll my posts like it's your day job.
I'm done with exams.. I've earned the right to slouch around all day long before leaving for xmas vacation, sucking on the university library's endless magazine subscriptions and stopping every 30-45min to read random stuff (a couple of forums and motorcycle stuff (tho racing season's done now) and astronomy, mostly), which helps the serious reading sink in. That's just the way I work.
How long did that post take you to construct m00t, 45 minutes?
a couple at most.
Here's a tip, take all the time you spend writing replies to my posts and get a job at Taco Bell. You might be up in the skies sooner than expected then you can actually duel against me and see if you really know the first thing about how I duel or what I'm about. Until then keep your duck bill shut.
cf batfink's post. Not only are you really not so good in the game to earn the right to smack pretty much everyone you meet like you've been doing, but you're likely to get everyone against you. I dont recommend it, but like I said in the PMs, it's up to you. Not my fault you're a putz.
And you're right this time, took me almost 3min to write this. More than it's worth.. Im done. good luck on the rest of your friendship tour. :)
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A word of advice to all :lol
When you are dueling some one, friendly fight or not friendly fight, please take your shots. Friendly or not, I want to know when I made a mistake. Getting as fight into a stalemate after forgiving several mistakes is really not as a great fight as you guys think. Yeah, it lasts longer, it is not a fight anymore and if there was something to be learned, I missed it since I did not die. You telling me you had shots you did not take after the fight is over is just BS. Keep it it to yourself because on my end it looks just like excuses. In addition, maybe you think you had it but I think you didn't. Take your shots for crying out loud lol I had Shane riding in Bats plane the other day telling me how bat had the shot but did not take it. Why? Why tell me after I won? Why not take it? To me that fight was a waste of time since I don;t know what mistake I made if I made one.
A lot of this not taking the 4,5,7,8 o'clock shots comes from no one, even the so called aces, knowing how to merge without ending up head on with the other guy. Instead of trying to figure out how not to be in that situation, a typical duel has two outcomes. Every one will push hard to always end up in the HO position and hope for the no HO rule, or they will try to break early in an attempt to cheat the turn (meaning they begin their turn earlyer). That is fine but in the process of that, they give you a shot. If you don;t take it, you are at a disadvantage and you will die. If you do take it, you have to deal with them calling it questionable shot etc. So really, all you are left with is a merge after merge with guys ending up kind of HO or guys breaking early. Not really a fight. Just a dance with no meaning at that point.
In my opinion, take the shot when you have it and expect the other guys to do so. The only way for me to learn is to get shot. You telling me you had it but did not take it is not only meaning less, it pisses me off because you wasted my time. What ever you do though, don;t tell me after the fight you had it but did not take it. What you are really saying is that you won, which means that this was not a friendly fight or for fun or learning to begin with.
I am still trying to find out how to not end up in those situations. That is what I love about fighting Bighorn. If he gets guns on you, you die. That forces me to do everything i can to avoid the above situations and not get lazy and rely on the "honor" rules. And remember, just because a fight lasted long, it does not make it a good fight. It was a stalemate. A good fight to me is the I killed you in a few seconds or you blew me out of the sky in a few seconds. If it goes on longer, we both have failed
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That's true ded, when you're dueling for the kill as opposed to having the chance to see what the planes could do... just because a guns solutions was passed up (could've missed) doesn't mean the fight is any less worthy.
All depends on what you're looking for out of the duels. That's where communication is important.
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Ded - You don't get it, but since you're on good terms with the dinosaur, you can ask him about it. He gets it.
if there was something to be learned, I missed it since I did not die.
Except you say that just for the argument, not because it's true... See:
And remember, just because a fight lasted long, it does not make it a good fight. It was a stalemate. A good fight to me is the I killed you in a few seconds or you blew me out of the sky in a few seconds.
Key words in bold.. Good is subjective and 'to me' excludes the definition from applying to anyone but you.If it goes on longer, we both have failed
Well.. failed to end the fight asap, not necessarily failed to have fun.
Strictly flying for the kill makes duels end by HO 1/2 the time and the other half it's more like a quick game of tic-tac-toe. Repetitive and not much fun.
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A word of advice to all :lol
Take your shots for crying out loud lol
well ded i promise that at every opportunity that should appear before me i will happily shoot you!
course i believe i already try to live up to this........i just dont get very many chances
FLOTSOM
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A word of advice to all :lol
When you are dueling some one, friendly fight or not friendly fight, please take your shots. Friendly or not, I want to know when I made a mistake. Getting as fight into a stalemate after forgiving several mistakes is really not as a great fight as you guys think. Yeah, it lasts longer, it is not a fight anymore and if there was something to be learned, I missed it since I did not die. You telling me you had shots you did not take after the fight is over is just BS. Keep it it to yourself because on my end it looks just like excuses. In addition, maybe you think you had it but I think you didn't. Take your shots for crying out loud lol I had Shane riding in Bats plane the other day telling me how bat had the shot but did not take it. Why? Why tell me after I won? Why not take it? To me that fight was a waste of time since I don;t know what mistake I made if I made one.
A lot of this not taking the 4,5,7,8 o'clock shots comes from no one, even the so called aces, knowing how to merge without ending up head on with the other guy. Instead of trying to figure out how not to be in that situation, a typical duel has two outcomes. Every one will push hard to always end up in the HO position and hope for the no HO rule, or they will try to break early in an attempt to cheat the turn (meaning they begin their turn earlyer). That is fine but in the process of that, they give you a shot. If you don;t take it, you are at a disadvantage and you will die. If you do take it, you have to deal with them calling it questionable shot etc. So really, all you are left with is a merge after merge with guys ending up kind of HO or guys breaking early. Not really a fight. Just a dance with no meaning at that point.
In my opinion, take the shot when you have it and expect the other guys to do so. The only way for me to learn is to get shot. You telling me you had it but did not take it is not only meaning less, it pisses me off because you wasted my time. What ever you do though, don;t tell me after the fight you had it but did not take it. What you are really saying is that you won, which means that this was not a friendly fight or for fun or learning to begin with.
I am still trying to find out how to not end up in those situations. That is what I love about fighting Bighorn. If he gets guns on you, you die. That forces me to do everything i can to avoid the above situations and not get lazy and rely on the "honor" rules. And remember, just because a fight lasted long, it does not make it a good fight. It was a stalemate. A good fight to me is the I killed you in a few seconds or you blew me out of the sky in a few seconds. If it goes on longer, we both have failed
this is a very good write-up, I try to kill my NME as fast as possible, and if they survive and we have a great twisting turning fight, then he is the worthy advasary, if its a "friendly" duel then it should be done in the TA, so you can merge and re merge till your hearts content.
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What's a shane?
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Strictly flying for the kill makes duels end by HO 1/2 the time and the other half it's more like a quick game of tic-tac-toe. Repetitive and not much fun.
yeeeeeeeeep.... that's one reason why dueling per se can get boring for me after a while.. it becomes fairly repetitive when it's "on" for the killshot.
That's why I suggested to Grizz to mix up his merges instead of basically doing the same thing all the time... that's his relative fight/duel inexperience, not his skill. I could easily have blown thru the merge and worked it as an e-fight and more than likely win in what he'd consider a "boring" manner - and he'd be right, sort of, but nooooo.. i do like to twist the la7 (or whatever) around... it only helps me get better. I'm not quite back to my pre-break fine-edge level... plus I no longer have the same intensity...
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What's a shane?
well, a shane isn't a messiah... :aok
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unless you secretly know moot and this is a troll........WTF are you talking about? Moot is class, one of the top sticks, widely respected for his flying and his character, generaly (Exactly)polite on the forums and speaks his honest opinion. This must be a troll! :rofl
We had fun the other day dueling Grizz, though now i suspect it was more about you seeing if you could win and me just flying around trying to have a good fight. I thought you got it and were there for the fun of it, not the kudos.(Kudos from who? The fly on the wall?) If you want to test me to see how you handle my A game...well...just ask, and i will go searching for it, not sure i even know what my A game is myself, so long since i've needed to proove it in a duel.
I understand that you are sticking up for your buddy and yes we did have some very good fights the other day. I said m00t trolls my posts and has made some general assumptions on how I duel or what I'm about IN the game. My point is we have never fought or chatted in game which is about 90% of getting to know someone. Nah mechanic, fighting with you that night was purely for fun and the challenge once I realized how skilled you were. I had never heard of you before then anyways (i had to ask you for your forum name) but now recognize that you are one of the better sticks and you whipped my tail. But you're right, I definitely was trying to win honorably. Same flying against Ded, I was trying to win. What does that have to do with the fun of it? Or the integrity of it? Pretty sure Dedalos hit the point home with his post. And I'm also pretty sure Dedalos even though more skilled than me, was trying to whip me too. Mechanic is it possible that me and Shane just had a rough night in there OR that I simply don't like m00t? m00t isn't Jesus Christ, I can have my opinion of him without having his disciples defend him. Concise point, I try to win when I duel in honorable fashion and have fun doing it. If I get my butt whipped? Well, still a lot of fun because I obviously got some good fights out of it.
You mean crap like the string of whiney PMs I got from you? Like the absolutely retarded crap in the other thread, that I'm a lefty, defended glock, or other assorted nonsense?nope.I know what I see in your posts.
You mean my PM that I apologized to you for that? And you responded by calling me a avacado? Real classy.
Not only are you really not so good in the game to earn the right to smack pretty much everyone
As you would say, evidence? You + Shane doesn't = everyone
And as for my flying, again I say, get a computer that runs the game? My computer is FIVE years old and runs it perfectly fine. Until then, your comments about my flying ability are, well your name, moot.
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That's why I suggested to Grizz to mix up his merges instead of basically doing the same thing all the time.
Meh, I did vary my speeds and my merges but nothing drastic. My options are limited in a 38 vs La7 matchup. I do have a bag of tricks in a plane that can turn but the 38 is limited. The reason I was hard Ging as you put it was because the la7 can turn on a dime at merge speeds and I needed to get my plane around as sharp as I could so you didn't get a 1/2 or 1/4 shot on me on 2nd merge. If I was fast or pulled a softer G turn into the second merge, usually I'd have to make you miss by knife edging my plane and then going vertical to try to stall you out, the 38's strong suit.
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Key words in bold.. Good is subjective and 'to me' excludes the definition from applying to anyone but you.Well.. failed to end the fight asap, not necessarily failed to have fun.
Well, duh :rofl Are you guys talking on behalf of everyone else or just stating your opinions?
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yeeeeeeeeep.... that's one reason why dueling per se can get boring for me after a while.. it becomes fairly repetitive when it's "on" for the killshot.
That's why I suggested to Grizz to mix up his merges instead of basically doing the same thing all the time... that's his relative fight/duel inexperience, not his skill. I could easily have blown thru the merge and worked it as an e-fight and more than likely win in what he'd consider a "boring" manner - and he'd be right, sort of, but nooooo.. i do like to twist the la7 (or whatever) around... it only helps me get better. I'm not quite back to my pre-break fine-edge level... plus I no longer have the same intensity...
I am not arguing against a long fight. Getting to the twisting and turning is good only if you made it there because of your ability. Not because someone decided not to kill you when he could.
This is more for Moot, but . . . No need to put someone down because he did not agree with you or a friend of yours. I don;t play for the kill shot. I love a twisting long fight, but only if it got to that point because of myne or your abilities. Not because someone held fire. If the goal is to learn, I want to learn how to make the bad guy get to that point.
Now, as I said earlier, lets stop pretending. If this is about fun and teaching people, keep your mouths shot after the fight unless you are going to tell me what I did wrong. I don;t need to know that you passed a shot, I don;t need to know that you were just experimenting, I don;t need to know that you were too fast, I don;t need to know that you were too slow, I don;t need to know you missed etc. Especially when you are only riding in someone else's plane :rofl That tells me one thing only. I really was about the win :aok
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batfink ate my hamster!!
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Ded, i never complain that i hold fire. The only thing you hear me ever say is that i didnt take the type of shot i was killed by. It's never a complaint. As to the reason why, i dunno, i geuss we just look at things completely differently.
I believe it comes from an over riding arrogance within myself, I dont have to take this weak shot because i i should be able to get your six in a few more turns/ Sometimes i can, sometimes i cant, but i never blame a person for taking shots even you and the 'i got guns on 1 second earlier so i can fire' no hos. whatever. just different folks for different strokes.
oh and us dueling the other day with shane, you make it sound like i lost and complained. i dont think i lost more than a couple and i dont think i complained.
this is a very good write-up, I try to kill my NME as fast as possible, and if they survive and we have a great twisting turning fight, then he is the worthy advasary, if its a "friendly" duel then it should be done in the TA, so you can merge and re merge till your hearts content.
in the MA i agree, in the DA with long term dueling partners you tend to search for something a little more worthwhile after the 10,000 fights just to kill.
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oh and us dueling the other day with shane, you make it sound like i lost and complained. i dont think i lost more than a couple and i dont think i complained.
See what I mean? I never said you complained and I don;t think I was talking about anything you did or who won. You see? It is about the win after all. So now in a true "AH Ace" form I should say that I was trying new things, was just flying for fun, did not take a shot? You see my point?
You said that you will not take a weak shot because you think you can be on my six in a few turns. Thats safe and easy to say. However, if you notice on the posts here, the complains are always about the bad guy taking a weak shot while the good guy is cheating the turn (meaning that he turns early and exposes himself to fire in hopes that the other guy does not fire). So really, what you said is not the issue. You holding fire is not the issue. The issue is that the other guy did not.
That translates to "I know I can get on your six in a few turns if you play nice and don;t kill me when I try to get an advantage". This is what I want to learn Bat. I want to learn how to get that advantage without having to rely on other guys kindness :lol This is why I don;t like it when someone holds fire or claims they did.
Now, if you learn how to fight like that, always depending on the bad guy to hold fire, how on earth could you possibly apply any of this in the MA? I try to pretend that the fighting is as real as it gets. Going merge after merge after merge ending up HO is not something I would want to do if I was in a real plane. Collisions are not friendly and neither is the enemy.
In any case <S> Non of this is personal right? We are just talking
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I am not arguing against a long fight. Getting to the twisting and turning is good only if you made it there because of your ability. Not because someone decided not to kill you when he could.
This is more for Moot, but . . . No need to put someone down because he did not agree with you or a friend of yours. I don;t play for the kill shot. I love a twisting long fight, but only if it got to that point because of myne or your abilities. Not because someone held fire. If the goal is to learn, I want to learn how to make the bad guy get to that point.
Now, as I said earlier, lets stop pretending. If this is about fun and teaching people, keep your mouths shot after the fight unless you are going to tell me what I did wrong. I don;t need to know that you passed a shot, I don;t need to know that you were just experimenting, I don;t need to know that you were too fast, I don;t need to know that you were too slow, I don;t need to know you missed etc. Especially when you are only riding in someone else's plane :rofl That tells me one thing only. It really was about the win :aok
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Seems I have been running into more E fighters in the DA lately. I prefer the lets get it on aggressive duel.
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Seems I have been running into more E fighters in the DA lately. I prefer the lets get it on aggressive duel.
Where have you been foo
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Where have you been foo
Much work, and little play! :D
I was in the DA the other evening with Bat and Rud3boi and hellbent and some others.
You in the DA much anymore?
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See what I mean? I never said you complained and I don;t think I was talking about anything you did or who won. You see? It is about the win after all. So now in a true "AH Ace" form I should say that I was trying new things, was just flying for fun, did not take a shot? You see my point?
You said that you will not take a weak shot because you think you can be on my six in a few turns. Thats safe and easy to say. However, if you notice on the posts here, the complains are always about the bad guy taking a weak shot while the good guy is cheating the turn (meaning that he turns early and exposes himself to fire in hopes that the other guy does not fire). So really, what you said is not the issue. You holding fire is not the issue. The issue is that the other guy did not.
That translates to "I know I can get on your six in a few turns if you play nice and don;t kill me when I try to get an advantage". This is what I want to learn Bat. I want to learn how to get that advantage without having to rely on other guys kindness :lol This is why I don;t like it when someone holds fire or claims they did.
Now, if you learn how to fight like that, always depending on the bad guy to hold fire, how on earth could you possibly apply any of this in the MA? I try to pretend that the fighting is as real as it gets. Going merge after merge after merge ending up HO is not something I would want to do if I was in a real plane. Collisions are not friendly and neither is the enemy.
In any case <S> Non of this is personal right? We are just talking
whoa there.. don't take a situation bewtween myself and grizz and try to apply a broader brush. And in regards to "letting you know you messed up" - here's a film where you can see the "hold the kill shot" fun (outside of an arranged duel environment). The first match up was la7 vs a 109g2 with someone who was learning the g2. I later also went with a g2 w/gondies vs the g2 w/o and also held some shots.
http://www.speedyshare.com/714776134.html
The guy appreciated the fact I did what I did, even tho I was not too far from A2 (Rook FurBlake base) and could have taken the shots presented with minimal time to return for him... but I didn't. It really all depends on what you're looking for.
I can dig up some films in which you'll see just how I weasel out of guns solutions and end up with a great reversal advantage... by holding into the guy and rolling out of their guns solution, without regards of the risk of ram/ho (trusting my timing) - totally differently than a "friendly-type" of duel. But do I really need to do this?
Now... the way grizz repeatedly got me was me not doing what I can normally do. And I explained why. <shrug>
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My last post in this one.
Grizz - You drama queen.. You're so :cry :cry'in full of it that I couldnt even correct everything that's wrong with what you wrote without getting the thread locked by sheer amount of one liner corrections.. You'd pretend 2+2 didnt = 4 anyway, like you did last time around. You are just that much of a dumb piece of :cry :cry'in trash. That's not hate or a grudge.. I'm saying exactly what I see. I'm no hypocrit like you are.. You werent pushy last time around - you purposedly ignored people who showed you very concisely that what you were 'pushing' was totaly wrong, and when that didnt seem to stick, you fell back on straw men and appeals to ridicule.. which unfortunately were also completely bogus. And you're still doing it. Batfink isn't a disciple, or "defending" me (apparently you have some kind of accute "defense" phobia), he's calling you out for exactly what you come off and obviously are. I wasn't kiddin when I said by PM "running with scissors".
"because I dont like moot" :cry :cry :cry me a :cry :cry'in river.
Ded - you start off your post with 'advice for everyone' and then advise them to conform their opinion to yours.. Or at least inform them that they ought to not fly any other way than yours. So pointing out that it's all only your opinion is pertinent. And nope, I dont take it personal.. just chat.. except for Grizz over there.. He's persuaded that telling him what's on your mind has to be from a grudge and hate, if you happen not to dance his BS fairy dance.
Random pick: Now, if you learn how to fight like that, always depending on the bad guy to hold fire, how on earth could you possibly apply any of this in the MA?
Not "always". It's under agreement to keep the fight going. Applying what you learn with peolpe like you and Batfink or Shane never really works in the MA, because over there most of the bogies are dead before you get to the point where you really make an effort. And anyway.. The fight is the reward.. There's no prize. It's all just pixels. Having fun with it is the point. Fun doesnt HAVE to be insta-gib. That's just opinion.. as I meant to point out.
KOTH or duel ladders and other true competitions are another story.
the end.
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m00t I'm surprised you even play video games. You are the most serious person ever! Never even seen you engaged in a joke, always crying in your wheaties though. Try an emoticon one time or a joke. You might enjoy yourself more. :aok Drama queen = you m00t.
you purposedly ignored people who showed you very concisely that what you were 'pushing' was totaly wrong, and when that didnt seem to stick, you fell back on straw men and appeals to ridicule.. which unfortunately were also completely bogus.
"Ignored" what people show me. Meh (Btw Shane I took your interjection, I like it haha), just like you are ignoring what I'm saying. It's called an opinion m00t? Believe it or not, when you speak it's opinion also. I didn't ignore Shane's point, I just have an entirely different take on it than you do. I'm obviously on the same page with Dedalos while you, mechanic, and Shane are on an entirely different page.(Which is fine) So let me say it one more time. The cheap shot that is being "given" is an early turn setting up an advantage for the next stage of the fight. I've dueled SkyRock he does this on purpose. He told me on VOX quote "I want to give you a shot and I want you to take it because I know if you miss, I'll have the advantage and get ya." So why would I not take a shot that is giving a better turning plane an angles advantage? I can totally understand Shane's point that he doesn't want to come head on with me because for one, There's a ram possibility and for two, it's not realistic because on the MA you are just going to get head on'd. So while he did pull a very good maneuver, I still have to miss for the maneuver to be complete. One might call this, a double edged sword? And when I'm flying against Shane I'm really in no spot to be giving Shane extra advantages by holding shots while he sets me up. :aok
Shane, you kept pushing home the point that you *gave* me the shot. Yes sir you did, I *give* players shots all the time in the MA hoping they will miss because if they do, it's over, they're reversed. Shane, since I did shoot and kill you there, it should help you because you know that what you were trying to do wasn't timed correctly. Next time I'm sure your timing will be better and, while you might still give me a shot, it will be much more low percentage than the one you gave me. Can we find a middle ground here?
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I shortened the length of the title so people would stop complaing about the forum only allowing 80 characters in thier posts.
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I shortened the length of the title so people would stop complaing about the forum only allowing 80 characters in thier posts.
Should we start a thread for that? :lol
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Should we start a thread for that? :lol
Already happend.. that's why Skuzzy came here to shorten subject line.
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I shortened the length of the title so people would stop complaing about the forum only allowing 80 characters in thier posts.
Yeah it was kind of a crappy title name.
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my timing wasn't "off" grizz.... think it'd be off 6-7-8 times? with me telling you after the 3rd they were gimmes? meh... like i said, i'm not coming down on you for taking the shot - i could have continued keeping my nose into you at the speeds i had (and despite what you claim, it wasn't me trying for some advantage, but merely trying to get out of your flight path. I know my motivations. You can only assume you knew them.)
You'd rather gamble with internet vagaries and "try to avoid the collsion" in that case. I'd rather not risk it under the circumstances i thought we were operating with - learning the 38 and all as opposed to straight up fighting.
And beleive it or not I did hold up quite a few non-front quarter shots (whether they'd hit for an outright kill is debatable), just to allow you to keep flying/learning.
but.. really... whatever. meh... :aok
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I'm at work right now so I can't view the films Shane posted, but I have a hunch they are the fights that we had last night.
I would like to thank Shane for the learning experience. I had fun even though I don't think I got a single hit on him (I haven't had time to review the films). Yes, there were instances where I saw what looked like a viable snapshot for him yet he held fire, and in my eyes this is a better learning experience than if he just blasted me out of the sky. The reason I say that is, it is advantages to be able to recognise when someone has, or is going to have a guns solution on you. I can't count how many times I thought I was going to have a shot on him and at the last minute he would move out of the way.
Shane I'll be looking for you in the DA I'm always willing to learn.
Thanks Skuzzy :aok
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Ded you are taking my words and making them fit your opinion. If you still dont understand my viewpoint or the reason why some of us try to make alonger fight thats too bad. It certainly has nothing to do with 'expecting to get away with an early turn' or whatever. And nope, not personal, just opinion.
S!
edit: hey Ded, here is a perfect exmaple from me and you the other day.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/example.ahf
At 00:55 i could have been setting up for a frontal shot and then at 00:59 you turn way early thus making any shot i could have easily set up, valid. I didnt even set up that shot, but tried to play past it to something more worthwhile. But it turns out that i should have taken it because i lose next turn. Notice my only comment is 'good shot'. This is not a complaint, I am perfectly capable of setting up those shots if i need to win. You messed up here and should have been shot at at least, if thats what you want to know here it is :D
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I'm at work right now so I can't view the films Shane posted, but I have a hunch they are the fights that we had last night.
I would like to thank Shane for the learning experience. I had fun even though I don't think I got a single hit on him (I haven't had time to review the films). Yes, there were instances where I saw what looked like a viable snapshot for him yet he held fire, and in my eyes this is a better learning experience than if he just blasted me out of the sky. The reason I say that is, it is advantages to be able to recognise when someone has, or is going to have a guns solution on you. I can't count how many times I thought I was going to have a shot on him and at the last minute he would move out of the way.
Shane I'll be looking for you in the DA I'm always willing to learn.
Thanks Skuzzy :aok
yeah... the first one before i hopped into the 109g... it was fun (i know how squirrely i can be to put a shot on, especially in a 1 v 1 situation.) keep at it, tho, as the 109's can give lala's fits. it's throttle/flap work that's the key when you're lower speeds. You can find me there these days... if I'm in FurBlake and you'd like assurances of non-interference we can move to the paired bases. freebie hint: use the 6k base so as to take away most of the lala's wep at the 4.5k deck and above. :aok
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my timing wasn't "off" grizz.... think it'd be off 6-7-8 times? with me telling you after the 3rd they were gimmes? meh... like i said, i'm not coming down on you for taking the shot - i could have continued keeping my nose into you at the speeds i had (and despite what you claim, it wasn't me trying for some advantage, but merely trying to get out of your flight path. I know my motivations. You can only assume you knew them.)
You'd rather gamble with internet vagaries and "try to avoid the collsion" in that case. I'd rather not risk it under the circumstances i thought we were operating with - learning the 38 and all as opposed to straight up fighting.
And beleive it or not I did hold up quite a few non-front quarter shots (whether they'd hit for an outright kill is debatable), just to allow you to keep flying/learning.
but.. really... whatever. meh... :aok
You did hold up some front quarter shots for sure, usually on the 2nd merge when I knew I could get my plane around to you and you wouldn't shoot even though you were beating me in the turn by a second or so. Yeah I understand you were giving me those shots Shane. I never claimed you weren't giving them to me. But you have to admit you are giving yourself a greater advantage pulling that move you did 7-8 times versus flying through me (assuming we don't ram :)) Whether or not this was your intention, you are creating an advantageous situation for yourself. If I miss you there which I'm sure I did at least a couple times, you probably kill me soon after that because it's such a beautiful move and setup. It is a bait move for sure. The reason I say your timing is off is because how easy I was able to get guns on you. If our goal is to be able to apply lessons learned to MA, imo me killing you with ease multiple times in that duplicate scenario might show you that your timing is slightly off there? But like it's already been established in 8 pages of argument, we were on different pages on what we were trying to accomplish. I was looking at it as a very challenging situation, and trying my hardest to kill you while having fun of course. You were looking at it as not really a challenge but more so of trying to let me get the most out of it which I appreciate. What I didn't appreciate was when I did kill you, you sort of took it away from me with a comment like Dedalos mentioned in general a page back. I can understand why you didn't like me firing there if you were testing me and wanted to see what the fight would evolve to if I held guns there. I guess we were just on different pages.
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Grizz... if it's a "fight" there's no way i'm going to give you a shot that easy, repeatedly. If they were ropes where i was stalled(ing) out that far under you, sure. But they weren't, and i wasn't.
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Grizz... if it's a "fight" there's no way i'm going to give you a shot that easy, repeatedly. If they were ropes where i was stalled(ing) out that far under you, sure. But they weren't, and i wasn't.
If it was a fight what would you have done differently?
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If it was a fight what would you have done differently?
turned more into you, held it up and scooted off the shot much closer in and made the flip then, right back on your tail with you having initially more speed as ur going down, but i'd have the advantage of being above you and able to react to your next move... more than likely at that point it'd evolve into more of a rolling scissors... which is where you need the work on, no? :aok
we already both know the lala can climb like a raped ape, and the 38 can float like an angel... in that roping situation, it becomes who stalls out first, and then it's either a damage/death for either in the frontal aspects or a quick snapshot as the higher, but too slow to move much bogey falls under the now stalling lower bogey, or the lower guy simply stalls too low and gets nailed. Of course, as we know, this can result in collisions as both are fairly slow and less manueverable, especially the planes we were in (not the best of roll rate).
If none of *those* shots are taken, or missed, then ususally the guy who started out on top is now at the momentary disadvantage, but with speed to convert to continued acm... or in the case of less experienced players... a diveout and run.
I've made a career of killing pure ropers and bnz'rs, starting in AW3 on Gamestorm... in fact this is where I obtained most of my defensive to offensive experience and style... and... timing.
i'll try and find a film that clearly demonstrates this.
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turned more into you, held it up and scooted off the shot much closer in and made the flip then, right back on your tail with you having initially more speed as ur going down, but i'd have the advantage of being above you and able to react to your next move... more than likely at that point it'd evolve into more of a rolling scissors... which is where you need the work on, no? :aok
we already both know the lala can climb like a raped ape, and the 38 can float like an angel... in that roping situation, it becomes who stalls out first, and then it's either a damage/death for either in the frontal aspects or a quick snapshot as the higher, but too slow to move much bogey falls under the now stalling lower bogey, or the lower guy simply stalls too low and gets nailed. Of course, as we know, this can result in collisions as both are fairly slow and less manueverable, especially the planes we were in (not the best of roll rate).
If none of *those* shots are taken, or missed, then ususally the guy who started out on top is now at the momentary disadvantage, but with speed to convert to continued acm... or in the case of less experienced players... a diveout and run.
I've made a career of killing pure ropers and bnz'rs, starting in AW3 on Gamestorm... in fact this is where I obtained most of my defensive to offensive experience and style... and... timing.
i'll try and find a film that clearly demonstrates this.
Nice description. So wait, why didn't you turn more into me and do this? This is still going swoosh, right over my head :)
<edit> Because of the possibility of a ram? Meh, I think you need to play your A game and if a ram happens, it's the nature of the beast.
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Sheesh just rematch and no pulling punches. Best 3 out of 5. Post films and gloat.
:devil
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Nice description. So wait, why didn't you turn more into me and do this? This is still going swoosh, right over my head :)
<edit> Because of the possibility of a ram? Meh, I think you need to play your A game and if a ram happens, it's the nature of the beast.
here ya go grizz... 3:25-3:50ish vs the pony... (1st fight is vs messiah in 109k - didn't know it was him, tho' - might've held a shot or 2 :aok ) See how I held it into the pony? Check Could I have nosed even more into him for a HO-shot? Check. Did I risk a collision? Check. Did I scoot out of his shot? Check. Did the pony get nailed for it? Check.
http://www.speedyshare.com/544848769.html
Yanno.. now that I've thought about it... you've kept repeating I was making an early turn for some perceived advantage. Actually, it's *you* making that early turn, either thinking I'm stalling out, or trying to force me into a ho/ram response, which I chose not to want to take under the circumstances. And explained, why, yes?
By turning into me when we're relatively close (too early given the speeds), and I did have speed, you are also risking a shot in the face/collision in an MA environment. I'd definitely have either done what this film shows or... took the ho/frontal aspect shot on the failed/aborted rope attempt as they come down into me. Both choices have their own risk/reward.
You eased out of those climbs too early. Was it because you knew I would also pass up on a ho/front quarter? Talk about looking for an advantage. :aok Or were *you* stalling out? I'd never reverse at those distances in those situations unless I was fairly certain the guy was stalling out under me, i.e. rolling *before* my higher plane would. I repeatedly turned out of your nose (and upwards/level, not stalled out) *after* you turned back into me, not before (stall/"bail" clue). Do you need practice in recognizing a stallout, perhaps? :D
Do you get it now? The film shows you just how fine I cut my rollouts from guns solutions. Sometimes I err, sure... but overall... nope.
meh. :D
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I'm shocked this is still going on
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I can't download that film right now for some reason. I'll try later. Shane all I did was nose down at you and fly in a straight line lolz. Not really an early turn but lets just end this. I'm not hot about it anymore and even though I said I'm not going to duel you ever again, we probably will. I won't take that shot in the future out of respect even if I think it is completely valid. You will probably kill me 3 seconds each time afterwards but who knows :).
Meh.
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Let it go for heaven's sake. Who the heck cares. The planes are fake, as are the pilots. Have fun and forget about it.
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Let it go for heaven's sake. Who the heck cares. The planes are fake, as are the pilots. Have fun and forget about it.
See above post Guppy! It is gone, you wrote this message fifteen minutes late. :aok
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Ded you are taking my words and making them fit your opinion. If you still dont understand my viewpoint or the reason why some of us try to make alonger fight thats too bad. It certainly has nothing to do with 'expecting to get away with an early turn' or whatever. And nope, not personal, just opinion.
S!
edit: hey Ded, here is a perfect exmaple from me and you the other day.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/example.ahf
At 00:55 i could have been setting up for a frontal shot and then at 00:59 you turn way early thus making any shot i could have easily set up, valid. I didnt even set up that shot, but tried to play past it to something more worthwhile. But it turns out that i should have taken it because i lose next turn. Notice my only comment is 'good shot'. This is not a complaint, I am perfectly capable of setting up those shots if i need to win. You messed up here and should have been shot at at least, if thats what you want to know here it is :D
Witout watching the film Bat, if I did mess up and you had the shot, you should have killed me. That would have been my expectation. I think my point should be easy to understand. I have nothing to gain by not getting killed in that situation. If I messed up, I never got to know about it and gained nothing by continuing a fight that under normal conditions would have never gotten to that point. I know how to handle my planes by now. The only think i need or want to learn is how to avoid those situations.
The other point is that telling someone you (and I dont mean you personally) that you had a shot and passed after he kills you, will lead to nothing good. Dont tell him. Show him by shooting him
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Witout watching the film Bat, if I did mess up and you had the shot, you should have killed me. That would have been my expectation. I think my point should be easy to understand. I have nothing to gain by not getting killed in that situation. If I messed up, I never got to know about it and gained nothing by continuing a fight that under normal conditions would have never gotten to that point. I know how to handle my planes by now. The only think i need or want to learn is how to avoid those situations.
The other point is that telling someone you (and I dont mean you personally) that you had a shot and passed after he kills you, will lead to nothing good. Dont tell him. Show him by shooting him
While I agree with you Ded I also think there's a gray area that you can't define with your philosophy. I didn't watch the film yet so I can't comment on it, but the gray area of shot selection will vary on two factors: 1. Your personal definitions of a legal shot and 2. The formality of the duel. I guess 3. could be internet latency but It's not as variable as the above two. I think most disputes (Including mine and Shane) was due to the conflict of "The Gray Area".
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Witout watching the film Bat, if I did mess up and you had the shot, you should have killed me. That would have been my expectation. I think my point should be easy to understand. I have nothing to gain by not getting killed in that situation. If I messed up, I never got to know about it and gained nothing by continuing a fight that under normal conditions would have never gotten to that point. I know how to handle my planes by now. The only think i need or want to learn is how to avoid those situations.
The other point is that telling someone you (and I dont mean you personally) that you had a shot and passed after he kills you, will lead to nothing good. Dont tell him. Show him by shooting him
rgr Ded i understand what you are saying completely. I geuss I am 'clearly not trying to improve my flying' :D see sig quote.
Sometimes when fighting you i do wish you would take it a bit easier on me though, we don't have to use every fight as hardcore MA realism training sessions.
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rgr Ded i understand what you are saying completely. I geuss I am 'clearly not trying to improve my flying' :D see sig quote.
lol, dweeb :P That is not what I am saying at all. I am just explaining my point of view and why I play the way I do. It does not make yours wrong.
Sometimes when fighting you i do wish you would take it a bit easier on me though, we don't have to use every fight as hardcore MA realism training sessions.
All you have to do is say it at the beginning. Remember when you would ask for BBs only? If I know in advance I have no problem with it.
These arguments start because the expectations are not set. As I said, telling someone after the fight that you (again not you personally) held fire or was trying something different, just does not look good.
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While I agree with you Ded I also think there's a gray area that you can't define with your philosophy. I didn't watch the film yet so I can't comment on it, but the gray area of shot selection will vary on two factors: 1. Your personal definitions of a legal shot and 2. The formality of the duel. I guess 3. could be internet latency but It's not as variable as the above two. I think most disputes (Including mine and Shane) was due to the conflict of "The Gray Area".
Not really. To me, what I want from a fight, is very clear. I want to get shot when I screw up. It is the only way to know I screwed up. In my case it is very important since I will give shots or try to make the other guy that he may have one to get them to go for it while I try to set up mine. Not getting killed, gives me a false sense of success in doing something that did not work.
And to be clear, I don't take those "questionable" shots. If you think I did, I might have made a mistake or lag made you think I did. I don;t do it on purpose. However, you show your belly trying to get an advantage on the turn, it should be only be fair that you pay for it. And really, I had a lot of people call a canopy shot for 30 degrees or more questionable. Comon now :lol If anyone wants a fight until we are on each others six say so. Don;t wait until a few deaths before you mention anything. (YOU meaning, anyone, not you personally)
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it's all in the context of the purpose of the fights. i'd be easier on someone learning a new plane to give them the chance to stay in air and learn the finer nuances. If i took a semi-vet and went 1 on 1 in a plane they were learning... they'd barely learn anything because they'd die... repeatedly, and relatively quickly.
so instead of looking at it as a "duel" look at it from a "learning/teaching" perspective, as some have already remarked upon.
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These arguments start because the expectations are not set. As I said, telling someone after the lesson that you (again not you personally) held fire or was trying something different, gives an opportunity for a continued/new experience.
fixed :aok
i guess i credited grizz with being able to take my inference. I guessed wrongly. no big. i've always said it was all on me and never criticized taking the shot - just made sure he was aware they were deliberate gimmes.
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it's all in the context of the purpose of the fights. i'd be easier on someone learning a new plane to give them the chance to stay in air and learn the finer nuances. If i took a semi-vet and went 1 on 1 in a plane they were learning... they'd barely learn anything because they'd die... repeatedly, and relatively quickly.
so instead of looking at it as a "duel" look at it from a "learning/teaching" perspective, as some have already remarked upon.
I am talking about me shane. I do the same when I fight someone new. But, and ask anyone I ever helped, I have never told anyone "I let you stay alive, or that I went easy on them"
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I am talking about me shane. I do the same when I fight someone new. But, and ask anyone I ever helped, I have never told anyone "I let you stay alive, or that I went easy on them"
i don't doubt you. All depends on who it is from *my* perspective. I think Sunbatt summed it up pretty well from "the other side" of my guns in regards to what I'm saying.
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never mind lol
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in the MAs, I will take ANY shot, except the HO. My only exception to this rule is in a 1vMultiple, in which case I will take any shot offered, including a HO, since quickly eliminating your opposition is key in these situations.
So
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in the MAs, I will take ANY shot, except the HO. My only exception to this rule is in a 1vMultiple, in which case I will take any shot offered, including a HO, since quickly eliminating your opposition is key in these situations.
Sol
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psssttt.... MA is ------->
DA <----- is where we are.
:aok
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wow 10 pages wtg
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Shane: DOH! I must have misread it! was scanning the forums while I am at work waiting for a virus scan to finish on this server.. so not really reading in depth.
In the DA, same applies, 1v1 a true duel, i will NOT HO. However, sometimes my squad participates in squad duels, where we divide ourselves up into a many vs many, in THAT case once we pass (clean pass no HO) anything goes.
Sol
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Not really. To me, what I want from a fight, is very clear. I want to get shot when I screw up. It is the only way to know I screwed up. In my case it is very important since I will give shots or try to make the other guy that he may have one to get them to go for it while I try to set up mine. Not getting killed, gives me a false sense of success in doing something that did not work.
And to be clear, I don't take those "questionable" shots. If you think I did, I might have made a mistake or lag made you think I did. I don;t do it on purpose. However, you show your belly trying to get an advantage on the turn, it should be only be fair that you pay for it. And really, I had a lot of people call a canopy shot for 30 degrees or more questionable. Comon now :lol If anyone wants a fight until we are on each others six say so. Don;t wait until a few deaths before you mention anything. (YOU meaning, anyone, not you personally)
Yeah every fight we have and every shot you have ever taken on me was 100% valid and your shot standards I agree with 100%. I know you don't take "questionable" shots. Who defines questionable though? What about a shot that is just on the cusp of what your opinion of "questionable" is or perhaps maybe even bleeding into your "valid" range? My point was that each player has their own opinion on what warrants a valid shot and I'm glad that mine and yours are similar. It's a fuzzy gray area, not a fine line separating valid shot and cheap shot obviously. I'm getting rudder pedals for Christmas so hopefully we can have some more good fights in the near future Ded. I need to work on my rolling scissors! <S>
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I want to get shot when I screw up. It is the only way to know I screwed up. In my case it is very important since I will give shots or try to make the other guy that he may have one to get them to go for it while I try to set up mine. Not getting killed, gives me a false sense of success in doing something that did not work.
Just last night I ignored dedalos coming by as I was watching a 109 that I mistakenly thought was heading straight at me. I was also checking back at dedalos as he was making a long slow E conserving turn onto my 6....... oooo look at the pretty tecersssssss BOOM!.
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I know you don't take "questionable" shots.
I do. Look bellow.
What about a shot that is just on the cusp of what your opinion of "questionable" is or perhaps maybe even bleeding into your "valid" range?
In that case, and not saying that I always follow what I am about to say, get a new plane and try again. You can pretty match tell if the guy is doing it on purpose after a few fights. In that case, stop fighting him or try to learn how to avoid that situation. It is good practice any way since that is what you will encounter in the MA.
For the most part when I do it, the other guy was either turning faster than I thought so when I started firing it was a 40 or 30 degree angle but by the time they exploded it was close to HO and they chose to remember that, I might have made a mistake and got trigger happy, believe it or not the bad guy did the same to me in fight prior to that, Lag ect.
The general rule is that they can do it to you but god forbid you fire at them while they are looking up at you :O Some people think that if they can see you, you took a questionable shot.
My experience with dueling has been that everyone tries to pull as hard as they can to get into a HO situation in order to avoid getting shot so you get merge after merge in a HO situation hopping you avoid the collision until the rolling starts. Very easy to make a fight go long at that point since both guys are out of e and barely can keep their planes flying. Advantage in that situation comes in inches at a time.
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Just last night I ignored dedalos coming by as I was watching a 109 that I mistakenly thought was heading straight at me. I was also checking back at dedalos as he was making a long slow E conserving turn onto my 6....... oooo look at the pretty tecersssssss BOOM!.
The low 38 over the trees? :rofl I was like WTH is he doing? He knows I am here. I was so sure I was getting set up I almost hit the trees looking all around me :lol
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My experience with dueling has been that everyone tries to pull as hard as they can to get into a HO situation in order to avoid getting shot so you get merge after merge in a HO situation hopping you avoid the collision until the rolling starts. Very easy to make a fight go long at that point since both guys are out of e and barely can keep their planes flying. Advantage in that situation comes in inches at a time.
That's one grievance I have with the "meet on the deck" duel. Obviously it is a pure fight with dueling rules. But...it sets up an unrealistic MA scenario where 2 planes have the same alt and same E coming into a fight (where both pilots know relatively how fast the other plane is going) and it forces ho merge after ho merge. I'd prefer to get 2-3k also to begin a fight so you can at least mix it up a little bit and have some alt to play with.
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The low 38 over the trees? :rofl I was like WTH is he doing? He knows I am here. I was so sure I was getting set up I almost hit the trees looking all around me :lol
:rofl
BTDT :aok
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That's one grievance I have with the "meet on the deck" duel.
i agree, which is why i always go for at least 2k above the base alt... i'd go 3 or 4, but know most duelers will whine about it.
They're missing out on yet another variable that the "higher" alt provides - the vertical downward that provides more options with the merge. You go too far down, and the other guy still have plenty of E to sit above you if he chooses.
I fail to see why all duels should be "pull stick to tummy and hold as long as possible," regardless of the planes.
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i agree, which is why i always go for at least 2k above the base alt... i'd go 3 or 4, but know most duelers will whine about it.
They're missing out on yet another variable that the "higher" alt provides - the vertical downward that provides more options with the merge. You go too far down, and the other guy still have plenty of E to sit above you if he chooses.
I fail to see why all duels should be "pull stick to tummy and hold as long as possible," regardless of the planes.
:O We agree! Let me get your take on this scenario also... I think dueling is silly when the opponent goes straight loop,loop,loop/stallout. I also don't see how to defend against that unless you mirror his moves and then inch out the advantage. It also sets up a 3rd merge where you go directly head on and stare him in the face going 80 mph, it's just silly. It's also a silly MA strategy since 1) In a fight with more unknowns than in a controlled dueling environment, you might get absolutely waxed doing that if your opponent has more E than you anticipated or less E and gets a good shot on you and 2) It doesn't promote the 'quick kill'. I am guilty of it sometimes when I duel to mix it up I guess but its applications aren't always relevant in the MA.
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That's one grievance I have with the "meet on the deck" duel. Obviously it is a pure fight with dueling rules. But...it sets up an unrealistic MA scenario where 2 planes have the same alt and same E coming into a fight (where both pilots know relatively how fast the other plane is going) and it forces ho merge after ho merge. I'd prefer to get 2-3k also to begin a fight so you can at least mix it up a little bit and have some alt to play with.
Noooo, try to learn to avoid it. It is possible. Not always, but thats the learning thingie I am talking about ;)
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Actually I think any "for real" duel should start at 8k over the hard deck....