Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on January 01, 2009, 03:52:35 PM
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Below you will see a couple of charts I made today to distract myself from a slight New-Year's hangover.
For the first chart, I've always wondered what ENY would look like if it were based on something a little more objective than a gut feeling or ad-hoc judgment. So I grabbed that stats from December's tour, and came up with a way to calculate ENY based on the frequency of use and effectiveness of each aircraft. The formula is like this:
36.63/(% of total kills+deaths x K/D ratio)
36.63 was chosen because it gives an ENY of 20 to the average %totalkills/deaths x the average K/D ratio. The results show how little use and what little success a lot of our aircraft have in the late war main arena, almost to the point of absurdity. If a floating ENY system were put in place, re-calculated at the end of every tour, the bottom performers' popularity for perk farming would immediately reduce their ENY after one or two tours.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/3157559984_bccdd3290f_o.png)
My other charts show perked aircraft and vehicles, specifically, they are ranked according to an estimated cost per kill. That is, how many perks the average player spends on that aircraft or vehicle to get one kill:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3294/3156728435_6b190f865c_o.png)
Clearly the Spitfire XIV and T-34/85 should either cost less, or the price of other aircraft and vehicles should be increased.
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I'm at 15 kills and 1 death in the Spit XIV over the last two days. That's only $1/K and I should be at 0 deaths as I augered on my own.
Clearly the XIV is flown by n00bs.
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I've done something like this just for my personal curiosity. The problem you run into is twofold.
1) Some planes, especially those launched from CV's (ie: Spit V, F6F, Zeke's etc.) and those Jabo's used in Bish kiddie zerg-horde, "Hey mom look at my base count!" (ie: P38s, Ponies, Typhoons etc.), missions, are extremely overrepresented statistically far beyond their actual involvement in normal day to day, strictly air to air, combat operations in the MA.
In order to really have an analysis of this type mean anything the first step would be to be able to parse those statistics as to how they were scored, either fighter or attack. For the purpose of proper ENY vs. planes you'd just use the Fighter sorties and for the vs. Objects the Attack sorties. Of course, some will score a sortie as attack even if not ground pounding and vice-versa, but it would go a long way to make this chart more meaningful.
2) The K/D of certain planes are heavily skewed for three main reasons in certain planes.
a) Name recognition; every noob in the game recognizes the plane and learns AH flying it because they saw how great it is supposed to be on the History Channel. Thereby skewing its K/D far lower than it otherwise would be if it were based upon its actual relative performance compared to the rest of the plane-set and handled by proportionately more veterans.
b) Some planes no noob has likely ever heard of prior to AH are so incredibly "hyper-modelled" that they quickly decide that it will be their "training-wheels" ride (ie: La7, Niki, etc.), thereby skewing its K/D far lower than it otherwise would be if it were based upon its actual relative performance compared to the rest of the plane-set and handled by proportionately more veterans.
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c) Planes that are otherwise lackluster in a variety of key ways, appeal to incredibly experienced and seasoned vets, for various reasons, who's combat efficiency surpasses what the average person in that same plane would be capable of exponentially...Thereby skewing its K/D far higher than it otherwise would be if it were based upon its actual performance relative to the rest of the plane-set and handled by a more ubiquitous demographic of players, including noobs.
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I've done something like this just for my personal curiosity. The problem you run into is twofold.
1) Some planes, especially those launched from CV's (ie: Spit V, F6F, Zeke's etc.) and those Jabo's used in Bish kiddie zerg-horde, "Hey mom look at my base count!" (ie: P38s, Ponies, Typhoons etc.), missions, are extremely overrepresented statistically far beyond their actual involvement in normal day to day, strictly air to air, combat operations in the MA.
In order to really have an analysis of this type mean anything the first step would be to be able to parse those statistics as to how they were scored, either fighter or attack. For the purpose of proper ENY vs. planes you'd just use the Fighter sorties and for the vs. Objects the Attack sorties. Of course, some will score a sortie as attack even if not ground pounding and vice-versa, but it would go a long way to make this chart more meaningful.
I actually like that ground pounding is included in these results, as ENY is not supposed to only reflect air-air ability. For example, the F4U-1D has a much lower K/D ratio than the F4U-1A, but still ends up with a lower ENY because of its high use.
2) The K/D of certain planes are heavily skewed for three main reasons in certain planes.
a) Name recognition; every noob in the game recognizes the plane and learns AH flying it because they saw how great it is supposed to be on the History Channel. Thereby skewing its K/D far lower than it otherwise would be if it were based upon its actual relative performance compared to the rest of the plane-set and handled by proportionately more veterans.
b) Planes no noob has every heard of prior to AH are so incredibly "hyper-modelled" that they quickly decide that it will be their "training-wheels" ride (ie: La7, Niki, etc.), thereby skewing its K/D far lower than it otherwise would be if it were based upon its actual relative performance compared to the rest of the plane-set and handled by proportionately more veterans.
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c) Planes that are otherwise lackluster in a variety of key ways, appeal to incredibly experienced and seasoned vets, for various reasons, who's combat efficiency surpasses what the average person in that same plane would be capable of exponentially...Thereby skewing its K/D far higher than it otherwise would be if it were based upon its actual performance relative to the rest of the plane-set and handled by a more ubiquitous demographic of players, including noobs.
To that I say, "let the chips fall where the may!" ;) This ENY system is not an attempt to objectively reflect all aspects of aircraft performance. Rather, it creates a scheme from frequency of use and k/d, and it's my hope others would agree that's an improvement over gut feeling and ad-hoc judgment.
Edit: it's also important to point out that these values are not set in stone, but would change from tour to tour. What they might look like after 5-10 tours is likely much different than what we see above.
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What happened to number 41 on the chart?
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What happened to number 41 on the chart?
Nice catch! There should be 54 total, not 55.
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What happened to number 41 on the chart?
Night has attention to detail :aok
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Here's another way to calculate ENY based on the same principles but with more familiar results:
(35/[(% of total kills+deaths)(k/d ratio)]^2+1)+5
This way the data shown in the original chart has been squished to asymptotically approach 40 and have a minimum value of 5.
Rounding off the results, here's a little chart that compares what ENY would be with how HTC has it now:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3085/3159254368_3a03b8a0f3_o.png)
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Are you seriously considering dropping the P38J's ENY to 7? :rofl
Few fly the G so it is a non issue.
The L is often flown by ground pounders/base takers and suffers a higher loss rate.
The majority of the P38 sticks fly the J making it appear it is much better than it really is.
Bah, it doesn't matter anyway... Vanscrew has a better chance of losing his virginity than this ENY system has of being implemented.
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Your second chart looks much better than the first, but there are also some strange results.
Basically if certain AC types have a (percieved?) better model available, the usage of the "lesser" model drops dramatically, much more than the deficite (if there really is any) in perfomance should suggest. I dont know if there should be any ENY bargains that only get there because thier usage is low.
Here are some examples:
F4U-1 (31) vs. F4U-1A (8)
I really dont see why someone should earn almost 4x the perks just for choosing the F4U1 instead of the -1A. There is so little difference in overall performance between the two (except popularity).
P-51B (28) vs. P-51D (5)
Same as above. Is mainly the lack of 2 x .50s worth almost 5x the amount of perks? I think no.
La-5 (34) vs. La-7 (7)
While the La-5 may be down on on speed and firepower on the 7, again, getting almost 5x the perks for nearly the same effort seems far off the scale.
Here some other "oddities", also caused by the lack of usage:
Ta152 (25)
P-47D25 (30)
P-47D11 (36)
P-38G (37)
IMHO, I think that the factor of usage has too much weight in your formula. But on those planes that share a high usage, the chart looks quite good.
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Nice approach with a lot of brain work ...
... but unfortunately the propesed ENY list is not better, more reasonable or even "fairer" than the current one. Actaully it's much worse. Indeed you are putting too much emphasis on "usage" as a simple determining factor for setting ENY.
For example, the A6M is suddenly ENY 9. A perfect turner, but considering it's slow speed and extreme vulnerability, it's more a target than a killer. The reason that it's getting a comparatively high usage is simply the fact that it's a CV plane which get (as Zazen already showed) a disproportional high "usage" because of the very short disnatnces they have to cover before getting into action.
And while I do have the feeling the Ta 152 deserves a somewhat higher ENY than 5, a value of 25 is more than a tad too much for a fast plane with one of the deadliest gun packages in game (and of course, that's true for the 47N too) ;)
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I agree that there are some distortions. The funniest one is the P-38J; the sapp nutjobs have artificially pushed it way up even though the L is the better aircraft. ;)
It's worth repeating that these values are not set in stone. Once they were put in place, player behavior would change accordingly, and in the next tour the values would be different. Eventually they would settle out into a regular scheme, but I can't predict what that would be.
As for weighting frequency of use, that is a benefit, not a detriment. :aok These criticisms that take aim at weighting use too much assume that these values would never change due to player behavior and adjustment once such a formula (or something similar) was put in place.
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As predicted by yours truly, the P-51D is unfairly at the top of the list, over planes that have a higher k/d, and are generally easier to fly, simply because everybody and his brother likes the P-51. (The fact that one is tired of hearing about the P-51D being the "best plane" on the History Channel does not justify malevolently pricing what is a mediocre plane.)
The La-7, quite possibly the 2nd best airplane in the game period and which likely deserves a perk price, is now not even ENY 5. ENY above 8. Presumably because of stats compiled mostly by noobs, veterans reserving it almost entirely for desperate base defense against bad odds.
The Typh is now basically an ENY 5 plane...'nuff said...that is one I'd put even with or slightly behind the P-51, not an uber ride in any case.
The N1K2 now is ENY 6...not as bad as the La-7 being raised to 8, but similar comments apply.
MEGA-DITTOES to Lusche about his comments as regards the Ta-152s new ENY. 45 is just as assinine as 5 is. 152 is basically a slightly slower Pony with some handling issues and big guns...
The same goes for the 47N.
A damned P-38J now stands at 8. You realize this airplane is essentially not faster than a Spit16 at typical ma alts don't you? Another inherent problem in using stats like this, it is ranked above the L, which has the same performance AND dive flaps and boosted ailerons.
The Kurt and the D9 have lowered ENY, as they should, but everybody already knew that. Once again, there are distortions though, there is no way a K-4 should have higher ENY than a Dora or a Pony, considering its utter superiority as a dogfighter.
Hell, since this Anax's idea is obviously a lead balloon and no one wants to touch anything resembling objective ENY ratings, here is my new plane: Let a council of ye Learned Elder Sticks discuss and vote on the ENYs.
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As predicted by yours truly, the P-51D is unfairly at the top of the list, over planes that have a higher k/d, and are generally easier to fly, simply because everybody and his brother likes the P-51. (The fact that one is tired of hearing about the P-51D being the "best plane" on the History Channel does not justify malevolently pricing what is a mediocre plane.)
The La-7, quite possibly the 2nd best airplane in the game period and which likely deserves a perk price, is now not even ENY 5. ENY above 8. Presumably because of stats compiled mostly by noobs, veterans reserving it almost entirely for desperate base defense against bad odds.
The Typh is now basically an ENY 5 plane...'nuff said...that is one I'd put even with or slightly behind the P-51, not an uber ride in any case.
The N1K2 now is ENY 6...not as bad as the La-7 being raised to 8, but similar comments apply.
MEGA-DITTOES to Lusche about his comments as regards the Ta-152s new ENY. 45 is just as assinine as 5 is. 152 is basically a slightly slower Pony with some handling issues and big guns...
The same goes for the 47N.
A damned P-38J now stands at 8. You realize this airplane is essentially not faster than a Spit16 at typical ma alts don't you? Another inherent problem in using stats like this, it is ranked above the L, which has the same performance AND dive flaps and boosted ailerons.
The Kurt and the D9 have lowered ENY, as they should, but everybody already knew that. Once again, there are distortions though, there is no way a K-4 should have higher ENY than a Dora or a Pony, considering its utter superiority as a dogfighter.
Hell, since this Anax's idea is obviously a lead balloon and no one wants to touch anything resembling objective ENY ratings, here is my new plane: Let a council of ye Learned Elder Sticks discuss and vote on the ENYs.
So, what you're saying is that your personal opinions about aircraft performance and ability are more important and authoritative than the judgment of the masses, especially your outlandish opinions about the P-51D. ;)
You can either be results-oriented and make decisions based on your personal judgment of a fair outcome, or you can make a decision based on a rational principle and let the chips fall where they may. The former typically uses an unjustifiable procedure to reach its conclusion and therefore undermines its conclusion. That latter uses a justifiable procedure to reach results that people don't like, but which are completely fair based on the operating principle. You'll almost always find me in the latter camp.
Still, I'm sensitive to your complaint. Here's an idea for a compromise that might make this idea more fair to you:
Take the ENY differences between my formula and what HTC has in the chart above. Rather that subtract or add the difference from what we have now, subtract or add it as a percentage each tour:
So, for example:
The P-51D ENY had a difference of 3, so we would subtract 3% of 8 from 8, which equals 7.76, and so it would not change.
The 109K-4 ENY had a difference of 10, so we would subract 10% of 20 from 20, which equals 18, which would be the new ENY, but it could still drop again the next tour.
The 152 and P-47N would both see their ENY increase to 6, but it could change the next tour.
The F4F ENY would increase 4 points to 24, etc.
Thoughts?
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The Kurt and the D9 have lowered ENY, as they should, but everybody already knew that. Once again, there are distortions though, there is no way a K-4 should have higher ENY than a Dora or a Pony, considering its utter superiority as a dogfighter.
Why do you think superiority as a dogfighter should weigh so heavily? The 190D-9 has a better K/D ratio than the 109K-4, and a bigger share of kills in the arena. Doesn't that make it the bigger threat? You seem to be insisting that we evaluate ENY on the basis of something that doesn't yield the results you think it should.
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So, what you're saying is that your personal opinions about aircraft performance and ability are more important and authoritative than the judgment of the masses, especially your outlandish opinions about the P-51D. ;)
Yes, my judgment about airplanes is likely superior to that of the masses, as is that of anyone who has been flying awhile and who is a performance stats junkie. Understand, the "masses" we speak of are not necessarily choosing the highest performing plane, but a plane they LIKE, many AH players do this or the arena would be ALL La7s, Spit16s, 109Ks and Ki-84s. This is another reason it is unfair to assign ENY values by popularity, not only may the "masses" be ignorant of each plane's potential, but they may be consciously choosing to fly something less formidable.
What is so outlandish about my opinion of the P-51? Your own chart shows it having a lower k/d than many planes with much higher ENY. As modeled in AHII, fighting at typical MA altitudes it simply is not all that great compared to many other LW fighters. The P-47N, La-7, D9, Typhoon, and 109K have their strengths and weaknesses relative the Mustang, but they all have strengths enough to make them at least as good as the Pony in the MA bnz niche.
You can either be results-oriented and make decisions based on your personal judgment of a fair outcome, or you can make a decision based on a rational principle and let the chips fall where they may. The former typically uses an unjustifiable procedure to reach its conclusion and therefore undermines its conclusion. That latter uses a justifiable procedure to reach results that people don't like, but which are completely fair based on the operating principle. You'll almost always find me in the latter camp.
Oh bloody hell Anax, rolling dice to determine ENY would be completely "fair". Making sense is more important than being fair. You can point out the flaws in a performance based approach, but they seem less severe than those of the popularity contest approach.
And if you want to continue to try a MA stats based approach like this, drop usage entirely, and add kills/sortie and kills/time to the kills/death. If there was some way to parse fighter sorties away from attack sorties, that would be good too. I'd also be in favor of using only stats from players who rank over 1000 in fighter, if that is possible.
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Why do you think superiority as a dogfighter should weigh so heavily? The 190D-9 has a better K/D ratio than the 109K-4, and a bigger share of kills in the arena. Doesn't that make it the bigger threat? You seem to be insisting that we evaluate ENY on the basis of something that doesn't yield the results you think it should.
Every single A/C in the game has at least one edge on the D9, due to its lousy turning abilities. The same can ot be said about the K-4.
Although, going your system, the D9 has the second highest k/d and thus should have the second lowest ENY. Right behind the P-38J :rofl
No, the D9 is NOT the bigger threat, it is the more popular choice for the pure cherrypick/vulch/run by which practically anything fast can acquire a high k/d. A 109K flying purely by Hartmann's dicta could rack up similar numbers.
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Although, going your system, the D9 has the second highest k/d and thus should have the second lowest ENY. Right behind the P-38J :rofl
Having the 3rd highest K/D ratio means the D9 does, all things considered, on average the third best in the arena right after the 38-J and the 152. Thus, the 3 highest ENY seems reasonable.
In contrast The Spit16 may be one of the best planes on paper, but being poorly utillized as one of the noob rides most of the time, the 16 is much less of a threat on average than the D-9.
I'd really like to see ENY being based on K/D alone, updated on a daily basis.
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Having the 3rd highest K/D ratio means the D9 does, all things considered, on average the third best in the arena right after the 38-J and the 152. Thus, the 3 highest ENY seems reasonable.
Ah Boozeman, I did not in fact notice that the 152 had the second highest k/d in the list, my bad. That said, you will notice that D9 is ranked 7th in this system, despite its high K/D, and the Ta-152, with the second highest K/D, is ranked 29th!!!! Another nail in the coffin of the idea that "popularity contest" ENY ratings will have any kind of sensible result.
I must ask if vehicle kills are considered in the k/d results shown. If so, the very high k/d of the P-38 makes more sense, instead of being a product of SAPPer skill alone.
In contrast The Spit16 may be one of the best planes on paper, but being poorly utilized as one of the noob rides most of the time, the 16 is much less of a threat on average than the D-9.
Incorrect. The fact that the Spit16 is commonly used by noobs and in desperate base defense does NOT mean it is less of a threat than the D9. The relative k/d ratios mean only that the 190 is flown in a "safer" manner by the majority who fly it.
I'd really like to see ENY being based on K/D alone, updated on a daily basis.
So let us say we have a P-38J encountering a Spit16. At MA alts, for all intents and purposes the Spit16 is as fast, turns alot better, climbs alot better, and rolls alot better. But the P-38J apparently has had a higher k/d lately, almost certainly because it is flown mostly by experts. Thus, you argue it should have a lower ENY. So you must think the guy in what amounts to the double-inferior aircraft (P-38) should get *fewer* perk points if he shoots down the Spit16 than a Spit16 driver should get for winning a fight while flying a double-superior aircraft. Madness!
At the very least kills per hour should be factored in, if one is going to go that route.
I also don't buy the idea that people looking for a perk farming bargain will shift the ENYs around much once any system like this is established. If many people are like me, they don't much care for perk rides and perk farming isn't really on the radar. No, I predict if such a system is implemented, the P-51D will retain the "popularity" title thus artificially driving a lower ENY despite its mediocrity compared to many other rides, the Spixteen, N1K2 and La will continue to be upped by noobs and lemmings, artificially raising their ENYs, the D9 will continue to be flown by dedicated cherrypickers making it look better than it really is, and the Ta-152 will continue to be an unknown quantity to most, thus artificially raising its ENY to absurd P-40esque numbers. The P-38J will continue to be flown by experts. The reward to these experts for learning their plane and flying it well? Their Mid-War plane will have one the lowest ENY numbers in the game and they will get fewer perk points for out-flying and killing hyper-modeled LW rides. I say again, MADNESS!
The ENY system we've got has oddities, but it is far and away better than the OP's proposal
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Having the 3rd highest K/D ratio means the D9 does, all things considered, on average the third best in the arena right after the 38-J and the 152. Thus, the 3 highest ENY seems reasonable.
In contrast The Spit16 may be one of the best planes on paper, but being poorly utillized as one of the noob rides most of the time, the 16 is much less of a threat on average than the D-9.
I'd really like to see ENY being based on K/D alone, updated on a daily basis.
K/D alone as the single determining factor for ENY is as flawed as pure "usage".
There are many planes out there that aren't used much, but have a very small number of very dedicated and/or good stick artificially boosting a plane's overall K/D. See the P-38J, which has the same performance as the P-38L. But a much higher K/D
Or see the TA 152 you are giving as an example. A single player can boost the K/D significantly and thus "wrek" the ENY (and perk point gain) for other players.
In Dezember, the 152 had a K/D of 1.5. Substract Snailmans stats from this, and the K/D suddenly drops to 1.34 :noid
Two players alone (Snailman & a1a1a1) are having more than 20% of all Ta152h kills, without them the K/D drops to 1.24 When M00t comes back, it will be even more drastic.
In my opinion, a single player shouldn't have such an impact on ENY that would result from this.
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As a classically trained statistician their are problems with using statistics to determine eny values. Some of those problems are data that has no meaning because we cannot determine an apples to apples comparison value, i.e. Pilot skills as it relates to usage, data issues based on a/c usage, i.e. Do we use the same measurement for a 110G-2 as we do for a Yak-9? One carries a boatload of ords, the other none. An extension of that is how k/d relates to how the deaths occurred. Do a lot of 110 kills come via Wirbelwind compared to Yak9... yes I'd reckon they do. Sample size is also a problem on its own- see last paragraph.
All of those issues have been touched on in certain ways by others here.
It is possible that there is another problem. Unless it adds bails and crashes into the deaths tally, it is missing a lot of "deaths". I feel that this would become statistically even more relevant the more an aircraft is used. This is arguably because new guys are going to log on and fly the Spit, Pony,and maybe the 109 because they have heard of those. What new guy is going to log on and up a Yak, La, C2, KI, etc? So they die again and again, many of them crashes and bails.
I like the intent of this discussion because I feel the eny system is "off". Several months ago I assembled a spreadsheet that lists most of the fighters in the game are rates them one 10 different statistical components. The data is from the docgonzo tests and does not include the P39s or the 262 and 163.
The data is then translated into z-scores which serve to make apples to oranges comparisons into legitimate apples to apples comparisons called Standard Scores. The ten data fields are: Speed ASL, <10k, >10k, Climb rates ASL, <10k, >10k, Turn radius with and without flaps, 200-300 mph acceleration, and lethality. Then those figures are added and averaged to give each aircraft a single overall score.
Using Z-scores, 0.0 is absolute mediocrity. It is also a bell curve so the further you go from zero the greater the score difference is. For example a score of .1 is not much better than 0.0, but a score of 1.1 is actually better than an increase of .1 of a point. A better way to rank them is by percentage. The sheet also does customized rankings.
Bored to tears yet?
Anax, if you are interested in seeing this and bouncing statistical ideas off me, pm me with an email addy and I will send you the sheet and instructions on how to use it. I applaud your efforts and encourage you to continue to work at it and am more than happy to help you with the statistical side of it. (as applies to rules and laws)
While I was typing this, Lusche posted another truism. The data is also thrown out by lack of popularity where a certain player(s) can skew the data. :aok
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Anax, if you are interested in seeing this and bouncing statistical ideas off me, pm me with an email addy and I will send you the sheet and instructions on how to use it. I applaud your efforts and encourage you to continue to work at it and am more than happy to help you with the statistical side of it. (as applies to rules and laws)
Thank you, I'd be happy see what you have!
All I want is improvement, and yes, I admit I can't do it alone. ;)
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Here's the same thing but over 6 months, from July through December:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/3161254087_a60c770eeb_o.png)
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Not an improvement.
The F6F is better than any unperked F4U? :huh
The Typhoon is better than the La7? :huh
The Seafire is better than fellow carrier planes the A6M5b, and F4U-1A? :huh
The P-38J is better than the F4U-1A, Ki-84, and SpitVIII? Not to mention the P-38L? :huh
The Fw-190A8 is better than the SpitIX, 109 K-4, and P-38L? :huh
The Fw-190A5 is better than the P-47N, P51B, Ta-152, 109 G-2? :huh
Speaking of Jugs, the P-47D-40 is better than the P-47N? :huh
The FM2 is better than a F4U-1, SpitV, La5Fn? :huh
The P-40E is better than the P-38G, and both P-39s? :huh
The P-40B is better than the SpitI and the 109 E-4? :huh
Come on Anax, you're a smart guy. You can't seriously believe that these results you are getting are anything but nonsense, you must see by now why I have always so strongly rejected any method that involves MA popularity.
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Are you seriously considering dropping the P38J's ENY to 7? :rofl
Few fly the G so it is a non issue.
The L is often flown by ground pounders/base takers and suffers a higher loss rate.
The majority of the P38 sticks fly the J making it appear it is much better than it really is.
Bah, it doesn't matter anyway... Vanscrew has a better chance of losing his virginity than this ENY system has of being implemented.
I guess that means I'm one of the "few".
Has an RAF, Battle of Britain ring to it doesn't it...
Never have so few been shot down by so many......over and over again!
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Maybe it is time for SAPP to fly Ta152s for a month, you'd see how flawed your setup is.
Several things should factor in when assigning ENY;
1. K/D
2. Usage
3. How the a/c fits into the MA planeset at usual MA altitude.
4. If the a/c is used properly (or improperly) in the MA.
5. If the a/c is a 'gateway' tool for those that are fairly new in AH.
__________
That said, you can move my P38J down to 5 ENY, it doesn't matter as I fly for the lowest team most of the time anyway.
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hmmmm....
The A-20 and SBD are missing? How can it be accurate with 2 of the most under rated killing machines in the game?
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Not an improvement.
The F6F is better than any unperked F4U? :huh
BnZs, it's a mistake to assume that an ENY system must represent what is "better." It might also be a mistake to assume that representing what is "better" with ENY is even desirable.
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That said, you can move my P38J down to 5 ENY, it doesn't matter as I fly for the lowest team most of the time anyway.
You guys should be damn proud of skewing my results! :lol
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BnZs, it's a mistake to assume that an ENY system must represent what is "better." It might also be a mistake to assume that representing what is "better" with ENY is even desirable.
What is the ENY system for in your opinion? I'm not sure if your view on that matter is the same as HTC's or many other player's...
I think before getting an agreement about specific ENY numbers and how they are derived, we should have an agreemant about what ENY is for in the first place ;)
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What is the ENY system for in your opinion? I'm not sure if your view on that matter is the same as HTC's or many other player's...
I think before getting an agreement about specific ENY numbers and how they are derived, we should have an agreemant about what ENY is for in the first place ;)
To be honest, I don't really know other than what's obvious. If HTC provided some criteria for how they came up with the numbers, then things would be different. For now, all I can say is that ENY is for determining how many perks you get and which aircraft are restricted when there's a numbers imbalance. ;)
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For now, all I can say is that ENY is for determining how many perks you get and which aircraft are restricted when there's a numbers imbalance. ;)
It might also be a mistake to assume that representing what is "better" with ENY is even desirable.
But should't the number the perks you get when flying a certain plane depend mostly on capability of the plane? i.e. killing the "better" plane in a "worse" one should get you more points and vice versa?
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There are many planes out there that aren't used much, but have a very small number of very dedicated and/or good stick artificially boosting a plane's overall K/D. See the P-38J, which has the same performance as the P-38L. But a much higher K/D
A good example would be the P-38J's stats for the MW arena. The P-38J has a total of 4060 kills, the most of any fighter in MW. One would think that with it being the #1 killer, it's also the most popular ride until one looks more into the stats and sees that one player is responsible for a little over 7% of those total kills.
ack-ack
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K/D alone as the single determining factor for ENY is as flawed as pure "usage".
There are many planes out there that aren't used much, but have a very small number of very dedicated and/or good stick artificially boosting a plane's overall K/D. See the P-38J, which has the same performance as the P-38L. But a much higher K/D
Or see the TA 152 you are giving as an example. A single player can boost the K/D significantly and thus "wrek" the ENY (and perk point gain) for other players.
In Dezember, the 152 had a K/D of 1.5. Substract Snailmans stats from this, and the K/D suddenly drops to 1.34 :noid
Two players alone (Snailman & a1a1a1) are having more than 20% of all Ta152h kills, without them the K/D drops to 1.24 When M00t comes back, it will be even more drastic.
In my opinion, a single player shouldn't have such an impact on ENY that would result from this.
I see your point, but then I might ask: why shouldn't have single players an impact on ENY, baleit they are puting in the efforts and also the results?
The fact that there is some "stat boosting" going on by some dedicated players, is just as important to ENY calculation, as if they were not. You cannot count them out of the equation, bacuse they are adding thier very own share to it. So, if you and a1a1a1 are responsible 20% of the 152 kills, then you are also responsible for a making the 152 a more dangerous plane on average.
So let us say we have a P-38J encountering a Spit16. At MA alts, for all intents and purposes the Spit16 is as fast, turns alot better, climbs alot better, and rolls alot better. But the P-38J apparently has had a higher k/d lately, almost certainly because it is flown mostly by experts. Thus, you argue it should have a lower ENY. So you must think the guy in what amounts to the double-inferior aircraft (P-38) should get *fewer* perk points if he shoots down the Spit16 than a Spit16 driver should get for winning a fight while flying a double-superior aircraft. Madness!
Well, if you think about it, it isn't so mad at all. As a simplyfied matter of LWA facts, as it stands now, and also backed up by the K/D ratio, a Spit16 is nowhere near that much of a threat on average as a P-38J. The reason, as you pointed out is:
P-38J = on average, highly skilled player that can get 120% out of his ride and flying smart = extremely dangerous.
Spit16 = on average, 2-weeker or dweeb, stall limiter enabled, no idea of his rides capabillities, dumb flying = easy meat.
Of course, this system fails, when, like you pointed out again, 2 players of the same skill level duke it out. But this would be a very rare occurance in the arenas and thus just a minor drawback overall.
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I see your point, but then I might ask: why shouldn't have single players an impact on ENY, baleit they are puting in the efforts and also the results?
Because it's my belief a planes ENY should reflect the capabilities of that plane rather than the fact who's flying it.
When I would take the Hurri I as my main ride in LW arena again (I already did that one tour in the past), everyone else "daring" to fly this definitely outclassed EW ride would suddenly gain significantly less perks. And only because I would have skewed the Hurri's K/D.
Sounds hardly like a fair deal to me.
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Because it's my belief a planes ENY should reflect the capabilities of that plane rather than the fact who's flying it.
When I would take the Hurri I as my main ride in LW arena again (I already did that one tour in the past), everyone else "daring" to fly this definitely outclassed EW ride would suddenly gain significantly less perks. And only because I would have skewed the Hurri's K/D.
Sounds hardly like a fair deal to me.
I see your point again, but I doubt that it will have such a large impact. I am also guilty of skewing a certain planes K/D for one tour (LWA tour 97, C202).
With my effort, the actual K/D was 0,6, without it would have been 0,48. So under a strict K/D ENY system (if calculated on a tour basis though), I would have made other 202 drivers earn 20% less perks for a tour. Honestly, if a sortie brings 10 instead of 12 perks for instance, who cares, really?
And I also doubt that deliberatly skewing certain plane K/Ds will become a popular sport. To be somewhat effective, it really needs a unpopular plane (and they are for a reason) and a lot of effort over and over again. Who wants to do that on a regular basis? And if someone would do that, would't that plane be all of a sudden much more dangerous on average than before?
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And if someone would do that, would't that plane be all of a sudden much more dangerous on average than before?
No, the PLANE will be just the same as it was before, the PILOT will be the variable. One again, I see no reason why it is anything but lunacy that you should get less perks for killing in an inferior plane simply because it is flown well by some die hard vets, more perks for killing in a superior plane that is flown poorly by noobs.
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BnZs, it's a mistake to assume that an ENY system must represent what is "better." It might also be a mistake to assume that representing what is "better" with ENY is even desirable.
Anax, the way ENY is used in the MAs is to determine how many perk points you earn for killing a given plane with your plane, and to determine which planes get taken away first to handicap the high-numbers team for side-balancing purposes. So yes, the way ENY numbers are actually used means determining which plane is better is critical.
Why don't you drop popularity entirely in your results Anax, and add kills/time in with your statistics?
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The plane does not change, only the pilot. Why allow a pilot or group of pilots to change the status of the plane? Yes, HTC could almost certainly change the ENY system for the better. But attempting to make ENY a constantly changing number according to who is flying that plane at that point in time is ludicrous and pointless. There is nothing at all to be gained by it.
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But should't the number the perks you get when flying a certain plane depend mostly on capability of the plane? i.e. killing the "better" plane in a "worse" one should get you more points and vice versa?
The burden of proof is on you here. :P I'm not saying that ENY reflecting which plane is best is a bad idea or wrong in intention, but arguing that it must be wrong is a waste of time. All I'm saying is there's lots of things that ENY could be used for; perhaps there are criteria we haven't even thought of yet that are more easy to determine and implement than "which is better," and which are useful for our purposes.
Why don't you drop popularity entirely in your results Anax, and add kills/time in with your statistics?
That would help planes like the P-51 and Spitfire 16, but the P-38J and 152 would suffer. So far as I can see, there isn't a way to see all of the personal stats we can view sorted by plane type. Is there?
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I'm just glad to see our bombers listed with your fighters.... gives me goose bumps I tell ya.
I fly for the lowest number team so I don't see what all the fuss is about eny.
A good example would be the P-38J's stats for the MW arena. The P-38J has a total of 4060 kills, the most of any fighter in MW. One would think that with it being the #1 killer, it's also the most popular ride until one looks more into the stats and sees that one player is responsible for a little over 7% of those total kills.
ack-ack
..... and another is responsible for just under 12%.
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One again, I see no reason why it is anything but lunacy that you should get less perks for killing in an inferior plane simply because it is flown well by some die hard vets, more perks for killing in a superior plane that is flown poorly by noobs.
Because if it is flown poorly, it wont get a kill despite being superior. And if the inferior plane is flown very well, it will get the kill.
Its the very same reason why the "inferior" plane (38-J) kills the "superior" plane (Spit16) at a rate of 1,78:1 in LWA tour 107.
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Because if it is flown poorly, it wont get a kill despite being superior. And if the inferior plane is flown very well, it will get the kill.
Its the very same reason why the "inferior" plane (38-J) kills the "superior" plane (Spit16) at a rate of 1,78:1 in LWA tour 107.
I'm sorry, what does that have to do with anything? Quite simply, this idea punishes *anyone* who flies the P-38J simply because many good pilots are putting up numbers in it, and rewards *anyone* flying a Spit16 because it is flown by many inexperienced players. I can't believe you think that on given sortie one should earn less perks for flying a P-38J, simply because so many good sticks fly it. And let it be known, the main reason it gets flown instead of the L is because it has cooler skins!!!
And to really drop the silly penny in the stupid machine, one could fly the slightly superior P-38L and earn many more perks.
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I'm sorry, what does that have to do with anything? Quite simply, this idea punishes *anyone* who flies the P-38J simply because many good pilots are putting up numbers in it, and rewards *anyone* flying a Spit16 because it is flown by many inexperienced players. I can't believe you think that on given sortie one should earn less perks for flying a P-38J, simply because so many good sticks fly it. And let it be known, the main reason it gets flown instead of the L is because it has cooler skins!!!
And to really drop the silly penny in the stupid machine, one could fly the slightly superior P-38L and earn many more perks.
The problem with your way of thinking is that you try to prove that it fails in terms of a certain single sortie approach (which it does, but more on it later) while I think it will work on a whole, thousands and thousands of different sorties considered.
Lets stick for the P-38J / Spit16 comparison.
You think the strict K/D ratio would reward pilots flying the 16 and punish those who fly the -J. And yes, you are right, ist does. So why is this ok?
As you already stated many good pilots push the J up the ladder, while many bad pilots pull the 16 down. This is the very standard of the LWAs and I think on one can deny this. So, should the experienced pilot in the J (arena standard) get many many extra perks for beating up a noob or a poor pilot in the 16 (also arena standard)? I say no, because it's easy and easy kills should not be rewarded. Should the bad 16 driver get lot of perks for killing a good stick in a J ? Definately! Simply because if he manages to do so, it must have been a hell of and effort, or the 38 driver screwd up - in both cases, well deserved perkies.
I can see you now arguing what would happen if 2 similary skilled pilots (non arena standard) have a go. Then most likely the Spit will be the winner and gets massive perks for a easy kill. Yes this will happen once in a while, but not on the vast majority of encounters, where the skill levels differ widely. So while it may fail in the smallest possible event, it will still work well as a whole.
But, lets say, for some strange and very unlikley reason, all of a sudden, only similar skilled players fly both the 16 and the J - then the sheer beauty of K/D strikes yet again: It balances itself all the time.
In a situation like above, the Js K/D ratio will go down just as quickly as the 16s will go up, reversing the situation. Now the superior plane has the lower ENY, just as you think it should have.
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So, should the experienced pilot in the J (arena standard) get many many extra perks for beating up a noob or a poor pilot in the 16 (also arena standard)? I say no, because it's easy and easy kills should not be rewarded. Should the bad 16 driver get lot of perks for killing a good stick in a J ? Definately! Simply because if he manages to do so, it must have been a hell of and effort, or the 38 driver screwd up - in both cases, well deserved perkies.
On the contrary, the J driver should certainly should be awarded many extra perks. The skill to defeat a superior weapon should be rewarded. It is impossible to say whether a specific encounter will involve a skilled 38J stick against a noob in a Spit16 or vis versa, whether it will be a fair fight or not. The only known in the equation is the planes themselves.
Here are the results: I don't think the SAPP'ers will quit flying their Js, so k/d would stay high. ENY numbers would punish P-38 usage even more than the difficulty of airframe itself does. Everybody else in the MA has even less reason to fly a P-38J, and more reason to stick with easier planes. Every trainer-type ride will continue to have a high ENY number artificially put upon it by noobs dying in it. So instead of perk farming in C205s and the like, experienced sticks will now be perk farming in Spit16s and La-7s. Well, you know, that is if they have no shame whatsoever.
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I can see you now arguing what would happen if 2 similary skilled pilots (non arena standard) have a go. Then most likely the Spit will be the winner and gets massive perks for a easy kill. Yes this will happen once in a while, but not on the vast majority of encounters, where the skill levels differ widely. So while it may fail in the smallest possible event, it will still work well as a whole.
But, lets say, for some strange and very unlikley reason, all of a sudden, only similar skilled players fly both the 16 and the J - then the sheer beauty of K/D strikes yet again: It balances itself all the time.
In a situation like above, the Js K/D ratio will go down just as quickly as the 16s will go up, reversing the situation. Now the superior plane has the lower ENY, just as you think it should have.
Thank you! I could scarcely have said it better myself. One more thing that could happen is that you'd see a lot more P-38Ls around with good pilots until the ENY lowered to match the rising ENY of the P-38J.
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So instead of perk farming in C205s and the like, experienced sticks will now be perk farming in Spit16s and La-7s. Well, you know, that is if they have no shame whatsoever.
Ummm, in the scheme outlined above, the Spit16 still has an ENY of 5 and the La-7 is at 7, hardly perk farming material there.
The real perk farming would be done in the P-51B, F4U-1, 152, 109G-2, La-5, P-38G, etc. All very capable aircraft that receive very little use because they have a brother that's a little stronger.
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One more thing that could happen is that you'd see a lot more P-38Ls around with good pilots until the ENY lowered to match the rising ENY of the P-38J.
Or you could see what in fact would happen, people flying what they LIKE to fly, hang the rest, as I think most of us do. Except when the ENY numbers keep them from flying their Midwar Ride in the LW MA and they have to take up a Spit16 instead. :furious
You are really comfortable in punishing people for flying unpopular, less "uber" craft and learning to handle them more skillfully than most?
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Ummm, in the scheme outlined above, the Spit16 still has an ENY of 5 and the La-7 is at 7, hardly perk farming material there.
The real perk farming would be done in the P-51B, F4U-1, 152, 109G-2, La-5, P-38G, etc. All very capable aircraft that receive very little use because they have a brother that's a little stronger.
No different than now, except the cases where under this system the stronger brother would have the higher ENY number because it gets flown into the ground by the inexpert more often. :rolleyes:
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Or you could see what in fact would happen, people flying what they LIKE to fly, hang the rest, as I think most of us do. Except when the ENY numbers keep them from flying their Midwar Ride in the LW MA and they have to take up a Spit16 instead. :furious
That could only happen if the P-38J's ENY were lower than the Spit16's.
You are really comfortable in punishing people for flying unpopular, less "uber" craft and learning to handle them more skillfully than most?
Either people fly what they want and therefore I'm not punishing them, or people are super concerned about ENY and perks and I'm punishing them. Which is it? It can't be both. That said, even if it's the latter, my ENY system would hardly punish P-38J pilots because the L would be there, sans the cool skins. ;)
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That could only happen if the P-38J's ENY were lower than the Spit16's.
Either people fly what they want and therefore I'm not punishing them, or people are super concerned about ENY and perks and I'm punishing them. Which is it? It can't be both. That said, even if it's the latter, my ENY system would hardly punish P-38J pilots because the L would be there, sans the cool skins. ;)
If I want to fly a 38J,because of cool skins or whatever reason, and can't because I'm ENYied out of it, then you are punishing me. If I overcome a more capable ride with a less capable one at all, this system frequently punishes me by awarding fewer perk points, the only tangible reward in this game. If I push up the k/d of a ride that few people fly, the system punishes me AND everyone else who decides to take it for a whirl. Punishing success, IOW.
The whole reason some of us wanted to change the system was because of oddities like this, wherein shooting down an La-7 with a Ta-152 got you the same points as shooting it down with a Spit16, or where you get more points for shooting down planes with a P-51D than a P-47N, a system that considers the 109K "inferior" to the Typhoon...I could go on. The problem is, this system is creating more oddities, not less.
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The problem is, this system is creating more oddities, not less.
Really? Let's list them and compare:
Current oddities (add "imo" to every line):
- FW-190D-9 ENY is at 15, but could be lowered to 10 or even lower.
- F4U-1D/A ENY might be a bit too high at 15. There's lots of aircraft they run-down and out-turn, and the 1D hauls lots of ords off a cv.
- 109K-4 ENY is too high.
- 190A-8 ENY is too high at 31. It should be more comparable to the 190A-5 or 190F.
- P-47N ENY is at 5, which is far too low. Should be ~15.
- 152 ENY is at 5, a lot like the 47N. Regardless, its ENY should be higher than the 190D-9.
- F4F ENY is at 20, which is too low.
- P-39 series ENY is too low.
Now, I'm sure we can find a lot of comparable oddities in the system I propose, but let's be charitable and note which ones would likely balance out after one or two tours. I'll let you fire away. ;)
Edit: use this chart that compiles the last 6 complete tours:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/3161254087_a60c770eeb_o.png)
One fix I can think of right away would be to artificially add a few points to the ENY of the cv aircraft because the cv fights skew their usage %.
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Uh, I believe I already pointed out what much of what was wrong in with this ENY chart in a post awhile back. I'll re-hit the highlights though: The F6F is above the F4U-1D, even though the F4U-1D carries two more rockets, is basically superior as a fighter, and both can take off of carriers. The Typhoon is very high on the list, above such fighters as the La7 and 109 K-4 to which it is basically inferior. The P-47D-40 is above the P-47N. The early/mid-war Fw-190 A-5 is also above the late-war P-47N, even though the A-5 is far inferior to the N in top speed, turns worse, and doesn't even haul much ordinance. The P-40E has ended up above the P-38G and P-39Q, two unquestionably superior MW planes. The P-40B has somehow even ended up above the SpitI, as has the HurriI. The Ki-61 has ended up above the La-5, the P-47D-11, the 109F-4, and the SpitV. This result is almost certainly the work of one or two players, yet here it is skewing the results.
Really? Let's list them and compare:
Current oddities (add "imo" to every line):
- FW-190D-9 ENY is at 15, but could be lowered to 10 or even lower.
- F4U-1D/A ENY might be a bit too high at 15. There's lots of aircraft they run-down and out-turn, and the 1D hauls lots of ords off a cv.
- 109K-4 ENY is too high.
- 190A-8 ENY is too high at 31. It should be more comparable to the 190A-5 or 190F.
- P-47N ENY is at 5, which is far too low. Should be ~15.
- 152 ENY is at 5, a lot like the 47N. Regardless, its ENY should be higher than the 190D-9.
- F4F ENY is at 20, which is too low.
- P-39 series ENY is too low.
Now, I'm sure we can find a lot of comparable oddities in the system I propose, but let's be charitable and note which ones would likely balance out after one or two tours. I'll let you fire away. ;)
Edit: use this chart that compiles the last 6 complete tours:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/3161254087_a60c770eeb_o.png)
One fix I can think of right away would be to artificially add a few points to the ENY of the cv aircraft because the cv fights skew their usage %.
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Ok, I've been working on a new ENY system with the help of 442w30 (brain work is his, I'm just adding to it) that is performance based. Look for it soon.
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Hell, since this Anax's idea is obviously a lead balloon and no one wants to touch anything resembling objective ENY ratings, here is my new plane: Let a council of ye Learned Elder Sticks discuss and vote on the ENYs.
No changes except:
152 to 10-12 eny
47N to 8-10
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you guys are getting stuck on finding a perfect formula, when in the mean time it's good enough to adjust a couple of the most obvious flaws, to within 5 points of what they ought to be. And you dont need stats to do this.. just fly and fight against all the planes in the planeset, enough.
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I like the idea for one reason.
It will push people out of aircraft that are most commonly flown and into new rides when they refuse to switch teams when the ENY limiter kicks in. That's what ENY means to me.
I don't really care about perk points. So that argument does not affect me. Also I have no qualms switching teams to avoid ENY problems (which neither of my rides suffer from currently anyways).
Anax's concept seems solid to me and I'm fairly sure I made a post a while ago asking about a system very similar to what he is proposing. And I'm supporting this new system even though it would probably have me switching teams more often when first implemented since my main rides are the Ki-84 (best plane in the set) or the P-38J (my favorite plane to spread parts upon the cartoon arena with).
Also, all this fuss over the P38's makes me happy. PERK THE P-38J!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl
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Sorry guys - posted in the wrong thread!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Just curious to see how a squad of +/- 20 members that fly Luftwaffe exclusively in the MA will effect these numbers.
We also rarely change countries, and ENY is not a factor if you are fond of a 190 A8 :aok.
A quick estimate for fighter time would be about 325 (+/-) hours per tour (all pilots combined) average in German Iron only.
I wonder if this would affect any projected results.
I like the idea for one reason.
It will push people out of aircraft that are most commonly flown and into new rides when they refuse to switch teams when the ENY limiter kicks in. That's what ENY means to me.
I don't really care about perk points. So that argument does not affect me. Also I have no qualms switching teams to avoid ENY problems (which neither of my rides suffer from currently anyways).
Anax's concept seems solid to me and I'm fairly sure I made a post a while ago asking about a system very similar to what he is proposing. And I'm supporting this new system even though it would probably have me switching teams more often when first implemented since my main rides are the Ki-84 (best plane in the set) or the P-38J (my favorite plane to spread parts upon the cartoon arena with).
Also, all this fuss over the P38's makes me happy. PERK THE P-38J!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl
I don't think it would affect what we fly due to the nature of our SOP for aircraft choice in the MA, but I can see what you mean :aok
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No changes except:
152 to 10-12 eny
47N to 8-10
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you guys are getting stuck on finding a perfect formula, when in the mean time it's good enough to adjust a couple of the most obvious flaws, to within 5 points of what they ought to be. And you dont need stats to do this.. just fly and fight against all the planes in the planeset, enough.
Moot, I largely agree, also the 109K and G14 and the Yak9U deserve higher ENY. But apparently "ad hoc and subjective judgments" are right out. :-)