Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: cegull on January 09, 2009, 11:36:38 PM
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Was playing a while back and got killed by bomber defensive fire from 1.5K. That's extreme-almost a mile. This happened on two occassions. At other times I was able to close in beam attacks to about D4 before getting hit. Seems reasonable. I wondered if anyone else has experienced getting smoked at 1.5K?
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lol who killed you? i got killed once from 2.5k while flying a yak-9t vs a b-24 formation but i forgot his name
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Been pinged at 1.5k, but no dmg. It made me take more time to get that much higher for that much more speed and that much more of a sharper attack angle from the high 5 O'Clock. :D
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Was playing a while back and got killed by bomber defensive fire from 1.5K. That's extreme-almost a mile. This happened on two occassions. At other times I was able to close in beam attacks to about D4 before getting hit. Seems reasonable. I wondered if anyone else has experienced getting smoked at 1.5K?
You are forgetting the fact that the bombers have laser-sighted gunsights... at least in AH... ;)
I've gotten absolutly creamed by b17's/b24's at 2.5k out... But I've learned for bombers, come in high in a ta-152, and they won't have time to shoot back. :D
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lol who killed you? i got killed once from 2.5k while flying a yak-9t vs a b-24 formation but i forgot his name
Its impossible, because 12mm have ~1500 meters range.
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lol who killed you? i got killed once from 2.5k while flying a yak-9t vs a b-24 formation but i forgot his name
You are forgetting the fact that the bombers have laser-sighted gunsights... at least in AH... ;)
I've gotten absolutly creamed by b17's/b24's at 2.5k out... But I've learned for bombers, come in high in a ta-152, and they won't have time to shoot back. :D
I think both of you need to go offline, roll some bombers, and type .target 2500 and see what happens.
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You are forgetting the fact that the bombers have laser-sighted gunsights... at least in AH... ;)
I've gotten absolutly creamed by b17's/b24's at 2.5k out... But I've learned for bombers, come in high in a ta-152, and they won't have time to shoot back. :D
funny...whern i'm flying them, they must power down the laser sights.
as for gettin hit at 2.5k? i wanna see film. i've watched a guy shooting at me from that distance, and also watched his tracers drop off, and never even reach me.
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Its impossible, because 12mm have ~1500 meters range.
but then, 12mm is smaller than 50 cal.......
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Ummm...bullets going backward...you going FORward....
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I dont even think of shooting before 1,000k. Theres no point wasteing ammo when simple turns will protect you better from such long range fire. In KI-67s I dont shoot till 800 out, and would probably be better off holding off until then in every bomber. The only thing I use long range fire for is for lead according to fighters speed. While I have splashed fighters at 1,000k, most of all Spits, I'll bet most are splashed at 400 to 600k.
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I dont even think of shooting before 1,000k. Theres no point wasteing ammo when simple turns will protect you better from such long range fire. In KI-67s I dont shoot till 800 out, and would probably be better off holding off until then in every bomber. The only thing I use long range fire for is for lead according to fighters speed. While I have splashed fighters at 1,000k, most of all Spits, I'll bet most are splashed at 400 to 600k.
if you're using the N key to fire all the guns on all the buffs.....i think they converge at 500 yards.
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LoL at 2.5k kill claims.
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1.5K shots happen all the time. 1.5k is about the closest I get to bombers before my attack. Anything closer to that is a pretty easy shot depending on the cons angle of attack.
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1.5K shots happen all the time. 1.5k is about the closest I get to bombers before my attack. Anything closer to that is a pretty easy shot depending on the cons angle of attack.
i've never been hit any farther out than 1k. i stalk em at around 1.5, and try to set up a pass.....then i die. :rofl
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Lag anyone?
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Lag anyone?
no thanks......i couldn't eat another bite.
:rofl :noid
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You are forgetting the fact that the bombers have laser-sighted gunsights... at least in AH... ;)
I've gotten absolutly creamed by b17's/b24's at 2.5k out... But I've learned for bombers, come in high in a ta-152, and they won't have time to shoot back. :D
You are so wrong. The buff gunsights are not laser-sighted. The principals taught at the WWII aerial gunnery camps applies here. If one takes the time to study the WWII manuals and practice applying what is in them then one can become quite accurate with the guns.
http://www.oldmanuals.com/gunnery.htm is a good place to start. I bought the CD sometime ago and the principals taught in it work in AH. BJ229R understands it. There are a few forces at work here.
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Strangely, one can't become quite so proficient (as in easy-peasy shoot-downs from 1.5 out) with wing- or fuselage-mounted guns.
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I'm not sure what everbody else does but in order to conserve i usually start shooting at 600 out, but also is dependent on how fast the victim is coming in......also dependent on multiple enemy and your SA.
<S> 999000
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I'm not sure what everbody else does but in order to conserve i usually start shooting at 600 out, but also is dependent on how fast the victim is coming in......also dependent on multiple enemy and your SA.
<S> 999000
Pffftt..what does HE know :salute
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You are forgetting the fact that the bombers have laser-sighted gunsights... at least in AH... ;)
But I've learned for bombers, come in high in a ta-152, and they won't have time to shoot back. :D
Unless, of course, you are facing a grizzly old skeet and sporting clays shooter like me. :D
I've always had a fondness for those high incomers ............. :lol
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dependent on how fast the victim is coming in......
:rofl :rofl :aok
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Lag anyone?
Exactly. He was probably closer to 1k than 1.5k when he died.
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You are so wrong. The buff gunsights are not laser-sighted. The principals taught at the WWII aerial gunnery camps applies here. If one takes the time to study the WWII manuals and practice applying what is in them then one can become quite accurate with the guns.
http://www.oldmanuals.com/gunnery.htm is a good place to start. I bought the CD sometime ago and the principals taught in it work in AH. BJ229R understands it. There are a few forces at work here.
You are so right. A more fun way to practice is to get a shotgun and shoot a sporting clays course that has a good high tower incoming station. You will then get a target much like a fighter diving down on your bomber.
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Its impossible, because 12mm have ~1500 meters range.
tracer range is about 1500 metters ammo flys 3000 metters also remember plane attacking bombers 6 is flying into rounds 1.5 out means ammo flew less than 1k distance unless plane was exactly same speed.
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Time to pull out the Cheese
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Lag anyone?
That's exactly what I have been thinking. I rarely fire if more than 1000 yds out.
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I try not to shoot until 800 or under. But I always try for 400 or less to start. Plus, it's usually not me flying, just me in the guns. So if you shoot too soon, they get pissed that you ran out of ammo. :D That right there's good enough reason to wait!
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tracer range is about 1500 metters ammo flys 3000 metters also remember plane attacking bombers 6 is flying into rounds 1.5 out means ammo flew less than 1k distance unless plane was exactly same speed.
Proof? Try Larry's suggestion (6th post).
Also do some math and find speed difference planes must have to decrease bullets path from 1.5 to 1.0. M2 has ~900m/s muzzle velocity.
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I try not to shoot until 800 or under. But I always try for 400 or less to start. Plus, it's usually not me flying, just me in the guns. So if you shoot too soon, they get pissed that you ran out of ammo. :D That right there's good enough reason to wait!
Assuming you're in buffs, that's all well and good Txmom. Still though many lob those potatoes from around 1000 yds and some even further out. So you have to fire at least 1000 yds out. Not that it will necessarily kill them but you will probably take out a gun or two or maybe even get some oil on their canopy.
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.50 Cal/12.7mm round
Maximum Range 7,440 yd (6,800 m)
Maximum Effective Range Area Target: 2,000 yd (1,830 m)
Point Target: 1,640 yd (1,500 m)
Still the same today as it was back then...... mostly because its the same weapon..
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This extraordinary range thing makes me wonder if somebody has figured out how to turn .30cal/.50cal rounds into 37mm. So much for realism. It is a fun shootin- em up though. As far as real life stuff goes, I was reading Adolf Gallands book which states that some German pilots started shooting at 700meters when attacking B17's and about scored 2% hits. 500 rounds , 10 hits. I don't think an F86 with radar controled sights could hit another plane at 1500 meters let alone a tail gunner with iron sights.
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I tap people all the time from 1.5k. Believe it! Some of you already know this.
That 9 guy can probably do it too. I've heard he is a decent shot.
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max effective range for the m2(5o cal) is 1830 meters, if that helps..
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i missed your post..Airborne... :salute
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That 9 guy can probably do it too. I've heard he is a decent shot.
What an understatement. :eek:
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:D
What an understatement. :eek:
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When I first started flying bombers I could not hit anything with guns and so I did some reading on this BBS. I found a post where hitech said ballistics are not calculated beyond 1.7 range. I just tried to find the post but couldnt.
The idea that a bomber could travel 500 yards before a bullet would hit someone chasing from the rear is not accurate obviously. From the front you could attack and start shooting at 2.2k and turn off right at 1.5k and the bomber will take hits though probably not lethally.
Even 999000 can be killed with proper attacks as I know from first hand experience. He is one of the better shots but not invulnerable.
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This extraordinary range thing makes me wonder if somebody has figured out how to turn .30cal/.50cal rounds into 37mm. So much for realism. It is a fun shootin- em up though. As far as real life stuff goes, I was reading Adolf Gallands book which states that some German pilots started shooting at 700meters when attacking B17's and about scored 2% hits. 500 rounds , 10 hits. I don't think an F86 with radar controled sights could hit another plane at 1500 meters let alone a tail gunner with iron sights.
I guess you need to catch up on some reading about the .50 cal round ... and understand the closing rate of a .50 cal that has been fired at a plane that is going 300 mph and coming directly at the .50 cal round.
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It's true, I've been shot down once or twice.
Even LLogann can be killed with proper attacks as I know from first hand experience. He is one of the better shots but not invulnerable.
:D
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It's true, I've been shot down once or twice.
:D
... and yet I never heard of you.
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I don't think an F86 with radar controled sights could hit another plane at 1500 meters let alone a tail gunner with iron sights.
This is a strange statement because many of the encounters I've read in Korea are about U.S. pilots in F-86s getting hits and kills from 1500 yards out and I always thought it odd that our range seems to "end" at 1,000 yards.
I've also read that Germans used cannon for their additional effective range, IE. being able to fire from outside the defensive range of the bombers.
Who is wrong here?
wrongway
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The F-86 could hit targets at 3000 yds (cant speak of effectiveness at that range or whether it ever did hit planes at 3000 yds) but much higher then AH aircraft fly. The F-86 used armor piercing incendiary rounds but the incendiary design was based on magnesium that burned poorly at the altitudes the Sabre sometimes was engaged at. The gunsight on the Sabre was less difficult to use for ranged shots on a turning fighter then the P51Ds K-14 sight with the Sabre sight being faster to stabilize.
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Chalenge ...please don't tell them how to make me an easy kill!!!
<S> 999000
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No fun in that! :D <S>
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My firing pattern differs depending on aircraft, closing speed and angle. Closing fairly fast with a good cannon-equiped plane, I'll fire a very short, single station ranging burst at 1000m, then another again at 800m, setting up for the devastating, all-station long burst(s) at 600m or less. Given that most aircraft have wing mounted guns and a convergence setting maximum at 650d, (which is usually set shorter than that in fighters), you can hold your full fire until 600m without taking too much damage unless the fighter pilot is really, really good at killing buffs. And if he's that good, he probably isn't attacking from the rear aspect.
If it's a 110, Mossie, or even a Typhie (with four Hispanos like the Mossie), I'll definitely shoot seriously, sooner. I never give the 110 with four 20mm's and two 30mm's a chance to set up a steady long distance shot at 1K, which with all centerline cannons and a decent pilot, can hit quickly and hard. And they can be a tough kill themselves.
Typically though, if any fighter tries to attack a U.S. heavy bomber from the rear aspect, they have one wing already tearing loose and fluttering to the ground, even though they don't yet know it. :aok
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.50 Cal/12.7mm round
Maximum Range 7,440 yd (6,800 m)
Maximum Effective Range Area Target: 2,000 yd (1,830 m)
Point Target: 1,640 yd (1,500 m)
There are multiple kinds of .50 rounds. Make me wonder if this was for a sniper rifle's casing. Having no knowledge on this subject, there's nothing behind it...just curious.
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There are multiple kinds of .50 rounds. Make me wonder if this was for a sniper rifle's casing. Having no knowledge on this subject, there's nothing behind it...just curious.
no, the barret with a match round can fire beyond this; this data is for the M2 (Ma-Duece) .50 cal (the asme machinegun from WWII, same build, etc...) while the rounds are different, they have to a close degree, the same ballistics. The new .50's are reaching further due to advances in the bullets themselves, not so much the weapon.
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There's "actual physical range" where the bullet still travels, then there's "effective range where you can realistically expect to hit anything."
While the 50cal round can physically penetrate 2x 1/2 inch steel plates 3 feet apart from each other at a mile out, there's no way this can be done other than with a sniper rifle, a steady prone firing position, a well marked target, a non-moving target, and a highly advanced optical scope. Oh, and only with 1 round, not a machine gun firing 600 rounds a minute.
The realistic effective range of 50cals on armed WW2 aircraft was 300 yards (most "killing" combats being far closer than that). Many things including dispersion of the rounds, vibrations of the gun, the wings of the plane, turbulence of the air, the shaking of the gunsight, human error, imaccuracies in the gun mount or optics, means that the way AH bombers are modeled is way way above and beyond their historical capabilities. A good portion of this is the fact that bombers in AH fly with 1/4 fuel, meaning they fly faster and climb faster than historically, and that they run at full throttle, reducing closing speeds of most attackers to less than 50mph, where historically attacking fighters had several hundred MPH with which to make slashing attacks.
So, even though it's not a total fix, if there was some way of slowing bombers down in this game to historic levels, that would go a long way to reducing the 1.7k hits they seem to get so frequently. The guns themselves could use some tweaks too, but this would solve a lot of problems.
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My firing pattern differs depending on aircraft, closing speed and angle. Closing fairly fast with a good cannon-equiped plane, I'll fire a very short, single station ranging burst at 1000m, then another again at 800m, setting up for the devastating, all-station long burst(s) at 600m or less. Given that most aircraft have wing mounted guns and a convergence setting maximum at 650d, (which is usually set shorter than that in fighters), you can hold your full fire until 600m without taking too much damage unless the fighter pilot is really, really good at killing buffs. And if he's that good, he probably isn't attacking from the rear aspect.
If it's a 110, Mossie, or even a Typhie (with four Hispanos like the Mossie), I'll definitely shoot seriously, sooner. I never give the 110 with four 20mm's and two 30mm's a chance to set up a steady long distance shot at 1K, which with all centerline cannons and a decent pilot, can hit quickly and hard. And they can be a tough kill themselves.
Typically though, if any fighter tries to attack a U.S. heavy bomber from the rear aspect, they have one wing already tearing loose and fluttering to the ground, even though they don't yet know it. :aok
what about if an IL2 is attacking with 2x 37's? lol, I actually found myself co-alt with lancs at 7k today while flying to CAS against attacking GV's at our Vbase, and a quick burst (2 rounds, 1 ea. gun) dropped the tail off the lancs..... the last lanc was difficult, as it started to pull away in a dive, but i did snap his wing off. lol was a fun trip, well worth the long flight in an il2
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There's "actual physical range" where the bullet still travels, then there's "effective range where you can realistically expect to hit anything."
While the 50cal round can physically penetrate 2x 1/2 inch steel plates 3 feet apart from each other at a mile out, there's no way this can be done other than with a sniper rifle, a steady prone firing position, a well marked target, a non-moving target, and a highly advanced optical scope. Oh, and only with 1 round, not a machine gun firing 600 rounds a minute.
None of this (with the exception of the gun and the modern .50 cal round) has anything to do with whether the round will be effective ... it has everything to do with "if" you will hit the target.
The realistic effective range of 50cals on armed WW2 aircraft was 300 yards (most "killing" combats being far closer than that). Many things including dispersion of the rounds, vibrations of the gun, the wings of the plane, turbulence of the air, the shaking of the gunsight, human error, imaccuracies in the gun mount or optics, means that the way AH bombers are modeled is way way above and beyond their historical capabilities.
Depends upon the application of the gun ...
A "mounted" .50 cal gun ...
The M2 has a maximum range of 7.4 kilometers (4.55 miles), with a maximum effective range of 1.8 kilometers (1.2 miles) when fired from the M3 tripod. In its ground-portable, crew-served role as the M2HB, the gun itself weighs in at a hefty 84 pounds (38 kg), and the assembled M3 tripod another 44 pounds (20 kg).
Not sure what exact mount was used in bombers, but it would be safe to say that they were "mounted" and why would the effective range on a .50 cal mounted in a bomber be any different ?
Mounted in an airplane ...
From World War II through the Vietnam War, the big Browning was used with standard ball, armor-piercing (AP), armor-piercing incendiary (API), and armor-piercing incendiary tracer (APIT) rounds. All .50 ammunition designated "armor-piercing" was required to completely perforate 0.875" (22.2 mm) of hardened steel armor plate at a distance of 100 yards (91 m), and 0.75" (19 mm) at 547 yards (500 m).
Most people who die to (and whine about) the AH bombers from 800-1.2K out are the ones that sit on the bombers direct six and fly straight and level thinking they are safe.
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Most people who die to (and whine about) the AH bombers from 800-1.2K out are the ones that sit on the bombers direct six and fly straight and level thinking they are safe.
^ what he said. Most people climb up a buffs 6. Best attacks are 10 oclock -> 4 oclock or 2 oclock -> 8 oclock slashes. If you actually aim at the buff you're doing it wrong. You should be slashing through the formation firing ahead of the buff before you even get him in your gunsight. At such angles/speeds you make a very difficult target.