Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: moot on January 20, 2009, 04:23:33 PM
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Just a fluke?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3535/3213958178_3492c33424_o.png)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7TVIFWAU
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It's happened to me many times.
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:cry :cry :cry :cry
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Bug of some sort I'd say given how fragile Spitfire wings always are when I shoot them or get mine shot.
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That happens once in a blue moon for me. I think it's lag or rubber bullet syndrome. Another common occurrence is the tater hitting the engine block which sometimes just kills the engine.
*EDIT* oddly enough, after reviewing the film, I didn't see a tater hit the spit16 at all, looked like it was only bb's.
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I'm a mongolian troll.
Messiah - I saw the hit sprite when it happened. Taters killing the engine has always been the normal result, as far as I remember. These last few years though, engines will take a couple of seconds to die, which is strange since no oil leak that I've ever experienced was that quick.
Anyway, this isn't the first time me or someone else has brought this up. I'm just posting it for reference and probably will post more of em here if they happen.
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This is the same aircraft/person:
First pass..... If I am not mistaken, resulted in both 20mm and 30mm hits on the wing. The hit sprites certainly suggest that this was so.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/Aces%20High/152fightersweep06.jpg)
This was a matter of seconds later after having manevered in behind the 190.
I had to hammer the absolute bejesus out of it too.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/Aces%20High/152fightersweep07.jpg)
To the game's credit, I aimed poorly and hit the other side of the aircraft on the second dip but it didnt' half take some punishing. I wasted a lot of ammo on that kill.
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that 30 looks like it hit the tail it should have brought it down i also think they have changed some of the damage models because it seems that planes soak up more damage even 109 will take a good 2 burst from hizookas to bring them down
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Highly annoying, happened to me a number of times as well. Unfortunately I rarely film so I've never had the opportunity to send a film of it to HTC. Much more annoying was having the same thing happen to me with the 37mm in the p-39's.
I wonder what the cause is, since from everything I have learned over the years the server keeps sending hit info to your CPU until you receive it. Can packet loss get to the point it's so bad that some hits are lost? Is there another cause? Who knows, hopefully hitech and pyro can figgure something out from the film.
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I would love to see the giver and receivers film. I don't doubt for a second that these screenies show 30mm hits but maybe they get lost in translation, just internet lag?
Although I don't fly tater planes often i've had similair scenarios where I have pasted someone with good hits and seen them fly on with no apparant critical damage from the kind of shots where I know they should be in the tower. I always put that down to dodgy connection.
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Sometimes I fly a P47 and set the convergence to the dreaded "big wall of ugly" as I heard some one call it.
I am amazed when at 400 a plane flys through it and not one round hits the plane. :O It has happened numerous times. Not a whine just funny as all. Kinda like sticking a shotgun against a tin can and none of the shot hitting. :lol
As others mentioned. Probably internet lag and other factors involved. No big whoop. I'll get'm next time. :aok
WT
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Here, let me post my own: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mzoww03jmoj (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mzoww03jmoj)
It's not a problem of packet loss; I was even credited with the assist! :lol I also have a great connection to HTC since I moved to Indiana. I'm yet to have someone call me out as a warper, and I don't think I've discoed more than two times since August.
It's suspicious that the target aircraft here are either Spits or 190s, because every time I've seen a fighter shrug off a tater it's been a Spit or 190. :noid
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ya know... I'm sure a Spitfire took a 30mm round or two in the real deal and kept flying.
I sometimes wonder why people make a big deal out about a tool of war not working %100 of the time when in fact... they didnt. Stop and think just how ofter a soldier got shot and kept going. Stop and think how many AP rounds a tank (any tank) shrugged off even though it was "inferior" in armor protection. Stop and think just how much open airspace there is in an airframe and how easily a round can pass through without damaging anything vital. Sometimes armor actually did its job. Sometimes the wound isnt enough to stop the soldier.
Now... stop and think as to how often a 30mm hits and doe nothing... it is rare. So...
Shrug it off to realism or lag and move on to the next taget. It has happened to us all. ;)
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ya know... I'm sure a Spitfire took a 30mm round or two in the real deal and kept flying.
I sometimes wonder why people make a big deal out about a tool of war not working %100 of the time when in fact... they didnt. Stop and think just how ofter a soldier got shot and kept going. Stop and think how many AP rounds a tank (any tank) shrugged off even though it was "inferior" in armor protection. Stop and think just how much open airspace there is in an airframe and how easily a round can pass through without damaging anything vital. Sometimes armor actually did its job. Sometimes the wound isnt enough to stop the soldier.
Now... stop and think as to how often a 30mm hits and doe nothing... it is rare. So...
Shrug it off to realism or lag and move on to the next taget. It has happened to us all. ;)
The voice of reason. :salute
There are so many variables at play here that it could be anything. Impact angle, stress on the airframe @ time of impact (provided HTC models that), etc. Even when one knows all the parameters, damage tolerance analysis is still somewhat statistical in nature, and sometimes even with a tater, things just don't break like you'd expect.
Kind of reminds me of the time at the Battle of the Bulge when the GI looked up from reloading his bazooka (he was alone) to find himself looking directly down the muzzle of a Tiger II at CLOSE range. Both fired at the same time. He woke up in an aid station minus a large piece of his skull. The Tiger's crew never woke up at all.
Point is... nothing's guaranteed, no matter how big your gun is.
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As far as I know, a hit is a hit in AH. I've never seen a dev update mention they'd added shallow hits, or rounds passing thru added to the DM. There's no mitigating effects that I know of, only multipliers.. Stress on airframe, impact velocity, previous damage... So the issue isn't about attitude, it's about something bugging out somewhere in the game or network. That's why I'm curious.
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ya know... I'm sure a Spitfire took a 30mm round or two in the real deal and kept flying.
:rofl
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/206/469646329_dee07050e0_o.jpg)
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ya know... I'm sure a Spitfire took a 30mm round or two in the real deal and kept flying.
This one sure didn't.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/206/469646329_dee07050e0_o.jpg)
:noid
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pwnd.
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pwnd.
Hardly. He said that some spits probably took 30mm hits and lived. Can you prove him wrong? Do you live in Widewing's basement, with complete access to his mountains of data? This image certainly verifies the lethality of a 30mm hit. Can you prove that ALL 30mm hits were fatal? I doubt it.
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Hardly. He said that some spits probably took 30mm hits and lived. Can you prove him wrong? Do you live in Widewing's basement, with complete access to his mountains of data? This image certainly verifies the lethality of a 30mm hit. Can you prove that ALL 30mm hits were fatal? I doubt it.
Burden of proof.
Certainly I cannot prove that all hits were fatal, but asking me to prove him wrong is silly, like asking me to prove that dinosaurs didn't dance.
The shells sometimes failed to detonate, which is not accounted for in AH. However, unless it only sheared off a wingtip, the kill rate for a 30mm detonation on a Spitfire would likely approach 99.9%. That's my educated guess based on multiple examples of photographic evidence, and the Luftwaffe tests that showed 2-3 30mm hits would bring down a B-17.
You're missing the point that in AH when a Spitfire takes a 30mm and survives it takes no damage whatsoever.
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You're missing the point that in AH when a Spitfire takes a 30mm and survives they take no damage whatsoever.
Not arguing that at all. My point was that SmokinLoon made a valid assertion, and shouldn't be rediculed for it.
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My point was that SmokinLoon made a valid assertion
"At least one Spitfire survived a 30mm hit" may be a logically valid assertion, but its statistical relevance is almost zero.
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"At least one Spitfire survived a 30mm hit" may be a logically valid assertion, but its statistical relevance is almost zero.
Statistically no, but his statement is still valid. He wasn't "pwnd".
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Look at this to see a real world example of a Spitfire taking a Mk108 hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek&NR=1
Shrug it off? Don't think so! :D
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:rofl I thought I was pwn'ing treize because I put up the picture first.
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:rofl I thought I was pwn'ing treize because I put up the picture first.
Doh! Peace then. :salute
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The only way a spitfire could survive a 30 mm hit imo would be if it did not explode but either got lodged in the airframe or passed right through. I for one wouldn't want to fly around with a live 30 mm in the wing. :D
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:rofl I thought I was pwn'ing treize because I put up the picture first.
Where? I didn't see it.
And might want to actually say something instead of assuming everyone on this thread knows what you mean with your dorkspeak.
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Where? I didn't see it.
And might want to actually say something instead of assuming everyone on this thread knows what you mean with your dorkspeak.
Oh jeez, it was a joke treize. I just thought it was funny that you and I put up the same picture and pretended that I was being triumphant. Lighten up.
As for 30mm hits, this is the one where he didn't even take damage:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3444/3216227416_49764e8fcb_o.png)
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gav, you can't catch a break. :)
From the look of that hit, I'd say the upper half of the pilot should beat the rest of the plane to the ground by at least 20 sec.
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Now you see what I mean? And SmokinLoon's argument does not apply here because what he suggests is not part of the model (realistic misfires on impact), not the issue (my attitude), and not a solution (ignoring the problem).
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Can packet loss get to the point it's so bad that some hits are lost?
Hit packets can be delayed but never lost.
Once again read what I said, every hit sprite of a 30mm causes damage just like any other bullet.
How much damage depends on range/speed and where hit on the plane.
For a bullet not to do damage to a plane after a hit sprite 1 of 2 things would have to happen.
1. The shooter gets discoed.
2. The shootie gets discoed.
Other than that there could only be a delay in the damage do to droped packets, but those droped packets will arive, and nothing else on that channel including text messages and lots of other stuff can arive can arive until the hit message does.
Is basic TCP networking things must arive at the procedure in the order sent and can not be lost with out the entire connection being lost.
HiTech
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Now you see what I mean? And SmokinLoon's argument does not apply here because what he suggests is not part of the model (realistic misfires on impact), not the issue (my attitude), and not a solution (ignoring the problem).
Loon's argument was regarding real world behavior, where anything can and will happen. In that context I still agree with him. However, if damage in AH is modeled as simply as you guys say, and I have no reason to doubt that it is, then this is bullsh*t.
What attitude moot? :)
Hit packets can be delayed but never lost.
Once again read what I said, every hit sprite of a 30mm causes damage just like any other bullet.
How much damage depends on range/speed and where hit on the plane.
For a bullet not to do damage to a plane after a hit sprite 1 of 2 things would have to happen.
1. The shooter gets discoed.
2. The shootie gets discoed.
Other than that there could only be a delay in the damage do to droped packets, but those droped packets will arive, and nothing else on that channel including text messages and lots of other stuff can arive can arive until the hit message does.
Is basic TCP networking things must arive at the procedure in the order sent and can not be lost with out the entire connection being lost.
HiTech
I wonder if the same applies to UDP. Although faster, UDP doesn't offer the inherent hand-shaking of TCP.
Then again, think how much it would suck to disco just before the 75mm from your B-25H tags that 262 that just blew by you. :(
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:rofl
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/206/469646329_dee07050e0_o.jpg)
Yea... IIRC The round was suspended inside and then detonated. Not exactly combat conditions. But I agree there is something to be investigated with the 30mm+ rounds.
I say this because Ive torn off mustang wings with one trigger pull from a hurri D... and that is AP.
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Murdr I'm pretty sure the spit16 walked off with a fuel leak.
Cthulhu, that's what the DM is like as far as I know. I've never seen the devlog on it and would be glad to have a clear correction/understanding of it.
Bronk, there's a MK108 trial video out there, where you see a hit on a static (mossie?) RAF fighter's wing. The explosion isn't as gory as the above pic, but it's almost as effective. The bullet comes in from dead six or so, and makes a big crater. ... http://youtube.com/watch?v=nPWlYhfhLrI
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I remember that post, thanks for putting it up Murdr. It still is curious though, how can a spitfire survive a 30mm impact if that is true? Even more curious are the instances of shooting fighters only using the 37mm cannon in the P39Q and having the same no effect from the hit.
If it's not packet loss there has to be something else going on to cause it. It's not a huge deal as it doesn't happen very often, but like moot I've always been bugged by it.
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I'd like to get some clarification on the behavior of UDP "hit packets". As I understand UDP, the packets are simply bundled off to the server with no verification (response from the server) that they ever arrived. (unlike TCP with it's "I sent something, did you get it?"... "No I didn't"... "Ok, I'll send it again" behavior.) I'm hardly a network guy, but this does have me wondering. Could UDP packet loss (server to victim) conceivably allow only the shooter to see the hit?
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I was in TCP, no doubt about that.. I looked at the film again and there's a 20mm hit right around the firewall section of the fuselage. Could this have damaged one of the fuel tanks? Otherwise there's definitely damage recorded from the 30mm.
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I'd like to get some clarification on the behavior of UDP "hit packets". As I understand UDP, the packets are simply bundled off to the server with no verification (response from the server) that they ever arrived. (unlike TCP with it's "I sent something, did you get it?"... "No I didn't"... "Ok, I'll send it again" behavior.) I'm hardly a network guy, but this does have me wondering. Could UDP packet loss (server to victim) conceivably allow only the shooter to see the hit?
I'm pretty sure that both protocols are normally running during game play. That is why you can be flying and observe other players maneuvering (UDP for location/speed/heading/status data of players) without seeing any warps, while simultaniously text may lag by several seconds (TCP for text/hit packets/other data). This is most pronounced when a "won the war" happens, and all text and damage may lag for several seconds.
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As for 30mm hits, this is the one where he didn't even take damage:
Unless that was AH1, you didn't hit him with the 30mm, the hit sprite is all wrong.
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Unless that was AH1, you didn't hit him with the 30mm, the hit sprite is all wrong.
Watch the film. I only fired 30mm. In fact, you can see the hub gun firing in the screen shot.
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I have a film hitting a Ki84 with 2 taters; one killed his engine and the other removed his rudder and 1 aileron.
I'd post the film but the HD with all my films is dead. :cry
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Watch the film. I only fired 30mm. In fact, you can see the hub gun firing in the screen shot.
Why is it showing the non tater hit sprite?
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Why is it showing the non tater hit sprite?
I don't know. :noid
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I was in TCP, no doubt about that..
Meant to say i was in regular mode, not the backup one you get with an orange message.
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Cool. I'm going to start flying the Spud retardant Spit XVI... oh... wait.
<--- off to dance with a dinasaur.
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I think I still have my film
I hit a spitfire with the 40mm on the hurr-d
I only fired the 40mm at around 200 and hit him dead center
and he flew away fine
I got a assist later on when someone else killed him lol
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You weren't firing the 303s at all?
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40 mm is ap , punches big holes but no boom. Thats why I am always surprised when I pluck wins off with em.
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Cool. I'm going to start flying the Spud retardant Spit XVI... oh... wait.
<--- off to dance with a dinasaur.
If it's a purple dinosaur you are scaring me MORE than normal BE..... :huh
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I've also hit a spit in the cockpit with a tater, high deflection up real close as we were scissoring. I saw the hit sprite, he received no damage when I asked him.
Funny how the same 30mm once blew my own 262 up, I was going vert and put 30mm's into the fuselage of a bomber from nose to tail. Passed very near his tail and I just blew up outta the sky. There was no "You have collided" message and he did not fire on me nor did I receive a "Killed by player" message. This same 262 death was never recorded on the score page, though I lost the perks still! :furious Unless an exploding plane can cause damage? If not it was my own 30mm's blowing me up.
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No damage could be packet loss. The question is if taters can truly hit and not take a wing off. And if possible, figure out if it's normal for planes to take a tater in the nose and have the engine seize only after a few seconds; which would mean there's something newer than the "normal" instant engine death or 1+ minute death by oil leak.
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It would be one thing if they caused some damage, but in every case I've asked the guy I was fighting if he took any damage or even heard the hit. Every time he's said no hit or damage. Something's buggy.
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It would be one thing if they caused some damage, but in every case I've asked the guy I was fighting if he took any damage or even heard the hit. Every time he's said no hit or damage. Something's buggy.
Then why do I get an assist when he dies?
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Where did the 30mm hit in this case? There has to be one way or other to remove any doubt that the 30mm caused registered damage but didn't do (what we're considering) normal damage, i.e. a wing off, or an engine kill, or a pk depending on where it landed. The only fuzzy aspect I expect is some planes only getting oil leaks from a tater in the engine (tough ones like the 47 or hogs), or non-fatal rudder/vstab damage on hits to one side of the tail (in the 38 or 110).
Unless someone can say they've always had planes take these hits and shrug it off more than once every 50 times, since 2000 or so. I know that in my experience this apparent fluke has only been going on for the last 3-4 years or so. A tater to the engine before then would always kill it instantly, and a hit anywhere in the wing would at best break the wingtip, and at worst take the whole wing off. I have never seen first hand an oil leak that takes only a few seconds to run out.
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Hi guys, in 12 hours I'll post my evidence that there is a bug in AH related to 30mm. Where the bug sits, the FE, network, damage model, it cant be said by me. Could be anything.
What if I fired 30mm from a Me-262 and lit up a lancaster like a Christmas tree and he kept flying?
Evidence will be posted!
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The potential problem with such evidence is that a target like the B24 can soak up a number of 30mm before showing damage. Whereas fighters have a lower damage threshold, so you can clearly tell if something's amiss and/or rule it out, like network issues (e.g. packet loss). With a Lancaster taking more hits than it should, half the bullets may be lost in packets, and the other half totaling less than the damage threshold.
The best evidence of all that something's really wrong is a single 30mm hit where the target flies off with no visible damage, and later gives an assist. As far as I understand.
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I have one of those. A 37mm right into the spinner of a spit16, no leaks, nothing.
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Did it give you an assist later, or something to show it wasn't just a lost packet?
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Happened to me twice in the last 2 weeks, once on a Hellcat and once on a Spit 9, I'll go and dig up the films, Both times It was a 6 shot from less than 200 in the vertical.
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The 30mm "dud" has to be isolated for the evidence to be solid..
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Happens to me all the time now. Obvious 30mm fireball, whether it be on a wing or tail etc. I'm sure I have half a dozen films of this. Just have to find them.
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Here is my evidence that something is not set correctly regarding 30mm. I dont know what it might be, it could be as simple as a damage value needing to be higher in the 30mm or lower in the target. My expectation is that hits in certain areas should do enough damage to destroy the structural integredy of the airframe. 30mm fired from a Me-262.
(http://www.brendanpoga.com/machinima/Image2.jpg)
(http://www.brendanpoga.com/machinima/Image3.jpg)
(http://www.brendanpoga.com/machinima/Image4.jpg)
(http://www.brendanpoga.com/machinima/Image5.jpg)
(http://www.brendanpoga.com/machinima/Image9.jpg)
(http://www.brendanpoga.com/machinima/Image10.jpg)
Here is the film, in a .zip file. Action is at 20 minutes.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tjzmzh3tzg5 (http://www.mediafire.com/?tjzmzh3tzg5)
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Here is the film, in a .zip file. Action is at 20 minutes.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tjzmzh3tzg5 (http://www.mediafire.com/?tjzmzh3tzg5)
Edit your film to only include the action sequence. I know I sound lazy, but doing us that favor is so easy it's actually you that is lazy. ;)
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I highly doubt the issue is duds included in the modeling.
I rather think it's a specific angle/speed/range combination that returns a variable damage number that doesn't induce damage.
Call it a fluke and move on.
If anyone is willing, I'll gladly go to the DA to research and send an email to HiTech saying "Hey Dale, check this out- if you're attacking a spitfire 16, doing 250mph, he's doing 200, and you hit him with a tater in the wing root at an AOT of 45, with his wings rolled 90 degrees, damage that should be happening is not."
That's really the ONLY way we're EVER gonna isolate this. The data is being sent and received just fine. It's the math in the middle yielding a weird result (my personal bet would be a neverending whole rather then a decimal figure) that throws the DM for a loop, and says "You scratched his paint, nothing more."