Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Saxman on February 06, 2009, 12:03:29 PM
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Posting this here after remarking on the thread about Wirbleweasels under furballs on the main board.
Over 3500 M16 MGMCs were produced by the US during WWII. That's 35 times the number of Wirblewinds, and as much as 70 times the number of Ostwinds. Yet especially since the WW arrived, the M16 has virtually disappeared from use.
Perk the WW and Ostie. There's already been precedents set towards perking aircraft on rarity, and the effectiveness of the WW has proven its performance warrants it.
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Perk the WW and Ostie. There's already been precedents set towards perking aircraft on rarity
A way which, if it ever really existed at all, has been abandoned when the TA-152 was unperked despite it's incredibly rarity.
Also I very much dispute the effectiveness of the Ostie and to some extend, the Wirbel too.
They are helpless vs any tank, and completely uneffective if the enemy aircraft doesn't play their game. that is: staying away and dropping a bomb from altitude.
And you really can't put the Ostwind in the same league as the Wirbel.
However, I am very much for a considerable reduction of Wirbel's ENY for various reasons.
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Keep them unperked but make the wirbels ENY 5. IMO the wirbles guns are way to accurate. Set up a target and fire the osti at it. Its dispersion is big and its a single 37mm with a pretty slow rof. Do the same thing with the wirbel and watch how tight the dispersion is with four 20mms with high rof. I think that much fire power would make the wirbel parts shake and make aiming it a little more difficult then it is now.
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Saxman, you make a valid point with the numbers, so how about this. Limit the number of WW, and Osties in an arena based on player numbers? Not sure if it would even be possible, but just a passing thought. Could even limit the numbers that up from a given base.
MW for example, limit number of uppers to 2 of each from each base, heck I would even like to see the tiger fall under that rule in MW. As I said just a thought.
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Saxman, you make a valid point with the numbers, so how about this. Limit the number of WW, and Osties in an arena based on player numbers? Not sure if it would even be possible, but just a passing thought. Could even limit the numbers that up from a given base.
That would lead to many additional insults and infights on range vox & countrychannel. "N00bs" taking a GV getting yelled at for "wasting resources" - "Get out, you suck, Im better in this" and so on.
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I still think a perk of 5 would work. I mean seriously, guys that KNOW how to shoot and actually aim right HAVE the perks to get it. This also keeps the tards that are new and know nothing about them, OUT of them. It's easy to get 5 perks in a GV, tell them to go kill a town and you've got perks for a Wirble. This helps flyers know that mainly, the guys that are in them actually know how to use them.
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If there were a way to code it:
Make it so the wirbel costs perks when you spawn it, but it's free at your own base. As the anti-vulching vehicle extraordinaire, it has a legitimate place in the game... but for griefing air-air fights right next to the defender's base it is inappropriate.
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It's easy to get 5 perks in a GV
This also keeps the tards that are new and know nothing about them, OUT of them.
If its easy to get five perks then it wont stop people from using them. Perking them is dumb because Iv had the turret knocked out by a single .50 from a jeep. How would you like it if you were in a 262 or temp and got killed by a single .50 cal. I already know someone is going to say something about a pilot kill. Lets face it, aiming for or hitting something as small as a pilot that's going 400mph+ and something as big as the turret of the flacks that go 25mph are two different things.
Because they were so rare and because the wirble is used so much compared to the osti how about limiting the wirble to medium and large airfields?
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If the Whirbelwind is perked HTC should add a quad 20mm truck that is unperked. The Germans used them in large numbers. The only part of the Whirbelwind that is rare is the tank chasis and turret armor. The guns are not.
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Seeing a quad 20mm on an unarmored truck would be a WELCOME change from the stampede of WWs. It wouldn't really be much different from taking on an M16 (I can just pop them from 3k out with the pumpkin chucker).
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If the Whirbelwind is perked HTC should add a quad 20mm truck that is unperked. The Germans used them in large numbers. The only part of the Whirbelwind that is rare is the tank chasis and turret armor. The guns are not.
I also like this idea.
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If the Whirbelwind is perked HTC should add a quad 20mm truck that is unperked. The Germans used them in large numbers. The only part of the Whirbelwind that is rare is the tank chasis and turret armor. The guns are not.
Hey, that's a pretty good idea :aok
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5 eny on the ww and I'm good.
Slightly OT.
Lusche were you not stating some time ago you feel WW traverse speed is too fast?
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A small perk is good i guess, the major problem with the WW is the fact you can spew a unlimited amount of spray into the air, have a jeep resupply you, and literaly fire for 5 minutes or more.
What the thing needs is a "brake" inbetween the clips that held the 20mm rounds, it was not belt fed and as such should not fire all 3200 rounds 24/7 none stop, that is insanely dumb.
Heck if it has even a 1-2 second reload between burst's that will limit its effectiveness, make it historic and force a not needed perk system to it. :Edit: Altho i now question how many 20mm each clip held.
Yeah, this is going to happen. :rolleyes:
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A small perk is good i guess, the major problem with the WW is the fact you can spew a unlimited amount of spray into the air, have a jeep resupply you, and literaly fire for 5 minutes or more.
What the thing needs is a "brake" inbetween the clips that held the 20mm rounds, it was not belt fed and as such should not fire all 3200 rounds 24/7 none stop, that is insanely dumb.
Heck if it has even a 1-2 second reload between burst's that will limit its effectiveness, make it historic and force a not needed perk system to it.
Yeah, this is going to happen. :rolleyes:
that is a very good idea because each gun would have had 4 20mm clips per gun
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5 eny on the ww and I'm good.
Slightly OT.
Lusche were you not stating some time ago you feel WW traverse speed is too fast?
Yes. The whole turret was hand cranked and rotated at 27°/s. Our WW in AH2 rotates with ~60°/s, which was only achieved in prototypes with a hydraulic system, which to my knowledge had never been in serial production.
Also we have a to high ROF. Sustained fire was only possible when firing two barrels at once, while the other two were reloaded by the crew at the same time. The gunner could either fore both pairs at once (max ROF) and then wait until new mags had been inserted, or alternately shooting with one pair for sustained fire at half ROF.
Even just adjusting the turret rotation speed (would be easier to do than adjusting ROF/reload considerations) would reduce notably WW's effectiveness as an AA vehicle.
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Have any idea how many 20mm each clip held?
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Yes. The whole turret was hand cranked and rotated at 27°/s. Our WW in AH2 rotates with ~60°/s, which was only achieved in prototypes with a hydraulic system, which to my knowledge had never been in serial production.
Also we have a to high ROF. Sustained fire was only possible when firing two barrels at once, while the other two were reloaded by the crew at the same time. The gunner could either fore both pairs at once (max ROF) and then wait until new mags had been inserted, or alternately shooting with one pair for sustained fire at half ROF.
Even just adjusting the turret rotation speed (would be easier to do than adjusting ROF/reload considerations) would reduce notably WW's effectiveness as an AA vehicle.
You know..If the WW was speced to this, I'd see no need to even adjust eny.
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Have any idea how many 20mm each clip held?
Each clip = 20 shots. Stored in the turret were 16 magazines (8 on each side, see the racks on picture below) = 320 rounds. The rest was carried in the hull, handed up to the loaders by the radioman.
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4964/wwammorackya9.jpg)
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The reduce turret rotation would make a BIG difference. As it stands, even working in pairs coming from opposite directions trying to strafe one WW with heavy cannon fire is suicidal for BOTH because of how quickly the WW can switch targets.
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Lusche:
Is there anything you DON'T know? :)
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Lusche:
Is there anything you DON'T know? :)
Ever noticed I stay out of almost all technical discussion about specific planes on this BBS because of my somewhat superficial knowledge on details & engineering? That I'm not posting in any threads about aerodynamics or ACM? Almost no word from me operational history of Allied forces & equipment? That I never argue with Widewing not because I always agree, but because he's mostly talking about things I don't even knew they existed? ;)
In this case, I just happen to have a very detailed book about the Wirbelwind. That's all. :D
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Ever noticed I stay out of almost all technical discussion about specific planes on this BBS because of my somewhat superficial knowledge on details & engineering? That I'm not posting in any threads about aerodynamics or ACM? Almost no word from me operational history of Allied forces & equipment? That I never argue with Widewing not because I always agree, but because he's mostly talking about things I don't even knew they existed? ;)
In this case, I just happen to have a very detailed book about the Wirbelwind. That's all. :D
Well I can guarantee this one thing: you know a HELL of a lot more than I do
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Each clip = 20 shots. Stored in the turret were 16 magazines (8 on each side, see the racks on picture below) = 320 rounds. The rest was carried in the hull, handed up to the loaders by the radioman.
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4964/wwammorackya9.jpg)
Jeez. Either one of these changes would limit it's effectiveness and use. I've noticed whenever I go to pork a Vbase, just one con, there seems to be 5 wirbles sitting there ready to spray at me.
Even a 1 second pause in between each clip would be nice. That or the lower ROF. Even that, or the traverse speed being lowered. Any one of those, pretty please?
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Jeez. Either one of these changes would limit it's effectiveness and use. I've noticed whenever I go to pork a Vbase, just one con, there seems to be 5 wirbles sitting there ready to spray at me.
Even a 1 second pause in between each clip would be nice. That or the lower ROF. Even that, or the traverse speed being lowered. Any one of those, pretty please?
Somehow I doubt we will see any modification in the near future. Reload times for clip firing weapons aren't modeled in planes either, and I'm aware that there might be some more extensive coding necessary to implement such a thing.
Concerning the turret traverse rate, I'm afraid I (or someone else) would have bring some original documents as a source, not a book, however credible and well documented it may seem to be.
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Concerning the turret traverse rate, I'm afraid I (or someone else) would have bring some original documents as a source, not a book, however credible and well documented it may seem to be.
How did HTC arrive at its current traverse rate? For such a specific topic it's very unlikely your book is based on different sources than what HTC used.
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How did HTC arrive at its current traverse rate? For such a specific topic it's very unlikely your book is based on different sources than what HTC used.
I vaguely remember one American publication wrongly stating "powered traverse" for the Wirbelwind, which seems to have spread. You can find that claim on a few sites on the web.
But on what base HTC did model the Wirbel I could only speculate, but I'm not interested in that.
I will see if I can dig something up myself in the near future ;)
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To clarify the turret rotation a bit:
The gun on Wirbelwind was a standard 2-cm Flakvierling 38. This gun, not being modified at all, rotated by the gunner using a hand cranker. You can even see it rotate in our Wirbelwind in game (albeit much too slow).
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9539/worbel1wi5.jpg)
The turret itself was connected to the flak gun with simply two telescopic arms and thus did "follow" the gun.
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I hope HTC is following this thread, I'm really digging the discussion and ideas.
At this point in the state of the game, Wirblewinds are so common for people to take for GV-AA that I think either something needs to be done to add more variety in GV-AA (or just less wirbles). That or I suggest considering renaming the game from "Aces High" to "Planes and Wirbles".
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If there were a way to code it:
Make it so the wirbel costs perks when you spawn it, but it's free at your own base. As the anti-vulching vehicle extraordinaire, it has a legitimate place in the game... but for griefing air-air fights right next to the defender's base it is inappropriate.
Brilliant! :aok
Or, perhaps technically easier, perk the wirbel lightly but add quad 20mm field guns. That don't go out from a sandwich being dropped on them.
Do not perk the Ostwind. Its effectiveness does not merit perking whatever its rarity may have been.
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WW is a great GV and should be perk. I been killed by them at k 1.0, and tough GVs to kill. Heck, the other night, sbout 15 of us try to kill one with what guns we had, rockets, bombs. The dam thing just wont die.
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Heck, the other night, sbout 15 of us try to kill one with what guns we had, rockets, bombs. The dam thing just wont die.
If you know how to aim those guns, rockets, bombs it will.
I <3 the WW. It is probably my main GV perk farmer. That said I fully support the idea of correcting any inconsistencies between RL turret traverse speed and ROF, and in game specs.
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If the turret speed is too fast, it should be corrected.
But I see no reason for them to be perked. Even an M-3's .50cal can take out the turret if the WW driver's attention is elsewhere. Much too fragile/vulnerable to deserve a perk.
Lowering the ENY to encourage more Osti and M-16 use would be fine, IMO.
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The only way a lower ENY will encourage a switch to the Osti or M16 is if ENY comes into effect and the WW is unavailable. Perk farming is just a bonus, the thing is just TOO damn effective.
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the thing is just TOO damn effective.
It's a GV. As such it has a top speed of about 25mph, an open turret, and it's stuck to the ground. If people can't find a way to avoid dieing to it either they are just too busy vulching to drop the vh and clean up the field, or flat out stupid.
The WW has two things it does well, protect other gv's from low level IL2 attacks, and swat down vulchtards in droves. There are very simple solutions to both these uses.
As far as the whole Wirblewind spawning under a furball whines all I can say is LMGDAO. No one (or at least very rarely) says "Hey look, there's a furball over our spawn I better get out there in a WW ASAP!". Lets take a logical look at why people end up getting whacked by WW's at a spawn.
1. Someone, or a group of someones decides to roll some armor into an enemy field(they either will take a WW with now out of foresight, or after losing a couple tanks to the IL2s).
2. People on the other side see this and decide to up IL2s and B25Hs to defend.
3. Aircraft from the aggressor country show up on site and say "Hey look, low, slow, easy meat IL2' and 25s" and down they dive.
4. Inevitably guys start upping in light fighters to get the enemy fighters that are trying to get the IL2s and 25s.
5. The guys in the fighters from #4 get whacked by a WW and then the waterworks start. :cry :cry :cry
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As far as the whole Wirblewind spawning under a furball whines all I can say is LMGDAO. No one (or at least very rarely) says "Hey look, there's a furball over our spawn I better get out there in a WW ASAP!" Lets take a logical look at why people end up getting whacked by WW's at a spawn.
Wrong again.
i spawn into A1 all the time with a WW and rack up the kills. best place on trinity to grab some kills in a WW. last tour i had about 400 kills in the WW. i would say 95% of those where from A1 on Trinity.
The funny thing about logic is that it's often contradicted by evidence.
I enjoy doing exactly what is being complained about at times.
When attacking an nme field, its nice to have a guy in a wurbl to knock off a couple of em while they are trying to gang you.
I've been shot down under the same conditions described in this thread
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lol nice pick. :aok
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Too Funny. Fly around on the deck and complain about getting hit by ground fire. Perhaps your easy kill is leading you like a lamb to the slaughter. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Sarge/Whatever_anim.gif)
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Wrong again.
Nice try, but no. Of course there are exceptions to every rule(like the occasion guy who uses a shade to drop a CV in comparison to the litany of ZOMG SPIEZZZZ!! whines).
Fights break out over spawn points because the enemy is there trying to get their armor in, not the other way around. Sure some dweebs will try and ack drag you to a WW when they get in trouble, thats not the guy on the grounds fault. I have people try and ack drag me all the time, I find breaking off to be a good way to not get 100 20mm rounds in my spinner.
Honestly if you're in an aircraft doing 300mph and cant figure out a way to not get killed by something that only goes 25mph and with most people driving it has an effective range inside of 1K that's your problem, no one elses.
Do I occasionally get caught sleeping by a flak while flying low? Sure I do, but it's a rare and when it does happen I think to myself "Doh, where is my SA". Getting shot by a WW you never saw is like getting bounced by a guy in a plane you never saw. It's your fault, not his.
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It's a GV. As such it has a top speed of about 25mph, an open turret, and it's stuck to the ground. If people can't find a way to avoid dieing to it either they are just too busy vulching to drop the vh and clean up the field, or flat out stupid.
And it's effective to the point that it has completely displaced every other vehicle with the same mission profile. It's the EXACT same thing that happened before the C-Hog was perked, and why the -4 NEEDS to be: If they weren't, that's all you'd see and it would significantly unbalance the game.
Because the turret traverses faster than it should, and because its rate and volume of fire FAR above what they were historically, (remember, the only way gunners could historically get a constant stream of fire was to only fire a pair of guns at a time) the WW has a level of effectiveness--beyond its historical performance capabilities--that fully justifies the perk.
If HTC were to adjust the turret speed to what has been suggested, or finds some way to implement the reduced rate of fire or lethality based on loading limitations (either a brief delay after 20 rounds are fired while the clips or changed out, or fire from only two guns at a time) I'd say wait and see what sort of change that makes. However as it stands right now, the WW HAS unbalanced the ground game by virtually eliminating the M16 and Osti from use.
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Again, an enemy aircraft that wasn't there can't suddenly spawn onto your 6 o'clock position. A wirbelwind that wasn't there can magically appear at any time. The inability to predict when a wirbel will spawn is about as much the pilot's fault as being born.
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If HTC were to adjust the turret speed to what has been suggested, or finds some way to implement the reduced rate of fire or lethality based on loading limitations (either a brief delay after 20 rounds are fired while the clips or changed out, or fire from only two guns at a time) I'd say wait and see what sort of change that makes. However as it stands right now, the WW HAS unbalanced the ground game by virtually eliminating the M16 and Osti from use.
I agree with these sentiments completely.
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Again, an enemy aircraft that wasn't there can't suddenly spawn onto your 6 o'clock position. A wirbelwind that wasn't there can magically appear at any time. The inability to predict when a wirbel will spawn is about as much the pilot's fault as being born.
This is true, and while I'm sure it happens, not very often. When you spawn you have to jump from the drivers position to the gunners, scan around for a target, then get the turret correctly oriented. Getting plinked by a Flak that spawns right under you is bad luck for you, and good luck for him.
I know the tone of my last couple posts has been a bit harsh, I just wanted to point out that I am making statements in general and not directing them directly at you gavagai.
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Again, an enemy aircraft that wasn't there can't suddenly spawn onto your 6 o'clock position. A wirbelwind that wasn't there can magically appear at any time. The inability to predict when a wirbel will spawn is about as much the pilot's fault as being born.
The Wirbel can only spawn at a fixed location, which is known to everyone and marked by a big arrow on the map.
You are massively exaggerating it's capacity to "ruin furballs"
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The Wirbel can only spawn at a fixed location, which is known to everyone and marked by a big arrow on the map.
You are massively exaggerating it's capacity to "ruin furballs"
Because we know everyone has their map up in the middle of a heated dogfight. :rolleyes:
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Because we know everyone has their map up in the middle of a heated dogfight. :rolleyes:
I do, and when getting close to a field or a spawn point it's part of my overall SA .. trying to know where I am and keep every possible danger in mind. When theres combat close to a spawn point, there's usually a Gv battle too, which means tanks, jabos hunting tanks, wirbels defending the tanks or looking to get to a town. Spawn points are almost never "out there" but near bases.
But more important. What area are we talking about? How many furballs are truly ruined by magically appearing Wirbels? That is the point that is grossly exaggerated. There are only single points where wirbels can spawn, almost always close to bases.
The Wirbel effect on furballs (and that's what Anaxogaras is complaining about) is basically nil. You could also complain about field ack or CV ack interference on furballs.
I have been shot down by a Wirbel while being low & slow, I cursed the lame-azz-wirbel-dweeb for it (not on any game channel though ;) ) but not even in my wildest dreams I would ever have thought to come to the BBS and demand any kind of action
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I favor a change in ENY to somewhere in the 10-15 range, but no perk. If the rate of fire and turret traverse are historically inaccurate then it needs to be corrected. I still maintain that the easiest way to deal with Wirbels is with tanks, bombs, better SA, and removal of the VH that could spawn them.
Curiosity question->Are there other vehicles or planes that have these sort of claimed inaccuracies that make them perform better than they should? If yes, then which ones?
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Perk the supply train too!! :furious
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I favor a change in ENY to somewhere in the 10-15 range, but no perk. If the rate of fire and turret traverse are historically inaccurate then it needs to be corrected. I still maintain that the easiest way to deal with Wirbels is with tanks, bombs, better SA, and removal of the VH that could spawn them.
Curiosity question->Are there other vehicles or planes that have these sort of claimed inaccuracies that make them perform better than they should? If yes, then which ones?
Pretty much all the tanks are inaccurate, for the simple reason that if you have an AP shell loaded, you can instantly change to HE and vice-versa. It also seems like the turret traverse speeds for our tanks are too fast, or were dependent on the engine power for the speed they posses in the game, etc.
In general the gv models in Aces High are nowhere close to the standard of the aircraft models, and that's why I still think this is primarily an air-combat game. If you want a tank sim, there are far better choices on the market.
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Wondering how low over a spawn some of you get anyway.
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I can't believe no one has brought this up as another power of the WW... ground capabilities. Two decent whirlybirds can drop a town in a matter of 3-4 minutes. Bring more than that and its even quicker. If you know where the town ack guns are located, you can knock them out easily enough -- then you're all set. On top of that, the ability to easily knock out soft gvs (or track hard ones) from up to 1k, and get them with some difficulty up to 1.7k or so makes it an effective ground pounder.
I think eny should remain where it is, but decrease turret speed and ROF or accuracy. This would make it slightly less potent against aircraft, towns, and soft gvs. Don't perk it though...no need to entirely deprive people of the beast. :aok
By the way, may I mention this thread has remained largely troll-free. Way to go folks :rock
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Perk the supply train too!! :furious
Dude the trains aaa is so ungodly as to be true evil, if the bases or cv fleet has 37mm HALF as good as the one's on the train, no one would ever worry about upping to defend them.
I use to hunt trains in my 39Q, nothing like cherry bombin' in at over 480mph to watch the first cannon round land right on my nose. Good fun tho.
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the first train strafing run is usually memorable
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perk wirble-no perk osti
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There are LOT of "unknowns" as to why HTC does certain things. Why in the *&^% the wirby and the osty have the SAME ENY is my first question. The wirby obviously is superior to the osty in ease of use and without looking up the numbers I can tell that the wirby is far more capable than the osty. Yeah, supposedly the osty can reach out further than the wirby but just how much further of an effective range is it and is it worth mentioning due to the fact of the rareity of success??? The osty is a distant second place to the wirby, and the M16 is a distant 3rd from the osty.
First, change the ENY of the wirby to 5, the osty to 15, and the M16 to 30 (I dont remember the M16's ENY off has, but allow the M16 to be used under most "worst" of ENY scores). The fact that the wirby and osty were so rare in WWII yes DOMINATE the AA game in the AH2 MA is annoying and not consistant with the supposedly other aurguements HTC or HTC's fanboi's have made as to how and why things are perked or are ENY scored the way they are.
Consistancy. HTC/AH2 lacks it.
(*wait patiently for the HTC backlash and lack of explination/reasoning*)
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The fact that the wirby and osty were so rare in WWII yes DOMINATE the AA game
But the Wirbel and Osty must stand in for a whole range of cannon-armed AA options that are either impractical to model or simply haven't been modeled yet.
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I can't believe no one has brought this up as another power of the WW... ground capabilities. Two decent whirlybirds can drop a town in a matter of 3-4 minutes. Bring more than that and its even quicker. If you know where the town ack guns are located, you can knock them out easily enough -- then you're all set. On top of that, the ability to easily knock out soft gvs (or track hard ones) from up to 1k, and get them with some difficulty up to 1.7k or so makes it an effective ground pounder.
You can say the same of the Osti, which was the primary town killing gv before the Wirble. The Wirble just has the spray factor going for it. Like a Yak9T vs a Jug. You can put out a greater volume of fire and hope to hit something because the greater amount of ammo is there to do it.
You also realize all the "Perk the IL2" threads there are? Seems pretty even to me.
No perks. Shoot the turrets.
wrongway
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Introduction of the wirble has made the osti totaly irrelivent, and a NON factor, truely sad really :( 10-15 points for the wirble and you'd start seeing many more ostis!
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Posting this here after remarking on the thread about Wirbleweasels under furballs on the main board.
Over 3500 M16 MGMCs were produced by the US during WWII. That's 35 times the number of Wirblewinds, and as much as 70 times the number of Ostwinds. Yet especially since the WW arrived, the M16 has virtually disappeared from use.
Perk the WW and Ostie. There's already been precedents set towards perking aircraft on rarity, and the effectiveness of the WW has proven its performance warrants it.
Agreed; but the Ostwind has a slow firing 1x37mm and is not as accurate as the Wirblewind.
Yet the wirble is quite accurate and very deadly; the armor though is THIN, i still think it should be perked (0.75 perkies)
-FYB
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But the Wirbel and Osty must stand in for a whole range of cannon-armed AA options that are either impractical to model or simply haven't been modeled yet.
Point taken. However, that doesnt hide the fact that the wirby is that much more effective than a osty, is able to take out tanks with a few seconds of fire, and level a town in pairs or with a re-supply? The wirby is the biggest bargain in gv-land. Nothing slows an advance like a circle jerk of wirbys.
Yeah, the turret can be taken out by a .50 cal from a Jeep or M3, but the turrent of the T34x can be taken out by a peasant with rock as well and the T34/85mm is perked.
Like I said before... HTC lacks ... ah Hell, who's paying attention? Stuff like this gets brought up and many people make very valid points and those points get ignored. It deosnt take weeks and weeks of coding to apply a corrected or rather "adjusted" ENY/OBJ score, etc.
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Arguments about the rarity of the Wirbelwind and Ostwind...okay AA cannons were NOT rare. AA guns mounted on a Panzer chassis were what was rare. You had lots of categories of AA guns that could be trucked around and set up wherever they were needed. HTC could model this complexity to make people feel better about the "rarity" of the Wirbel/Osti, OR, HTC can do something far simpler, and model a form of these guns already mounted to some sort of GV, which is what they did and I can't disagree.
We don't even have any heavy AA except on CVs and auto-puffy.
Examples of AA guns we could model that are "represented" by the WW and Osti at this point:
Bofors 40MM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun)
Flak 30/38
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_FlaK_30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_FlaK_30)
Oerlikon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon)
Polsten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsten)
I agree that the WW deserves a lower ENY and perhaps a light perk on account of its higher effectiveness though.
Point taken. However, that doesnt hide the fact that the wirby is that much more effective than a osty, is able to take out tanks with a few seconds of fire,
I simply haven't seen this to be true. It can track tanks at best, maybe it will take out a Panzer although I have never seen it. Effective range for a WW to track a tank is far beyond point-blank for the tank's main gun.
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You can say the same of the Osti, which was the primary town killing gv before the Wirble. The Wirble just has the spray factor going for it. Like a Yak9T vs a Jug. You can put out a greater volume of fire and hope to hit something because the greater amount of ammo is there to do it.
You also realize all the "Perk the IL2" threads there are? Seems pretty even to me.
No perks. Shoot the turrets.
wrongway
Yea I understand that wrongway, I'm just saying it's yet another aspect of the whirlybird power. Also, WW's can drop a town faster than ostis, even if less efficiently. (ammo-wise) Finally, I feel WW's are much more effective against soft GV's or the treads of tanks at distances less than 1k, due to said spray factor. Don't need to land the hits, just need to get a group of rounds close. Therefore, the average AH'er is going to have more success with the whirlybird than the osti in this role.
I never said perk the WW :)