Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Unit791 on February 11, 2009, 02:35:31 PM
-
Well I know this is mainly what draws people to the F4F and FM2, but its manuverability seems quite historically inaccurate. I seriously doubt that it could ever turn that good in real life. My wish, please make this plane more historically accurate.
-
Oy.
The F4F has earned a seriously bad rap it does NOT deserve entirely because she's not conisdered in the proper context. Please keep in mind that the F4F was predominantly flying against one of the most agile aircraft of the war. Had the F4F been measured up against the 109 instead we'd probably have a much, MUCH different picture today. In fact from the handful of encounters between the Wildcat and German iron (Operation Torch, FAA Martlets in the channel and North Sea, etc) I've been able to find, the Germans had a pretty good opinion of the F4F (one pilot in particular was completely stunned by the Wildcat'ss diving ability).
Also remember that even the Spitfire ran into SERIOUS problems trying to turn against the A6M. Are you going to say our Spitfire's turning ability is overmodeled now, too?
So try turn-fighting a Zero in the F4F in-game and see where you get.
-
What sax said. It's all relative.
-
The wingloading on the F4F was roughly 26lbs/SF. As a comparision the wingloading on a hurricane is roughly 30lbs/SF and the A6M2 was about 22 lbs/SF. Sax framed the issue very nicely, the F4F suffers in comparison to the zeke but was actually a very nimble bird. As a comparison the SBD wingloading is under 20lbs/SF...it will eat up any zeke driver stupid enough to not use the vertical. D3A is even more lightly loaded...
-
F4F/FM2 was considered 1 of the best turn fighters we had. it was just under powered/slow.
-
The wingloading on the F4F was roughly 26lbs/SF. As a comparision the wingloading on a hurricane is roughly 30lbs/SF and the A6M2 was about 22 lbs/SF. Sax framed the issue very nicely, the F4F suffers in comparison to the zeke but was actually a very nimble bird. As a comparison the SBD wingloading is under 20lbs/SF...it will eat up any zeke driver stupid enough to not use the vertical. D3A is even more lightly loaded...
The SBD is a formidable dogfighter?
-
Only for anyone dumb enough to try and flat-turn with it.
-
The SBD is a formidable dogfighter?
Perk it!!!
Sorry , couldn't resist.
-
Perk it!!!
Sorry , couldn't resist.
:rofl
That made my day. :)
-
Well I know this is mainly what draws people to the F4F and FM2, but its manuverability seems quite historically inaccurate. I seriously doubt that it could ever turn that good in real life. My wish, please make this plane more historically accurate.
Before the model can be changed we need to know how you think it is supposed to perform. Could you also imagine how the other aircraft are supposed to perform so the models can be made more historically accurate as well?
-
I recall a WWII vet watching somebody play AH using the F4F at the AH con in 2001. The player was turning and mixing it up with a Zero. The vet, who had flown F4Fs in WWII, commented that the game looked fun, but if they'd tried that in WWII they'd have died.
-
I recall a WWII vet watching somebody play AH using the F4F at the AH con in 2001. The player was turning and mixing it up with a Zero. The vet, who had flown F4Fs in WWII, commented that the game looked fun, but if they'd tried that in WWII they'd have died.
That's the beauty of this game.. we don't die. The reality in game is... given equal pilots zeke vs f4f .. the f4f pilot will be in the tower.
-
Oy.
The F4F has earned a seriously bad rap it does NOT deserve entirely because she's not conisdered in the proper context. Please keep in mind that the F4F was predominantly flying against one of the most agile aircraft of the war. Had the F4F been measured up against the 109 instead we'd probably have a much, MUCH different picture today. In fact from the handful of encounters between the Wildcat and German iron (Operation Torch, FAA Martlets in the channel and North Sea, etc) I've been able to find, the Germans had a pretty good opinion of the F4F (one pilot in particular was completely stunned by the Wildcat'ss diving ability).
Also remember that even the Spitfire ran into SERIOUS problems trying to turn against the A6M. Are you going to say our Spitfire's turning ability is overmodeled now, too?
So try turn-fighting a Zero in the F4F in-game and see where you get.
Nice post Sax
-
Only for anyone dumb enough to try and flat-turn with it.
Actually it goes beyond that, while its obviously overmatched vs any fighter its not an easy plane to kill. I almost never die in a straight 1 on 1 in an SBD quickly. It takes a while to work one down and its nimble enough to force errors. It's actually a very survivable plane from a defensive perspective.
-
Actually it goes beyond that, while its obviously overmatched vs any fighter its not an easy plane to kill. I almost never die in a straight 1 on 1 in an SBD quickly. It takes a while to work one down and its nimble enough to force errors. It's actually a very survivable plane from a defensive perspective.
Imagine if ya had someone working the stinger. :devil
-
Well I know this is mainly what draws people to the F4F and FM2, but its manuverability seems quite historically inaccurate. I seriously doubt that it could ever turn that good in real life. My wish, please make this plane more historically accurate.
Could you seriously bring some hard data to the table that proves that the flight model is historically in-accurate ?
-
I recall a WWII vet watching somebody play AH using the F4F at the AH con in 2001. The player was turning and mixing it up with a Zero. The vet, who had flown F4Fs in WWII, commented that the game looked fun, but if they'd tried that in WWII they'd have died.
Did the F4F win or lose ?
-
Been already mentioned in this thread, but the F4F was a good plane, very good, just not against the planes it mainly went up against in the Pacific. And even then, American pilots still racked up countless amounts of kills with it, they used the FM2 throughout probably the whole war as far as I know. Atleast till the Battle of Leyte Gulf.
-
Before the model can be changed we need to know how you think it is supposed to perform. Could you also imagine how the other aircraft are supposed to perform so the models can be made more historically accurate as well?
Sorry but it doesn't matter one bit how he "thinks" it should perform. Until he can bring hard data to the table to prove it's modeled inacurately this is just a hollow wish that will never be acted on.
-
Did the F4F win or lose ?
While he watched? The F4F won, and easily. The A6M2's turn rate was only slightly better and it was easy for the F4F to cut the corner.
-
Who was flying what? That Zero probably had his stall limiter on or otherwise had no clue because I've never been in a stall-speed turn fight F4F vs. Zero and come out on top.
-
If the F4F beat an A6M2 then either the F4F started with an an advantage or the zeke driver was a significantly worse pilot. You can give an F4F your 6 in a zeke and beat it like a drum if you dont get hammered in the initial reverse.
-
Actually it goes beyond that, while its obviously overmatched vs any fighter its not an easy plane to kill. I almost never die in a straight 1 on 1 in an SBD quickly. It takes a while to work one down and its nimble enough to force errors. It's actually a very survivable plane from a defensive perspective.
I second that. I don't know how long it took me to get you in that thing but it was a difficult fight. I don't remember what I was flying.
-
Sorry but it doesn't matter one bit how he "thinks" it should perform. Until he can bring hard data to the table to prove it's modeled inacurately this is just a hollow wish that will never be acted on.
Darn...shooting down bald eagles is illegal. Hope nobody was watching.
:D
Now that you mention it, though, I saw an article on-line (I'll get busy writing it) that said the F4U-1 could accelerate in a vertical climb.
-
Took me 10 whole minutes to kill SnapHook in his SBD once......... I was probably in a Spit8. As SBD drivers go, he is one of the best!
The SBD is a formidable dogfighter?
-
While he watched? The F4F won, and easily. The A6M2's turn rate was only slightly better and it was easy for the F4F to cut the corner.
I have a very hard time believing that, Steve Hinton who has access and flies the only surviving originally powered A6M
said it was by far the best turning plane he has ever flown. Not until the Thatch Weave was introduced did the Wildcat start having any real success's against the Zero and that was a defensive flying strategy which had nothing to do with the planes turning ability. Saburo Sakai Hiroyoshi Nishizawa and others knew and exploited the Wildcats maneuverability in comparison to their Zero's and were able to achieve results because of it.
-
We may have to get History Channel to do this on Dogfights.................... :D
-
Been already mentioned in this thread, but the F4F was a good plane, very good, just not against the planes it mainly went up against in the Pacific. And even then, American pilots still racked up countless amounts of kills with it, they used the FM2 throughout probably the whole war as far as I know. Atleast till the Battle of Leyte Gulf.
Countless? I think you exaggerating the term countless. Runyon was one of the leading F4F "Aces", credited with shooting down 8 Japanese aircraft while flying "Wildcats". ...
-
Imagine if ya had someone working the stinger. :devil
I took someone up in a SBD as a gunner not to long ago. He ended up exiting out because he told me he started to feel sick to his stomach from all the twisting and turning I was doing.
ack-ack
-
And even then, American pilots still racked up countless amounts of kills with it...
But that was do to tactics, not the maneuverability of the Wildcat against the Zeke.
ack-ack
-
I took someone up in a SBD as a gunner not to long ago. He ended up exiting out because he told me he started to feel sick to his stomach from all the twisting and turning I was doing.
ack-ack
Sure he didn't turn around and see your face? Only joking AkAk :rofl
-
Just to chime in because I happen to love the Wildcats, the FM-2 was only around from 43 onward. Once the F4U/F6F came around, it was used almost exclusively from escort carriers where their small size helped. Not that it changes the argument.
-
I thought the zekes did box turns, and that is how they got around on the six's of most aircraft so quickly, otherwise being easly out dove before reaching a firing spot, as the americans' would most likely spot the enemy and dive away.
-Shrugs-
-
Countless? I think you exaggerating the term countless. Runyon was one of the leading F4F "Aces", credited with shooting down 8 Japanese aircraft while flying "Wildcats". ...
Top wildcat aces:
Top USMC and USN Wildcat Aces Kills Medals Squadron Plane
Joseph Foss 26.0 MH VMF-121 F4F
John L. Smith
19.0
MH VMF-223 F4F
Marion E. Carl
18.5
NC VMF-223 F4F
James E. Swett 15.5 MH VMF-221 F4F
F4U
Lt. Elbert McCuskey (USN) 13.5 NC VF-3/VF-42/VF-8 F4F/F6F
Robert E. Galer 13.0 MH VMF-224 F4F
William P. Marontate 13.0 - VMF-121 F4F
Kenneth D. Frazier 12.5 - VMF-223 F4F
Loren D. Everton 12.0 - VMF-212 F4F
Harold W. Bauer 11.0 MH VMF-212 F4F
Jefferson DeBlanc 9.0 MH VMF-112 F4F
Stanley W. "Swede" Vejtasa (USN) 10.3 NC VF-10 F4F
Whitey Feightner (USN) 9.0 - VF-10/VF-8 F4F/F6F
Ralph E. Elliott (USN) 9.0 - VC-27 FM-2
Edward "Butch" O'Hare (USN) 7.0 MH VF-3 F4F
-
Top wildcat aces:
Top USMC and USN Wildcat Aces Kills Medals Squadron Plane
Joseph Foss 26.0 MH VMF-121 F4F
John L. Smith
19.0
MH VMF-223 F4F
Marion E. Carl
18.5
NC VMF-223 F4F
James E. Swett 15.5 MH VMF-221 F4F
F4U
Lt. Elbert McCuskey (USN) 13.5 NC VF-3/VF-42/VF-8 F4F/F6F
Robert E. Galer 13.0 MH VMF-224 F4F
William P. Marontate 13.0 - VMF-121 F4F
Kenneth D. Frazier 12.5 - VMF-223 F4F
Loren D. Everton 12.0 - VMF-212 F4F
Harold W. Bauer 11.0 MH VMF-212 F4F
Jefferson DeBlanc 9.0 MH VMF-112 F4F
Stanley W. "Swede" Vejtasa (USN) 10.3 NC VF-10 F4F
Whitey Feightner (USN) 9.0 - VF-10/VF-8 F4F/F6F
Ralph E. Elliott (USN) 9.0 - VC-27 FM-2
Edward "Butch" O'Hare (USN) 7.0 MH VF-3 F4F
Your figures are a little misleading since many of those pilots didn't acheive all of their kills in wildcats. Some flew F4U's and F6F's .Runyon was the leading Navy Wildcat ace while Foss was the Marines. From what I see here the totals of all the pilots listed are just below 200 kills, many were scored in other planes other than the F4F. The top 3 Zero ace's have a better collective record then these 15 American pilots do. So countless is a term that confuses me.
-
Has anyone else notice the guy who started this thread hasn't said a thing since?
:noid
-
Your figures are a little misleading since many of those pilots didn't acheive all of their kills in wildcats. Some flew F4U's and F6F's .Runyon was the leading Navy Wildcat ace while Foss was the Marines. From what I see here the totals of all the pilots listed are just below 200 kills, many were scored in other planes other than the F4F. The top 3 Zero ace's have a better collective record then these 15 American pilots do. So countless is a term that confuses me.
You said Runyon was one of the leading F4F aces, when Foss scored 26 all in the F4F.
Says what plane(s) they scored their kills in, and it says Runyon wasn't the leading navy Ace
Ralph E. Elliott (USN) 9.0 - VC-27 FM-2
Stanley W. "Swede" Vejtasa (USN) 10.3 NC VF-10 F4F
-
You said Runyon was one of the leading F4F aces, when Foss scored 26 all in the F4F.
Says what plane(s) they scored their kills in, and it says Runyon wasn't the leading navy Ace
Ralph E. Elliott (USN) 9.0 - VC-27 FM-2
Stanley W. "Swede" Vejtasa (USN) 10.3 NC VF-10 F4F
He said Runyon was the USN's leading Wildcat ace while Foss was the leading USMC Wildcat ace. Vejtasa didn't score all of his kills in the Wildcat, 3 of them were in a SBD.
ack-ack
-
You said Runyon was one of the leading F4F aces, when Foss scored 26 all in the F4F.
Says what plane(s) they scored their kills in, and it says Runyon wasn't the leading navy Ace
Ralph E. Elliott (USN) 9.0 - VC-27 FM-2
Stanley W. "Swede" Vejtasa (USN) 10.3 NC VF-10 F4F
First Vejtasa got 7 in the F4F and 3 in the SBD.His only Zero kills were in the SBD Second the Fm2 is not the F4F by any means and I would have to do a bit of research to make sure in fact that Elliott scored all his victories in the FM2.