Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: oakranger on February 15, 2009, 09:04:49 AM
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What do you think it takes to make a AC or GV perk? Seems like ppl are rant and raving about perk this and perk that. Even i rant about perking the WW. So what does it take to be a perk ride?
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Out of the normal, "uber", etc.
Take a look at the C-hog. It's out of the normal because it has 4 20mms, and it's got speed, same with the F4U4 with out the 20mms.
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Anything that if free would unbalance the game.
How fun would an arena full of 262s be?
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Anything that if free would unbalance the game.
How fun would an arena full of 262s be?
What makes the 262 perk, especially so high. Gun package just about the same as C-HOG. It has the speed. However, it is not uber, no accretion, and can be a easy target when slow and on the deck.
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If the only vehicle that was defending a base, or attacking one, or clearing spawn camps with ease was a WW then they would perk it. Same for a plane, if more than half the folk flying were all flying the same plane, then they would perk the plane.
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Well first you have to be shot down by them. In fact you have to be shot down by them a lot.
Indeed you have to be "shot down in them" "by them" you consider inferior, skill-less dweebs who wouldn't have shot your little cartoon airplane down if he'd been a real man and been in a real mans vehicle. The WW is hated by the fighter crowd because it chews up their little fighters like paper machete, often while they are pirouetting thru the air, while filming themselves, after shooting down 20 helpless noobs on the runway.
The WW is like the chomping head in Pacman. It just eats little cartoon airplanes, most of all little cartoon fighters, and then craps em out. And anytime these Lords of the air get shot down it must be somebody elses fault. Hence the sniveling.
The 37mm IL-2 is the same kinda creature with tanks. Most of all the tanks that cost you perks and rank. Even somebody as helpless and pitiful as I can master the IL-2, "even the Godless commies did". And the IL-2, with the big banana, puts a crimp in the old Lord of armor who used to putt about alone in his Tiger, sniping helpless little enemy cartoon tanks, from miles away with their little cartoon 88s. Now they are looking over their shoulders in fear of some skill-less dweeb mowing them down with high vel cannon from the air. Hence the whining.
That its a game based on the realities on an actual war means nothing. They want to murder their little cartoon airplanes, and GVs, with no interference. And anything that does interfere?? Then perk the scoundrels! Hahaha, can you imagine in WW-ll a single enemy fighter making repeated vulches on an enemy airbase without getting shot at? Or a single tank porking an enemy base unhindered? :lol
Thats pretty much it. Its not about the war, or history, or even the game. Its all about "me" regarding perking.But to their credit the staff at Aces High doesn't make such decisions lightly. They seem to think it thru first. And it seems to me they actually have people who are knowledgeable about the actual war and that that dynamic is also taken into account. Nothing is perfect but I think they have done an over-all good job. Certainly better then I could have done.
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What makes the 262 perk, especially so high. Gun package just about the same as C-HOG. It has the speed. However, it is not uber, no accretion, and can be a easy target when slow and on the deck.
my guess is its because this is a "prop" game and they want to keep the "jet" use to a minimum.... at least that what I hope it is. If they start adding more jets I would seriously start looking for a new game to play.
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It takes HT and Pyro to say ... "It's perked" ... Simple.
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Oakranger thinks 4 tater guns and an extra 100 mph is no big deal :huh
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There are no set criteria for perking. It seems to be done on a case by case basis for different reasons.
If there were a set of criteria for perking, it's very likely the Spitfire XVI would be perked simply because it has no achilles heel.
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What makes the 262 perk, especially so high. Gun package just about the same as C-HOG. It has the speed. However, it is not uber, no accretion, and can be a easy target when slow and on the deck.
Every plane is an easy target when the pilot messes it up.
However, the Me 262 is almost completely untouchable if it's pilot choses to fly it that way, cutting through any kind of opposition to get that goons for example. Ot is truly a plane that meets the definintion if a perk ride:
Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc. These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis
(For all newer players: Yes, the Ta 152 had once indeed been a perk plane in AH)
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If there were a set of criteria for perking, it's very likely the Spitfire XVI would be perked simply because it has no achilles heel.
Uhm.. mediocre top speed (ranked #26 with WEP on the deck)? Fragile wings?
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thing is though if the vehicles get perked that people complain about (spit16, la7 and WW mostly) then all they will do is move to the next vehicle saying its to ubber.
whiner - perk the spit 16 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the spit 9 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the spit 8 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the spit 5 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the spit 1 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the hmmm. damn nothing left to perk - skuzzy - well you whinged about every thing now live with it!!!!!!!!!
whiner - skuzzy can we have the sopworth camel please??? pretty please. promise we wont wine that its to ubber if you do.
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<SNIP>That its a game based on the realities on an actual war means nothing. </SNIP>
Actually it is a game based on fighters where folks can fight eachother in WW2 modeled aircraft..... per HT. It is not based on war at all. All other things you can do in AH are just icing on the cake.
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What makes the 262 perk, especially so high. Gun package just about the same as C-HOG. It has the speed. However, it is not uber, no accretion, and can be a easy target when slow and on the deck.
It's a frikkin JET! ;)
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Anything that if free would unbalance the game.
How fun would an arena full of 262s be?
The answer has been staring at you since second reply...
The spixteen isn't perked because it's not unbalancing gameplay, the reason being it's mostly only noobs that fly it. The Ta-152 wasn't unbalancing gameplay because there is only one m00t buzzing around in it, and we have yet to descover the secret of cloning...
:noid
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Uhm.. mediocre top speed (ranked #26 with WEP on the deck)? Fragile wings?
When compared statistically to the rest of the plane-set, the Spitfire XVI still gets a positive score for top speed on the deck, which at 344mph is only in the "good" category.
Once you get to 10k ft, the Spitfire XVI compares even better to the rest of the plane-set for level top speed.
For level speed, the Spitfire XVI's Zscore is
sea level: .37
10k ft: .64
In many other performance categories the SpitfireXVI's zscores are even higher.
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When compared statistically to the rest of the plane-set, the Spitfire XVI still gets a positive score for top speed on the deck, which at 344mph is only in the "good" category.
Yea... I always burn my wep for speed not clawing for more alt. :rolleyes:
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Both the Spitfire Mk16 and La7 require a light perk because they are both uber.
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Both the Spitfire Mk16 and La7 require a light perk because they are both uber.
Nope, not the La-7. The cannon ballistics are poor and its performance drops off a cliff above 5k ft. Its very short range and tiny ordinance capacity also help to nudge it into the no-perk zone.
Oh wait, was that a troll? :lol
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When compared statistically to the rest of the plane-set, the Spitfire XVI still gets a positive score for top speed on the deck, which at 344mph is only in the "good" category.
Once you get to 10k ft, the Spitfire XVI compares even better to the rest of the plane-set for level top speed.
For level speed, the Spitfire XVI's Zscore is
sea level: .37
10k ft: .64
In many other performance categories the SpitfireXVI's zscores are even higher.
I don't know about Zscore... but these planes are faster on the deck:
Me 262
Tempest V
La-7
F4U-4
Fw 190D-9
Typhoon
Bf 109K4
P-51D
P-47N
F4U-1A
Ta 152H
Spitfire Mkx14 XIV
F4U-1
P-51B
La-5FN
F4U-1D
F4U-1C
Yak-9U
Bf 109G-14
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
P-47D-11
P-38L
P3-38J
P-47D-40
And now that you mentioned the short range of the La-7... the Spit XVI has a short range too. ;)
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I think anything that is double-superior (as fast or faster at typical MA alts and more maneuverable) to a great many contemporaries should be perked. Contemporaries meaning for instance, other Late-War(LW) planes in LW arena, not the entire set, Mid-War planes should not be compared to LW planes for these purposes.
For instance Anax, you have the issue exactly backwards about the La7 and Spit16. The Lala's speed by itself of course, is not the deciding factor, it is the fact that it is both faster and more maneuverable at typical MA alts than a great many LW fighters...ballistics, range, etc, are side issues compared to the primary considerations for fighters, energy performance and angles performance
By way of comparison, the D9 is nearly as fast as the La7 at low levels, rolls better, has better range and arguably a better gun package, BUT, because this speed comes at the price of being very nearly the least maneuverable fighter in the game, every other class of fighter in AHII has legitimate strategy (angles fighting) to use against the D9 and thus can't complain about its non-perked status. In another example, the 109K4 would be an excellent candidate for perkage IF it were faster at a little lower level, not dive limited, turned a little better, and had an easier gun package, but together these things make a reasonable case for leaving it free.
From where I stand, unperked La7s make less sense than unperked Tempests; Both are faster than everything else at low levels, but the latter is certainly the poorer dogfighter, easier to kill or put to flight, so what gives?
The Spit16 though is a borderline case, it is definitely awesome in all aspects outside of top-speed, but most LW planes that are not competitive with the Spit16 in a Co-E dogfight can avoid engaging the Spit16 if they keep their speed and SA up.
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From where I stand, unperked La7s make less sense than unperked Tempests; Both are faster than everything else at low levels, but the latter is certainly the poorer dogfighter, easier to kill or put to flight, so what gives?
The Tempest has an impressive combination of speed, range (when compared to the LA), and 4*20mm Hispano while it's not that bad in turning as many players might think.
There's a reason the Tempest has constantly the highest K/D of all planes in AH: It can go there, kill, and go away.
Yes in a duel-like 1vs1 against the LA, the Tempest is running into trouble, but the MA is no DA ;)
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thing is though if the vehicles get perked that people complain about (spit16, la7 and WW mostly) then all they will do is move to the next vehicle saying its to ubber.
whiner - perk the spit 16 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the spit 9 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the spit 8 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the spit 5 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the spit 1 its ubber - skuzzy - ok its perked
whiner - perk the hmmm. damn nothing left to perk - skuzzy - well you whinged about every thing now live with it!!!!!!!!!
whiner - skuzzy can we have the sopworth camel please??? pretty please. promise we wont wine that its to ubber if you do.
:rofl, that funny
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Both the Spitfire Mk16 and La7 require a light perk because they are both uber.
Not La-7. I can dog fight a La-7 while in a 190.
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Yes in a duel-like 1vs1 against the LA, the Tempest is running into trouble, but the MA is no DA ;)
A fleeing plane is no threat. You say the pertinent fact yourself in the quote...If you see the Tempest coming while flying most any plane, you have more options against it than against the LaLa, and if you don't see it coming in time or are fighting a group, it little matters whether your get picked by 4xHispanos or 3xB-20s.
By the same logic, I actually think the perk price on the 262 ought to be lowered some. Yes it is death to buffs, near uncatchable, and has four barrels of death for anything that doesn't see it coming, thus it needs to remain on the top of the heap price-wise. But otherwise, it is a difficult plane to actually fight in and moreover it faces the constant threat of suicidal ho-ram everytime it goes near another ride because its perk price is so high.
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A fleeing plane is no threat.
It's not that simple.
There's a difference between fleeing (=going home) and disengaging. I can disengage from the plane that's a threat to me and go jump another.
The Tempest can get seperation, then swing in again with blazing Hispanos, whiche have much better long range firepower. Unlike the La-7, it carries a lot of fuel to make it a constant threat in an area for quite some time. Almost no plane can run it down with a co-e, and it's still maneuverable enough to give most fighters a very hard time in a dogfight without having to extend for 3k.
It's a FAR more dangerous enemy in MA terms than a LA-7
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I don't know about Zscore... but these planes are faster on the deck:
Zscore is when you subtract the average stat for all planes from the plane in question, and divide by the standard deviation. So the Spitfire XVI Zscore for speed is (344mph - average speed for all prop aircraft)/standard deviation.
Leave the 262 out of this. Including it only serves to make your list look bigger. I'm not sure why you listed the P-47D-40. It is not faster than the SpitXVI at sea level, and the P-38J/L are 1mph faster at sea level; the 47D-11 is 2mph faster.
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Are you advocating unperking the tempest, bnzs? just checking. :D
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Zscore is when you subtract the average stat for all planes from the plane in question, and divide by the standard deviation. So the Spitfire XVI Zscore for speed is (344mph - average speed for all prop aircraft)/standard deviation.
Leave the 262 out of this. Including it only serves to make your list look bigger. I'm not sure why you listed the P-47D-40. It is not faster than the SpitXVI at sea level, and the P-38J/L are 1mph faster at sea level; the 47D-11 is 2mph faster.
Actually, there was a point reagrding to Zscore. Speed is an absolute asset. Sometimes you can compute just too much ;)
And the list is just that, a list. I didn't include anything just "to made it look bad", it's my list of aircraft speeds. And the point is - it was my answer on the claim: "the Spit XVI has no weakness". The fact that the 38 is only 2mph faster doesn't change anything. It still stands that the XVI has rather mediocre top speed.
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Don't make me list all of the aircraft which are slower than the SpitXVI. :D
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Don't make me list all of the aircraft which are slower than the SpitXVI. :D
Which I would do if someone claimed the 16 absolutely sucks and is being about the slowest fighter in LW :D
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Yes let's perk what amounts to a MW AC in a late war arena.
XVI= LF Mk IX = early 43 IIRC. :rolleyes:
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Give it 150 octane fuel and i would be more than happy for HTC to perk the hell out out of it. :)
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Give it 150 octane fuel and i would be more than happy for HTC to perk the hell out out of it. :)
Or give me the old Mk V back. :pray
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Perk the 51D !!!
Lotsa reasons.
runs and hides.
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Perk the 51D !!!
Lotsa reasons.
runs and hides.
I'm confused.. are you running and hiding over the comment or are you describing most 51 pilots game play? ;)
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I love claiming the La7 is Uber and then watching people go ballistic. Better ballistics than the Lala's cannons actually.
La 7 is Uber! Perk it!
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Lol.
Both gameplay and the amount of P-51s you see in the game.
You have seen the kill stats on those planes, haven't you?
It was the most famous plane of WW2 for a reason.
Super fast, great guns,range, great visiblity, carries plenty of ord.
And contrary to popular usage, its pretty manuverable too.
I say perk it!
I've seen worse arguments for perking planes, GVs etc in here.
just my opinion.
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Yes let's perk what amounts to a MW AC in a late war arena.
XVI= LF Mk IX = early 43 IIRC. :rolleyes:
Lets get all hung up on dates and ignore capability. :rolleyes:
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Lets get all hung up on dates and ignore capability. :rolleyes:
:rofl RJ MITCHELL is laughing at you also.... from beyond the grave.
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Today we must have killed 4 or 5 Bish 262s that tried to support a big GV attack on one of our airbases. Did you ever wonder why nobody really fears 262s when they show up? Unless you are in bombers? But even then? They are more like oddities you just have to keep an eye on instead of actually fear them.
Like today the 262s tried supporting ground action down low and they just got chewed up avoiding HOs, indeed, a few times they left themselves open to the HO by avoiding them. I know a few times I couldn't turn my IL2s fast enough and had the 262 unleashed its 30mms it would have been curtains for the big guy. But they cost so much, even when cheap, and they actually hold so little advantage where most of the fighting is done that there is never any real reason to fear them.
The Tempest?? Different story. The Tempest is a pure killer and its no surprise to me its the dominant perked killer in the game. Its very, very fast. As in "very fast" anywhere you go in the Alt. column. With drop tanks it has very good range. Its 4 20mm Hispanos is the dominant gun package in the game. And the odds of finding someone unskilled in it is about zero. I took one up a few times and this thing is a beast. As for turning? Well if your keeping the fight at 300+ mph then I guess only your fast turning ability matters right?
And since its far cheaper perk-wise then the 262 guys fly it a lot more aggressive. No the Tempest is a real killer. No doubt about that.
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Today we must have killed 4 or 5 Bish 262s that tried to support a big GV attack on one of our airbases. Did you ever wonder why nobody really fears 262s when they show up? Unless you are in bombers? But even then? They are more like oddities you just have to keep an eye on instead of actually fear them.
Like today the 262s tried supporting ground action down low and they just got chewed up avoiding HOs, indeed, a few times they left themselves open to the HO by avoiding them. I know a few times I couldn't turn my IL2s fast enough and had the 262 unleashed its 30mms it would have been curtains for the big guy. But they cost so much, even when cheap, and they actually hold so little advantage where most of the fighting is done that there is never any real reason to fear them.
The Tempest?? Different story. The Tempest is a pure killer and its no surprise to me its the dominant perked killer in the game. Its very, very fast. As in "very fast" anywhere you go in the Alt. column. With drop tanks it has very good range. Its 4 20mm Hispanos is the dominant gun package in the game. And the odds of finding someone unskilled in it is about zero. I took one up a few times and this thing is a beast. As for turning? Well if your keeping the fight at 300+ mph then I guess only your fast turning ability matters right?
And since its far cheaper perk-wise then the 262 guys fly it a lot more aggressive. No the Tempest is a real killer. No doubt about that.
If you ever ran into Furball in a 262... it'd change your mind in a hurry.
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:rofl RJ MITCHELL is laughing at you also.... from beyond the grave.
In fact he is not. His spirit is still vengefully haunting the children and grandchildren of whatever casting director decided to have David Niven play him in the movie "Spitfire."
But seriously, yours is a completely empty rebuttal. It is statistically demonstrable that the Spitfire XVI is very capable in terms of performance compared to the whole AHII plane set, a fact which you cannot truthfully deny. So you obfuscate by pointing out that its performance is basically equivalent to the LF Mk. IX...may I be the first to say, so what? If we perked airplanes in relation to how rare/common they were or date of introduction the Ta-152 would still be perked, and the Me-262 might well be unperked.
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In fact he is not. His spirit is still vengefully haunting the children and grandchildren of whatever casting director decided to have David Niven play him in the movie "Spitfire."
But seriously, yours is a completely empty rebuttal. It is statistically demonstrable that the Spitfire XVI is very capable in terms of performance compared to the whole AHII plane set, a fact which you cannot truthfully deny. So you obfuscate by pointing out that its performance is basically equivalent to the LF Mk. IX...may I be the first to say, so what? If we perked airplanes in relation to how rare/common they were or date of introduction the Ta-152 would still be perked, and the Me-262 might well be unperked.
Any LW AC will walk away from it at top speed. It is fragile and poor over the nose view.
Perking it will only lead to the perk the Mk VIII because its the supposed next best.
Because that is exactly what the XVI drivers will jump into.
Now tell me about the huge diff between the Mk XVI and the Mk VIII. :rolleyes:
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Perk the p=51D? HUMMM, There are far more tought planes to face than a pony.
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Perk every plane.
Think about it..
Points same way as they are now.
Each month X number of points are credited to you(paying members only)(they're imaginary anyway don't cost nuttin for HTC)
Certainly increases the "value" of a plane and how its handled by the user.
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Perk the p=51D? HUMMM, There are far more tought planes to face than a pony.
Hummmm.
Ever tried to "face" a pony.
For the most part, the part of the punkstang I see most is its 6 0'clock.
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Hummmm.
Ever tried to "face" a pony.
For the most part, the part of the punkstang I see most is its 6 0'clock.... and getting smaller all the time.
Had to help a bit. :aok
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Had to help a bit. :aok
Lmao!!
I thought it went without saying.
Well I guess I owe ya a nice frosty beer!!
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Now tell me about the huge diff between the Mk XVI and the Mk VIII. :rolleyes:
The XVI is a little faster, accelerates better (even when the VIII is balanced with less fuel), has better armament, carries more ordinance, and is the only Spit that rolls well at 400mph (where the VIII barely rolls at all).
If you took away the XVI's roll rate advantage over the VIII there would be no talk of perking it from me.
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Any LW AC will walk away from it at top speed.
Okay, I've been looking over the performance curves...
The P-47D-25 and D-40, P-38L, and F4U1-D don't exactly "walk" away from it in top speed at any typical MA alt, and they accelerate worse. Can't exactly disengage at will there. The same is true of the Fw-190A/F 8. The Ki-84 has the same speed until you climb abit, at which point it is slower. The N1K is clearly slower. This is just a cursory survey so far. Needless to say, the statement that "any" LW AC will walk away from the Spit XVI is clearly false.
Now tell me about the huge diff between the Mk XVI and the Mk VIII. :rolleyes:
The SpitVIII is slightly inferior in top speed, and very inferior in roll rate, especially at high speeds, and its gun package is somewhat less lethal, lacking the outboard .50s.
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The hizookas are the same.. Thats what does the killing. I'm willing to bet you're not getting smoked by the 400 mph roll rate either.
Keep huffing and puffing boies.
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The hizookas are the same.. Thats what does the killing. I'm willing to bet you're not getting smoked by the 400 mph roll rate either.'
If you don't see how being able to roll briskly at high IAS is an advantage for a combat airplane, then I'm afraid I don't quite know how to explain it to you...
Keep huffing and puffing boies.
Translation:
You don't have any effective rebuttals for arguments based on clear knowledge of the SpitXVIs relative performance. You may not have even come to the argument aware of how fast the SpitXVI is relative many LW rides at typical MA alts. So now you are edging towards personal insult and innuendo. Congratulations, you just did the equivalent of biting in a boxing match. Of course, the peanut gallery will only cheer the louder.
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PERK THE WW!
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If you don't see how being able to roll briskly at high IAS is an advantage for a combat airplane, then I'm afraid I don't quite know how to explain it to you...
Great lets perk the f4u-d. It's faster ,carries more ords, with it's so called magic hover flaps turns tighter than a zeke (or so some say). Ohh how about the 1337!!!11!1 dive brake able to drop gear at 350 mph for those crazy fast overshoots. It has one of the fastest roll rates in game. Almost forgot the 6 .50 ez mode gun package. All it doesn't have is initial acceleration/cimb. Which it overcomes with it's incredible E retention.
See thats what you sound like.
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Frankly, Spit8 or Spit16 have the same problems regardless of which you come across.
- Unless you're in a pony or an lgay, it will chase your bellybutton down with even a couple hundred feet to dive on you (if it doesn't catch you from 5k below, easily outpacing you, as it does so often)
- Unless you're in a zeke or some other 1941-era plane nothing will out-turn it
- once something catches you, dives on you, is on your arse and about to kill you, roll rate really doesn't mean too much. Nice to have, for sure, but by the time a spit needs to use its roll rate you're already in a bad position
- it just hardly ever stalls out, even a first-time pilot can up one (after asking what key retracts gear) and get a kill in a furball with NO other training.
- the flight model has been suspect for quite some time now. I've been flying one way at 400+mph, had a spit16 HO me, turn 180 behind me and CLOSE on me in a very shallow dive repeatedly. They also have taken off on fields below me, climbed up and caught up to my plane which was at high speed (300+) already. The entire flight model is fishy. UFO to the extreme.
These two planes make up probably the majority of ALL spitfire use, and are by FAR two of the most capable planes in the entire game. Consider they have almost as much use as the P51D, but each one shares the others' score because more than one model is being used, whereas the pony just has one dominant ride.
Both are quite perk-worthy.
LA7 handles worse since it was remodeled. No longer such a UFO (kind of like N1K2), probably doesn't warrant a perk due to loss of manuverability, now. No worse than P51 it seems.
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Film... ohh wait like collisions there never ever is.
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Great lets perk the f4u-d. It's faster ,carries more ords, with it's so called magic hover flaps turns tighter than a zeke (or so some say). Ohh how about the 1337!!!11!1 dive brake able to drop gear at 350 mph for those crazy fast overshoots. It has one of the fastest roll rates in game. Almost forgot the 6 .50 ez mode gun package. All it doesn't have is initial acceleration/cimb. Which it overcomes with it's incredible E retention.
See thats what you sound like.
No, that's an exaggeration meant to make someone look foolish. ;)
The F4U's roll rate is one of the best in the game once you reach speeds of 400mph ias, otherwise it's good but nothing fantastic, i.e. 200mph roll rate zscore is .19, 300mph zscore is .67, 400mph zscore is .78.
Acceleration and climb are more important arena attributes than energy retention, hands down. The aircraft with the best energy retention are the Mosquito, P-38 and 110 series. Significantly far behind them are the P-47, F4U and 190A/F series (for some reason the 190D holds e worse than the other 190s). The Tempest's energy retention is poor, worse than any 109, but that doesn't seem to hurt it much. ;) Lastly, the 6x.50 cal armament doesn't take of stabilizers with a snap shot, which we know the 20mm hispano does frequently.
Basically, we are saying that in all of the most important categories the XVI scores well in almost every single one. You can emphasize the less important categories to try and make everything look relative, but that approach doesn't hold up to the evidence provided by arena combat and an analysis of the aircraft that score well in these less important categories. For example, the 110 and Mosquito hold energy far better than any single engine fighter, but we all know this attribute does not make up for acceleration and climb in the arena.
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Lol.
Both gameplay and the amount of P-51s you see in the game.
You have seen the kill stats on those planes, haven't you?
It was the most famous plane of WW2 for a reason.
Super fast, great guns,range, great visiblity, carries plenty of ord.
And contrary to popular usage, its pretty manuverable too.
I say perk it!
I've seen worse arguments for perking planes, GVs etc in here.
just my opinion.
I kind of agree with you. But the 51 takes forever to get up to speed after you get it slow, is outclimbed and out turned but the majority of planes in the arena. Yes it's manuvers well but the problem is that 75% of the pony drivers manuver in a straight line away from the fight :lol I don't think the P51 is good enough to be perked, but wouldn't mind a small perk on it for no other reason then keep so many people out of it.
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It's faster ,
Right on the deck up to 2.5K, the top speed of the F4U-1D is somewhat (about 10mph) greater. From approximately 2.5K to ~12K, the SpitXVI is slightly faster. Above 20K, the SpitXVI takes the speed crown back. According to Dokgonzos, the non-flaps turn radius of the Spit16 is much smaller than the non-flaps radius F4U. The full flaps radius of the Spit16 compared to the full flaps radius of the F4U-1D is almost as small. Yes, I know the F4U's flaps can be brought into play sooner than the Spit's, however, this is something to think about, is it not? Furthermore, turn rate as opposed to radius plainly goes to the Spit, as does obviously climb rate.
Funny you mention E-retention. I did some zoom climb tests on many planes in the set awhile back, seeing how much alt they would regain in a zoom from the deck@400mph IAS. I don't remember exactly where the SpitXVI stacked up, but I clearly remember there was less than 1000 feet, (feet, not yards) difference between them.
No doubt the F4U is a tough nut to crack,still the lethargic climb and acceleration of the F4Us is a more exploitable weakness than the fact that the SpitXVI is slower than a few late war planes.
See thats what you sound like.
What you sound like is a man who came to the argument without all the facts, and finding himself loosing, is now trying to goad. As I prophesied earlier, it is nice to be right on that account as well.
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No doubt the F4U is a tough nut to crack,still the lethargic climb and acceleration of the F4Us is a more exploitable weakness than the fact that the SpitXVI is slower than a few late war planes.
A few ehh
OTD that are faster
La-7
Fw 190D-9
Typhoon
Bf 109K4
P-51D
P-47N
F4U-1A
Ta 152H
F4U-1
P-51B
La-5FN
F4U-1D
F4U-1C
Yak-9U
Bf 109G-14
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
P-47D-11
P-38L
P3-38J
P-47D-40
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In Aces High, zoom climb is a poor measure of pure energy retention. The correct way to test the latter is to fly to a certain speed, shut the engine off, and measure the time it takes to decelerate to e.g. 150mph.
I tested zoom climbs a little bit once and the SpitXVI outzooms the P-38J/L, which holds energy much better using the test outlined above. Within the performance ranges we have in the game, powerloading counts more for zoom climb than energy retention.
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Bronk, the P-47D-40 is not faster than the Spitfire XVI. The P-38J/L and the 47D-11 are a hair faster.
Crowding the list with similar variants does have a nice visual impact, though...it's almost persuasive.
Here are the zscores for speed at sea level:
Tempest 1.78
LA7 1.58
190D-9 1.39
F4U-4 1.32
Typhoon 1.29
109 K-4 1.16
P47N 1.09
P51D 1.06
TA152 0.96
Spit XIV 0.93
F4U-1 0.83
F4U-1A 0.83
P51B 0.83
YAK 9U 0.83
LA5 0.80
109 G-14 0.76
F4U-1C 0.67
F4U-1D 0.67
190A-8 0.57
190F-8 0.57
P47D-11 0.44
P38J 0.41
P38L 0.41
KI84 0.37
P47D-25 0.37
P47D-40 0.37
Spit XVI 0.37
109 G-2 0.31
190A-5 0.24
Mossie 0.21
Spit VIII 0.21
109 G-6 0.14
109 F-4 0.05
C205 0.01
F6F -0.05
YAK 9T -0.12
P-39Q -0.15
N1K2 -0.18
P38G -0.18
Spit IX -0.38
110 G -0.51
C202 -0.51
KI61 -0.67
P-39D -0.80
Spit V -0.87
Seafire IIC -0.90
Spit I -0.97
FM2 -1.00
110 C -1.07
P40E -1.10
109 E-4 -1.26
A6M5 -1.36
F4F -1.59
P40B -1.82
Hurri IIC -1.88
A6M2 -2.05
Hurri IID -2.18
Hurri I -2.31
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Your list is incorrect regarding the P-38L and the P-47D-40 below 10K. The 190A8 and F8 are faster only right on the deck and then only marginally(5mph). The P-47D-11 is all of 2mph faster on the deck, and otherwise slower up to about 13K. If you are going to argue with me, at least take the time to learn the facts first.
A few ehh
OTD that are faster
La-7
Fw 190D-9
Typhoon
Bf 109K4
P-51D
P-47N
F4U-1A
Ta 152H
F4U-1
P-51B
La-5FN
F4U-1D
F4U-1C
Yak-9U
Bf 109G-14
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
P-47D-11
P-38L
P3-38J
P-47D-40
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Anax, that is very interesting, but zoom climb with the engine actually running is a far more practical test IMHO. :D
In Aces High, zoom climb is a poor measure of pure energy retention. The correct way to test the latter is to fly to a certain speed, shut the engine off, and measure the time it takes to decelerate to e.g. 150mph.
I tested zoom climbs a little bit once and the SpitXVI outzooms the P-38J/L, which holds energy much better using the test outlined above. Within the performance ranges we have in the game, powerloading counts more for zoom climb than energy retention.
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All these stats make my head hurt :frown:
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Zscore for best speed <10k ft:
Tempest 1.72
109 K-4 1.55
190D-9 1.45
P51D 1.41
Spit XIV 1.28
F4U-4 1.14
LA7 1.14
P47N 1.14
P51B 1.14
109 G-14 0.98
Typhoon 0.98
F4U-1 0.88
F4U-1A 0.88
YAK 9U 0.88
TA152 0.74
Spit XVI 0.64
Spit IX 0.54
F4U-1C 0.50
F4U-1D 0.50
LA5 0.50
P47D-11 0.47
Spit VIII 0.47
P38J 0.30
P-39Q 0.30
P38L 0.30
P47D-25 0.30
P47D-40 0.27
190A-5 0.17
KI84 0.17
109 G-2 0.13
109 G-6 0.13
Mossie 0.13
C205 0.07
190A-8 0.07
190F-8 0.07
109 F-4 -0.04
N1K2 -0.14
P38G -0.20
YAK 9T -0.34
F6F -0.37
KI61 -0.47
P-39D -0.47
110 G -0.54
C202 -0.54
Seafire IIC -0.71
Spit V -0.71
Spit I -0.81
P40E -0.88
A6M5 -1.05
109 E-4 -1.22
110 C -1.38
P40B -1.62
Hurri IIC -1.72
FM2 -1.86
A6M2 -1.89
Hurri IID -2.06
F4F -2.16
Hurri I -2.16
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Now do it for best top speed regardless of alt.
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Now do it for best top speed at regardless of alt.
You mean True Air Speed? That will range from altitudes of 12k-30k ft, which is a pretty wide sweep and I'm not sure how significant that data set would be.
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This should be easier to read:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/spit16chart1.jpg)
It matches all speeds save for the F4U1 (fastest of all F4u1 models, the 1/1A outruns the 1C/1D by at about 5-10mph)
Also note that WHILE it matches their top speed it can turn inside them by unimaginable leaps, and climbs ALMOST FIVE THOUSAND FEET PER MINUTE up to 8k, while chasing them down. Anywhere inside 800 it can kill or disable any other plane in front of it with a single hispano round (be it lucky or otherwise).
P.S. After the climb rate drops from almost 5000 fpm, it settles at a "modest" 4100 fpm or so all the way up to 20k, just about. Most planes in this game are proud if they make 3500 fpm at sea level, let alone 20,000 feet above it.
Taking it one step further let's explore some of the more common late war "monsters":
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/spit16chart2.jpg)
EDIT: Note the F4u1D only is faster than the spit16 below 2k, ram air effect or something. It drops significantly to match the spit16 up to the first peak then the spit16 is faster above this
Gee... I'm seeing a recurring pattern here. All but the FASTEST of planes will be chased down. Even those faster than it can and will be caught with the super acceleration rates the spit has, and even a slight dive will give the spit more speed than it ever should have, and it will keep said speed for ungodly long periods of time. I've caught fleeing P51Ds and LA7s in a spit16 before, all you need is to nose down.
Once you're in guns range and they break, well the fight's over then and there.
Edit: Fixed something I worded poorly
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You mean True Air Speed? That will range from altitudes of 12k-30k ft, which is a pretty wide sweep and I'm not sure how significant that data set would be.
Yes true air speed. We are allowed to fly at any alt I guess that would make it significant.
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Yes true air speed. We are allowed to fly at any alt I guess that would make it significant.
Oh yeah, you'll find me at 40k in my 47N. :lol Anyway, here ya go:
P47N 1.86
109 K-4 1.57
TA152 1.57
F4U-4 1.54
Spit XIV 1.49
P51B 1.38
P51D 1.25
P47D-11 1.04
190D-9 1.01
Tempest 1.01
P47D-25 0.99
P47D-40 0.99
P38J 0.69
P38L 0.69
F4U-1 0.56
F4U-1A 0.56
Spit IX 0.53
YAK 9U 0.53
F4U-1C 0.45
F4U-1D 0.45
190A-5 0.45
LA7 0.45
Spit XVI 0.45
Typhoon 0.45
109 G-14 0.40
109 G-2 0.37
C205 0.32
190A-8 0.32
190F-8 0.29
Spit VIII 0.27
P38G 0.19
109 F-4 0.05
109 G-6 0.00
KI84 -0.05
LA5 -0.05
F6F -0.21
P-39Q -0.29
Mossie -0.45
C202 -0.48
KI61 -0.58
110 G -0.61
N1K2 -0.61
Seafire IIC -0.61
Spit V -0.61
YAK 9T -0.74
P-39D -0.85
Spit I -0.90
P40E -1.11
A6M5 -1.14
109 E-4 -1.27
110 C -1.27
P40B -1.41
A6M2 -1.67
Hurri IIC -1.67
Hurri I -1.81
FM2 -1.88
Hurri IID -1.94
F4F -1.99
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Yes true air speed. We are allowed to fly at any alt I guess that would make it significant.
You want a comparison of TAS? Here's the TAS and climb rates at those alts for the last 4 planes I compared:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/spit16chart3.jpg)
Frankly, the spit16 holds all the cards considering the accleration and climb rate of the F4u1, which cancel out its few-mph-advantage.
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stupid stat posting twits! :furious The whole lot of ya couldn't balance my checkbook :P
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Oh yeah, you'll find me at 40k in my 47N. :lol Anyway, here ya go:
P47N 1.86
109 K-4 1.57
TA152 1.57
F4U-4 1.54
Spit XIV 1.49
P51B 1.38
P51D 1.25
P47D-11 1.04
190D-9 1.01
Tempest 1.01
P47D-25 0.99
P47D-40 0.99
P38J 0.69
P38L 0.69
F4U-1 0.56
F4U-1A 0.56
Spit IX 0.53
YAK 9U 0.53
F4U-1C 0.45
F4U-1D 0.45
190A-5 0.45
LA7 0.45
Spit XVI 0.45
Typhoon 0.45
109 G-14 0.40
109 G-2 0.37
C205 0.32
190A-8 0.32
190F-8 0.29
Spit VIII 0.27
P38G 0.19
109 F-4 0.05
109 G-6 0.00
KI84 -0.05
LA5 -0.05
F6F -0.21
P-39Q -0.29
Mossie -0.45
C202 -0.48
KI61 -0.58
110 G -0.61
N1K2 -0.61
Seafire IIC -0.61
Spit V -0.61
YAK 9T -0.74
P-39D -0.85
Spit I -0.90
P40E -1.11
A6M5 -1.14
109 E-4 -1.27
110 C -1.27
P40B -1.41
A6M2 -1.67
Hurri IIC -1.67
Hurri I -1.81
FM2 -1.88
Hurri IID -1.94
F4F -1.99
There are always a couple that skew the results. We discussed that point before.
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Why are 1940 aircraft even being included in a discussion of late war aircraft? They have no place there.
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Why are 1940 aircraft even being included in a discussion of late war aircraft? They have no place there.
Because they are part of the LW arena planeset?
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PERK THE P40! :noid
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Ah yes...this old debate.
If one were to sit back and look at what is perked and how ENY scoring is applied, a whole host of inconsistancies is sure to be quite obvious.
HTC seems to perk planes that dont need to be perked, not perk planes that probably need to be perked, apply high ENY (20<) to planes that do well and low ENY (15>) that do not do so well.
The Spit14 is the biggest "huh?" when it comes to perked planes.
The P47N is the biggest "wtf?" when it comes to low ENy planes (5 ENY).
The Fw190A-8 has to be the most under-rated killer in the game with a 31 ENY. Some will say the Bf109K-4.
As to what planes *should* be perked??? If one were to look at the actual **combat** capabilities of a plane and not the stats of the MA (which imo, are NOT completely condusive to rating a plane), planes like the La7 and Spit16 stand out amongst the crowd. The Nik2 "George" as well but to a lesser extent due to its top speed. No other plane can do what the La7 can do. It is amongst the fastest in the game, it accels very well, it turns well both sustained and stalled (top 3rd), and has the ability to mount 3/20mm cannons. It matters not that "newbs" fly the plane. The performance capabilities of the plane is what it is. As far as the Spit16 goes, it too is fast (the top speed can be misleading because it retains E very well and usually can catch "faster" planes that accel much slower or dont retain E as well), accels very well, rolls as well as any 190, divers well, turns very well, has dual 20mm and dual .50 cals with marginal ammo. No other plane can do as many things as well as the Spit16 can. The Spitfire Mk XVI is the light heavy-weight boxer that can mix it up vs the featherweights or can pound it out vs the super heavy-weights. Oh, and the Spit16 can carry 3/bombs for a 1k load, too. That is three dead tanks with still enough performance to evade/engage enemy air cons. Impressive. Am I calling for a "perk X plane"? Perhaps. If so, I'd suggest an ever so small 3-5 perk point be applied.
Also, take a look at what is currently perked: the CHog has 4/20mm cannons with truck loads of ammo. Otherwise, it isnt all that in the air. It climbs like grandma on the stairs and it accelerates like grandpa in a wheelchair. It has decent speed and a great dive ability. Yeah, it can turn amongst the best with much level pullin' and button pushin', but even then most planes can get inside before all the C-Hog's ideal flight perameters for turning are in place. But those guns... wow. So here we have a plane that is somewhat 1 dimensional that is perked (it is perked for one reason). Hmm. Just how often would a person pick the C-Hog over the Spit16 to dogfight in? I know I'd pick the Spit16. Who would pick the George over the C-Hog? I would.
My point is, no matter how many cross sections, stat comparisons, historical numbers, MA/DA/eetc numbers, public opinions, or FACTS that are thrown at HTC, they will do as they wish and the rest of us can study for hours and to "what and why" and simply waste our time.
The simple fact that HTC wont give any rhyme of reason for their inaccurate and inconsistant scoring system should shed some light on the matter.
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Loon, the XVI does not retain energy well. It has lots of positives, but that's not one of them. Perhaps you mean to say that it does not bleed much airspeed from a high g turn?
Here are the Z-scores for energy retention. Each plane was dove to 5k ft (I used a map with alt start), leveled off, and when it slowed to 400mph the engine was cut. Then I recorded the time to reach 150mph.
Mossie 3.22
P38L 2.71
P38J 2.70
P38G 2.50
110 G 2.39
110 C 2.13
P47N 0.68
P47D-25 0.57
P47D-40 0.56
P47D-11 0.47
F4U-1A 0.43
F4U-1 0.40
190F-8 0.39
F4U-1C 0.28
190A-8 0.26
F4U-1D 0.25
F6F 0.25
F4U-4 0.24
TA152 0.20
190A-5 0.13
LA7 -0.05
KI61 -0.06
P51D -0.06
P51B -0.11
190D-9 -0.20
LA5 -0.21
109 K-4 -0.27
Spit XIV -0.28
N1K2 -0.32
C205 -0.34
109 G-14 -0.36
C202 -0.38
109 G-6 -0.39
109 G-2 -0.44
109 F-4 -0.50
YAK 9T -0.51
KI84 -0.52
Spit VIII -0.55
Tempest -0.56
Typhoon -0.57
F4F -0.58
FM2 -0.60
P-39D -0.63
Spit IX -0.63
Spit XVI -0.63
P-39Q -0.66
109 E-4 -0.67
P40B -0.67
P40E -0.68
YAK 9U -0.71
Seafire IIC -0.73
Spit V -0.82
Spit I -0.92
Hurri IID -0.99
A6M5 -1.00
Hurri IIC -1.02
A6M2 -1.03
Hurri I -1.08
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Anax, once again, what does E-retention with the engine switched off have to do with anything practical sense? It does not MATTER if the reason a Spit16 zooms about as well as a Jug is weight/power ratio, all that matters is relative performance under realistic conditions, one realistic condition being that people usually fight with their engines running.
Loon, the XVI does not retain energy well. It has lots of positives, but that's not one of them. Perhaps you mean to say that it does not bleed much airspeed from a high g turn?
Here are the Z-scores for energy retention. Each plane was dove to 5k ft (I used a map with alt start), leveled off, and when it slowed to 400mph the engine was cut. Then I recorded the time to reach 150mph.
Mossie 3.22
P38L 2.71
P38J 2.70
P38G 2.50
110 G 2.39
110 C 2.13
P47N 0.68
P47D-25 0.57
P47D-40 0.56
P47D-11 0.47
F4U-1A 0.43
F4U-1 0.40
190F-8 0.39
F4U-1C 0.28
190A-8 0.26
F4U-1D 0.25
F6F 0.25
F4U-4 0.24
TA152 0.20
190A-5 0.13
LA7 -0.05
KI61 -0.06
P51D -0.06
P51B -0.11
190D-9 -0.20
LA5 -0.21
109 K-4 -0.27
Spit XIV -0.28
N1K2 -0.32
C205 -0.34
109 G-14 -0.36
C202 -0.38
109 G-6 -0.39
109 G-2 -0.44
109 F-4 -0.50
YAK 9T -0.51
KI84 -0.52
Spit VIII -0.55
Tempest -0.56
Typhoon -0.57
F4F -0.58
FM2 -0.60
P-39D -0.63
Spit IX -0.63
Spit XVI -0.63
P-39Q -0.66
109 E-4 -0.67
P40B -0.67
P40E -0.68
YAK 9U -0.71
Seafire IIC -0.73
Spit V -0.82
Spit I -0.92
Hurri IID -0.99
A6M5 -1.00
Hurri IIC -1.02
A6M2 -1.03
Hurri I -1.08
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Anax, once again, what does E-retention with the engine switched off have to do with anything practical sense? It does not MATTER if the reason a Spit16 zooms about as well as a Jug is weight/power ratio, all that matters is relative performance under realistic conditions, one realistic condition being that people usually fight with their engines running.
Dude, look at the thread in context. He claimed that the Spitfire XVI retains energy well, and I was just showing him that it doesn't.
The engine has to be shut off to accurately measure energy retention. Energy retention has practical effects on flight performance...we know that. Just because the way to test something is impractical for arena play doesn't make what is measured impractical.
The typical way to test firepower is to taxi to a hangar and shoot until it blows up. Is that practical for arena play? Heck no. But you don't see anyone questioning the merit of the test.
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Dude, look at the thread in context. He claimed that the Spitfire XVI retains energy well, and I was just showing him that it doesn't.
The engine has to be shut off to accurately measure energy retention. Energy retention has practical effects on flight performance...we know that. Just because the way to test something is impractical for arena play doesn't make what is measured impractical.
Sorry, I don't see how it is terribly important. How well a plane will zoom or how long it will retain excess speed in a flat-out run from a high-speed dive are what you need to know about relative performance. It little matters whether the plane you are fighting gets its vertical performance mainly from high mass/drag ratio or high thrust/weight ratio, since as far as I can tell they have about equal effects on zoom performance in the game.
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Sorry, I don't see how it is terribly important. How well a plane will zoom or how long it will retain excess speed in a flat-out run from a high-speed dive are what you need to know about relative performance. It little matters whether the plane you are fighting gets its vertical performance mainly from high mass/drag ratio or high thrust/weight ratio, since as far as I can tell they have about equal effects on zoom performance in the game.
That's the ticket.
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Loon, the XVI does not retain energy well. It has lots of positives, but that's not one of them. Perhaps you mean to say that it does not bleed much airspeed from a high g turn?
Here are the Z-scores for energy retention. Each plane was dove to 5k ft (I used a map with alt start), leveled off, and when it slowed to 400mph the engine was cut. Then I recorded the time to reach 150mph.
Mossie 3.22
P38L 2.71
P38J 2.70
P38G 2.50
110 G 2.39
110 C 2.13
P47N 0.68
P47D-25 0.57
P47D-40 0.56
P47D-11 0.47
F4U-1A 0.43
F4U-1 0.40
190F-8 0.39
F4U-1C 0.28
190A-8 0.26
F4U-1D 0.25
F6F 0.25
F4U-4 0.24
TA152 0.20
190A-5 0.13
LA7 -0.05
KI61 -0.06
P51D -0.06
P51B -0.11
190D-9 -0.20
LA5 -0.21
109 K-4 -0.27
Spit XIV -0.28
N1K2 -0.32
C205 -0.34
109 G-14 -0.36
C202 -0.38
109 G-6 -0.39
109 G-2 -0.44
109 F-4 -0.50
YAK 9T -0.51
KI84 -0.52
Spit VIII -0.55
Tempest -0.56
Typhoon -0.57
F4F -0.58
FM2 -0.60
P-39D -0.63
Spit IX -0.63
Spit XVI -0.63
P-39Q -0.66
109 E-4 -0.67
P40B -0.67
P40E -0.68
YAK 9U -0.71
Seafire IIC -0.73
Spit V -0.82
Spit I -0.92
Hurri IID -0.99
A6M5 -1.00
Hurri IIC -1.02
A6M2 -1.03
Hurri I -1.08
Did you reduce rpm to minimize prop drag?
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No.
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No.
IMO you should try. This would minimize the props drag effect and get a better estimate on an airframe's E retention.
Edit : IIRC twin engine ac auto feather the prop when the engine is off. Thus minimizing prop drag.
Notice the top ones on this latest list.
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At the point where HTC perked the F4U-1C almost half off all sorties flown were in the 1c.
Not to mention that it had as I remember over half of all kills as well.
I'm sure Lusche can come up with the official numbers if someone really wants them.
At no point since release has the spit 16 or La7 even come close to those numbers.
In point of fact, NO plane has ever really approached those numbers again. Now if the tempest had been released unperked, yes it might have given the 1C a run for top marks. But with its lower ammo count, and limited turn, I doubt it.
If it had been up to me, I'd of either left the spit 16 out of the plane set, or set it with a light perk.
As it did make some game play changes that were not for the better IMHO. Planes in the middle of the pack, that could outrun the turners, and out turn the runners suddenly had a new bad boy on the block to fear. One that did everything just a bit better, and climbed better to boot!
The La7 never really affected gameplay other than pony's learned not to be low and slow, which was not healthy for them before anyway. The La7 has balancing characteristics that help self limit it. Those are not hispano 20mm's and they don't shoot like it. They don't pack the same punch, they don't have the flat ballastics, and they are not near as good at longer range. It has no ability to carry drop tanks, and the fuel burn makes it mostly useless for long range attacks. None of which is true for the spit 16.
What I propose, seeing as how HTC has the ability to do nifty pop up polls.
Is first run a poll to see which plane most would like to see perked.
Top choices could be Spit 16, La7, 190D9, 109K4, etc.
Second run a poll to see how high, 1 perk, 3 perks, 5 perks etc.
Power to the people! Viva la Revolution!
Give the people a chance once a year to have an effect on what planes are perked.
Who knows, it might be good for business!
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i do see where you taking this ghosth. If there anything i see more often in spit IIX, IX or XVI. But i do die from the spit XVI the most. La 7 are not that hard to fight. you just need to know when engaged it and when not.
I say that HiTech should do a poll on what should be perk and how much.
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IMO you should try. This would minimize the props drag effect and get a better estimate on an airframe's E retention.
Edit : IIRC twin engine ac auto feather the prop when the engine is off. Thus minimizing prop drag.
Notice the top ones on this latest list.
Now that's news to me. I'll experiment and see what sort of difference it makes.
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Dude, look at the thread in context. He claimed that the Spitfire XVI retains energy well, and I was just showing him that it doesn't.
The engine has to be shut off to accurately measure energy retention. Energy retention has practical effects on flight performance...we know that. Just because the way to test something is impractical for arena play doesn't make what is measured impractical.
The typical way to test firepower is to taxi to a hangar and shoot until it blows up. Is that practical for arena play? Heck no. But you don't see anyone questioning the merit of the test.
Rating an aircraft on energy retention without using its engine(s) is like measuring the talent of marathon runner based on their hieght and weight. The engine capability of an aircraft is just as important as the flight dynamics of the frame, etc. when masuring "E" retention. Being able to convert that "E" into an extended climb (or other such transfer of "E" to X performance) needs more cowbell to power it through. Otherwise, the Spit16 could extend as well as it does regardless of the engine it has. Care to debate that point?
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Okay, I'll vote 1st.
P-51 25 perks. :O
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ghost, back when the f4u1c was perked there were half as many planes in the game. Meaning any one plane then had 2x as much players flying and killing in it as they do now. Variety is the spice of life, and folks branch out.
They sure as hell weren't doing it with spitfire-turn capabilities like the recent F4Us enjoy, either.
Also, consider that the arenas were NOT split up at that time. That affects the plane choice a lot. Further more there was no ENY limitations.
Now, if you think back to when the spit 16 was first introduced, it and the spit8 together topped out at THE plane with the most kills, and together?
Together the both of them probably came closer to the 20% kill ratio of the chog than any other plane before or since.
Splitting up the arenas has skewed the way the logs record things now, so comparing things to the old chog perking does not compute anymore. It's comparing apples and fig newtons. You want to even remotely compare apples to oranges and you have to go back in the logs before the arenas were split, before major ENY experiments HTC ran, before a lot of things that royally screwed with who chose what plane and when they flew it.
That doesn't negate the effectiveness of the spit16/8. Just shows a more accurate representation of its killing power and how much it was used, in comparison to the Chog.
Tour 70, first time the plane is introduced:
Spitfire Mk XVI has 41468 Kills of All models
Spitfire Mk VIII has 8417 Kills of All models
Let's compare that to the kings of the hill at the time:
La-7 has 30066 Kills of All models
P-51D has 20541 Kills of All models
N1K2 has 27844 Kills of All models
(all other models SIGNIFICANTLY lower numbers)
Note the spits didn't even have the full tour to accumulate these kills in, while the rest of the planes DID. They got more kills in less time than the top-3 undisputed MA kings.
Let's check the next tour.
Tour 71:
Spitfire Mk XVI has 43991 Kills of All models
Spitfire Mk VIII has 7679 Kills of All models
Let's see how that stacks up to the kings of the hill:
La-7 has 36721 Kills of All models
N1K2 has 30031 Kills of All models
P-51D has 25776 Kills of All models
This is back when the La and the N1k flew a lot more like spit5s on steroids, were even more potent than they are NOW.
Going waaaay back to when the Chog roamed free, tour 12 was its highest month. Before this it averaged between 11000 and 15000 kills. Then from Tour 12 to Tour 16 it saw most of its use and was perked shortly after.
Tour 12:
F4U-1C has 39515 Kills of All models (later tours this dropped 10-15 thousand kills until it was perked)
Other kings of the hill at that time (note, LA7 didn't exist):
N1K2 has 18534 Kills of All models
F6F-5 has 12535 Kills of All models
P-51D has 12225 Kills of All models
So, even with MORE CHOICES NOW, where pilots branch out from limited planesets, the spits 16/8 had MORE KILLS than the old Chog. This means that the spits are even MORE lethal than the old Chog was.
I've just counted the number of fighters available when the Chog was roaming free. 23 planes. Only 23 choices of what to fly, and 1 plane in those 23 earned 39,515 kills. In tour 71, when the spits had a full tour to prove themselves, there were 56 fighters to choose from. The more planes you have, the less pilots fly any given plane. Players will spread out to other rides for reasons too many to count. An equillibrium will be reached, of sorts. To come close to the overpowering effect the chog has on the arenas (when only 1/2 as many planes were available), you'd probably only need HALF as many kills as it ever did (with 2x as many plane choices that means less players are still making just as much trouble as before), yet the spits have MORE than the chog ever did.
They were twice as disruptive as the Chog **EVER** was. You'd go into a fight and see 5 spits and a n1k2 most times back then. Nowadays it's still seeing 3 spits and a f4u1a. Please note again the effectiveness/lethality of these rides has not diminished since day 1, only the way the scores are recorded and the ENY limitations since then have changed.
If either plane was around at the time the Chog was available, they would most likely have been perked more than it was. Can you imagine a spit16 in tour 12?No high-boosted spit5 (that came later), the spit9 was hardly used (pulling in 10,000 kills compared to the others listed above), the chog's main advantages were speed and guns because they didn't turn anywhere nearly as well as they do today. The spit16 has the same top speed as the chog, better turning, better roll, equally effective weapons, comparable internal fuel range, better handling in almost every extreme of the flight envelope, oh and it's unperked! Take a look at what it would come up against:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/tour12.jpg)
And yet today, they remain unperked. If you ask me they more than beg to be perked with a 5-point pricetag.
I make no difference between the 16 and 8 spit variants because they are only a few mph off from each other, still climb faster than every other plane in the game up to absurd heights, and still carry the 2 most lethal 20mm cannons in the game that can kill enemies out to 800-1000 yards with a single ping. On top of that the turning radius is very similar for the both of them. They are, in the case of perking spits, the same ride. You can't perk the spit16 without perking the 8, nor can you perk the 8 without the 16. They both get perked, is the only satisfactory result.
Nor is unperking the spit14 a valid argument, just because the newer rides (which perform so much better) are unperked. Rather that argument should be made to reinforce the idea of a small perk price on both spit16/8 models.
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How can you possibly compare the number of kills from tour 12 to a much later tour where there were probably a thousand or more paying subscribers than in 12? You can't, you have to use the percentages or show all the planes and their kills and then we can figgure it out. My intuition tells me you are waaaaay off base in your assumptions Krusty.
Lusche!!
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How can you possibly compare the number of kills from tour 12 to a much later tour where there were probably a thousand or more paying subscribers than in 12?
The real question is: Of those players, how many flew only 1-2 hours per tour? Of the more players now, how many are shades, how many are idle as players wait for new features.
I'm willing to bet the hours played were SIGNIFICANTLY less back then, compared to the hours played now, meaning there theoretically should be more time in each frame to reach a balance, an equillibrium of kills, and yet the spit16/8 combo still outstripped all opposition in tour 71. It's a better sampling of the playerbase, but as far as samples go, it's still pretty damning evidence that the spit16/8 combo blows away the best score the chog ever had (note that 39515 was the max, average over 5-6 tours was 20-25 thousand only)
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The real question is: Of those players, how many flew only 1-2 hours per tour? Of the more players now, how many are shades, how many are idle as players wait for new features.
I'm willing to bet the hours played were SIGNIFICANTLY less back then, compared to the hours played now, meaning there theoretically should be more time in each frame to reach a balance, an equillibrium of kills, and yet the spit16/8 combo still outstripped all opposition in tour 71. It's a better sampling of the playerbase, but as far as samples go, it's still pretty damning evidence that the spit16/8 combo blows away the best score the chog ever had (note that 39515 was the max, average over 5-6 tours was 20-25 thousand only)
You need to state total kills registered in the LW's in both time frames so a percentage can be seen. Without the total # of kills of all planes. This data is meaningless.
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You need to state total kills registered in the LW's in both time frames so a percentage can be seen. Without the total # of kills of all planes. This data is meaningless.
Exactly, there's no context or comparability in the numbers he posted.
And Krusty you think people playes less back then? lol. Less players, but I guarantee you the per-player hours logged were almost identical. This is an addiction you know...
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Care to debate that point?
No, I do not. At least, not until you cease to make up your own, personal notion of "energy."
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Krusty, don't hurt your own argument by saying the VIII should be perked with the XVI. The XVI has enough small advantages over the VIII to be treated separately, especially with its 400mph roll rate.
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Rating an aircraft on energy retention without using its engine(s) is like measuring the talent of marathon runner based on their hieght and weight. The engine capability of an aircraft is just as important as the flight dynamics of the frame, etc. when masuring "E" retention. Being able to convert that "E" into an extended climb (or other such transfer of "E" to X performance) needs more cowbell to power it through. Otherwise, the Spit16 could extend as well as it does regardless of the engine it has. Care to debate that point?
Really... Lets take the same power plant and put it in 2 different air frames. One with a cleaner air frame and one that is a bit draggier. Given all other things being equal what one will slow faster engine off and rpms reduced?
I'll make an assumption that the AC that takes more time to slow has better E retention.
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No, I do not. At least, not until you cease to make up your own, personal notion of "energy."
Sustainable momentum? How about that? The capabilities of an engine is just as much to be desired when configuring the ability to hold onto the "E" after the source of the boost, in this case usually a dive, is terminated.
"E", as you want to declare and what I want to declare and what it is is the same thing. How long can an aircraft hold onto the Mountain Dew buzz after the can of finished? THAT is the question.
If one really wants to measure "E" retention, here is my suggestion: Take the aricraft to 10k, dive at a 45d angle to 450mph (no WEP), hit "auto pilot", and count down until the aircraft reaches normal (non WEP) max speed for that altitude (target alt for level fight would be appx 5k?). That would give each aircraft the ability to use its engine and airframe qualities to the max. Obviously, the altitudes in which the different fighters will level off at will vary due to the individual flight characteristics and abilities of the aircraft to sustain those stresses. Although... it does measure THAT aircrafts ability to extend with the added "E" boost regardless.
However it is done, not taking into consideration the capabilities of the engines of so far from how those planes perform in game that doing so... is a waste of time other than for comparisons sake of the airframes... which... how often do two engine-less aircraft duel in AH2? ;)
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How can you possibly compare the number of kills from tour 12 to a much later tour where there were probably a thousand or more paying subscribers than in 12? You can't, you have to use the percentages or show all the planes and their kills and then we can figgure it out. My intuition tells me you are waaaaay off base in your assumptions Krusty.
Lusche!!
You have called?
(http://www.themonstermash.com/igor2.gif)
Ok here we go:
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/512/12bx0.jpg)
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1601/108wv9.jpg)
I have applied the same scale to both graphs.
You folks can now continue with your debate :)
Oh, and just for comparision, a look at Early War:
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9964/ew108ob2.jpg)
And please note the Hurricane II has a K/D of 2.15 (!) while being at the top. And no, it's not perked.. it even has an ENY of 10 only. :confused:
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Thanks, no need to point out anything but the graphs.
You may go now, Lusche.
:D
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Well out the the best in their field all are perked, example, A2A, A2G, G2G, except G2A witch is wirble is not perked. :noid
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Awesome work Lusche!
Looks to me like you guys are barking up the wrong tree. Its the D pony you should be complaining about, and trying to get perked.
ROFLMAO
And yes, perk the Hurri IIc in early war, lower its ENY.
Unperked in midwar, but hold its low ENY.
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oh gee! the p51 is at #1 as it has been for over 6 months now, what a surprise! the cries of overuse and demands of perking the p51 on this board are overwhelming. :lol
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Awesome work Lusche!
Looks to me like you guys are barking up the wrong tree. Its the D pony you should be complaining about, and trying to get perked.
ROFLMAO
And yes, perk the Hurri IIc in early war, lower its ENY.
Unperked in midwar, but hold its low ENY.
What he said!!
(cept louder)
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hehe... graphs and charts can tell any story one wants them to tell. To me, that graph tells me that the P51D made the most kills because it obviously was in the air more. Check those stats.
Now... compare with that graph that Lusche provided along side how often the P51D was used in ratio to other aircraft. :aok
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hehe... graphs and charts can tell any story one wants them to tell. To me, that graph tells me that the P51D made the most kills because it obviously was in the air more. Check those stats.
Well.. P-51D had a K/D of 1.15, Spit XVI 1.05 .. so it died less often per kill in addition to getting more kills absolute
K+D: P-51D 89,468 Spit XVI 63,216
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ok, despit what the charts say, why eals should the pony be perk? you really got to sell this over the spit xvi.
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ok, despit what the charts say, why eals should the pony be perk? you really got to sell this over the spit xvi.
In my opinion, none of them should be perked. There is no reason, because both are not unbalancing gameplay in any way.
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In my opinion, none of them should be perked. There is no reason, because both are not unbalancing gameplay in any way.
The meaning of that word is so ambiguous and fought over, I'm almost ready to insist that you use a different term. I've asked many times for a good definition of "unbalancing" and never got a coherent one beyond "deserving to be perked." ;)
For one thing, we know that unbalancing does not mean "responsible for x % of kills+deaths," unbalancing is not the same thing as frequent use, and neither is it use plus a certain K/D ratio.
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The meaning of that word is so ambiguous and fought over, I'm almost ready to insist that you use a different term. I've asked many times for a good definition of "unbalancing" and never got a coherent one beyond "deserving to be perked." ;)
For one thing, we know that unbalancing does not mean "responsible for x % of kills+deaths," unbalancing is not the same thing as frequent use, and neither is it use plus a certain K/D ratio.
It's just the same vague term as HTC is using :)
If you are looking for a definite, rationale definition, a formula that you can use to absolutely compute unbalancing... you won't find that. :)
K+D, K/D, plane performance stats are no absolutes either. To me, they are just tools to form a final opinion. The whole matter is far too complex for a simple formula.
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I don't need a formula, just the meaning of the word explained, because from my common understanding of the word I see lots of stuff in the arena that's "unbalancing" every day I fly.
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i'm unbalancing perk me :D
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I don't need a formula, just the meaning of the word explained, because from my common understanding of the word I see lots of stuff in the arena that's "unbalancing" every day I fly.
Examples? :devil
Naw, not really... I don't need them, I didn't want to participate in this thread at all. Did allow me getting sucked into it (Curse you Stang!). ;)
I'm out. Theres a cake in the kitchen, waiting to be baked :D
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Examples? :devil
I knew you would test me! :D
Here's the biggest offender, in my humble opinion:
The use of heavy bombers to kamikazi carriers and carpet bomb tank battles. It's a crudely effective tool that often can't be stopped before the job is done. I would call this "unbalancing."
Another candidate: the lack of a shore battery at some of the airfields in Trinity (I'm talking about you A164!).
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Another issue in deciding if a certain plane should be perked is its "sporting chance" factor.
We inhabit an arena where most people have no problem turning a 3 on 1 into a 4 or 10 on 1. Since the community isn't charitable enough to give a guy a sporting chance, he ought to at least have a few free plane options that will give himself one, like the La-7 and Spit XVI.
People always talk about how many windows, monitors, joysticks, and cats have met their end because of these planes. Few stop to think about how many were saved because of them.
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More "unbalancing" candidates:
The cheap price of the M4.
The softness of ordinance bunkers. A single fighter can suicide-strafe them down to shut down the offensive capability of a base for a significant duration of time, which alters the gameplay options for dozens of players.
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Fwiw, I don't think I've ever called the Spitfire XVI "unbalancing" in the sense of the word I've used above. My reason for it to have a small perk is simply that its performance stats, weighted for what makes an effective arena aircraft, compare favorably with other aircraft that are already perked. If I've ever called it "unbalancing" it's in the sense of the word "aircraft whose performance merits a perk price." ;)
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In my opinion, none of them should be perked. There is no reason, because both are not unbalancing gameplay in any way.
I do resecpt that but i cant buy it. i am with Anaxogoras on the word "unbalancing".
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I knew you would test me! :D
Here's the biggest offender, in my humble opinion:
The use of heavy bombers to kamikazi carriers and carpet bomb tank battles. It's a crudely effective tool that often can't be stopped before the job is done. I would call this "unbalancing."
Another candidate: the lack of a shore battery at some of the airfields in Trinity (I'm talking about you A164!).
More "unbalancing" candidates:
The cheap price of the M4.
The softness of ordinance bunkers. A single fighter can suicide-strafe them down to shut down the offensive capability of a base for a significant duration of time, which alters the gameplay options for dozens of players.
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Fwiw, I don't think I've ever called the Spitfire XVI "unbalancing" in the sense of the word I've used above. My reason for it to have a small perk is simply that its performance stats, weighted for what makes an effective arena aircraft, compare favorably with other aircraft that are already perked. If I've ever called it "unbalancing" it's in the sense of the word "aircraft whose performance merits a perk price." ;)
Why would you consider any of that "unbalanced game play"?
Dive bombing CVs and carpet bombing GV battles is "lame" game play, but it doesn't unbalance anything. If everytime a CV was spotted and some lancs divebombed it in 5 minutes of the sighting, then yes it would be unbalancing the game play. While it does happen, it doesn't happen all the time. The same with the GV battles.
A missing gun doesn't unbalance anything, it just makes it a bit harder to defend. If a major portion of the bases along the coast didn't have guns and it was one of the island hopping maps, well then it might be unbalanced.
M4's if they were over running the maps like cockroaches then yes it would be unbalanced, but they are not. Ammo may be too soft, but they can be resupplied with a few runs with field supplies.
Unbalance game play is like when they first brought in the C hog. The "majority" of people who were playing at the time were in the C hog. Thats over 50% of the people playing! In todays numbers that would be like 350 C hogs flying "Titanic Tuesday" :O Thats a bit unbalanced.
Todays game play isn't unbalanced, it just full of lame game play by people who don't know any better.
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Am i one of them "lame game play by people who don't know any better".
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Am i one of them "lame game play by people who don't know any better".
....well if the shoe fits...... :D
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....well if the shoe fits...... :D
:rofl
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....well if the shoe fits...... :D
:rofl Well i assure you this. I don't dive bomb in a lanc, diso on purpose after i release my ords in a bomber, purposely ram ppl, or spawn camp.
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Krusty, don't hurt your own argument by saying the VIII should be perked with the XVI. The XVI has enough small advantages over the VIII to be treated separately, especially with its 400mph roll rate.
I disagree. The spitfires already retain too much E as-is, they can reach and sustain what are IMO unhistorical speeds. I had a spit9 dive on my f4u4 and I was diving away already. He followed me to the deck, closing. I was pushing almost 500mph and he was still able to roll to stay behind me.
Spits don't use high speed as defensive moves. They use it as attack moves (chase, dive, pick, etc). To evade anybody they just (out)turn them. Roll rates at 400mph are mostly defensive things, and as a person who's flown more than his fair share of 190s, I never really found it all that useful at higher speeds. It's the low speeds that roll rate is more important, for scissors and such.
Oh, and.... Don't get me started on the BS that is "bombers" in this game!!
They are the B-1B stealth bombers of modern times, outrunning most fighters, no engine overheat, airframes WAY too sturdy, pulling BS manuvers, taking 25% fuel so they can accelerate, climb, and run faster than they EVER could historically, and they can enter an enemy radar at 15k, bomb the field, and be out the other side of the radar inside 5 minutes or LESS, in which time most planes can't take off and even climb up to them, let alone get up to speed to chase. They are nearly unstoppable surprise bombers, which is 1,000% a-historical for these big formation-enabled behemoths.
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They are the B-1B stealth bombers of modern times, outrunning most fighters, no engine overheat, airframes WAY too sturdy, pulling BS manuvers, taking 25% fuel so they can accelerate, climb, and run faster than they EVER could historically, and they can enter an enemy radar at 15k, bomb the field, and be out the other side of the radar inside 5 minutes or LESS, in which time most planes can't take off and even climb up to them, let alone get up to speed to chase. They are nearly unstoppable surprise bombers, which is 1,000% a-historical for these big formation-enabled behemoths.
Lets not forget dive bomb on CVs. May be we should perk all Bomber that carry a huge payload.
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Perking them is not the complete answer. Their performance is very unhistorically super-powered. Need some more limitations on the game engine, and I don't expect those to arrive anytime soon.
Some other folks have suggested stop-gap measures to help, such as losing drones if you fly above certain speeds, shortening drone "leash" length so that any radical manuvering loses your drones instantly (none of this immelman-and-keep-your-drones crap).
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Uhm.. mediocre top speed (ranked #26 with WEP on the deck)? Fragile wings?
It holds speed very well and you don't need to stress the wings beyond their limit to out maneuver pretty much anything in the game. The aircraft with the best energy retention are the Mosquito, P-38 and 110 series.
what?? The mossie and 110 are nowhere near the top of the E retention scale.
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you don't need to stress the wings beyond their limit to out maneuver pretty much anything in the game.
Maybe I should have said "susceptible to enemy fire". Spit wings are falling easliy off when getting hit.
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Which is pretty mitigated by its ability to dance around in evasives, a lot better than nearly all planes in the game.
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Which is pretty mitigated by its ability to dance around in evasives, a lot better than nearly all planes in the game.
O would see that the other way 'round: The abiltity to dance is somewhat being mitigated by the fact it doesn't need much to de-wing it. ;)
(And keep in mind that my initial comment on this was especially aimed at the "The Spit has no weakness" remark.)
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It cancels out. I can't think of a more survivable plane in the game, outside of avoiding fights altogether (e.g. P51D or Me262 warp5 "survivability").
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Still waiting on teh Krusty film. :aok
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The mossie and 110 are nowhere near the top of the E retention scale.
I assume by "E retention" you mean the ability of e.g. a Spitfire to pull a high g turn and barely slow down. What I tested for was basic kinetic energy retention without power: I dove each plane to 400mph, shut off the engine and used a stopwatch to time the deceleration to 150mph. In these tests all the twin engine aircraft were superior to any single engine aircraft, however, bronk has brought it to my attention that they may not be that superior. It may be that twin engine aircraft in AH auto-feather the props when you switch the engines off, which the single engine aircraft don't do. I'm yet to test this and determine if it's so.
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I don't see how off-power glide is really relevant in the scope of ENY.
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I don't see how off-power glide is really relevant in the scope of ENY.
I made that point as well, moot. It is like pushing Lance Armstrong down the hill on his bike and seeing how far he'll coast and calling him good.
And as far as retaining "E", the Mossie does it very well. One can only gather that the light weight, powerful dual engines, and airframe characteristics lend to its ability to do so well. Matter of fact, my squaddie and I did a test not all that long ago. He followed me into a 45d dive in his Spit9 until I reached 450mph and then I pulled up sharp enough (he followed) that the beginning stages of blackout set in and went almost stright up. I had near %50 fuel, no ords (had been used vs gv's), he had near %100. Guess who stalled out first?
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I don't see how off-power glide is really relevant in the scope of ENY.
Agreed. How well a plane performs as a projectile may be academically interesting, but its how well it retains energy when it has both mass AND thrust working in its favor is what matters in any practical sense.
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Don't conflate the practicality of a test with what it measures.
True Air Speed certainly has a role to play for ENY, but no one questions it despite its irrelevance for practical play.
What I see here is that you all want "energy" to mean energy + thrust, and maybe even induced drag thrown in there, too. You can define it that way if you want, but then it's a different word.
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The mossie's not a great zoomer.. It does about as well as a P47, without the good very high speed retention. It bleeds E very quick under maneuvers.
Anaxagoras, the point of ENY is to gauge lethality and how hard it is to kill / survive plane X. Gliding around off power is very far down the list of useful attributes for that criteria.
I don't see what you mean with the TAS bit.
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The mossie's not a great zoomer.. It does about as well as a P47, without the good very high speed retention. It bleeds E very quick under maneuvers.
Anaxagoras, the point of ENY is to gauge lethality and how hard it is to kill / survive plane X. Gliding around off power is very far down the list of useful attributes for that criteria.
I don't see what you mean with the TAS bit.
I mean, HTC sees the high-alt TAS of the 152, 47N and Spitfire XIV as having a role to play in ENY, even though none of these aircraft reach that potential in the arena.
As for energy retention, the power-off glide is the only way to isolate it for measurement. The pure energy retention of an aircraft is always at work in conjunction with other factors during powered flight.
What most here call "energy retention" is more like low induced-drag or aspect ratio, the factors that determine the ability to make a high G turn with minimal speed bleed-off.
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Edit: I just thought of a good example of how important pure energy retention can be: the BoB scenarios we run and the preeminence of the 110C. Even though the Spitfire is faster on paper, RAF pilots complain constantly about not being able to catch the 110C. The reason for that is because the 110C holds dive speed after leveling off for far longer than the Spitfire Mk I.
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They do get opportunity for use up there more than occasionaly. The La7 & co get trashed up there, so the ENY credit for high alt performance isn't undue.
That it's hard to measure something doesn't mean it loses relevance. Energy retention is energy retention. Composed of all its parts: in turns, in zooms, etc. General notion = sum of its specific cases.
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I'm ok with it being a term of convenience, but doesn't it become ambiguous when "energy retention" is used interchangeably for the ability to hold speed after a dive and the ability to hold speed in a high g turn? The responsible factors couldn't be more different.
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It doesnt really matter. It comes down the same thing in practice, as far as tactical maneuvering is concerned. It's a completely utilitarian metric. "Does the plane stay fast in the full spectrum of maneuvers it's expected to make?"
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It doesnt really matter. It comes down the same thing in practice, as far as tactical maneuvering is concerned. It's a completely utilitarian metric. "Does the plane stay fast in the full spectrum of maneuvers it's expected to make?"
Ok, I will agree to this terminology, on the condition that no one here corrects me with my own reasoning in the future. ;)
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Off power glide doesnt weigh anywhere near as much as powered speed retention in any/all maneuvering does, for ENY purposes.
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The abwility to dump E can be vewy, vewy, important.. hahahaahha.
Or the lack there of. :noid
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The abwility to dump E can be vewy, vewy, important.. hahahaahha.
Or the lack there of. :noid
Yes, but it is more important in the AHII mains than perhaps it should be because so many come in hell bent for leather for the shot, without the patience or knowledge to use a repositioning maneuver should the defender dump E radically.
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Perking them is not the complete answer. Their performance is very unhistorically super-powered. Need some more limitations on the game engine, and I don't expect those to arrive anytime soon.
Some other folks have suggested stop-gap measures to help, such as losing drones if you fly above certain speeds, shortening drone "leash" length so that any radical manuvering loses your drones instantly (none of this immelman-and-keep-your-drones crap).
I too get real piss how people fly the bombers beoynd its cabapalbility. There need to be something done that limited there ability like dive bomb lanc on CV.
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People keep harping on dive bombing lancs on CVs. It's not really the problem.
Retards park CVs 1 tile offshore of an enemy field and try to get as much of a horde or a swarm of vulchers as they can.
Then you get 8+ dweebs in over-powered, laser-accurate 5" puffy ack that can nail you out past visual icon range, and there's no way to even get close to the fleet. Historically dive bombing worked. In this game? You can't even get within 50K of a fleet in a fighter, heavy or not. But you can get right over one in a set of bombers.
Bombers are sinking CVs mostly nowadays because the game balance screws up ANY other method for killing them.
Don't blame the lancasters, the b26s, etc, for being the only thing that can kill a CV these days.
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Yup just blame the fun police :) It's the same as taking out all the hangars. Now on the other hand if the cv group is trying to take out the base and capture it..... all bets are off. An eye for an eye.
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the cv's are almost impossible like navy pilots did it-it is more like the attempt the torpedo bombers did at midway.I would love being able to do it historically correct.As far as close,here recently me and a couple of squaddies sit on the beach and were hitting the cv with tanks and sunk it