Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Bubbajj on March 30, 2009, 12:40:36 AM
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Hello all. I've been spending a lot of time in DA trying to learn how to use my new CH pedals. When I manage to get a 1v1 at a remote field, we agree on no HO'ing. Ok, so the merge is guns cold but from there I seem to be meeting some disagreement. After the merge, if I get my nose around first for a solution before my dueling partner I feel no obligation to hold fire. A HO to me is both planes have an equivalent solution on one another thereby nullifying the pass. HEAD ON meaning neither plane has obtained a superior guns solution on the opposing plane. Now if I get around first and get guns on but my opponent DOES NOT have a solution on me, even thought it will often be a very acute angle shot on my part, but still with no opposing guns solution on me. Some are calling the acute angle front shot a HO. IM seening the top or bottom surfaces of the opposing aircraft meaning to me that they haven't got guns on. To me both planes have to have guns on each other to be legitimately called a HO. In some aircraft, like a P40, you don't get a lot of chances to gain angles and I'll take a close angle shot every time. FROM MY SEAT THE OPPOSING CRAFT CANNOT SHOOT ME BECAUSE I AM OUT OF THEIR GUNPLANE. Have I been doing this all wrong or are people just getting pissed that I'm getting around faster and getting the shot first? Help me out here.
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If the other plane COULD have gotten guns on you, but chose to maneuver out of it, yet you chose to pursue it and shot, that could be considered a HO.
If only one plane has a potential gun solution it isn't a HO.
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If the other plane COULD have gotten guns on you, but chose to maneuver out of it, yet you chose to pursue it and shot, that could be considered a HO.
If only one plane has a potential gun solution it isn't a HO.
:aok
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after the initial merge in a 1v1, HO is thrown out and all is fair game. there has to be a merge when 2 planes are approching on and intersecting heading. after the merge it's each pilots responsibility to avoid any type of shot whether from 12 o' clock or 6 o' clock.
i guess some people think a slight angles advantage is not enough, and you have to be saddled on the cons 6 before firing...
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If the other plane COULD have gotten guns on you, but chose to maneuver out of it, yet you chose to pursue it and shot, that could be considered a HO.
If only one plane has a potential gun solution it isn't a HO.
Yup.
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after the initial merge in a 1v1, HO is thrown out and all is fair game.
uhhh no. A HO is a HO regardless of what merge it is taken on. Attempt to rewrite a definition that has been around for years: DENIED
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after the initial merge in a 1v1, HO is thrown out and all is fair game. there has to be a merge when 2 planes are approching on and intersecting heading. after the merge it's each pilots responsibility to avoid any type of shot whether from 12 o' clock or 6 o' clock.
i guess some people think a slight angles advantage is not enough, and you have to be saddled on the cons 6 before firing...
Often enough it falls out in a similar airplane duel that both airplanes will find themselves in a position from which either could put the nose on the other plane and fire, and neither plane has ton of energy available for HO evasion maneuvers.
Now in this situation, both could choose to HO, which in AHII is basically mutually assured destruction for both planes. Coin toss decides who gets the "kill". Or they could both call that pass a wash and continue to work for a more valid guns solution.
Or one joker can choose to HO while his opponent tries to duck instead of returning the HO and claim "victory" if he succeeds.
You tell me which behavior is more sensible and sporting in a gentlemanly 1v1 in the DA.
Now, in the heat of battle does the line between high-deflection and a head-on get blurry? You bet.
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The only definition with which you will find consensus among the player base is:
a girl/woman predisposed to a certain moral flexibility and/or harlotry.
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uhhh no. A HO is a HO regardless of what merge it is taken on. Attempt to rewrite a definition that has been around for years: DENIED
i'm not saying it's not a HO. just saying anything goes.
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You tell me which behavior is more sensible and sporting in a gentlemanly 1v1 in the DA.
be a gentleman. but if you got joked, take it like a man.
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There's no point in taking a HO in the DA. As far as I'm concerned the longer the fight, the happier I am. I didn't think I was HOing by taking the tight frontal shot given that the other plane couldn't get guns on. It seems that that is the concensus here as well.
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be a gentleman. but if you got joked, take it like a man.
joked = cheap shot? Fight 'like a man' if it's a 1 on 1 in the DA.
Most regular duelers will merge head on without firing any number of times before one or the other slips up. Thats the challenge of a 1 on 1 fight otherwise its just a 1 on 1 kill.
In the MA i agree with you, all bets are off. There are very few merges in the MA.
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Right back in your face steve!
Dunno when you arrived, but back in beta a HO was both planes nose to nose from a significant distance.
And the reason it has a stigma attached is because it takes virtually no skill to do.
A front quarter shot in the middle of a turn fight is a whole nother ball game. If both planes are manuvering, then its NOT a HO.
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If the other plane COULD have gotten guns on you, but chose to maneuver out of it, yet you chose to pursue it and shot, that could be considered a HO.
If only one plane has a potential gun solution it isn't a HO.
This is why I always say.... "Its ALWAYS my fault if I get HOed" and seriously I mean it 100%... There is always a way out of a HO and you always have the choise to get out of it.
Most pilots will whine when ever they loose a HO situation. Imho it is ok to be upset about looseing but most of the whining is focused on the other pilot when all of it should be focused on one self. Its never the other pilots fault that you die to a HO, its always your own for letting it happen.
The HO is so easy to avoid its not like you get out flown by some ace that manouvers his plane like a bat out of hell. Avoiding a HO is as simple as landing a plane.
Tex
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If you are lead turning so damn early I can see your plane from nose to tail, you better believe I am going to take the shot. To do otherwise would voluntarily surrender initial angles and (more often than not) the fight.
Otherwise, I try not to fire on the initial merge.
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If the other plane COULD have gotten guns on you, but chose to maneuver out of it, yet you chose to pursue it and shot, that could be considered a HO.
If only one plane has a potential gun solution it isn't a HO.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that is how i generally die to a ho.....when i maneuver away from it. then the other guy claims it wasn't a ho, since i didn't have a guns solution. go figure.
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I was in the ma and was merging with a moss on the deck now who in their right mind would ho moss. He was just coming out of a turn so at the head on point I move to avoid the ho and got my tail shot off for the trouble. the pilot went on to land ten kills in the thing. I always go for the dual before the kill. It is just the way I fly. If someone wants to go for the kill first oh well.
I will flat out HO on the second engaged pick attempt even if it causes a ram. My whole goal is to kill the other player so they have to spend the time it takes to climb to 20k. The engaged pick is the lamest thing in the game.
I would like to know how you avoid the ho 100% of the time maybe you could explain.
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A HO is when both planes have a gun solution, but as someone else posted in a Duel one may avoid a easy HO shot, and the other does not. its a HO.
that's why when I fight, I try to make sure on the initial merge, that they have no gun solution but I do.
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To some, any shot taken when the opposition is in front of the 3/9 line is a HO. I avoid HO's long before they happen. Almost without fail, I can duck a HO attempt, and convert to their 6.
I had someone attempt a rope on me, stall and as they rolled over towards me nose down, I popped them in the canopy, they cried HO. Of course this player is well know for being a dictionary resource for "reasons why it's not my fault I died".
I usually ignore them when they cry. They get a new plane and it's only a game. <S>
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If the enemy has a guns solution on you, it is folly to expect him to not fire. I'm not saying you should or should not shoot someone in a head on. I'm just saying you should never expect the other pilot to not fire.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that is how i generally die to a ho.....when i maneuver away from it. then the other guy claims it wasn't a ho, since i didn't have a guns solution. go figure.
+1
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that is how i generally die to a ho.....when i maneuver away from it. then the other guy claims it wasn't a ho, since i didn't have a guns solution. go figure.
Yup, typical drivel from those who are more concerned with a cheap kill than a challenge but can't admit it.
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I don't care what direction the nme is going or what direction I'm going, if an nme aircraft crosses my gunsight, I'm taking the shot.
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Yup, typical drivel from those who are more concerned with a cheap kill than a challenge but can't admit it.
MY STATEMENT/?
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MY STATEMENT/?
No, I was referring to their HO justification. Sorry for the miscommunication.
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I don't care what direction the nme is going or what direction I'm going, if an nme aircraft crosses my gunsight, I'm taking the shot.
Then you'll always be an easy kill.
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No, I was referring to their HO justification. Sorry for the miscommunication.
aaahh.....no problem....and the caps weren't intended as yelling.......i had left caps lock on.........
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Yup, typical drivel from those who are more concerned with a cheap kill than a challenge but can't admit it.
I like "cheap" kills.
"Cheap" kills IMO are the ones where you never even give the opposition a fair chance to scratch your paint. That puts HOing right out.
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I like "cheap" kills.
"Cheap" kills IMO are the ones where you never even give the opposition a fair chance to scratch your paint. That puts HOing right out.
This from a person who prefers a "kill" as apposed to a "fight".
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This from a person who prefers a "kill" as apposed to a "fight".
Fighting is a necessary prelude to killing. Got to go into the woods if you want to hunt. Unless you make your living strafing runways. There are risks, but they can be minimized by various methods of cheating, such as studying more and putting in more practice than the opposition.
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I like "cheap" kills.
"Cheap" kills IMO are the ones where you never even give the opposition a fair chance to scratch your paint. That puts HOing right out.
From the quote we can see that you prefer killing as appose to fighting. You say you'll fight if you have to, but in a game all about combat.... a big word that means fighting... you would rather avoid that notion just to get the kill.
Thats what your saying right? I on the other hand avoid the "HO". Not only does it keep me out of that "face shooting", it has a tendency to prolong the fight, and so the fun.
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Then you'll always be an easy kill.
You need to think out of the box. You assume that I am referring to an HO. What I am saying is that any time an nme aircraft places itself in my gun sight at a range that is within my desired range, I’m taking the shot, no matter what direction the nme is traveling in. If it is directly in front of me and happens to be traveling at me, I may roll, yaw, climb or dive or turn, but I’m taking the shot.
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:cry
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From the quote we can see that you prefer killing as appose to fighting. You say you'll fight if you have to, but in a game all about combat.... a big word that means fighting... you would rather avoid that notion just to get the kill.
Thats what your saying right? I on the other hand avoid the "HO". Not only does it keep me out of that "face shooting", it has a tendency to prolong the fight, and so the fun.
:D Hoing is about the "fairest" chance to shoot you you can possibly give them. OTOH, if you duck the HO and turn right on their six, why, its almost murder...most of the time.
You like to prolong fights? You think this is a really good idea in a multi-bandit environment?
Do you also fire only the BBs and not the cannons to keep the fight going longer?
(Note: I think you're a pretty good guy, even if your tongue-in-cheek detector seems to be broken. :salute)
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:D Hoing is about the "fairest" chance to shoot you you can possibly give them. OTOH, if you duck the HO and turn right on their six, why, its almost murder...most of the time.
You like to prolong fights? You think this is a really good idea in a multi-bandit environment?
Do you also fire only the BBs and not the cannons to keep the fight going longer?
(Note: I think you're a pretty good guy, even if your tongue-in-cheek detector seems to be broken. :salute)
Maybe, maybe not. "Intent" is difficult to see in "text". My intent is to post in a way to show the new guys ....and some old guys...that HOin in any way is a cheap, no skill move/shot. Your post on the other hand seems to promote it. Its the only reason I posted. <S>
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Maybe, maybe not. "Intent" is difficult to see in "text". My intent is to post in a way to show the new guys ....and some old guys...that HOin in any way is a cheap, no skill move/shot. Your post on the other hand seems to promote it. Its the only reason I posted. <S>
that's why most of my online time in the last couple months has been in the ta........no one ho's there. well...that and i suck. :rofl
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Maybe, maybe not. "Intent" is difficult to see in "text". My intent is to post in a way to show the new guys ....and some old guys...that HOin in any way is a cheap, no skill move/shot. Your post on the other hand seems to promote it. Its the only reason I posted. <S>
You seem to be coming from the direction of "HOing is bad and unsportsmanlike, mmmkay?" Which is an okay direction, don't get me wrong. I tend to come more from the direction of "The most likely result of HOing is two morons finding themselves back in the tower."
Objectives: 1.Find enemy airplanes, shoot them down. 2. Avoid being shot 3. Return to base and laugh about it.
600mph closure rate+mutual exchange of cannon and HMG fire=immediate failure of objectives 2 and 3, 9 times out of 10.
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I was more refering to the DA and crap that goes on in there. In the MA's it's anything goes. Unless you've run into someone that your familiar with and you can give each other gentlemen's courtesy, then so be it, take whatever shot you feel necessary. You actually have an objective in the MA's. There is a time and a place for the HO shot for sure. Like when that obnoxious Zeke rolls into your ME110. By all means, blast away if the clown is dumb enough to go head to head with a monsterous cannon bird. I can understand certain HO shots in the MA but find it just plain pointless, stupid and juvenile in the DA. Why bother even going to the DA unless your going to practice your skills. HOing and Picking in the DA MAKES NO SENSE!!! I was haveing problems with people having weird definitions of "THE HO" and complaining that I was HOing when I clearly (to my perspective) was not. I love a good fight, nothing like it to improve your abilities. A HO shot just ruins an opportunity.
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I was haveing problems with people having weird definitions of "THE HO" and complaining that I was HOing when I clearly (to my perspective) was not. I love a good fight, nothing like it to improve your abilities. A HO shot just ruins an opportunity.
Indeed, if it is physically impossible for them to achieve a guns solution on you, it is certainly not a HO.
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If the other plane COULD have gotten guns on you, but chose to maneuver out of it, yet you chose to pursue it and shot, that could be considered a HO.
If only one plane has a potential gun solution it isn't a HO.
QFT but at the same time if you maneuver away from the head on too much and chop throttle you are setting up a very nice angle for yourself. So just because you could have HO'd doesn't necessarily mean it was a HO in extreme cases.
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QFT but at the same time if you maneuver away from the head on too much and chop throttle you are setting up a very nice angle for yourself. So just because you could have HO'd doesn't necessarily mean it was a HO in extreme cases.
i ho'd a guy last night. i was just about to rudder to slip off to the side, and i saw tracers. this was the second attempt on his part. he tried once, continued straight as i came 'round and couldn't cathc him. i kept him in sight though. he inned on another, then ran from that one too......headed my way, not trailing anyone. i started to ease pressure on the rudder, saw tracers.....said eff it.......let off the rudder, and sprayed the poop outta his stupid but, then dove under him.
i was in a bit of a mood, as that was my 2nd or 3rd fight of the night, and my first night in the arenas in somewhere around a month. the first one....well....he was sooooo intent on chasing a buddy, i closed up, and finished him fairly quickly. more to come.
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i ho'd a guy last night. i was just about to rudder to slip off to the side, and i saw tracers. this was the second attempt on his part. he tried once, continued straight as i came 'round and couldn't cathc him. i kept him in sight though. he inned on another, then ran from that one too......headed my way, not trailing anyone. i started to ease pressure on the rudder, saw tracers.....said eff it.......let off the rudder, and sprayed the poop outta his stupid but, then dove under him.
i was in a bit of a mood, as that was my 2nd or 3rd fight of the night, and my first night in the arenas in somewhere around a month. the first one....well....he was sooooo intent on chasing a buddy, i closed up, and finished him fairly quickly. more to come.
had my ride to mcguire show up in the middle of hte above post.
second fight....well it wasn't a fight either. it was a guy in an il2, who let me practice ren;s "bat" turn. i thinkn i did iit fairly well.....the guy never got more than 800 ahead of me. rather than turn to fight, he hit auto pile-it, and manned his rear gun. didn;t take much.
then i come upon the c2. he tried for the ho as mentioned....2x. on the second time is when i returned fire. it actually pissed me off more that i ho'd him, than it did that he tried it. i said on country that i didn;t care, and that he deserved it, but was pissed. i mean, c'mon? where's the fights? it was more fun tryin to bnz lazydog, and then later trying to pick him. at least he tried to fight, considering his situation at that point sucked bigtime. he was holding out well against a pair of zeeks and some sapp'er( :D ) trying to pick him in his hurri.
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well thanks cap it was fun :salute
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If you are lead turning so damn early I can see your plane from nose to tail, you better believe I am going to take the shot. To do otherwise would voluntarily surrender initial angles and (more often than not) the fight.
CAP ... read this and commit it to memory ... your HO angst will be reduced 10 fold.
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well thanks cap it was fun :salute
just so ya know dude.....i wasn't trying to pick ya. i was bnz'ing you before those two zeeks came in,......and i wasn't going to try to turn my 38 with your hurricane.....i can't make that work.......yet. i also didn;t know it was you till you finally went down. there were 2 hurris there to start, and i picked the one that was closer to me. that just happened to be you.
it was actually kinda fun, except for my sucky gunnery, and flying, but then i haven;t been on in a month or so.
what i didnt care for too much though, was getting vulched on landing while i was blacked out. but...o well.......
<<S>>
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This is why I always say.... "Its ALWAYS my fault if I get HOed" and seriously I mean it 100%... There is always a way out of a HO and you always have the choise to get out of it.
See the comment below yours.
If you are lead turning so damn early I can see your plane from nose to tail, you better believe I am going to take the shot. To do otherwise would voluntarily surrender initial angles and (more often than not) the fight.
Now I am talking about the MA here....
You attempt to avoid early you risk an good opponent like Del besting you. If you attempt to zoom past like in the DA you get shot at even if you are not trying to shoot them in the face. You have to find some "middle" ground I haven't yet in 7 years of AH
It is NOT easy to avoid the HO in the MA, I don't care what anyone says.
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It is NOT easy to avoid the HO in the MA, I don't care what anyone says.
Well ... if your "setup" wasn't so GD screwy you might find it a little easier ... :P
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See the comment below yours.
Now I am talking about the MA here....
You attempt to avoid early you risk an good opponent like Del besting you. If you attempt to zoom past like in the DA you get shot at even if you are not trying to shoot them in the face. You have to find some "middle" ground I haven't yet in 7 years of AH
It is NOT easy to avoid the HO in the MA, I don't care what anyone says.
Timing is everything.
Once you have the timing down, avoiding ho's are pretty easy.
Out of the 1,000's of ho attempts on me per tour, maybe 100ish almost land a shot, I might get hit and damage 10-15 times, and if I can't remember a tour i've died to a ho more than 4-5 times. I might add more times than not I am nose on to my opponent during the merge.
I COUNT on them going for the ho shot. Kinda throws me off when they don't.
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A Ho is when both planes have a gun solution...... NOw ingame this is were u can run into problems.... Some take advantage of NOT HOing on the merge... as soon as you twitch to avoid the HO they will light u up. "and it was a deflection shot you noob". YOu really have to fly as if all guns are loaded and WILL fire and just not merge where your in this posistion.
I personaly fly guns cold on all head on passes in the DA when im 1v1.... IM there to learn and for the fight not to just get a kill.
In the MA I fly guns cold on all head on passes up to what i could show is a fair angle if some one complains. NOW if someone HOs on any pass i will HO back if that is my only option.... Normly i invite the attempt to Ho...cause they are easy kills :devil
<S>
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Well ... if your "setup" wasn't so GD screwy you might find it a little easier ... :P
:lol <S> bro... still using the same stuff too :aok
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"HO" is a term used mostly by the losing pilot as an excuse why he was shot down.
"HO" is also a situation where both planes can shoot at each other at the same time with their forwards fixed weapons. One of both can evade the HO attack/merge/flight course and then HO situation ceases to exist.
"HO" always includes a risk of getting shot straight at your face. If there is no such risk when you shoot at / fly towards your target, it is not a HO.
One CANNOT get HOed. One is always actively HOing himself (or allowing an HO to happen) or evading a HO, there is no in between.
If you don't want to participate in a HO, evade it. If you choose to participate in it, DO NOT whine about it :D
HO equivalent in Texas Hold em is "All in".
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"HO" is a term used mostly by the losing pilot as an excuse why he was shot down.
read up a few......i used it as the one that won.
"HO" is also a situation where both planes can shoot at each other at the same time with their forwards fixed weapons. One of both can evade the HO attack/merge/flight course and then HO situation ceases to exist.
"HO" always includes a risk of getting shot straight at your face. If there is no such risk when you shoot at / fly towards your target, it is not a HO.
One CANNOT get HOed. One is always actively HOing himself (or allowing an HO to happen) or evading a HO, there is no in between.soooo...i didn't really ho that c2 the other night? he ho'd himself, but used my guns to do it? :D
If you don't want to participate in a HO, evade it. If you choose to participate in it, DO NOT whine about it :D
HO equivalent in Texas Hold em is "All in".the situation i mentioned, i was about to try to avoid it for the second time.....but i was in a pissy mood, saw tracers while he was still 2k out, so i lined him back up, and held the trigger till800, then dove under. he lost, but then so did i, because i didn't get a good fght from him...although i didn't think he was gonna fight anyway/..........
i suck at avoiding ho's. everyone says how easy it is. it seems to be for others, but it seems no matter what i try, the bad guy gets me 99% of the time. since i was trying to avoid, he says it wasn't a ho. i don't care anymore....if i think it's someone i know and respect, then i'll avoid it at all costs......anyone else, if i remotley think they're gonna ho me, i'm returning it. sucks though........
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The point is that no-one EVER wishes an HO. Everyone will always prefer the other guy NOT being able to shoot back at them at the same time. It becomes an HO when both are willing to risk it all at the same time.
I choose to allow the HO to happen when I don't have much to lose anymore, or if the enemy has much more to lose than I... e.g. while badly outnumbered, leaking or smoking without a chance to get back home. Naturally I will choose to try getting one more enemy down before my eventual loss.
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Any real sharp change of direction can get you out of someone's gunsight so long as you watch their nose. Going underneath their guns is a good way to make sure they won't get a shot. Though a lot of it has to do with timing... telegraphing your evasion will likely set you up. I agree with BlauK - if I get HOed, it was my bad... Just gotta remember what you did to get you killed that round and don't do it again.
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Any real sharp change of direction can get you out of someone's gunsight so long as you watch their nose. Going underneath their guns is a good way to make sure they won't get a shot. Though a lot of it has to do with timing... telegraphing your evasion will likely set you up. I agree with BlauK - if I get HOed, it was my bad... Just gotta remember what you did to get you killed that round and don't do it again.
i've had guys "skid" their plane to get a shot on me when i try most evasives. it's amazing...almost like they go offline, and just practice nothing but ho's......and how to make em no matter what.
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I hear ya Cap. Those skids are tricky unless you see them coming. When and if you do try to dive under their nose. They will have a hard time tracking you for a shot plus they'd have to either a) roll over and pull Gs for a shot OR b) nose down and pull Gs for a shot. The trend here is that if they are in the act of pulling gs for a shot they will be all over the place. If you manage to get by that initial attack - pull up into your reversal and you now have an ever so slight advantage on the merge... that's assuming they don't dive away to the deck anyway. :P
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I can HO you any time I want to.
I can HO you and still make a perfect lead turn.
I can HO you on every merge and still make a perfect lead turn.
I can HO you and set you up for another HO.
You CAN NOT avoid a HO without giving up angles.
The concept of "if they ho they give up angles" is totaly incorrect.
There are no exceptions to this rule.
It simply does not matter what you do. If you attempt to maneuver out of the HO YOU WILL BE GIVING UP ANGLES...and further, on each merge therafter you will be at an angles disadvantage. Each time you avoid the HO you give more and more angles until you have no options.
The statement "an enemy who takes a ho allows me to make a better lead turn" is totally incorrect.
I can HO you and extend come back an HO again without loosing any advantage.
I can HO you and lead turn and gain advantage.
ANY ATTEMPT TO AVOID A HO WILL GIVE THE OPPONENT AN ADVANTAGE.
So, what do you do?
The answer is:
Do not allow a merge that gives a gun solution....simple as that.
And exactly how do you do that?
Quite simply conduct an energy robbing maneuver.
The goal is to rob the other guy of his energy allowing you to get behind his 3-9 line.
Once behind this line HE CAN NOT HO YOU.
Any time he is in front of this line you can be HO'ed
IF you choose to merge close you are in guns.
There are MANY maneuvers that allow you to merge without giving a HO solution.
The classic move is the "fake merge"....this move presents a head on pass but allows you to make a 90 deg turn out of guns forcing the opponent to make a 270 deg turn onto your six. After this it is a simple matter of continuing this unitl he is totally out of energy. You can now easily maneuver to his six.
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The point is that no-one EVER wishes an HO. Everyone will always prefer the other guy NOT being able to shoot back at them at the same time. It becomes an HO when both are willing to risk it all at the same time.
I choose to allow the HO to happen when I don't have much to lose anymore, or if the enemy has much more to lose than I... e.g. while badly outnumbered, leaking or smoking without a chance to get back home. Naturally I will choose to try getting one more enemy down before my eventual loss.
see...that's where you're wrong. you have the new guys, that either never took the time to learn, or just got on, or whatever, want a kill no matter the cost. all they know is ho n run. so they'll do it.......ho ya, run away, till you turn tail, then come back......repeat rinse.
then you have the vet pile-its, that are very high time.....i mean well over 100 hours a month........they're fighting ya......doing ok sort of, but ever so slowly losing the battle. they finally see this, and set up a ho, just so they don't lose. they didn't need to, especially if it happens to be one that claims they don't care about winning or losing the fight. but they do. quite often too. and 90% of the time, those are pile-its that claim they don't ho.
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I can HO you any time I want to.
I can HO you and still make a perfect lead turn.
I can HO you on every merge and still make a perfect lead turn.
I can HO you and set you up for another HO.
You CAN NOT avoid a HO without giving up angles.
The concept of "if they ho they give up angles" is totaly incorrect.
There are no exceptions to this rule.
It simply does not matter what you do. If you attempt to maneuver out of the HO YOU WILL BE GIVING UP ANGLES...and further, on each merge therafter you will be at an angles disadvantage. Each time you avoid the HO you give more and more angles until you have no options.
The statement "an enemy who takes a ho allows me to make a better lead turn" is totally incorrect.
I can HO you and extend come back an HO again without loosing any advantage.
I can HO you and lead turn and gain advantage.
ANY ATTEMPT TO AVOID A HO WILL GIVE THE OPPONENT AN ADVANTAGE.
So, what do you do?
The answer is:
Do not allow a merge that gives a gun solution....simple as that.
And exactly how do you do that?
Quite simply conduct an energy robbing maneuver.
The goal is to rob the other guy of his energy allowing you to get behind his 3-9 line.
Once behind this line HE CAN NOT HO YOU.
Any time he is in front of this line you can be HO'ed
IF you choose to merge close you are in guns.
There are MANY maneuvers that allow you to merge without giving a HO solution.
The classic move is the "fake merge"....this move presents a head on pass but allows you to make a 90 deg turn out of guns forcing the opponent to make a 270 deg turn onto your six. After this it is a simple matter of continuing this unitl he is totally out of energy. You can now easily maneuver to his six.
Hiya Agent! Gud ta cya :) :salute.
I'm scratching my head. There's usally only one HO attempt. Most of the time the guy trying to HO will not get another chance. Personally, I have already gone for angles prior to my opponents trying to align for a HO and I'm pretty much on his 6 within a few seconds after his HO attempt. Then again I set up his pass to put me in postion to gain his 6 long before he ever gets to me.
What many folks don't understand is they think that a merge is an opening move when it may have already been a preordained kill when the guy was 1500 yards away from you. And the sad part is that he never even knew how easy is to "make" (is that a good word?) someone do exactly what you want them to do. What's more interesting is they fall for it over and over because they can't imagine that they have been set up for the kill. When I show them they go "huh?" Then the light comes on. THEN...they learn it but find out there's also a response to the response.
That's why I never worry about a HO. Don't get me wrong I've been caught on the deck with 3 on my 6 only to have someone come HO me from some angle I was turning to while looking back or when my graphics get so dark I can't even tell which way the guy was pointed. That's gonna happen and be acceptable until I do something about it.
But what makes this game so great is, for every move there is an equal counter move and for every counter move there is yet another equal counter move and so on. Kinda like chess, only at 300 mph. There is a dark side to it also...the guy that loops and loops and loops or does a flat turn, putting his nose up as high as he can get it, hoping, just, hoping the guy might not reach him.n Or how about the guy that cuts his engine or throttle nose up just hoping the guy will overshoot. KaaaaPowwwww...tower time. One single move does not a fighter pilot make.....(read HO).
Ren
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This is NOT a ho... note the speed and where the Ki84's nose is pointed.
(names removed to prevent the likelihood of a flame war erupting. This person was really upset that I took that shot and decided to be a bit inflammatory on 200)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/DeliriumP38Lightning/notaho.jpg)
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That looks like a rope.
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see...that's where you're wrong. you have the new guys, that either never took the time to learn, or just got on, or whatever, want a kill no matter the cost. all they know is ho n run. so they'll do it.......ho ya, run away, till you turn tail, then come back......repeat rinse.
No, they do not attempt an HO. The new guys typically attempt to shoot at the enemy at any cost. If the enemy also does that, then it may become an HO situation. It usually takes a more experienced guy to attack into HO intentionally.
That is the fundamental difference in our thinking.
If you decide to attempt an HO, it means that the enemy is already pointing his guns at you and you then turn into him. Typically this can happen when you have a better turning plane.
When it becomes an HO, your enemy will have to decide whether he wants the HO to happen, or will he try to avoid it. However, since he has had his guns on you before you turned into him, he is likely quite fast and cannot evade you so easily.
Thus a HOer is 1) the one who turns last into an HO and also 2) the other one who decides to continue his course towards the enemy when the enemy turns his guns into an HO.
In every HO there are 2 HOers.... or one HOer and the other one AFK or just not paying attention at all.
So if there ever is a situation where someone "gets HOed", it is like I described above. Trying to shoot at a more maneuverable plane which suddenly turns into you without you being able to abort your course. Even then you must have considered the possibility of his reaction before you decided to engage, so it is your own fault.
......
What we mostly read on the board about HOs are simply losers' whines when they got shot at from their frontal hemisphere without even a chance to shoot back at the enemy :)
These sore losers victimize themselves when they admit that they are not in control of their own playing... they get wronged because others do not play like these whiners would want them to. They are facing an impossible task of changing everyone else and that is why they whine.
The only way is to stop whining about others and to start carrying the responsibility of every action and every outcome by oneself.
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me 38j vs c205(i think it was 205).
heading for 1st merge.........i slip right with a slight dive......just as he tries to ho. he was shooting at 2k. i chopped throttle, lifted nose, rolled, and let her fall on her side, and was 800 out behind. firewall the throttles, nose down, he dives..i can't catch him, there's a couple hurris up ahead, so i give up chase, and climb. make a couple passes at one of the hurris, watching the c2 the whole time......as i'm setting up my 3rd pass, here comes mr c2. , so i finish my pass on the hurri, and set up for mr c2. i'm on my back, almost stalling, let the nose drop, and looking to drop in behind him, as i roll over. he pulls up right into me. i start to go into a slip, for some separation, throttles to idle to not overspeed.....as i start to slip, i see tracers........that's when i said the hell with it.......it was apparently all he had for me. it's not like he was outnumbered or anything. i got lucky. i won that time....i usually lose. either way, i guess i could've continued my evasive, but i fully agree with agent....had i done that, i'd have given him the advantage.
i don't like to ho. i dont like to be ho'd. i like to fight. sometimes 1-1, or 1-2, sometimes i like to get down into the furball where you should never take a slow 38.
this guy was a name i've seen before......and i think he's good enough that he doesn't need to ho........and that quite often is the case it seems anymore.
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Hiya Agent! Gud ta cya :) :salute.
I'm scratching my head. There's usally only one HO attempt. Most of the time the guy trying to HO will not get another chance. Personally, I have already gone for angles prior to my opponents trying to align for a HO and I'm pretty much on his 6 within a few seconds after his HO attempt. Then again I set up his pass to put me in postion to gain his 6 long before he ever gets to me.
What many folks don't understand is they think that a merge is an opening move when it may have already been a preordained kill when the guy was 1500 yards away from you. And the sad part is that he never even knew how easy is to "make" (is that a good word?) someone do exactly what you want them to do. What's more interesting is they fall for it over and over because they can't imagine that they have been set up for the kill. When I show them they go "huh?" Then the light comes on. THEN...they learn it but find out there's also a response to the response.
That's why I never worry about a HO. Don't get me wrong I've been caught on the deck with 3 on my 6 only to have someone come HO me from some angle I was turning to while looking back or when my graphics get so dark I can't even tell which way the guy was pointed. That's gonna happen and be acceptable until I do something about it.
But what makes this game so great is, for every move there is an equal counter move and for every counter move there is yet another equal counter move and so on. Kinda like chess, only at 300 mph. There is a dark side to it also...the guy that loops and loops and loops or does a flat turn, putting his nose up as high as he can get it, hoping, just, hoping the guy might not reach him.n Or how about the guy that cuts his engine or throttle nose up just hoping the guy will overshoot. KaaaaPowwwww...tower time. One single move does not a fighter pilot make.....(read HO).
Ren
Hi Ren,
My point is that one can not avoid a HO and keep the angles. Assuming a typical head on merge where two planes make a cold pass then turn he who make the best merge turn will have the initial angles. I do agree with you that this merge does not have to be close to each other. One could set up a merge like you say.
Now take this same kind of merge with guns hot. If you try to avoid the ho while the other guy makes the same merge as before you will give up the angles.
See this thread - page 8
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,244093.105.html
where Dedalos offers a challenge to prove this very point. I initially disagreed with him claiming that one who ho's allows me to make a lead turn becuase the ho er must hold the guns while I lead turn. I took his challenge and we did a few hours in the DA testing this out. And to my surprise he was right.
I also agree with you that one can set up a merge where there is not way for you to be ho'ed and still win the angles on the first turn...which is what I meant by the last paragraph in my earlier post.
:salute