Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: WGUtah on August 21, 2009, 04:56:57 PM
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Please remove the perks from the only US plane with any real Cannon (the C-Hog). The 190's, Hurrie-C, even spits have tons of cannon with no perks.
We really want to fly US aircraft but have to take German stuff to do any real damage!!!!!
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nope, it would be the ONLY plane flown off a CV if it had no perk value.....
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You must not have been around when it was un-perked were you?
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We really want to fly US aircraft but have to take German stuff to do any real damage!!!!!
Now that's an amazing and quite rare opinion...
I mean 6-8 .50 cals do no real damage? :lol
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Now that's an amazing and quite rare opinion...
I mean 6-8 .50 cals do no real damage? :lol
Four .50 cals can be written off as weak? Surely the OP jests.
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It is true that it is hard to justify perking the C-Hog on the basis of its performance as a fighter alone. But it is the only 4-cannon bird that is CV capable. Also, it was a historically very, very rare version of the F4U that would be the majority of Hog sorties in the MA if unperked.
BTW, don't compare quad Hispanos to German rides. The MG 151 is considerably less lethal than the Hispano, 109s only mount one of them, 190 A5s have only two of them plus a very small amount of ammo for the inneffective MG/FFs, D9s only have two cannon. The A8 can carry quad 20MMs plus two machine guns, but guess what, that package *still* is not quite as lethal as four Hispanos. 30MMs are utterly lethal of course and also an utter nightmare for most of the player set to aim.
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In real life a test was done with 4 Hispanos against six .50 caliber Brownings.
The cannons were around twice as powerful.
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In real life a test was done with 4 Hispanos against six .50 caliber Brownings.
The cannons were around twice as powerful.
IIRC, U.S. Navy tests rated a Hispano cannon as being three times as lethal as a .50 cal MG, which is also what the lethality charts for AHII give.
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In real life a test was done with 4 Hispanos against six .50 caliber Brownings.
The cannons were around twice as powerful.
Yet the six .50 caliber Brownings provide more lead on the target during a snapshot, thus negating the advantage. Besides, if the C-Hog were unperked, could we blame you every time we were picked by a cannon armed, highly maneuverable, and sturdy aircraft? It would be like Blame Karaya, all over again, but less in jest, rather, more in scorn.
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Please remove the perks from the only US plane with any real Cannon (the C-Hog).
My P38 has a cannon and it doesn't have any German markings on it. :devil
Besides, the P39 has cannons too.
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Its very lightly perked as it is. The perk cost shouldnt prevent anyone from flying it.
I know if unperked you'd see maybe 10 times as many as you do now.
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I once asked for the four cannon version of the Sea Hurricain.
The reasons against were vast to my single reason for it. Two 500lb bombs and four 20mm cannon to take down towns and GV along with its legendary manuverability. Visualize a GV sitting 8000yds off shore out of the shore batteries gun arc. Puffy ack is knocking down half the defenders while the other half are dealing with a CV upping CONGA line hoards of 4-20mm HOing Hurri mowing them down while delivering 2 - 500lb to the town.
Now unperk the C-Hog. 3X the ammo load. 3X the ordenance load. Park the same CV in the same place.
Add to it all the sqweekers who will now discover enhanced picking, HOing then running in furballs. And all of the vets who just get tired of trying to play with some class versus wanting to land something for their $14.95 a month fun factor. You think a few 262 over furballs is disruptive of your fun factor? Put yourself in an MA large furball that has 20 players 7k to the deck swirling around. Now it's squad night for a 12 man squad and they up C-Hogs to bust the furball. Drop tank and 25% fuel because there is no loss of perks anymore. Unlike the tiffe, you can turn and burn a C-Hog with those flaps. 12 guys, especialy vets dropping into a low furball in a chog loaded out light. Ch200 will burn.
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Yet the six .50 caliber Brownings provide more lead on the target during a snapshot, thus negating the advantage. Besides, if the C-Hog were unperked, could we blame you every time we were picked by a cannon armed, highly maneuverable, and sturdy aircraft? It would be like Blame Karaya, all over again, but less in jest, rather, more in scorn.
No. Quad Hispanos are far more lethal than 6, or even 8 .50s, and are negligibly more difficult to aim. This is not debatable.
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Yet the six .50 caliber Brownings provide more lead on the target during a snapshot, thus negating the advantage. Besides, if the C-Hog were unperked, could we blame you every time we were picked by a cannon armed, highly maneuverable, and sturdy aircraft? It would be like Blame Karaya, all over again, but less in jest, rather, more in scorn.
Sup?! :devil
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who will now discover enhanced picking, HOing then running in furballs.
C-Hog is *not* a particularly good runner by LW standards.
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As a fairly dedicated Hog driver I would have to say no. Keep it perked
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C-Hog is *not* a particularly good runner by LW standards.
Chog doesn't ever need to run! It is quite uber all by its lonesome :aok :aok
Unless ofcourse you're protecting something, isn't that right shawk? :rofl :rofl :devil :devil
:salute
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Chog doesn't ever need to run! It is quite uber all by its lonesome :aok :aok
Unless ofcourse you're protecting something, isn't that right shawk? :rofl :rofl :devil :devil
:salute
1v1 the C-Hog may indeed be able to almost always out-run what it can't out-turn and out-turn what it cannot outrun...
...But we operate in arenas where any plane can may be and indeed can expect to be attacked by 190s/P-51s/La7s operating in concert with Zekes/Hurris/N1Ks/Spits....this puts a lot of pressure on planes nearer the middle of the speed/maneuverability continuum.
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I know the best way to stop all these "Unperk the C-Hog" threads:
Unperk the 4-Hog.
THEN we'll get some whines. :D
To be serious, however, I don't think unperking the C-Hog is going to change Corsair usage THAT much, especially by the dedicated Hog pilots. She hits harder, sure, but:
* The 1 and 1A are significantly faster and have vastly superior range
* The 1D's additional ordinance in large part balances out the Charlie's cannon (and if we ever get the center rack 2000lb bomb the difference will be HUGE) from a general attack standpoint (although the cannon do make a better choice for deacking and busting light GVs).
* All three of the other 1-series Hogs are more maneuverable. The difference is subtle, but there. And enough that the top Hog pilots know the Charlie is in trouble in a protracted maneuvering fight against any of the other Hogs.
* The Brownings don't have the punch of the cannon, but are more than serviceable against any air target in the game.
* The F4U-4. I shouldn't need to even EXPLAIN this point.
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4 vs 6........... 4(3)= 12 vs 6 Sounds right.
IIRC, U.S. Navy tests rated a Hispano cannon as being three times as lethal as a .50 cal MG, which is also what the lethality charts for AHII give.
3 times as lethal, 4 vs 6, makes Hispano's twice as powerful...... If this particular case was the example used.
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I'm all in favor of unperking the C-Hog simply because the XVI is a good opponent for it. During CV fights you see droves and droves of XVIs defending, so why not droves and droves of C-Hogs attacking?
These two aircraft are well matched. In the name of consistency, it's better to unperk the C-Hog than to perk the XVI.
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I'm all in favor of unperking the C-Hog simply because the XVI is a good opponent for it. During CV fights you see droves and droves of XVIs defending, so why not droves and droves of C-Hogs attacking?
These two aircraft are well matched. In the name of consistency, it's better to unperk the C-Hog than to perk the XVI.
Because the C Hogs would all be up high booming and zooming. The good Hog pilots do just fine with the 6 50s. It's the guys who don't want to work at it a bit that hide behind the 4 cannons
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SHawk lands 12 victories in an F4U-1A of Mullets4Life...........
The C-Hog is perked for a reason.
Anybody who flies the Corsair's can kill in any of them. It's just one of those planes.
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Because the C Hogs would all be up high booming and zooming.
Really? From a CV? It doesn't climb that well, so the XVI has an easy time getting above it. But the F4U-1C can dogfight almost as well as the 1D, which isn't anything shabby.
Secondly, I don't see any hog pilots complaining that Spitfires should stop that sissy turning stuff. Do you? ;)
It's been a long time since the F4U-1C was unperked, and there was no XVI then. I say take the leash off and see what happens. The worst possibility is that it turns out to be a bad idea and we just go back to how things are now.
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Ho Ho Ho
'Nuf said.
wrongway
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Just took a C-hog run. felt like Barry Bonds. :cool:
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I will rarely fly anything but a hog when I do choose to fly. The perks as they are, correctly give the due respect for these birds. And lets be honest here, they are not really perked so high that most can choose to fly them if they really wanted to. In retrospect the Spit 16 should be perked the same as the CHog, IMHO. But that's just how I feel about the perked system in it's current use. So as a dedicated Hog pilot, I would vote no to this.
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Unperk the 4-Hog.
Actually, you unperk the Dash 4 and its useage won't hardly budge. Unperk the Dash 1C, and its useage will soar. 4 Hispano > Better performance for the typical MA pilot. Sure, flown by a Sierra Hotel Hog driver, the Dash 4 will eat almost anything alive, but its capability is wasted by the typical MA player.
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No, I'd rather have the B298 with Nuke than have the C-hawg unperked. Terrible idea, been explained twice a year for 8 years WHY.
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Actually, you unperk the Dash 4 and its useage won't hardly budge. Unperk the Dash 1C, and its useage will soar. 4 Hispano > Better performance for the typical MA pilot. Sure, flown by a Sierra Hotel Hog driver, the Dash 4 will eat almost anything alive, but its capability is wasted by the typical MA player.
Oh come on Stoney!!! You don't think the average player could find use for an airplane that goes 375 on the deck and can out-turn a Spit??????
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I'm all in favor of unperking the C-Hog simply because the XVI is a good opponent for it. During CV fights you see droves and droves of XVIs defending, so why not droves and droves of C-Hogs attacking?
These two aircraft are well matched. In the name of consistency, it's better to unperk the C-Hog than to perk the XVI.
Anax, honestly, that idea is like having one flat tire on your bicycle and "solving" the problem by poking a hole in the other. :D
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Usage would probably rise just from hearsay that the -4 is the best of the lot.
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Anax, honestly, that idea is like having one flat tire on your bicycle and "solving" the problem by poking a hole in the other. :D
It's what the players want. I'm just insisting on consistency.
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Allow me to make is clear just HOW effective the C-Hog is for those that don't quite get it.
Take an FM-2.
Slide an R-2800 into the nose.
Give it a half-bubble canopy.
Replace the 50's with 20mm Hispanos.
You have an F4U-1C with the flaps down. Now, do YOU want to see hordes of 350MPH+, cannon-armed FM-2's running around?
I didn't think so.
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Oh come on Stoney!!! You don't think the average player could find use for an airplane that goes 375 on the deck and can out-turn a Spit??????
No, other than running with it. The F4U-4 in the hands of your average 6-month old player is basically a Pony. Like Moot says, many would up it at least once just to see what's it all about, but eventually, they would run back to their Hurri's, Typhoons, N1K2s, Spits, etc. Many of us posting in this forum can get silly kills with it, but your average MA player won't. The F4U-1C on the other hand--without a perk, they'll fly that thing so much that it will darken the skies like locusts. For average MA warriors, killer snapshot firepower is more desirable than awesome overall performance. How many other perk planes we have with 6 X .50s?
Just my opinion bro--I could be wrong.
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Allow me to make is clear just HOW effective the C-Hog is for those that don't quite get it.
Take an FM-2.
Slide an R-2800 into the nose.
Give it a half-bubble canopy.
Replace the 50's with 20mm Hispanos.
You have an F4U-1C with the flaps down. Now, do YOU want to see hordes of 350MPH+, cannon-armed FM-2's running around?
I didn't think so.
Funny. I'd say it's about as effective as an F4U-1D but with quad hispanos in place of the 6 M2s.
And for those who refuse to believe that the XVI is a good match for the C-Hog:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=16&p2=86&pw=1>ype=0)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=16&p2=86&pw=1>ype=2)
XVI also rolls better until you're way past 300mph ias, and has a turn rate advantage that is balanced out by the C-Hog's smaller radius. The best thing for the C-Hog to do is to keep the fight on the deck or in that narrow band between 12-17k ft.
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Don't forget that the C-hog has a much larger ammo capacity than the spit, also better stall characteristics (and IIRC, a lower stall speed).
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Don't forget that the C-hog has a much larger ammo capacity than the spit, also better stall characteristics (and IIRC, a lower stall speed).
I'm looking forward to that changing, the Hog we have handles a lot better than the real thing, many of the experts that crunch numbers and work on actual Corsairs have agreed on that point.
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Just remember this isn't about asking for a Corsair as we have those. The best of the Corsair drivers fly the 1A and 1D just fine and kill without a problem
This is just a veiled way to ask for a 4 cannon bird with more performance.
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Just remember this isn't about asking for a Corsair as we have those. The best of the Corsair drivers fly the 1A and 1D just fine and kill without a problem
This is just a veiled way to ask for a 4 cannon bird with more performance.
If they unperked the C-Hog, I wouldn't fly it more than I do now, which is once in a blue moon when I feel like strafing PT boats. I'll always prefer the 1A because it's a bit faster and more nimble.
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By how much? How much of it is due to the 20mm ammo? I rarely ride the horde, so I'd take this chog for free pretty much everytime. I'm used to short range cannons, and the amount of ammo is pretty much enough on its own to decide it for me. You can do way more killing, no matter how much easier or harder per kill, with that much ammo VS the amount of 50 cal.
Then you have the rest of the picture... The F4U is rugged, can turn with almost anything, has excellent control authority, dives well.... I think players would acclimatize to it enough, while following the 4x20mm carrot, to put the Chog usage near or at the rest of the F4Us.
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Now, do YOU want to see hordes of 350MPH+, cannon-armed FM-2's running around?
I'll take one please. :D
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By how much? How much of it is due to the 20mm ammo? I rarely ride the horde, so I'd take this chog for free pretty much everytime. I'm used to short range cannons, and the amount of ammo is pretty much enough on its own to decide it for me. You can do way more killing, no matter how much easier or harder per kill, with that much ammo VS the amount of 50 cal.
Then you have the rest of the picture... The F4U is rugged, can turn with almost anything, has excellent control authority, dives well.... I think players would acclimatize to it enough, while following the 4x20mm carrot, to put the Chog usage near or at the rest of the F4Us.
I think it would be safe to say that it would surpass any of the other F4Us as the performance difference to a neophyte isn't going to be noticable, but the hitting power of 4 20mms is. Only the die hard, history nuts, or guys who prefer a particular skin on their F4U would not fly it.
Get HTC to introduce a Hurri IIB with the 303s. How many guys would give up a IIc for that? Only the guys who get a kick out of doing more with less and that's not many :)
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The whole point of ENY is to maintain game balance. Weren't there only 200 C-Hogs built? The current system works just right in respect to the F4U family IMO.
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Unperk it all my p51 isn't on a diet.
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I like the current perk set-up for the hogs. I think it keeps the usage about right, the cost mirrors the effect the cannons have, but is still cheap enough to amke it available to pretty much anyone who wants to fly it.
When I was a wet-behind-the-ears hog pilot I thought the C-Hog was the best of the lot. I honestly couldn't understand why any of the hogs were perked, and saw very little reason why the -4 was perked as high as it is. The -4 perk cost actually looked like a waste of perks for a plane I stood little chance of returning to the runway.
Now, with a little experience I have to say I agree with the perk costs as they stand, and don't want to see them changed.
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The whole point of ENY is to maintain game balance. Weren't there only 200 C-Hogs built? The current system works just right in respect to the F4U family IMO.
Yup, about the same number as La-7s with 3x20mm cannon, and wayyyy more than the number of Ta-152s that saw combat. ENY has nothing to do with historical production numbers.
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How often do you guys see a -1, -1A, or -1D in furball lake?
How often do you see a -1C, or -4?
Leave it as is...
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How often do you guys see a -1, -1A, or -1D in furball lake?
How often do you see a -1C, or -4?
Leave it as is...
Right, I agree with your point, but the principle you're advocating here is not Perking. There has to be a difference between personal preferences and opinions, and remaining consistent within the law. It's only on the basis of the latter motivation that I would say "unperk the C-Hog." Perks are not for encouraging the use of earlier, more-common variants, just look at the La-7.
Personally, I don't want to see the C-Hog unperked. But from the perspective of how the ENY/Perk system is supposed to work by and large, the C-Hog no longer merits it. I've been to furball lake, and the XVI is still the aircraft of choice. :)
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The funny things is, the C-Hog is quite capable in just about any role. BnZ, turn fighters, air to ground, bomber hunter, etc.
No other single engine aircraft can carry the ord nor firepower like the C-Hog. It isnt slow, either.
If anything... perk it more. The tiffy and Nik2 are not that far off, either.
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"How much of it is due to the 20mm ammo? "
A lot! The large 1C ammo load gives a whole new meaning to the term
"spray and pray" and that is what every nob and dork will do with it.
With .30 or .50 cals just a round or two hitting your target may get you
some kind of damage on the enemy but with the 20mm? One ding and
you probably caused a crippling wound. More than one and you have a
kill.
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Right, I agree with your point, but the principle you're advocating here is not Perking. There has to be a difference between personal preferences and opinions, and remaining consistent within the law. It's only on the basis of the latter motivation that I would say "unperk the C-Hog." Perks are not for encouraging the use of earlier, more-common variants, just look at the La-7.
Personally, I don't want to see the C-Hog unperked. But from the perspective of how the ENY/Perk system is supposed to work by and large, the C-Hog no longer merits it. I've been to furball lake, and the XVI is still the aircraft of choice. :)
I wasn't around from before the C-Hog was perked, but every post I've seen detailing the time has led me to believe it was perked because it saw a massive, massive use. To the point where that was all you'd see (exaggerated).
Now, considering how many old hands talk about how the Corsair never used to be "uber" back then like it is today, this couldn't have been because the plane was "too great."
Further, just to put another thing in perspective... With my style of fighting, I often get brief snapshots, and with the 50's, this often is not enough to knock the other guy out. Many of my deaths are directly attributable to not killing quickly enough. Give me four hizookas for free, and I wouldn't be surprised to see my k/d go from an average of 1.5-2 up to 4, or even 6.
I wouldn't be surprised to see similar results for other people.
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In the case of the LA-7 and the spit16, I don't think keeping consistency across the board is necessarily the best answer either.
If we kept things totally consistent, only those with the skill required to earn perks would fly the perk planes. The "beginners" would have to fly the lower-performance planes.
That sets up a possible "vets in uber-rides vs newbs in early rides" scenario, which wouldn't be very fair either.
I think it's an important game-leveler to have a few "uber" rides be free, when "consistancy" would mean perking them. The LA-7 and Spit16 fit the bill perfectly, IMO. Let 'em have a ride they can experience some success in, learn some basic skills in, but earn few perks in them, so they have an incentive to try some of the other planes as thier skill improves.
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Vudak, XVI wasn't around when the C-Hog was free.
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In the case of the LA-7 and the spit16, I don't think keeping consistency across the board is necessarily the best answer either.
If we kept things totally consistent, only those with the skill required to earn perks would fly the perk planes. The "beginners" would have to fly the lower-performance planes.
That sets up a possible "vets in uber-rides vs newbs in early rides" scenario, which wouldn't be very fair either.
I think it's an important game-leveler to have a few "uber" rides be free, when "consistancy" would mean perking them. The LA-7 and Spit16 fit the bill perfectly, IMO. Let 'em have a ride they can experience some success in, learn some basic skills in, but earn few perks in them, so they have an incentive to try some of the other planes as thier skill improves.
Yeah, I agree completely. This game is tough enough as is.
Vudak, XVI wasn't around when the C-Hog was free.
I don't understand why you think the XVI is such a problem. I can think of perhaps five players that know what they're doing and consistently fly it.
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I don't understand why you think the XVI is such a problem. I can think of perhaps five players that know what they're doing and consistently fly it.
Why do you believe I think it's a problem? What I do believe is that it's competitive with the C-Hog and prevents it from being too ubiquitous, as evidenced by the furball pond in the DA.
It's pretty humorous to me that we've come full circle in opinions depending on what is at stake. When someone complains about the XVI or La-7 and says "perk them!" we all step up and tell them to stop whining, get some training, those two aircraft are not perk worthy, etc. Now when someone says to unperk the C-Hog, we tell them there are already perk-worthy aircraft they can fly for free, i.e. the XVI and La-7. Really, what kind of position can we stand firm on?
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Why do you believe I think it's a problem? What I do believe is that it's competitive with the C-Hog and prevents it from being too ubiquitous, as evidenced by the furball pond in the DA.
Sorry, I think I might be confusing you with another player. Which one's the Luftwaffe guy that's always upset about the XVI again?
It's pretty humorous to me that we've come full circle in opinions depending on what is at stake. When someone complains about the XVI or La-7 and says "perk them!" we all step up and tell them to stop whining, get some training, those two aircraft are not perk worthy, etc. Now when someone says to unperk the C-Hog, we tell them there are already perk-worthy aircraft they can fly for free, i.e. the XVI and La-7. Really, what kind of position can we stand firm on?
As far as I can tell, the perk and ENY systems for that matter are just... Weird. 14's perked*, 16's not, D Stangs low ENY, B Stangs relatively high ENY, etc. So I'm not really sure that I can answer your question :)
* (although perhaps with Krusty finding the error, they now deserve to be? I don't know, but it'll be interesting to see that argument)
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I don't understand why you think the XVI is such a problem. I can think of perhaps five players that know what they're doing and consistently fly it.
Are we assigning perk/ENY values based on aircraft performance or are we assigning them based on whether or not vets like that model?
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Sorry, I think I might be confusing you with another player. Which one's the Luftwaffe guy that's always upset about the XVI again?
Well, there was a time when I said the XVI deserved a small perk (like maybe 3-5) because its over all ability makes it competitive with some of our perk rides like the C-Hog. Then some smart people here at the boards said they'd much rather see something unperked then perked: why take away a plane that's good for beginners? "Ok," I thought, if two planes are about equal, then it shouldn't happen that one is perked and the other is not, so unperk the C-Hog. ;)
Anyway, as best I can, I've always tried to present arguments and reasons here instead of the emotional rants you see sometimes for perking things that shoot you down.
As far as I can tell, the perk and ENY systems for that matter are just... Weird. 14's perked*, 16's not, D Stangs low ENY, B Stangs relatively high ENY, etc. So I'm not really sure that I can answer your question :)
* (although perhaps with Krusty finding the error, they now deserve to be? I don't know, but it'll be interesting to see that argument)
Hey, we agree there! There's a lot of weird ENY/Perk values. Personally, I don't think the XIV deserves a perk either. It looks great on paper, but it's a pain in the neck to fly and aim with, and it's even a rare sight in the DA pond where it's free.
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The Lala is not actually particularly "easy to fly", easy to fly for a noob usually meaning some combination of turning ability, stability, and user-friendly gun package. There are a dozen airplanes that are "easier" than the La7 in that sense. No, what the La7 brings to the table is the ability to *completely outclass*-outrun, out-turn, out-climb, out-accelerate-literally the whole field of unperked high-speed E fighters in the LW arena. Its non-perk status is literally unconscionable.
The Spixteen is a couple notches easier, but still probably not so "easy" as its stablemates, the V/IX/VIII. Once again, what it brings to the table is double-superiority as a fighter to a huge chunk of the LW plane set.
Honestly, if your idea is to distribute a plane that will gives noobs a chance, by all means, unperk the F4U-4.
Say what you will about the C-Hog (and I'm not advocating unperking it) but it has one important, glaring weakness that neither of the above have: Thrust/weight ratio near the bottom of the barrel. This is a weakness that will haunt the C-Hog whether it is trying to stay fast and E-fight/bnz or getting bogged down in a furball. This is weakness that is very exploitable by a large number of other fighter types that simply does not exist for the La7 or Spixteen. I think entirely too much emphasis is being placed on the gun package and not enough on whether or not most planes have a corner of the envelope they can exploit against X to avoid being in the gun sight in the first place.
In the case of the LA-7 and the spit16, I don't think keeping consistency across the board is necessarily the best answer either.
If we kept things totally consistent, only those with the skill required to earn perks would fly the perk planes. The "beginners" would have to fly the lower-performance planes.
That sets up a possible "vets in uber-rides vs newbs in early rides" scenario, which wouldn't be very fair either.
I think it's an important game-leveler to have a few "uber" rides be free, when "consistancy" would mean perking them. The LA-7 and Spit16 fit the bill perfectly, IMO. Let 'em have a ride they can experience some success in, learn some basic skills in, but earn few perks in them, so they have an incentive to try some of the other planes as thier skill improves.
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Are we assigning perk/ENY values based on aircraft performance or are we assigning them based on whether or not vets like that model?
I like to look at it as potential vs. reality, and reality should reign supreme.
If we look at potential, the K4 and D9 should both be perk planes.
In reality, we both know the number of people that can dominate in them is small enough that a perk price is completely unnecessary.
By contrast, the Tempest has both the potential to be a perk plane, and in reality, is quite easily dominant in the hands of many, many players. As such, it gets, and deserves, a perk.
I think that the c-hog has that potential and reality, though I could be wrong.
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Honestly, if your idea is to distribute a plane that will gives noobs a chance, by all means, unperk the F4U-4.
:rofl
I really need to drag Bait over here and have him to fly the -4 while I film. He's been flying a few weeks.
The Corsairs might be great planes, but they aren't great planes right out of the box.
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I think entirely too much emphasis is being placed on the gun package and not enough on whether or not most planes have a corner of the envelope they can exploit against X to avoid being in the gun sight in the first place.
That's because these types of players do not particularly "exploit" their performance envelope (excepting speed)--they exploit their firepower. ACM and gunnery skills are low for these players--they don't understand how to take advantage of any aircraft's performance. They point and shoot, run away, and then come back and do it again. High firepower makes them successful as they HO and spray their way to kills. That's why this player demographic prefers the N1K2, the Typh, the Hurri IIC, and would prefer the F4U-1C if it was perk-free.
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That's because these types of players do not particularly "exploit" their performance envelope (excepting speed)--they exploit their firepower. ACM and gunnery skills are low for these players--they don't understand how to take advantage of any aircraft's performance. They point and shoot, run away, and then come back and do it again. High firepower makes them successful as they HO and spray their way to kills. That's why this player demographic prefers the N1K2, the Typh, the Hurri IIC, and would prefer the F4U-1C if it was perk-free.
The player demographic prefers the P-51D over all of those, 6 .50s and all.
That btw, is why you are wrong about the 4-Hog vs. the C-Hog. All the people flying and landing kills in the P-51D apparently find 6 .50s adequate. If they switched to the 4-Hog, they would find an airplane that performed better in every way, AND had more ammo. Meanwhile, if they switched to the C-Hog, they would find their attempts to disengage hampered by the fact that half the common plane types in a furball can run them down and most can out-accelerate them. The C-Hog may be a great killer but it ain't the SURVIVOR that many unperked planes are. The 4-Hogs would be uncatchable by most and eat most of the LW set for lunch in a "fair" fight anyway. The C-Hogs would be run down and killed with the right tactics.
I just don't think perks/ENY should be based on lowest common denominator ACM and popularity.
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I like to look at it as potential vs. reality, and reality should reign supreme.
If we look at potential, the K4 and D9 should both be perk planes.
In reality, we both know the number of people that can dominate in them is small enough that a perk price is completely unnecessary.
By contrast, the Tempest has both the potential to be a perk plane, and in reality, is quite easily dominant in the hands of many, many players. As such, it gets, and deserves, a perk.
I think that the c-hog has that potential and reality, though I could be wrong.
These are exceedingly poor examples.
Neither the K4 or the D9 is clearly the fastest unperked plane at typical MA altitudes. Many planes are very near both in speed. Neither is a great turner. The D9 is in fact almost the worst turner, beating only other 190s in that regard, and out-done by quite a few types in climb and accel. Its gun package is good but not uber. The K4 is quite the dogfighter in the right hands, double superior to quite a few models in fact, but boasts numerous serious weaknesses: poor dive handling, poor views, squirrely handling, and what is among the most difficult gun packages in the game.
The Tempest, by contrast, is the fastest prop job at typical alts, out-accels the whole field, carries the best a2a gun package in the game, and, here is the clincher, actually can out-turn the P-51Ds, P-47Ns, D9s, etc, that come nearest to being able to run with it, although most Tempest fliers make no use of this potential. The singular exception to this rule is the La7.
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Remember, when the F4U-1C was free it was always responsible for 15-20% of a tours kills and at the same time maintained a very high K/D ratio, and it did this before the F4Us had super flaps. Look at our current top four, they each get 5-8% of a tour's total kills and never vary much from a 1 to 1 K/D ratio. The Typhoon was there too, yet it never put up those kinds of numbers despite being faster and having four Hispano IIs as well.
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These are exceedingly poor examples.
Neither the K4 or the D9 is clearly the fastest unperked plane at typical MA altitudes. Many planes are very near both in speed. Neither is a great turner. The D9 is in fact almost the worst turner, beating only other 190s in that regard, and out-done by quite a few types in climb and accel. Its gun package is good but not uber. The K4 is quite the dogfighter in the right hands, double superior to quite a few models in fact, but boasts numerous serious weaknesses: poor dive handling, poor views, squirrely handling, and what is among the most difficult gun packages in the game.
The Tempest, by contrast, is the fastest prop job at typical alts, out-accels the whole field, carries the best a2a gun package in the game, and, here is the clincher, actually can out-turn the P-51Ds, P-47Ns, D9s, etc, that come nearest to being able to run with it, although most Tempest fliers make no use of this potential. The singular exception to this rule is the La7.
I'll grant the D9 is a stretch, but if we were to perk planes based on potential, the K4 fits the bill. It has poor dive handling and poor views. The squirrely handling can be harnessed. The difficult gun package can be mastered. Potential has nothing to do with difficulty. That is where reality comes in.
The K4 is a plane that could be perked (along with its competitors), but why would you? It's not unbalancing. Neither is the Spit XVI for that matter.
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Remember, when the F4U-1C was free it was always responsible for 15-20% of a tours kills and at the same time maintained a very high K/D ratio, and it did this before the F4Us had super flaps. Look at our current top four, they each get 5-8% of a tour's total kills and never vary much from a 1 to 1 K/D ratio. The Typhoon was there too, yet it never put up those kinds of numbers despite being faster and having four Hispano IIs as well.
Smaller planeset, and no XVI. Why not retest it just as an experiment?
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I'll grant the D9 is a stretch, but if we were to perk planes based on potential, the K4 fits the bill. It has poor dive handling and poor views. The squirrely handling can be harnessed. The difficult gun package can be mastered. Potential has nothing to do with difficulty. That is where reality comes in.
The K4 is a plane that could be perked (along with its competitors), but why would you? It's not unbalancing. Neither is the Spit XVI for that matter.
Bah, even Agent misses shots with the 30mm where a pair of Hispanos give a kill. The K4 is right on the edge of deserving a perk price given its abilities relative so much of the rest of the set, but IMO these factor are enough to edge it out of perk status, although its ENY is still far too high IMO.
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Bah, even Agent misses shots with the 30mm where a pair of Hispanos give a kill. The K4 is right on the edge of deserving a perk price given its abilities relative so much of the rest of the set, but IMO these factor are enough to edge it out of perk status, although its ENY is still far too high IMO.
Don't get me wrong--I don't think there's any reason on earth why it should be a perk ride in reality.
I'm just talking potential here. And I do not think potential is a good reason to perk something if the reality doesn't add up (see Ta152).
I think the Chog has the potential and the reality. I think the oft-hated hogs would be hated even more if those numerous brief snapshot scratches were replaced with numerous brief snapshot kills.
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Don't get me wrong--I don't think there's any reason on earth why it should be a perk ride in reality.
I'm just talking potential here. And I do not think potential is a good reason to perk something if the reality doesn't add up (see Ta152).
I think the Chog has the potential and the reality. I think the oft-hated hogs would be hated even more if those numerous brief snapshot scratches were replaced with numerous brief snapshot kills.
Ta-152 is another poor example. It never had much of anything going for it at typical MA alts that many other planes don't. Fast, but not the fastest, generally poor turner, etc.
I understand about how popular anything with quad cannon will be, but surely YOU must understand the irony I see in the C-Hog perk status when it presents fewer problems for many LW planes than some unperked planes do.
The only people I know of who "hate" Hogs are those who seem to believe that because it is big, it must have the same wing-loading as a P-47...
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Ta-152 is another poor example. It never had much of anything going for it at typical MA alts that many other planes don't. Fast, but not the fastest, generally poor turner, etc.
I'm not really seeing how the Ta-152 is a poor example, unless we're having a breakdown in communication as to what I'm using it to illustrate. It was perked for a good long while, and I can only assume because of its potential (the whole 3-cannon La-7 debunks the "rarity" argument IMO). However, whatever potential it may have in certain areas wasn't ever utilized by the reality of the MA (low alt fights, etc). Thus, it did not deserve a perk.
I understand about how popular anything with quad cannon will be, but surely YOU must understand the irony I see in the C-Hog perk status when it presents fewer problems for many LW planes than some unperked planes do.
I think this comes down to personal style... A hog (or, for comparison, F6F, Ki84, and possibly the P-47) will give me more problems than most Spits, 109s, 190s, 51s, etc. YMMV.
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Smaller planeset, and no XVI. Why not retest it just as an experiment?
You seem to not understand what it means that the F4U-1C had 15-20% of the kills and still managed to have a very high K/D ratio.
Normally when an aircraft is very popular its K/D ratio is suppressed by all the green players using it. That is why the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, La-7 and N1K2-J always have mediocre K/D ratios despite their obvious potential to have great K/D ratios. That did not follow through with the F4U-1C as it maintained a high K/D ratio despite being used enmasse by inexperienced players. The introduction of the Spitfire Mk XVI and La-7 did not cause the K/D ratios of the P-51D and N1K2-J to drop, I see no reason to think they would do so to the F4U-1C's K/D ratio.
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Ah hell perk it higher :aok
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No to this one HTC.
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You seem to not understand what it means that the F4U-1C had 15-20% of the kills and still managed to have a very high K/D ratio.
Normally when an aircraft is very popular its K/D ratio is suppressed by all the green players using it. That is why the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, La-7 and N1K2-J always have mediocre K/D ratios despite their obvious potential to have great K/D ratios. That did not follow through with the F4U-1C as it maintained a high K/D ratio despite being used enmasse by inexperienced players. The introduction of the Spitfire Mk XVI and La-7 did not cause the K/D ratios of the P-51D and N1K2-J to drop, I see no reason to think they would do so to the F4U-1C's K/D ratio.
I understand very well what it means, but I'm not so intimidated by it because you all might as well have been playing a different game then. Karnak, I thought you were all about experience trumping theory. Enough aircraft have been introduced since then to make unperking the C-Hog a worthwhile experiment. Come over to my side and be on the side of letting experience be the judge.
If it turns out to be a bad idea it can always be reperked again.
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The 152 when introduced could turn with nikis and spits for 2 turns, and not just high/med initial speed turns. Much better than now. It also didn't have such a squirrely tail end, incl. during said tight maneuvers. It had better e retention and gained speed faster (not sure on this one, though, just what I remember noticing when the FM changed) than now.. It could keep up with anything in the game.
Even now, the 152 has potential to be perked. But as Vudak says, it's a good example because of how difficult it is to extract that perk-worthy performance from it.
I don't think the Chog or F4U4 ought to be unperked. What about situations where you have no XVIs? e.g. CV vs CV. There'd be little use for the other CV planes. And considering how cheap the chog is, why bother? A couple of kills in a spitfire are enough to pay for it.
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Time for a senseless stats break!
I'm all in favor of unperking the C-Hog simply because the XVI is a good opponent for it. During CV fights you see droves and droves of XVIs defending, so why not droves and droves of C-Hogs attacking?
These two aircraft are well matched. In the name of consistency, it's better to unperk the C-Hog than to perk the XVI.
This got me curious again. After giving it some thought, I came to the conclusion that there is one CV plane that one can see very rarely outside of CV attacks: The F4U-1D
So I looked up the "killed by numbers" for tour 114. For comparison, I added F6F numbers.
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1500/f4u1dkillerstour114.jpg)
It's not exactly what I "droves after droves" does imply to me. But it's also certainly not as high as I did expect myself, for the Spit XVI seems to be the perfect base defender under such circumstances. But actually the Spit 16 kill numbers vs F-4UD are only slighty higher it's total arena average.
You now may continue with this thread ;)
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The 152 when introduced could turn with nikis and spits for 2 turns, and not just high/med initial speed turns. Much better than now. It also didn't have such a squirrely tail end, incl. during said tight maneuvers. It had better e retention and gained speed faster (not sure on this one, though, just what I remember noticing when the FM changed) than now.. It could keep up with anything in the game.
Even now, the 152 has potential to be perked. But as Vudak says, it's a good example because of how difficult it is to extract that perk-worthy performance from it.
I don't think the Chog or F4U4 ought to be unperked. What about situations where you have no XVIs? e.g. CV vs CV. There'd be little use for the other CV planes. And considering how cheap the chog is, why bother? A couple of kills in a spitfire are enough to pay for it.
That is interesting Moot, but nowadays the Ta-152 is not clearly superior to the P-51D, D9, or F4U-1A. So saying it has the potential to be perked makes little sense. A plane needs some extraordinary advantages in performance to be be perked.
BTW..."rarity" argument...okay, the Ta-152 was rare than the C-Hog. But it is not like there was some vastly more common and representative Ta-152 variants out there, as is the case with the C-Hog vs. regular Hogs. Something to think about. And Ta-152s don't operate off of CVs. :D
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I don't argue historical rarity.
The 152 is superior to the 51D, D9, and F4U1A. Not clearly, but it is. Part of the reason it's not clearly so is because of how deep into the envelope, and consistently, you have to reach to have a sum performance that's really perk worthy. But once you have enough stick time in all three, it's clear enough. The F4U is way lower. The D9 would also be a complete minor to the 152 except for it's speed. The 51D is lesser only because of its lack of acceleration; the 152 can just leave it behind (below) from low speed -- but overall the 51D is only lesser by a really small margin, and it's so much more eminently user-friendly that in practice it's clearly a better plane for the average player.
So, like others said, you can't realistically have an ENY system strictly decided by either potential or popularity. It has to be a comprehensive combination of both. There's another thread right now with this topic, so I'll leave that for that other thread. I think the chog is definitely on target with a price of 1-5 perks.. The 4-Hog really couldnt be free. Anyone that manages to keep the F6F or F4Us in the air long enough to get just a couple of kills, or dodge a few more attacks, would benefit from the 4-Hog's bonus in performance. It's not like the 152 vs 190s where it's really a different animal. That bonus in performance that makes the -4 the best prop dogfighter in the game is easily accessible.
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The 152 is superior to the...F4U1A.
I don't fly the others so I can't make a judgment call there, but I have a VERY hard time seeing this one, especially at typical altitudes in the Mains. Rate of climb and top speed are too close, with the 152 and 1A trading off advantages until the fight gets up above 25,000ft (which you don't see often in the Mains). In fact, the 152 is HEAVILY reliant on WEP to obtain any sort of advantage or parity in speed and climb with the 1A in the first place, especially at typical MA altitudes. The extended wingtips of the 152 impact its rate of roll--especially compared to the other 190s--while the 1A has a superior sustained turn radius with equal or better turn rate. The 152 has the heavier firepower, but the 1A has much easier gunnery and a superior sight picture.
At typical Mains altitudes, equal pilots, equal starting altitudes, the 1A will win that fight more often than not.
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I'll take you up on it anytime. The 152's wep? It lasts 10 minutes and takes just 5 to cool off. That means 15 min of effective wep (using when needed only) before really being out of that wep it "depends" on.
The roll rate isn't a problem. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.
1A wins the fight.. No way. The only way the 152 is inferior is in agility until it's down to ~10klbs with FWD, wing, or DT fuel. Till then it can just stay fast. Would you call the 262 inferior because it doesn't slow down for the 1A? The 1A doesn't keep up with the 152 as far as I've seen, in such a high speed fight. The 152 can just be patient and let that happen. No matter whether that's timid, it's what makes the 1A inferior IMO.
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Please remove the perks from the only US plane with any real Cannon (the C-Hog). The 190's, Hurrie-C, even spits have tons of cannon with no perks.
We really want to fly US aircraft but have to take German stuff to do any real damage!!!!!
Nein.
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I'll take you up on it anytime. The 152's wep? It lasts 10 minutes and takes just 5 to cool off. That means 15 min of effective wep (using when needed only) before really being out of that wep it "depends" on.
The roll rate isn't a problem. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.
1A wins the fight.. No way. The only way the 152 is inferior is in agility until it's down to ~10klbs with FWD, wing, or DT fuel. Till then it can just stay fast. Would you call the 262 inferior because it doesn't slow down for the 1A? The 1A doesn't keep up with the 152 as far as I've seen, in such a high speed fight. The 152 can just be patient and let that happen. No matter whether that's timid, it's what makes the 1A inferior IMO.
Nice apples and oranges comparison there.
The 152 doesn't have anything APPROACHING the speed differential over the 1A the 262 has. She's marginally faster up to 5k on WEP while the 1A takes over through 15k. The 152 has a band of a slight speed advantage until 20k where the 1A's second supercharger stage kicks in with both aircraft roughly the same, slightly favoring of the Corsair until ~22k, at which point the 152's specialization towards high altitudes takes over. Altitudes that are seldom seen in the Mains. Furthermore, the difference in airspeeds are ONLY within a few mph, neither of which are insurmountable. Neither aircraft has such an advantage over the other as to dominate the fight in terms of pure speed WITHOUT a starting altitude advantage.
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E retention.
Like I said, we can split hairs all day. I'm game for practical test anytime.
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Neither aircraft has such an advantage over the other as to dominate the fight in terms of pure speed WITHOUT a starting altitude advantage.
As moot stated above, the reason the Ta152 is such a fantastic aircraft is E-retention; especially in the vertical. The Corsair, good as it is at the same game due to weight and wing design, can not follow the 152.
This statistic is not easily measured, but exists all the same.
The ability to retain E is the period at the end of each engagement. The cartoon pilot who can seemlessly exchange speed for altitude, altitude for speed and either or both for an angle - with minimum loss of E - will win every time.
In this type of scenario, the huge advantage in low-speed turning radius that the Corsair enjoys is worthless because, in order to squeeze the perk-worthy performance out of the 152, youre going to E-fight in the vertical not turn and burn at 150kts - and in the vertical - a 152 will embarass my beloved K4 - let alone a Corsair.
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The huge advantage in low-speed turning radius that the Corsair enjoys...
Not the point of the argument, but keep in mind I never specified low-speed turning ability. Never even said flaps, either. Interesting mindset people have about the Corsair that they immediately assume all they're going to do is dump speed to go to flaps.
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Especially in the vertical but also in maneuvering. I don't know the specific aerodynamic math for it, but someone suggested it was due to the high aspect ratio.
I don't have as much experience in the 1A as I do in the 152, so I welcome anyone to come test it out in practice. Everybody can learn from the results.
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Especially in the vertical but also in maneuvering. I don't know the specific aerodynamic math for it, but someone suggested it was due to the high aspect ratio.
I don't have as much experience in the 1A as I do in the 152, so I welcome anyone to come test it out in practice. Everybody can learn from the results.
I'm a poor choice for it right now. Haven't been able to fly much and Murphy's been sitting in the cockpit with me every time I've gone up this tour. I'm on my way to setting a record for single-ping .303 p/ks. :furious
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Alright.. I'll try and see if Widewing & co have some free time for it.
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Quite a ways from the initial topic I suppose, but interesting. I tend to agree that a well-flown 152 using the vertical would be more than a match for the -1A, but I would like to see the theory tested.
I know when I find a pony who conscientiosly retains his E there isn't a whole lot I can do except entice him to follow me into a rolling scissors.
I'm worthless as a tester right now myself, I can hardly sit in front of the computer, I'm all doped up (abdominal surgery), and my computer isn't doing so hot. Hopefully all those factors will be gone in a week or two, hehe!
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Cool :) Two weeks it is :D
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My main point of contention is whether that one factor--the vertical--makes the 152 as superior as moot says, when most of the other characteristics are more or less equal (top speed, with a very slim advantage towards the 152 in acceleration) or are more favorable towards the 1A (maneuverability at both low AND high speeds, sight picture, gun ballistics). Especially considering that even if not quite that good, the F4U plays the E retention game very well itself. The 152 has a VERY narrow margin for error while the 1A has many more options at its disposal. It would be MUCH more accurate to say the 152 is superior in that type of fight.
That's why the Ki-84 is the one plane in the game that REALLY concerns me when I'm flying a 1A. The Ki matches extremely well with the 1A leaving a very slim margin for error, as the only clear advantage for the 1A is high-speed maneuverability. I don't like having to deal with Franks at co-alt and E. They're messy.
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No.. E retention in maneuvering is definitely better in the 152 and IMO it's at least as good and important as vertical performance. Combine that with the ability to make killshots with just 1 bullet and you have a plane that can afford to use absolutely no energy to make (track during) its shots. Only fly the ACM and stab the trigger at the right time.
From the start the premise was on potential.. Like I said, the 51, while very marginally being worse than the 152 in absolute potential, is much better in real world conditions where the imperfect non-zen pilot doesn't know the plane like the back of his hand and makes mistakes, etc. The point of contention that led to this 1A-152 comparison was how some planes were only potentially perk worthy, and how that was a good demonstration of why pure potential wasn't a comprehensive enough criteria for ENY. The 152 is definitely a good example.
But I maintain the tangent that flown at 100%, the 152 beats a 1A also at 100%. We're talking about the planes, not the pilots.
It's not just that the 152 is superior "in that type of fight"*. It's that the 152 is superior in the MA, and consequentially lower on the ENY scale. The 152 is probably more of an 8-10 ENY plane, but the 1A certainly isn't. That's the perspective of the argument.
*That was why I made that "apples and oranges" comparison, with the 262. Why would the 262 be considered lesser to any prop because it doesn't turn or accelerate as well at lower speeds, when it can clinch a win or make the other guy forfeit by staying fast? The 152 can do as much with the 1A (I've never had any trouble with 1As in the MA when I (admittedly not that often) fly "unfair".. never. Only the -4 can really keep up). Whether in a 1:1 vs the 1A, or in the MA furballs, that means the 152 is definitely better. Maybe not by much on paper, but in practice it's a significant difference.
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Not the point of the argument, but keep in mind I never specified low-speed turning ability. Never even said flaps, either. Interesting mindset people have about the Corsair that they immediately assume all they're going to do is dump speed to go to flaps.
I wouldnt state that I have a mindset of flaps out turn fighting with the F4U's because I used that as an example.
Im not ragging on your plane of choice. I love Corsairs. Its my favorite allied plane and Ill usually end each tour with more than a handful of F4U4 sorties. Its vertical performance is awesome - which is how I fly - but its still not quite up to the level of the 152 in that particular area.
In all other areas - yeah, Ill take the Corsair - but the 152 has it where it counts. Thats why I believe it to be superior to the (non -4) F4U's. If a plane has command of the vertical, nothing else matters.
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The 152 is simply a better killing machine.
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Unperk the C-Hog, but perk the Spit 16.
One step forward, and one step back.
I guess that passes as progress lately. :huh
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Unperk the C-Hog, but perk the Spit 16.
One step forward, and one step back.
I guess that passes as progress lately. :huh
Except, you know, the Spit XVI is not nearly the imbalancing factor that the F4U-1C is, so it would be more like one step back and another ten steps back as well.
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I can has -4 hog? :pray