Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rich46yo on August 22, 2009, 03:52:37 PM
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I think the Red Air Force in AH is 2 airplanes short from being a very formidable set.
The first needed is the TU-2s and the Yak-3p. You can then just skin the B-25s, B-26s, P-39s, A-20s, P-40s, heck even P-47s. No doubt we sent them gonies so skin them too.
But a set needs a good representation of home made iron. We get those two planes and I'd be ready to say I'd never fly anything the commies didnt. Well...maybe.
But the TU-2s and Yak-3 would really solidify the Russian set as a major player in the game. :salute
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The Soviet aircraft are already major players in the LWMA, with the La 7 and the Yak 9U. The area it's lacking in is the early/mid war set which is what I think really needs attention. The earliest Soviet aircraft we have beside the I-16 were introduced in mid/late 1943.
What would be nice would be, say a Yak 7, Yak 1, LaGG-3 or standard La-5, along with a Pe-2.... then there would be adequate coverage to run mid-war scenarios such as Stalingrad. <Awesome
Just MO...
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I-153 ftw :noid
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Yak-3P?
When was VE Day?
wrongway
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Although I've made this list very many times.. in the spirit of asking for a decent representation of the VVS, here it is again, the VVS planes we need:
[Yak-7A or -7B]: The most advanced fighter aircraft of the VVS in the early years of the war is considered to be the Yak-1. However, shortages in Yak-1 production initiated a plan to produce 'makeshift' fighter aircraft by using the resources allocated for producing the two-seat Yak trainer, UTI-26. From this design directly sprang the Yak-7 series, which quickly surpassed the Yak-1 in overall production numbers and practically became the two central fighters of the early days of the Eastern Front, along with the I-16.
[Yak-1B]: In 1942, the Yak-1 was refined into the next step of its evolution. Having put forth all of the major field modifications attempted to improve the still-lacking Yak-1 into a single airframe (which included a bubble canopy and a more powerful engine), the final 'standard' version came into production as the Yak-1B, a "light" Yak variant which finally could be considered a match to the German Bf109s fighting in the Eastern Front.
[LaGG-3]: While the Yakoblev Yak-1 and Yak-7 were considered as successful fighters, the Soviet attempts to produce more advanced fighter aircraft were still lagging behind. Many design teams, such as Mikoyan-Gurevich, tried to come up with a design better than the Yakblev planes, but were showing only limited results. Among them, was the Lavochkin-Gorbunov-Goudkov team, which came up with the LaGG-3. Although clearly inferior to its German adversaries, the LaGGs would form a large, interim bulk of the VVS until finally from its lineage the La-5 would evolve.
[Yak-9]: Just as the "light" Yak-1 would evolve into the Yak-1B, the "heavy" Yaks of the VVS - the Yak-7 series - would also be refined into the Yak-9, which quickly became the most numerous Yak version in 1943. In the latter days, this Yak-9 would reach the peak of its war-time evolution as the Yak-9U.
[La-5]: The immediate predecessor to the greatly successful La-5FN, the La-5 was a large modification and refinement of the LaGG-3, which in this form, finally began to show great potential. After the engine was switched to the Shvetsov ASh-82 radial, along with the appropriate design changes to accomodate for the new engine, the old LaGG design finally sprang to life. The La-5 would come to represent the middle point (and at the same time, the turning point) in the evolution of the LaGG line of designs, which would finally bloom into the most excellent La-5FN and the La-7.
... add these five planes to the current roster consisting of I-16, Yak-9T, Yak-9U, La-5FN and La-7 - a total of 10 fighter planes which would definately complete the most representative VVS fighter roster of the period between 1941 and 1945.
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I'm always interested in deployment dates, and production numbers as well for our events. Anyone have data to go along that?
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Would really like to see the Yak-3, just the regular version.
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Mig-3 would be a better addition than another Yak or the LaGG-3.
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I'm always interested in deployment dates, and production numbers as well for our events. Anyone have data to go along that?
Production numbers:
(http://users.tpg.com.au/adslqurg/VVS_Firghters_Production.gif)
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Mig-3 would be a better addition than another Yak or the LaGG-3.
Yes, MiG-3 is one of the most important fighters for russian front 1941 events (like "Barbarossa" or "Battle of Moscow" etc).
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Tu-2 would be nice then we wouldnt have to sub in B25C's
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Very nice, and hard to find Aper, Thanks! I'm discovering the Eastern front is the most interesting. Is the source for that material available? I'd like to check it out if there's more where that came from.
Thanks again. :salute
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Lagg-3 FTW.
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I double dog dare the VVS to get their Yak numbers straight.
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Very nice, and hard to find Aper, Thanks! I'm discovering the Eastern front is the most interesting. Is the source for that material available? I'd like to check it out if there's more where that came from.
Thanks again. :salute
There are tons of info about soviet aircraft production during the WWII nowadays but you need to be able to translate from Russian into English to get the most detailed and interesting data from it. Anyway you can try these books - there ara lots of photos, drawings and tables there. For example:
http://www.wuala.com/-aper-/AH/MiG-3%20Fighter.pdf (http://www.wuala.com/-aper-/AH/MiG-3%20Fighter.pdf)
http://www.wuala.com/-aper-/AH/I-153%20Fighter.pdf (http://www.wuala.com/-aper-/AH/I-153%20Fighter.pdf)
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Those production numbers are incomplete. You need to start from a much earlier year, as types like the I-153 and I-16 that were being produced from the mid 1930s were still serving years later. I'm also a bit incredulous about I-16 production ending in 1942.
I think it was wmaker who even mentioned that the I-153 was active over the gulf of Finland through the Spring of 1943. :O
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The Soviet set has no bomber. Thats 0%.
There are 5 major aircraft industrial players in the game, as there was in real life. USA, Britian, Germany, Japan, and The Soviet Union. Of the 5 only one doesnt have a level bomber in the game.The TU-2s is the natural choice cause it was their best bomber, as well as fitting the role of survivable attacker too.
As to the fighter needed? I have an inclination towards Yaks but theres a couple of fighters that I wouldnt mind. A Mid War bird wouldnt be a bad fit.
Still this is a great set only a few planes away from being 2nd to none.
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Very nice! Makes me want to see the 153 in-game. I'll have to wait for my son to arrive next week to read it to me. What a plane for pre 1942 ('37), bombs, drop tanks and is that a rocket I see.
The link to the Mig 3 is broken this morning, but I'll try again later.
Thanks again. :salute
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The Soviet set has no bomber. Thats 0%.
There are 5 major aircraft industrial players in the game, as there was in real life. USA, Britian, Germany, Japan, and The Soviet Union. Of the 5 only one doesnt have a level bomber in the game.The TU-2s is the natural choice cause it was their best bomber, as well as fitting the role of survivable attacker too.
Bombers:
(http://users.tpg.com.au/adslqurg/VVS_Bombers_Production.gif)
Tu-2 is the best choice for main arena while Pe-2 is the best choice for special events. So it's hard to make a choice :)
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The Soviet set has no bomber. Thats 0%.
There are 5 major aircraft industrial players in the game, as there was in real life. USA, Britian, Germany, Japan, and The Soviet Union. Of the 5 only one doesnt have a level bomber in the game.The TU-2s is the natural choice cause it was their best bomber, as well as fitting the role of survivable attacker too.
As to the fighter needed? I have an inclination towards Yaks but theres a couple of fighters that I wouldnt mind. A Mid War bird wouldnt be a bad fit.
Still this is a great set only a few planes away from being 2nd to none.
I agree that AHII desperately needs a VVS level bomber. I just think that the Pe-2 should come in before Tu-2. If AH would only be about MA, then Tu-2 would obviously be a better choise in terms of usability. In the MA the country of origin doesn't really matter to the masses and AH already has a fast level bomber in the form B-26 and fast attack bomber in the form of A-20G. Therefore I would rather see the bomber that saw the most use historically ie. the Pe-2FT. Tu-2's effect on the MA would rather insignificant compared to the boost Pe-2FT would give to the eastern front special-event -planeset. Hopefully we'll get both.
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IMO the MA misses the Yak3 of 1944. The Tu-22 was fast by VVS standards and might see some usage.
The scenaraio never played in AH to its full potential is Kursk. For which we would benefit from
Yak1/Yak7 variants(Yak 1 b would be sufficient IMO)
Pe2 (almost essential)
La5/La5F/Lagg3 (one of them at least)
Panther (would definatley see MA usage IMO)
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Pe-2 was a dive bomber................
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Pe-2 was a dive bomber................
Like the Ju-88, it was capable of both dive -and level bombing.
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I always thought it ( the Pe2) was never fitted with a level bomb sight and bombs were always released by the pilot (diving) using a PB 1 sight (same as the Yak and Lavochkin use) I suppose the bombs could be released in level flight but there was no (level) bomb sight to target with.
The ju88 had level sights when so equipped.
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I've always had the impression it indeed had a level bomb sight. It does have one in IL-2 -sim. Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War Vol.2 mentions that navigator had OPB-1M as the day sight and NKPB-3 for night use for the PB-100 (the type that evolved into Pe-2). Also I have a flight manual drawing in another book showing a level bombing sight.
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In that case my knowledge was incomplete............ strange I read that very volume to check and missed the reference. What page/column? ahh found it! section describing the PB100. well the Pe-2 could have had it too.
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well the Pe-2 could have had it too.
Yeh, I think so too although I couldn't find a direct reference. That particular sight was apparently also used in the TB-3:
http://gunsight.jp/b/english/data/sight-e-s.htm (http://gunsight.jp/b/english/data/sight-e-s.htm) (no photo unfortunately).
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Grabbed the Mig-3 pdf today.
Thanks Aper, at 110 pages, that looks very complete.
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Yak1/Yak7 variants(Yak 1 b would be sufficient IMO)
La5/La5F/Lagg3 (one of them at least)
Yak-1B (with M-105PF) does not cover the 1941 gap and is similar by performance to Yak-7B which is similar to Yak-9 which is similar to Yak-9T already modelled in AH except 37mm cannon. So it would be better to save time and money and just convert Yak-9T into "hybrid" version with different load outs. (20mm - Yak-9, additional fuel tanks - Yak-9D, 37mm - Yak-9T, etc)
To cover 1941 ("Barbarossa") gap the earliest version of Yak-1 must be modelled as well as MiG-3.
As for LaGG-3 it would be better to model "hybrid" version of LaGG-3 (M-105) which will represent all weapons modifications of late 1941 and early-mid 1942 (12,7mm , 20mm, 23mm and 37 mm). It will cover late 1941-early 1942 gap.
To cover mid-late 1942 gap La-5 (earliest version) must be modelled. It would be good to have Yak-7B as well but it can be substituted with Yak-9 20mm.
To sum up the results: Yak-1 (earliest), MiG-3, LaGG-3 (hybrid), La-5 earliest + Yak-9T converted into hybrid (Yak-9 with different load outs)
Pe2 (almost essential)
Yes, Pe-2 is a must. It's not quite clear which version though. Probably hybrid of 1941-42 to make it usefull for as many as possible special events.
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Grabbed the Mig-3 pdf today.
Thanks Aper, at 110 pages, that looks very complete.
You are welcome :) There is a pretty good book about LaGG-3 as well:
http://www.wuala.com/-aper-/AH/LaGG-3%20Fighter.pdf (http://www.wuala.com/-aper-/AH/LaGG-3%20Fighter.pdf)
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1942-43 is my favorite period, especially for eastern front events. The equipment, except for radios, was the most balanced with tactics and morale playing the pivotal roles imo.
Edit:
You are welcome Smiley There is a pretty good book about LaGG-3 as well:
Grabed it! :D
Thanks
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1942-43 is my favorite period, especially for eastern front events. The equipment, except for radios, was the most balanced with tactics and morale playing the pivotal roles imo.
If you ever fly an offline campaign in Il-2 in the Luftwaffe or VVS, you'll be fairly surprised by what types were in service in the VVS and may want to rethink that statement. The Lagg-3 was nicknamed "the coffin," or something like that, and continues to have a presence through the whole war. Same goes for the P-39. The I-16 and I-153 are both numerous straight into the middle of 1943. Even when you get to 1944, most VVS fighters are going to be Yak-9s (not the U) and La-5s (not the FN). It seems like the percentage of latest-and-greatest aircraft is only about 5-10%, and what passes for an "average" fighter on the German side is far more preferable.
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If you ever fly an offline campaign in Il-2 in the Luftwaffe or VVS, you'll be fairly surprised by what types were in service in the VVS and may want to rethink that statement. The Lagg-3 was nicknamed "the coffin," or something like that, and continues to have a presence through the whole war. Same goes for the P-39. The I-16 and I-153 are both numerous straight into the middle of 1943. Even when you get to 1944, most VVS fighters are going to be Yak-9s (not the U) and La-5s (not the FN). It seems like the percentage of latest-and-greatest aircraft is only about 5-10%, and what passes for an "average" fighter on the German side is far more preferable.
Offline campaign in IL-2 is not a valid source of info in this case. Only 75 I-16 and 86 I-153 were operational in mid 1942.
You may also take into account that Yak-1 and LaGG-3 in 1943 were quite different from what they were in 1941. La-5 FN was put widely into action in the battle of Kursk (July 1943). And in spring-summer of 1944 there was a massive re-equipment to La-7 and Yak-3. There were so many fighter planes available in VVS in summer 1944 that when Pokryshkin's squad (9th GIAP) received La-7 they still kept all their P-39 as a backup. The new P-63 received in 1944 were not even put into action but kept in reserve till the end of the war.
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Offline campaign in IL-2 is not a valid source of info in this case.
Of course it's not an academic reference, but the aircraft types, locations, and time periods were extensively researched. Moreover, the creators had access to a lot of Russian primary sources that remain untranslated.
Only 75 I-16 and 86 I-153 were operational in mid 1942.
I'm curious to know, then, how we explain the I-153's appearance over the Gulf of Finland in 1943. We are to presume the VVS kept a mere 86 obsolete aircraft operational for that long?
The new P-63 received in 1944 were not even put into action but kept in reserve till the end of the war.
This is another disputed point.
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I'm curious to know, then, how we explain the I-153's appearance over the Gulf of Finland in 1943. We are to presume the VVS kept a mere 86 obsolete aircraft operational for that long?
Anaxogoras, sorry if I mislead you a bit with that comment earlier. It was meant kind of as an extreme example. The statement itself is totally accurate but it might have given you a bit of a misleading view regarding the whole front. By mid 1943 VVS had only 36 I-153s left in service. Of those, most were based with the Black Sea Fleet but ten were still based at Lavansaari island base in the Gulf of Finland. :) They were facing 190s of the JG54 from the southern coast and Finnish Lentolaivue 34 with 109G-2s from the northern coast. :) They were replaced with a unit flying Yak-1s soon after. While the Soviet aircraft industry was already on fairly good speed by mid '43, there still were those couple locations where there weren't enough first line fighters for all the frontline units.
Here's VVS fighter strenght for March '44:
P-39--------528
P-40---------92
Hurricane----158
Spitfire-------52
Yak-1/1b----711
Yak-7/7b----797
Yak-9D/9T---665
LaGG-3------294
La-5--------1055
MiG-3--------121
Misc.---------64
As can be seen, it doesn't separate different subvariants. And as aper says, type '41 plane and '43 are different. But, no matter how one looks at it AH needs the lesser variants of the Yak and Lavotshkin fighter families for a somewhat accurate Eastern front planeset.
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To sum up the results: Yak-1 (earliest), MiG-3, LaGG-3 (hybrid), La-5 earliest + Yak-9T converted into hybrid (Yak-9 with different load outs)
The Yak9M whilst a 1944 variant of the Yak9T gives the same approx engine and loadout as the Yak 9D but in the existing Yak9T fuselage.
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Ok, thanks for the clarification wmaker. :)
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All things being equal-ish between the Yak-1, LaGG-3 and MiG-3; I'd rather see the MiG-3 in the game. I know most will disagree as it is slightly worse than the other two in climb, turn and armament, but the other two don't so outclass it in any areas as to make it nonviable in its proper time period. The Yak-7 seems to fit into the "we want it, but not critical for the VVS planeset to be complete" category. The Pe-2/Tu-2 issue has me equally divided: the former is faster & more agile and has more scenario potential, the latter carries more ordnance and would be more suited to the MA play style; climb rate seems to be close to one another, either would be nice.
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The problem with the Mig-3, despite the support from vonKrimm or aper, is that it lacks the specific aura of 'representativity' which a certain, central line of fighters for a certain specific WW2 combatant nation holds.
What I mean by this - compare it with side by side with the RAF Spitfires or LW 109s.
Currently, it can be said that all the major/most representative variants of the Spitfires and 109s are introduced in AH2. The list of these fighters keenly matches the timeline at which point those specific fighters were considered the most representative, and even 'iconic' fighters of the given period.
The rivalry between the RAF and LW is represented with this current line up AH2 holds, starting from late 1940 to 1945.
Starting from the BoB in 1940
the Spit1 : 109E pair of 1940...
then it comes to Spit5 : 109F pair of '41...
Spit9 : 109G2 of '42
Spit8 : 109G6 of '43
Spit16 : G14 of '44
... and Spit14 : K4 of '45
Every advancement in aircraft from one side of the Channel, brought forth a match from the other side, and as a result the list the Spitfires and 109s, as the backbones of the RAF and LW repectively, become historically most representative line of fighters for both countries during each time period during the war - and this selection of fighters is what AH2 currently shows.
My contention, is that the Yaks and the LaGG/La line of fighters, are in the same league as the Spitfires in their rivalry against the LW fighters, in a warring front which started from 1941 and ended in 1945. It is only fitting that the Yakoblev Yak, and LaGG/La line of fighters get a full representation according to each of the time period which marks significant advancement in aircraft evolution, just as the Spitfires or 109s, 190s and etc.. got the same treatment.
Besides, the Yaks and La/LaGG fighters were the backbone of the VVS, the most important fighters in historical representativeness.
Thus, I think that the 'matchup' should be noted in the following manner;
1941: Bf109E : Yak-1/7
1942: Bf109F/G-2 : Yak-1B
1943: Bf109G-6/Fw190A-5 : Yak-9/LaGG-3/La-5
1944: Bf109G-14/Fw190A-8 : Yak-3/La-5FN
1945: Bf109K-4/Fw190D-9 : Yak-9U/La-7
It is only after the two backbones of the VVS, the Yaks and Las, get a full representation that matches the respectable lineup of the Spitfires, 109s, and 190s, that I think the other, less-representative-but-interesting options such as the Migs, should be considered.
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The problem with the Mig-3, despite the support from vonKrimm or aper, is that it lacks the specific aura of 'representativity' which a certain, central line of fighters for a certain specific WW2 combatant nation holds.
.....
1941: Bf109E : Yak-1/7
1942: Bf109F/G-2 : Yak-1B
1943: Bf109G-6/Fw190A-5 : Yak-9/LaGG-3/La-5
1944: Bf109G-14/Fw190A-8 : Yak-3/La-5FN
1945: Bf109K-4/Fw190D-9 : Yak-9U/La-7
It is only after the two backbones of the VVS, the Yaks and Las, get a full representation that matches the respectable lineup of the Spitfires, 109s, and 190s, that I think the other, less-representative-but-interesting options such as the Migs, should be considered.
1941 without MiG-3 is like Battle of Britaine without Hurricane. MiG-3 was a backbone of VVS in 1941.
Your timeline is not quite correct : Yak-1B (M-105PF) comes late 1942 and can not be representative for 1942. La-5, La-5FN, La-7 and Yak-9U come earlier then you mentioned.
1941/42: MiG-3, Yak-1 (M-105) and LaGG-3 (M-105)
mid 1942: La-5 (M-82)
late 1942, 43: Yaks (M-105PF) and LaGGs (M-105PF)
mid 1943: La-5 FN (M-82FN)
mid 1944: La-7, Yak-3, Yak-9U (M-107)
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I don't recall that the MiG-3 was ever the backbone of the VVS.
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The problem with the Mig-3, despite the support from vonKrimm or aper, is that it lacks the specific aura of 'representativity' which a certain, central line of fighters for a certain specific WW2 combatant nation holds.
What I mean by this - compare it with side by side with the RAF Spitfires or LW 109s.
Currently, it can be said that all the major/most representative variants of the Spitfires and 109s are introduced in AH2. The list of these fighters keenly matches the timeline at which point those specific fighters were considered the most representative, and even 'iconic' fighters of the given period.
The rivalry between the RAF and LW is represented with this current line up AH2 holds, starting from late 1940 to 1945.
Starting from the BoB in 1940
the Spit1 : 109E pair of 1940...
then it comes to Spit5 : 109F pair of '41...
Spit9 : 109G2 of '42
Spit8 : 109G6 of '43
Spit16 : G14 of '44
... and Spit14 : K4 of '45
Every advancement in aircraft from one side of the Channel, brought forth a match from the other side, and as a result the list the Spitfires and 109s, as the backbones of the RAF and LW repectively, become historically most representative line of fighters for both countries during each time period during the war - and this selection of fighters is what AH2 currently shows.
My contention, is that the Yaks and the LaGG/La line of fighters, are in the same league as the Spitfires in their rivalry against the LW fighters, in a warring front which started from 1941 and ended in 1945. It is only fitting that the Yakoblev Yak, and LaGG/La line of fighters get a full representation according to each of the time period which marks significant advancement in aircraft evolution, just as the Spitfires or 109s, 190s and etc.. got the same treatment.
Besides, the Yaks and La/LaGG fighters were the backbone of the VVS, the most important fighters in historical representativeness.
Thus, I think that the 'matchup' should be noted in the following manner;
1941: Bf109E : Yak-1/7
1942: Bf109F/G-2 : Yak-1B
1943: Bf109G-6/Fw190A-5 : Yak-9/LaGG-3/La-5
1944: Bf109G-14/Fw190A-8 : Yak-3/La-5FN
1945: Bf109K-4/Fw190D-9 : Yak-9U/La-7
It is only after the two backbones of the VVS, the Yaks and Las, get a full representation that matches the respectable lineup of the Spitfires, 109s, and 190s, that I think the other, less-representative-but-interesting options such as the Migs, should be considered.
I was the 1st one in this thread to mention the Mig-3. :noid
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I don't recall that the MiG-3 was ever the backbone of the VVS.
It was in 1941. MiG-3 was put into mass production earlier than Yaks and LaGGs. All the production lines of Aircraft Factory No1 in Moscow (The most advanced and powerfull in the Soviet Union at that time) produced the new MiGs. 3,100 were built in 1941.
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Well three P-39Qs added in the next skin update anyway.. :aok
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,266750.0.html
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Mig 3's key role historically was the defence of Moscow toward the end of 41. The skies of course still belonged to the LW but the Mig 3 did successfully interdict/intercept higher(well high by 1941 standards) level LW bombers attacking Moscow and its suburbs/manufacturing facilities. Of course it found itself on other various escort duties during this period.
However with key Yakovlev and Lagg productions facilities "on the move" or sufferring plant commissioning delays the No 1 plant was the largest that was kept in production generating the highest production of any plant during the GPW during August 41 after equally significant production figures in June and July.
The VVS enjoyed a form of air superiority over Moscow during early December 41. This however was not due to air combat attrition but indeed freezing temperatures grounding LW aircraft.
In summary the Mig 3 (and the weather) played a significant bomber interceptor role over Moscow during the period Sept - Dec 41.
By march 42 it was generally being assigned to rear "defence" units in favour of Yakovlev's and even the must disliked Lagg3. By the end of 42 the only forward unit still utilising Mig3's was based in Stalingrad where the front had basically moved to it!
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mid 1944: La-7, Yak-3, Yak-9U (M-107)
Whilst it wouild be fair to say that the Yak3 was in a steady state of delivery to front line units from early summer 44 it would not be so of the La7 and Yak 9U IMO.
176 GIAP did have La7's as early as mid June 44 but the next regiment to be equipped was active only in late August (63GIAP) and serious roll out only began there after in Sept 44.
Equally the Yak 9U (VK107)whilst committed to production at virtually the same time as the La7 did not become active until Mid August 44 due to protracted problems with the engine.
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The I-16 was the backbone of the VVS's fighters in 1941, with close to 1/2 of VVS Fighter Regiments equipped with it in June 1941. The rest filled in the gaps. The combined strength of LaGG, MiG-3, and Yaks numbered 2030 total at this time, and it took time to get the Red Air Force properly modernised, especially after the invasion. The MiG-3 was certainly the backbone of the "better fighters", sure.
Lend-Lease #s for info:
16,661 a/c shipped to the USSR from 1941-45, of these:
5062 P-39s
2555 P-40s
3072 Hurricanes
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There was a small number of P-47s as well if memory serves.
Offhand I cant remember how many, less then 200 or 300, nor can I remember which version Jug.
P-40s too right? A-20s as well. B-25s, B-26s. Again Im going from memory here.
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The I-16 was the backbone of the VVS's fighters in 1941, with close to 1/2 of VVS Fighter Regiments equipped with it in June 1941. The rest filled in the gaps. The combined strength of LaGG, MiG-3, and Yaks numbered 2030 total at this time, and it took time to get the Red Air Force properly modernised, especially after the invasion. The MiG-3 was certainly the backbone of the "better fighters", sure.
I-16 was a backbone for a very short period of time due to the very heavy losses of VVS in June-July 1941. While the losses of I-16 could not be recovered the production of MiG-3 reached it peak in summer 1941. (496 MiG-3 were built in July, 562 (!) in August).
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I think the Red Air Force in AH is 2 airplanes short from being a very formidable set.
The first needed is the TU-2s and the Yak-3p. You can then just skin the B-25s, B-26s, P-39s, A-20s, P-40s, heck even P-47s. No doubt we sent them gonies so skin them too.
But a set needs a good representation of home made iron. We get those two planes and I'd be ready to say I'd never fly anything the commies didnt. Well...maybe.
But the TU-2s and Yak-3 would really solidify the Russian set as a major player in the game. :salute
I say good, but add the Il-4.
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The first needed is the TU-2s and the Yak-3p.
Something I forgot to mention earlier...
Yak-3P's production was starting when the war in Europe was ending. It saw no combat in WWII or in any other war for that matter.
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Hmm, well I do enjoy a good WW2 a/c debate, and respectfully disagree re: the MiG-3.
There were @ 12,000 fighters in the VVS at the time of the invasion, @ 6000 of those were I-16s. There were 1200 MiG-3s in service, with another 1900 built by the end of 1941 beg of 42. 3260 total, using your data.
The I-16 didnt need replacements to stay numerically top dog, as the MiG-3s were also being lost in the fighting. By no means was it just the more obsolote types being lost, and the MiG-3 shared that burden.
That and I have seen several quotes indicating that more than 1/2 the I-16s produced were still in service by 1943. I just dont see the MiG-3 ever being the most numerical VVS fighter, it was dwarfed by the I-16s #s in 1941, and after that year, it stopped production, to be outproduced by the LaGG and Yaks. The "sweet spot" for the MiG-3 would have been right at the end of 1941, where it was probably the second most numerical type, for a few months.
Also, it has to be said that there were many I-16s that were not stationed in the West, facing the invasion, but in the East, facing the Japanese, and in other quiet sectors where many of them would have escaped the cauldron of the fighting, thereby giving it a bit of a cushion #s wise. I-16s were transferred to the Soviet Naval Air Forces as newer types were brought on line in VVS units, rather than be just retired.
"Soviet Aces of WW2" by H. Morgan is a good source.
:salute
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There were @ 12,000 fighters in the VVS at the time of the invasion, @ 6000 of those were I-16s. There were 1200 MiG-3s in service, with another 1900 built by the end of 1941 beg of 42. 3260 total, using your data.
According to VVS reports the numbers of soviet fighters in service on the 22nd of June 1941 are:
I-16 - 2089
I-153- 1557
MiG-3 - 903
Yak-1 - 102
LaGG-3 - 0
That and I have seen several quotes indicating that more than 1/2 the I-16s produced were still in service by 1943.
Official VVS reports indicate that on the 30th of June 1941 837 I-16 left in service. In the end of 1941 - 240
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I think your looking at an OOB for a particular Military District (my guess is the one facing 'Barbarossa' directly), not Soviet combat a/c total (all fronts, VVS, PVO, Naval). Those #s are way too small.
The #s I have for the LaGG are 322 at the time of the invasion, Mig-3s at 1289 and 419 Yaks-1s. The fact that your OOB has no LaGGs at all, when we know it was in service, indicates a problem. It most certainly was not 0.
Losses to the USSR by the end of the first week of fighting alone was 4017 aircraft.
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The #s I have for the LaGG are 322 at the time of the invasion, Mig-3s at 1289 and 419 Yaks-1s. The fact that your OOB has no LaGGs at all, when we know it was in service, indicates a problem. It most certainly was not 0.
Your numbers are correct, but they are production numbers. All LaGGs on the 22 July 1942 required urgent fixes before they could be brought into action. Some MiGs and Yaks were built but still not delivered to squads. That's why official reports indicate 903 MiGs and 102 Yaks only available on this date.
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Official VVS reports indicate that on the 30th of June 1941 837 I-16 left in service. In the end of 1941 - 240
Are Soviet Navy Air Force numbers counted in those reports, by the way?
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Yak-3P's production was starting when the war in Europe was ending. It saw no combat in WWII or in any other war for that matter.
Agreed and the only difference was armament the Yak 3P was basically a standard Yak 3 with 3 x B20 cannon instead of the standard 1 x Shvak20 + 2 x 12.7 UBS.
Early Yak 3's only has 1 x Shvak + 1 x 12.7 UBS. They were a little lighter. This could be a loadout option.
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Are Soviet Navy Air Force numbers counted in those reports, by the way?
Yes, for the report on the 22 of June 1941. I am not sure about other reports as they are worded "on the front lines".
The exact number "navy" (Northern Fleet + Baltic Fleet + Black Sea Fleet) I-16 on the 1st of May 1942 is 91 including 27 required repairs.
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I have something about a soviet P51 being shot down. I don't believe its true but just wondering if it could've been.
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I have a picture of a Mustang with the red stars on it, so they had some.
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If we ever was to have a Barbarossa scenario the main bomber needed would be the SB. It made up the majority of the bomber force by far in the beginning. But since it will be of little use later on, with the minor exception that the FAF captured enough to equip a bomber squadron, the Pe-2 would be the better allround choice.
If we ARE talking pipe-dreams, the Yer-2 should be included, for just looking so awesome with it's inverted gull-wings. :)
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But the TU-2s and Yak-3 would really solidify the Russian set as a major player in the game. :salute
Yesssss!
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Waystin, can you please explain the excitement over the Yak-3? It would handle about the same as the Yak-9U, but be a little slower, have a slightly reduced climbrate, but turn a bit better. It's like asking for a 109F-4 when you have the G-2; good to have, but if you're missing a 109E-4 and want to run a BoB scenario, the E-4 should probably come first. The Yak-9U and Yak-3 are more or less contemporaries, but we need Russian aircraft for 1941/42/43.
I admit that if I were a huge fan of the Yak series I might share your sentiment, but from my perspective the Yak-1/1B and Lagg-3 (choose your variant) are more important for filling out the VVS planeset.
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Waystin, can you please explain the excitement over the Yak-3? It would handle about the same as the Yak-9U, but be a little slower, have a slightly reduced climbrate, but turn a bit better. It's like asking for a 109F-4 when you have the G-2; good to have, but if you're missing a 109E-4 and want to run a BoB scenario, the E-4 should probably come first. The Yak-9U and Yak-3 are more or less contemporaries, but we need Russian aircraft for 1941/42/43.
I admit that if I were a huge fan of the Yak series I might share your sentiment, but from my perspective the Yak-1/1B and Lagg-3 (choose your variant) are more important for filling out the VVS planeset.
Hello Gavagai,
The answer is much simpler than you would think. Ever see a car that you would love to be driving around in? For me the Yak 3 is like that. I think it has the awesome lines of a high end sports car. I would fly it, because I would love to fly it. That is the pure and simple truth Sir. I am not worried about filling a plane set, it's use in FSO or scenarios, or it's impact in the MA's. It's just sexy...
:salute
Way
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Ok. :)
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Yes, MiG-3 is one of the most important fighters for russian front 1941 events (like "Barbarossa" or "Battle of Moscow" etc).
I agree. I would like to fly a MiG in AH2 sometime! :aok
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I believe the Soviets received about 10 early-model Mustangs and tested them in combat. Some were thought to have been repaired by the Soviets as a result of (shuttle) missions, but none of the "possibles" ever saw Front Line action.
After the "10", they were never sent anymore.
But again, I'd rather see a MIg-3, before another Lavochkin or Yakolev.
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The Ilyushin DB-3 / Il-4
In the 1930s, the Soviet Union developed an advanced twin-engine medium bomber, the Ilyushin "DB-3", and put it into mass production. With the onset of World War II, the DB-3 would be developed into the improved "DB-3F" and the subsequent "Il-4", with thousands of these machines built and proving important weapons to the Soviet war effort.
ILYUSHIN IL-4:
_____________________ _________________ _______________________
spec metric english
_____________________ _________________ _______________________
wingspan 21.44 meters 70 feet 4 inches
wing area 66.7 sq_meters 718 sq_feet
length 14.8 meters 48 feet 7 inches
height 4.1 meters 13 feet 6 inches
empty weight 5,800 kilograms 12,790 pounds
MTO weight 11,300 kilograms 24,910 pounds
max speed at altitude 430 KPH 270 MPH / 230 KT
service ceiling 9,700 meters 31,825 feet
range 3,800 kilometers 2,360 MI / 2,055 NMI
_____________________ _________________ _______________________
http://www.vectorsite.net/avil4.html (http://www.vectorsite.net/avil4.html)
It looks like a great plane for events :aok
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The Yak-3 with the VK107 engine was too late to see combat in WWII. That is the one with monster performance. The WWII Yak-3 was powered by the VK105 engine. It still puts out pretty good numbers, but it is nothing like the Yak-3 with a VK107.
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The Ilyushin DB-3 / Il-4
It looks like a great plane for events :aok
Thank you. And It seems like it would be along the lines of the B-25C, and B-26B we have now, and not quite so good as the Ju88 for bombs. Meaning it would see (IMO) a lot of use in the early and midwar arenas, and decend use in the late war. I will put up a wishlist thread about this.
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Thank you. And It seems like it would be along the lines of the B-25C, and B-26B we have now, and not quite so good as the Ju88 for bombs. Meaning it would see (IMO) a lot of use in the early and midwar arenas, and decend use in the late war. I will put up a wishlist thread about this.
both B26B and Ju88 are way superior IMO, if I believe the site I linked they had more defensive guns, more bombs and were faster.
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And It seems like it would be along the lines of the (...) B-26B we have now,
The B-26 is probably the most survivable bomber in the game. The DB-3 would come no where close to it.
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The B-26 is probably the most survivable bomber in the game. The DB-3 would come no where close to it.
I meant in terms of bombload, and uses.
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Didn't the Russians copy the b-29 if we got that the people who oppose the b-29 wouldn't have to cry about it because its not technically a b-29. :aok
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Didn't the Russians copy the b-29 if we got that the people who oppose the b-29 wouldn't have to cry about it because its not technically a b-29. :aok
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 and :aok
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Didn't the Russians copy the b-29 if we got that the people who oppose the b-29 wouldn't have to cry about it because its not technically a b-29. :aok
It didn't see service until after the war. That throws that "great" idea out the window.
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how did this end up in a B29 thread ? do some research before roting other people's threads.
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Waystin, can you please explain the excitement over the Yak-3?
Indeed much of the Yak3 V105 PF-2 performance envelope is not too dissimilar from the Yak 9U V107. Indeed peak speeds are slightly higher on the Yak9U. However...........
The Yak 3 was considerably lighter (450/500 kg)with about the same power to weight ratio the Yak 3 had slightly less wing area (14.85/17.15) due to shorter wings than allother Yaks.
The Yak3 V105PF-2 seems to not have the top speed of the Yak9U but gave better acceleration at lower speeds, better turn rate by 2 secs/360 degrees and a better overall climb rate to 5000m even than the La7.
Its visibility out the cockpit rear was marginally better than all other Yaks. Out the front is had no armoured galss panel giving an unobstructed view when taking lead shots.
IMO (in game) it will be a far better furball tool than the Yak9U