Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: onan on August 27, 2009, 07:29:45 AM
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Hi to All :rock
Love the game.
This is what happens(to me):
Drive my Panzer for 20mins towards a busy enemy spawn or base. Being careful not to blow cover. Engine off every now and then. Listening when I know there are enemy GV's close. Hiding behind trees and shrubs. Made sure I got the right skin for the terrain. Got the correct ammo loadout. All sorted !
After checking this 'n' that, I find my place to plot-up and I'm ready.
The enemy base is flashing and the the GV's come swarming out.(lol 1 or 2 anyway)
I can see them but they not me. HaHa Perkfest!!
Then an Il2 comes and bangs my head in. :cry
My wish is for the Big Red icon above my prized ride to disappear to the Il2 pilot.
He can see me sitting amongst cover from 1-1.5k. All my work and effort gone down the pan
pretty quickly.
I posted a similar thread before but in the Help forum and was told it might be better received here.
I did get a couple of interesting replies though. One guy said (name escapes me) that an idea had come up
where GV icons were only visible to enemy pilots while the GV was moving.
I'm all for compromise. I know it takes good skill to bomb GV's
KlunK
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Yes, get rid of the GV Icons completely!!!
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And here we go.....
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That will be perfectly fair and consistent if we also get rid of icons above planes. Because how can an eagle-eyed pilot be able to spot a little Brewster six thousand yards away, but be unable to spot a thirty-ton tank at a mere 1,000 yards?
P.S. How is that Il2 pilot going to tell your Panzer from a friendly one without Icons?
P.P.S. Huh...come to think of it...how is a guy percolating along in a P-51D going to be able to tell the friendly IL2s from enemy ones? Etc and so forth?
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That will be perfectly fair and consistent if we also get rid of icons above planes. Because how can an eagle-eyed pilot be able to spot a little Brewster six thousand yards away, but be unable to spot a thirty-ton tank at a mere 1,000 yards?
P.S. How is that Il2 pilot going to tell your Panzer from a friendly one without Icons?
P.P.S. Huh...come to think of it...how is a guy percolating along in a P-51D going to be able to tell the friendly IL2s from enemy ones? Etc and so forth?
That would be great.
Country channel would be clogged with new whines.
Instead of "damn no check six",we could have...
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I don't how difficult or feasable something like this is...
But instead of getting rid of the big red icon above your GV/Plane, I think it would work better if you had a red outline around your GV/Plane. That way if you are under cover, you can't be seen as easily, yet still shows people who's friendly and who's enemy.
Other option I guess is to remove icons from enemies, but keep them on for friendlies.
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I wouldn't propose to remove friendly icons from GV's. How would you know where to drop supp's?
I don't think removing icons from planes would help either. That wasn't the point I was trying to make.
Although there is an option to alter the way icons are shown, by using Alt I.
I imagine the "little Brewster" is in flight and moving. If not it must have landed and is now a proxy GV.
Which would be cool for guys landing Goons. Soon as you land, turn off the engines and Hey Presto. No icon to give you away.
Maybe that as a condition would work. Engine off=no icon. Friendly's only have vis.
What I would like is an alteration in the way that (enemy GV icons only) are shown.
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I wouldn't propose to remove friendly icons from GV's. How would you know where to drop supp's?
I don't think removing icons from planes would help either. That wasn't the point I was trying to make.
Although there is an option to alter the way icons are shown, by using Alt I.
I imagine the "little Brewster" is in flight and moving. If not it must have landed and is now a proxy GV.
Which would be cool for guys landing Goons. Soon as you land, turn off the engines and Hey Presto. No icon to give you away.
Maybe that as a condition would work. Engine off=no icon. Friendly's only have vis.
What I would like is an alteration in the way that (enemy GV icons only) are shown.
My friend, in a real airplane you can easily tell a parked car from a truck at 5,000 feet. Hell, you can even see if convertibles have their tops down. Fundamentally, the icon system is there to make up for the limitations of computer screen depictions, and let me tell you, the icon system is already *very* fair to GVs.
The real problem with GVs vs. airplanes in AHII is that there are 10 times more people in airplanes than playing ground-forces in AHII,(the opposite of R/L), which leads to GVs feeling unfairly overwhelmed by attack planes quite abit. I don't see a simple solution to that one, so being bombed and strafed is something GVers
will have to live with for the time being.
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In the MA's with the mix of planes and firballs, you need the Icons for aircraft v aircraft... Not in AvA tho!!!
But there is no need for aircraft to have it so easy, seeing GV's on the ground... Its like everybody has bionic eyes like Steve Austin, MAJOR BS!!!! Your right, planes won't be able to tell what GV is friendly or enemy..
Thats the point!!!
The way it is now, is a built in game cheat... If ya didn't know who was who, you'd have to USE YOUR BRAIN before slingin bombs at any'ole gv down on the ground, wouldn't ya??? Otherwise, you'd be real popular with your game buddies, huh???
LOL, like in real life WWII, it was pretty easy to bomb the wrong guys!!! It happened alot!!! To prevent it, COMMUNICATE!!! Orient yourself over the battleground!!! DO YOUR JOB, as a decent pilot should!!!
Watch the friendly gunfire, versus the enemy gunfire... You can easily tell who is who, by which direction the shells are flying, LOL!!!! Its called situational awareness!!!
It's too stinkin easy to rape GV's right now.. It needs to be fixed!!! This would be a good, (and realistic) fix!!
RC
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Yes, get rid of the GV Icons completely!!!
This has been brought up before...
The jist of it was the icons on GVs were there to make it more realistic. IRL in a plane, you can spot a GV from 20 miles out (or so it seems ;)). Up in a plane on a clear day, you can see all the traffic, and in WWII, alot of the time when tanks were getting busted it was CAS...
Although, I would like to see rockets doing more damage to GVs...
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My friend, in a real airplane you can easily tell a parked car from a truck at 5,000 feet. Hell, you can even see if convertibles have their tops down. Fundamentally, the icon system is there to make up for the limitations of computer screen depictions, and let me tell you, the icon system is already *very* fair to GVs.
The real problem with GVs vs. airplanes in AHII is that there are 10 times more people in airplanes than playing ground-forces in AHII,(the opposite of R/L), which leads to GVs feeling unfairly overwhelmed by attack planes quite abit. I don't see a simple solution to that one, so being bombed and strafed is something GVers
will have to live with for the time being.
Ok "My friend" :confused:
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My friend, in a real airplane you can easily tell a parked car from a truck at 5,000 feet. Hell, you can even see if convertibles have their tops down.
Huh. I guess that is why the Army paints the Abrams bright pink, it just doesn't matter for visibility....
Oh wait.
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I don't see a simple solution to that one, so being bombed and strafed is something GVers
will have to live with for the time being.
GV formations?
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Or he could just bring along flak and/or a few Spitfires.
In actual life successful combined arms OPs absolutely depended on control of the air. The Germans, at Normandy, had numerous crack panzer units but the Allied control of the air interfered with their mobility. Most of all during the day. To even think that one tank should be able to upp and go about its business protected from air power is pure fantasy. Icons or not.
And I'll clue you in on something, take it from a guy who spends a lot of time in IL2s, most of the time its your fire that we see first. Not your icon. When a base alerts and there is a spawn in, as well as no dar-bar, it means GVs are inbound. It might be a sneak coming flying low but most of the time its a GV IB.
And they are so easy to find not because of their icons but because the tank drivers, %95 of the time, will drive a straight line directly to the base or town. Even if you took the icons away that would still happen. WWs almost always start shooting from way out of range and with tracers on. Had they just waited, turned tracers off, until my low IL2 was 1,000 away before shooting a lot of times I'd have been a dead duck.
And if aircraft shouldnt be able to tell friend from foe then why should fighters be able to tell friend from foe? Why have icons at all?
Well....at least this hasnt turned into a "neuter the IL2" thread yet.
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Or he could just bring along flak and/or a few Spitfires.
In actual life successful combined arms OPs absolutely depended on control of the air. The Germans, at Normandy, had numerous crack panzer units but the Allied control of the air interfered with their mobility. Most of all during the day. To even think that one tank should be able to upp and go about its business protected from air power is pure fantasy. Icons or not.
To think 1 il2 would up and kill 4 - 5 tanks with only its guns is just as much a fantasy, and completely absurd! :aok
Remove enemy GV icons---> Y E S ! :aok
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Here it is:
All the below pertain to the relevent "icon".
Planes can see planes*
Planes can see friendly GV's, Whilst the GV engine is on or off
Planes can't see enemy GV's, whilst the GV engine is off
Planes can see enemy GV's, whilst the GV engine is on
*Planes can't see enemy planes, whilst plane is on ground, stationary and engine off.
(might be useful to avoid being vulched. ie, taking off from the hanger instead of runway. Also when
landing Goons)
GV's can see planes
GV's can't see enemy planes which have landed and stationary, with engine off
Gv's can see friendly GV's
Final offer<S>
KlunK
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And I'll clue you in on something, take it from a guy who spends a lot of time in IL2s, most of the time its your fire that we see first. Not your icon. When a base alerts and there is a spawn in, as well as no dar-bar, it means GVs are inbound. It might be a sneak coming flying low but most of the time its a GV IB.
And they are so easy to find not because of their icons but because the tank drivers, %95 of the time, will drive a straight line directly to the base or town. Even if you took the icons away that would still happen. WWs almost always start shooting from way out of range and with tracers on. Had they just waited, turned tracers off, until my low IL2 was 1,000 away before shooting a lot of times I'd have been a dead duck.
...And, movement in general. If the dot I see is moving, I'm pretty sure it's not a bush. Mostly it's just a matter of following the origin of tracers though.
wrongway
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Huh. I guess that is why the Army paints the Abrams bright pink, it just doesn't matter for visibility....
Oh wait.
The fact remains that taking away GV icons would unrealistically compromise the ability one would actually have to observe and identify GVs.
That 109 we're able to identify at 6,000 yards is also camo-painted...
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The fact remains that taking away GV icons would unrealistically compromise the ability one would actually have to observe and identify GVs.
That 109 we're able to identify at 6,000 yards is also camo-painted...
You are being purposely obtuse ;)
Fact is, that 109 at 6 km away from you would still be just as visible without the icon, you just wouldn't know it was an enemy. 6 km away a GV can identify another GV also, though again it doesn't know it is an enemy or not.
That plane moving 6km away is visible to an enemy plane, and a GV moving across open area 6 km away is just as visible. The difference is a GV, sitting still with its engine off, in heavy trees, deploying camo and actively trying to hide is JUST as visible as one moving over open terrain. That is what is wrong.
My preferred solution: remove ALL icons from enemies. Friendly icons would still show, so you know who you are shooting at. GVs do this now, why not planes also? TIme to learn gunnery and ACM without having little icons telling you exactly what your firing solution is. No more lining up a tank's main gun on an IL2 and waiting precisely until 800 yrds to fire, knowing you will hit every time. No more seeing hiding GVs through heavy trees unless they are moving. No more sitting there in a plane knowing exactly what you are up against until you get into combat range and can physically identify them.
Course my hit percentage would drop further, but so would every one else's....
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You are being purposely obtuse ;)
Fact is, that 109 at 6 km away from you would still be just as visible without the icon, you just wouldn't know it was an enemy.
Then I'll assume you can identify all of the aircraft in this screenshot, the furthest A/C is at d600.
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq73/TheKinSlayer_1993/AHII/well.jpg)
If you guessed la5, seafire, and another zero, then I stand corrected, but to me, they look like everything else, and the zero at d600? Looks like a dot.
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Then I'll assume you can identify all of the aircraft in this screenshot, the furthest A/C is at d600.
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq73/TheKinSlayer_1993/AHII/well.jpg)
If you guessed la5, seafire, and another zero, then I stand corrected, but to me, they look like everything else, and the zero at d600? Looks like a dot.
And your point is? I said you can SEE the aircraft, just not tell whether they are friend or foe. I never said you could get a 100% ID on what it is, just that it was visible. Just like you could SEE the GV in open terrain without the icon, just not tell if it was friend of foe.
But right now you can SEE the GV hiding in the thickest woods, get a 100% ID on it AND know its exact range. While it isn't moving, has its engine turned off, sitting in the thickest thicket in the game and while painted the exact color of the brush around it.
My original post was in regard to being able to easily see vehicles on the ground, to which I say BS if they are purposely trying to hide from an aircraft AND have the tools to do it. A GV hiding in the woods shouldn't have a glowing "Here I am" red neon sign above them to assist planes. Other GVs don't get it, why should planes?
And no, I don't care if you remove the range icons from enemy planes at the same time.
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And your point is? I said you can SEE the aircraft, just not tell whether they are friend or foe. I never said you could get a 100% ID on what it is, just that it was visible. Just like you could SEE the GV in open terrain without the icon, just not tell if it was friend of foe.
I believe his point is, in real life, at 600 yards you can identify the aircraft and tell who is friend or foe.
In real life, it takes many, many more pixels to render an real object. In game, we have icons.
:devil
wrongway
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I believe his point is, in real life, at 600 yards you can identify the aircraft and tell who is friend or foe.
In real life, it takes many, many more pixels to render an real object. In game, we have icons.
:devil
wrongway
I'll give you (and him) that.
In real life while flying a single-seat fighter you wouldn't see that tank at 6k away, hiding in the brush under camo, no matter how good your eyes are.
In game we have icons :aok
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I'll give you (and him) that.
In real life while flying a single-seat fighter you wouldn't see that tank at 6k away, hiding in the brush under camo, no matter how good your eyes are.
In game we have icons :aok
You do not see GV icons at 6K.
You see them at 1.5K.
You've hit upon an area where icons are imperfect. Tiger in an open field? Damn right you'd see them a mile away. In dense cover with an elaborate job of camoflaging it? You might pass 50 yards away without seeing it.
Reality usually lies somewhere in between. Hence the shorter GV icons from the air.
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I think its the nature of the icon that seems unreal. A Gv in open country side is spotable at considerable range (black dots can be picked up).
We then have to fly close to identify them via icon. This aspect of the icon I do not have a problem with. it is used for identification purposes.
A GV in a wooded area is not easily spoted. Yet if we fly within icon range the icon pops up waving its bright red flag say hey I'm over here!! come bomb/strafe me. We would not have located the GV any other way and neither does this represent an actuality. GV's should be able to hide successfully (in dense cover) from airborne observation.
Addressing the icon it would be neat if objects masked it more thoroughly in some way such that not only should we have line of sight to the GV origin point but also a considerable distance either side before the icon pops up.
I think switching the enemy icon on/off under certain conditions could work toward it. I would favour motion as the switch rather than engine on/off. Motion is something that reveals other wise well comoflaged stuff to the observer.
Another option could just be camoflage. Allow a GV to dig in erect camo netting and hide its self. The erection and removal has a time penalty but causes its icon dissappear.
We then have to think of a way to remove these advantages from the spawn camper! or at least remove the sapwn camper altogether
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I think the Spawn camper is always going to be a part of this game anyway, icons or not. That's just the way some people play. Like the jerks who shoot down 'chutes.
(press 'O' when you can count the branches).
The camper is using a part of the way the game is set up to his advantage.
When in RL would a GV magically appear, time after time and in the same place?
Maybe ask for a cargo type plane which could drop GV's on chutes(next wish).
Sure there was one in WW2(don't know what it was).
Do away with spawns? NO!!!
Make the spawn area bigger, more random?
Back to the icon thing though. Just finished an hour in LWBlue.
Got near to an enemy base, parked up in a blown up barn. Engine off.
Had a good view of what I needed to see.
Got spotted from the air(maybe because of the icon above my head. not sure).
Spit drops a bomb. Missed.
GV's getting close.
Il2 throws cannon rounds. Am tracked.
GV's fire at the barn I'm in. Am Turreted.
Another bomb from a Spit. Dead.
Would anyone have known that I was in the barn without the icon giving my cover away?
I never fired a shot and my engine was off.
All the crap about- "can see this or that from 6k away" and GV icons are "very fair" just don't cut for me.
KlunK
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All the crap about- "can see this or that from 6k away" and GV icons are "very fair" just don't cut for me.
KlunK
"I don't like getting killed" trumps logic aye?
GV'ers will always face the problem that they are overwhelmingly out-numbered by people who want to fly, and the fact that GVs were and are very vulnerable to air attack. This does not justify some guy in a Tiger (or, more to the point, a wirbel) asking to be invisible when airplanes that are tiny by comparison have neon signs hanging over them.
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"I don't like getting killed" trumps logic aye?
GV'ers will always face the problem that they are overwhelmingly out-numbered by people who want to fly, and the fact that GVs were and are very vulnerable to air attack. This does not justify some guy in a Tiger (or, more to the point, a wirbel) asking to be invisible when airplanes that are tiny by comparison have neon signs hanging over them.
BnZs
It's been suggested that icons would still be visible whilst the GV's are moving/engine on.
Most planes are not tiny by comparison
GV's would still be vunerable from the air, icon/no icon.
KlunK
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BnZs
It's been suggested that icons would still be visible whilst the GV's are moving/engine on.
Most planes are not tiny by comparison
GV's would still be vunerable from the air, icon/no icon.
KlunK
Engine on/off is irrelevant and shouldn't make a difference. In R/L (unlike the game, *sigh*) pilots wouldn't kill their engines to listen for GV noise.
Tanks in this game have about the same bulk as WWII fighters. If you can spot one on the ground, you can spot the other.
Take away the icons from GVs btw, and the gheyery of flak draggin' will become far worse than it is now.
I'm sorry, I'm not an "anti-GV" guy,(I think the 37MM option on the IL2 should carry a light perk) but until you do literally have the ability to dig in around your tank and spread camouflage netting and what have you the game, there is no justification for changing the icons, other than whining about the fact that being under jabos and attack planes in a GV sucks. Well, it does suck, but it sucked in WWII also.
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While I understand these wishes, and believe those proposing them simply want to improve the game. I think the end product would be the game wouldnt be improved by removing icons. The simple fact is, and Im getting back to the original post, that its unrealistic to expect you should be able to motor in alone, in a Panzer-IV, to an enemy air base and not get pulverized by air power.
There is no Historical comparison to suggest otherwise. Single tanks simply did not deploy like that in actual war and no tank commander in his right mind would have tried. Armor worked best support by friendly air cover, flak, and artillary. A weak link in an enemies front line would be penetrated and off the GV columns would go.
You talked about all the care you took deploying to the base without admiting the deployment itself was flawed. Ive made some suggestions that would energize the GV war but didnt get much support for it. Instead we keep getting threads wishing for no icons or gelded attack airplanes.
Ill give you a tip. If you upp a T-34, park it under cover, on a slope where its tipped a bit to the side, makes it very hard for an IL2 to punch thru the top armor. Thats why a tracked tank often cant be finished off.
Other tips are obvious. Dont drive in the conga line, bring flak with you, make sure ords are taken out....ect
Maybe lessen the distance needed to see GV icons. Down to 1,000 maybe. That wouldnt be a bad compromise and would make flak even more effective against attack planes. Make it easier for spawning GVs to tower out, "another suggestion". Even tho such things would go against an IL2 stick like myself. In the end they would energize the GV war which would also increase the IL2 action. So thats a good thing.
I see good things happening GV-wise for the future. No matter which side of the ball your on. :salute
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"I don't like getting killed" trumps logic aye?
GV'ers will always face the problem that they are overwhelmingly out-numbered by people who want to fly, and the fact that GVs were and are very vulnerable to air attack. This does not justify some guy in a Tiger (or, more to the point, a wirbel) asking to be invisible when airplanes that are tiny by comparison have neon signs hanging over them.
I guess that means, that the allied aircraft that DAILY flew over the MASSIVE german buildup of tanks before the Battle of the bulge, without ever noticing them, JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN HUH.....? Why DID that happen?
Because they were HIDING UNDER THE TREE'S, DUH!!! Some just don't wanna loose their easycheezy kills!!!
So, I guess the answer should be: But no, those tanks and troops just materialized overnight, right? LOL!!!
RC
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Why not just get rid of all icons except friendly icons? I know its not a 100% fix but by only having friendly cons you would know that any dot on the horizon or a target on the ground is enemy. But without the icon you would not know what type of plane you are engaging until you had a vis. Now I would say once you get within 1000 then the plane type is displayed. Then by that time you choice but to fight or retreat. What do you all say??
BigKev
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Why not just get rid of all icons except friendly icons? I know its not a 100% fix but by only having friendly cons you would know that any dot on the horizon or a target on the ground is enemy. But without the icon you would not know what type of plane you are engaging until you had a vis. Now I would say once you get within 1000 then the plane type is displayed. Then by that time you choice but to fight or retreat. What do you all say??
BigKev
NO
Because no screen can match the resolution/field of view of your eyeballs.
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I guess that means, that the allied aircraft that DAILY flew over the MASSIVE german buildup of tanks before the Battle of the bulge, without ever noticing them, JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN HUH.....? Why DID that happen?
Because they were HIDING UNDER THE TREE'S, DUH!!! Some just don't wanna loose their easycheezy kills!!!
So, I guess the answer should be: But no, those tanks and troops just materialized overnight, right? LOL!!!
RC
Three concepts you should know:
High altitude, bad weather,night.
Three things that are unknown in the AHII MA.
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Three concepts you should know:
High altitude, bad weather,night.
Three things that are unknown in the AHII MA.
In reply, one concept you should know as well.... L5
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I'm all for getting rid of enemy GV icons when stopped. Makes sense to leave them on while moving or even while the engine's running, but a tank stopped and shut down in a thicket shouldn't be picked out by an La7 on climbout over top of him.
Like the jerks who shoot down 'chutes.
(press 'O' when you can count the branches).
Or hit enter three times, press /, type .ef, and hit enter.
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Like the jerks who shoot down 'chutes.
(press 'O' when you can count the branches).
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1165600036_bail.jpg)
:aok
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I'm a little torn on this issue but I see how it can be unfair for a tanker who seems to be hiding well from a plane but can easily be spotted due to icon. What is the current icon range set at for tanks from air? 1.5k,2k? I think 800yd icon range would be a lot more fair for tanks attempting to hide a little bit, but if the icon range was lowered or removed completely, you'd have m3s running a muck and sneaking into towns from all sorts of angles and stealing bases, they'd be impossible to spot and stop. You'd somehow have to keep current icon settings for m3s and sdks and lower icon range settings for the offensive tank units.
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That's why I say keep the icon when the motor's running.
I believe GV icons are 3k, but due to weirdness with terrain or something they pop up at somewhere between 2 and 1.5.
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That's why I say keep the icon when the motor's running.
I believe GV icons are 3k, but due to weirdness with terrain or something they pop up at somewhere between 2 and 1.5.
And I keep telling you that whether or not the motor is running is a complete irrelevancy. Pilots didn't LISTEN for tanks, nor did tankers really constantly kill and restart their engines to listen while they do in-game for that matter.
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Keep telling me? I just showed up, buddy. Cool off.
People didn't do a lot of things that exist in this game. Realism is sometimes put aside for immersion and/or playability, hence icons in the first place.
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Keep telling me? I just showed up, buddy. Cool off.
People didn't do a lot of things that exist in this game. Realism is sometimes put aside for immersion and/or playability, hence icons in the first place.
Not being able to see and identify airplanes with a 35 foot wingspans OR thirty-ton tanks at 1000 yards would *not* be realistic at all, hence the icons.
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I can turn off icons and identify tanks from quite a decent distance...maybe it's just me.
It'd be nice to see a comparison between how many people spot tanks only because of the huge red icon versus actually seeking them out, regardless of the icons.
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I can turn off icons and identify tanks from quite a decent distance...maybe it's just me.
It'd be nice to see a comparison between how many people spot tanks only because of the huge red icon versus actually seeking them out, regardless of the icons.
I normally can too.
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NO
Because no screen can match the resolution/field of view of your eyeballs.
Well i beg to differ! I can see dots on my horizon and I know that means I have an aircraft near the 6.0k range. I can also tell direction of flight. I can also see GV's moving. A little harder if they are not. I sometimes play without icons on just to learn a few things (which will remain state secrets, LOL). I know I don't have the best graphics card in the world but yet I can see rather well. Maybe some people are to dependent on the computer identifying aircraft for them rather than learning how to adapt to this game?????
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That will be perfectly fair and consistent if we also get rid of icons above planes. Because how can an eagle-eyed pilot be able to spot a little Brewster six thousand yards away, but be unable to spot a thirty-ton tank at a mere 1,000 yards?
P.S. How is that Il2 pilot going to tell your Panzer from a friendly one without Icons?
P.P.S. Huh...come to think of it...how is a guy percolating along in a P-51D going to be able to tell the friendly IL2s from enemy ones? Etc and so forth?
well you could do it the old fashioned way and get close enough to identify them instead of people just firing away from 800 out or whenever they feel like it. though there would have to be something added to the aircraft like a logo on the tail with a color so you can tell if it is enemy or not since it could be a p-51 vs a p-51...
but the fact is, how is the ability for a plane to spot a tank that is hiding under trees with a skin the color of the tree or of the ground around them realistic? before the new texture change, we had trees that you could go under and not be seen at all, but yet you could get turreted or tracked, killed, etc by an air con from above. tell me how they found me? the only possible way they could have found me is beceause of the red icon. now how is that fair to me? If im out in the open then yes, i should fair game to anyone, but when i cant be seen and then get killed by someone from above, thats complete BS because it is favored in the aircraft favor. the amount of aircraft in an area has nothing to do with it.
someone said earlier that GVers just need to live with it... i would bet that was from a constant fighter pilot... werent fighter pilots just complaining about the bomber pilots(the merit of why they did it doesnt matter) taking out hangars at a base near a furball? why dont you just live with that because thats absolutely no different then the fighter pilots coming over to tank town which has alot of thick brush and being able to drop and kill gvs that other whise they wouldnt be able to see without that tag or any other place that a gv battle might be happening where there is no intention to take the base.
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How would you gv types like it if the AC icons were removed?
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How would you gv types like it if the AC icons were removed?
From enemy planes? Sure, why not?
I'm all for removing enemy GV icons. The whole IL-2, B-25H, bomb**** thing is getting out of hand. I GV a lot, and I really appreciate a good GV fight. There's nothing worse than being in a decent tank battle and having some bomb****s show up and just pummel you into the ground continually. And don't even start with the "well just bring some wirbles" crap. There are plenty of times when there simply aren't enough people available to fill up all of the theoretical slots in whatever fight we're having. In real life these battles would be fought by thousands, in this game we'll have sometimes two or three guys on one side versus two or three guys on the other. And then the bomb****s show up and ruin it.
I've killed a metric zillion IL-2s, B-25s, and other planes with my main gun in my T34. Sure, it works with the worst of the noobs, but the more experienced ILtards know to just come in from a higher angle.
There's a very good reason there are no enemy GV icons when viewed from a GV. Every good tanker in this game knows that being able to estimate the range to the target is about 1/2 of the battle, with the other half being SA and clever mobility. There's really no good reason for airplanes ever to have an icon on an enemy GV.
I have been frustrated myself a few times when I was looking for a GV and I couldn't find it until I got within the magical 1.5k and got the icon. Good. I should have not even gotten the icon then, either. Give the poor guys on the ground a chance to be clever and remain unseen from the air, like it should be. We'd have to do a lot more to possibly tip the balance in favor of the guys on the ground.
+1 to removing icons from enemy GVs for all vehicle types, both ground (as it is already) and air (as it should be)
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I just thought up one very practical bonus to not having enemy GV icons.
Guys who dive-bomb tanks know to drop their bomb just when the range changes from 800 to 600. Any lower and they will probably drop too low and it won't go off. Any higher and the accuracy drops and it's harder to hit with the bomb.
Removing the GV icons as seen from the air would remove the way to perfectly time the bomb drops. Guys would have to get very, very good at estimating the range to get the best drop they could while still having the bomb go off. I'm betting that the practical upshot would be a lot more bombs dropping from 200-400 yards higher than usual, with the consequent drop in accuracy, and increase in survivability of tanks against the bomb****s.
HTC, please take these things into consideration and remove enemy GV icons completely, from any vehicle type. There's no good reason planes should have enemy icons for GVs, and lots of practical upshot for removing them in terms of air/ground balance.
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well you could do it the old fashioned way and get close enough to identify them instead of people just firing away from 800 out or whenever they feel like it.
There are cases of pilots observing and identifying enemy A/C literally *miles* away. In AHII it is demonstrably impossible to consistently and correctly identify other a/c at 600 yards using normal zoom. No icons would mean it would no longer be Aces High, it would be "Legally blind Pilots High".
but the fact is, how is the ability for a plane to spot a tank that is hiding under trees with a skin the color of the tree or of the ground around them realistic? before the new texture change, we had trees that you could go under and not be seen at all, but yet you could get turreted or tracked, killed, etc by an air con from above. tell me how they found me? the only possible way they could have found me is beceause of the red icon. now how is that fair to me? If im out in the open then yes, i should fair game to anyone, but when i cant be seen and then get killed by someone from above, thats complete BS because it is favored in the aircraft favor. the amount of aircraft in an area has nothing to do with it.
someone said earlier that GVers just need to live with it... i would bet that was from a constant fighter pilot... werent fighter pilots just complaining about the bomber pilots(the merit of why they did it doesnt matter) taking out hangars at a base near a furball? why dont you just live with that because thats absolutely no different then the fighter pilots coming over to tank town which has alot of thick brush and being able to drop and kill gvs that other whise they wouldnt be able to see without that tag or any other place that a gv battle might be happening where there is no intention to take the base.
The trees in AHII do not form any sort solid canopy. Just not in the design There is no "Amazon Basin forest" terrain. The GV icon becomes visible at 1.5K for aircrat. That is 4,000 feet, less than a mile. If you think it would be impossible for a pilot to see a large tank even in broken tree cover from 4,000 feet, then you are again suggesting that we should be "Legally Blind Pilots High".
I have explained at length what the problem in AHII is. There are far more people interested in bombing GVs than in driving GVs, or in covering GVs for that matter apparently. And unsupported GVs *should* be fodder for any air forces the enemy brings to the table. I have been in a GV getting bombed *far* more often then I have been the bomber. It is annoying but does not justify illogical and inconsistent changes to the game.
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A-typical whine about all the other players ruining my game experience by shooting me. HiTech please set this straight so nobody kills my tank.
I'm all for removing enemy GV icons. The whole IL-2, B-25H, bomb**** thing is getting out of hand. I GV a lot, and I really appreciate a good GV fight. There's nothing worse than being in a decent tank battle and having some bomb****s show up and just pummel you into the ground continually. And don't even start with the "well just bring some wirbles" crap. There are plenty of times when there simply aren't enough people available to fill up all of the theoretical slots in whatever fight we're having. In real life these battles would be fought by thousands, in this game we'll have sometimes two or three guys on one side versus two or three guys on the other. And then the bomb****s show up and ruin it.
Thereyago. Game the game by shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank. "Just pleeeeze make it so airplanes cant kill me". :lol
I've killed a metric zillion IL-2s, B-25s, and other planes with my main gun in my T34. Sure, it works with the worst of the noobs, but the more experienced ILtards know to just come in from a higher angle.
I have an idea. Why not change the game so only you can see the icons and no-one else? Then we can make "your" tank impervious to bombs and heavy cannon. Then we can change the rules so that any airplane has to come into your tank flat so's you can gun them down with your main gun. And last we can make you invisible so nobody can kill you.
Whatcha think?
I have been frustrated myself a few times when I was looking for a GV and I couldn't find it until I got within the magical 1.5k and got the icon. Good. I should have not even gotten the icon then, either. Give the poor guys on the ground a chance to be clever and remain unseen from the air, like it should be. We'd have to do a lot more to possibly tip the balance in favor of the guys on the ground.
I knew this was going to turn into a Waaa-Waaa-Waaa thread. :lol
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Thereyago. Game the game by shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank. "Just pleeeeze make it so airplanes cant kill me". :lol
I have an idea. Why not change the game so only you can see the icons and no-one else? Then we can make "your" tank impervious to bombs and heavy cannon. Then we can change the rules so that any airplane has to come into your tank flat so's you can gun them down with your main gun. And last we can make you invisible so nobody can kill you.
Whatcha think?
:huh
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Tons of fun being a bomb****. Especially using something different like a TBM or B5N2. :D
As far as the GV icons go, how about this?
- Icons for Wirbles, Ostis and M-16s at 1.5. The current set up is a fair compromise here.
- Icons for troop carriers at 1.5. No way that the all-important troops get a pass.
- No icons for tanks except within 1.5 of the town or field. As long as tanks just wanna duke it out with other tanks, you'll have no icon. Try to kill the town or camp the field and the bomb light is on. :P
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+1 for caldera's idea
+2 for seth's idea. GV's should not have icons.
Edit - ENEMY gv's should not have icons.
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A-typical whine about all the other players ruining my game experience by shooting me. HiTech please set this straight so nobody kills my tank.
I didn't say anything about changing the lethality of the various weapons employed by airplanes against tanks. I'm talking visibility only. Do you have a problem with there not being enemy GV icons when you are in a tank? Do you mind having to spot enemy tanks by actually seeing the tank, rather than some neon sign over its head? If you think the "no enemy gv icons when viewed from a tank" setup, then why do you oppose it from planes? What makes planes so special that enemy ground forces should be pointed out with neon signs, but the tankers on the ground have to actually see the tanks?
Methinks you don't tank very much.
Thereyago. Game the game by shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank. "Just pleeeeze make it so airplanes cant kill me". :lol
You're obviously interspersing your conversation with me with some conversation with another person, because this cannot rationally be seen as a response to anything I said.
I agree that shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank, other than planes on the ground, is pretty gamey. I'm also probably the king of doing this in the MAs, and it's a distinction I am proud to bear. The bottom line is that in real life, while it would be unrealistic for tanks to shoot down airborne planes with their main guns, the tanks would also be accompanied by anti-aircraft batteries, infantry with automatic weapons, and so forth. Like I said before, tank battles in real life involved thousands of people. Fighters did not dive down and strafe tanks unhindered, passing five to ten feet over the tops of the tanks. IL2s were not free to just circle above and make countless dives onto a given tank and peck it to death, without having to run a gauntlet of various weapons fired at it from the ground. Show me where B-25s were ever used as anti-tank platforms in the way they are in Aces High.
Obviously, the air-to-ground fighter strafing and whatnot is occurring in a totally unrealistic way. If tanks in Aces High are able to kill stupid strafing fighters easily with their main guns, up to the maximum elevation of the gun (which isn't that high, really), then so be it. It's one of the few concessions tankers get for having to put up with hoards of Spit 16s and LA 7s strafing them constantly.
And the more experienced ILtards and B25tards know, after they've been main-gunned a couple of times, to just come down from a higher angle, higher than the main gun can elevate. I really hope you're not actually complaining about tank main guns killing fighters though. In the overall balance of things, I think that is the absolutely most trivial of problems in terms of realism.
I have an idea. Why not change the game so only you can see the icons and no-one else? Then we can make "your" tank impervious to bombs and heavy cannon. Then we can change the rules so that any airplane has to come into your tank flat so's you can gun them down with your main gun. And last we can make you invisible so nobody can kill you.
Why are you making a love muffin of yourself?
Whatcha think?
Apparently a lot more than you do.
I knew this was going to turn into a Waaa-Waaa-Waaa thread. :lol
I made cogent arguments, and offered reasoned justifications for my suggestions. You came into this acting like a clown in some sort of verbal food fight, and acted like a love muffin.
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Oh jeeze...just has to turn into a word brawl.
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I didn't say anything about changing the lethality of the various weapons employed by airplanes against tanks. I'm talking visibility only. Do you have a problem with there not being enemy GV icons when you are in a tank? Do you mind having to spot enemy tanks by actually seeing the tank, rather than some neon sign over its head? If you think the "no enemy gv icons when viewed from a tank" setup, then why do you oppose it from planes? What makes planes so special that enemy ground forces should be pointed out with neon signs, but the tankers on the ground have to actually see the tanks?
Methinks you don't tank very much.
You're obviously interspersing your conversation with me with some conversation with another person, because this cannot rationally be seen as a response to anything I said.
I agree that shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank, other than planes on the ground, is pretty gamey. I'm also probably the king of doing this in the MAs, and it's a distinction I am proud to bear. The bottom line is that in real life, while it would be unrealistic for tanks to shoot down airborne planes with their main guns, the tanks would also be accompanied by anti-aircraft batteries, infantry with automatic weapons, and so forth. Like I said before, tank battles in real life involved thousands of people. Fighters did not dive down and strafe tanks unhindered, passing five to ten feet over the tops of the tanks. IL2s were not free to just circle above and make countless dives onto a given tank and peck it to death, without having to run a gauntlet of various weapons fired at it from the ground. Show me where B-25s were ever used as anti-tank platforms in the way they are in Aces High.
Obviously, the air-to-ground fighter strafing and whatnot is occurring in a totally unrealistic way. If tanks in Aces High are able to kill stupid strafing fighters easily with their main guns, up to the maximum elevation of the gun (which isn't that high, really), then so be it. It's one of the few concessions tankers get for having to put up with hoards of Spit 16s and LA 7s strafing them constantly.
And the more experienced ILtards and B25tards know, after they've been main-gunned a couple of times, to just come down from a higher angle, higher than the main gun can elevate. I really hope you're not actually complaining about tank main guns killing fighters though. In the overall balance of things, I think that is the absolutely most trivial of problems in terms of realism.
Why are you making a love muffin of yourself?Apparently a lot more than you do.I made cogent arguments, and offered reasoned justifications for my suggestions. You came into this acting like a clown in some sort of verbal food fight, and acted like a love muffin.[/qoute]
Aww shaddup boy. Listen Im sure the entire world feels bad for you that people are actually trying to kill your GV in this game. We all have that problem too. Folks are always shooting at the rest of us as well. Its the self indulgent Waaa-fest that gets tiring. By the Waaa-tards like you. Its a Bi-weekly thing now. A Tank Queen gets his tank shot up and trots in here crying about it. In a flight sim game no less. This one tho I am saving.
:lol
[qoute]I'm all for removing enemy GV icons. The whole IL-2, B-25H, bomb**** thing is getting out of hand. I GV a lot, and I really appreciate a good GV fight. There's nothing worse than being in a decent tank battle and having some bomb****s show up and just pummel you into the ground continually. And don't even start with the "well just bring some wirbles" crap. There are plenty of times when there simply aren't enough people available to fill up all of the theoretical slots in whatever fight we're having. In real life these battles would be fought by thousands, in this game we'll have sometimes two or three guys on one side versus two or three guys on the other. And then the bomb****s show up and ruin it.
I've killed a metric zillion IL-2s, B-25s, and other planes with my main gun in my T34. Sure, it works with the worst of the noobs, but the more experienced ILtards know to just come in from a higher angle.
Its all about "you" aint it junior? You can game the game but nobody should be allowed to interfere with your game.
BTW try bringing some flak with you. :D
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Its all about "you" aint it junior? You can game the game but nobody should be allowed to interfere with your game.
BTW try bringing some flak with you. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzjbV-yTomY
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What part of "just as tanks cannot see icons for enemy tanks, planes ought not to either, for the following set of good reasons", is about me?
Seriously, wtf are you talking about?
Ah, I get it, you're just a troll. Nevermind.
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Yeah I remember you Sethie. Heres how you fight legit. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,263487.0.html
So now you want no icons and those pesky IL2s to come in flat so's you can whack them with your bouncing tank shell technique? :lol If I ever see you in tank town I think I'll upp some Lanc-stukas. :D Ive never done that before but one gamey road kill technique does deserve another.
At least I know how you kill so many IL2s. You use a cheesy,overlooked mistake in the game modeling. And here you are crying about bomb****s and icons. You naughty boy.
April 23, 2009, 06:19:39 PM » Quote
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For much of the last year I've been using a technique to kill planes that strafe my tanks. I am most often in the T34, and I have found this technique to be insanely good at killing a lot of fighter dweebs with nothing better to do than spray machine-gun and 20mm cannon rounds at my tanks. For the first few months I hardly told anyone about this technique except squadmates, and even then I never saw anyone else do it. In recent months I've been telling people about it, and still not seeing much uptake of the technique.
Recently I shared this technique with a bunch of tankers in the beta frame of the current Tunisia scenario, so I'm thinking some others are finally going to be doing it. I also recently sent film of this technique to some specific players whom I'd killed with it, and at least one of them, Strong10, has been doing it the last several days, and sending me excited PMs in game about how cool he thinks it is, and how many kills he's racked up with it.
Well, I want everyone to know about this. I may well reduce the number of kills I get with it once it becomes more generally understood, but that's OK with me. It will change the ground game to some small degree I hope, making it harder to get away with strafing tanks. I think this would be a good thing.
I am not talking about the technique of aiming just over the engine cowling of an incoming plane and firing an AP round into the engine or cockpit, killing the incoming plane. I do this technique as well, when I can, and it's very effective, and very satisfying.
This other technique is one I use when I know I will not be able to get my turret around in time to get a shot off at the incoming plane. It's also somewhat easier to get kills with, though shooting tank rounds into the engine block is pretty darn easy once you get the hang of it.
This technique is also often effective when the planes are coming in at too steep an angle to shoot at directly.
Ok, so now to the technique.
When you recognize that a plane is incoming to strafe you, turn your turret away from that plane. I mean exactly opposite of the plane's incoming path. As soon as the plane passes overhead, fire an HE round into the ground. The timing is not hard to get right, especially if your tank's engine is off, because you will hear a very pronounced doppler effect as the strafing plane passes overhead.
If you did it right, an HE round will be going off on the ground pretty much right under a plane that's usually no more than 20 feet or so off the ground. This will instantly kill most planes. Sometimes, when the angle isn't exactly right, you'll merely break a wing off or something, and they'll plow into the ground and die. On occasion I've merely lit a plane on fire, or smoked their engine, but these are fairly rare. By far the most common result is instant death.
This game has been around a long time, and I cannot claim that nobody else has ever done this. If so, then the technique has been invented independently multiple times. I invented it myself about a year or so ago having never seen it done before, or heard of it being done. Not having ever seen or heard of this being done before, I've thought of this as the Sethbag technique for killing strafing fighters, and I wanted to share it with everyone, so it becomes common practice for experienced tankers.
I've gotten very good at it. In tank runs with lots of planes eager to strafe me I've racked up as many as multiple dozen kills this way, or through a combination of this technique and direct-fire shots into the engine block.
Here are some film clips demonstrating this technique.
This first film demonstrates me blowing up a Bf 110 that strafes my tank. Notice that I see the plane coming from the commander's cupola position, so I know he's coming, and approximately from what angle. I switch to my gun, load up HE rounds, and take the shot as he passes overhead. It's not even perfectly underneath his plane, but he still blows up.
When viewing these clips, make sure to check the "Use recorded views" option, so you see what I was seeing as I did this.
t34 kills strafing 110
This second film demonstrates a kill against a Spitfire strafing me from the side. Notice that I see the incoming plane, and watch him for a couple of seconds, so I know he's coming. You can see me rotating the turret around to approximately opposite the flight path of the incoming plane, and take the shot. Instant plane kill.
t34 kills Spitfire strafing from the side
A couple of comments. In addition to the doppler effect that gives away the timing of the plane passing overhead, if you have good headphones you can tell as you rotate your turret about when you're pointed the right direction, because the incoming airplane engine noise will go from coming more out of one side of the headphones, to coming out more or less balanced in both sides. That means the guy's straight behind you, and he's going to fly right over the spot your aiming at on the ground.
Remember to depress the muzzle all the way down, so you shoot into the ground very close to the tank.
This technique works in any type of tank, but it works the best in the T34, because the T34 turret rotates so quickly, much more quickly than any other tank's turret. If you're moving, however, if you get a good feel for what direction the gun needs to be pointing to get this shot off, you can just turn the tank, and then jump into the gunsight for the shot. This helps if you're in a tank with a very slow-traversing turret, such as the Tiger.
And now, here's one more film clip, but it's not using the techqnique outlined above. It was just a very good tank to plane kill that I wanted to kind of show off. Sue me.
nice tank to IL-2 lead shot from main gun
Btw, this technique, once mastered, leads to other really cool tank vs. plane killshots. The other day I saw a 109 K4 diving in to strafe an M3 from my side that was about to release troops. I aimed my T34 main gun at the ground near the M3 and selected HE. When the K4 passed over the M3 I fired, and killed the K4. Unfortunately for me, my round hit too close to the M3 and the killshooter effect killed my own tank too. But I've done this with other friendly tanks where I killed a guy strafing them, without killing myself.
Anyhow, there it is, now discuss.
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His past posts have absolutely nothing to do with the suggested removal of icons on GVs in any sort of way...you're just happy to find a partial link between the fact that he uses tanks to pick on him.
If you like, I suggest you go start a thread whining about his conduct and taking jabs at his morality and duke it out there. This thread is about tank icons.
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Yes, get rid of the GV completely!!!
corrected
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Yeah I remember you Sethie. Heres how you fight legit. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,263487.0.html
So now you want no icons and those pesky IL2s to come in flat so's you can whack them with your bouncing tank shell technique? :lol If I ever see you in tank town I think I'll upp some Lanc-stukas. :D Ive never done that before but one gamey road kill technique does deserve another.
At least I know how you kill so many IL2s. You use a cheesy,overlooked mistake in the game modeling. And here you are crying about bomb****s and icons. You naughty boy.
I thought he made some really strong arguments in this thread actually.
Hey Seth, let me ask you question that I mentioned earlier in this thread. What about skdz and m3s icons? I think it would be an unfair base capturing advantage if planes couldn't see them. Do you think that tanks should only have icons deactivated when they aren't moving perhaps? And if that was the case, it would take a recoad to make it happen because I don't think the arena platform would allow such an option to be easily accessible...
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That's why I submit that icons be engaged when the vehicle's engine is on or the wheels are moving. As I've read (which isn't much), many tank groups were spotted due to the rumbling of the mechanics and the ground, not because a pilot looked down and saw tanks. Since that can't really be modeled (we generally don't have one giant pack of tanks, but rather single units spread out all over the place outside of TT), I think the above makes a bit of sense.
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Personally, I don't think enemy GVs should have icons at all, whether they're moving or not. M3s are actually the easiest GVs to spot in the whole game, as they appear (at least on my screen) as a very light, almost flourescent green, which stands out on the ground as they move. Plus, if you turn off your plane motor for a few seconds, you can hear where the GV engine noise is coming from, so at least you get a direction to look in. I know that's gamey in the same way I acknowledge that shooting down planes with a tank gun is gamey, but given the departure from real life conditions that we already suffer, it's a tradeoff between gameplay and realism. In real life there'd be all sorts of people on the ground looking for the enemy, hearing the engine noise, seeing the vehicles, etc.
Back to my troll critic: so freaking what? Yes, I blow up a lot of planes using my T34 main gun. And let me fill in the rest of the story here. Every one of the planes I kill is engaging in gamey, non-realistic behaviour themselves. For the most part if planes fly like planes in WWII really did, I can't touch them with my main gun. You tell me how many Spitfires or LA7s or Ponies or whatever strafed tanks and kept firing until the last instant and then passed 10 feet over the tank turret. How freaking gamey is that? And why do these dweebs do it? Because if they pump enough machine-gun bullets into my armor, they might be credited with the "kill" when someone else actually finally destroys my tank. How freaking gamey is that?
If you don't want to be shot in the engine block with my main gun, don't do that gamey-azz crap that people in this game do against GVs every single day. Do you have any idea how close to the ground a plane has to be to die when my HE round goes off in the dirt underneath him? Did planes in WWII ever really strafe vehicles and pass over them that low? NO! If you're blowing up to my HE rounds in the dirt, then I'm using a gamey, unrealistic tactic to convince you to stop doing your gamey, unrealistic tactic.
What's funny is that you throw my old post in my face as if I'm supposed to be embarassed by that. Hell no. I'm proud of that post. I've killed probably close to 120 planes this month alone in my T34. And all but about a dozen or so that I destroyed on the runway or coming out of the hangar were killed doing perfectly dweeby crap, and they deserved to die that way.
And none of this has to do with the OP. The question is whether guys in the air should see an icon for an enemy ground vehicle. I don't think they should. At all. Take away the "easy mode" neon sign from the airplanes against ground vehicles, and maybe a few more folks will actually up a tank, *gasp*, to stop an enemy tank attack.
If you want to bomb**** or ILtard against the tanks, then fine, do it. But why do you really need to have that neon sign handholding? Would it be too hard for you to bomb tanks without your exact altitude above the tank being shown to you in neon red?
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If you think the "no enemy gv icons when viewed from a tank" setup, then why do you oppose it from planes?
Very simple to answer. When tanking it is practical for you to use maximum zoom, scan around, and also use your main gun telescopic view to see and identify other tanks. And IMO, tanks are still unrealistically and problematically difficult to detect even with those advantages. Methinks there needs to be an additional view added to tanks "Tank commander w/ field glasses" or some such, basically a view as telescopic as the main gun view but from the pintle position.
Methinks you don't tank very much.
In my case, that would be wrong.
The bottom line is that in real life, while it would be unrealistic for tanks to shoot down airborne planes with their main guns, the tanks would also be accompanied by anti-aircraft batteries, infantry with automatic weapons, and so forth. Like I said before, tank battles in real life involved thousands of people. Fighters did not dive down and strafe tanks unhindered, passing five to ten feet over the tops of the tanks. IL2s were not free to just circle above and make countless dives onto a given tank and peck it to death, without having to run a gauntlet of various weapons fired at it from the ground. Show me where B-25s were ever used as anti-tank platforms in the way they are in Aces High.
Obviously, the air-to-ground fighter strafing and whatnot is occurring in a totally unrealistic way.
You are (correctly) pointing out that the reason GVs have such a tough life in AHII is the fact that there are consistently far more aircraft than GVs in the arenas. You are (correctly) pointing out that lightly armed fighters did not dive down and strafe tanks for the most part, albeit that is mainly because it would be a waste of ammo. They DID dive down and strafe nearly everything else you mention though. :D
Look, you hit the nail on the head about what is needed to protect your GVs...air cover or flaks. Both are readily available. If you can't find people in sufficient numbers to provide air cover or flaks, I'm sorry, I really am. But don't ask for a special invisibility advantage for GVs.
I mean, I like P-47s. Realistically they were used as escort fighters way up above 20K where they performed just as well, or better than almost anything. But in AHII there is hardly any action up there...so I guess I should just :cry on the forums to get HTC to change P-47D performance to be more competitive on the deck, or give me an invisibility cloak for my Jug, or some such nonsense.
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and while we are here enemy troops should not have icons either................ however then we can set capture to 20+ or even 30+ troops without dragging FR rates down watching all thos icons.(provided the FR is not trying to render every trooper at 1500 yards)
re GV's IMO they should be able to hide without the "I'm down here!" icon switching on. As I understand it when a players FR can "see" the origin point of a GV then the icon comes on. I would suggest just making this origin point area (that has to be seen) bigger and setting it so that it all has to be seen before the icon switches on.
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But don't ask for a special invisibility advantage for GVs.
There isn't an invisibility advantage being asked for here.
What is being asked for is a pro plane advantage to be relaxed in certain areas.
Q?: Would you see a GV parked under a bridge, in a barn/farmhouse, an enemy base hanger or in thick brush if not for the icon.
I'll be generous and bet 80% of the time no.
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Exactly. Currently, planes have an advantage against tanks that tanks don't even have against each other. Why the need for Easy Mode for airplanes? Are the bomb****s really that hooked on seeing their enemy pointed out in neon red signs above their heads, and the range to them being shown, constantly updated, so they can just drop their bombs at just the right altitude?
If guys in tanks have to learn how to judge enemy tank distance by sight, rather than use an icon to tell them the range, then what's so bad about guys dive-bombing tanks having to do the same thing?
I can't even tell you how many times, because it's so freaking many, I've been approaching an enemy base or town in some armored vehicle, or M3, and shut down under a grove of trees, and then had some plane show up and fly right up and bomb me, when there's no way he would have seen me but for the neon red sign above my head. It makes it impossible to be smart and hide, and use the terrain to one's advantage in a tank, and it's an incredibly lame advantage for planes when they hardly need any advantage. If anything, dive-bombing and strafing tanks in this game is unrealistically easy and risk free.
In my view, in this game we have airplane versus airplane fights, we have fighter versus bomber fights, and so forth. GVs exist in this game for those who enjoy that dimension. I currently don't mind the way tank vs. tank fights go. I currently think tanks should be fighting other tanks. If people want to bomb tanks then fine, they can do it, but they should not have an Easy Mode advantage in doing so, that in fact turns out to make tanks less attractive to people, and dramatically encrappens the tank vs. tank game. There's nothing more frustrating than being in a good, small-group tank battle and having some buttwipes show up over and over again in planes and bomb the tanks into the ground with relative impunity, and unrealistic risk vs. reward.
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In my view, in this game we have airplane versus airplane fights, we have fighter versus bomber fights, and so forth. GVs exist in this game for those who enjoy that dimension. I currently don't mind the way tank vs. tank fights go. I currently think tanks should be fighting other tanks. If people want to bomb tanks then fine, they can do it, but they should not have an Easy Mode advantage in doing so, that in fact turns out to make tanks less attractive to people, and dramatically encrappens the tank vs. tank game.
+1
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There isn't an invisibility advantage being asked for here.
What is being asked for is a pro plane advantage to be relaxed in certain areas.
The icon for seeing a GV from a plane will appear at 1.5K (almost within flak range). The icon for seeing a plane from a GV will appear at 6K distance. This hardly constitutes a "pro-plane" advantage.
Q?: Would you see a GV parked under a bridge, in a barn/farmhouse, an enemy base hanger or in thick brush if not for the icon.
I'll be generous and bet 80% of the time no.
You can't really say that. There are too many variables. I have some experience in this area. Frankly, a lot of times game or lost cattle are easier to spot from the air in brushy terrain than from the back of an ATV.
In the AHII 3-D world, there really is no terrain feature that completely takes away all possible lines-of-sight for an aircraft except possibly being parked deep within a hangar.A I imagine there are limits to what can be coded into the icon. I've said it before, it already seems like HTC has been fair about this, making your multi-ton Tiger's icon only appear at 1.5K no matter the conditions, while a small fighter's icon appears at 6.
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In my view, in this game we have airplane versus airplane fights, we have fighter versus bomber fights, and so forth. GVs exist in this game for those who enjoy that dimension. I currently don't mind the way tank vs. tank fights go. I currently think tanks should be fighting other tanks. If people want to bomb tanks then fine, they can do it, but they should not have an Easy Mode advantage in doing so, that in fact turns out to make tanks less attractive to people, and dramatically encrappens the tank vs. tank game. There's nothing more frustrating than being in a good, small-group tank battle and having some buttwipes show up over and over again in planes and bomb the tanks into the ground with relative impunity, and unrealistic risk vs. reward.
Frankly, if you don't want A2G or G2A action in the game, I think you'd be in a minority. I suppose that means also that only planes should fight other planes (no flaks?). And if you want exclusive tank v tank action, the main arenas in a game called "Aces High" are an illogical place to look for it. There is NOTHING unrealistic about a few unprotected/most unprotected tanks rolling under copious enemy air cover and getting the crap bombed out of them. Once again, the fact that you can't get fighter or flak cover for your tanks is a population dynamics problem, not something you can ask the HTC team to fix.
Frustration? There is nothing more frustrating than being a good 1v1 when interlopers show up. There is nothing more frustrating than getting shot at by flaks while chasing a bandit. (Have you considered what your invisible GVs would be like when people inevitably start using them to ack-drag?) If you want a completely non-frustrating experience, online gaming is possibly not the place for you. Further, there are at least a half dozen things more frustrating in GVing than getting bombed by aircraft. Spawn-camps, the visual difficulties that make one feel that they are fighting invisible entities, and the awkwardness of the tank interface itself are all worse turn-offs in GVing.
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Don't know if it possible due to programming challenges but I think this may be a compromise of some sort. what if GV icons were disabled until a GV comes within 1.5k or 2.0k of a base? That way the GV maintains some hiding capability unless spotted moving and then when you hit the 1.5k or the 2.0k mark your icon pops on that way you don't have the enevitable rush of Gv's to a base in the so called "invisisble" mode. Just a thought. The range could be adjusted either way.
Have fun on the hack,
BigKev
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Sethie isnt old enough to figure out name calling generally doesnt bring a very good response back.
His arguements are nothing new. This has all been suggested numerous times, as has been perk the ords, geld the IL2s, perk the 37mms. Its all good until it degenerates into I'm all for removing enemy GV icons. The whole IL-2, B-25H, bomb**** thing is getting out of hand. I GV a lot, and I really appreciate a good GV fight. There's nothing worse than being in a decent tank battle and having some bomb****s show up and just pummel you into the ground continually. And don't even start with the "well just bring some wirbles" crap. There are plenty of times when there simply aren't enough people available to fill up all of the theoretical slots in whatever fight we're having. In real life these battles would be fought by thousands, in this game we'll have sometimes two or three guys on one side versus two or three guys on the other. And then the bomb****s show up and ruin it.
Or..I've killed a metric zillion IL-2s, B-25s, and other planes with my main gun in my T34. Sure, it works with the worst of the noobs, but the more experienced ILtards know to just come in from a higher angle.
Its the old, "everyone else who doesnt do what I do is a tard", and "waaa,waaa,waaa I got my tank killed." And its twice weekly, this bonehead kid throwing in the added bonus of name calling. For Gods sake man up and play the game!
Icons only are useful when you are either flying directly over the GV or not far off to the side. And even then you can be very high in Alt. Just spending an additional 5 mins taking an indirect route to where you want to go will help immensly. Try taking a lone airplane to an enemy base and see how long you last against multiple cons. Why would GV'ing be any different?
I gotta tellya I think theres a lot of GV'ers who still want to play the game the old way. Back when one would suicide a base's ords and then take their tank anywheres they want. Still it wouldnt bother me if the distance for the GV icon was lessened. Maybe down to 1 k.
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Frankly, if you don't want A2G or G2A action in the game, I think you'd be in a minority.
If you read carefully what I have posted in this thread, in a handfull of posts, you'd know that I have never said that. I have repeatedly said that I'm not against planes attacking GVs in this game. My only comment on this has been that the Easy Mode be done away with.
At 1.5k a plane can easily spot a tank moving in the open. Unfortunately, at 1.5k the plane also easily sees GVs that are deliberately hiding under trees, inside barns, hangars, and what have you. You keep arguing that a plane would always be able to see a tank easily, even under trees, from a mile away (which 1.5k is almost). I respectfully disagree. Most of the tank paint schemes seem to be expressly designed to aid in camoflaging the vehicle, and a camoflaged Tiger, in a grove of trees, should not stick out like a sore thumb to a plane a mile away.
Then there's the issue of divebombing aids. The range indicated under the icon is a bombing aid, period. You cannot argue this. A bomb has to travel 1000 feet in this game to be armed. Drop it too low and it doesn't go off. Drop it too high and it's harder to hit with. The range indicator gives the vehicle bomber an Easy Mode bomb dropping gauge. He doesn't have to have any time of experience or skill in actually estimating his height over the target, he just watches the number. When it gets to the right number, he drops his bomb, pulls out, and flies off. This is Easy Mode. I'm sorry if you can't see that, but you cannot get away with denying it. It's Easy Mode, period.
I have repeatedly said that I'm not trying to do away with the air to ground war. If you wish to dive bomb tanks, then fine, but I want to see you do it without the Easy Mode advantages that come with the red neon sign and range indicator. When I kill an enemy tank in this game, I have to estimate its range correctly in order to score a hit with my main gun. Those who suck at range estimation tend to get killed off repeatedly by those who are good at it. There's no reason dive-bombing planes should have it any easier. On the contrary, it should, if anything, be harder to bomb a tank than to shoot it from another tank, since tanks in this game have so little they can do about it.
Once again, the fact that you can't get fighter or flak cover for your tanks is a population dynamics problem, not something you can ask the HTC team to fix.
This is a typical retort, with which I respectfully disagree. A solo guy can bomb**** tanks all day long. He doesn't need to drag a crew with him to enable it. You're arguing that it's reasonable for guys who wish to fight in a tank to have to drag around a crew with them the whole time just to enable that. There's no balance here - the solo bomtard is only adequately counteracted by a whole crew on the ground? Still, planes can carry bombs in this game, it's a fact of life. But there's no good justification for them doing so in Easy Mode.
Further, there are at least a half dozen things more frustrating in GVing than getting bombed by aircraft. Spawn-camps, the visual difficulties that make one feel that they are fighting invisible entities, and the awkwardness of the tank interface itself are all worse turn-offs in GVing.
Spawn camps can be frustrating, but the frustration need only last a few minutes. It's not that hard to break a spawn camp. Most of the time the spawn camper had to travel a while to get there. Kill him and the camp is broken. I've often died four, five, six times before I located the spawn camper and finally killed his nasty azz, but it can be done, then the tables can be turned. The tank interface becomes second nature with practice and good controls setup. The visibility problems can be mitigated to some extent by the use of sound. Turn the engine off quite often and gauge where the enemy is by the sound of his engines. There's all sorts of tactics and skills that one builds up in GVing a lot in this game. The only thing you can't really do anything about, without dragging a crew around to support you, is get away from bomb****s. Fine, so be it, but make the bomb****s learn to bomb accurately without Easy Mode on.
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At 1.5k a plane can easily spot a tank moving in the open. Unfortunately, at 1.5k the plane also easily sees GVs that are deliberately hiding under trees, inside barns, hangars, and what have you. You keep arguing that a plane would always be able to see a tank easily, even under trees, from a mile away (which 1.5k is almost). I respectfully disagree. Most of the tank paint schemes seem to be expressly designed to aid in camoflaging the vehicle, and a camoflaged Tiger, in a grove of trees, should not stick out like a sore thumb to a plane a mile away.
Like I said, the icons are limited. IF it was possible for the icon to be invisible when the airplane did not have a clear line of sight to the tank, that would be fine with me, however, I don't know that is possible. I know that getting rid of GV icons would be the poorer alternative. And the nature of the "tree cover" we have in AHII is thick enough to form a really solid canopy. I have some experience looking for lost cattle/stolen trailers and spotting game in a light plane, in East Texas. Know what that country is like? Animals can sometimes be easier to spot from 1000 feet above than they are at 50 yards down in the brush with them.
And the range icons don't make it "easy mode" divebombing any more or less than they make it "easy mode" gunnery in A2A fighting. Take away icons and that would be the *easiest* problem for the divebomber to solve, either through gun-site ranging or simple reference to the altimeter.
All you need to potentially take down the "bomb tard" is one guy in a flak or fighter aircraft. You don't need a "crew". Lone tanks are vulnerable to bombers/attack planes...bombers/attack planes are vulnerable to fighters and flaks...flaks are vulnerable to tanks...its a circle of life kind of deal.
And my thoughts about what beneficial changes could make GVing more fun are really fodder for another topic.
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Unfortunately, at 1.5k the plane also easily sees GVs that are deliberately hiding under trees, inside barns, hangars, and what have you.
:huh
You are overstating the problem. GVs inside barns or inside hangers, out of view of the airplane, has no icon FWIW.
I've lost GVs temporarily in woods as well. No LOS to the tank, no icon.
A more logical solution would be to suggest a terrain change to make it more similar to what it was like before the "Normandy/Bocage" terrain. There used to be a solid enough canopy in forests to give a GV a true chance to hide.
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:huh
You are overstating the problem. GVs inside barns or inside hangers, out of view of the airplane, has no icon FWIW.
I've lost GVs temporarily in woods as well. No LOS to the tank, no icon.
A more logical solution would be to suggest a terrain change to make it more similar to what it was like before the "Normandy/Bocage" terrain. There used to be a solid enough canopy in forests to give a GV a true chance to hide.
Something's broken of your end, since I regularly catch guys hiding in barns via their massive icon from an angle where I can't see the tank through the holes in the barn. I was just now sniping tanks I couldn't see until the icon popped up out of the little forests in an Il-2 until half the Knights quit and ENY blocked the Ilyushin.
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Frustration? There is nothing more frustrating than being a good 1v1 when interlopers show up. There is nothing more frustrating than getting shot at by flaks while chasing a bandit. (Have you considered what your invisible GVs would be like when people inevitably start using them to ack-drag?)
:uhoh
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Hey onan, do you not have a keyboard or are you prejudiced against words?
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:uhoh To me it said it all. My bad.