Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Stott on September 01, 2009, 12:27:43 PM
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I just saw this at mmorpg.com and linked to their site..They have some beta shots of variable weather, and lot of new terrain and...finally ..Rag Doll deaths on their infantry. I always get soem grief posting about them but you have to give credit where it is due. The videos really look good.
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http://www.battlegroundeurope.com/index.php/component/content/article/10-production-notes/2968-v131-preview-upgrade-includes-variable-weather-and-rag-doll-physic
I think this will work to look at them.
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Fun game if you hook up with a squad for the ground game but the flight modeling still sucks (has since game launched) and I doubt that portion will ever improve.
ack-ack
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It has it moments. They did find some error with their rudders that was inputting too much and the yaw seem much better. I think they have done something to inertia that is different from AH. The difference to me is subtle between the two sims so I cannot give either up. Their ground war always draws me back
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Fun game if you hook up with a squad for the ground game but the flight modeling still sucks (has since game launched) and I doubt that portion will ever improve.
This is at the very least "laughable" when you consider the number of people on here (including and majority of which, being vets) that post or comment in game all the time about crappy flight modeling.
I personally believe the modeling in here, though not perfect, is pretty good. I also dont believe the modeling in WWII is too far off.
The biggest problem with WWIIOL, from what I seen and from what many squaddies have told me over time, has nothing to do with the game itself. Instead is has everything to do with the subscribers. They unlike AHII didnt get the rollover of core vets from AW or WB by proxy of timing.
This is what makes me laugh even harder when I hear people including HTC suggest that the game survives because everytime a player leaves a new one takes his place, or that the children are the future. Guess what, thats why games like WWIIOL arent thriving, because thats their core. If you lose your vets and replace them with "the future" then you will have nothing more than transcient mediocrity.
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I went to WW2OL after AW died. Played for 3 years putting up with alot of problems. Patch 1.4 or so was about the best the airwar was for me. Later patches killed it. I made it to Brig General in the Luftwaffe in there before I left. Since then I guess they trashed all rank and have some brigade spawn stuff now.
The thing that bothered me the most, not so much with the airwar, but with the ground war, was that you could only see so many enemy at 1 time, even though the guy you cant see,sees you and kills you. Air battles dont seem so affected by that due to speed and ranges.
I doubt I'll ever try it again, but who knows.
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I can say from when I started 4 years ago, this game has come A LONG WAY. Both with better graphics and effects. They have updated their servers a few times and the lag problem has decreased ALOT, but however, like any other online game, it will always be there.
The rats released some videos of the new 1.31 version with new terrain, sounds, weather (YES RAIN!), and rag doll effects for the infantry.
The videos can be found here at youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpPIBvZEwuc&feature=related
(Ragdoll effects/new gun sound effects)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPsMuEX4E_U&feature=sub
(an overview of 1.31)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB76DZM2uFg&feature=related
(Weather in flight from a spitfire)
IM EXCITED FOR THE RELEASE!
:x :x :x :x
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Pulling the lawn chair in the shade, beer cooler ready, waiting for the fun to begin :D
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In 2002 I made a fake screenshot of rain effect. That was when I made other fakes as well, but the rain one finally did it and got told to slow down :D
(http://fishu.kapsi.fi/fakeju52/rainy2.jpg)
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Does this game require a subscription?
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I like the weather. WW2OL never worked well on my old computer, I should redownload it and see how it plays.
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Does this game require a subscription?
It used to require a subscription and a Cray computer to run it.
Regarding this title, it should have been "For all 10 of you who used to play WWII Online..look.." :x
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I've played it on and off since release, back in 2001. Until they work out a way of tracking bombs and their effects when you can no longer see them on your client, I won't play. At the moment, you can hit infantry with HE, but unless you can see them from your bomber (i.e. you are level bombing at a ridiculously low altitude), you don't register the hits. I only figured this out after a few weeks of bombing heavily congested towns and killing nothing. Very frustrating. The rest of the air combat was average at best.
The infantry modelling was pretty poor to be honest, even for 2001. It was so clunky compared to games such as Red Orchestra (which is still superior in terms of infantry modelling, and that's a 2006 game).
WW2OL was a fine concept. In my experience it has never delivered what was promised and I expect that you will need a Cray II to run the Unity II upgrade.
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I don't think I've played since 2002 or 2003. I was one of the 2nd group of beta testers.
I eventually got it running okay, but I quit fooling with it, even when I had a free subscription for being a beta tester.
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I've played it on and off since release, back in 2001. Until they work out a way of tracking bombs and their effects when you can no longer see them on your client, I won't play. At the moment, you can hit infantry with HE, but unless you can see them from your bomber (i.e. you are level bombing at a ridiculously low altitude), you don't register the hits. I only figured this out after a few weeks of bombing heavily congested towns and killing nothing. Very frustrating. The rest of the air combat was average at best.
The infantry modelling was pretty poor to be honest, even for 2001. It was so clunky compared to games such as Red Orchestra (which is still superior in terms of infantry modelling, and that's a 2006 game).
WW2OL was a fine concept. In my experience it has never delivered what was promised and I expect that you will need a Cray II to run the Unity II upgrade.
They did fix the tracking back in early 08, as long as your still in the world it will track even if you cant see the bombs. I level ABs all the time with 111s and register 15 kills on average, bombing from 6 and 7K
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Great game, hours of fun. IT was quite intense. We had over 30 people in our squad and alot of them were from Aces High. Once I get a new machine, I will probably sign up again.
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It used to require a subscription and a Cray computer to run it.
Regarding this title, it should have been "For all 10 of you who used to play WWII Online..look.." :x
It still requires a sub. And theres ALOT more than 10 people playing this game :D
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So I hear there's a bug that doesn't render damage on aircraft markings (ie hit the RAF roundels with 20mm and no damage is taken).... I also hear they corrected the rudder bugs that they've denied for years.
CRS's attitude towards customers, their tendency to avoid the truth, and play political games with squads and HC's left a sour taste in my mouth.
Then there's the whole issue of Doc.
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I'd almost rather have bodies disappear as soon as they're marked dead than ragdoll.
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They did fix the tracking back in early 08, as long as your still in the world it will track even if you cant see the bombs. I level ABs all the time with 111s and register 15 kills on average, bombing from 6 and 7K
Are you sure? They implemented an ordnance server? That was what it was going to take to rectify the bombing from altitude issue. I last played in the middle of 2008 and the issue was still there.
I’ve seen nothing in the news letters about an ordnance server.
Rag doll is good improvement, but it’s hardly groundbreaking. Red Orchestra had it years ago.
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Are you sure? They implemented an ordnance server? That was what it was going to take to rectify the bombing from altitude issue. I last played in the middle of 2008 and the issue was still there.
I’ve seen nothing in the news letters about an ordnance server.
Rag doll is good improvement, but it’s hardly groundbreaking. Red Orchestra had it years ago.
im positive that this was fixed, it was added when mortars came into play because of not being able to see the mortar hit.
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"It still requires a sub. And theres ALOT more than 10 people playing this game"
Hardcase! How ya been?
IMO WIIO is still pretty lame...
And ragdoll animation can't make up for the huge fundamental problems such as the
1990's graphics, 1980's view system, pogo stick flight model, waterbed bouncy
vehicle animations, "mist" layers in the air, serious visible con problems and over all
suckass gameplay with brigades and all the other "structure" crap they threw in a
few years ago. Can ya bail from aircraft yet? heheheh
But wgafs if the "world" is huge over there. There are a much better graphics, sounds
and realism (not to forget to mention more players and combat) per city block in one
of those so-called "shoe-box" games than there is in ten square miles of WWIIO.
Neat gimmicks still can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. See vids for what WWIIO
is really like...
Tanks uber alles!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLL9Ew-7GQ8
Bouncy, bouncy, loopety loop air combat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RciPpQS2Eyc
Para's are cool and mucho funno! (not really. a lot of time for nothing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pw9oFwjygU
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It is called STO..Server Tracked Objecs...Mortars, trucks, tank hulks, bodies and bombs, all are persistent and are not client side and there is talk of adding more.
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you cant really compare an MMO like WW2OL with red orchestra though.
WW2OL delivers solid gameplay against a LOT of other players (usually battles have 150+ people on each side fighting in one small area) in different roles (army/air/command).
The new improvements and goodies on this coming patch are nice but in my opinion the rats could've done something more useful than eye candy. Rag doll is eye candy considering you dont really shoot someone and watch them rag doll to death because you're too busy fighting.
the additional visual cover from the grass was great! That was REALLY needed. The new buildings and objects could use some work. The new capture system in my opinion sucks ... its like the rats trying to force players to cram like sardines in an existing flag where the REAL problem was the way the flags were almost next door to each other (making the holding/capturing of them such an exercise in camping skill it wasnt funny).
I unsubbed about 4 months ago and I was in the Allied High Command for a while.. im not resubscribing until the game receives the much needed (and asked for) HC->players comm tools, mini-map marking tools and above all, a reworking of the capture system (mainly location of capture objects. its DUMB to have modelled europe at 50% scale only to have people fighting 3km short of the towns!... id love to see flag buildings holding high ground locations, road junctions, etc) and a better, visible, destructible supply system like AH's trains).
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I was in one of the initial beta groups for several months before the first public release. In the VERY beginning the flight model was pretty good and comparable to what was in AH at the time. Shortly after I got in the beta; our squadron at the time LJK was accepted as a whole and we played both the ground and the air side. The ground proved to be the stuff for the game since one of the early beta patches killed the air war and boosted the ground. It was cool riding in a vehicle pulling an 88 and having it dropped off to ambush an Allied armor group that was coming down the road into one of the little towns. The bad part was not being able to see the infantry guy sneaking up to pop you in the back of the head because he was outside the object limit on your client.
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http://www.battlegroundeurope.com/index.php/component/content/article/10-production-notes/2968-v131-preview-upgrade-includes-variable-weather-and-rag-doll-physics
Flight model still sucks compared to AH but the ground war has just gotten a new face lift... I think I will be renewing my sub. when this update is released. Looks awesome and it's been a LONG time in the making. Think this is what it needed to actually bring itself up to graphical standard.
Thoughts?
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272979.0.html
search is your friend :D
AND BTW i found this interesting note on Wiki: Any truth?
"WWIIOL is continuously developed by Cornered Rat Software (CRS) located in Bedford, Texas, USA. The development team, who are affectionately known as The Rats, includes members with experience developing World War II flight simulations such as Air Warrior, WarBirds and Aces High. CRS is a wholly owned subsidiary of Playnet Inc. which administers subscriptions, billing, accounting, the worldwide networks and game servers."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornered_Rat_Software#Developers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornered_Rat_Software#Developers)
Ive played both WWIIOL and AH and both flight models are pretty top notch. WWIIOL just has a better damage model than AH
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Silly me. I don't come in the O club often sooo. :P :P
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272979.0.html
search is your friend :D
AND BTW i found this interesting note on Wiki: Any truth?
"WWIIOL is continuously developed by Cornered Rat Software (CRS) located in Bedford, Texas, USA. The development team, who are affectionately known as The Rats, includes members with experience developing World War II flight simulations such as Air Warrior, WarBirds and Aces High. CRS is a wholly owned subsidiary of Playnet Inc. which administers subscriptions, billing, accounting, the worldwide networks and game servers."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornered_Rat_Software#Developers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornered_Rat_Software#Developers)
Ive played both WWIIOL and AH and both flight models are pretty top notch. WWIIOL just has a better damage model than AH
I don't recall if any of the Rats were former Kesmoids (ex-Kesmai, makers of AW) but I know some were with WB but who from the Rat's worked on AH?
As for the flight model of WW2OL compared to AH, I have no idea where you get the impression that WW2OL's flight model is top notch, its anything but that. Hell, FA I think has a better flight model than WW2OL.
ack-ack
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How so Ack-Ack?
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Very cool graphics, sounds like they are testing before they release,
How much is it for this game?
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Very cool graphics, sounds like they are testing before they release,
How much is it for this game?
Free download
14.99/month
http://www.battlegroundeurope.com/
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I don't recall if any of the Rats were former Kesmoids (ex-Kesmai, makers of AW) but I know some were with WB but who from the Rat's worked on AH?
As for the flight model of WW2OL compared to AH, I have no idea where you get the impression that WW2OL's flight model is top notch, its anything but that. Hell, FA I think has a better flight model than WW2OL.
ack-ack
Not to mention ww2ol's wierd damage model, last I heard the RAF decals prevented wing damage on the spitfire.
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i currently play them both Aces High flight model is hands down far Superior, WW2 Online thou has a far Superior ground game hands down, Tanks, Ships, Artillery, and infantry. Taken towns is far more complexe than just dropping troops to cap, Infantry has different classes from rifleman,sapper,anti tank rifleman,motarman,light machinegun, submachine gun and sniper. not everyone can get everything in the game, it all depends on your rank. Ive been there sense they started up went thru all the real bad times but my ranks enough to access everything, games came along way
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AH2 has superior flight engine (WW2OL's is arcadish at best)... but WW2OL has superior flight 'feel' thanks to its full 3d cockpit and its icon system.
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http://www.battlegroundeurope.com/index.php/component/content/article/10-production-notes/2968-v131-preview-upgrade-includes-variable-weather-and-rag-doll-physic
I think this will work to look at them.
According to the rain on the spitfire's cockpit, it is flying slower than the rain drops. It is supposed to look as if the drops are coming straight at you, not from above to below.
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The raindrops now arre affected by the speed of the vehicle moving thru them. Something they did in a day...Killer...John McQueen one of the owners of Playnet, and Hitech, Dale Addink and Robert Salinas built Warbirds, they were deeep in Air Warrior...then each went their own ways.
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The raindrops now arre affected by the speed of the vehicle moving thru them. Something they did in a day...Killer...John McQueen one of the owners of Playnet, and Hitech, Dale Addink and Robert Salinas built Warbirds, they were deeep in Air Warrior...then each went their own ways.
HiTech played AW, wasn't a Kesmoid but if IIRC, he did make an editor for AW that allowed you to customize the cockpit art. Killer, I believe was also a player and not a Kesmoid. Actually, think at one time they all played AW but were never Kesmoids.
ack-ack
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Guess what, thats why games like WWIIOL arent thriving, because thats their core. If you lose your vets and replace them with "the future" then you will have nothing more than transcient mediocrity.
I was just over at the Battleground Europe
forums and chanced to glance at the number
of forum subscribers. I thought it would be
interesting to see how they compare with
Aces High. Here are the startling results.
Forum Registrations
(extrapolate to estimate player base)
Battleground Europe: 299,960
Aces High II: 13,026
All I can say is WOW! Shocked Hmmmm :rolleyes:
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You really cannot use a bulletin boards numbers to extrapolate much of anything. For example, how many of the bulletin board accounts are actually active? How many of those active are actually playing? How many people playing the game never bother with the bulletin board?
We could have 500,000 users registered on our board, if we did not clear it out regularly. A bulletin boards overall registered user count is a pretty worthless data point.
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You really cannot use a bulletin boards numbers to extrapolate much of anything. For example, how many of the bulletin board accounts are actually active? How many of those active are actually playing? How many people playing the game never bother with the bulletin board?
We could have 500,000 users registered on our board, if we did not clear it out regularly. A bulletin boards overall registered user count is a pretty worthless data point.
Wow u jumped on that fast :rock Nothing against U guys Skuzzy this is a great game also :salute I switch between u guys and the Rats when I get bored of one or the other ;) I do not no what there numbers are ,but I am certain they have just as many if not more.... That was a good point though :) " For example, how many of the bulletin board accounts are actually active?"
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"AH2 has superior flight engine (WW2OL's is arcadish at best)... but WW2OL has superior flight 'feel' thanks to its full 3d cockpit and its icon system."
Agreed with some reservation. In its complexity the WW2OL flight model is hardly arcadish but considering how the flight models have changed during the years I find it quite disturbing what has been sacrificed to "balancing" <-CRS Tm). I'm not sure what you mean with full 3D cockpit, though. In WW2OL your head rolls on a swivel (as in IL2) and you cannot move your views and save them like in AH and that is a major drag IMO. To me it seems that in WW2OL the pilot in the cockpit reacts more to different flight states which makes the experience more realistic. Also the engine damage modeling is better. Many times I have nursed a sputtering 109 home only just by running on low rpm and low manifold pressure.
Still no parachuting, even if the feature is supported as there are paratroopers in game. But you will get a "rescued" if you despawn from a flaming plane near a friendly town so I guess the parachuting is just not considered relevant to the outcome of the flight.
To compare flight model just load the game and try 109E4 in both WW2OL and in AH. To me they feel very much different and IMO the WW2OL E4 is more difficult to fly. The Spits are...mmmm, Spits... :D
-C+
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Very impressive stuff from WW2OL.
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"AH2 has superior flight engine (WW2OL's is arcadish at best)... but WW2OL has superior flight 'feel' thanks to its full 3d cockpit and its icon system."
Agreed with some reservation. In its complexity the WW2OL flight model is hardly arcadish but considering how the flight models have changed during the years I find it quite disturbing what has been sacrificed to "balancing" <-CRS Tm). I'm not sure what you mean with full 3D cockpit, though. In WW2OL your head rolls on a swivel (as in IL2) and you cannot move your views and save them like in AH and that is a major drag IMO. To me it seems that in WW2OL the pilot in the cockpit reacts more to different flight states which makes the experience more realistic. Also the engine damage modeling is better. Many times I have nursed a sputtering 109 home only just by running on low rpm and low manifold pressure.
Still no parachuting, even if the feature is supported as there are paratroopers in game. But you will get a "rescued" if you despawn from a flaming plane near a friendly town so I guess the parachuting is just not considered relevant to the outcome of the flight.
To compare flight model just load the game and try 109E4 in both WW2OL and in AH. To me they feel very much different and IMO the WW2OL E4 is more difficult to fly. The Spits are...mmmm, Spits... :D
-C+
I agree, I will settle for saying that AH has a better flight model, but WWIIOL flight model is not arcadish to say the least. It has a full blown damage model that effects aerodynamics of flight from bullet damage. It stalls, blacks out, engine over heats, ect. to say the least NOT arcadish
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Speaking of Battle field Europe I am getting ready to log in :rock Let's put it this way in all honesty the only real virtual Battle field is ww2ol..Aces is the arcade style of game hands down..It seems a lot of folks like that I do at times....When I feel like getting involved in a real WW2 sim I always head back to ww2ol... :salute
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"It stalls, blacks out, engine over heats... band bobbles the plane al about the sky like it was on the end of an elastic cord!
As for the last poster? True that the AH arena's are romper room for the fantasy minded but as for WWIIO being a WWII sim?
lol.
Just go to Youtube and watch the unedited, undoctored and the non-promotion videos to see for yourself what the game
environment is really like. It's quank. Pure and simple. Course players can fill in the glaring problems and missing bits with
thier imaginations to get a different feel.
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Just go to Youtube and watch the unedited, undoctored and the non-promotion videos to see for yourself what the game
environment is really like. It's quank. Pure and simple. Course players can fill in the glaring problems and missing bits with
thier imaginations to get a different feel.
Let's see here towed at guns..A real command structure. Sniper, rifleman, light mortar troops, lmgs, smgs, grenadiers .. Troop transports ,naval battles, air battles, supply lines ,bombers factories to bomb.. Paratroops tanks close air support ....What I like the most a real map :rock I also missed a lot of things...If u are judging a game bases on utube videos then :noid
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Based on Youtube videos? lol. Nope. I played it for a number of years. I got fed up
with the attitude of the developers, uber-sycophantic board denizens and the almost
permanent list of problems with each of your "parts" that were not dealt with. The
last straw for me was the brigade spawning/command structuring baloney creating
the inability to log on whenever *I* wanted to and partake in without being part of
some group. Let alone finding a decent battle being one that wasn't a case of
"Quank" (tanks ala Quake) and spawn camping.
The over all meshing of all those cool sounding parts you list just plain ole suxx.
IMO of course. Mainly because of all the idiotic issues with all of those pieces that
when used in the actual game environment causes the "gameplay" to, well, stink.
At the end of the day it's no different than AH. Your game doesn't provide for realistic
WWII combat any more than the AH main arenas do. (Probably a BIG reason they
changed the games name. Another being the horrendous reputation WW2OL has in
the mmpog world)
WW2O or Battlefield is still a fantasy combat environment letting paying subscribers
use modelled WWII equipment. Unless heavy squinting and large doses of of wild
imagination are used to overcome the major deficencies and problems the gameplay
is no different than that found in "Planetside" Only the art work differentiates it from
that game.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
There is no team play in AH?
ack-ack
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There is no team play in AH?
ack-ack
Sure there is, they call it hordes....... :lol
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Based on Youtube videos? lol. Nope. I played it for a number of years. I got fed up
with the attitude of the developers, uber-sycophantic board denizens and the almost
permanent list of problems with each of your "parts" that were not dealt with. The
last straw for me was the brigade spawning/command structuring baloney creating
the inability to log on whenever *I* wanted to and partake in without being part of
some group. Let alone finding a decent battle being one that wasn't a case of
"Quank" (tanks ala Quake) and spawn camping.
The over all meshing of all those cool sounding parts you list just plain ole suxx.
IMO of course. Mainly because of all the idiotic issues with all of those pieces that
when used in the actual game environment causes the "gameplay" to, well, stink.
At the end of the day it's no different than AH. Your game doesn't provide for realistic
WWII combat any more than the AH main arenas do. (Probably a BIG reason they
changed the games name. Another being the horrendous reputation WW2OL has in
the mmpog world)
WW2O or Battlefield is still a fantasy combat environment letting paying subscribers
use modelled WWII equipment. Unless heavy squinting and large doses of of wild
imagination are used to overcome the major deficencies and problems the gameplay
is no different than that found in "Planetside" Only the art work differentiates it from
that game.
Same here brother, Axis High Command for 2 years, 5 year sub.
And I have no idea what your talking about the brigade issue. If your talking about the fact you couldn't spawn into any town you want because you had to join another mission going on, then you obviously were not playing long enough to create your own missions.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Sure there is, they call it hordes....... :lol
:aok
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See Rule #4
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Tr1gg22, you might take a bit of time to realize whose board you are posting on.
While we do not mind other games being discussed here, we do not take it well when anyone is mindlessly derogatory and/or disrepectful of our work. Yes, it is disrespectful for someone to do that. If you cannot see that, then it is your problem. Do not bring it to our board.
EDIT: You really do not want to know what "nerve" you hit. I will say it has something to do with, "Sheesh, you gotta be kidding".
Ever invited someone over for dinner and all they did was complain about the food, decor, smell and so on? Do I need to elaborate?
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Tr1gg22, you might take a bit of time to realize whose board you are posting on.
While we do not mind other games being discussed here, we do not take it well when anyone is mindlessly derogatory and/or disrepectful of our work. Yes, it is disrespectful for someone to do that. If you cannot see that, then it is your problem. Do not bring it to our board.
EDIT: You really do not want to know what "nerve" you hit. I will say it has something to do with, "Sheesh, you gotta be kidding".
Ever invited someone over for dinner and all they did was complain about the food, decor, smell and so on? Do I need to elaborate?
I apologize skuzzy You guys have a great game also...I have played since tour 72 or some were around there...You guys have the best multi player flight sim hands down :salute
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No apologies or acolades needed, but thank you.
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AH2,WW2ol, fighter ace, targetware,Il2, hero's of the pacific, Pacific fighters, sky defenders(not a flight sim), falcon 4.0,lock on, these are all the flight combat sims I have played and were installed on my computer,
guess which one is still there? the first on the list Aces High ll, because all the others pale in comparison,
now I am not saying that all aspects of AH, is better then the rest, but the over all package of AH2, is by far the superior game. and when I say by far I am talking a friggin landslide.
the way those at HTC take care of there players and game, makes it for me an easy decision on which one I want to kill the bad guy in. ( or die by the bad guy, more often then not)
now that the update from AH is pretty much iron out, it is spot on :aok
and I give Kudo's to those who put there time and effort to make this game, you can tell its not about the money for those at HTC, ya that is a benefit to get paid to do something you love, but they love what this game represents , and it is easy to see that.
makes it a "no brainer" for me. :rolleyes:
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I've been playing WWIIOL for about a month now
and I have to say that the change has been dramatic
and very welcome. Not that there's anything wrong
with AHII per se, it's just that I have a need for
something more.
I have long dreamed of finding a WWII simulator that
combined the elements of other game titles I play
into a single gaming experience that allowed me to
immerse myself in a World War II warfare environment.
I have found just that in WWIIOL.
Before WWIIOL, I played Day of Defeat for ground
combat, Red Orchestra for armor combat, and AHII for
aerial combat. While AHII excels for dogfighting,
I was disappointed from day one that it allowed
P-51s to combat P-51s. That's not WWII, which is
what I seek.
In WWIIOL I have all three experiences in one
game title and at an affordable price. Finally.
Now one thing needs to be said. WWIIOL requires
some discipline to learn. It's not like AHII
where you can start racking up kills in a day or
two. The flight model is different and, to be
honest, I prefer the FM in AHII. There's not much
automation in flying in WWIIOL. For example, you have to
adjust trim as you fly, there is no 'auto-climb'
and the flight dynamics are less forgiving. Unlike
the planes in AHII that seemingly ride on rails, you
can easily stall your aircraft in WWIIOL. Anyway,
regardless of which persona you choose to play; air force,
navy or army, WWIIOL requires navigating a learning curve
and most of all, patience, to master.
Personally, I believe that I have been spoiled by the
easy flight model in AHII and consequently have had a more
strenuous time transitioning into the WWIIOL flight
experience...but I am improving...slowly.
The fastest way to improve, gain experience and accumulate
points that qualify you for more advanced weapons
is to join a squad. There are tons of them with
many exceeding 100 members. Heck, I've even run into
a well-known AHII squad in there! HINT: they were
manning anti-aircraft artillery. ;)
So what's the big deal about WWIIOL?
WWIIOL is deeply immersive and engaging to the mind
in a very profound way. It is as close to WWII as
you can get in a computer game. It is war.
It is multi-dimensional and complex.
When you consider that there is an actual front
line and an active ground war taking place the true
role of an air force can be fully realized. The
first time you participate in a mass Stuka
raid against an enemy base as support for a armor
& infantry attack you are hooked. It is combined
arms combat! Not virtual chess. The air war
affects the ground war. It is coordinated,
colossal and compelling. You don't try to merely
reset a map. You try to win the war.
Current Front:
http://www.battlegroundeurope.com/index.php/campaign-community/campaign-map
Aces High was a fine game to me for over 8 years
but I think I've outgrown it. I need something more.
I realize that most people will shy away from the
learning curve and initial complexity of the game.
But for those who yearn for a deeper challenge that is
seemingly inexhaustible, WWIIOL will definitly keep you
engaged.
I hasten to say that I'm not knocking Aces High or the
people who continue to enjoy it by any means. Aces High
is a very enjoyable game for those exclusively interested
in aerial combat and in that regard it beats WWIIOL
hands down.
But if WWIIOL had the same flight model, plane art and
diversity of aircraft, I believe it would quickly
dominate the WWII gaming landscape and leave all competitors
scrambling for subscribers. My uber dream is that the
developers of AHII, WWIIOL, Day-of-Defeat and Red Orchestra
would collaborate and create 'THE' WWII combat experience.
So, until that synergy is created, I've found the sim I
have always sought.
So to conclude, for me WWIIOL presents a deeper, richer
and more immersive gaming experience than AHII.
Something my mind sorely needed. :)
-
I give Kudo's to those who put there time and effort to make this game, you can tell its not about the money for those at HTC, {Quote from ink}
I have talked to Skuzzy on the phone when I was having a PC issue....Customer service is the best out there period...
I have talked to the billing department and kept my account active for three weeks on a promise they would have a check by a certain date...
I will tell you this ink it is all about the money.We in the United states call it a business...There is no charity work going here...
Htc takes pride in there work hands down ,but it is for a profit...By the way Delta that was a sweet wright up :salute
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I took a break a couple of years back from AH, and played WW2OL for a while. I played with 3rd Panzer.
I really enjoyed the ground game, it was fun. But the 3rd Panzer guys made up for the glaring problems with the game. I can also tell you that AH had at the time similar or higher numbers online. Since the time I played I believe ww2ol player numbers declined.
What I didn't like...
- the FM was silly, there were bugs that crs refused to acknowledge such as the floppy 109 and 110. The P-38 could hover.
- the collision model was bizzare
- the damage model was odd, hit a 190 with 1 20mm round and you shaved huge amounts of speed off the aircraft (there was even a spot discovered on the 190 that would blow the hole aircraft if hit with even a rifle round)
- I could hit spitfires with 88's and it would do no damage (I posted an animgif of this on the bbs that got quickly deleted)
- you had to hit in just the right place to do damage, for example you could fire an 88 AP round at a panhard and it would go right through doing zero damage (irl this would mush the crew).
- no real airfields
- the cockpit view is awful, you can't move your head around, the glass is modelled wierd is some aircraft so the view is terrible (I remember the 110 suffered this)
- politics, CRS's role in the 'HC's was despicable in the way it turned into an old mates club. And the way they treated decent squads was a shocker
- play balancing, they tweak the models, history went out the door early in the game
- cheating, sure hacks occur, but when someone is caught blatantly cheating (ie fraps film from both allied and axis views) and they don't get banned?
So what do I really like, well, I'm a father, I'm a busy guy. So my game play time is limited. Once a week I turn up for 2 hours of FSO awesomeness flying with the Nightmares. It has TEAM play that is as good as anything in ww2ol, it has historical immersion that is awesome, it has huge historical VARIED maps.
Tr1gg22 until you play in FSO or scenario's, which are the peak of AH goodness, you really don't know the real AH. Look here for an example http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274171.0.html
Oh and one more thing! The so called 64 (or 32 player limit), it doesn't work, the biasing is awful.
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Isn't the player limit those that display on your screen? Isn't that the problem of you getting killed by someone/something that you can see?
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Isn't the player limit those that display on your screen? Isn't that the problem of you getting killed by someone/something that you can see?
AH and ww2ol have similar player limits. ww2ol tries to be smart and biases it a bit, however that often means you might not see a tank 50m in front of you. It was not uncommon to hear guys debating the existance of a tank that was invisible to one player :D (but they can see you).
IIRC AH has a limit on the number of rendered planes in your field of view, above that you just see icons (correct me if I'm wrong skuzzy).
-
Yeah that must be fun. Driving along in your panzy tank have a good old time. Not seeing anything to engage then bang your dead. Man that seems like a hoot.
-
Tr1gg22 until you play in FSO or scenario's, which are the peak of AH goodness, you really don't know the real AH. Look here for an example http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274171.0.html
no matter what u guys throw together does not matter to me... I played all that stuff...What u guys do 1 time a week I do everyday in ww2ol :salute
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Yeah that must be fun. Driving along in your panzy tank have a good old time. Not seeing anything to engage then bang your dead. Man that seems like a hoot.
It does not work that way lol...If u do not see what killed u then it was ur SA :aok
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AH and ww2ol have similar player limits. ww2ol tries to be smart and biases it a bit, however that often means you might not see a tank 50m in front of you. It was not uncommon to hear guys debating the existance of a tank that was invisible to one player :D (but they can see you).
IIRC AH has a limit on the number of rendered planes in your field of view, above that you just see icons (correct me if I'm wrong skuzzy).
I played since 2006 and never ran into those variant problems.... By the way download it free try it for 2 weeks free just like aces see on ur own :mad: If u get killed most likely it was ur own faults :salute
-
Sorry not going to hand out my CC info for a "free trial" especially since they said I "might" get popped for a buck to make sure my card is valid. I don't care if it's the holy grail of games.
-
I took a break a couple of years back from AH, and played WW2OL for a while. I played with 3rd Panzer.
I really enjoyed the ground game, it was fun. But the 3rd Panzer guys made up for the glaring problems with the game. I can also tell you that AH had at the time similar or higher numbers online. Since the time I played I believe ww2ol player numbers declined.
What I didn't like...
- the FM was silly, there were bugs that crs refused to acknowledge such as the floppy 109 and 110. The P-38 could hover.
- the collision model was bizzare
- the damage model was odd, hit a 190 with 1 20mm round and you shaved huge amounts of speed off the aircraft (there was even a spot discovered on the 190 that would blow the hole aircraft if hit with even a rifle round)
- I could hit spitfires with 88's and it would do no damage (I posted an animgif of this on the bbs that got quickly deleted)
- you had to hit in just the right place to do damage, for example you could fire an 88 AP round at a panhard and it would go right through doing zero damage (irl this would mush the crew).
- no real airfields
- the cockpit view is awful, you can't move your head around, the glass is modelled wierd is some aircraft so the view is terrible (I remember the 110 suffered this)
- politics, CRS's role in the 'HC's was despicable in the way it turned into an old mates club. And the way they treated decent squads was a shocker
- play balancing, they tweak the models, history went out the door early in the game
- cheating, sure hacks occur, but when someone is caught blatantly cheating (ie fraps film from both allied and axis views) and they don't get banned?
So what do I really like, well, I'm a father, I'm a busy guy. So my game play time is limited. Once a week I turn up for 2 hours of FSO awesomeness flying with the Nightmares. It has TEAM play that is as good as anything in ww2ol, it has historical immersion that is awesome, it has huge historical VARIED maps.
Tr1gg22 until you play in FSO or scenario's, which are the peak of AH goodness, you really don't know the real AH. Look here for an example http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274171.0.html
Oh and one more thing! The so called 64 (or 32 player limit), it doesn't work, the biasing is awful.
Oh and one more thing! The so called 64 (or 32 player limit), it doesn't work, the biasing is awful.
Oh and one more thing u can have a 128 player limit and 2 years ago was a long time :salute The first things u loose site of are ur own player then things that are no threat to u then...Need I say more? most people that get killed get killed by things that are well hidden..U can not turn down everything so u can see tanks behind hills in this game....Whats the point of playing a ground war with tanks u can plainly see in the distance because u make a few graphics adjustments?
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It does not work that way lol...If u do not see what killed u then it was ur SA :aok
Yes, that's how it works in WW2OL. It was like that when I played during launch, and when I played again a couple of years later and when I tried it again over last Christmas. With the draw limit sometimes you will not see a tank or another infantryman that is close by but they can see you and kill you. It has nothing to do with SA but a limitation of the game.
ack-ack
-
While AHII excels for dogfighting,
I was disappointed from day one that it allowed
P-51s to combat P-51s. That's not WWII, which is
what I seek.
Those seeking to replay WW2 will not enjoy AH because AH does not aim to recreate WW2 in any fashion. It aims to simulate aerial and ground combat using WW2 planes and vehicles.
The flight model is different and, to be
honest, I prefer the FM in AHII. There's not much
automation in flying in WWIIOL. For example, you have to
adjust trim as you fly, there is no 'auto-climb'
and the flight dynamics are less forgiving. Unlike
the planes in AHII that seemingly ride on rails, you
can easily stall your aircraft in WWIIOL. Anyway,
regardless of which persona you choose to play; air force,
navy or army, WWIIOL requires navigating a learning curve
and most of all, patience, to master.
Personally, I believe that I have been spoiled by the
easy flight model in AHII and consequently have had a more
strenuous time transitioning into the WWIIOL flight
experience...but I am improving...slowly.
automating or needing to make manual adjustments really has nothing to do with the flight model of either game. If you don't like to use the automated features to make flying less troublesome in AH, any player can disable those functions and fly without using of the auto functions. What makes AH superior in the aerial department is its better flight model (i.e. the physics behind what makes the planes fly) than compared to WW2OL. WW2OL throws in stuff like pilot stamina, having to manually trim your plane and adjust RPMs as a selling point to tout how 'realistic and superior' their flight model is when none of those things make their flight model realistic when the physics behind it is mucked up.
ack-ack
-
Oh and one more thing! The so called 64 (or 32 player limit), it doesn't work, the biasing is awful.
Oh and one more thing u can have a 128 player limit and 2 years ago was a long time :salute The first things u loose site of are ur own player then things that are no threat to u then...Need I say more? most people that get killed get killed by things that are well hidden..U can not turn down everything so u can see tanks behind hills in this game....Whats the point of playing a ground war with tanks u can plainly see in the distance because u make a few graphics adjustments?
Do you have reading comprehension issues? I was not talking about tanks hidden in bushes. I was talking about two guys, a tank in the middle of the town, and only one guy can see it. Fairly straightforward.
-
See Rule #6
-
Wow I wonder how long it's going to be before someone violates Godwin's Law.
-
Yes, that's how it works in WW2OL. It was like that when I played during launch, and when I played again a couple of years later and when I tried it again over last Christmas. With the draw limit sometimes you will not see a tank or another infantryman that is close by but they can see you and kill you. It has nothing to do with SA but a limitation of the game.
ack-ack
well with 12261 flames u no all the answers :noid
-
Sorry not going to hand out my CC info for a "free trial" especially since they said I "might" get popped for a buck to make sure my card is valid. I don't care if it's the holy grail of games.
Well I do not blame u at all for that... I did not start this post and I was simply stating the facts cause I play ww2ol everyday... So I think I have a good idea of what is gong on in the game...But ack-ack is still a flaming homo :O
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well with 12261 flames u no all the answers :noid
No, just obviously a far better understanding how the game mechanics work than you do. Just read the WW2OL forums and you'll see a myriad of threads complaining about the draw limitations. Honestly, it's a limitation that is faced by pretty much any online or multiplayer game.
It main issue with the draw limit in WW2OL is how they do it, and the scenario that Vulcan described is very common place. You may not see that tank or soldier right in front of you because they aren't drawn on your front end and kill you without you ever knowing they were right in your face. Nothing to do with SA like you think but everything to do with a technical limitation(s) of the game.
ack-ack
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Wow I would say that he is aggressive when stating his opinion. Just wow man.
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Well I do not blame u at all for that... I did not start this post and I was simply stating the facts cause I play ww2ol everyday... So I think I have a good idea of what is gong on in the game...But ack-ack is still a flaming homo :O
The only person that is flaming or being insulting towards others in this thread is you and shows that you really can't hold a meaningful, adult conversation.
ack-ack
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
This threads going no where real fast :rofl :rofl
soo IN
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/InBeforeTheLock.gif)
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Those seeking to replay WW2 will not enjoy AH because AH does not aim to recreate WW2 in any fashion. It aims to simulate aerial and ground combat using WW2 planes and vehicles. -Ack-Ack
I have to make a remark about this Ack-Ack. You are right, AHII
is not a WW2 flight sim although, looking at the ads they have
produced you would find it hard to see such a distinction.
In fact, the ads strongly imply that it is a WWII aerial combat
game. Furthermore, I suspect that the increasing popularity of
FSO, Snapshots and Scenarios give mute testimony to the
general desire of players for a WWII aerial combat simulation.
With respect to problems with WWIIOL. Sure, it has them.
AHII has its share of issues that need to be resolved as
well. No game is perfect and each has to be evaluated based on
an individual player's desires and expectations.
One of the big elements that kept me playing AHII for many years
were the friendships I formed during that period. In time, I found the
prospect of leaving my friends behind more distasteful than leaving
the game. However, with the arrival of the much maligned
arena caps, that attachment became more and more strained
as I could rarely get into our squad's chosen arena without
playing that 'game' of jumping in and out of the other arena
until slots were available.
Its a funny thing but those caps segregated me from my
friends and squadmates and proved to be the impetus for
my experimenting with WWIIOL.
But as they say, no change is without consequences.
Some are intended, but many are not.
-
Those seeking to replay WW2 will not enjoy AH because AH does not aim to recreate WW2 in any fashion. It aims to simulate aerial and ground combat using WW2 planes and vehicles.
automating or needing to make manual adjustments really has nothing to do with the flight model of either game. If you don't like to use the automated features to make flying less troublesome in AH, any player can disable those functions and fly without using of the auto functions. What makes AH superior in the aerial department is its better flight model (i.e. the physics behind what makes the planes fly) than compared to WW2OL. WW2OL throws in stuff like pilot stamina, having to manually trim your plane and adjust RPMs as a selling point to tout how 'realistic and superior' their flight model is when none of those things make their flight model realistic when the physics behind it is mucked up.
ack-ack
Ack-Ack, im really trying to see where you think the physics are mucked up? What about the flight characteristics of WW2OL seem mucked up?
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AH and ww2ol have similar player limits. ww2ol tries to be smart and biases it a bit, however that often means you might not see a tank 50m in front of you. It was not uncommon to hear guys debating the existance of a tank that was invisible to one player :D (but they can see you).
IIRC AH has a limit on the number of rendered planes in your field of view, above that you just see icons (correct me if I'm wrong skuzzy).
We used to have a 32 object limit and yes, when an object could not be rendered, the ICON would still be shown and the object would be represented by a dot.
We have since gone to an arena based variable which sets the unit draw limit count. Currently we have that set at 128.
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Max players in veiw at one time is 128,but that only means you can see 128 looking one way and when you turn left you see 128 more, not merely 128 draw around you.
-
"This threads going no where real fast "
The thread is ok. It's Trigg22 that isn't winning over friends and at the same time is
more or less supporting how bad the social interaction can be with that player base.
Calling someone a flamer and homo for no reason is just juvenile.
I've known Ack-Ack for years. He's no flamer.
;)
(nod to Vulcan for putting more detail on glaring problems than I did and in a shorter
post!)
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"This threads going no where real fast "
The thread is ok. It's Trigg22 that isn't winning over friends and at the same time is
more or less supporting how bad the social interaction can be with that player base.
Calling someone a flamer and homo for no reason is just juvenile.
I've known Ack-Ack for years. He's no flamer.
;)
(nod to Vulcan for putting more detail on glaring problems than I did and in a shorter
post!)
youre vouching that hes no flamer....... but not the homo part? :x
-
Now batch, I know you are excited, but I am pretty sure Westy was just kidding around. :)
-
Course I was! Hence the -------> ;)
<winks at Skuzzy>
:)
-
I have to make a remark about this Ack-Ack. You are right, AHII
is not a WW2 flight sim although, looking at the ads they have
produced you would find it hard to see such a distinction.
In fact, the ads strongly imply that it is a WWII aerial combat
game. EDIT::
And thats just what it is,, you can dogfight with WW2 Aircraft, and further more you dont need ground vehicals to cap a base in this game.. there an added bonus and becomming more popular with the players.
Furthermore, I suspect that the increasing popularity of
FSO, Snapshots and Scenarios give mute testimony to the
general desire of players for a WWII aerial combat simulation.
my comment to this is the reason alot of us do them is to.. yes to fly a senerio or FSO but also it gives squads a chance to fly with alot of other squads they would other-wise be fighting against in the MA and get to know them as people and get and give respect, ive meet alot of great people from other squads bish and rookWith respect to problems with WWIIOL. Sure, it has them.
AHII has its share of issues that need to be resolved as
well. No game is perfect and each has to be evaluated based on
an individual player's desires and expectations. totaly agree here
One of the big elements that kept me playing AHII for many years
were the friendships I formed during that period. In time, I found the
prospect of leaving my friends behind more distasteful than leaving
the game. However, with the arrival of the much maligned
arena caps, that attachment became more and more strained
as I could rarely get into our squad's chosen arena without
playing that 'game' of jumping in and out of the other arena
until slots were available.
Its a funny thing but those caps segregated me from my
friends and squadmates and proved to be the impetus for
my experimenting with WWIIOL.
But as they say, no change is without consequences.
Some are intended, but many are not.
Caps things i really dont beleive... Our squad is BIG and never seem to have that problem
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Well I do not blame u at all for that... I did not start this post and I was simply stating the facts cause I play ww2ol everyday... So I think I have a good idea of what is gong on in the game...But ack-ack is still a flaming homo :O
And so did many of us, some of us have played ww2ol on and off since the beta days (2001 iirc). You spout the history of ww2ol, well I played WB through to about version 2.x, then switched to the AH beta and shortly after got into the WW2OL beta. Many of my friends went to WW2OL, some to work. My mentor in WB gryf worked there, as did others such as corn.
My problem is with CRS, not so much the game, or the old bugs, but the way they addressed problems. For example, the 109 and 110 wobble problems were rabidly denied for years, now I understand it is fixed. If there is a problem, CRS's habit is to deny it, at the same time belittle players who experience it, and delete and close down evidence posted to support the case. It left me with a very bitter taste in my mouth, and to be honest until certain people depart CRS I'd struggle to bring myself back to ww2ol.
-
And so did many of us, some of us have played ww2ol on and off since the beta days (2001 iirc). You spout the history of ww2ol, well I played WB through to about version 2.x, then switched to the AH beta and shortly after got into the WW2OL beta. Many of my friends went to WW2OL, some to work. My mentor in WB gryf worked there, as did others such as corn.
My problem is with CRS, not so much the game, or the old bugs, but the way they addressed problems. For example, the 109 and 110 wobble problems were rabidly denied for years, now I understand it is fixed. If there is a problem, CRS's habit is to deny it, at the same time belittle players who experience it, and delete and close down evidence posted to support the case. It left me with a very bitter taste in my mouth, and to be honest until certain people depart CRS I'd struggle to bring myself back to ww2ol.
I partically agree here, there were alot of problems that CRS would not adress awhile back...but they have gotten better with adressing the issues.
-
I have to make a remark about this Ack-Ack. You are right, AHII
is not a WW2 flight sim although, looking at the ads they have
produced you would find it hard to see such a distinction.
In fact, the ads strongly imply that it is a WWII aerial combat
game. Furthermore, I suspect that the increasing popularity of
FSO, Snapshots and Scenarios give mute testimony to the
general desire of players for a WWII aerial combat simulation.
With respect to problems with WWIIOL. Sure, it has them.
AHII has its share of issues that need to be resolved as
well. No game is perfect and each has to be evaluated based on
an individual player's desires and expectations.
One of the big elements that kept me playing AHII for many years
were the friendships I formed during that period. In time, I found the
prospect of leaving my friends behind more distasteful than leaving
the game. However, with the arrival of the much maligned
arena caps, that attachment became more and more strained
as I could rarely get into our squad's chosen arena without
playing that 'game' of jumping in and out of the other arena
until slots were available.
Its a funny thing but those caps segregated me from my
friends and squadmates and proved to be the impetus for
my experimenting with WWIIOL.
But as they say, no change is without consequences.
Some are intended, but many are not.
You could argue the same points about WW2OL. In no way does it reflect the real style of combat or command that went on in WW2 (if it did for example the french wouldn't have radio's in tanks, aircraft wouldn't go off in one off missions etc). It merely replicates a bunch of weaponry and vehicles for players to use. (I don't think this is a bad thing btw)
As you've pointed out events such as FSO do bring us closer though - to the point I'd say that FSO gives a better 'ww2 experience'. And imho the MA is just practise for the events.
-
New Ragdoll video and it seems China had its first stress test. They said about 1k were on just shooting each other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3SggazrzAw&feature=player_embedded#t=60
-
You could argue the same points about WW2OL. In no way does it reflect the real style of combat or command that went on in WW2 (if it did for example the french wouldn't have radio's in tanks, aircraft wouldn't go off in one off missions etc). It merely replicates a bunch of weaponry and vehicles for players to use. (I don't think this is a bad thing btw)
As you've pointed out events such as FSO do bring us closer though - to the point I'd say that FSO gives a better 'ww2 experience'. And imho the MA is just practise for the events.
True, but there is one major difference, WW2OL is a FSO 24/7. The map and the way you have to play the game is setup to gear towards having a front and wanting to win.
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True, but there is one major difference, WW2OL is a FSO 24/7. The map and the way you have to play the game is setup to gear towards having a front and wanting to win.
No it is not, that is utter rubbish. I think you need to play in an FSO to understand.
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Yeah i have attended many FSO. In WW2OL (at least with my squad) we always did huge group attacks and defenses. never a random go where you want to fight, like with the MA (which is the main focus of AH)
you will never see a 109 v 109 fight in WW2OL ... and I hate to wait for a 2 hour event only 1 day a week in order to get a WW2 Experience
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I didnt know that there was any other game out there besides AHII :devil
I have played some of the senerios and they do have more of the WWII immersion type play.
I just want to play the best Aerial combat sim out there, and I think it has it as far as dog fighting.
I don't care if it is same plane vs same plane or not. Its the pilot i like to fight.
:)
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"For example, the 109 and 110 wobble problems were rabidly denied for years, now I understand it is fixed."
Well it feels more like some bandage was put over the problem by reducing the output speed and magnitude, pretty much the same fix built in that was available earlier as a control mod to reduce the max deflection.
-C+
-
you will never see a 109 v 109 fight in WW2OL ... and I hate to wait for a 2 hour event only 1 day a week in order to get a WW2 Experience
Of course not, you could never model anything outside of that map like Finland for example.
I was in one of the biggest Axis squads in WW2OL, and I'm sorry you don't get the same stuff as FSO in WW2OL. Maybe you think spawning masses of troops from a beddy of laffly is a WW2 experience, but it ain't for me ;)