Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: RaptorL on September 18, 2009, 10:01:38 AM
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I think its time we added a little flavor to the Navy ship list of the game. http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm) http://www.geocities.com/jwarship/Welcome.html (http://www.geocities.com/jwarship/Welcome.html) These Link will give the details of the ships specifications for Carieer's Cruisers, and Destroyers. Adding in these new ships to the game will change fso experience in the Pacific Theater and will add more realism to the game. the links i posted have an entire variety of ship models to choose from to be the standard ships for the Japanese fleet. I also thought we can put them into normal game arena's. Each port will spawn a random CV group every time the CV has been destroyed and respawned at its port. This will give an interesting mix in game play. Comment on my post and tell me what you think.
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Be prepared for an onslaught of grammar nazis. Also, someone will inevitably comment on your low number of posts, because clearly time on forums = time in game. :rolleyes:
Anyway regarding the idea itself, I'm just wondering in what way would this change the game? As it stands now you can launch both US and IN planes from CV groups. LVTs and PT boats are all American, I believe. (Don't quote me on that though) While I agree FSO potential may be there, I don't see how this would improve or change anything in the MAs, which is where most of the player game time is spent. I do not think it is a bad idea, I'm just not sure if it would be worth the time needed to implement the change.
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You may be right but i figured having different Carrier groups fighting against each other would spice things up. one group would have more fire power than the other or better armor than the other, but it doesn't mean their aiming would be better than the other cv group. That depends on how good the gunners are. Anyway this would make some cv battles lop sided in close battles having the ships fight from a far distance maybe with only cv fighter, and bombers. Also Ive been playing the game for about 2 years and i haven't really had an idea i be committed to to post on the forum.
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"Our" navy is just fine.
No need to model 2nd class ships in it.
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dont listen to druski he only has 525 posts. :devil
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"Our" navy is just fine.
No need to model 2nd class ships in it.
LLogann if I'm not mistaken, this game is supost be as realistic as possible, and have historical accuracy. Having other planes tanks, and ships substitute for what was actually used in that time period isn't what i call fine.
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dont listen to druski he only has 525 posts. :devil
:rofl
Well played sir
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LLogann if I'm not mistaken, this game is supost be as realistic as possible, and have historical accuracy. Having other planes tanks, and ships substitute for what was actually used in that time period isn't what i call fine.
I actually like where your going with this, in the sense of having different kinds of fleets for EW, MW, and LW. If I'm understanding you right we would see ships that saw action in '39 - 41' in EW. Ships that saw action in 41' - 43' in MW, and so on and forth.
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I actually like where your going with this, in the sense of having different kinds of fleets for EW, MW, and LW. If I'm understanding you right we would see ships that saw action in '39 - 41' in EW. Ships that saw action in 41' - 43' in MW, and so on and forth.
Exactly AirFlyer. That is also my idea. In each EW, MW, and LW we would have each port of every country spawn a random Carrier group for those countries. And in FSO we would have a better accuracy in the historical aspect of the game play.
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I'm not exactly sure about having various countries task-groups in a single MA, just due to what might occur with balance issues. Although it would be neat, you need to keep fair game-play in mind too, although I'm sure in special events this would be great. What I really mean is having task groups that were significant during the time of war that the arena represents.
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But as with other bases ingame, there are no country markings, either AH or RL countries. That is really the thing. I suppose it could be said the cv is rather American looking though...................... :uhoh
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I believe our current CV is modeled after the Enterprise, don't quote me on it though.
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you can have all the navies you want, but one of us dweebs will just sink it with one b26, run :rock :rock :rock.
semp
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I think its time we added a little flavor to the Navy ship list of the game. http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm) http://www.geocities.com/jwarship/Welcome.html (http://www.geocities.com/jwarship/Welcome.html) These Link will give the details of the ships specifications for Carieer's Cruisers, and Destroyers. Adding in these new ships to the game will change fso experience in the Pacific Theater and will add more realism to the game. the links i posted have an entire variety of ship models to choose from to be the standard ships for the Japanese fleet. I also thought we can put them into normal game arena's. Each port will spawn a random CV group every time the CV has been destroyed and respawned at its port. This will give an interesting mix in game play. Comment on my post and tell me what you think.
:aok
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Its an Essex class CV in game... Would enjoy some new scenery in my bombsite tho!!!!
Just for that reason alone, I give a :aok !!!
RC
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/SBDPowderRiverx800.jpg)
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I am all for new toys! Tora! Tora! Tora!
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Glad To Have Supporters
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I believe our current CV is modeled after the Enterprise, don't quote me on it though.
Which one?
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I suppose I wouldn't mind it if the Rook or Knit fleet's had the marking...................... ....... :lol
Its an Essex class CV in game... Would enjoy some new scenery in my bombsite tho!!!!
Just for that reason alone, I give a :aok !!!
RC
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/SBDPowderRiverx800.jpg)
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dont listen to druski he only has 525 posts. :devil
Don't listen to the P-38 drivers. (whispered loudly) They like to think they are the CEO's of HTC and decide who is worthy of posting. (normal voice) They are good pilots and think they are better than everyone else and use bully tactics because they could beat about half of us in a fight.
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Here are some info on the different Japanese Aircraft Carrie, Battleship, Heavy n Light Cruiser, and Destroyer classes completed from 1920's - 1940's http://www.combinedfleet.com/cv.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/cv.htm) http://www.combinedfleet.com/bb.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/bb.htm) http://www.combinedfleet.com/ca.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/ca.htm) http://www.combinedfleet.com/cl.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/cl.htm) http://www.combinedfleet.com/dd.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/dd.htm)
(http://historius.narod.ru/foto/carriers/kaga-cheme-2.gif) (http://historius.narod.ru/foto/carriers/akagi_3.jpg)
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"Our" navy is just fine.
No need to model 2nd class ships in it.
Japanese ships were 2nd class?
ack-ack
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I think it depends on your point of view, and besides its not about if its a 2nd class ship, again its about the historical accuracy, and realism of the game.
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Don't listen to the P-38 drivers. (whispered loudly) They like to think they are the CEO's of HTC and decide who is worthy of posting. (normal voice) They are good pilots and think they are better than everyone else and use bully tactics because they could beat about half of us in a fight.
Jealousy is an ugly thing.
ack-ack
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I think it depends on your point of view, and besides its not about if its a 2nd class ship, again its about the historical accuracy, and realism of the game.
Just wondered why he said that because Japan, at the time, had one of the more modern fleets in the world.
ack-ack
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Would've made the Coral Sea scenario much more interesting.
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A lot of people have the idea that Japanese CVs were more vulnerable because of what happened at Midway, when the fact is they were about as tough as ours, we just hit them at the perfect time. There was no damage control in WWII that would have saved the Japanese carriers at Midway given how they got hit.
There was another Japanese carrier that we claimed destroyed twice before we actually got her.
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Pre-Pearl, sure they did. But by mid 1943, they were revamping WWI era ships to be converted as carriers. And then after midway........ Forget about it.
Just wondered why he said that because Japan, at the time, had one of the more modern fleets in the world.
ack-ack
The IJN decided that this would take too long, and instead opted for a half-measure in which the aft two turrets of Hyuga and Ise would be removed and replaced with a flight deck, hangar, and catapults. While Hyuga and Ise could not equal a fleet or even a light carrier, and were not expected to carry the most modern aircraft, it was hoped that they would ease the load of the surviving carriers, especially in regards to recon aircraft.
This type of action took place often as the Japanese ran out of raw materials. In 1939, they were as modern as modern got. It was all downhill after.
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Great pics Raptor!!! I'm a naval warfare fan from long way back...
Japanese fleet was superior to the US Pacific fleet at the beginning of the war, Just like the Royal navy was superior to the US Atlantic fleet.. But with both US fleets combined, it was easily superior to either!!!
That was the two ocean navy envisaged at first by TR, and many others later.. Gave the US worldwide power!
The Washington Naval treaties arranged things this way.. But the Japanese cheated, and overbuilt many ships!
IJN was definately first rate, LOL!!! He must be joking!!! Or uninformed...
RC
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At least he reads other people's posts before opening his big mouth.......
IJN was definately first rate, LOL!!! He must be joking!!! Or uninformed...
RC
This type of action took place often as the Japanese ran out of raw materials. In 1939, they were as modern as modern got. It was all downhill after.
:D All truth aside RipChord929 & Ack-Ack.......... I look down on everything from the 1940's that is Japanese.
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Thank you for your support RipChord929, and thank you for the compliment.
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LLogann,
The Japanese did launch some modern carriers during WWII, not refurbished ships. Yes, their industry was in no way up to the task of taking on the US, but to pretend that nothing modern was added to their inventory after 1939 is wrong.
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<S> sir
..... But you obviously didn't read all that I said either. No offense, just saying. Mid-1942. However, let's digest the other comment........ Shall we? Pre-1939, they had a much smaller area of ocean to worry about. In essence, attacking the USA caused the dispersion of naval vessels so far, that they were no longer a naval power in the same manner they were before signing the treaty with Germany. There is no other way to look at it. The island nation basically relied on the people they attacked to supply them with the materials needed to build. After Dec. 7th, they were getting their heavy metals from Asia, which was..... Structurally inferior due to mix contamination.
LLogann,
The Japanese did launch some modern carriers during WWII, not refurbished ships. Yes, their industry was in no way up to the task of taking on the US, but to pretend that nothing modern was added to their inventory after 1939 is wrong.
You can also go back to Imperial databases to see that Japanese engineers warned of design flaws using Asian metals. So, although it can be argued, it is safe to say, IMO, that NO MODERN ships were built after 1939. Well, modern really is the wrong word. What word would you use to describe the Titanic? Insert that word here.
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LLogan, I'll say whatever I want, whenever I want!!! If Skuzzy conks me with the Banstick, thats his choice!!!
But if you don't like what I say,? hah!!! Truthfully, I really don't give a flyin fat rat poop, wether you do or not.... If my comments were subject to your approval, I wouldn't bother reading this BB at all... ....<out>....
And you are welcome Raptor...
RC
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Sounds like somebody needs to count to 10. Maybe meet a girl...... Or a boy.... I won't judge. Not that I'm saying your a little pissy right now. But you kind of come across that way pumpkin.
LLogan, I'll say whatever I want, whenever I want!!! If Skuzzy conks me with the Banstick, thats his choice!!!
But if you don't like what I say,? hah!!! Truthfully, I really don't give a flyin fat rat poop, wether you do or not.... If my comments were subject to your approval, I wouldn't bother reading this BB at all... ....<out>....
And you are welcome Raptor...
RC
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LLogan, I'll say whatever I want, whenever I want!!! If Skuzzy conks me with the Banstick, thats his choice!!!
But if you don't like what I say,? hah!!! Truthfully, I really don't give a flyin fat rat poop, wether you do or not.... If my comments were subject to your approval, I wouldn't bother reading this BB at all... ....<out>....
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff255/OOZ662/wut.jpg)
Wow.
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Easy boys, and lets focus on the topic. lol
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You can also go back to Imperial databases to see that Japanese engineers warned of design flaws using Asian metals. So, although it can be argued, it is safe to say, IMO, that NO MODERN ships were built after 1939. Well, modern really is the wrong word. What word would you use to describe the Titanic? Insert that word here.
Yamato Class Battleships:
Yamato: 1941
Musashi: 1942
These two ships were comparable in power to the US Iowa class battleships. Both the Yamato and her sister ship, Musashi were the largest and heaviest battleships ever built.
IJN Musashi
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Musashi1944.png/800px-Musashi1944.png)
IJN Yamato
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Yamato1945.png/800px-Yamato1945.png)
You also seem to forget that the US Navy was also operating a very large number of warships that were 25 years or so older by the time the war started. We operated a large amount of ships that had last seen action in World War I and most of the cruisers and heavy cruisers were close to 20 years old. It was only when the Iowa class of battleships come out did the US Navy had a 'modern' battleship.
ack-ack
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You just mentioned 2 ships.... At the bottom of the ocean. Now let us make a statement. "Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
Yamato Class Battleships:
Yamato: 1941
Musashi: 1942
ack-ack
"Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
"Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
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The fact that the crew and OICs were pansies says nothing of the ship.
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Post Midway, the biggest problem faced by the IJN wasn't replacing their lost carriers, being as they still outnumbered us carrier wise... It was the loss the airgroup personnel from their two best trained, and most experienced carrier divisions... That hurt them the most... They had all their eggs in one basket, and they lost it all in one fell swoop... The ones that were left, were frittered away in the Solomons.. (instead of using their experience to train the next crop of aircrew, as the USN did) They replaced the carriers in time for the Mariana Ops, but the aircrews were green as hell, and they lost that whole group too, LOL!!! After that, there was really nothing left... Except their surface fleet, which was very potent, but poorly commanded...
RC
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You just mentioned 2 ships.... At the bottom of the ocean. Now let us make a statement. "Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
"Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
"Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
Yes. The materials used to build these ships weren't a factor in their sinking by the US Navy.
ack-ack
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The IJN Taiho was the first Japanese Carrier built with an armored deck.
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/images/taiho.gif)
She was laid down in the Kawasaki yards 10-7-1941 and completed in 1944
Also I disagree with Ack-Ack about modern US BBs before the Iowa class, BB-58
USS North Carolina was a modern BB and served before the Iowas did.
(http://www.battleshipnc.com/history/bb55/napics/images/image058.jpg)
June 1st, 1942
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You just mentioned 2 ships.... At the bottom of the ocean. Now let us make a statement. "Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
"Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
"Would these 2 beasts have been sunk if they were made from American metal?"
Yes, absolutely. Look how much Musashi took before she went down. Even Yamato, sunk after learning the lessons from the sinking of Musashi, took much more to sink than the modern HMS Prince of Wales took.
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Jealousy is an ugly thing.
ack-ack
Jelousy? I was saying they can beat the newbs. Or do you not count them as players untill they've passed the initation ritual :noid?
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Interesting hypothetical concerning Midway:
What if, LOL, (after the loss of the 4 carriers), Yamamoto had decided to come straight on with the Main body of the Combined Fleet? He still had 4 light carriers with him, full airgroups.. And gunpower beyond belief!!!
The invasion force and bombardment group, was well within striking distance as well!!!
While the USN was spent!!! And the B17's (all that was left) from Midway had made 7 drops on the Jp fleet during the battle, and didn't hit doodlysquat!
What would Nimitz have ordered? Round two?
RC
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What else, wouldn't you? I mean did we have no light carriers with us? And even if we didn't, we still had 2 or 3 correct? I doubt that the USN was so beat up as to have been unable to sink a couple of the carriers and some troop ships.
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I for one would like to see some additional ships, though of different types rather than different nationalities. I would like to see: battleship (Bismark, Yamoto, King George, Iowa...take your pick), destroyer (what we have now is a destroyer escort), LST (would act like the hanger on an airfield as a minumum, i.e. kill it and you have no LVT's or PT's), Liberty Ship equivalent (different flavors, such as tanker, troop carrier, ammo; all playing the part the bunkers play on land). Another possibility for the LST would be to allow players to actually beach it, lower the ramp, and have it act as a spawn point for non-amphib GVs).
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Don't listen to the P-38 drivers. (whispered loudly) They like to think they are the CEO's of HTC and decide who is worthy of posting. (normal voice) They are good pilots and think they are better than everyone else and use bully tactics because they could beat about half of us in a fight.
P38 drivers good? I laugh out loud.
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Jelousy? I was saying they can beat the newbs. Or do you not count them as players untill they've passed the initation ritual :noid?
Oh, we can beat just more than noobs, any of us will be more than happy to show you first hand :D
P38 drivers good? I laugh out loud.
Offer is extended to you as well, but I imagine you won't accept it since you just hate to be proven wrong :t
ack-ack
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Hears a 3D model I found on the Internet that someone designed of the Akagi Aircraft Carrier. http://www.the3dstudio.com/product_details.aspx?id_product=115254 (http://www.the3dstudio.com/product_details.aspx?id_product=115254)
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Oh, we can beat just more than noobs, any of us will be more than happy to show you first hand :D
Offer is extended to you as well, but I imagine you won't accept it since you just hate to be proven wrong :t
ack-ack
Clone...it appears as if we have just been chalanged. I can't fight since my account got locked (credit card it was on got cancled) and I have to wait till Chrismas to get a new one, so you will have to defend our honor. I belive I shot down a couple of SAPP pilots, so it shouldn't be too tough unless Ack Ack is the best of the best. See ya's in the new year!!!!!
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It's a good idea, I like it, but there are other things that need to come first. For instance, there are still a handful of planes that need to be remodeled first. (The C-47, lancaster, mossi, SBD, tbm, and C2s to name a few)
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Interesting hypothetical concerning Midway:
What if, LOL, (after the loss of the 4 carriers), Yamamoto had decided to come straight on with the Main body of the Combined Fleet? He still had 4 light carriers with him, full airgroups.. And gunpower beyond belief!!!
The invasion force and bombardment group, was well within striking distance as well!!!
While the USN was spent!!! And the B17's (all that was left) from Midway had made 7 drops on the Jp fleet during the battle, and didn't hit doodlysquat!
What would Nimitz have ordered? Round two?
RC
Definitely an interesting hypothetical. In Newt Gingrich's book, "Day of Imfamy", he explores what would have happened if Yamamoto had personally commanded the Pearl Harbor attack. He posits that, unlike Nagumo -- who was chastised for not following through with a third wave at Pearl Harbor -- Yamamoto would have stuck around and delivered a killing blow (take out the dry docks, tank farms, sub tending facilities, etc). However, when push came to shove, Yamamoto arguably backed down at Midway, even though on paper he still had the advantage even after loosing the four fleet carriers. The thing is, from Yamamoto's point of view, clouded as it was by the fog of war and devastating moral damage done to the IJN at Midway, his decision to withdraw was the logical choice at the time. Remember that Midway Atoll itself was not that significant a strategic objective. It was more important to the US defensive strategy than it was to the IJN's offensive plans. Yamamoto was some 300 to 500 miles away with the main body, with little hard intel of what the IJN carriers had run into. All he really new is that a) Midway's airfield was still intact and defended; b) he'd just lost 70% of his air power (the light carriers were meant to provide aircover for the main body, and not provisioned for extended offensive ops); c) his strike fleet had damaged and MAYBE sunk one or two USN carriers (they actually hit Yorktown twice, but didn't know it was the same ship). He really had no idea what he faced at that point. Add to that the fact that the remains of the withdrawing strike fleet was still be harrassed by carrier based air (Tone was hit and sunk while attempting to withdraw), and the consumate gambler Yamamoto decided to fold rather than go all-in.
The US on the other hand had lost most of their torpedo planes, but didn't loose all that many SBDs or Wildcats. Enterprise and Hornet were unscathed, and the USN personnel were feeling invincible. They were far from spent.
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Sabre have you ever considered running for office, since you already are a master of the number one rule in politics. "If you dont understand something, make sure nobody else does." :rofl :rofl
semp
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Sabre have you ever considered running for office, since you already are a master of the number one rule in politics. "If you dont understand something, make sure nobody else does." :rofl :rofl
semp
What Sabre wrote was easy to understand.
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Tone was not sunk at Midway. Mikuma was sunk after a collision between her and Mogami.
Tone was lost at Kure in July 1945.
And Yamamoto was highly over rated and not the true author of the Midway attacks. It is like giving credit to the head of the company for the design of a successful widget.
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What Sabre wrote was easy to understand.
agreed, it was actually pretty easy.
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The US on the other hand had lost most of their torpedo planes, but didn't loose all that many SBDs or Wildcats. Enterprise and Hornet were unscathed, and the USN personnel were feeling invincible. They were far from spent.
But Spruance was reluctant to pursue the retreating Japanese fleet because of the very real risk of running into the Japanese surface fleet, which included the battleship Yamato, at night and have his cruiser escorts overwhelmed while not being able to launch airstrikes.
ack-ack
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Sabre have you ever considered running for office, since you already are a master of the number one rule in politics. "If you dont understand something, make sure nobody else does." :rofl :rofl
semp
What Sabre wrote was easy to understand.
Facts are something that confuses semp, just look at the other threads he's posted in where he's been faced by overwhelming facts that prove him to be incorrect.
ack-ack
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But Spruance was reluctant to pursue the retreating Japanese fleet because of the very real risk of running into the Japanese surface fleet, which included the battleship Yamato, at night and have his cruiser escorts overwhelmed while not being able to launch airstrikes.
ack-ack
Did the American fleet even HAVE cruiser escorts?
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IDK for sure, but probably. Carriers were usually escorted by cruisers and destroyers, to detect lurking submarines, and to provide some real defense against surface ships.
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Did the American fleet even HAVE cruiser escorts?
Yes. To be a little more clear, cruisers routinely escorted carrier fleets during WW2 and still do act as escorts for carrier tasks forces as far as I know.
ack-ack
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did they :noid?
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Good post sabre, I understood it completely...
I enjoy "what if's", because they usually promote very interesting convo...
Kondo's bombardment force, Heavy Cruisers Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya, Kumano, 5 DD's, were ordered early on the 4th to close and bombard Midway.. After the loss of the 4 carriers, they were ordered to retire NW and link up with main body. Early on the 5th, lookouts spotted the US sub Tambor running on the surface, ordered an evasive turn, thats when Mogami collided with Mikuma.. Mikuma took light damage midships, but Mogami lost her bow. This reduced her speed to 12 knots.. Kondo detached the damaged Mogami, Mikuma, and 2 DD's, then proceded at full speed for the rendezvous with the rest of his force.. The stragglers were detected by air, and attacked by the remaining SBDs from Hornet, and Marine SB2U's, all launched from Midway.. Mikuma was sunk, Mogami escaped...
The leftovers of Nagumo's carrier strike force, fast BB's Kirishima, Haruna, Heavy Cruisers Tone, Chikuma, and 11 DD's, were also ordered to retire NW and link up with the main body... Took light attacks early on the 5th by the leftover aircraft from the US Navy Carriers, and B17's from Midway.. Resulting in light damage from a near miss to Haruna...
The US forces were taking stock, and reorganizing late on the 4th... The Hornets SBD's had missed the "5 minutes of glory" on the 4th.. They never found the Jp Fleet at all, but had lost a third of their number from running out of gas while searching, before landing at Midway.. On the morning of the 5th, reports were recieved from Tambor, and air search, that gave position of Kondo's stragglers.. The planes on Midway, took off to get their licks in.. They did, sank the Mikuma, damaged the Mogami further, but she escaped..
I submit for thought, that if these 2 IJN surface forces had proceeded to Midway, (they were within easy range), on the night of the 4th, and shelled the runway, aircraft revetments etc, before dawn... The Hornets AC, (and all the others sitting at Midway), would have been wiped out, or been left unable to participate in further actions on the 5th.. This would have left the mixed, and severely depleted, Airgroups from Enterprise and Hornet, (including survivors from Yorktown) as the only airpower available.. Also by this time, Yamamoto's main force would have had time to close the range into the battle area.. Bringing his fresh airgroups into action.. Changes the picture entirely!!!
I believe that Spruance would have been forced to retire, to preserve the only naval forces between Midway and the West Coast of the USA.. This would have resulted in the loss of Midway, and the Japanese bringing Pearl Harbor under daily air attack by land based bombers, making the port untenable.. MAJOR bad news!!
Remember, I do this stuff from memory mostly.. Don't have the books in front of me, so bear with me..
Great posts all :salute
RC
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Facts are something that confuses semp, just look at the other threads he's posted in where he's been faced by overwhelming facts that prove him to be incorrect.
ack-ack
sometimes ago, this conversation took place in England not in the same words, but something similar.
-why are we losing so many lancasters? aren't they doing the corkscrew maneuver?
-they are sir.
-then, what's the problem?
-weird thing the fiters dont give up anymore after the first corkscrew maneuver.
-what? the rascals, so what now? give orders so that everytime a lancaster gets a fiter within sight, they must do a corkscrew maneuver till they crash if they have to, otherwise we will have to switch to bombing at night.
If the lancs had done that maneuver everytime they got attacked, it would disrupt they formation so bad as to be even easier targets. and that's the last I write about this.
semp
semp
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sometimes ago, this conversation took place in England not in the same words, but something similar.
-why are we losing so many lancasters? aren't they doing the corkscrew maneuver?
-they are sir.
-then, what's the problem?
-weird thing the fiters dont give up anymore after the first corkscrew maneuver.
-what? the rascals, so what now? give orders so that everytime a lancaster gets a fiter within sight, they must do a corkscrew maneuver till they crash if they have to, otherwise we will have to switch to bombing at night.
If the lancs had done that maneuver everytime they got attacked, it would disrupt they formation so bad as to be even easier targets. and that's the last I write about this.
semp
semp
Is the second signature to emphasize that your first signature is now over?
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sometimes ago, this conversation took place in England not in the same words, but something similar.
-why are we losing so many lancasters? aren't they doing the corkscrew maneuver?
-they are sir.
-then, what's the problem?
-weird thing the fiters dont give up anymore after the first corkscrew maneuver.
-what? the rascals, so what now? give orders so that everytime a lancaster gets a fiter within sight, they must do a corkscrew maneuver till they crash if they have to, otherwise we will have to switch to bombing at night.
If the lancs had done that maneuver everytime they got attacked, it would disrupt they formation so bad as to be even easier targets. and that's the last I write about this.
semp
semp
The Corkscrew evasive maneuver was a common evasive performed by Lancaster crews. You claim it never happened but again, I'm going to show that you're incorrect.
In Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944-1945 (http://books.google.com/books?id=uKmeiZmEXJoC&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq=corkscrew+evasive&source=bl&ots=aMcJVDlYju&sig=j6WtZ-5MeVWE4XAOQnnRgT0AQCo&hl=en&ei=FKe6Sqz3NJKUkAXxjvTsBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=corkscrew%20evasive&f=false) on page 314 tells of a Lancaster using the maneuver to escape a night fighter attack.
In this book, Nickels and nightingales (http://books.google.com/books?id=LQj8Nb_cYbAC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=corkscrew+evasive&source=bl&ots=JW2L2qKYJI&sig=z7RIlwUYNn9D5874gjREv2pCI0c&hl=en&ei=FKe6Sqz3NJKUkAXxjvTsBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=corkscrew%20evasive&f=false) a crewman tells how using the corkscrew maneuver allowed them to avoid being shot down and lose their attacker.
These are a couple of excerpts from BBC's WW2 People's War (http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/43/a4365443.shtml) about a Lancaster's night mission over Germany in 1944.
On the night of 21 June 1944 RAF Bomber Command sent 133 Lancasters and 6 Mosquitoes to attack the synthetic oil plant at Wesseling, in Germany. I was the captain of one of the Lancaster crews detailed to take part in the raid. That morning I had been briefed about a new enemy combat tactic, where the German night fighters operated in pairs, one committing the bomber to an evasive move with the other seizing an attacking opportunity when the bomber was at its most vulnerable point, the top or bottom of the corkscrew. Discussing tactics with my crew, I said:
“Apparently they find a victim then one of them will attack from the rear along a standard fighter curve and of course if the bomber doesn't see him or have time to take action he is in trouble.” Both my gunners were lost for words at such a suggestion. “On the other hand,” I continued, 'He is picked up and the corkscrew port or starboard is committed - now his number 2 is holding off waiting for a good opportunity to come in, which we will try not to give him by adding a bit of rough flying at the roll-over points. Let's get airborne and try it out.”
The course change was made and now the black sky was to port and ahead leaving the bright sky astern on the starboard side. As I lined up the needle on the aircraft compass, the clear unhurried voice of the wireless operator broke the silence.
“Bandits skipper, one above rear on the port side, and the other one same on the starboard - range about 1,000 yards.”
“Right - see them rear gunner?”
“Not yet skipper.”
“Mid-upper?”
“No.”
“The one of the starboard is coming in,” said the wireless operator, reading the range on his Monica screen.
“Eight hundred… seven… six.”
“Got him skipper, corkscrew starboard,” a pause by the rear gunner.
“Go, go.”
“Up the revs engineer, twenty-seven fifty.”
“A hundred on Skip,” said 'Wag’.
And the engines’ synchronised drone changed to a drumming note of emergency as the practised drill commenced, down and turning, making it difficult for the fighter to turn inside the curve and bring his guns to bear on target.
“He's broken away, the port one is coming in Skip, seven hundred… six… five,” said the wireless operator, sedulously occupied with his screen, now a key member of the little battle group.
“Trying to catch us at the bottom when we roll”, I thought.
As I turned the aircraft from a starboard downwards curve through to the port upwards curve I pushed the control column forward violently causing the nose of the aircraft to drop momentarily, then up into the lumbering climb to port, thus creating an air turbulence that together with the six .303 Browning guns that were now filling the plane with acrid fumes, would encourage the enemy to keep at safe distance.
“Port bandit broken away Skipper”, came the voice of the wireless operator.
“They're both FW 190s,” broke in the Scottish brogue of the mid upper, as I hauled the heavy machine back onto course.
“They are still there - one port and one starboard - high and rear about 1,000 yards.” Despite the violent flying the wireless operator was keeping a good watch of his screen.
“Port one coming in 500 yards.”
“Got it,” picked up the rear gunner.
“Corkscrew port - Go! Go!”
The above is from the other thread where you claimed it was never used. As you can see, I have shown you examples where is was commonly used as a defensive tactic when under attack by night fighters. So common was this tactic by Lancaster crews that they even practiced it. Now, are you going to insist it never happened or must I provide more examples showing it did and was common and again show that you're completely and utterly wrong?
ack-ack
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of course you have a book that explains this too. its a b26 but u get the idea. I can tell you that the corckscrew maneuver was not effective as you think it is or was used as widely as you think in formation. or that lancs would dive bomb even on a shallow dive as a rule. when you quote whoever was flying that plane, was he flying in formation? were the other planes also doing the corkscrew maneuver? did that disrupt the formation and made them separate from each other and therefore an easy target for fiters. I still stand by my original statement if you want to quote that too. as a rule if a fiter crashed with a bomber, they both were destroyed. but there's some buffs that actually landed with a fiter sticking out of their belly. this is what I was refering to. there is always exceptions.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr285/semperac/bombingupsidedown.jpg)
semp
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of course you have a book that explains this too. its a b26 but u get the idea. I can tell you that the corckscrew maneuver was not effective as you think it is or was used as widely as you think in formation. or that lancs would dive bomb even on a shallow dive as a rule. when you quote whoever was flying that plane, was he flying in formation? were the other planes also doing the corkscrew maneuver? did that disrupt the formation and made them separate from each other and therefore an easy target for fiters. I still stand by my original statement if you want to quote that too. as a rule if a fiter crashed with a bomber, they both were destroyed. but there's some buffs that actually landed with a fiter sticking out of their belly. this is what I was refering to. there is always exceptions.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr285/semperac/bombingupsidedown.jpg)
semp
Since I don't want to hijack this thread further, I created a thread in the Aircraft forums in which I provided more proof that it was considered the most effective evasive tactic for RAF Bomber Command to evade night fighter attack.
Lancaster Defensive tactics (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,274664.0.html)
ack-ack
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Focus on the topic. New Country Navy's. You want them or not?
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Focus on the topic. New Country Navy's. You want them or not?
Yep, I do. Nice counter-post, RipChord. I remembered that Tone was in the Midway OP, and just had it in my head that Tone was the one sunk after the collision (memory's not what it used to be, I guess). Spruence was a cautious commander, no doubt, though I believe it likely he'd have stayed on-station if he thought the Japanese were not withdrawing. As with many (most?) real battles, what you don't know guides your actions as a commander as much if not more so than what you do know. I disagree with your assessment of the impact of the Japanese capturing Midway. Yes, Pearl would be in reach of Betty's and Zero's (barely), but I think the air battle for Pearl would have been analagous to that fought for Gaudalcanal. In that battle, the Cactus Air Force managed to easily hold the IJN at bay with a relative handful of inferior planes. Add to that the fact that Midway itself is not capable of holding sufficient aircraft to seriously challenge the "unsinkable" supercarrier that is Hawaii (even if you dangerously over-crowded Midway with aircraft...and making it extremely vulnerable to even modest shelling and B-17 attacks), and it's plain to see that the loss of Midway -- while damaging -- would at best be a temporary setback to the US effort. Nonetheless, good post, sir.
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Nice counter analysis but the loss of Midway could have had a much wider impact on the whole American war effort. Remember that after the bombing of Pearl the public wanted to go to war against Japan not Germany. It was Germany's declaration of war that brought us into conflict with them simply put.
Basically this sentiment was reflected behind the scenes in a debate within the military and government on who to focus on first with the Europe first proponents eventually winning that argument. If Midway had fallen and if the Japanese had done regularly bombing of Hawaii, even if doing so yielded little concrete results tactically or strategically, I think you might argue that the U.S. Government and military might have switched to a Japan first strategy instead of a Europe first strategy which would have had a dramatic impact on the whole course and nature of the global conflict.
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Regarding historical accuracy as a reason for this, do you want PT boats and LVTs spawning from a Japanese CV group? Granted it's no different from Japanese planes taking off from the CV now.
The big issue would be if there was a perception that one fleet was superior to the other. It might be impossible to have them be both accurate and balanced.
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Nice counter analysis but the loss of Midway could have had a much wider impact on the whole American war effort. Remember that after the bombing of Pearl the public wanted to go to war against Japan not Germany. It was Germany's declaration of war that brought us into conflict with them simply put.
Basically this sentiment was reflected behind the scenes in a debate within the military and government on who to focus on first with the Europe first proponents eventually winning that argument. If Midway had fallen and if the Japanese had done regularly bombing of Hawaii, even if doing so yielded little concrete results tactically or strategically, I think you might argue that the U.S. Government and military might have switched to a Japan first strategy instead of a Europe first strategy which would have had a dramatic impact on the whole course and nature of the global conflict.
Excellent post, Ghost, and I quite agree that it could easily have caused a re-alignment of national priorities. However, I think that re-alignment would have been more short-term in nature. Japan's strategic situation would not have changed much, other than to extend even further a defensive perimeter and logistics chain that was impossible for them to maintain as it was. And the cream of their naval aviation corps would still be decimated. I see it more as a ripple in the timeline, rather than an out and out rewriting of it.
Regarding FLS's post, what he sites is why I think adding more classes of ships, rather than the same classes from different nationalities is more important to growing the game.
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Sorry I was unclear. I meant as far as random spawning goes there would be a problem. If each side started with the same number of each type it wouldn't be a problem.
Maybe the Japanese fleet could have those little 2 man subs. :noid
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I'd once suggested that the Bishops have the fleet we have now, the Rooks get a British fleet and the Knights get a Japanese fleet.
That would cause some balance issues though, particularly for the Rooks as the British carriers may have been tough with armored flight decks, but they were much smaller than the Japanese and American fleet carriers so landing on them and taking off of them would be harder.
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OK. Hears my new idea for the new CV groups. For each War arena, will have CV groups from those years spawn at a Port. These Ports will spawn a random group from a selection countries, model of that year, what class of ship (ex. destroyer, cruiser, battleship etc.), and the # of ships that will be in that CV group. This will affect the intensity of flack cover, targets of opportunity, and battle tactics for attacking and defending CV groups.
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I'd once suggested that the Bishops have the fleet we have now, the Rooks get a British fleet and the Knights get a Japanese fleet.
That would cause some balance issues though, particularly for the Rooks as the British carriers may have been tough with armored flight decks, but they were much smaller than the Japanese and American fleet carriers so landing on them and taking off of them would be harder.
Why not just make it an asthetic change just give them the look but not the effects, scale up the british carrier if you like.
Plus think how cool it would be, king george vs Yamato, Missouri vs Mushashi. Would be awesome. And I fly rooks so it would be patriotic for me :D
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Why not just make it an aesthetic change just give them the look but not the effects, scale up the british carrier if you like.
Plus think how cool it would be, king george vs Yamato, Missouri vs Mushashi. Would be awesome. And I fly rooks so it would be patriotic for me :D
Its not good enough to just give it the model, it has to be as realistic and historically accurate. Besides no one likes it when you half bellybutton it.