Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Chalenge on September 22, 2009, 03:25:30 PM
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Time magazine article of Jan 24 1944: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,803055,00.html
First named the P-51 Apache, it was shipped to Britain in 1941.
Later the Mustang proved itself a magnificent low-level strafer and locomotive buster. It was fast, agile and an "honest" aircraft (i.e., with no eccentric handling traits). One P-51 set a record for ruggedness when it flew home with a yard of starboard wing shot off, the port wing half buckled and the fuselage bent and torn from collision with a tree. The U.S. noted all this and brought out its own slightly modified version of the plane as the A36 Invader, which did mighty work as a dive and glide bomber and ground-support plane in Sicily.
Note: The A36 too was factory named Apache and officially named Mustang by the Army. Only servicemen in the field referred to it as Invader so we know where this reporter got his information on the A36.
P-51-1NA
Allison engine V-1710-39 (1120 BHP at takeoff and 1220 BHP at 10500 feet)
Fuel - 100 Octane 180 gallons
Basic weight 6450 lbs max gross weight 9000 lbs
Armament - 4 20mm cannons (100 lbs ea) 125 rds per gun (5 rds and linkages = 3 lbs)
Combat range 400 miles
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/Apache.jpg)
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Apache did not have four 20mm cannons. It had six .50 cals, two under the nose and four in the wings.
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You are not paying attention Karnak and we have discussed this before. Try to keep up.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/Apache-2.jpg)
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Nice plane
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Apache did not have four 20mm cannons. It had six .50 cals, two under the nose and four in the wings.
Wrong.....even Wiki gets that one right.
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Must have now! Please?
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Wrong.....even Wiki gets that one right.
Wrong, wrong. Apache had 6-.50's. 2 in each wing and 2 beneath the nose.
And, the official USAAF name was "Invader".
Bring on the A-36.
wrongway
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And, the official USAAF name was "Invader".
As much as I want to see an A36 also you are mistaken about this. The A-26 was the USAAF Invader.
The factory plan name for all of the NA-73 and NA-91 (and descendants) was always Apache. The A-36 has come to be known as the A-36 Apache because of that and because pilots trained to fly the A-36 were introduced to the plane as the 'Apache' but at some time between training and the time it was in service at the front a few months it became known as the Mustang.
The P-51 (without sub-designation) was always the Apache (until July 1942). The same plane in British service was called the Mustang.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/A36.jpg)
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Armament
Armament varied throughout the life of the Mustang. Initial versions were fitted with 6 x 12.7mm machine guns - two in the nose and four in the wings. A battery of 4 x 20mm cannons, which made it ideal in the ground attack role, or the lighter armament load of 4 x 12.7mm machine guns (two to a wing) for tactical reconnaissance were also alternatives. Eventually, the legendary D-models would introduce the potent array of 6 x 12.7mm machine guns (three to a wing) with a simplified feed mechanism to cut down on weapon jamming. Underwing bomb racks and rocket pylons increased potency of the platform as well. These could be deleted in favor of fuel drop tanks for improved range on those long bomber escort sorties.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=77
pic of A36 with 4 x 20mm's
http://www.theospark.net/2009/01/p-51-mustang-california-1942.html
model by model of P-51 / A-36
Mustang Mk IA: Supplied to the Royal Air Force (RAF).2,4 Had cannons for armament.4 Originally called Apache by the United States Army Air Force.4
A-36A: Ground attack.2,3 Had wing bomb shackles.2,3 Had four 20 mm cannons in the wings.3
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/aircraft/fighter/north-american-p-51-mustang.asp
A second British contract called for 300 more (NA-83) Mustang Mk.I fighters. In September 1940, 150 aircraft, designated NA-91 by North American, were ordered under the Lend/Lease program. These were designated by the USAAF as P-51 and initially named Apache, although this was soon dropped and the RAF name, Mustang, adopted instead. The British designated this model as Mustang Mk.IA. The Mustang Mk IA was identical to the Mustang Mk I except that the wing-mounted machine guns were removed and replaced with four long-barrelled 20 mm (.79 in) Hispano Mk II cannon.
http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/p51.htm
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As much as I want to see an A36 also you are mistaken about this. The A-26 was the USAAF Invader.
The A-36A was briefly referred to as the A-36 during the Invasion of Sicily to differentiate itself from the Mustang in press coverage but the USAAF quickly put an end to that when someone with brains realized that doing so would clue the enemy in they were facing a dive bomber version of the Mustang in addition to the name already being given to the A-26 Invader.
There is still some argument as to whether the official name was Apache (which was the official name of the early P-51) or whether the official name was Mustang. When it was first put in operational status, it was given the official name of Apache though it was rarely used and like you mentioned, was later reported to have it's official name changed to Mustang.
ack-ack
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The ad I posted in the very first post in this topic was the original ad for the P-51 from North American Aviation (1941). I think NAA would know better in 1941 what they called their own plane more so than the re-hashed arguments of wiki-users or History channel viewers of today. If you could find original factory prints of the first NA-73X plans the title block would say 'Project: Apache.'
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Just another 4 cannon bird thread.
If you are going to do an Allison Mustang, the A36 and the RAF Mustang I, as well as the 4 MG P51 the USAAF used would make far more sense then the few 20mm birds. The majority of Allison Mustangs were not cannon armed birds.
As for Apache. From a 1941 kids book.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Apache.jpg)
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My argument is for the cannon armed P-51 Apache because it was the first 'Mustang' to serve the USAAF (and the British under the Mustang IA designation). The A-36 was not engineered until June of 1942 and did not first fly until October. Since NAA was already running ads for the P-51 as 'Apache' and since it was already in service when the A-36 was still being built...
Anyway Hitech... Whiskey or Scotch just let me know what you prefer! :aok
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Anyway Hitech... Whiskey or Scotch just let me know what you prefer! :aok
I think this is his drink of choice & going rate for a possible bribe if I remembered correctly.
http://www.finestwine.com/buy-wine-Cragganmore-12-Years-Whisky-Spirits-0-sb700-6.html
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This is the one you want
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/51A.jpg)
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Hmm, 600 Plus Mustang Is
500 A36s
310 P51A
150 Mustang IA of which 93 went RAF and the rest USAAF.
Thinking the first 3 would be a higher priority then the 4 cannon bird :)
RAF Mustang I
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Mustang1.jpg)
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The ad I posted in the very first post in this topic was the original ad for the P-51 from North American Aviation (1941). I think NAA would know better in 1941 what they called their own plane more so than the re-hashed arguments of wiki-users or History channel viewers of today. If you could find original factory prints of the first NA-73X plans the title block would say 'Project: Apache.'
Just because we disagree with you does not mean that our sources are wikipedia or the trash they show on the History Channel.
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Just because we disagree with you does not mean that our sources are wikipedia or the trash they show on the History Channel.
That doesnt change the fact that your information is wrong. NAA clearly called their own plane 'Apache' before it was ever called 'Mustang.' When the USAAF put the first P-51 into service it was called Apache. So you can say the first offical service name of the British version was Mustang but only for the British and only after delivery.
Many years ago I read an interview of Atwood and Kindelberger where they stated they chose Apache because it would give their fighter a ferocious yet noble image and they were somewhat surprised that the British chose the name of (what they considered to be) a problem wild animal with terrible traits.
Guppy: There were precisely 300 Mustang 1s built. They came looking for 300 P-40s and they took home a better fighter. I dont think you can argue against 150 as being insufficient given some of the other planes and vehicles in the game already.
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Here's a good site if you're interested in reading about the A-36 in combat, in particular the 27th Fighter Bomber Group. Charles Dill kept very good records and has collected a lot of info about the group he flew with in Italy.
(http://www.charlies-web.com/WWII_med/A36_wbombs.jpg)
http://www.charlies-web.com/WWII_med/index.html (http://www.charlies-web.com/WWII_med/index.html)
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I'd be happy with a nice allison powered Pony...cannon or not.
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That doesnt change the fact that your information is wrong. NAA clearly called their own plane 'Apache' before it was ever called 'Mustang.' When the USAAF put the first P-51 into service it was called Apache. So you can say the first offical service name of the British version was Mustang but only for the British and only after delivery.
Many years ago I read an interview of Atwood and Kindelberger where they stated they chose Apache because it would give their fighter a ferocious yet noble image and they were somewhat surprised that the British chose the name of (what they considered to be) a problem wild animal with terrible traits.
Guppy: There were precisely 300 Mustang 1s built. They came looking for 300 P-40s and they took home a better fighter. I dont think you can argue against 150 as being insufficient given some of the other planes and vehicles in the game already.
My understanding was the first order of Mustang Is was 300 with a second order of 300+ more.
I have no problem with wanting an Allison 51. My bigger issue is it seems to be another one of those find a way to get another 4 cannon bird in the game. I've never seen anything to suggest the 4 cannon Mustang was ever used for anything beyond ground support and tac recon.
The first Mustang kill was Yank in the RAF Hollis Hills in a Mustang I over a 190 prior to Dieppe. The Air Commandos in the CBI had P51As that saw a fair amount of service. The A36s in the MTO were used a lot.
My bigger issue is clouding the wish for 4 cannons behind asking for an Allison Mustang. I say the same when folks start the howl for a 4 cannon Spit. I love Spits and their history, but a 4 cannon Spit doesn't fit in the game anymore then a 4 cannon Mustang in my opinion.
If it's all about an Allison Mustang then the more numerous combat examples would be just as welcome :)
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Well I disagree and so what if it has cannons so do a lot of planes already in the game. Hollis Hills flew with RCAF 414 Sqn in the Mustang Mk I and lastly in the Mk IA (first kill was in a Mk I) and yes he was the first 'Mustang Ace' as of June 11 1943 (at that time flying the Mk IA as Tac/R groups had been refitted.
You dont seem to understand that this isnt going to be a four cannon Mustang. Its a four cannon Apache and it will be a completely different animal. It wont be as fast it wont have the same endurance and it will never claim the same throne but it may very well earn a niche as an American perk ride. Who can say without a trial in the game? To write it out offhandedly is disingenuous to honesty of history and to air combat as a whole. How many four cannon birds are simply not up to snuff in the game? Certainly the Typhoon has a place as a perk ride in MW but in LW it seldom is so potent as to be outstanding and neither would the P-51 Apache.
Certainly I dont believe this plane will be the end all of dogfighters but I do believe it will be a new mix of potential that just is not met in any other guise and it will add a great deal of fun to many and a great deal of anguish to others. You obviously will be in the anguish crowd. :D
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My bigger issue is clouding the wish for 4 cannons behind asking for an Allison Mustang. I say the same when folks start the howl for a 4 cannon Spit. I love Spits and their history, but a 4 cannon Spit doesn't fit in the game anymore then a 4 cannon Mustang in my opinion.
+1
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I'll take every pony variant they want to put in the game. Especially the cannon model! I'm sure we've all tried to take a town building, ack, or gvs out with 4 .50s and found that is pretty much a waste of time. Why not throw some 20 mils in the pony? If the plane was used in WW2 it should be in AH2 (except for the B29).
I think we can all agree that the earlier 51 variants did not perform as well as the later models, so I would think it'd be much more of a challenge to fly well. One would not simply be able to run from the fight as most do with the D and B models.
As far as priority goes, i think the earlier pony models should have been introduced before the D model.
The P51 plane set deserves a low alt attack aircraft. Sure we could use 38s or jugs for the same type of missions but if the P51 is what you fly, you want to do the job in a P51.
Lets put something in the game that will get some use. The last 2 or 3 updates have given us ....well not much in terms of aircraft.
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+1
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That doesnt change the fact that your information is wrong. NAA clearly called their own plane 'Apache' before it was ever called 'Mustang.' When the USAAF put the first P-51 into service it was called Apache. So you can say the first offical service name of the British version was Mustang but only for the British and only after delivery.
How can I be wrong about something I didn't even comment on? I made no comment at all about the name.
All I said was that the Apache didn't have four 20mm cannons as is always requested. Guppy added more detail on that count. The quad 20mm version was a rare version compared with the machine gun armed versions were far more common. To ask for the rare 20mm armed version does make it look like you are more concerned with getting the cannons than the A-36.
EDIT:
The problem with putting rare things that are imbalancing into AH is that they end up drowning out the things that did the real work and it stops feeling like a WWII game. Quad cannon Mustangs and Spits are one of the things that fit into that category. I could see the quad cannons being added as a perk option, if HTC ever gets the perk loadout system implemented. Otherwise, you would simply see the cannon armed Mustang much too frequently, just as we did with the cannon armed F4U.
Interesting photo:
http://www.shorpy.com/node/1138?size=_original
And one most of us have seen repeatedly:
http://www.shorpy.com/p-51-mustang?size=_original
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Karnak: Thats exactly where you are wrong. The P-51 with the four 20mm is the Apache and that didnt change until about the time Hills became an ace in it. The A-36 was called both Apache and Mustang (as well as Invader but neither officially or by the factory).
I hate to be the one to inform you that this game isnt about recreating WWII. This game is about air combat (and to some extent ground combat as far as it influences air combat) and adding an element of interest like the P-51 Apache can only enrich choices and whether you like to accept it or not this airplane will be a fighter and I believe more of a turn fighter than a boom and zoomer.
I would love to see this and the A-36 added. Yes the base takers would have a new aircraft as well as the tank killers and furballers too.
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Swarms of 20mm armed P-51s would not enrich it, quite the opposite.
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I think your imagination is getting away from you and quite frankly you are worrying about something you dont know for sure would even happen. I mean after all! Do you lay awake at night worrying that one day the enemy will group up in swarms of Typhoons and come hunting? Of course not so stop being ridiculous.
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I think your imagination is getting away from you and quite frankly you are worrying about something you dont know for sure would even happen. I mean after all! Do you lay awake at night worrying that one day the enemy will group up in swarms of Typhoons and come hunting? Of course not so stop being ridiculous.
Were you here when the F4U-1C was free and unchecked, before the perk system? I was.
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Karnak: Thats exactly where you are wrong. The P-51 with the four 20mm is the Apache and that didnt change until about the time Hills became an ace in it. The A-36 was called both Apache and Mustang (as well as Invader but neither officially or by the factory).
I hate to be the one to inform you that this game isnt about recreating WWII. This game is about air combat (and to some extent ground combat as far as it influences air combat) and adding an element of interest like the P-51 Apache can only enrich choices and whether you like to accept it or not this airplane will be a fighter and I believe more of a turn fighter than a boom and zoomer.
I would love to see this and the A-36 added. Yes the base takers would have a new aircraft as well as the tank killers and furballers too.
So you'd be content with the P51A or the Mustang I right? This isn't about a little used 4 cannon bit?
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The Mustang I saw service with the British only. The Apache/Mustang IA saw service with the British and Americans and like the Mk Is served until the end of the war as Tac/R for the British and F-6A for reconnaissance for the Americans. I chose the P-51 Apache/Mustang for two reasons. First it served for both the British and the Americans and second because the name Apache is often misrepresented as belonging to the A-36 alone and for historical reasons alone it should be added to AH.... but also it scares the bejeezus out of you! :D
But as you well know Hitech and crew are more than skilled enough to add both.
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As much as I want to see an A36 also you are mistaken about this. The A-26 was the USAAF Invader.
The factory plan name for all of the NA-73 and NA-91 (and descendants) was always Apache. The A-36 has come to be known as the A-36 Apache because of that and because pilots trained to fly the A-36 were introduced to the plane as the 'Apache' but at some time between training and the time it was in service at the front a few months it became known as the Mustang.
The P-51 (without sub-designation) was always the Apache (until July 1942). The same plane in British service was called the Mustang.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/A36.jpg)
I think you are wrong. The A-36 had dive brakes, the P-51 did not. The A-36
was produced to keep the North American production line active until the USAAF
P-51 orders started rolling in.
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No the history of this aircraft is as I stated it. The A-36 was designed before any type was accepted by the Americans because Atwood and Kindelberger both saw a need the USAAF had not recognized and they thought the type would best suit that need. What ended up happening (in essence) was the USAAF appropriated a portion of the British order (what they then called the P-51 Apache) for their own needs while they awaited the A-36. The A-36 was also a very handy type and it would also be wonderful to have it in AH. In fact I think it played a pivotal part in the types service acceptance as it was the first designed to carry bombs or drop tanks straight out of the factory.
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The Mustang I saw service with the British only. The Apache/Mustang IA saw service with the British and Americans and like the Mk Is served until the end of the war as Tac/R for the British and F-6A for reconnaissance for the Americans. I chose the P-51 Apache/Mustang for two reasons. First it served for both the British and the Americans and second because the name Apache is often misrepresented as belonging to the A-36 alone and for historical reasons alone it should be added to AH.... but also it scares the bejeezus out of you! :D
But as you well know Hitech and crew are more than skilled enough to add both.
LOL doesn't scare me, just is a misrepresentation of the 4 cannon 51 as being more of a presence then it was. None in the PTO/CBI. A very few with USAAF Tac Recon in the MTO, and use by RAF as Army Coop birds.
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Its you that are misrepresenting the important contribution of Tac/R and the fact that these same airplanes served through the war from their creation until the end.
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It appears to me that you are over stating their importance significantly, in order to justify including them. As Dan pointed out, there are other models of the P-51 that were used in greater numbers, and in more theaters than what you are asking for. I couldn't care less which model gets added, but to continue stating that it's next most significant model that needs to be added is clearly biased just to get a 4 cannon P-51 variant.
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You are putting words in my mouth Baumer. Historically speaking the P-51 Apache was the first 'Mustang' to serve in Americas air force and I dont think numbers matter unless you consider an airplane where there were ever only one or two examples. Even then given the rules as described by Hitech himself there may be exceptions. As someone that has been interested in P-51s his entire life there are three examples that I find most interesting and therefore the first I would choose. The P-51 Apache is the first and yes it is the 'coolest' looking of all of them (even though I have heard people call it ugly it certainly isnt to me). The A-36 Mustang (Apache) because it has those neat dive brakes that will scare the bejeezus out of anything underneath them (even though I dont know how HTC could put sound to the brakes like there would be in real life). Finally there is the P-51D which is the finest example of a fighter ever built.
I never said they had to be 'next.' I just want them added and I am willing to bribe for them. :D
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Its you that are misrepresenting the important contribution of Tac/R and the fact that these same airplanes served through the war from their creation until the end.
If you are really going to argue Tac recon importance you are still talking the 4 50 version of the Allision Mustang. The 4 cannon bird was not there til the end. Malcom hooded F6Bs with 4 50s were.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/F6B.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/F6B1.jpg)
The A36 was the first USAAF Mustang to see action btw. Big difference between that and getting taken over from the RAF. 93 Mustang Ia to RAF, 55 to the USAAF 54 of which were converted to camera birds, 33 of which went overseas. 111th Tac Recon Squadron had the few 4 cannon 51s as recce birds in the MTO
27th and 86th Fighter Groups took the A36 into combat in the MTO. 311th FG took the A36 into action in the CBI in 43. 23,373 combat missions for the A36s. 177 aircraft lost. 84 air to air and 17 ground kills. 8000 tons of bombs dropped. Loss rate of 0.8%
Interestingly enough the first RAF Mustang I was still flying combat in August 1940, three years after it rolled out of the factory. It too was a machine guns version of the Mustang.
I've got 40+ years of Mustang history under my belt too. First warbird I ever got into was a P51C that was in pieces next to a hanger. I well remember the Dallas factory data plate.
Again, I'm not against an Allison Mustang. I am against the 4 cannon bird being anywhere near the top of any Allison Mustang list. It is the least important historically of them all. Keep in mind scenario, FSO and Snapshot use too. Any of the MG Allision birds would have far more use from the ETO to MTO to CBI.
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USAAF Spitfire VIII pilot described the P-51D like thus after transitioning to it:
"It won't do what a Spitfire will do, but it will do it over Berlin."
You're bias is showing.
It has been pretty clear that the best fighter in US service, quite possibly best of the war, was the F4U. I say this as somebody who has no particular fondness for the F4U.
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Guppy: Now you are really confused. The four machine gun aircraft didnt come in until much later. The cannon armed P-51 Apache was used for evaluation and inspired later Mustang orders (A-36). The fifth production P-51 Apache (41-37324) was retained for F-6A modification and role trials with the USAAF. The very first A-36 Mustang (42-83663) didnt come into existence for more than a year later. I dont think the aircraft having been taken from a British order diminishes its historical significance at all. However...
The first American unit to fly the Mustang into action (combat) was the 154th Observation Squadron which used P-51-2NAs out of Morocco. If you look you will discover not only that this is true but that the P-51-2NA is a P-51 Apache with four 20mm cannon. That would be April and May of 1943. The A-36 Mustang did not see action (combat) until June of 1943 with the 27th and 86th Bombardment Groups.
Interestingly enough the first RAF Mustang I was still flying combat in August 1940, three years after it rolled out of the factory. It too was a machine guns version of the Mustang.
Rather hard for a plane to have been flying for three years just four months after the first contract delivery. You might want to check your data.
Karnak: That is a much butchered quote from Gunther Rall who said the Mustang was not the dogfighter the Spitfire was but the Mustang could dogfight over Berlin. I doubt very much Gunther Rall ever saw an Allison engined Mustang but that was a nice little twist you put on it. Also its hard to accept that the F4U was the 'best' because it simply could not do what the P-51 did and lacked about 1000 miles range in which to do it. If it was the best I believe the USAAF would have been using it instead of Mustangs.
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Typo. August 44 on that first RAF bird. Well our sources are different then as a couple of mine have the 27th and 86th going into combat in March 43 and state specifically that the A36 was the first USAAF Mustang in combat.
None of it changes that the 4 cannon 51 was the least significant Allision Mustang variant both in numbers and in actual combat use
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Production
model , # made
NA-73: 1
XP-51: 2
XP-51F: 3
XP-51H: 2
XP-51J: 2
Mk I: 620
Mk IA: 150
Mustang Mk IA and Mustang Mk II: 620
A-36A: 148 initially ordered 500
Delivered between September 1942 and March 1943.
P-51: 148
P-51A: 310
P-51A / Mk II: 310
P-51B: 1,988
Produced at Inglewood
Delivered in June 1943.
P-51C: 1,750
Produced at Dallas
P-51D: 7,956
P-51H: 555
P-51K: 1,337
P-51M: 1
Total: 15,576, 15,586
Variants
XP-51: Prototype evaluated by the United States Air Force and was not adopted.
XP-51B / XP-78: Had Packard V-1650-3 Merlin engine. Had ventral intercooler intake.
XP-51F: Prototype. Was to be light weight. Some parts were replaced by plastic.Wheels were smaller.Two of the MGs were removed. The Fuselage fuel tank was removed. A light three blade propeller was used. Saved about 1,500 lb / 680 kg.Speed increased by 25 mph / 40 kph. Flight stability stopped further work.
XP-51G: Prototype.Powered by Merlin 14SM (1,910 HP).
XP-51J: Prototype. Powered by Allison V-1710-119 (1,700 HP).
Mustang X: Was Mustang Is converted to have Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. Had bulbous nose intake.
NA-73: Prototype. Had an Allison V-1710-F3F engine (1,100 HP).
Mustang Mk I: Supplied to the Royal Air Force (RAF).
Mustang Mk IA: Supplied to the Royal Air Force (RAF).Had cannons for armament. Originally called Apache by the United States Army Air Force.
Mustang Mk II: Supplied to the Royal Air Force (RAF).
A-36A: Ground attack. Had wing bomb shackles. Had four 20 mm cannons in the wings.
P-51A / Mustang Mk II: Used a Allison V-1710-81 engine (1,200 HP).
P-51B / Mustang Mk III: Additional fuselage fuel tank.
P-51C / Mustang Mk III:
P-51D / Mustang Mk IV:
P-51H: Top speed was 472 mph / 760 kph1 / 487 mph / 784 kph
P-51K: Used Aeroproducts propeller.
P-51L: Used direct fuel injected V-1650-11. None built.
P-51M: Identical to P-51H but was to be built in different factory. One delivered.
F-6A: Photo reconnaissance conversion.Converted from 57 Mustang Mk IAs that were diverted from British orders right after Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
F-6B: Photo reconnaissance conversion Converted from 35 P-51As. Also 91 converted from P-51B.
based on what i see there was about 500 A-36A's compared to almost 8,000 51D's that being said the P51B model only had about 2,000 which is ingame now.
that also being said there was more operational A-36's that saw action then 262's they are in the game.
and the ar-234 had less then that
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You're bias is showing.
It has been pretty clear that the best fighter in US service, quite possibly best of the war, was the F4U. I say this as somebody who has no particular fondness for the F4U.
Keep in mind what is true in the game may or may not have been true in reality.
P-51 is an airplane that in reality acquitted itself just fine in hot and heavy dogfights with Me-109s over Europe and to a lesser extent against Russian prop fighters over Korea, and was considered a substantially better dogfighter than the P-47. This is not the case in AHII, where all the types named tend to have edge over the 'Stang in maneuver combat. Perhaps our ingame dogfights between Corsairs and Mustangs do not do the P-51 justice.
BTW, if you are comparing the P-51D to the F4U-4, that is not entirely fair. The F4U-4 served in the last few months of a war the P-51H missed by a whisker. It is clear that the Mustang vs. Corsair paradigm is going to pit speed and climb against light wingloading anytime the two airframes are engined to give similar thrust/weight...IOW, the classic "E fighter vs. Angles Fighter" debate.
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BnZ,
I was referring to reality, not the game. Captain Eric Brown and the Soccer War were my basis for the statement.
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BnZ,
I was referring to reality, not the game. Captain Eric Brown and the Soccer War were my basis for the statement.
That was Ds vs. -4s if IIRC... By what I'll "1946" standards, a standard P-51D is under-engined.
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None of it changes that the 4 cannon 51 was the least significant Allision Mustang variant both in numbers and in actual combat use
I dont think you should argue significance based on your information. The Ta-152 is reported to have gotten no more than seven kills in its service life (to four losses) and yet it is in the game. The 'Allison' P-51 Apache is one of the most easily recognized variant of the 'Mustang' line and it was the first to serve. Without it there would not have been a P-51 or an A-36 Mustang.
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That was Ds vs. -4s if IIRC... By what I'll "1946" standards, a standard P-51D is under-engined.
As a fighter, the P-51D is under-engined by 1943 standards.
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Actually the Mustangs were downed by F4U-5s and if the D-Mustang was underpowered by your standards it certainly did a lot of damage and so it must have had other characteristics that made it superior.
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Actually the Mustangs were downed by F4U-5s and if the D-Mustang was underpowered by your standards it certainly did a lot of damage and so it must have had other characteristics that made it superior.
Of course it did. Great high speed handling, great streamlining and phenomenal range. It was, without a doubt, the best escort fighter of WWII.
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As a fighter, the P-51D is under-engined by 1943 standards.
LOL, so are alot of fighters. Not every mission can be filled by an engine with a saddle strapped to it.
It was *good* with with a rather low thrust/horsepower ratio, you take the good points of the same machine, lighten and increase horsepower to maximize performance rather than range and it is *incredible*. IMHO, from a performance standpoint it was the best *airframe* of WWII.
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I dont think you should argue significance based on your information. The Ta-152 is reported to have gotten no more than seven kills in its service life (to four losses) and yet it is in the game. The 'Allison' P-51 Apache is one of the most easily recognized variant of the 'Mustang' line and it was the first to serve. Without it there would not have been a P-51 or an A-36 Mustang.
But this still comes down to 4 cannons or the more numerous MG variants. What's so important to you about the 4 cannons? Looking at the significance to the game of the MG variant Allison Mustangs vs the 4 cannon bird is no contest. There is far more scenario use for the MG birds as they served in greater numbers and in more places. The first to serve were not 4 cannon Mustangs but the MG equipped RAF Mustangs with the A36s showing up in greater numbers either just before or just after, depending on the source, the small number of recce 51s with 4 cannon.
Why so hung up on 4 cannons?
I don't recall being around for the discussion on introducing the Ta152 btw. I am a long time fanatic about the Spitfire XII of which 100 were built, serving in 2 squadrons. I have many a time said there are far more important birds I'd want to see before the XII and it's my favorite bird of all time.
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Guppy its pretty clear now that its YOU that have the hang up with four cannons. Historical significance to you is just a numbers game and thats just not how it works. And you are very much mistaken. The very first American 'Mustang' in combat was the P-51 Apache. Yes the British Mustang I was in service even before that.
And again its not about WHEN the P-51 Apache is added to the game but I wish it were added.
Since your so afraid of four cannon birds you might want to stick to tanks because we already have four cannon birds much more fearsome than the Apache its just Im not as fond of them as I am of the P-51 Apache.
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Personally, as being a self proclaimed 51 pilot, I'd rather just see the just the RAF Mustang I (2 .50s and 4 .30) with an Allison powerplant, the Mustang II (Allison powerplant w/ improved supercharger).
Specifications
Model - Mustang I
Production - 620
Length - 32.25
Height - 12.2
Wingspan - 37.04
Weight - empty - 6536
Weight - normal T.O. - 8600
Weight - max G.W. - 10,600
Powerplant - Allison V-1710-39
Horsepower - 1,150
Propeller - Curtiss 3-bladed electric 10'6"
Max Speed - 388 @ 15k
Service Ceiling - 30,800
Fuel Capacity - 180
Drop Tanks - na
Range - 750
Guns - 2x .50 cal, 4x .30 cal
Bomb / Rockets - na
Also the standard A-36 Apache would be great, considering the theaters of service it particpated in.
Specifications
Model - A-36
Production - 500
Length - 32.25
Height - 12.2
Wingspan - 37.04
Weight - empty - 6087
Weight - normal T.O. - 8600
Weight - max G.W. - 10,700
Powerplant - Allison V-1710-87
Horsepower - 1325
Propeller - Curtiss 3-bladed electric 10'9"
Max Speed - 356 @ 5k
Service Ceiling - 25,100
Fuel Capacity - 180
Drop Tanks - 2x 75 gal
Range - 750 / 1375+
Guns - 6x .50 cal
Bomb / Rockets - 2x 500 lb bombs
I've often wondered why the Mustangs didnt have the multiple variants in AH like the 109 series or the Spit Series. Looking at the generla shape of the planes, I dont think it would be overly hard for the talents of HTC to incorporate. So bring in more Mustangs, but leave the cannons at home.
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Bring on the cannon bird.....
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Chalenge,
If you want quad Hispanos so much, take one of the existing quad Hispano fighters up. There is nothing wrong with flying a Hurricane or Typhoon to get that fix. There is no need to swamp the MA with a historically insignificant version of the P-51. Just because you want that crutch is not a valid reason to add it in favor of much more representative models. If you don't think it would see massive over use, you are naive.
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Why would it Karnak?
The Typhoon would be faster, turn comparably, and carry more ordnance. Your arguement does not hold water, if so the Typhoon would be wildly popular. The first version of one of the most prolific fighters USAAF is hardly insignificant. Planes like the Me-163, N1K or Ta-152 flew less sorties and had even less of an impact.
Its his wish, it fits every critera HTC has set forth, get over it. Just because you don't like it....
:noid
Strip
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Strip,
The handling of the P-51 is very much superior to the Typhoon.
A side note, I don't know why you people always toss the N1K2-J into the same category as the Me163 and Ta152. More N1K2-J's saw service than C.205s, F4U-1C or Me262s. It was a very late fighter, but it wasn't that rare.
Comparing the N1K2-J to the quad 20mm P-51, well, in each case let us ask "Is there a more representative aircraft that could be added to cover the same time and place?" In the case of the N1K2-J, the answer is a definite "No." while in the case of the quad 20mm armed P-51 the answer is a definite "Yes." and that is why the quad 20mm P-51 should be a very low priority compared to the other Allison P-51s.
Anything else is just asking for quad 20mm cannons without any regards to the game or history for the sole reason that you want the firepower of four Hispanos on your P-51.
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It meets the criteria... it existed... flew enough sorties... actually WAS in the war...
Your scared Karnak. Thats all there is to it. :D
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Personally, as being a self proclaimed 51 pilot, I'd rather just see the just the RAF Mustang I (2 .50s and 4 .30) with an Allison powerplant, the Mustang II (Allison powerplant w/ improved supercharger).
At least get it right man! The RAF Mustang I had four .50s and four .30s. Two 30s in each wing with a .50 between them and two .50s in the nose.
I still prefer the ferocious look of the four cannons and it was the first to serve for the Americans!
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/mustang_01.jpg)
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/mustang_02.jpg)
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At least get it right man! The RAF Mustang I had four .50s and four .30s. Two 30s in each wing with a .50 between them and two .50s in the nose.
Minor Typo...
Mustang Mk IA
(http://cybermodeler.com/special/images/mustang_01.jpg)
Mustang Mk I
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/9/93/20090622212153!P-51_Mustang_Mk1_Oct1942.jpg)
B/C Pony with A-36 Apache
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/photo%20gallery/us%20mustangs/early/992.jpg)
I'd rather have 150 oct vs a cannoned pony...just me though.
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Why would it Karnak?
The Typhoon would be faster, turn comparably, and carry more ordnance. Your arguement does not hold water, if so the Typhoon would be wildly popular. The first version of one of the most prolific fighters USAAF is hardly insignificant. Planes like the Me-163, N1K or Ta-152 flew less sorties and had even less of an impact.
Its his wish, it fits every critera HTC has set forth, get over it. Just because you don't like it....
:noid
Strip
At typical MA altitudes the Typhoon is already faster and turns better than P-51Ds, the vast HOing incompetence showned by most Typhoon'ers not withstanding.
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It meets the criteria... it existed... flew enough sorties... actually WAS in the war...
Your scared Karnak. Thats all there is to it. :D
You don't care about history or what actually mattered, you just want four 20mm cannons.
You would see a plane that was insignificant taking 10-20% of the kills each tour just to satisfy your lust for cannons.
Look, if it had actually been a significant part of WWII I'd be on the bandwagon with you. You are talking about a plane that has a fraction the production of the N1K2-J and yet would overshadow the P-51s that actually did the work. The 20mm armed P-51 would be very dominant in AH due to the low level nature of the game.
The only way to add that version without screwing the game over is to have it as a perk armament for the MG armed Allison powered P-51s.
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You don't care about history or what actually mattered, you just want four 20mm cannons.
You would see a plane that was insignificant taking 10-20% of the kills each tour just to satisfy your lust for cannons.
The plane in your avatar has 4 20mms in the nose.....
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The plane in your avatar has 4 20mms in the nose.....
And almost 3,000 built that saw very heavy use.....and vastly inferior performance.
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And almost 3,000 built that saw very heavy use.....and vastly inferior performance.
I'm not saying I want a 20mm 'Stang particularly...the A-36 sounds like the most intriguing variant IMHO...but I don't think this would bring anything to the game that the Typhoon doesn't already, and if it did, well that is what the perk system is for. It wouldn't even be like having a PonyB with 4 cannons, its performance would be significantly lower.
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Closer in fact to a P-40E.....
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You don't care about history or what actually mattered, you just want four 20mm cannons.
You would see a plane that was insignificant taking 10-20% of the kills each tour just to satisfy your lust for cannons.
No I think we would see a lot more of these planes die than you think obviously. This isnt about what I would fly and I dont think that would change much either way. If the A-36 comes in I will use it a lot but the problem with it is it cant take down even a single hangar so it will be a tank buster while the P-51 Apache would be a better escort for town killers in my way of thinking. The point is the way you see things from the way they were in WWII is not at all how things end up in the game. With a 400 mile range and 2x burn multiplier I think it wont go far either way but it would be able to fly when the ENY goes high.
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Karnak,
You severely over estimate the impact of a four 20mm equipped Allison powered Mustang. The Mustang Ia would likely have a top speed of less than 375 mph at critical altitude. The SpitXVI, by comparison, has a top speed of a little over 405 mph.
Strip
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Karnak,
You severely over estimate the impact of a four 20mm equipped Allison powered Mustang. The Mustang Ia would likely have a top speed of less than 375 mph at critical altitude. The SpitXVI, by comparison, has a top speed of a little over 405 mph.
Strip
Top speed at critical altitude is meaningless in AH. Most combat happens at 5000ft or under.
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All critical altitude means is the maximum altitude at which the engine can still maintain full rated power which in this case is 11300 feet I believe. Pitiful by late war standards but even at that it was 5900 feet higher than the A-36 though the A-36 had more horsepower overall (1325 max takeoff and 1500 WEP versus 1120 max takeoff and 1220 BHP at 10500 ft) it lost it early in the climb. If the Mustang Ia had WEP I dont know what it would produce and I suspect it did not have much as maximum boost was 46" versus 44.5" max takeoff. Combat range being 400 miles (900 ferry range) with 180 gallons at a minimum fuel burn of 50 gph (best cruise) it will still have some pretty good legs but nothing special since it cant really be flown high alt.
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I just have one thing to say or maybe two. This is an arcade type game with no Historical significance except it uses WW2 equipment. All things I have read about WW2 I never read anything about a P51 shooting down a P38 or a 109 shooting down a Zero. So what is the big deal over the 51's. AH will add what they want and it has nothing to do with historical significance more then it will make this arcade type game more fun to pay and play. It has nothing of historical significance of the real WW2. It is a perk and point driven game not about history of the way it was in WW2. It is an ACRADE type game. So anything that was used in WW2 could be added in time if AH wants too. That is all. Have fun people!! :rolleyes:
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he said arcade ! burn him !!!! :O
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I just have one thing to say or maybe two. This is an arcade type game with no Historical significance except it uses WW2 equipment. All things I have read about WW2 I never read anything about a P51 shooting down a P38 or a 109 shooting down a Zero. So what is the big deal over the 51's. AH will add what they want and it has nothing to do with historical significance more then it will make this arcade type game more fun to pay and play. It has nothing of historical significance of the real WW2. It is a perk and point driven game not about history of the way it was in WW2. It is an ACRADE type game. So anything that was used in WW2 could be added in time if AH wants too. That is all. Have fun people!! :rolleyes:
[/quote
With that logic then we might as well make this SWOTL and get rid of anything that isn't a 45-46 bird.
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Anyways...
Yes, to the Allison engined Mustang/P-51s (of any name), they would be good for FSOs as they were used as Recce and Fighter-Attack birds in NW Europe, Med, and Burma. Im also sure they would have some LWA fans as well as its a popular a/c.
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Top speed at critical altitude is meaningless in AH. Most combat happens at 5000ft or under.
Karnak,
Until the foundation for your argument does NOT include bias towards not having a cannon bird please let it go.
Edit: Even below critical altitude the Spit 16 would outpace the early P-51 variants. Anyone intending to fly it simply for cannons would be better served in the Typhoon. Thus it is highly unlikely that a four 20mm equiped Mustang would have a great impact on the dynamics of AH2 in the MA.
Strip
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I'd rock a 51A or Mustang I or A-36...I dont even need the cannon for compensation... :devil :D
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You need some compensation for that k/d of yours! :D
Give me a P-51 Apache so I can stop repeating my wish!
Maybe I should just pack off the whiskey and let Hitech decide later. :aok
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"Edit: Even below critical altitude the Spit 16 would outpace the early P-51 variants"
Not from the #s I have seen. It was not a slow fighter, its just that its high alt performance (above 15k) was more limited than the merlin Mustangs. The P-51A would hit @ 400 mph at 10k, which is a good 20 mph faster than a Spit XVI, whos crit alt is 20k, and its S.L speed was @ 340 mph. It was kept on as a Recce fighter into 1944 in the ETO, largely because of its fast med-low performance. That coupled with its lighter weight (@8000 lbs), it would be a very slippery opponent below 15k, being perhaps 10mph slower than a P-51B but with a lighter wing loading.
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I'd rock a 51A or Mustang I or A-36...I dont even need the cannon for compensation... :devil :D
Hell ya!