Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 28, 2009, 06:15:50 PM
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Anyone eard about that? I was wondering if it was a fake news report, sadly I fear not. Very saddening to see this poor gal struggling like that :salute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEN5KGwNGeo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEN5KGwNGeo&feature=related)
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Wow that is really saddening.
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Interesting that it didn't mention any medical connection, just that she came down with the disease 10 days later, yet they quite clearly crucified the vaccine as the cause of her affliction.
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"Desiree Jennings thought it would be a good idea to get the seasonal flu shot. Her job offered incentives for it, and she didn't want to get sick."
seasonal flu shot - not N1H1
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/health/One-in-a-Million-Shot-64189142.html
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Yep.
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There is always a chance that you will have a reaction to the flu vaccine.
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"Desiree Jennings thought it would be a good idea to get the seasonal flu shot. Her job offered incentives for it, and she didn't want to get sick."
seasonal flu shot - not N1H1
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/health/One-in-a-Million-Shot-64189142.html
Thing is that that vacine has been used for years and the Swine Flu vacine is brand new. Makes you wonder how many side effects will come out when everyone starts taking it since it was rushed out.
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Thing is that that vacine has been used for years and the Swine Flu vacine is brand new. Makes you wonder how many side effects will come out when everyone starts taking it since it was rushed out.
the swine flu vaccine is the regular vaccine, they just tweaked it for a specific kind of flu...same as they do every year.
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I think the fear of H1N1 is rather irrational given that it has killed far fewer than previous flu seasons and does not appear to be accelerating.
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I think the fear of H1N1 is rather irrational given that it has killed far fewer than previous flu seasons and does not appear to be accelerating.
Again, it's not the number it's killing but WHO it is killing...those being healthy young people in their mid 20's and 30's. It isn't killing the older people and those that are immuno-compromised already, because they've already been exposed to the base genetics of this bug. (generally accepted to be the 1975 H1)
I caught and was clinically diagnosed with H1N1, but barely developed any symptoms. I suspect that is probably due to being exposed to the virus while a fetus, to which my doctor also agrees. The person I caught it from was a visiting grad student to the lab I work in. She's in the hospital on a ventilator, as she was one of the ones susceptible to viral progression into the alveoli.
Irrational it is not. If you are younger than 30, I'd suggest vaccination. Russian roulette with one live round out of a thousand round clip is still russian roulette.
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Again, it's not the number it's killing but WHO it is killing...those being healthy young people in their mid 20's and 30's. It isn't killing the older people and those that are immuno-compromised already, because they've already been exposed to the base genetics of this bug
Though, it's mainly killing people with severe health issues, who might've died to a regular influenza just as well.
Regardless, I'm in favor of vaccination, should I get it before the virus gets to me. Unfortunately the government has decided to vaccinate everyone else before those healthy people at their 20's and 30's, who's most susceptible to the virus. It'll be at least a month to go.
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first its very important to note that a very SMALL percentage of cases being reported as H1N1 are actually factual....... if you goto the doctor with a common cold it is marked on your chart as "flu like" symptoms...... these cases are ultimately being reported as H1N1
second in regards to the vaccine......... the case cited by the OP is an actual case caused by a flu vaccine..... the difference being that she received a form of the vaccine for the regular flu which contained mercury...... the same type of vaccine which caused a large number of issues in the 70s and has caused issues throughout its useage...... just not in large enough numbers to be a worrysome report.... youre hearing about this one because its on everyones minds so it becomes news
the "new" vaccine was supposed to not contain any mercury....... that is until they realized they werent going to make production quotas and have now allowed the mercury content vaccines to be used for H1N1 as well...... so we will see problems as a result, despite their best assurances
an untested vaccine containing mercury is a problem waiting to happen....... especially since like I said youre being lied to about this being an "epidemic"
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Again, it's not the number it's killing but WHO it is killing...those being healthy young people in their mid 20's and 30's.
Yeah, that's what's got my attention. There was a story of a healthy teenager in Fort Worth, Texas who would have died if not for the intervention by medical personnel to keep her lungs and air passages open. She's OK now. :pray
Three of four of us in this abode caught and recovered from the flu in October. As of three weeks ago, they were not even testing in Austin for the type of flu you contracted, except at the Dell Children's Hospital, because %98 of those tested returned a positive for the H1N1.
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So if the flu kills 200000 old people its not so bad but if it kills 1000 young people its a pandemic? Not hardly moray.
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I'm not hopping on the alarmist band wagon. But I won't deny that the interview with the vibrant young lady who only days before was fighting for her life gave me a reason to pause and think. That's all I'm saying.
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The problem is that according to studies a certain percentage of flu vaccination receivers get symptoms like:
Anafylactic shock resulting in death (doctors are adviced to keep adrenaline at hand)
MS disease
Guillan-Barre syndrome
So if everyone takes the vaccination and 30% of population would actually catch the flu, 2/3 more people are subjected to the chance of getting the above results.
This means that a wide spread vaccination will probably end up maiming and killing more people than the flu would. And make the medical companies millions and millions richer.
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The problem is that according to studies a certain percentage of flu vaccination receivers get symptoms like:
Anafylactic shock resulting in death (doctors are adviced to keep adrenaline at hand)
MS disease
Guillan-Barre syndrome
So if everyone takes the vaccination and 30% of population would actually catch the flu, 2/3 more people are subjected to the chance of getting the above results.
This means that a wide spread vaccination will probably end up maiming and killing more people than the flu would. And make the medical companies millions and millions richer.
QFT
This variant of flu is no worse than any other in history.......... and in fact its only effecting a VERY SMALL percentage of the population compared to the normal seasonal flu
the risk of the vaccine causing you to develop severe reactions, some which result in you become as useful as a garden rock or worse dead, is far greater than the odds of becoming seriously ill enough to die from the flu
I like my odds alot better without the vaccine
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I like my odds alot better without the vaccine
Me too, that why no one at this home took it.
That, and... Let's just say I have big trust issues.
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This means that a wide spread vaccination will probably end up maiming and killing more people than the flu would. And make the medical companies millions and millions richer.
You hit the nail on the head. This is not about people's safety...this is the drug companies making a whole lot of money.
Feel sorry for my neighbors to the south (USA)..... I hear some states are going "mandatory". :confused:
One good thing.......... we have information at our fingertips, via the Internet. The "witches brew" that they mixed up is poison. Sad thing is most people are sheep, and will line up to get this shot thinking the Government has their better interest in mind. Ya right.... :rolleyes:
They will be hard pressed to inject that crap in my body.
Check out this video............... Mike Wallis from 60 Minutes in 1976 on this very topic
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9mh9f_swine-flu-1976-propaganda_webcam
:O
Are YOU willing to gamble?
peace,
capera
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I didn't want to get censored, but capera pretty much covered all I had to say. Like i said, BIG trust issues.
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Censored? :frown:
Little confused here...... do they censor people here on the Aces High message board?
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This flu is no joking matter, since it compares with the Spanish flu of 1918.
That one left one in three sick, of those 10-20% died. That makes 3-6% of a population dead, Some insulated placed suffered much much more.
If the USA would have 3% dead, that would be 9 million corpses, - in some months. Makes the U.S. casualties of WWI + WW2 + Korea + Vietnam + the Gulf look like a joke all put together.
It is not to be expected though, and for 2 reasons mainly. Firstly the health and feeding standard of the population, and secondly the vaccination and clinical quality compared to the war torn world in 1918.
The flu is already catchy. In my local school, 10% or more are already sick. I do not know if the virus has mutilated yet, but my little country already had it's firs victim, - 18 yr old girl.
So, I'll bloody well get vaccinated when the stuff comes, as well as at least my younger daughter, - we are the ones that have got bronchitis, so we do not take lung diseases all too well. And thumbs up for the effort that lead to the vaccine, - it's been going on for more than ten years, beginning with the hunt for the original spanish flu virus, which was finally found in Alaska.
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Evolution in action....or not....survival of the fattest?
Something has to kill you at some point, thats life.
:cheers:
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And some people breed themselves out by being so stupid, that they trust in fate rather than taking action to avoid unneccesary risk. Worse even, when people thake such decisions for others.
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Censored? :frown:
Little confused here...... do they censor people here on the Aces High message board?
Yes, political discussion has been disallowed in the O' club. See O' Club forum rule #14. Anything aproximating political speech might get censored. So this conversation of the vaccine, in the context of the several points in your post, becomes quite political.
I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just answering capera's question. :noid
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The problem is that according to studies a certain percentage of flu vaccination receivers get symptoms like:
Anafylactic shock resulting in death (doctors are adviced to keep adrenaline at hand)
MS disease
Guillan-Barre syndrome
So if everyone takes the vaccination and 30% of population would actually catch the flu, 2/3 more people are subjected to the chance of getting the above results.
This means that a wide spread vaccination will probably end up maiming and killing more people than the flu would. And make the medical companies millions and millions richer.
That is a load of populistic and hysterical BS.
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More people got sick from the vaccine than from the flu in '75. That's not populistic and hysterical BS, that's recent history...
Oh, and we were all worried about impending new Ice Age back in those days.
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I think the fear of H1N1 is rather irrational given that it has killed far fewer than previous flu seasons and does not appear to be accelerating.
one of my customers is a pediatrician. i was talking to him about the swine flu the other day when he dropped his car off for work.
he has 4 of his patients in the hospital right now with it. i had asked him what exactly the hype is, considering a lot of people say that the plain old flu is actually much worse.
he said that the the thing that scares them about this one, is that although it's less likely to kill one, than the "normal" flu, it seems to have the ability to come out of nowhere, and strike younger, otherwise perfectly healthy people.
i might be typing that slightly differently than how he phrased it........
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Again, it's not the number it's killing but WHO it is killing...those being healthy young people in their mid 20's and 30's. It isn't killing the older people and those that are immuno-compromised already, because they've already been exposed to the base genetics of this bug. (generally accepted to be the 1975 H1)
I caught and was clinically diagnosed with H1N1, but barely developed any symptoms. I suspect that is probably due to being exposed to the virus while a fetus, to which my doctor also agrees. The person I caught it from was a visiting grad student to the lab I work in. She's in the hospital on a ventilator, as she was one of the ones susceptible to viral progression into the alveoli.
Irrational it is not. If you are younger than 30, I'd suggest vaccination. Russian roulette with one live round out of a thousand round clip is still russian roulette.
hs anyone thought about just why this seems to kill younger "healthy" people?
could it be, because younger people tend to take a pill for anything, whereas us old farts just ride it out when we don't feel good?
i mean, c;mon.....listen to commercials. 1/2 of em are for some kind of drug. heartburn is a disease now, they have medications out the wazoo for allergies(mostly with side effects worse than the allergy), they have drugs to suppress womens periods, drugs for guys that can't get it up, drugs for just about ANYTHING.
i would have to imagine it's mostly younge peeps taking these things. and (in my opinion) anything you take will cause SOME sort of d side effect. if it's for allergies, a cold, a bad cold, sore back, whatever.....it's going to lower your body's resistance to infections.
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You hit the nail on the head. This is not about people's safety...this is the drug companies making a whole lot of money.
Feel sorry for my neighbors to the south (USA)..... I hear some states are going "mandatory". :confused:
One good thing.......... we have information at our fingertips, via the Internet. The "witches brew" that they mixed up is poison. Sad thing is most people are sheep, and will line up to get this shot thinking the Government has their better interest in mind. Ya right.... :rolleyes:
They will be hard pressed to inject that crap in my body.
Check out this video............... Mike Wallis from 60 Minutes in 1976 on this very topic
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9mh9f_swine-flu-1976-propaganda_webcam
:O
Are YOU willing to gamble?
peace,
capera
i can't remember the last time i ever had a vaccination for anything.
o yea....and i won't be jumping in line to get one for this either. :aok
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hs anyone thought about just why this seems to kill younger "healthy" people?
could it be, because younger people tend to take a pill for anything, whereas us old farts just ride it out when we don't feel good?
i mean, c;mon.....listen to commercials. 1/2 of em are for some kind of drug. heartburn is a disease now, they have medications out the wazoo for allergies(mostly with side effects worse than the allergy), they have drugs to suppress womens periods, drugs for guys that can't get it up, drugs for just about ANYTHING.
i would have to imagine it's mostly younge peeps taking these things. and (in my opinion) anything you take will cause SOME sort of d side effect. if it's for allergies, a cold, a bad cold, sore back, whatever.....it's going to lower your body's resistance to infections.
Not many bright heads on this thread I'm afraid.
The Flu of 1918 was very similar, killing mostly people between 20 and 40 in good health. Way before either antibiotics or the P-Pill, allergy medicine etc etc.
It came in 2 waves, the second one being the mutilated virus, and very much more deadly.
The more people in the pool, the sooner happens the mutilation. Yet, the lucky ones are the ones infected in the first round, since they get just a "flu", but are immune to the "uberflu".
Casualties in 1918: 50-100 MILLION people. In USA, at least 500.000 people.
May you enjoy your flu.
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Not many bright heads on this thread I'm afraid.
The Flu of 1918 was very similar, killing mostly people between 20 and 40 in good health. Way before either antibiotics or the P-Pill, allergy medicine etc etc.
It came in 2 waves, the second one being the mutilated virus, and very much more deadly.
The more people in the pool, the sooner happens the mutilation. Yet, the lucky ones are the ones infected in the first round, since they get just a "flu", but are immune to the "uberflu".
Casualties in 1918: 50-100 MILLION people. In USA, at least 500.000 people.
May you enjoy your flu.
well...hopefully i don't get it.........but then i've been one of those lucky enough to very rarely ever get sick..........
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Well cap don't leave the country to go to some of the more interesting places around the world. You have to take all kinds of crap and get all kinds of vaccinations for stuff. Better not get cut on anything rusty. Course some people say lockjaw is fun. And GERD can cause severe damage to the esophagus. It can get as bad as a bleeding ulcer in your stomach.
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Well cap don't leave the country to go to some of the more interesting places around the world. You have to take all kinds of crap and get all kinds of vaccinations for stuff. Better not get cut on anything rusty. Course some people say lockjaw is fun. And GERD can cause severe damage to the esophagus. It can get as bad as a bleeding ulcer in your stomach.
you mentioned getting cut on something rusty.
funny thing about that.
when i was younger, i used to get infections in cuts and scrapes ALL the time. always had to constantly pay attention to them, clean em with peroxide, etc.
ever since i've started fixing cars for a living(over 25 years ago.....god that makes me feel old).....i've NEVER had an infection in a single cut, or scrape. and face it. when you're turning wrenches, you're lucky to go a full month without some sort of injury.
this includes one that i cut my forearm open while working on a cobra kit.....took four stitches in the er.....blood was pouring out like someone turned on a spigot(scared the poop out of me as i'd never seen blood come out that fast before)
talking to other mechanics and techs, they say the same thing. weird, eh?
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That is a load of populistic and hysterical BS.
http://www.rokotusinfo.fi/
more populistic and hysterical BS. Statistics are populistic and hysterical too considering that many vaccinations expose you to a higher risk than what they're supposed to cure.
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So,,,,,remembering that I got ill from the Pox vaccination, would that mean that getting the pox was better? :eek:
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my nephews were diagnosed with N1H1, they are 2,3, and 12 years old. The 2 year old developed pneumonia (sp?) but they all were fine after a week and were bak in school 2 weeks afterwards.
I hung out with them when they first developed the symptoms and I believe I caught the swine flu as well. After 2 days I had a scratchy throat, slight fever, and congestion. 3 Days later all the symptoms went away and never had a problem since then.
At the time I was 18 (this was about 2 months ago) and I still am not in any hurry to get a vaccination. I only had the flu once in my life back when I was 15 and never had a shot for it.
AFter being exposed to N1H1 and being ok, I think it would be redundant to even get a shot now.
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Considering I don't have many friends compared to the average teenager (Yeah, yeah, I know. But I really do prefer a few close friends to having literally hundreds that I barely talk to) and five or six of them have been diagnosed with H1N1, it is a threat at at least some level. That said, they were all immediately chained to their beds, drowned in OJ, and eventually became well again or are on the way there.
Erika shipped off to Washington State University, where there's been an apparent massive outbreak. The University of Washington (Go Huskies :D) saw that and (since they start later) began distributing "flu packs" to students, full of all the basic immune-boosting stuff like vitamins and juice packets, and it showed them by example exactly what they needed to do to stay healthy.
From what I've heard, it's worked. WSU is still dealing with the outbreak and I haven't heard anything out of UW yet.
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Don't get flu vaccine and never will. Let the chips fall as they may.
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Not many bright heads on this thread I'm afraid.
So....if we do not agree with your stand point, we are not intelligent?
Actually..... what I am witnessing in this thread is the complete opposite. People have more information at their disposal, and are making decisions based on this information. Back in the mid 70's we all know we only had the local library and what the media told us.......today we have the internet and other reliable sources at our disposal.
You have your opinion......I have mine. I will not insult your intelligence seeing you support this vaccine....and I expect the same in return. Anything less, is just juvenile.
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So....if we do not agree with your stand point, we are not intelligent?
Actually..... what I am witnessing in this thread is the complete opposite. People have more information at their disposal, and are making decisions based on this information. Back in the mid 70's we all know we only had the local library and what the media told us.......today we have the internet and other reliable sources at our disposal.
You have your opinion......I have mine. I will not insult your intelligence seeing you support this vaccine....and I expect the same in return. Anything less, is just juvenile.
that's most probably due to the fact that he's one of the ones "brainwashed" into thinking that what the govt says is good is good.
hence...the govt says we should get these vaccinations, so he(and others) think we should all drop what we;re doing, and go get them.
as i've said earlier, i can't recall the last vaccination i had....and don't plan on any anytime soon.
as for traveling outside the us? meh.......it's irrelevent to me, as there's really no place that piques my interest enough to want to go outside this great country. :aok
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today we have the internet and other reliable sources at our disposal.
The words 'internet' and 'reliable' should not be mentioned in the same sentence :D
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The words 'internet' and 'reliable' should not be mentioned in the same sentence :D
AHII is a reliable sim on the internet :O
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Being on dialysis means I get both reg flu and swine flu vaccines. While I have
been fortunate in the past not to have had either, can't afford to take chances now.
The nice thing is that I get both shots at the center, which means no extra effort
on my part :aok
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I was referring to the tetanus shot they give you if your last one wasn't within the last 5 years of the injury. As far as the Pox vaccine is concerned, I wonder if you can pay a doctor to get it for you?
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I was referring to the tetanus shot they give you if your last one wasn't within the last 5 years of the injury. As far as the Pox vaccine is concerned, I wonder if you can pay a doctor to get it for you?
i don't recall them giving me any shots, except to numb my forearm for the stitches.
it was pretty disgusting/amazing to watch the doc. sew my arm closed, and not feel a dam thing. :aok
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Course can't be any worse than basic in 2000. All we were told was roll up you sleeves and wipe your arms with these alcohol soaked cotton balls. I still don't have a clue to what the vaccines were. Knew what the skin pop was for and what the arse shot was.
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Course can't be any worse than basic in 2000. All we were told was roll up you sleeves and wipe your arms with these alcohol soaked cotton balls. I still don't have a clue to what the vaccines were. Knew what the skin pop was for and what the arse shot was.
i should clarify.....i'm not against people going for these vaccinations....nor am i against them being offered, or recommended.
i just don't feel the need or desire for me personally to do it.,
that said........what you typed above.......that's a little scary. if for no other reason, than my stupid bellybutton being afraid of needles. :noid
:bolt: would be me. :rofl
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They only one you would have tried to pull a :bolt: for would have been the bicillin in the cheek. Friggin hurt like hell getting the injection and for 3 days after it. Damn guys that were allergic to pennicillin thought it was funny to see people rubbing their buttcheek and limping.
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I havent had it and will never take one no matter what
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Course can't be any worse than basic in 2000. All we were told was roll up you sleeves and wipe your arms with these alcohol soaked cotton balls. I still don't have a clue to what the vaccines were. Knew what the skin pop was for and what the arse shot was.
Ditto 1990 What the heck did they just shoot in me? :uhoh
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Ditto 1990 What the heck did they just shoot in me? :uhoh
little rfd chips. they know what you're thinking right now. :noid :noid
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oh s!@#$ I'm f!@#$.... :noid :noid :noid
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Course can't be any worse than basic in 2000. All we were told was roll up you sleeves and wipe your arms with these alcohol soaked cotton balls. I still don't have a clue to what the vaccines were. Knew what the skin pop was for and what the arse shot was.
You throw away the little yellow book (the U.S. Department of Public Health International Certificate of Vaccinations) you were issued ?
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http://www.rokotusinfo.fi/
more populistic and hysterical BS. Statistics are populistic and hysterical too considering that many vaccinations expose you to a higher risk than what they're supposed to cure.
lol, you really do believe that site, don't you? The site was founded on an agenda for christ sake! You should make a background check on the people behind the organization and where from they amend their so called truth - mostly from other sources with a similar agenda. That's really reliable information you got there. All in the name of self-determination.
Not much of a self-determination there when you're being lead to a certain conclusion by having fuel provided for your fears.
While you've acted critically towards the information provided by the officials you haven't acted critically towards this organization.
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On the other hand, it's psychologically obvious that when you stubbornly decide that the top of the problem is a myth or overblown (the flu), you then bias everything that's trying to prove you wrong. Just sayin'.
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lol, you really do believe that site, don't you? The site was founded on an agenda for christ sake! You should make a background check on the people behind the organization and where from they amend their so called truth - mostly from other sources with a similar agenda. That's really reliable information you got there. All in the name of self-determination.
Not much of a self-determination there when you're being lead to a certain conclusion by having fuel provided for your fears.
While you've acted critically towards the information provided by the officials you haven't acted critically towards this organization.
Can you prove any of that information to be false? I didn't think so.
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On the other hand, it's psychologically obvious that when you stubbornly decide that the top of the problem is a myth or overblown (the flu), you then bias everything that's trying to prove you wrong. Just sayin'.
or vise-versa
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Can you prove any of that information to be false? I didn't think so.
Let's not forget that you're the one trying to spread information from the site as a truth, I'm not. How about you do that, prove that all the information indeed is genuine and not affected by bias to any degree.
Regardless, I already told you to do a background check. But since you haven't, let me assist you a bit:
"1. Keitä Rokotusinfo ry:ssä toimii, miksi ja millä asiantuntemuksella?"
"-- Lääkärin koulutusta tai muuten lääketieteellistä tutkintoa ei ole kenelläkään hallituksessa --"
In english:
"1. Who work at Rokotusinfo organization, why and with what expertise?"
" -- Nobody in the board has a doctor's education or other kind of medical degree --"
Originally I intented to say that they're no different from people in the forums, which is nearly the truth. People in their discussion forum are told to contribute to alot of the organization's information.
"9. Oletteko tarkistaneet, että kaikki sivuillanne esittämänne lainaukset ja linkit perustuvat tieteellisiin tosiasioihin?"
"Meillä ei ole mahdollisuuksia arvioida kaikkea mihin viittaamme ja mitä lainaamme, emmekä myöskään pyri esittämään kantaa, onko joku väite totta vai ei, vaan kirjaston tavoin pyrimme tarjoamaan työkaluja ja viitteitä joilla ihmiset voivat itse kriittisesti arvioida lukemaansa"
"9. Have you verified that all the quotes and links on your website are based on scientific facts?"
"We have no capability to evaluate everything we refer to and quote, neither are we trying to present an opinion whether an argument is true or not, but to offer tools and references like a library so people can self critically evaluate what they have read".
Have you practiced criticism with the information of the library, like they've told you to do?
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or vise-versa
Also true.
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Have you practiced criticism with the information of the library, like they've told you to do?
The information on their site does not differ from the information from the official sources. There are already known cases of people developing chronic symptoms after the shot.
Tell me, can you vouch that every link that you send is 100% accurate? Nobody can say that. Especially in a case like this where no real research information does not exist and many sources contradict eachothers.
If h1n1 is comparable to a normal flu only a retard would risk chronic symptoms trying to avoid it.
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I personally do not have a medical degree........ and have never diagnosed any disease accurately......
however neither does anyone else in this discussion.......
the best that any of us can do is look at ALL of the facts and make our best INFORMED decision
I cant say that Ive read 100% of every publication or story written in regards to H1N1.... but the ones I have read paint a very clear picture for me (thats me not anyone else)
Ive read the press releases from govt sources as well as independant sources both for and against ......... including most recently the CDC information posted yesterday
what I find for ME personally interesting is that the govt decided months ago there was no reason whatsoever to try to keep accurate numbers and confirm cases.... in fact the CDC report released yesterday clearly says their figures are based on estimates and assumptions........ for instance they "estimate" (based on the fact that the vast majority of cases {in their own words} were too minor to require medical attention) that for every 1 person who sees a doctor for H1N1 there are 80 people whos symptoms arent severe enough to seek medical attention
they also state that for every 1 person sick enough to be hospitalized there are 3 others who are hospitalized who havent been diagnosed with H1N1.........
where in the world do they make up these numbers is my first question....... my second question is if youre telling me that its 80:1 odds that if I get H1N1 I wont even become sick enough to see a doctor then where is the panic coming from??
on the other hand many other credible sources have stated the risks involved with the vaccine which are by the CDCs own account greater than the risk of serious illness from the disease
the only thing we have to qualify risks involved with the vaccine are known cases since the govt refuses to do any testing on the vaccine before it is released
as history has proven and by the govts own admission past cases of serious side effects have occurred at a high risk factor enough to warrant concern by ME
so for ME and mine there will be no vaccine of any type......... as for you... do as you wish
as for the link posted by Ripley...... it pretty well speaks for itself........ it says on there very clearly that they are neither promoting or discouraging the use of the vaccine...... they are simply trying to provide you with information to make your own informed decision.......
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Tell me, can you vouch that every link that you send is 100% accurate? Nobody can say that. Especially in a case like this where no real research information does not exist and many sources contradict eachothers.
First you want me to prove the information is false and now you say you cannot vouch for the accuracy. Thank you for your co-operation.
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I was referring to the tetanus shot they give you if your last one wasn't within the last 5 years of the injury. As far as the Pox vaccine is concerned, I wonder if you can pay a doctor to get it for you?
Nope. The Pox was exterminated with stiff use of Vaccine, but sadly it has not been kept. The last stock of the Virus that I heard of was in Russia, but "disappeared". In the cold war, it was being considered to use a mutilated pox variant as a weapon.
Pox is scary, and if it was still on the loose, you'd have to be a complete idiot NOT to get vaccinated. Same applies to the original Spanish flu of 1918. We do not yet know if the swine flu is as fierce, since there seems to be little information about the mutilation.
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I wish they'd mutilate it, then we wouldn't have to worry about it. Sucks that it mutates instead.
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however neither does anyone else in this discussion.......
the best that any of us can do is look at ALL of the facts and make our best INFORMED decision
That is a problem. Nobody here has reliable information. The problem is that people give more weight to the sources that make them most afraid.
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as with anything there are always those who will be negative without becoming informed........ as I said earlier vise-versa there are just as many who will follow blindly
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as with anything there are always those who will be negative without becoming informed........ as I said earlier vise-versa there are just as many who will follow blindly
Please describe "becoming informed"; Is it becoming informed, if you read the alternative sources provided by 911 conspiracy theorists and consider those to be more reliable than the officials or experts?
What is going on here is that alot of the anti-vaccination sources in vaccination death cases rely on unverified cause of death - on a speculation. If and once the cause is found to be something else than the vaccination the errorneous information is not corrected, but the story of a vaccination death lives on. It's especially sad that the speculation is reported with huge headlines in the media, but the verified cause becomes a side note if it's different from the speculation. O tempora, o mores.
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Nope. The Pox was exterminated with stiff use of Vaccine, but sadly it has not been kept.
The Pox is not exterminated yet. The last outbreak in the western world that I know of was in Sweden in the 70's I think. It keeps coming back though in the third world.
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try the CDC for a source............ at least in the US that would be the "horses mouth"
they cite that on average every year there are approx 3000-6000 unexplained cases of GBS (thats about 1-2 per 100K)
they cite that an additional 1 per 100K (thats 3000 people) develop GBS as a result of flu vaccines
other interesting statistics from the CDC (using data for years prior to 2009):
on average over 200,000 people are hospitalized with serious cases of the flu each year
on average over 36,000 people die from flu related illness each year
current statistics for H1N1 are below average for the first 9 months as compared to previous years (its only when they uses "assumed" or "estimated" data that it even comes close)
so far this year in the US there has been slightly over 5,000 confirmed hospitalization cases in the US of SOME type of flu (they decided not to classify specifically for H1N1 in their testing or at least in their publicized numbers) note: they 'estimate' there may be as many as 20,000 hospitalized but not confirmed cases
so far this year there has been slightly over 300 confirmed deaths in the US of SOME type of flu (again they decided not to classify specifically for H1N1 in their testing or at least in their publicized numbers) note: they 'estimate' there may be as many as 1200 deaths but not confirmed
now if you know a better source than the CDC Ill gladly read it
Edit: Its important to note IMO why exactly everyone is so up in arms about H1N1 vs every other year.....
While the "normal" seasonal flu does indeed kill as many or more and cause illness in as many or more each year......... this years variant is effecting a different group of people harder than normal
those who already suffer another type of ailment seem especially vulnerable this year..... as well as children (in fact of the 300 confirmed deaths 1/3 of them are children)
so as I said...... if you decide to take the vaccine based on your personal circumstances then thats for you to decide............
I personally dont feel its necessary for me and mine
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First you want me to prove the information is false and now you say you cannot vouch for the accuracy. Thank you for your co-operation.
Lol either you're a retard or you try hard to look like one. There's a difference with saying EVERY link is 100% accurate and asking you to prove your claims.
When I was talking about 100% accuracy I was referring to the text you cut/pasted from the site. Naturally they can't verify ALL their sources, especially this being the internet. Every major news corporation feeds out false information on daily basis - some of which is later corrected some are not. Helium balloon boy, anyone?
In medical cases the ABSOLUTE 100% correct truth now can be TOTALLY REVERSED the next year or even the next day. Thalidomide, anyone?
Not so many years ago the official absolute best treatment for the condition would have been blood-letting. The authority can have it so wrong but you have to believe since he's the authority. So when the healthcare organization claims the vaccination is TOTALLY safe despite several research information contradicting that, you're supposed to believe. And you seem to do.
It's easy to kill the credibility of that site, just pick one information on the site and prove it wrong. Should be easy enough. Hell you'll probably find SOMETHING.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpLdc4vMpFY&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpLdc4vMpFY&feature=player_embedded)
Oh and they gave the drug companys legal immunity, so you can't even sue them if something goes wrong, neat eh?
Go back to bed, America, your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed America, your government is in control. Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their diddlying skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!
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You throw away the little yellow book (the U.S. Department of Public Health International Certificate of Vaccinations) you were issued ?
You don't get those during basic. As far as that goes the Air Force lost my medical records when I was a kid so. :confused:
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"Desiree Jennings thought it would be a good idea to get the seasonal flu shot. Her job offered incentives for it, and she didn't want to get sick."
seasonal flu shot - not N1H1
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/health/One-in-a-Million-Shot-64189142.html
I do not take the seasonal flu shot....the last time I did, I got the most narly case of the flu I'd had in my life.... NO!....to the seasonal flu shot! :aok
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I guess that means the argumentation is over since it's gone to direct insults in the lack of a better response.
Batch,
As far as I know the exact reasons for developing GBS are still widely unknown as is the case with many other neurological syndromes too. What is known is that it usually happens after a viral infection, but sometimes after surgery or vaccination. This is hardly a reason to be afraid of vaccination, since the same can happen after a cold, which is a viral infection, that an average person contract's once or twice a year. A cold, flu and vaccine triggers the same mechanisms that can lead to the GBS. So in effect you're facing an equal risk once or twice a year as when taking a vaccine. In fact a regular flu has a higher risk of causing the GBS than vaccination. So you might be actually taking a smaller risk with the vaccine than if you contract swine flu.
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Fishu, Your response leads me to believe you have more than layman's knowledge. Did you go to medical school?
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DieHard, the mass vaccination of pox stopped about 1973. Hence, you can at least tell the age of people in the swimming pool by the scar on either the arse-side or the left upper arm.
I got vaccinated, my wife born in 1974 didn't. She's younger, hehe. I actually got vaccinated before she was born.
Anyway, since vaccination seems to leave so many confused minds here, this is a nice link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
You see, the more people AROUND you are vaccinated, the less likely YOU are to get infected.
And, to inform you:
"The global eradication of smallpox was certified, based on intense verification activities in countries, by a commission of eminent scientists on 9 December 1979 and subsequently endorsed by the World Health Assembly on 8 May 1980"
"The last cases of smallpox in the world occurred in an outbreak of two cases (one of which was fatal) in Birmingham, England in 1978"
So folks, if vaccine is so bad that you'd skip it and try your luck, trust in fate, or just the lord, this is pox, and NB, survivor:
(WARNING, IMAGE IS DISTURBING)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Child_with_Smallpox_Bangladesh.jpg/393px-Child_with_Smallpox_Bangladesh.jpg)
I'm happy about my vaccination which left me with a little scar....
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Healthy immune system > any vaccination.
But there is no profit for any pharma manufacturers when nobody gets sick anymore oops :neener: that would mean trillions of profits lost and you wonder why there is never a real cure for anything, just things that keep you going a little longer, very expensive usually.
All I can say every year the same people I know get their seasonal flu shot and a week later they are sick with the flu for a week or more. I haven't had a shot in years and never gotten anything worse then a cold.
But go on keep throwing your money at them in the false promise that you will be cured, healed or whatever.
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Healthy immune system > any vaccination.
All I can say every year the same people I know get their seasonal flu shot and a week later they are sick with the flu for a week or more. I haven't had a shot in years and never gotten anything worse then a cold.
ya know? this is a large part of my reasoning for not doing any vaccinations.
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its true that the exact cause of GBS is unknown............. the exact cause of lung cancer in smokers is also unknown.......
when the CDC (not me or some other source), these are the people who are running the show on the vaccine, when they themselves openly say that 3000-6000 cases of GBS are occurring without any relation to the flu vaccine AN ADDITIONAL 3000 comes as a result of the vaccine...... this seems pretty obvious to me
absolutely you could get GBS without taking the vaccine.......... the majority of GBS victims in fact are not as a result of the vaccine.......... but CLEARLY when the CDC says 3000 people suffer GBS as a result of the vaccine which is 1/3 of total sufferers........ then that tells me theres reason for concern on my behalf
using US statistics released by the CDC (the only "reliable" source in the US by your standards)
so of the median average 12.5% who will get the flu (on average between 5% and 20% are estimated to have the flu each year of roughly 300Million people), thats an average of 37.5Million people who get the flu each year...... gives us the following
37500000 people get the flu
200000 get sick enough to be hospitalized thats about .005%
36000 die as a result of flu related illnesses thats less than .001%
so statistically speaking I would absolutely agree with you that a higher percentage will die from the flu vs develop GBS......... but statistically speaking both are very rare to begin with (.001%)....... more people will die this year from Alzheimers
which brings me back to my first statement: people develop lung cancer who have never smoked before, yet because of the increased risk among smokers we attribute that to a leading cause.......... people also develop GBS every year without any tie to the flu vaccine, but theres a certain number (1/3) of GBS sufferers which can be tied to the flu vaccine......... is this a very small percentage of people who receive the vaccine? absolutely....... but so is the number of people who will have serious flu related illness without a vaccine
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Ye Cap1 but the same people keep going back each year to get their shot. Makes you wonder doesnt it.
It all comes down to profit.
Whats the worst that can happen to someone who sells vaccines and medicine? Everybody is healthy and doesnt gets sick anymore.
Whats the best that can happen to someone who sells....? A pandemic, preferably a global one ;)
Good thing a few months before this outbreak the WHO revised their criterias on what counts as a pandemic, they took out that a significant number of deaths have to occur for a virus to be classified as a pandemic. Under the old rules this "swine" flu would not have been even classified as a pandemic.
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Fishu, Your response leads me to believe you have more than layman's knowledge. Did you go to medical school?
No, I'm only following the news and seeking information to fill the blanks like the rest of you. Although I was good at biology thoughout the school years, especially interested in microbiology (cells, viruses, bacterias etc.), and biology was part of my main subjects of matriculation examination. However at school it never went enough in depth for what I would have preferred.
Microbiology and genetics studies would have interested me, if it wouldn't been for really poor chance of employament after graduation. Doctors would be guaranteed to get employed, but I'm not so interested in that regardless of my grades (I'll rather be a lawyer; humanity is overrated, tee hee). Of course I'm still curious of the developments in microbiology, genetics and treatments.
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But there is no profit for any pharma manufacturers when nobody gets sick anymore oops :neener: that would mean trillions of profits lost and you wonder why there is never a real cure for anything, just things that keep you going a little longer, very expensive usually.
There will always be market for medicine and it doesn't require an artificially created demand. People will never be that healthy that they could just ignore microbis. Neither will any medicine cure everything once and for all. Think of that when you next time take a pain pill for a plain headache or after a dentist appointment.
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Quick someone find out where Dr Jonas Salk is buried, I am quite sure he would be spinning in his grave ....
:old:
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Go on Wiki and put the words "Spanish Flu" in the search string. It will explain to you why the Swine Flu is of concern.
As I mentioned before, there is little news of mutation, so today it's a Flu as far as I know. Very catchy, but just a flu. But the 1918 one was very related and this is what happened:
"The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much deadlier than the first. The first wave had resembled typical flu epidemics; those most at risk were the sick and elderly, while younger, healthier people recovered easily. But in August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone and the United States,[41] the virus had mutated to a much deadlier form. This has been attributed to the circumstances of the First World War.[42] In civilian life evolutionary pressures favour a mild strain: those who get really sick stay home, and those mildly ill continue with their lives, go to work and go shopping, preferentially spreading the mild strain. In the trenches the evolutionary pressures were reversed: soldiers with a mild strain remained where they were, while the severely ill were sent on crowded trains to crowded field hospitals, spreading the deadlier virus. So the second wave began and flu quickly spread around the world again.[43] It was the same flu, in that most of those who recovered from first-wave infections were immune, but it was now far more deadly, and the most vulnerable people were those who were like the soldiers in the trenches—young, otherwise healthy adults.[44] Consequently, during modern pandemics, health officials pay attention when the virus reaches places with social upheaval, looking for deadlier strains of the virus.[43]"
The ones who already had it are the lucky ones, for the immunity is there. Another way to get immunity is by vaccination, which will strain your immune system, just not as much as the flu. This is how it works.
I must say, I am baffled by the hostile attitude against vaccination in general on this board, and cannot explain it with any other term than sheer ignorance.
Oh, by the way, we do have a biologist on this board. Biology is also a hobby of mine, as well as diagnosis of various diseases as well as vaccinations of lifestock is a part of my job.
We covered pox here. How many of you bitten by a rabid dog would take the chance and decline treatment. (rabis shot is basically a vaccination since it will give the body an immediate respond for a threat that comes later). Ready to try your luck on that one?
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Think of that when you next time take a pain pill for a plain headache or after a dentist appointment.
Sorry to disappoint you but I never take pills for headaches or dentist appointments.
There is an accupressure point on your body, when triggered it releases the same substance that is in aspirin, in short youve been buying a substance that your body produces naturally.
But keep on believing that newspaper actually print the truth and are objective.
I will leave you with a quote from John Swinton chief editorial writer at The New York Times in the 1860s and a writer and editor for The New York Sun from 1875 to 1883.
"There is no such thing, at this stage of the world’s history in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dare write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my papers, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
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Healthy immune system > any vaccination.
Wrong.
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I don't believe in news papers without reservation. I've corrected them one time too many, like basically rewriting an article.
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I guess that means the argumentation is over since it's gone to direct insults in the lack of a better response.
I take it that you gracefully stepped down on the challenge, thank you.
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I must say, I am baffled by the hostile attitude against vaccination in general on this board, and cannot explain it with any other term than sheer ignorance.
I'm not really that baffled by the magnitude of this, not even surprised. I'm frustrated however.
All this anti-vaccination nonsense is quite convincing since alot of people are on it and it's an easy choice to go along with the mass. You don't really seem lose much more than at most probably a week or two of your life on sick leave. And that's right after there was this dreadful killer virus which turned out to be a damn flu! What a relief. Now there's information that the flu vaccine is this and that along with lots of people telling you so. So you might ponder what to do, whether to believe the others or not and perhaps take a risk of getting sick by the vaccine or just maybe contract the flu - you'll live and you can safely ignore all the supposed risks of the vaccine, since who knows, maybe they were right.
People by nature prefer to be on the safe side and even a hint of fear can affect rational decision making.
MrRiplEy[H],
Have fun with the swine flu and whatever future viruses there will be for there will be many to come. It isn't my life, but just make sure you stay at home when you get sick, at least until the next year. I would much prefer to have my shot before some working hero of the year spreads the virus to all the fellow commuters and co-workers, including me. The vaccine is not witchcraft.
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Wrong.
Oh look what I found
I caught and was clinically diagnosed with H1N1, but barely developed any symptoms. I suspect that is probably due to being exposed to the virus while a fetus, to which my doctor also agrees.
So your immune system worked that time without any vaccination, why shouldnt it now?
Look theres two sides to each coin, if you think it will help go for the shot, if you have concerns like me don't.
However if your government has to give the manufacturers legal immunity and Mister Obama's daughters don't get the vaccine my alarm bells start ringing.
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However if your government has to give the manufacturers legal immunity and Mister Obama's daughters don't get the vaccine my alarm bells start ringing.
The last I heard Sasha and Malia did get the vaccine already last week.
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The last I heard Sasha and Malia did get the vaccine already last week.
the big question is.....did they get the very same shots that "normal" people get/? :noid
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Oh look what I found
So your immune system worked that time without any vaccination, why shouldnt it now?
Look theres two sides to each coin, if you think it will help go for the shot, if you have concerns like me don't.
However if your government has to give the manufacturers legal immunity and Mister Obama's daughters don't get the vaccine my alarm bells start ringing.
Yes, I caught it. Yes I fought it off, from prior exposure to the specific flu virus that this originated from. This is exactly how a vaccine works, btw. (FYI, I found out later that my mother was immunized during the 1974 outbreak while she was carrying me, in late 1974, so I also had conferred immunity through that vaccination) I would not have even gone to the doctor when I got sick this time, except it was required and payed for by my employer for anyone showing signs of flu.
Look at it this way...
Every time you get sick, no matter what the vector, you start to die. At some point, your immune system either wins or it loses. It spends time and energy looking for the answer to the puzzle of what is attacking you, while the live virus has free reign and replicates pretty much unchecked. If it finds a way to successfully identify and counterattack a virus, you start getting better. Otherwise, even a new common cold will kill you. By getting a vaccination, you show your immune system the virus's plan of attack.
I did not get vaccinated once I got a chance to see the genetics and origins of H1N1 that is currently circulating. Doing so would not have provided me with any more protection, as I've already been exposed. I would highly recommend those that are in that age range just under mine, to be vaccinated, due to the fact they have not been exposed to this flu. A flu which is a mutation of the 1916 bug, BTW. Play with fire all you want.
Luckily H1N1 overpowers other flu viruses, and is not prone to any antigenic drift that will confer higher virulence from another flu it meets. I know two virologists that are still privately scared of H5n1, "Bird Flu". It has an incredible knack, unlike H1N1, for re assortment mutations. One of them told me not two months ago, that "the table is set for H5n1. It's really just a matter of time until it finds a communicable flu to make it airborne." Both were also concerned, that if it happened during this current H1N1 outbreak, any H5N1 mutation could go unnoticed until it was past too late.
Also, both of the Obama children have been vaccinated.
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Healthy immune system > any vaccination.
Really? How about in the context of polio?
I'm beginning to categorize in my mind two different issues.
- Developments and advancements in medicine including treatment and prevention of illness.
- Developments in medical policy, influenced by government, pharmaceutical companies, and insurance
In the first case, I am hopeful and eager to trust.
In the second case I have become quite cynical.
In the context of H1N1, my thinking is almost all in the second catagory.
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Really? How about in the context of polio?
I'm beginning to categorize in my mind two different issues.
- Developments and advancements in medicine including treatment and prevention of illness.
- Developments in medical policy, influenced by government, pharmaceutical companies, and insurance
In the first case, I am hopeful and eager to trust.
In the second case I have become quite cynical.
In the context of H1N1, my thinking is almost all in the second catagory.
Funny. Nobody can be right in your estimation. I would imagine that if the government does nothing, then you'd be screaming bloody murder about it. But, since the CDC is taking proactive steps to contain what has killed more people in the history of this species.....then it's all a SHAM-WOW. :noid
Just an FYI. There has been one LABORATORY CONFIRMED fatality of a child attributed to every other flu strain out there (United States).
There have been 130 LABORATORY CONFIRMED pediatric fatalities by H1N1 in the U.S. in the same time period. So, No, this isn't your usual flu, and people should stop looking at is as such.
Lab confirmation is only done sporadically due to how much effort and time it takes to rule out every possible causal agent of death, and true figures are a function of an unknown exponent. Meaning that for each confirmed case, there are X numbers of cases that go unreported or mis-diagnosed.
Generally, this exponential function is usually a power of ten or higher. What the CDC uses is dependent on their methods, but they start going bonkers at around 40 or so cases lab confirmed. If you'll remember when this started in Mexico, a few hundred people had already died, and there were only 5 or 6 confirmed by lab.
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Whatever, Moray. You missed my point.
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Funny. Nobody can be right in your estimation. I would imagine that if the government does nothing, then you'd be screaming bloody murder about it. But, since the CDC is taking proactive steps to contain what has killed more people in the history of this species.....then it's all a SHAM-WOW. :noid
Just an FYI. There has been one LABORATORY CONFIRMED fatality of a child attributed to every other flu strain out there (United States).
There have been 130 LABORATORY CONFIRMED pediatric fatalities by H1N1 in the U.S. in the same time period. So, No, this isn't your usual flu, and people should stop looking at is as such.
Lab confirmation is only done sporadically due to how much effort and time it takes to rule out every possible causal agent of death, and true figures are a function of an unknown exponent. Meaning that for each confirmed case, there are X numbers of cases that go unreported or mis-diagnosed.
Generally, this exponential function is usually a power of ten or higher. What the CDC uses is dependent on their methods, but they start going bonkers at around 40 or so cases lab confirmed. If you'll remember when this started in Mexico, a few hundred people had already died, and there were only 5 or 6 confirmed by lab.
to try to compare H1N1 deaths among children to normal flu this year and say its more dangerous than normal flu is absolutely absurd......
do you know how many children died from the 'normal' flu last year and how many died from H1N1..... or the year before or the year before ......... the 2003-2004 flu season was especially hard on children.......... 152 child deaths (zero with H1N1)
every year there is a different strain that is more prevalent than the rest.......and different strains seem to effect specific groups of people differently..... this year it happens to be H1N1...... it hasnt been H1N1 for quite a few years
just like the 'bird' flu a few years ago....... its scary because its different.......... not because its worse.....
Edit: also where exactly are you getting your numbers from? the CDC (you know the people who are in charge of the numbers) reported earlier TODAY that there have been 114 child fatalities related to H1N1