Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Nemisis on February 15, 2010, 01:14:44 PM
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In real life, AA couldn't keep planes away from ships, but in the game, going within icon range is going to get you killed.
I wish we could have realist sights for the 5" guns. Maybe modle the inside of the gun sponson or turret, and have a vision slit, instead of the red crosshairs with uber zooming capabilities we have now.
Just something to think about.
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One thing about AAA historically is that it was shooting at dozens of aircraft. Simple weight of numbers guaranteed that SOMETHING would get through. In the game you're often looking at small numbers of aircraft, often only a handful at a time.
That being said, AAA on the boats IS a bit insane.
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its alot more accurate but there is alot less of it..
imagine if there was a battleship in the CV group :O
that said, 1 guy with a little skill in the manned 5" can be hell on wheels.
I just wish it had killshooter on it, this nonesne where your fighting a con and some goob in the CV starts firing puff into your dogfight and either kills you (if he is enemy) or steals your kill (if he is friendly) is annoying. turn on killshooter for guns and make is so if you pop a friendly with puff it boots ya back to the tower.
that would aslos alleviate the ever preasent $&%#@ who decides to use you as flak target practice as you try to land on the CV with half a wing and no engine :mad:
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Saxman, 2 days ago, there was a CV up off one of our bases, and it took something like an 45 minutes to kill the CV, even with a full dar bar in the CV's sector, and the sector our base was in. AND the crusier was down, so minus 2 5" twins, and some 40mm ack.
Its a little gamey having uber ack that can zoom in on you to the point where a hit is guarenteed at 7k. All I'm asking for is to have the inside of the gun sponsons and turrets modled, and make the ack gunners actually do some work for those hundreds of kills. Have it so they have to use the vision slit (or whatever they used) to aim.
And for using the HE shells, maybe add a range finder, and have it function like the bomb sight calibration. The longer you calibrate, the more precise reading you will get (to within .5k). And to offset the increased ease of gunning, they have to type in the range they want to have the gun set to, and let them have a limited traverse and elevation, so they can give the target some lead.
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I wish we could have realist sights for the 5" guns. Maybe modle the inside of the gun sponson or turret, and have a vision slit, instead of the red crosshairs with uber zooming capabilities we have now.
Just something to think about.
I would agree with a more realistic sight on the 5 inch guns keeping with & staying in line with how they changed the manned acks to a sight that I intially hated but have grown to like it a lot. :aok
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For the '45 task group we have, we should have the radar-ranged fire-control that would pwn any single aircraft that gets within 5 miles.
:t
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I love sitting in 5 inchers blasting away guys who think they can fly a plane level 3.0k away from a cv!
Whenever I'm bunkered down in a 5 incher, I understand it's just a delay, eventually the CV will get down. The CV isn't going to resupply, buildings aren't going to pop right before you get it down. If a CV is under heavy attack, it'll go down, it might take 5 minutes, or it might take 45. Your chances of actually taking a field if you have full friendly and enemy dar bars is very low. A few B-38s, a few hits from a short battery, or a kamikaze JU-88, and it's all over.
If the CV is under heavy attack, your best bet is to turn it away and get the heck out of there, but most people won't do that. So, I get into a gun and laugh when I shoot the same guy down for the 5th time as he's trying the exact same attack again. I do that until eventually the ship is down, then suddenly people think it's safe to fly within range of the CV and I get more kills as spitfires lazily coast 1k away from me.
:rofl
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I love sitting in 5 inchers blasting away guys who think they can fly a plane level 3.0k away from a cv!
Whenever I'm bunkered down in a 5 incher, I understand it's just a delay, eventually the CV will get down. The CV isn't going to resupply, buildings aren't going to pop right before you get it down. If a CV is under heavy attack, it'll go down, it might take 5 minutes, or it might take 45. Your chances of actually taking a field if you have full friendly and enemy dar bars is very low. A few B-38s, a few hits from a short battery, or a kamikaze JU-88, and it's all over.
If the CV is under heavy attack, your best bet is to turn it away and get the heck out of there, but most people won't do that. So, I get into a gun and laugh when I shoot the same guy down for the 5th time as he's trying the exact same attack again. I do that until eventually the ship is down, then suddenly people think it's safe to fly within range of the CV and I get more kills as spitfires lazily coast 1k away from me.
:rofl
I kill CV's regularly...until they figure me out. :neener: :rofl Once the Jigs-up and a good 5" is in the seat, I just go find another one. :banana:
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For the '45 task group we have, we should have the radar-ranged fire-control that would pwn any single aircraft that gets within 5 miles.
:t
Don't forget the proximity fuses on the shells.
ack-ack
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In real life, AA couldn't keep planes away from ships, but in the game, going within icon range is going to get you killed.
In game, CV triple-A doesn't keep planes away either.
ack-ack
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I sometimes think you guys play a different game. With manned 5" it is virtually impossible to hit anything but idiots who come in low and straight into the ship. Have you guys ever even tried to hit buffs at 10K or 15K with the 5"? CVs in this game have zero probability of surviving a single set of bombers at anything above 10K. And you want them to be easier to sink? Sometimes I suspect the real point of such posts is "This is a flight sim and I should not be shot down by anything but another plane- get rid of ships, GVs, and manned ack."
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I sometimes think you guys play a different game. With manned 5" it is virtually impossible to hit anything but idiots who come in low and straight into the ship. Have you guys ever even tried to hit buffs at 10K or 15K with the 5"? CVs in this game have zero probability of surviving a single set of bombers at anything above 10K. And you want them to be easier to sink? Sometimes I suspect the real point of such posts is "This is a flight sim and I should not be shot down by anything but another plane- get rid of ships, GVs, and manned ack."
I kill em on a regular basis higher than that.. the probability is not zero.. in fact, for 1 set, i think the bombers have probability of surviving closer to 0% than the cv, especially if the radar is up and the 5" gunner knows you're coming.. the problems arise when you finish off one set of bombers, and theres another set (or 5 more sets) already on top of you -- or the cv has turned and taken away the shot
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In game, CV triple-A doesn't keep planes away either.
ack-ack
Not indefinitely, but it can keep people away past what was realistic. We have hoards afraid to go close to a CV for fear of getting shot down. Really, just taking away the uber zoom would be enough for me, the rest is just eye candy.
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We have hoards afraid to go close to a CV for fear of getting shot down.
We have hoards afraid to get shot down period. That's why they're in a hoard.
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Why is everyone so down on hoards? Its the same thing as massing armor for an attack. Why attack with 2 tanks, when you can attack with 5, or 9, or 13? Same with aircraft, more numbers means a higher chance of the town going down before cap is lost.
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5" guns do almost nothing to stop anyone with the patience to gain a little altitude from sinking a CV. All they do is aggrivate the people who want to enjoy a good furball. Some of the best fights in the game these days are between a CV and a the base its saddled up against... somewhat spoiled by the gamey 5"er.
I say make the 5" 5x more deadly... but make it so they can't shoot at planes below 6k and make the CV able to take 5x the damage it can now.
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Why is everyone so down on hoards? Its the same thing as massing armor for an attack. Why attack with 2 tanks, when you can attack with 5, or 9, or 13? Same with aircraft, more numbers means a higher chance of the town going down before cap is lost.
Because when people apply a little skill, it doesn't take 5, 9, or 13.
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Yeah the ack is tough but are we taking into account that the ack historically was radar controlled and used the proximity fuze. Very effective. Hence the destroyer pickets off Okinawa that used radar controlled 5" ack to tackle the japanese planes inbound to the fleet carriers. Can anyone tell me if flak from CV can damaged friendly planes as well? I mean according to Murphys Law friendly fire works both ways!!!!
BigKev
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We have hoards afraid to get shot down period. That's why they're in a hoard.
Exactly.
Since we have Mk 12 5"/38 caliber Dual Purpose guns, here is your "historical sight"
(http://www.radiofreeid.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/SightsR.C.jpg)
Not much difference than what we have. BUT, implement this HTC because the "tunnel vision" will cripple the Manned Guns. So yeah, give em what they want.
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I will sink a cv about 90% of the time with an alt of no more than 5.5k at full speed. by the time the 5 in gunners open up on me, I would have already dropped eggs and start evasive maneuvers. all 3 of my buffs will survive about 80% of the time with just slight damage. I am more concerned with somebody turning cv at just the right time than of the gunners. then again at 5.5 alt I will most likely hit the cv with at least a couple of eggs. on fiters, its another story, its ridiculously accurate up to 10k but not on buffs, go figure that one.
semp
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Yeah the ack is tough but are we taking into account that the ack historically was radar controlled and used the proximity fuze. Very effective. Hence the destroyer pickets off Okinawa that used radar controlled 5" ack to tackle the japanese planes inbound to the fleet carriers. Can anyone tell me if flak from CV can damaged friendly planes as well? I mean according to Murphys Law friendly fire works both ways!!!!
BigKev
yes, I have been hit by friendly CV Ack, mainly when attacking buffs.
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Thanks I will keep the friendly ack in mind next time out.
BigKev
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In real life, AA couldn't keep planes away from ships, but in the game, going within icon range is going to get you killed.
I wish we could have realist sights for the 5" guns. Maybe modle the inside of the gun sponson or turret, and have a vision slit, instead of the red crosshairs with uber zooming capabilities we have now.
Just something to think about.
If you knew how the gun sights worked for the Mark 12 5"/38 caliber gun (standard US Navy 5" gun during WW2 and beyond), then you would realize that the sights we have now is the best compromise for game play reasons.
Basically, the current system simulates the job that took 15 to 27 men to do onboard a US Navy ship.
ack-ack
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Exactly.
Since we have Mk 12 5"/38 caliber Dual Purpose guns, here is your "historical sight"
(http://www.radiofreeid.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/SightsR.C.jpg)
Not much difference than what we have. BUT, implement this HTC because the "tunnel vision" will cripple the Manned Guns. So yeah, give em what they want.
If that is a correct image on that gun site I would say make it that way in the game.
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Not indefinitely, but it can keep people away past what was realistic.
Please, tell us what was 'realistic' since you seem to know. Enlighten us.
ack-ack
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Forgive me sir, I was unaware of the fact that they were radar controlled. But unless only 1 in 10 or so IJN planes made it through the ack, then the kill ratios are a little high.
Because when people apply a little skill, it doesn't take 5, 9, or 13.
So your answer is that if you play good, you don't need more than a handfull of people to take a defended base? That seems a little unfair. Its like telling a newb to "play better" when he's asking for help. Not every player has the skill required to beat 2 opponents in a fight, so (in my opinion) taking the guys you can get to follow is fine.
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If that is a correct image on that gun site I would say make it that way in the game.
CV's wouldn't stand a chance in hell if that site was implemented.
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I sometimes think you guys play a different game. With manned 5" it is virtually impossible to hit anything but idiots who come in low and straight into the ship. Have you guys ever even tried to hit buffs at 10K or 15K with the 5"? CVs in this game have zero probability of surviving a single set of bombers at anything above 10K. And you want them to be easier to sink? Sometimes I suspect the real point of such posts is "This is a flight sim and I should not be shot down by anything but another plane- get rid of ships, GVs, and manned ack."
-10 points IMO, you're way off. a good skipper who keeps a good eye on the CV can keep her out of trouble with any high bombers. I've done it many times. One of the best maneuvers is to turn into the bombers at the last 1Kto shorten their closing rate. Ive never been hit doing this, all other things being equal. :salute
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Why is everyone so down on hoards? Its the same thing as massing armor for an attack. Why attack with 2 tanks, when you can attack with 5, or 9, or 13? Same with aircraft, more numbers means a higher chance of the town going down before cap is lost.
Not all players are base takers, and like you, they wish everyone thought like they do. Some simply like the 1:1 challenge between 2 or maybe 4 tanks slowly trying to outwit each other, see the enemy first, being sharp enough for the one-shot-kill, & not worrying about bomb****s. I can get some fun either way, but when the odds are 10:1 and it starts obviously going bad, no skill matters and no possibility of keeping the base, I'm not enjoying the game, & that's why we're here right? :joystick:
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For the '45 task group we have, we should have the radar-ranged fire-control that would pwn any single aircraft that gets within 5 miles.
:t
thats what we have already - radar ranged, proxy fused. the only figure i've seen for the effectiveness of such a system (ie. the best fire control system in use in WWII) was about one kill per 1,000 shells fired. Ive lost the link but it was from a USN document. I suspect our AH 5"ers are magnitudes more effective than this. the very best WWII systems could not own any aircraft within 5 miles ...
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thats what we have already - radar ranged, proxy fused. the only figure i've seen for the effectiveness of such a system (ie. the best fire control system in use in WWII) was about one kill per 1,000 shells fired. Ive lost the link but it was from a USN document. I suspect our AH 5"ers are magnitudes more effective than this. the very best WWII systems could not own any aircraft within 5 miles ...
You are correct about the 1 kill per 1,000 rounds fired using the Mark 37 Gun Fire Control System.
ack-ack
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had to get one right eventually :D
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Not all players are base takers, and like you, they wish everyone thought like they do. Some simply like the 1:1 challenge between 2 or maybe 4 tanks slowly trying to outwit each other, see the enemy first, being sharp enough for the one-shot-kill, & not worrying about bomb****s. I can get some fun either way, but when the odds are 10:1 and it starts obviously going bad, no skill matters and no possibility of keeping the base, I'm not enjoying the game, & that's why we're here right?
Of course its not fun, nothing over 3:1 is fun IMO. So long as you have a figting chance, I'm still having fun. Once, my old squad and I (about 8-9 guys) held a base for an hour from something around 25 guys; I'm fine as long as its not a vulch fest, and when you DO get up 30 guys jump you.
I was talking about getting enough guys together so that a few guys in M4's firing from cover won't stop you dead in your tracks.
But we're off topic, point is that we fire much less than 1000 rounds per kill (most of us anyway :devil), which means something is off here.
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But we're off topic, point is that we fire much less than 1000 rounds per kill (most of us anyway :devil), which means something is off here.
nothing is off, in RL they didnt hang out 4k from a Taskforce to fight lifters. They came in hit the ships and left. And a Fleet
taskforce had many many more ships than we have.
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err yeah it is off. way off. I'd expect a chance of damage if I'm level 200mph, 5k, 4000yds from a large battery of AA guns, I dont expect to get nailed instantly while manouvering at 350mph, 20k, 6 miles out from the same battery ...
to say nothing about EW, MW and AvA/scenarios/snapshot from those years - the chances of getting hit by ack by those systems was negligible, unless you were straight and level for 10 miles+, part of a large formation of buffs and they knew you were coming.
anyone know how many fighters were downed by puffy ack in WWII while flying at med/high alts? I'm guessing hardly any.
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anyone know how many fighters were downed by puffy ack in WWII while flying at med/high alts? I'm guessing hardly any.
More fighters were downed by AAA than by other fighters in WW2.
ack-ack
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sure, but specifically by fused/proximity effect (puffy) at med/high alt. I know lots of fighters were lost in ground attack roles to AA fire.
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In real life, AA couldn't keep planes away from ships, but in the game, going within icon range is going to get you killed.
I wish we could have realist sights for the 5" guns. Maybe modle the inside of the gun sponson or turret, and have a vision slit, instead of the red crosshairs with uber zooming capabilities we have now.
Just something to think about.
I agree. I am constantly saying that WWII ack was very inaccurate. Those aircraft that you see in WWII documentaries have been hit by I wanna say a combination of, and do not quote me on this, 20+ 5" guns and over 100 smaller calibre AA guns before they were either blown to pieces or lost vital parts (wing, PW, etc). And I do hate when your spanking a bunch of dudes and like whats his name higher in the post said, CAPTAIN ACK ACK is sitting there killing everyone. Preach on Nemisis! :rock
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IDK why, but I thought we were talking about radar controlled, proximity fused 5" AAA, not German 88mm altitude fused AAA.
Big difference there, but you are right as far as you were talking about.
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you're the first person to mention 88s ... :headscratch:
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you're the first person to mention 88s ... :headscratch:
LOL :lol
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As far as I'm aware, the germans used FlaK 18 88mm guns or FlaK 38 105mm guns, not 5" guns. But mostly my point was that the germans and Japanese didn't have working proximity fuses.
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Auto puffy heap more deadly than manned. If I'm tooling at 15k at 300 mph and accidentally fly over cv....odds are about 50/50 that my mission will shortly end in a ball of flame and profanities. (Unless of course, I'm slow, large, bombers. Then I've naught to worry about)
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When you consider the average WW2 DESRON was 6 ships, usually Fletchers (5 barrels/ship) but sometimes Sumners (6 barrels/ship), and within that TG was a CV, usually at least 1-2 cruisers, and later in the war, a CLAA or even a BB, the amount of ack we get is not overly heavy.
Somebody do the math on an Iowa or SoDak class BB, and a late-war Atlanta class CLAA....that's some sick AA.
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When you consider the average WW2 DESRON was 6 ships, usually Fletchers (5 barrels/ship) but sometimes Sumners (6 barrels/ship), and within that TG was a CV, usually at least 1-2 cruisers, and later in the war, a CLAA or even a BB, the amount of ack we get is not overly heavy.
Somebody do the math on an Iowa or SoDak class BB, and a late-war Atlanta class CLAA....that's some sick AA.
Iowa Class BB's:
- 20 - 5in/38 cal Mk12's (IIRC in 10 twin turrets and 4 Mk 37 fire control systems.)
- 80 - 40mm Bofors
- 49 - 20mm Bofors
SD Class BB's:
- 20 - 5in/38 cal Mk12's in 10 twin turrets (the SD itself had 8 and for the subsequent ships they found room for 2 more on the SD as well, IIRC).
- 68 - 40mm Bofors (IIRC after 1943 all 1.1in guns were moved going from a paltry 20, increased to 72 in 1944)
- 72 - 20mm Bofors
- 12 - 50 cals (removed for increased 20/40mm's)
Atlanta Class CL's:
- 16 - 5in/38 cal Mk12's (8 twin-mounts IIRC)
- 16 - 40mm Bofors (8 twin-mounts)
- 8 - 20mm Bofors
FYI going on memory.