Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: THRASH99 on February 17, 2010, 07:46:13 PM

Title: Perking Spit 16
Post by: THRASH99 on February 17, 2010, 07:46:13 PM
Spit 16 is the dweebiest plane in the game and needs to be perked badly. This plane is way to manuverable, can climb like nothing, and obviously can never stall out. Spit 16 needs to be perked double the amount of the spit 14. I'm really not to sure why the 14 is perked, even though it can't even manuver as good as the 16.(Anyone who responds to this and flys spit 16, learn something else to fly.)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: crazierthanu on February 17, 2010, 07:51:44 PM
I like the idea, but I think you could of worded it a little better, I don't think you know what you just started....  :rofl
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: JunkyII on February 17, 2010, 07:55:36 PM
Subject has been brought up before........but your right +1
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: whels on February 17, 2010, 08:10:00 PM
Learn to fight your fight not the 16s.  Its easy to kill like any other plane when you use
you plane correctly.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: lyric1 on February 17, 2010, 08:15:09 PM
No such thing as a dweeb plane :old:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Tec on February 17, 2010, 08:16:26 PM
The 14 is a monster, the 16 is a minor annoyance. 
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on February 17, 2010, 08:19:40 PM
The 14 is a monster, the 16 is a minor annoyance. 
agreed. 14 a freak of nature. 16 just an undead zombie vampire... although the 14 got a bad flatspin. and i agree that the 16 with a good pilot is a death machine
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: MachFly on February 17, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
The 14 is a monster, the 16 is a minor annoyance. 

agreed. 14 a freak of nature. 16 just an undead zombie vampire... although the 14 got a bad flatspin. and i agree that the 16 with a good pilot is a death machine

 :aok :aok :aok

P.S. read my sig
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on February 17, 2010, 08:46:09 PM
Hey Thrash, maybe its just that you suck so much that you cannot defeat Spitfires  :neener:

Spitfires with good pilots are the equivalent of the Grim Reaper. You just need to learn their habits and fight accordingly. The Spit 16 should not be perked for the same reason the P-38 J and the ME-109 aren't, because while they may be good. It takes a pro to get the most from them.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 17, 2010, 08:53:50 PM
Spit 16 is the dweebiest plane in the game and needs to be perked badly. This plane is way to manuverable, can climb like nothing, and obviously can never stall out. Spit 16 needs to be perked double the amount of the spit 14. I'm really not to sure why the 14 is perked, even though it can't even manuver as good as the 16.(Anyone who responds to this and flys spit 16, learn something else to fly.)

Translation:  I'm not very good at this game and get shot down by players flying the Spitfire Mk XVI a lot.  Since I do not possess the skill necessary to properly fight and win an engagement against said Spitfire, I wish it to be perked so I wouldn't get shot down as much.  I'll post this as a wish to mask the true intent of my post and use gross exaggerations that will hopefully convince others like me to support my wish to perk a plane that really doesn't need to be perked at all.  

Pretty much sums up your reasons to have it perked.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on February 17, 2010, 08:57:26 PM
Translation:  I'm not very good at this game and get shot down by players flying the Spitfire Mk XVI a lot.  Since I do not possess the skill necessary to properly fight and win an engagement against said Spitfire, I wish it to be perked so I wouldn't get shot down as much.  I'll post this as a wish to mask the true intent of my post and use gross exaggerations that will hopefully convince others like me will support my wish to perk a plane that really doesn't need to be perked at all.  

Pretty much sums up your reasons to have it perked.


ack-ack
hahaha you nailed it on the head. but the spit16 is borderline perkable still nonetheless even if you love killing them... usually when i kill a spit 16 is when im in a zeke and even then they get me if they got alt.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on February 17, 2010, 09:19:26 PM
The Spit 16e is a clipped wing Spit IXe with an American made Packard Merlin 266 instead of the Rolls Royce made Merlin 66.  Exactly the same bird.  Learn to fight em.  They are good fun to shoot down :)

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: MachFly on February 17, 2010, 09:23:15 PM
Spitfires with good pilots are the equivalent of the Grim Reaper. You just need to learn their habits and fight accordingly. The Spit 16 should not be perked for the same reason the P-38 J and the ME-109 aren't, because while they may be good. It takes a pro to get the most from them.

I agree. Most people who fly Spit16s are new and it is very easy to shoot them down even in a older/crappier airplane. It's not the airplane but the pilot that counts. I ones killed an La-7 on an I-16, it does not mean that I-16 is better, so same thing here if your getting killed by spit16s all the time it's not the airplane, it's you. Don't get me wrong though the airplane does matter but the pilot matters a lot more.


And just for the record; in my opinion spit 14 is the best airplane in AH2 and even in WW2 in general (yes better than F4U-4), you may argue with me on this but lets leave this for another thread.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on February 17, 2010, 09:40:36 PM
And just for the record; in my opinion spit 14 is the best airplane in AH2 and even in WW2 in general (yes better than F4U-4), you may argue with me on this but lets leave this for another thread.
Your opinion is unsupported by evidence.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Krupinski on February 17, 2010, 09:51:59 PM
:aok :aok :aok

P.S. read my sig

Apparently he never flew 109s!  :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on February 17, 2010, 10:02:54 PM
Apparently he never flew 109s!  :D
I've never heard of a Spitfire pilot trying the 109 and thinking it was great, but I have heard of 109 pilots trying the Spitfire and thinking it was great.

The thing Spitfire pilots can't seem to get past is the 109's cramped cockpit and the difficulty with seeing out of the 109's cockpit.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 17, 2010, 10:20:51 PM
(http://k43.pbase.com/o5/42/267742/1/68416045.wGDPMlLK.popcorn.gif)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: gyrene81 on February 17, 2010, 10:29:12 PM
I've never heard of a Spitfire pilot trying the 109 and thinking it was great, but I have heard of 109 pilots trying the Spitfire and thinking it was great.
I've seen books where 109 pilots called Spits something on the order of "woman planes"...so easy a child could fly them. Of course they probably secretly envied some of the characteristics though.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ruler2 on February 17, 2010, 10:32:59 PM
Apparently he never flew 109s!  :D
:aok
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: stealth on February 17, 2010, 10:54:10 PM
Well why perk it I fly the spit9 allot and I can shoot down a spit16 in a turn fight easily.Besides its speed and pretty good maneuverability that's it.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on February 17, 2010, 10:57:42 PM
When I was asked by Goring what I needed to win the Battle, I said I wanted Spitfires for my squadron.


Nuff said.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: oakranger on February 17, 2010, 11:02:21 PM
I've seen books where 109 pilots called Spits something on the order of "woman planes"...so easy a child could fly them. Of course they probably secretly envied some of the characteristics though.

I heard a spit pilot say, "any idiot can fly a spit".  Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e-Ra0dH-Lg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e-Ra0dH-Lg)

As far as perk the spit 16,  really do not see what the fuse is.  They have a weak ness and that is who is flying it and how they fly it.  Important thing to remeber is never get into a turn fight with them unless you are in a AC that is equal to it. 

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: guncrasher on February 17, 2010, 11:11:10 PM
most people that can fly the spit16 fly it as if it was a 109.  if you engage when they have more e, they always try rope you, so get a little more e and clip their wings. 

semp
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: HighTone on February 17, 2010, 11:12:59 PM
Spit 16 is the dweebiest plane in the game and needs to be perked badly. This plane is way to manuverable, can climb like nothing, and obviously can never stall out. Spit 16 needs to be perked double the amount of the spit 14. I'm really not to sure why the 14 is perked, even though it can't even manuver as good as the 16.(Anyone who responds to this and flys spit 16, learn something else to fly.)


The spit 16 is to slow to be perked. Stay away from the center of furballs and out of base ack and you will see alot less of them. One trick that helps...don't let them get behind you...Good Luck.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Krusty on February 17, 2010, 11:44:50 PM
Wrong... Spit16 is faster than most planes in the game, and matches most common late-war monsters. I've posted the AH comparison charts before. You can compare it yourself. http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/ 

It's equal to 90% of the late war monsters you run across all the time, including P-38s, F4us, Ki84s, etc. Even when it's slower than a plane (such as the P-51D) it can often chase them down even in prolonged tail chases (I've been on both ends, chased down ponies and been chased down in them, many times) because it's acceleration is astronomical in this game.


The plane is modeled as a UFO with no vice, other than short range.


Most folks that cry "it's slow!" never bother looking at the real stats. It almost makes 350mph on the deck. Without wep it's doing over 3500fpm climb above 10k alt (outclimbs every prop in the game by a mile, except 2 109 models and 2 spit models, which modestly match it). There's no doubt it's 10x easier to get kills in a spit16 or spit8 (FYI, only 5mph slower than the spit16!) than in most other planes. Pretending it's "only the pilot" is just ignoring facts.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on February 17, 2010, 11:54:53 PM
Wrong... Spit16 is faster than most planes in the game, and matches most common late-war monsters. I've posted the AH comparison charts before. You can compare it yourself. http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/ 

It's equal to 90% of the late war monsters you run across all the time, including P-38s, F4us, Ki84s, etc. Even when it's slower than a plane (such as the P-51D) it can often chase them down even in prolonged tail chases (I've been on both ends, chased down ponies and been chased down in them, many times) because it's acceleration is astronomical in this game.


The plane is modeled as a UFO with no vice, other than short range.


Most folks that cry "it's slow!" never bother looking at the real stats. It almost makes 350mph on the deck. Without wep it's doing over 3500fpm climb above 10k alt (outclimbs every prop in the game by a mile, except 2 109 models and 2 spit models, which modestly match it). There's no doubt it's 10x easier to get kills in a spit16 or spit8 (FYI, only 5mph slower than the spit16!) than in most other planes. Pretending it's "only the pilot" is just ignoring facts.

BUT, the majority of pilots who fly the spit are noobs. HOWEVER there are a few like myself and Bruv119 and Kazaa etc etc who can OWN in spitfires. While it is not only the pilots it does not just apply to the Spit. It applies to P-51s due to their speed and F4U's due to their acceleration and turn (in comparison to other US fighters) etc etc.

People tend to say that Spits are just planes for those who have no skill. I say they are a species of aircraft that are more beautiful and the most wonderful to fly than any other aircraft in AH2 and the real world.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Krusty on February 17, 2010, 11:57:48 PM
A button-pushing mouse (far lower than "newbies") can kill millions if his weapon is a nuke with a big red button.



By that I mean it doesn't matter if they're newbs or not, the spitfire is by far the easiest plane to get kills in, and in fact allows newbs to get kills they otherwise would not "earn" (I use the term loosely).

More pilots learn bad habits in spits than any others. Spits can do moves other planes can't dream of in this game. Also, spits shoe-horn the lesser pilots into flying nothing BUT spits, since (as you say) they're newbs and only some of them want to actually learn anything. So they keep flying the one plane they can kill with, or they get no gratification (read: no kills makes Jack a dull boy).


P.S. I think they're nice in the real world. I also think Aces High has it wrong (as with a number of planes) and the spit has no vices whatsoever in-game. I count it with the P-51s, P-39s F4us, Ki-84s, Ki-61s, that all have major issues (IMO) with their current flight model.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on February 18, 2010, 12:24:56 AM
I have experience in all spitfires and I have to say that the XVI is actually one of the worst. While it has a nice roll and good acceleration, the Spit 8 outclasses it in both Turn and if you know custom fuel burn tactics Roll. Its also quite fun to fly.

I like 38s and 109s and an occasional Pony and F4 run does not do any harm. But I would say the Spit just outclasses almost any plane in terms of usefulness, it can do anything. Hell I have been known to grab a spixteen with rockets and bomb just to kill a few panzers   :D (gotta love the rearm pad)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Bruv119 on February 18, 2010, 12:37:24 AM
perk the 16  ha!  

The spit 8 and 9 are the best in the series IMO.    

A good stick in the 16 and yes it is a wonderful ride but those are extremely rare.  Another fact is that many planes can easily out run a spit 16 and they do this all the time.  see P51, 190's,  109k4, la7 are all faster.

Until these spits get uprated boost / 150 octane fuel then they are nothing to worry about.

Man up and wish for something that doesn't make up for the lack of your own personal skill.  (i don't fly 16's either   :P)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Tec on February 18, 2010, 01:10:47 AM
 

The spit 8 and 9 are the best in the series IMO.    



This.  When I get icon on a spit and it's an 8 I pucker up a little bit.  If we perk the 16 all those pilots will just go to the 8.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on February 18, 2010, 01:34:47 AM
I heard a spit pilot say, "any idiot can fly a spit".  Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e-Ra0dH-Lg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e-Ra0dH-Lg)

As far as perk the spit 16,  really do not see what the fuse is.  They have a weak ness and that is who is flying it and how they fly it.  Important thing to remeber is never get into a turn fight with them unless you are in a AC that is equal to it. 


You realize that all of those things are endorsements of the Spitfire.  You don't want a combat plane to be hard to use.  Why make your pilots fight their own plane and the enemy at the same time?
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: WMLute on February 18, 2010, 01:59:32 AM
The spit 8 and 9 are the best in the series IMO.    

 :aok

16's never scare me.

I am far more worried by an 8 or a 9 when I run across 'em.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on February 18, 2010, 02:10:06 AM
The spit 8 and 9 are the best in the series IMO.

William Dunn (US fighter ace who flew Spitfires, P-51s, Hurricanes, and P-47s): "Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others - one that I'd rather have tied to the seat of my pants in any tactical situation - it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."

Eric Brown (RN test pilot and holder of the world record for number of types of aircraft flown): "I have flown both for many hours, and would choose the Spitfire [over the Mustang] if given a choice in a fight to the death."

Writer Jerry Scutts, quoting German pilots in his book JG 54: "The Jagflieger had to keep a wary eye out for enemy fighters, particularly Spitfires, a type JG 54's pilots had developed a particular aversion to...Pilot reflections do not, surprisingly enough, reflect over-much respect for the Mustang or Lightning, both of which the Germans reckoned their Fockes were equal to - unless they were met in substantial numbers."

Gordon Levitt, Israeli fighter pilot, comparing the Spitfire, Mustang, and Avia S-199 (Jumo-engined Bf 109), all of which the Israelis flew: "Despite the pros and cons, the Spitfire was everyone's first choice."

Karl Stein, Luftwaffe Fw 190 pilot (who served mainly on the Eastern front): "English and American aircraft appeared on the scene in those closing days of the European war. Spitfires were the most feared, then Mustangs..."

USAAF 31st FG War Diary (when transferring from Spitfires to P-51s): "Although pilots think that the P-51 is the best American fighter, they think the Spitfire VIII is the best fighter in the air."

USAAF pilot Charles McCorkle (who flew both in combat), reporting on a mock combat between a Spitfire and Mustang in 1944: "Now we could see which was the better aircraft...a Mustang and a Spit took off for a scheduled 'combat', flown by two top young flight commanders. When the fighters returned, the pilots had to agree that the Spitfire had won the joust. The Spit could easily outclimb, outaccelerate, and outmaneuver its opponent..."

So in other words HTC got the Spit's just right, it's not their fault that all your other rides are utter watermelon  ;) :lol You guys should be glad the Spit XIV is perked otherwise the Mustang crowd would be ragequitting rather fast  :rofl
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: wgmount on February 18, 2010, 02:36:06 AM
I hate the spits mainly because I can't keep the things form stalling. Yes, believe me, the spit 16 does stall and always when I'm closest to the ground so it is the first thing I collide with. Most times I stall in the thing I am trying to barrel roll. I guess it is because I am used to being upside down doing 45mph in a hog the spit just will not do it.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Kirin on February 18, 2010, 03:07:50 AM
In a 1vs1 Spixteens are quite handable if you have enough horsepower under your hood (e.g. K4 or alike). It's their sheer number in MA which turns me off. >90% of the Spits you see are 16s.

I would also like to have it perked - along with other late war monsters to freshen up MA but that's an old, old discussion long before EW and MW were introduced. Just a small fee so you have to work 'a little' for them...   :bolt:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on February 18, 2010, 03:14:50 AM
I would also like to have it perked - along with other late war monsters to freshen up MA but that's an old, old discussion long before EW and MW were introduced. Just a small fee so you have to work 'a little' for them...   :bolt:

Alrite but then I want 150 octane fuel for the VIII and IX along with different wing/tip configs  :aok Or give us a real late war Spit like the XXI  :lol
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 18, 2010, 03:35:03 AM
Wrong... Spit16 is faster than most planes in the game, and matches most common late-war monsters. I've posted the AH comparison charts before. You can compare it yourself. http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/ 

It's equal to 90% of the late war monsters you run across all the time, including P-38s, F4us, Ki84s, etc. Even when it's slower than a plane (such as the P-51D) it can often chase them down even in prolonged tail chases (I've been on both ends, chased down ponies and been chased down in them, many times) because it's acceleration is astronomical in this game.


The plane is modeled as a UFO with no vice, other than short range.


Most folks that cry "it's slow!" never bother looking at the real stats. It almost makes 350mph on the deck. Without wep it's doing over 3500fpm climb above 10k alt (outclimbs every prop in the game by a mile, except 2 109 models and 2 spit models, which modestly match it). There's no doubt it's 10x easier to get kills in a spit16 or spit8 (FYI, only 5mph slower than the spit16!) than in most other planes. Pretending it's "only the pilot" is just ignoring facts.

Yet, no one has been able to present any sort of evidence that it unbalances the game and needs to be perked.  I wonder why that is...?


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on February 18, 2010, 03:48:45 AM
Alrite but then I want 150 octane fuel for the VIII and IX along with different wing/tip configs  :aok Or give us a real late war Spit like the XXI  :lol
The Spitfire F.Mk IX never ran on 150 octane and I have never seen evidence that the Spitfire Mk VIII did either.  The Spitfire LF.Mk IXe, which we have in AH under the name "Spitfire Mk XVI", did run on 150 octane in some cases.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on February 18, 2010, 04:22:59 AM
The Spitfire F.Mk IX never ran on 150 octane and I have never seen evidence that the Spitfire Mk VIII did either.  The Spitfire LF.Mk IXe, which we have in AH under the name "Spitfire Mk XVI", did run on 150 octane in some cases.
To be honest Karnak I couldn't care less  :cheers: but the fact is if you perk the 16 there would be no unperked late war Spit in the game.
So they would have to unperk the XIV but thats just wishful thinking, oh imagine the rivers of tears of all the runstangs and ho 'n run 190's that suddenly have nowhere to go  :lol

Addition for Karnak  ;)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/engines-cleared-for-150-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Bruv119 on February 18, 2010, 05:07:31 AM
In a 1vs1 Spixteens are quite handable if you have enough horsepower under your hood (e.g. K4 or alike). It's their sheer number in MA which turns me off. >90% of the Spits you see are 16s.

I would also like to have it perked - along with other late war monsters to freshen up MA but that's an old, old discussion long before EW and MW were introduced. Just a small fee so you have to work 'a little' for them...   :bolt:

as we have pointed out the 8 and 9 are the better dogfighters (turning) you perk the 16 and what will the noob spit pilots fly?  they will choose the next best thing of course and that would be the 8 and the 9.   

don't hate the plane hate the player.   Infact Bruv119 should be perked!   :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on February 18, 2010, 05:10:11 AM
Infact Bruv119 should be perked!   :D
:aok ;) :lol
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ghosth on February 18, 2010, 05:45:48 AM
Spit 8's and 9's are the ones to watch for. Now those guys know how to fly, been around long enough to not want to be tagged with the dweeb plane moniker. So they fly the spit 8 and the 9. 

16's its just a matter of getting behind them once and watch them panic.
And considering they mostly have poor SA its not that hard to slip in on them.

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: waystin2 on February 18, 2010, 06:50:53 AM
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/waystin2/nope_logo2.gif)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Kazaa on February 18, 2010, 07:35:17 AM
HTC needs to stop tarting about with WWI and geif us the Spitfire LF Mk XVIe with a bubble canopy and the option of 25lbs boost, clipped of course.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: HighTone on February 18, 2010, 07:53:04 AM
Wrong... Spit16 is faster than most planes in the game, and matches most common late-war monsters. I've posted the AH comparison charts before. You can compare it yourself. http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/ 

It's equal to 90% of the late war monsters you run across all the time, including P-38s, F4us, Ki84s, etc. Even when it's slower than a plane (such as the P-51D) it can often chase them down even in prolonged tail chases (I've been on both ends, chased down ponies and been chased down in them, many times) because it's acceleration is astronomical in this game.


The plane is modeled as a UFO with no vice, other than short range.


Most folks that cry "it's slow!" never bother looking at the real stats. It almost makes 350mph on the deck. Without wep it's doing over 3500fpm climb above 10k alt (outclimbs every prop in the game by a mile, except 2 109 models and 2 spit models, which modestly match it). There's no doubt it's 10x easier to get kills in a spit16 or spit8 (FYI, only 5mph slower than the spit16!) than in most other planes. Pretending it's "only the pilot" is just ignoring facts.



LOL wrong OK...sure.. Compaired to most LW birds she is slow. Equal to 90% of late war birds???? OK, overall sure it is but in the speed department it is not.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 18, 2010, 08:01:58 AM
Yet, no one has been able to present any sort of evidence that it unbalances the game and needs to be perked.  I wonder why that is...?


ack-ack

What does "unbalancing" mean?  If you say that it means having the % of sorties of the unperked F4U-1C before there was a Spit XVI, then the term is only a rhetorical foil.

So, I'm yet to see anyone give sound criteria for "unbalancing" when something needs to be perked.  I wonder why that is? ;)

P.S. No, I don't think the XVI should be perked.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Saurdaukar on February 18, 2010, 08:10:11 AM
I like the idea, but I think you could of worded it a little better.

This.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: pervert on February 18, 2010, 08:19:04 AM
The way people talk the spit16 somehow magically runs about killing people all by itself. Its a pretend plane piloted by a person, if you can't beat them go practice until you can.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Hap on February 18, 2010, 08:27:12 AM
Also, they slow on the deck.  Handy to keep in mind.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 18, 2010, 08:56:36 AM
Translation:  I'm not very good at this game and get shot down by players flying the Spitfire Mk XVI a lot.  Since I do not possess the skill necessary to properly fight and win an engagement against said Spitfire, I wish it to be perked so I wouldn't get shot down as much.  I'll post this as a wish to mask the true intent of my post and use gross exaggerations that will hopefully convince others like me to support my wish to perk a plane that really doesn't need to be perked at all.  

Pretty much sums up your reasons to have it perked.


ack-ack

Haaaw, Haaaw...

So, you're basically saying that the PerkTard in question has a working definition something like:

Lesbian - noun, any woman who won't let me pork her.

In the D9, Spixteen is the one I fear something like the least - and I'm not even a very good pilot (at least not yet but I have aspirations). Up at speed and alt, I feel like I can pick and choose when to engage and disengage against the Spixteen - and that's a comfort level I DON'T feel with the XIV.

Thing is, though, most of the Spixteens I see are low and slow. At that point, it's a matter of being smart enough to pull off BEFORE I exhaust sufficient E to be unable to climb back up out of reach. This is where my character defects interfere with my cartoon piloting. I want to stay on until I get that kill - and while that can often get the kill on the first Spit, the second one is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: LLogann on February 18, 2010, 09:24:02 AM
Wow.... I have been agreeing with you WAY too much Ack-Ack.......  You are spot on!

Not to mention..... Feb 8th, 2010 registration date.  Of course the kid will come back, as they all do, "I've been playing for years"

So basically the Spit V is probably too dweeby for him too.

Translation:  I'm not very good at this game and get shot down by players flying the Spitfire Mk XVI a lot.  Since I do not possess the skill necessary to properly fight and win an engagement against said Spitfire, I wish it to be perked so I wouldn't get shot down as much.  I'll post this as a wish to mask the true intent of my post and use gross exaggerations that will hopefully convince others like me to support my wish to perk a plane that really doesn't need to be perked at all.  

Pretty much sums up your reasons to have it perked.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: gyrene81 on February 18, 2010, 09:40:53 AM
 :headscratch:  I must be doing something horribly wrong...of all the Spits, the least I worry about is the 8 and 9...could just be luck...the 14 is a nasty bugger to shake off and tough to get lined up on if the pile-it spots you, but the only way I can come close to a 16 is to get one low and slow...and that's in a 109G6...in a 190 it's cherry pick only  :headscratch:

Anyone want to give lessons?
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: LLogann on February 18, 2010, 10:15:44 AM
My Mossie will always beat a Spixteen......... When I have 12,000 feet of alt advantage, or when I jump in after somebody calls for help.    :D

Anyone want to give lessons?
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Delirium on February 18, 2010, 10:18:19 AM
The Spit16 isn't worth perking because the community is policing itself. The vets generally stay out of them (one sortie now and again isn't a big deal), if that was to change I'm sure it would change the discussion.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: LLogann on February 18, 2010, 10:20:27 AM
ON THE NOSEY!!!

The Spit16 isn't worth perking because the community is policing itself. The vets generally stay out of them (one sortie now and again isn't a big deal), if that was to change I'm sure it would change the discussion.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Hajo on February 18, 2010, 10:24:45 AM
I believe this post is about the use of the spitXVI in game.  In game and in real life the American birds are faster until the SpitXIV.

then it becomes a race...altitude,etc.  In game as in real life if the pilot wishes to win he uses his aircrafts strength against the others.

The pilot who is smart uses what his aircraft gives him and doesn't fight into the strengths of his opponents aircraft.

During the war in Europe after BOB it became an escort role that allied fighters chiefly performed.  Higher altitudes, longer range were they key.

The spitfire was a great local defense aircraft and short range escort.  The later models of the Spit were designed to perform at higher altitudes

but still suffered somewhat in range. At higher altitudes turning and burning your aircraft did two things, put you down below the fight, or made

you a target of the better performing and faster fighters.  the SpitXIV I believe was the only model in any number that could hang with the P47s,

P51s and P38s at that alt.  this also included the 190D9, K4 and the very limited TA152.  Again though the spit just didn't have the range to do

what the P51s and P47s did as well as the P38s.  The Luftwaffe didn't need the range.  The enemy was directly above them.

Perk the 16?   Why?  The planes I've listed above have choice of Combat.  Don't be baited into a turn fight if you aren't flying an aircraft that can

out turn you.  That's is what they did in real life.  That is why US fighters were designed as they were.  Tough, fast, and with good range.

As Yeager said when asked about the Spit vs. Mustang.  "The Mustang did for 8 hours what the Spitfire did for 45 minutes."  Which means

The P51 had the capability to fight for 7 to 8 hours.  The Spit had 45 mins.  US aircraft in the ETO carried the ammo load also to make that possible.

In game the flights aren't that long.  If you wish to turnfight go ahead it's your dime.  If you wish to use your aircrafts strengths that's fine also.

IMHO the Spitfire is the most beautiful aircraft ever.  But definitely it would be ridiculous to perk the XVI.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Wingnutt on February 18, 2010, 11:22:08 AM
 Saying it shouldent be perked and backing that opinion with drivel like "just learn to fight it and its and easy kill"  and " fight the fight not the plane"  are idiotic arguments..    and completely off base.  yes.. a good pilot and a lower performing ride can defeat a shoddy pilot in a high performance bird..

hell ive shot down down 262s because they tried to turn with my jug.. I guess I learned how to fight them, and I fought the fight not the plane.. so 262s shouldent be perked either right?  if you fly them like crap they are easy kills right?


IMO what should determine eligibility to perkishness is:

1: production,  was it a very rare plane?

2: performance.

3: amount of  use.

if you find 2 out of those 3 to be excessive, then it probably should be perked.  and so far as I can tell, that seems to be about the case with what is currently perked.  a few notibale exceptions being the wirble, (EXTREMELY excessive use (pretty much the only AA GV you see anymore) and its high lethality due to its unrealistic firing capabilities.

but that hot potato aside..

the 16 gets alot of use, and its performance numbers are pretty astonishing, 2 hizookas, top of the top in climb and acceleration, high top speed, excellent visibility... its only downs (IMO) are its not terribly tough, and has rather limited fuel..  but considering its high climb rate and top speed, the lack of fuel is kinda offset, seeing as how it can get up to fighting alt and to where its going very quickly.

I personally would like to see it perked, it just to much too well too easy..  I dont have much problem with them anymore, because I spent a good amount of time learning SPECIFICALLY how to fight them..  which IMO is another indicator..  I cant say there are many other rides I took devoted alot of time learning SPECIFICALLY how to fight.


Don't be baited into a turn fight if you aren't flying an aircraft that can

out turn you.


the 16, at reasonable MA alts (below 20K)  can catch ALOT of other aircraft that it can also out turn and out gun, so if your run into it in a 51 and your not already up to speed (your just coming out of a fight or whatever)  you have nothing, you are at a disadvantage in every way.. you have weaker guns, you cant accelerate as fast, turn as well, climb as well.. nothing..   you have a high top speed, but you will never get a chance to reach it unless the 16 driver REALLY screws up big time..

so yea, avoid it..  unless you have a big advantage, a skilled pilot in a 16 will mop the floor with you.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: whels on February 18, 2010, 11:44:54 AM
Reset perks at start of every tour. Give everyone 400 perks at tour start, this allows anyone to get perk rides.

now, planes with multiple versions, their base model is free. then perk later versions progressively.
example: Free P47 D11,   D25   5prks, D40 10pks,  N 15pks, M 20pks.  Planes with 1 version like
Niki would be perked lightly till they get their early model. There are a couple planes that are single
versions that probably wouldnt be perks yet, like the Yak.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Lusche on February 18, 2010, 11:51:59 AM
In a few months, we can celebrate 5 years of "Perk The Spit 16!" threads :rock
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 18, 2010, 11:58:10 AM
In a few months, we can celebrate 5 years of "Perk The Spit 16!" threads :rock

Is that also 5 years without official criteria for "unbalancing?" :lol
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: waystin2 on February 18, 2010, 12:03:13 PM
In a few months, we can celebrate 5 years of "Perk The Spit 16!"  :rock
:rofl



:headscratch:  I must be doing something horribly wrong...of all the Spits, the least I worry about is the 8 and 9...could just be luck...the 14 is a nasty bugger to shake off and tough to get lined up on if the pile-it spots you, but the only way I can come close to a 16 is to get one low and slow...and that's in a 109G6...in a 190 it's cherry pick only  :headscratch:

Anyone want to give lessons?

Lessons I can't offer Gyrene.  I am primarily a Spit pilot when in fighter mode.  I prefer the 8 to the 16 and the 9.  Mind you all 3 versions are dangerous if you step out of your envelope and into theirs.  In my opinion this is where most gripes arise about any given plane.  Guys attack a low plane, burn their E, then are surprised when they cannot outfly a co-alt/co-E Spit 16.  Some can get out of this situation, but not all pilots can.  If you cannot outturn or outclimb the Spit model you are facing, do not step into their best performance envelope.  I have an established pecking order of attack when confronted with multiple planes/plane types.  Highest first, then Co-alt, from there I start looking at what can outclimb or out turn my Spit 8 and nail them in order of threat.  I have found that a methodology or process to your attacks can prove very beneficial.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: RTHolmes on February 18, 2010, 12:17:05 PM
Spit 16 is the dweebiest plane in the game and needs to be perked badly. This plane is way to manuverable, can climb like nothing, and obviously can never stall out. Spit 16 needs to be perked double the amount of the spit 14. I'm really not to sure why the 14 is perked, even though it can't even manuver as good as the 16.(Anyone who responds to this and flys spit 16, learn something else to fly.)

a quick glance at the stats shows that so far this year you've been killed by a XVI ... 3 times! :headscratch:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: jdbecks on February 18, 2010, 12:53:28 PM
Learn your planes strengths and your opponents weakness, use your strengths to defeat him without letting your weaknesses being used as his strength.


There is nothing wrong with the spit 16 and I only fly luft rides.. No plane is perfect and all planes have bad points...Its the same when people complain about being ganged and vulched etc..both are problems that are caused by the player complaining.

My current tour standings with the spit 16

                               kills    killed by
Spitfire Mk XVI    0    7    2    
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Wingnutt on February 18, 2010, 01:02:52 PM
Learn your planes strengths and your opponents weakness, use your strengths to defeat him without letting your weaknesses being used as his strength.


There is nothing wrong with the spit 16 and I only fly luft rides.. No plane is perfect and all planes have bad points...Its the same when people complain about being ganged and vulched etc..both are problems that are caused by the player complaining.

My current tour standings with the spit 16

                               kills    killed by
Spitfire Mk XVI    0    7    2    

DUMB


262s are easy meat if you catch em slow, so they shouldn't be perked either.




Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: jdbecks on February 18, 2010, 01:10:46 PM
DUMB


262s are easy meat if you catch em slow, so they shouldn't be perked either.



no its not dumb.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on February 18, 2010, 01:14:39 PM
Interesting to note the K/D of the Spit XVI is 1.13 the same as the P38G.

It's less then the XIV, 3 of the Corsairs, P38J, P51D,  3 of the P47 models including the D-11,, LA7, Ki-84, Ki-61, Hurri IIc, 190D9, C205, 109K4, 109G14, AR234, Tiffie and Ta152 along with the Monsters, the 163, 262 and the Tempest...oh and it's K/D is less then the A20 also.

Guess we better perk a lot of planes :)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: RTHolmes on February 18, 2010, 01:17:26 PM
Interesting to note the K/D of the Spit XVI is ... less then the ... D-11 ...

perk the D11!  :rofl
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: caldera on February 18, 2010, 01:18:36 PM
If the SpitXVI is no big deal, then why is it 5 ENY?   :headscratch:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: jdbecks on February 18, 2010, 01:18:42 PM
 ah wiki, then there is the comparison charts you can look at too..
Quote
Engine Power

The Spitfire Mk XVI really provides a ride for the low to medium altitude ranges up to slightly over 20K. Most fights in AH are under 20K (really under 15K) which is perfect and hence why the Spitfire Mk XVI is such an effective aircraft. Speed is not outstanding but is a bit better than average with WEP. Cruise at sea-level is only 315mph, not even average, but with WEP that kicks up to 342mph which is just above average. The numbers improve with altitude, climbing to 336mph/363mph at 5K, 357mph/384mph at 10K, 368mph/386mph at 15K and 383mph/405mph at 20K. Above 20K there are better Spitfires, and other aircraft, suited to this high altitude work. Climb is very good through the same range, easily enough to match almost all aircraft though the decrease in wing-area on the Spitfire Mk XVI leaves it behind some of it’s Spitfire peers (Spitfire Mk XIV and Mk VIII are slightly superior at high altitudes). Climb-rate flattens out around 15K and drops quickly over 22K. Acceleration, linked to climb-rate, follows the same pattern and is very good at low altitudes. Fuel range has never been a strong-point with Spitfires though the situation has improved with later models that could also accept a droptank. In the case of the Spit XVI, you have 102 gallons of internal fuel which is only 38 minutes or so, even when you are at very low power settings. At military power, you are talking more like 19 minutes. I’d suggest the drop tank is almost mandatory, it adds almost 40% to your duration at full fuel and the drag penalty after dropping the tank is minimal. The Spitifire has also gotten an update to divide the internal fuel into two tanks, a Top and Bottom, with 58 and 44 gallons respectively. This is actually a pretty important change for the Spitfires, it means if you manage your fuel better if you keep track of it manually. With about 68 gallons remaining, manually switch to the top tank (the bottom burns first) and that will leave you 10 gallons as a reserve in your bottom tank. That can be useful if you tend to forget about your fuel and run out and can help if one tank takes a puncture, something that used to be fatal.


 Firepower

Fairly good, the Spitfire comes with only one option of a pair of wing-mounted .50 caliber machine guns (250rpg) and a pair of 20mm Hispano Mk II cannons (120rpg). The .50s are credible when the target is at convergence and also tend to create damage with some well placed hits. They do not tend to give really quick results but they have to be respected as they tend to hole fuel-tanks, radiators and oil-coolers. The 20mm Hispano cannons are very good, they offer superior ballistics to any other 20mm cannon in the game and hit amongst the hardest of the 20mm class of weapons. Hispanos have been respected in the game for a long time and any aircraft carrying a pair of them should be effective against fighter sized aircraft with even quick snapshots. Firing time is a bit light, 18 seconds for the .50’s and 11 seconds for the 20mm, enough for a few kills at least.

External options are better than earlier Spitfires with wing mounts for 250lb bombs or a pair of 3.5inch rockets. While basically a token attack ability, it is none-the-less something and gives some flexibility over the target to knock out light structures or go after lightly armored ground vehicles. On the centerline is also a mount which can carry a 500lb bomb or 30 gallon drop tank. Typically the drop tank is taken to provide some reasonable range but the bomb can be useful in close. Performance suffers at high aircraft weights and high drags so flying around with a bunch of ordnance is not great if you are fighting.
Maneuverability

The Spitfire Mk XVI weighs in at only 6329lbs when totally unloaded (no fuel or ammo), loaded with fuel/ammunition 7,241lbs. The Spitfire doesn’t handle the weight too poorly although if you add on external ordnance you can quickly find yourself over 8,300lbs which is a problem. Turn rate is good though the clipped wingtips do give a noticeable reduction in turn-rate and an increase in radius. That effect becomes especially evident at high altitudes. Still, the Spitfire Mk XVI is at least average and at speed can tend to pull enough lead for a shot without too much trouble. Low speed handling is a bit less stable and seems to be a bit oversensitive in pitch in my experience. Don’t use flaps, they are really only for landing and the drag they produce is a real disadvantage. General performance and stability are very good over the whole speed range and roll rate is very crisp and direct, something different from all the other Spitfires which tend to feel laggy in roll. With WEP power, the Spitfire Mk XVI can maintain a turn or replace lost energy.
Fighting in the Spitfire Mk XVI

Easily one of the best aircraft in the game, the popularity of Spitfires in general was always high due to their good balance of abilities. The Spitfire Mk XVI addressed the two largest issues that Spitfires suffered from, some lack of roll rate and a low speed at low-medium altitudes. The Spitfire Mk XVI may not be the "best" aircraft in any one aspect of the game but it certainly is better than average at most.

Use the excellent power and responsiveness when fighting and try to keep the fights at medium or lower altitudes. A quick climb for some altitude is never a bad idea and the Spitfire Mk XVI is no different (though it climbs like a rocket so it doesn’t take long). Other full-span winged Spitfires will have slightly better turn rates, especially as altitude increases, so slow turn-fights are not a specific strength. Sustained turn-rates are good given the engine power and the instantaneous turn-rate is also very good. Try and use the excellent vertical performance, quick aileron response, and solid turn-rate to win angles for a shot. You should be able to match the energy potential of most opponents and probably build an energy advantage over time due to a generally low energy bleed of most Spitfires. Don’t hang around in turn-fights if they start to slow down, the likes of the Ki84, N1K2 and P-38’s can give you trouble as they tend to gain advantage as the speeds slow. Also try and avoid high-weight fights with external stores, most of the time people will carry a drop tank but potentially forget to drop it, it will create extra drag and decrease performance. Also save your WEP for use in the fight, the Spitfire Mk XVI is a different beast if you don’t have the extra power of WEP. Be careful not to overshoot your target, the Spitfire Mk XVI generates energy so quickly that it is a frequent mistake to blow right by an opponent if you make a mistake.

Defensively you probably have a lot of options but consider the initial situation to determine your goals. The Spitfire Mk XVI is not a fantastic extender if you decide to run though it is quick off the line for short sprints of speed. Recovering energy to even out a fight is not too difficult if you are smart and that can get you back into a fight on even terms. Quick roll is also a big asset, it tends to keep the enemy out of phase with your lift vector and cause you to be a very hard target. Maneuvers in the vertical are good, be they defensive like a split-S and if given even a little time to recover some energy/position, the Spitfire Mk XVI can turn back on the offensive. If presented the opportunity, quick snapshots can be dangerous to discourage enemies who hang around to get sloppy near you.
Fighting against the Spitfire Mk XVI

Be careful, it doesn’t take a fantastic pilot to make a Spitfire Mk XVI dangerous. It has such quick hitting power and can adjust so quickly to defensive maneuvers that it can be a real handful.

Always assume Spitfires you see are Mk XVIs unless you know better. If you get over-aggressive and in close with a Mk XVI you can quickly run into real trouble and not be able to escape. Pick your spot carefully and make your attacks count. Given the balance in the Spitfire Mk XVI several other aircraft will have either a speed or turn-rate/radius advantage if the speeds get slow. Spitfires are typically don’t take damage very well, they tend to get holed fuel tanks and lose radiators to even quick snapshots so don’t be afraid to spray a little to try and inflict damage. A damaged Spitfire tends to have very little time before the fuel runs out or the engine overheats which will force the Mk XVI pilot to be very aggressive knowing his time is running out. Give yourself some extra leeway to escape if things turn against you.

Getting jumped by a Spitfire Mk XVI is a bad situation so try and avoid the initial attacks with some hard maneuvers. If you have an opportunity to get in a snapshot, do so, as Spitfires tend to overshoot if they are not carefully being managed well (the huge energy building potential and tendency to attack with lots of alt/speed causes this). Many aircraft in the late war arena are still going to have an overall speed advantage if they can build a little time to extend from the Spitfire Mk XVI although the margin might be a bit slim. In general I try and point out on most aircraft a specific weakness that can be exploited but in the case of the Spitfire Mk XVI there isn’t any one thing specific.Be careful, the Spit XVI has an amazing roll rate. If you are in a rolling scissors with a Spit XVI try and get out of it , the roll rate of the Spit XVI makes it dangerous and in the hands of a veteran you are almost certain to end up on a chute if you try and fight its fight. It’ll come down to pilot skill and appropriate selection/execution of maneuvers that suit your aircraft. The margins are likely to be small and it’ll be a tough fight.





Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: LLogann on February 18, 2010, 01:22:23 PM
Did you know people like you and I are the ones that build those wiki pages?  A dead Don Knotts was running for US President in 2008 too according to wiki.

ah wiki, then there is the comparison charts you can look at too..

EDIT:   Whether it be AHwiki or regular wiki    :aok
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 18, 2010, 02:36:14 PM
...Still waiting for someone to give sound criteria for perking.

Interesting to note the K/D of the Spit XVI is 1.13 the same as the P38G.

It's less then the XIV, 3 of the Corsairs, P38J, P51D,  3 of the P47 models including the D-11,, LA7, Ki-84, Ki-61, Hurri IIc, 190D9, C205, 109K4, 109G14, AR234, Tiffie and Ta152 along with the Monsters, the 163, 262 and the Tempest...oh and it's K/D is less then the A20 also.

Guess we better perk a lot of planes :)

I hope you aren't making the argument that a plane is only as good as its k/d ratio.  You and I both know that doesn't cut it. ;)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on February 18, 2010, 02:51:11 PM
...Still waiting for someone to give sound criteria for perking
HTC decides that the unit is having undesirable effects on the game in its uncontrolled state.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: BnZs on February 18, 2010, 03:08:35 PM
Learn to fight your fight not the 16s.  Its easy to kill like any other plane when you use
you plane correctly.

This is rather fatuous statement. There is no fight against most opposition that is not the 16's, unless you're calling the other LW monster's ability to run away some sort of fight.

However, the OP should realize that 1. He needs to learn how to write and argue with something resembling logic, and 2. No one gives a *****. The fact that the Spixteen is fairly close to being the supreme a2a machine of the game is eclipsed by other facts, such that the more experienced players don't usually choose to fly it offensively, half of the a2a fighting in the MA is about who brings the bigger horde, and half the player base going about trying to kill buildings, not airplanes, anway.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Wingnutt on February 18, 2010, 03:20:41 PM
K/D and personal experience VS a particular ride meas absolutly nothing and has actually negative merit, seeing as how trying to use that argument only highlights the fact that you are indeed grasping at straws.

The fact that the more experienced sticks tend to avoid flying the 16 due to the negative stigma that surrounds it.. I.E. that its too easy to fly and get kills in.. tends to back up the OP argument that it is too good and needs to be perked.

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on February 18, 2010, 03:40:31 PM
Addition for Karnak  ;)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/engines-cleared-for-150-1.jpg)
Note the lack of a Merlin 61 on that list.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: JunkyII on February 18, 2010, 03:46:58 PM
I think all GBs rides are easy mode..........thats why real men fly luft
















 :O
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on February 18, 2010, 03:56:05 PM
Note the lack of a Merlin 61 on that list.
Spit VIII had Merlin 63,66,70 and the Spit IX had the Merlin 61 phased out early in 1943 in favour of the Merlin 63 and 63A
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 18, 2010, 04:11:45 PM

IMHO the Spitfire is the most beautiful aircraft ever.  

I agreed with your post until I got to the above sentence.  Anyone with an appreciation for the beautiful things in life know that by far the most beautiful aircraft ever designed and built was the P-38 Lightning.  Anything else is just an ugly duckling in comparison.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: waystin2 on February 18, 2010, 04:12:26 PM
I think all GBs rides are easy mode..........thats why real men fly luft
















 :O

Even Mosquitos?  LOL

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 18, 2010, 04:12:54 PM
In a few months, we can celebrate 5 years of "Perk The Spit 16!" threads :rock

Has it passed the previous record holder, the La-7?


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 18, 2010, 04:16:06 PM
HTC decides that the unit is having undesirable effects on the game in its uncontrolled state.
:lol  Talk about begging the question.  What counts as an "undesirable effect?" :banana:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 18, 2010, 04:18:15 PM

The fact that the more experienced sticks tend to avoid flying the 16 due to the negative stigma that surrounds it.. I.E. that its too easy to fly and get kills in.. tends to back up the OP argument that it is too good and needs to be perked.



Now who's grasping at straws?

Please, enlighten us with how the Spitfire Mk XVI unperked unbalances the game play. 


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 18, 2010, 04:20:19 PM
:lol  Talk about begging the question.  What counts as an "undesirable effect?" :banana:

Just look at the C-Hog before it was perked for an example of an "undesirable effect" on game play. 


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Lusche on February 18, 2010, 04:24:43 PM
Has it passed the previous record holder, the La-7?


ack-ack


I think this calls for a pie chart....  :noid
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Masherbrum on February 18, 2010, 04:42:37 PM

I think this calls for a pie chart....  :noid

 :uhoh
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: JunkyII on February 18, 2010, 04:42:52 PM
Even Mosquitos?  LOL


push the head up key and you will know why the Mossy is easy mode :aok
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 18, 2010, 04:51:32 PM
Just look at the C-Hog before it was perked for an example of an "undesirable effect" on game play.  


ack-ack

Before there was a XVI in AH?  And is the unperked, pre XVI C-Hog the standard?  If it is, then we can't explain why the XIV is perked, because it would never reach that kind of status.

I know I'm being a pain in the ass.  I'm just trying to point out that what is perked and what is not seems entirely ad-hoc, with no real criteria to determine it.

Unperk the C-Hog! :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: uptown on February 18, 2010, 04:55:34 PM
Forget the spits...perk the trees!  :joystick:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Soulyss on February 18, 2010, 05:08:43 PM
Wait.... there's pie?
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: jdbecks on February 18, 2010, 05:13:30 PM
Wait.... there's pie?


Mmmm Pie...now you made me hungry  :cry
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Lusche on February 18, 2010, 05:46:58 PM
Has it passed the previous record holder, the La-7?


ack-ack


I think this calls for a pie chart....  :noid

I can't belive I really did this:  :uhoh

I did a BBS search of all topics with "perk" in the title in General Discussions, Wishlist and Aircraft & Vehicles. Then I noted how many were asking for perking the La, the Spit or both. I did not count obviously non-serious OP's.

The result:

(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2032/clipboard02wz.jpg)


I think I need to get a life...
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 18, 2010, 06:00:44 PM
How do the "PERK THE N1K2" thread compare?  As I recall, those threads were just about as common as the "PERK THE LA-7!" threads before the "PERK THE Spitfire 16!" ones.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: MachFly on February 18, 2010, 06:04:46 PM
I can't belive I really did this:  :uhoh

I did a BBS search of all topics with "perk" in the title in General Discussions, Wishlist and Aircraft & Vehicles. Then I noted how many were asking for perking the La, the Spit or both. I did not count obviously non-serious OP's.

The result:

(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2032/clipboard02wz.jpg)


I think I need to get a life...

What was the total amount of threads?
You might now know this one but how many of them were done by the same person asking the same thing over and over again?
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Wingnutt on February 18, 2010, 06:11:57 PM
Perk pie charts.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Lusche on February 18, 2010, 06:12:07 PM
How do the "PERK THE N1K2" thread compare?  As I recall, those threads were just about as common as the "PERK THE LA-7!" threads before the "PERK THE Spitfire 16!" ones.


ack-ack

What was the total amount of threads?
You might now know this one but how many of them were done by the same person asking the same thing over and over again?

I found surprisingly few threads at all: Only 19
But then, the method of simply searching for "perk" in topic title is far from being perfect. (And I'm convinced the search engine has some bugs, I had difficulties to find threads that I absolutely knew to exist before).

Also, countless perk requests are not made by genuine threads, but as single posts within other threads (And that's were you will encounter the same guys again and again). If you wanna find all these... good luck :D

(Regarding the N1k: I didn'T count them but it were less than La-7 and probably even less than Spit 16)

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 18, 2010, 06:19:44 PM
I found surprisingly few threads at all: Only 19
But then, the method of simply searching for "perk" in topic title is far from being perfect. (And I'm convinced the search engine has some bugs, I had difficulties to find threads that I absolutely knew to exist before).

I think a lot of threads were lost during the forum migration to the new servers a couple of years ago.


Quote
(Regarding the N1k: I didn'T count them but it were less than La-7 and probably even less than Spit 16)

I think most of the "PERK THE N1K2" threads weren't genuine threads and were more then likely singe posts in other threads like you described.  For a time about 7-8 years ago, it was usually "PERK ON OF THE BIG 4! (La-7/P-51D/N1K2/FW190-D9)

ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Lusche on February 18, 2010, 06:29:46 PM
 For a time about 7-8 years ago, it was usually "PERK ON OF THE BIG 4! (La-7/P-51D/N1K2/FW190-D9)

While I worked my way through 23+ pages of search results, it was fun to read some of that old stuff that just looks strange in hindsight: "The Spit-9 should be perked" (for the younger ones: Yes, the IX was once one of the dominating rides), or debates whether the upcoming Ki-84 should be a perk plane or not, along with all that "Get rid of perks! I'm a paying customer, I want to fly what I like!" stuff
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on February 18, 2010, 07:09:49 PM
Spit VIII had Merlin 63,66,70 and the Spit IX had the Merlin 61 phased out early in 1943 in favour of the Merlin 63 and 63A
The is true, but what is relevant is what they have in AH.  In AH the Spitfire Mk IX is powered by a Merlin 61 and the Spitfire Mk VIII is powered by a Merlin 66.  Incidentally, the Spitfire Mk XVI is also powered by a Merlin 66 in AH, not the Merlin 266 it should have and is thus really a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe.

push the head up key and you will know why the Mossy is easy mode :aok
What about those who do not use that exploit?
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 18, 2010, 07:26:44 PM
How do the "PERK THE N1K2" thread compare?  As I recall, those threads were just about as common as the "PERK THE LA-7!" threads before the "PERK THE Spitfire 16!" ones.


ack-ack

Perk 'em all so that no one can fly any of 'em.

If I can't win, I'm taking my marbles and going home.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on February 18, 2010, 08:34:44 PM
While I worked my way through 23+ pages of search results, it was fun to read some of that old stuff that just looks strange in hindsight: "The Spit-9 should be perked" (for the younger ones: Yes, the IX was once one of the dominating rides), or debates whether the upcoming Ki-84 should be a perk plane or not, along with all that "Get rid of perks! I'm a paying customer, I want to fly what I like!" stuff
god, i may just be 19 but i remember those days when i would fly the spitIX cuz i was noob... back when my dad flew this game daily and i just hopped on and off a few days out of the week...
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on February 18, 2010, 09:05:23 PM
...Still waiting for someone to give sound criteria for perking.

I hope you aren't making the argument that a plane is only as good as its k/d ratio.  You and I both know that doesn't cut it. ;)

LOL I guess that means we better start perking the pilots instead!

My point is, folks will find something to whine about no matter what.  If HTC had called it a Spit LFIXe instead of an LFXVIe, the whines wouldn't be what they are.  Spit drivers tend to try and out turn everyone.  I like that.  They stick around and fight for the most part.  And because it's newer, less experienced sticks flying it, they find some success in it, which means they might continue to stick around and fight.  When the LA7 was the ride of choice for the newer guys trying to find success, all they did was run in, shoot and run out.  I'd much rather have a guy try and learn to use the plane then one who just goes fast with cannons.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: guncrasher on February 19, 2010, 12:06:11 AM
LOL I guess that means we better start perking the pilots instead!

My point is, folks will find something to whine about no matter what.  If HTC had called it a Spit LFIXe instead of an LFXVIe, the whines wouldn't be what they are.  Spit drivers tend to try and out turn everyone.  I like that.  They stick around and fight for the most part.  And because it's newer, less experienced sticks flying it, they find some success in it, which means they might continue to stick around and fight.  When the LA7 was the ride of choice for the newer guys trying to find success, all they did was run in, shoot and run out.  I'd much rather have a guy try and learn to use the plane then one who just goes fast with cannons.

well said,  I think its funny when they tell new pilots that the best planes are the pony's and 190's or the 109's.  I have been playing this game about 3 years now and before i played AW for a couple more.  I fly mostly the spit8, only reason is that it is a good turner and its fun to fly.  you can perk the spit16 if you want, but not like its gonna stop people from using the 4 or 5 perk points that it will be assigned.  Think about it, the people that fly the spit16  have lots of perkies to spend so it wont make a difference and the people that dont have the perkies are not really good in it anyway.  So what good will it do to perk it?

semp
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Warspawn on February 19, 2010, 05:57:36 AM
Interesting to note the K/D of the Spit XVI is 1.13 the same as the P38G.


The only reason it has that K/D is because every newb jumps into it and dies.  It's an amazing aircraft, much like the LA-7.  That plane has a similar K/D.

The spit XVI and LA-7 should both be perked, much like the C-hog is.  Or, take off the C-hog and spit XIV perks.

The 'spixteen' is virtually unbeatable in the hands of a good stick, and deadly with someone relative inexperienced in it.  As some have mentioned, this plane should be one new pilots graduate to, not a default monster they up when they first get in the arena.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 19, 2010, 07:08:25 AM
LOL I guess that means we better start perking the pilots instead!

My point is, folks will find something to whine about no matter what.  If HTC had called it a Spit LFIXe instead of an LFXVIe, the whines wouldn't be what they are.  Spit drivers tend to try and out turn everyone.  I like that.  They stick around and fight for the most part.  And because it's newer, less experienced sticks flying it, they find some success in it, which means they might continue to stick around and fight.  When the LA7 was the ride of choice for the newer guys trying to find success, all they did was run in, shoot and run out.  I'd much rather have a guy try and learn to use the plane then one who just goes fast with cannons.

I have to agree with you about what I'd rather see new pilots flying.  On the other hand, snailman says whines about perking the Spit IX used to be common.

I still have little doubt that the XVI is the best unperked fighter in the game by a significant margin.  It's faster than the C-Hog as soon as you get above sea level, rolls like a 190A, and climbs with the 109K-4.  Some of us forget that to beat a decent pilot in a XVI with a worse plane requires that your pilot skill be a magnitude greater.  A lot of the complaints come from those who are getting shot down by XVIs when their pilot skill is greater than the new-ish guy in the XVI, but not enough to overcome the aircraft performance advantage.

So with a plane like the XVI running around the arena, I can't see any justification for not experimenting with unperking the XIV and C-Hog.  I do understand that the C-Hog is the posterchild for perking, but that was when there was no XVI.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Kazaa on February 19, 2010, 07:32:39 AM
Before the Mk. XVI was introduced to Aces High 2  the La7 ruled the skies, it was a horrid time for everyone. What would you rather have, a crotch rocket that would extend every time you even had a sniff of a gun solution and turn back in for the HO shot every time when you got bored of chasing him, or the slower, more fragile Mk. XVI

At least the Mk. XVI can't run that far. :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Slade on February 19, 2010, 07:55:39 AM
Most 16s are flown very badly.  On the other hand a good pilot with one is very formidable.

Being an average pilot (at best) I try to place myself in position where a 16 (or any plane) will ever have an advantage on me.  Usually if I get shot down by a 16 it was my mistake in judgment to have engaged it with little change to survive.

Good point on the LA7s.  If the 16 is perked many may jump back to the LA7.  I'd rather fight 16s - they cannot run or chase me down as well.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: gyrene81 on February 19, 2010, 09:25:03 AM
This probably wouldn't be such a big deal if those "good stick" people who claim to "enjoy the fight" didn't show up in one among the newbs when a big fight was going on...it's gotten to the point where anytime I see "good sticks" land multiple kills in a Spit XVI, XIV, C hog, Pony, or 262...or if a "good stick" shoots me down in one of those planes...I don't give them any acknowledgment whatsoever. The guys landing multiple kills in P-40s or 109Fs deserve the respect.

I don't think the LA-7 is good enough to need perking...it's not that great. Like the rest of the planes, someone who flies it a lot can be a handful in one...otherwise it's not on the same level with the Spit 14/16 or C hog. Very easy to get into trouble with.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 19, 2010, 11:25:54 AM
This probably wouldn't be such a big deal if those "good stick" people who claim to "enjoy the fight" didn't show up in one among the newbs when a big fight was going on...it's gotten to the point where anytime I see "good sticks" land multiple kills in a Spit XVI, XIV, C hog, Pony, or 262...or if a "good stick" shoots me down in one of those planes...I don't give them any acknowledgment whatsoever. The guys landing multiple kills in P-40s or 109Fs deserve the respect.

I don't think the LA-7 is good enough to need perking...it's not that great. Like the rest of the planes, someone who flies it a lot can be a handful in one...otherwise it's not on the same level with the Spit 14/16 or C hog. Very easy to get into trouble with.

This raises a question to me... I've taken to flying the Spit IX because it's eny is 20 yet it's still a very strong dogfighter and a pretty easy kill platform - and it's fun. I met up with some guy named Draggon in LW Blue yesterday. I was actually in a Seafire MkII, he in a HurriII, and we used lots of communication to waste two of 3 P51-Ds that thought they could take us. The other ran home like a l'il bee-atch after multiple serial monogamy initiation night at the sorority house.

My question: what is the impact of ENY on Perkies? I'm told I get more perks for generating kills in a high ENY AC but know notihng of how that might work.

-HighJacker
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on February 19, 2010, 11:59:13 AM
This probably wouldn't be such a big deal if those "good stick" people who claim to "enjoy the fight" didn't show up in one among the newbs when a big fight was going on...it's gotten to the point where anytime I see "good sticks" land multiple kills in a Spit XVI, XIV, C hog, Pony, or 262...or if a "good stick" shoots me down in one of those planes...I don't give them any acknowledgment whatsoever. The guys landing multiple kills in P-40s or 109Fs deserve the respect.

I don't think the LA-7 is good enough to need perking...it's not that great. Like the rest of the planes, someone who flies it a lot can be a handful in one...otherwise it's not on the same level with the Spit 14/16 or C hog. Very easy to get into trouble with.

And still no one has given any justification for perking the Spit 16 beyond they might have to work to shoot one down now and then or they don't like seeing folks land kills in them.  Seems downright silly.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: waystin2 on February 19, 2010, 12:01:28 PM
And still no one has given any justification for perking the Spit 16 beyond they might have to work to shoot one down now and then or they don't like seeing folks land kills in them.  Seems downright silly.

No one can Guppy.  No one...  Ditto to your statement. :aok
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ghosth on February 19, 2010, 12:07:21 PM
And still no one has given any justification for perking the Spit 16 beyond they might have to work to shoot one down now and then or they don't like seeing folks land kills in them.  Seems downright silly.

^ Quoted for truth!

Exactly so Guppy, exactly so.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 19, 2010, 12:46:46 PM
^ Quoted for truth!

Exactly so Guppy, exactly so.

I think the justification's been given - it's just hiding because it's a bit small and silly.

As for the perk by performance argument... I'd call that too ambiguous. Which performance parameter should we base perking on and to what do we tie the perk level?

It's a high pressure can of worms.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Anaxogoras on February 19, 2010, 12:47:20 PM
And still no one has given any justification for perking the Spit 16 beyond they might have to work to shoot one down now and then or they don't like seeing folks land kills in them.  Seems downright silly.

I attempted to give justification once based on performance data, but some were not happy with my methodology.  See this thread:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264759.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264759.0.html)

If you take a weighted average of the zscores for speed, climb, turn rate/radius, roll rate, firepower, ordnance, cockpit visibility, acceleration, dive acceleration, etc., the XVI scores with aircraft that are currently perked.  I was convinced by others that this was a better argument for unperking aircraft than for perking the XVI.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: SlapShot on February 19, 2010, 02:59:51 PM
The fact that the more experienced sticks tend to avoid flying the 16 due to the negative stigma that surrounds it.. I.E. that its too easy to fly and get kills in.. tends to back up the OP argument that it is too good and needs to be perked.

Anyone who doesn't fly a plane because of "negative stigma" is basically a "tool" ... fly what ya like, when ya want to fly it.

I was and am still a huge Spit fan, but I fart in the general direction of Spit ... why ? ... because that is all I flew for about 2 years straight and I know what it can and cannot do. I did the exact same thing with the La-7 (flew it exclusively for over a year). Had I worried about what people thought, I might be in the same position as the OP and have no clue as to how to deal with these planes and then come crying on the BBS looking to perk it so I wouldn't have to deal with it.

.
Want to know how to kill a Spit/La-7 ... fly a Spit/La-7 and "learn" it.

When I am in my FM2 or F6F and I see a Spit 5/8/9/14/16 ... I hope and pray that they stick around for a "fight" or think that they have a "easy" kill on the line.

Spit 16s taste like chicken
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: WING47 on February 19, 2010, 04:38:50 PM
       The Spixteen is a uber plane and if you have ever flown a P-51, 109, P-38 all those skill oriented
planes. It does tend to be tougher than other birds. However, usually(please don't take this personally)
the pilots are easy to beat. Sure its good if your a noob but it affects the learning curve. Its just too
dang easy to fly. Not to mention only 24 hours of logged combat sorties. So I agree the Spit 16 should
be perked to a certain extent, only to discouage its use (its all people fly). :cheers:+1 THRASH   
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on February 19, 2010, 06:03:14 PM
       The Spixteen is a uber plane and if you have ever flown a P-51, 109, P-38 all those skill oriented
planes. It does tend to be tougher than other birds. However, usually(please don't take this personally)
the pilots are easy to beat. Sure its good if your a noob but it affects the learning curve. Its just too
dang easy to fly. Not to mention only 24 hours of logged combat sorties. So I agree the Spit 16 should
be perked to a certain extent, only to discouage its use (its all people fly). :cheers:+1 THRASH   

And that's the dumbest argument to make.  Discourage newbies from getting into a fight.  Force them into something that is harder to learn and can drive them away from learning to use it or even the game itself.

I hate to break it to you guys, but the real Spit was easy to fly too.  Talk to any Spit pilot and they'll tell you that.  Had the Spitfire been able to go the range as an escort there would have been no P51.  The game highlights it's strengths as going to Berlin and back isn't needed.  And with the airwar fought at lower alts in AH, the LFXVIe is right in the element it was designed for.

Good for the newbies who hop in it and have at it trying to learn the game.  I hope they feel some success and stick around so they can move on to birds that are more difficult and provide a different kind of success.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: FLS on February 19, 2010, 06:25:25 PM
So if newbs take more challenging A/C in order to "learn ACM" it's just a coincidence that it'll be easier for the people telling them not to fly Spits to kill them? So the newbs need more challenge so there's less challenge for other people who already know ACM? It's like HOs and all the other unwritten rules. They all make it easier to kill newbs or harder for newbs to kill vets. By coincidence of course. It's for their own good. Really.   :devil
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: WING47 on February 19, 2010, 07:18:42 PM
And that's the dumbest argument to make.  Discourage newbies from getting into a fight.  Force them into something that is harder to learn and can drive them away from learning to use it or even the game itself.

I hate to break it to you guys, but the real Spit was easy to fly too.  Talk to any Spit pilot and they'll tell you that.  Had the Spitfire been able to go the range as an escort there would have been no P51.  The game highlights it's strengths as going to Berlin and back isn't needed.  And with the airwar fought at lower alts in AH, the LFXVIe is right in the element it was designed for.

Good for the newbies who hop in it and have at it trying to learn the game.  I hope they feel some success and stick around so they can move on to birds that are more difficult and provide a different kind of success.
key word GOOD FOR NOOBS
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on February 19, 2010, 08:42:14 PM
key word GOOD FOR NOOBS

And you've been playing how long?
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Scotty55OEFVet on February 19, 2010, 08:47:21 PM
Spit 16 is the dweebiest plane in the game and needs to be perked badly. This plane is way to manuverable, can climb like nothing, and obviously can never stall out. Spit 16 needs to be perked double the amount of the spit 14. I'm really not to sure why the 14 is perked, even though it can't even manuver as good as the 16.(Anyone who responds to this and flys spit 16, learn something else to fly.)

I kill more Spixteens than any other plane...learn to deal with them.  You perk that and you will see a jump in Sissy LA LAs, Spit9's, etc.  You can perk the plane but ya cant perk the dweeb, lol.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 19, 2010, 08:54:55 PM
And you've been playing how long?

My guess the same amount of time as the OP and also probably tired of getting his bellybutton handed to him by Spitfire drivers.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on February 19, 2010, 11:13:43 PM
My argument is this.

While I may be a Spitdweeb and fly the 16 quite often. I recognize that it is easy. However, just to say someone is not skilled just because they fly it is just plain untrue. I fly all spits and the 16 strikes me as the best, while the Spit 8 is my favourite and the Spit 9 is just plain awesome. If you are gonna fight in MA you need something that is not perked that can catch LA-7's and 109's and the 16 fits that bill as a fast, tight turning killing machine.

Put a noob in it and he stands a chance. Put a pro in it and you have to work for a kill. Put someone who knows it inside and out and your prob gonna end up on a chute.

I can fly any plane well but the Spit is my plane of choice, by the logic being presented in this thread you are indicating that The Few: which has Bruv and Kazaa or 71st RAF which have Niros1 and Batfink are skilless because they are spit pilots. I am just curious to see how long you last with them in a TBM!! and you in a Spixteen.

B6Pacman
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Scotty55OEFVet on February 20, 2010, 01:23:55 AM
AMEN SLAP, AMEN!!!
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 21, 2010, 08:57:26 AM
My argument is this.

While I may be a Spitdweeb and fly the 16 quite often. I recognize that it is easy. However, just to say someone is not skilled just because they fly it is just plain untrue. I fly all spits and the 16 strikes me as the best, while the Spit 8 is my favourite and the Spit 9 is just plain awesome.
B6Pacman

Heh, heh... I've been flying the IX lately as a result of this thread.

You all, I'm sure, know how easy it can be, especially for a relatively new toon pilot like myself (and I mean cartoon, not Comrade Toon) to get victimized by the same klown over and over. Such was the case with me and Shiv. He killed me twice over the past couple of weeks. Both times, the scenario was similar - 1v1 with a Co-alt HO merge, I in an N1K2, he in his Corsair. Each time, he'd work a low speed turn and eventually end up on my 6. Well, last night, I encountered him from the seat of a Spit IX. This time, right after the merge, I looked at my airspeed, verified that it was a little over 3 hundee true, pulled straight up, flopped her over, rolled upright, dove, and fired a lead burst. BOOM. No more shiv.

I was so proud I posted some pics of "little Zilla" up on a free photo hosting site. Behold the one-eyed Monster, people, say I.  :D

This BBS is f*ckin' great.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Masherbrum on February 22, 2010, 12:25:56 AM
And you've been playing how long?

IIRC, Wing47 is in Ruler2's squad.   

       The Spixteen is a uber plane and if you have ever flown a P-51, 109, P-38 all those skill oriented
planes. It does tend to be tougher than other birds. However, usually(please don't take this personally)
the pilots are easy to beat. Sure its good if your a noob but it affects the learning curve. Its just too
dang easy to fly. Not to mention only 24 hours of logged combat sorties. So I agree the Spit 16 should
be perked to a certain extent, only to discouage its use (its all people fly). :cheers:+1 THRASH

&

key word GOOD FOR NOOBS

Looking at your stats since last year, you should hop in the Spixteen.   For you to even mention "noob" to someone other than yourself is uncalled for.   My suggestion, get with a Trainer.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: LLogann on February 22, 2010, 12:40:49 AM
Let's remember the difference between Noob & Newb...........


That Newb is clearly not a Noob........




Just saying.

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 22, 2010, 07:22:13 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: uptown on February 22, 2010, 10:09:33 AM
Spit16s are great fighters but one of the main flaws people have with them is they think they can't be beat. I rope and kill more 16s than any other i'd guess. Yes they outclimb a 51 but most spit are not paying attention to my E state or his. Most spit16 guys are fairly new to the game and can be tricked in to a mistake fairly easy.

Same goes for the 51 guys too. I probably kill more 16s & 51s then any other planes in the game. Simpily because the're so predictable. Don't hesitate to get in their and mix it up with them. When you can get beat one in a turn fight or blast him in a overshoot,that will put a smile on your face like no other  ;)

I used to want the spixteen perked too, seemed as it was the only plane on my arse most of the time. But the more they killed me the more i learned about what they could and couldn't do. :salute
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 22, 2010, 10:13:15 AM
I recall a recent thread where people were complaining about its top end being so low... go figure.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: shiv on February 23, 2010, 12:02:43 AM
Heh, heh... I've been flying the IX lately as a result of this thread.

You all, I'm sure, know how easy it can be, especially for a relatively new toon pilot like myself (and I mean cartoon, not Comrade Toon) to get victimized by the same klown over and over. Such was the case with me and Shiv. He killed me twice over the past couple of weeks. Both times, the scenario was similar - 1v1 with a Co-alt HO merge, I in an N1K2, he in his Corsair. Each time, he'd work a low speed turn and eventually end up on my 6. Well, last night, I encountered him from the seat of a Spit IX. This time, right after the merge, I looked at my airspeed, verified that it was a little over 3 hundee true, pulled straight up, flopped her over, rolled upright, dove, and fired a lead burst. BOOM. No more shiv.

I was so proud I posted some pics of "little Zilla" up on a free photo hosting site. Behold the one-eyed Monster, people, say I.  :D

This BBS is f*ckin' great.

Lol, <S> Zilla, I remember that fight being over real quick,  Nice work.  You'll get better and better too as you always fight.  Some guys run the other way from a 1v1. That's no way to learn.

Now perk the Spit IX!
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on February 23, 2010, 12:51:23 AM
I can fly any plane well

Prove it.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 23, 2010, 06:45:08 AM
Lol, <S> Zilla, I remember that fight being over real quick,  Nice work.  You'll get better and better too as you always fight.  Some guys run the other way from a 1v1. That's no way to learn.

Now perk the Spit IX!

Shiv lives! Thanks. It's great to trade post to the real person. I have to admit, I held a goal in my head of "one day shooting down shiv". I am no match for you in an N1K2 - in the Spit, I went for surprise with the vertical departure after the merge - since people here talk about it as the "begged question" of Shaw, et al. 

I also have to admit, I'm a little nervous about what you're going to pull on me next time you see me. I'll be up for it, though - at least as a learning experience.

Thanks for being an honorable, dangerous, and worthy 1v1   :salute - I agree entirely with your take on running being no way to learn.

I'm also a bit mystified by the Corsair. I was using one the other day, deploying flaps for low speed turns. The thing I can't get over is the 6 view. One of my Ford buddies tells me that you have to look aft from the side. I seem to recall the canopy as bulging on the sides. However, I have a really hard time doing this with my TrackIR. I wonder if I should set a hat position to that view instead. I like the apparent thought process behind the airplane - uber flaps for low speed handling and the big radial for top end. I just can't wield it yet. It also seems to be a bit short on climb rate (exception for the C-Hawg? - I don't spend perks much). Anyway, I figure you can answer those questions since you seem to know what you're doing with that thing.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: shiv on February 23, 2010, 08:14:26 AM
Shiv lives! Thanks. It's great to trade post to the real person. I have to admit, I held a goal in my head of "one day shooting down shiv". I am no match for you in an N1K2 - in the Spit, I went for surprise with the vertical departure after the merge - since people here talk about it as the "begged question" of Shaw, et al. 

I also have to admit, I'm a little nervous about what you're going to pull on me next time you see me. I'll be up for it, though - at least as a learning experience.

Thanks for being an honorable, dangerous, and worthy 1v1   :salute - I agree entirely with your take on running being no way to learn.

I'm also a bit mystified by the Corsair. I was using one the other day, deploying flaps for low speed turns. The thing I can't get over is the 6 view. One of my Ford buddies tells me that you have to look aft from the side. I seem to recall the canopy as bulging on the sides. However, I have a really hard time doing this with my TrackIR. I wonder if I should set a hat position to that view instead. I like the apparent thought process behind the airplane - uber flaps for low speed handling and the big radial for top end. I just can't wield it yet. It also seems to be a bit short on climb rate (exception for the C-Hawg? - I don't spend perks much). Anyway, I figure you can answer those questions since you seem to know what you're doing with that thing.

 :salute Zilla.  Thanks for the kind words but I'm in the same boat as you believe me, there's guys in here shoot me down most every time I fight them, so it's a bit of a vicious cycle :)  But it's always fun fighting them.

I don't use TrackIR but I have heard of issues with it and the the hog.  Discussion about it right now in Help & Training in fact-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,284094.0.html

You're right about the climb rate though, it's bad in all the hogs ( except for the perked F4U-4, which really has no weaknesses.) The C-Hog is perked only because of its guns - 4 20MM cannon.  It's actually a little bit slower than the 1A.  The acceleration isn't that great in the hogs either.

I'm still a student of the plane but in short you need some speed when entering a fight.  That way you can hang with him when he goes up.  If you don't have the speed though it's not much of a problem fighting from behind, as the hog is great at dodging and barrel-rolling.   Just blow through the merge, get some speed up and start working him off your 6. The main issue there is having the discipline not to get suckered into a rope by climbing for a shot. you can't make.  I find I only learn that by bitter experience  :cry

Hope that helps.    Cya up sir.
<<S>>
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: saantana on February 24, 2010, 11:48:40 PM
I possibly being the biggest spit 16 dweeb in the game hereby give my answer to this thread.

(http://ahdywizjon308.servegame.org:8000/fileDownload.php?filename=634024404917410670-isayuntothee.jpg&system_name=repository_file_300)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: uptown on February 25, 2010, 07:44:03 AM
Last night a dedicated spixteen pilot got his arse handed to him by a spit9 in 2 turns :lol The 16 doesn't need a perk value but that spit9.....wow! What a beast that thing is  :rock
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: caldera on February 25, 2010, 08:05:06 AM
None of the Spits should be perked.

Instead, there should be a "Hispano Tax" of $1 for every sortie flown with Hispano-equipped aircraft.  That money could go into development of aircraft that don't have those horrible things.  :)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 25, 2010, 08:15:22 AM
Last night a dedicated spixteen pilot got his arse handed to him by a spit9 in 2 turns :lol The 16 doesn't need a perk value but that spit9.....wow! What a beast that thing is  :rock

I killed an F4u-1D from a Spit IX last night. He was hassling one of my countrymen. It was pretty easy to latch under and behind. Those hawgs can't see back there. Then I just maneuvered until I was within 200yds and he went all crumply-like. I was short on ammo and fuel by the time that occurred so I put the nose down and got out of the fur. Busted a buff with one too, though that is my least-loved task for the type - and for obvious reasons.

Damn dangerous bird, that Spit IX... and with an ENY of 20, it perks you pretty well, I think... though I admit to approximately zero knowledge of the interaction b/w perkies and the ENY of the ac from which you score.

Can we just reduce this whole thing to absurdity any more? Perhaps we should perk the P40E. It's so scary.



Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on February 25, 2010, 08:43:45 AM
None of the Spits should be perked.

Instead, there should be a "Hispano Tax" of $1 for every sortie flown with Hispano-equipped aircraft.  That money could go into development of aircraft that don't have those horrible things.  :)
Or you could just remove all the British aircraft from after 1940 and all the P-38s and all of the players who like those aircraft.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: guncrasher on February 25, 2010, 06:23:39 PM
Last night a dedicated spixteen pilot got his arse handed to him by a spit9 in 2 turns :lol The 16 doesn't need a perk value but that spit9.....wow! What a beast that thing is  :rock

most people think spit16 are 109's with hispanos on it.  give a spit8 or 9 a little e and you better think twice about roping.  I specially like the p38's that get too confident try to rope and end up watching their tail pass them by on the way down  :D.


semp

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: LLogann on February 26, 2010, 01:14:45 AM
We'd still have the Mossie!!!!  Screw the SAPPERS!!!!!   :x

Or you could just remove all the British aircraft from after 1940 and all the P-38s and all of the players who like those aircraft.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on February 27, 2010, 02:14:23 AM
SPITFIRES = WIN

End of discussion
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: firemike on February 28, 2010, 12:49:49 PM
With the subject of the good pilot is deadly in a spit theory in mind...a





I would like to point out that a lot of pilots in AH are very good



so i agree that spit 16s should be perked 









Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on February 28, 2010, 11:38:05 PM
With the subject of the good pilot is deadly in a spit theory in mind...a





I would like to point out that a lot of pilots in AH are very good



so i agree that spit 16s should be perked 











BUT, 80% of the pilots in this game are not so good. So they need a killer to make them usefuil and tough
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Tec on March 01, 2010, 06:22:51 AM
Yea, so don't take away pacman's free crutch!
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: DOUG on March 01, 2010, 03:46:03 PM
 :lol the dweeb14 @5k and below (where Most of the fights occur) is one of , if not THE easiest planes to kill in game. If its above 5k, just dive and fight it on the deck. Sure its uber way the h@ll up there, but remember, there is NO intelligent life above 7k :neener:   elfy     
sorry, I responded after readin just the 1st page with the spit14 comments.Laughin so hard 4got thread was aboot the spixteen
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: saantana on March 01, 2010, 04:15:29 PM
With the subject of the good pilot is deadly in a spit theory in mind...a





I would like to point out that a lot of pilots in AH are very good



so i agree that spit 16s should be perked 











 :huh
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Masherbrum on March 01, 2010, 05:10:46 PM
With the subject of the good pilot is deadly in a spit theory in mind...a

I would like to point out that a lot of pilots in AH are very good

so i agree that spit 16s should be perked 

You and the OP need to head to the Training Arena's and learn ACM and try to improve your game play.   Spixteens do not need to be perked.   
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: RTHolmes on March 01, 2010, 05:26:17 PM
:lol the dweeb14 @5k and below (where Most of the fights occur) is one of , if not THE easiest planes to kill in game. If its above 5k, just dive and fight it on the deck. Sure its uber way the h@ll up there, but remember, there is NO intelligent life above 7k :neener:   elfy     
sorry, I responded after readin just the 1st page with the spit14 comments.Laughin so hard 4got thread was aboot the spixteen

err the XIV is a fair bit faster than the XVI and climbs very slightly better too under 5k ....
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 01, 2010, 10:04:04 PM
The is true, but what is relevant is what they have in AH.  In AH the Spitfire Mk IX is powered by a Merlin 61 and the Spitfire Mk VIII is powered by a Merlin 66.  Incidentally, the Spitfire Mk XVI is also powered by a Merlin 66 in AH, not the Merlin 266 it should have and is thus really a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe.
What i think they should really do is shove the Merlin 266 into the spixteen and then perk it. otherwise ill take the 300 cannon fodder noobs in spixteens flying below me in my yak or zeke and me blowing them up anyday.
err the XIV is a fair bit faster than the XVI and climbs very slightly better too under 5k ....
true but its still really hard to handle in the style of fights that happen under that altitude. i even dove out of a fight at 10k, think it was with betty and her friggn typh... and still got chased down by a SPIT V and shot down... unperk the spit 14 like they unperked that stupid Ta152
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: DOUG on March 02, 2010, 09:46:01 AM
err the XIV is a fair bit faster than the XVI and climbs very slightly better too under 5k ....
   cc but it cant turn 4crap down low, atleast not good ENOUGH to survive, atleast not the ones Ive come across :D   elfy
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: saantana on March 02, 2010, 11:05:21 AM
I shall repeat

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Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 02, 2010, 12:05:25 PM
and still got chased down by a SPIT V and shot down...

Unless the Spitfire V had an overwhelming energy/altitude advantage over you, there is no way one could have caught you in a Spitfire Mk XIV unless you screwed the pooch and seriously messed up.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on March 02, 2010, 03:08:20 PM
I see people hating on spits all the time.

But In fact they are not what gets me worried. I actually like seing a spit because I can outfly and outturn him in MY spit.

I get more worried by Typhoons and 190s. Picktard planes which just run. THAT is what I hate.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: THRASH99 on March 02, 2010, 05:31:41 PM
First off, 190s and typhoons can't turn, climb, and can stall, unlike spit 16, they don't match at all. Obviously you like seeing spits because your a spit tard and can't fily something worth fighting in, something actually challenging, and has to fly what other people fly just to think your good. That's what your problem is
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 02, 2010, 06:34:52 PM
First off, 190s and typhoons can't turn, climb, and can stall, unlike spit 16, they don't match at all. Obviously you like seeing spits because your a spit tard and can't fily something worth fighting in, something actually challenging, and has to fly what other people fly just to think your good. That's what your problem is

Most of those that laughed at you in this thread (including me) don't fly Spitfires nor, unlike you, afraid of them that we demand they be perked.

Your comment, "Obviously you like seeing spits because your a spit tard and can't fily (sic) something worth fighting in, something actually challenging, and has to fly what other people fly just to think your good. That's what your problem is" is especially funny considering that the two fighters you have the most kills in are the La-7 and P-51D.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on March 02, 2010, 07:03:27 PM
First off, 190s and typhoons can't turn, climb, and can stall, unlike spit 16, they don't match at all. Obviously you like seeing spits because your a spit tard and can't fily something worth fighting in, something actually challenging, and has to fly what other people fly just to think your good. That's what your problem is
If you want to show how good you are, try something that can't bug out at will and yet doesn't have the energy building strength of a Spitfire.  Try spending a tour in something like the Bf109G-6, P-38G, F4F-4, Bf110G-2 (air-to-air only), Mosquito Mk VI (air-to-air only) or Ki-61-I-Tei.

Don't even begin to think you are in a morally superior position to rag on people when you use the La-7 and P-51D as your mounts of choice.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on March 02, 2010, 11:37:03 PM
First off, 190s and typhoons can't turn, climb, and can stall, unlike spit 16, they don't match at all. Obviously you like seeing spits because your a spit tard and can't fily something worth fighting in, something actually challenging, and has to fly what other people fly just to think your good. That's what your problem is

this 38G tard, likes fighting Spit 16s and can't see any reason to perk em.  Then again I like trying my luck against most anything since I don't really die and planes are free.  And yes anyone who gets most of his kills in an LA or 51D, really can't complain.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on March 03, 2010, 03:39:58 AM
I still want to see this mysterious non stalling spit 16 everyone is talking about  :lol
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Boozeman on March 03, 2010, 07:29:15 AM
I still want to see this mysterious non stalling spit 16 everyone is talking about  :lol

Here you go:

Spit16 (http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-vreckova/film1.ahf)

Haven't flown the Spit16 for ages. Just hopped in, and had no problem to ride the (very gentle and very low) "stall" limit. Piece of cake, and vastly easier than with the other planes I use to fly. I quite certain some regular spit 16 drivers can extract even more out of it. 

109G2 (http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-vreckova/film2.ahf)

Here the same drill in a 109G2. Same approach, ride the stall as aggressively as possible. Much more difficult, the plane departs much quicker and more violently. Recovery is much trickier. I'm no expert to the 109 either, but I'm still may more experienced in it than in the spit. Compared to this, the spit is like on training wheels.


Can the Spit16 be stalled? Yes, but you have to fight it into the stall. Most other planes you have to fight not to stall them. That's the difference.

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on March 03, 2010, 08:03:01 AM
By "fight it into the stall" you mean "pull too far back on the stick" just like in any other aircraft.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on March 03, 2010, 08:03:37 AM
First off, 190s and typhoons can't turn, climb, and can stall, unlike spit 16, they don't match at all. Obviously you like seeing spits because your a spit tard and can't fily something worth fighting in, something actually challenging, and has to fly what other people fly just to think your good. That's what your problem is

I've gone from spending most of my time in a 190-d to now spending most of my time in a Spit VIII or Spit IX. I experiment around to learn and for fun. I prefer both those versions of Spit, in the pure dogfight, to the XVI. However, neither of those ac provide me the potential for rapid entry and exit the D-9 offered. Since you fly the 51 and La-7, you should appreciate that.

Here, we doubtless get to the source of your beef: you can't turnfight your 51 (even with flaps) or your LA against Spits especially well, right? Same is true for the D-9. I asked the question in annother thread, for all the old hands to answer: at a low alt Co-E merge with equivalent pilots, how often will  a D-9 win against a Spit XVI? Most of the old sticks will tell you that such a scenario doesn't look good for the D-9 pilot.

OTOH, which ac would you rather take into a high=speed diving pass on the low and slow?

You need to tailor your flying to the aircraft you're sitting in - not to the one you want to beat. That's why, when I fly the D-9, I come in with some smash, drop on the inevitably low and slow Spit, and try to force myself to pull up and clear - even if I miss. That way,  I can climb back up, reset my SA, and try again. That's my goal. However, since my main failing is an unwillingness to break off a target and since my gunnery is spotty, I'll often hang onto that Spit too long, burn my E off, and find myself in a grave tactical situation. Understand, though, that when I'm above a Spit in my D-9, pointed nose down at him, I can easily point my guns at him, no matter how much he turns, by means of the D-9s superior roll rate. The real trick is knowing when to quit, nose back up, and reacquire my alt advantage. I've never been especially afraid of low spits in the d-9... co-alt La's and 51's, otoh, are a serious problem.

Here's a question for you: are you aware that your La can outrun anything on the deck - i.e., that you can escape Spits virtually at will?
You probably already know that you're a much smaller and more damage resistant target, right?

Finally, I'd recommend you spend a bit of stick time in the Spit to learn what it looks like for Spit drivers. You can learn a lot that way - like, my case, how to fly a d-9 better. I'd contrast Thug's and Junky's (if I recall the latter correctly - I think it was Junky - he was hell to try to follow) d-9 style, as an example. Thug gets himself killed because he lets his speed drop, turns too much, and doesn't properly use his roll for evasive. Junky makes a truly elusive high-speed target in a d-9 because he keeps it fast and only uses enough barrel roll to instantaneously frustrate aim - rather than using big roll excursions that only would slow him down. See what it's like trying to fight La's and 51's from the seat of a slow and fragile Spit and you will learn to better exploit those aircraft's strengths.

I'm a grateful and humble student of this game - so put a cork in the orifice that wants to complain, take off the earplugs and blindfold, and you might accidentally learn something out there.  :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Masherbrum on March 03, 2010, 08:07:48 AM
First off, 190s and typhoons can't turn, climb, and can stall, unlike spit 16, they don't match at all. Obviously you like seeing spits because your a spit tard and can't fily something worth fighting in, something actually challenging, and has to fly what other people fly just to think your good. That's what your problem is

I'll put myself in a Ki-61 against whichever you choose.   Then I'll hop in an La7 and show you how 5% of the Arena can show it's true capabilities.  La7 is "easy mode" for me, because I had two excellent teachers.   Which is why I only up one when a base is being vultched.  
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on March 03, 2010, 01:18:08 PM
Here you go:

Spit16 (http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-vreckova/film1.ahf)

Haven't flown the Spit16 for ages. Just hopped in, and had no problem to ride the (very gentle and very low) "stall" limit. Piece of cake, and vastly easier than with the other planes I use to fly. I quite certain some regular spit 16 drivers can extract even more out of it.  

109G2 (http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-vreckova/film2.ahf)

Here the same drill in a 109G2. Same approach, ride the stall as aggressively as possible. Much more difficult, the plane departs much quicker and more violently. Recovery is much trickier. I'm no expert to the 109 either, but I'm still may more experienced in it than in the spit. Compared to this, the spit is like on training wheels.


Can the Spit16 be stalled? Yes, but you have to fight it into the stall. Most other planes you have to fight not to stall them. That's the difference.



Hehe Thanks Boozeman but my comment wasn't ment serious, as a stick from a squad whose primary rides are the Spitfires I know quite well what they can and can't do, how to fight in them and how to beat them  ;)
I just find it funny that people need to resort to perking a plane and make hilarious claims that it is unstallable etc just cause they aren't man enough to adapt and overcome, it's much easier to squeak, cry and whine about a problem then to make an effort in solving it.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Boozeman on March 03, 2010, 03:07:47 PM
Hehe Thanks Boozeman but my comment wasn't ment serious, as a stick from a squad whose primary rides are the Spitfires I know quite well what they can and can't do, how to fight in them and how to beat them  ;)
I just find it funny that people need to resort to perking a plane and make hilarious claims that it is unstallable etc just cause they aren't man enough to adapt and overcome, it's much easier to squeak, cry and whine about a problem then to make an effort in solving it.

I seriously suggest to get out of that Spit for a week or so, and then seriously stick to a 205, 190A5, P-39 etc. or if you like it extreme, 190F8. Then go back to the Spitfire. I think after that those hilarois claims will look quite a bit less hilarious.  ;) 
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on March 03, 2010, 03:11:46 PM
I seriously suggest to get out of that Spit for a week or so, and then seriously stick to a 205, 190A5, P-39 etc. or if you like it extreme, 190F8. Then go back to the Spitfire. I think after that those hilarois claims will look quite a bit less hilarious.  ;)  

Booze some of my most favorite rides are the 109 series and the P38, just cause I like to fly Spits doesnt mean I limit myself to them :)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Boozeman on March 03, 2010, 03:31:57 PM
By "fight it into the stall" you mean "pull too far back on the stick" just like in any other aircraft.

No. The difference is that the threshold between "still ok" and "pulled to hard" is very wide on the Spitfire, This makes it very easy to ride the stall and small errors in stick modulation are not enough to trigger a departure. And even if you go too far, the departure is mild and instantly corrected with opposite aileron imput. These features make the spit indeed difficult to stall, bacause in a sense you have to screw it up on purpose to push it into a serious stall.

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Boozeman on March 03, 2010, 03:40:11 PM
Booze some of my most favorite rides are the 109 series and the P38, just cause I like to fly Spits doesnt mean I limit myself to them :)


Well, I see... now since you have also eperience in the 109 series, don't you think that later 109s are much more difficult at riding the stall and are more prone to violent departures than the later Spit models? 
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: waystin2 on March 03, 2010, 03:43:49 PM
Well, I see... now since you have also eperience in the 109 series, don't you think that later 109s are much more difficult at riding the stall and are more prone to violent departures than the later Spit models? 

The 8 & 14 can be vicious in their own way when riding the stall point.  The 16 is different animal, not perk-worthy but certainly harder to stall out.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on March 03, 2010, 03:47:00 PM
Well, I see... now since you have also eperience in the 109 series, don't you think that later 109s are much more difficult at riding the stall and are more prone to violent departures than the later Spit models?  

Yes absolutly I never doubted that. You missed my point the Spit 16 is a very good aircraft but it isn't unbeatable.

Try the Spit 14 if you want a Spit that is more prone to violent departures ;)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 03, 2010, 06:59:06 PM
Unless the Spitfire V had an overwhelming energy/altitude advantage over you, there is no way one could have caught you in a Spitfire Mk XIV unless you screwed the pooch and seriously messed up.


ack-ack
sorry man i meant VIII.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 03, 2010, 08:03:23 PM
sorry man i meant VIII.

You do know that the VIII and the XVI share the same engine and only around 5mph slower at similiar altitudes, right?  The VIII is basically a XVI that's just a little more pudgy (approx. 350lb heavier) than its cousin and without the clipped wings.  Easily explains how one was able to catch you.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 03, 2010, 08:41:04 PM
sorry. ik it seems like im trying to drag this out but i dove from 10k the spitVIII was around 2-3k below me climbing when i dove. so either he had more E than me at the start or i didnt have wep on but im still saying the XIV should be unperked cuz it cant turn like the others and when you get to an alt that you can use it there isnt enough fuel to last up high
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on March 03, 2010, 08:52:06 PM
No. The difference is that the threshold between "still ok" and "pulled to hard" is very wide on the Spitfire, This makes it very easy to ride the stall and small errors in stick modulation are not enough to trigger a departure. And even if you go too far, the departure is mild and instantly corrected with opposite aileron imput. These features make the spit indeed difficult to stall, bacause in a sense you have to screw it up on purpose to push it into a serious stall.


Spits in reality also gave very advanced warnings of an approaching stall.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Boozeman on March 04, 2010, 06:08:21 AM
Yes absolutly I never doubted that. You missed my point the Spit 16 is a very good aircraft but it isn't unbeatable.

Try the Spit 14 if you want a Spit that is more prone to violent departures ;)

Well it seems we both missed each others points somehow.  ;)

All I wanted to say is that the ridiculous claims of non-stalling Spitfires are (at least for me) somehow understandble from a certain viewpoint. Before my P-39 addiction, I extensively used the C.205 - compared to the Spits, the Spits indeed seem "unstallable", since at points where the 205 is already struggling badly, the Spit still flies like a dream. And the 205 in not even the worst of the lot, by any means. 

And yes, the 14 is the odd exception of the bunch.   :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Boozeman on March 04, 2010, 06:13:22 AM
Spits in reality also gave very advanced warnings of an approaching stall.

No doubt about that. It's one of the reasons it does not stall like any other aircraft, at least if we take a more detailed view on it than the simple black/white approach.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on March 04, 2010, 06:16:02 AM
Well it seems we both missed each others points somehow.  ;)

All I wanted to say is that the ridiculous claims of non-stalling Spitfires are (at least for me) somehow understandble from a certain viewpoint. Before my P-39 addiction, I extensively used the C.205 - compared to the Spits, the Spits indeed seem "unstallable", since at points where the 205 is already struggling badly, the Spit still flies like a dream. And the 205 in not even the worst of the lot, by any means. 

And yes, the 14 is the odd exception of the bunch.   :D

I had a discussion about this topic yesterday with a squadmate and he brought up a good point.
Maybe the reason many guys perceive the Spit 16 as unstallable is because the guy has his stall limiter on which might explain the magical nonstalling properties but also gives you a way to beat that guy by knowing that he won't be able to use the full performance of his aircraft and by flying yours to the edge of its performance you will beat him.

Spitfires have a very nasty inverted stall with the limiter off and the only way to get out of it is turning your engine off and enough alt for the plane to recover.

I personally think that the elliptical wings are the key to the Spits dream like flying characteristics.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on March 04, 2010, 06:43:37 AM
I had a discussion about this topic yesterday with a squadmate and he brought up a good point.
Maybe the reason many guys perceive the Spit 16 as unstallable is because the guy has his stall limiter on which might explain the magical nonstalling properties but also gives you a way to beat that guy by knowing that he won't be able to use the full performance of his aircraft and by flying yours to the edge of its performance you will beat him.

Spitfires have a very nasty inverted stall with the limiter off and the only way to get out of it is turning your engine off and enough alt for the plane to recover.

I personally think that the elliptical wings are the key to the Spits dream like flying characteristics.

All the elliptical wing does is give you the magical elliptical lift distribution. That helps minimize induced drag - typically over a 5-15% improvement over a straight wing with finite lift at the tips. It's all about tip vortices, this reduction. Tip vortices? Yes - lift is a pressure diff acting an an area. If your tip section is producing lift, you've got a pressure diff across it and pressure diffs cause flow, in this case from bottom to top around thetip and continuously as you fly. This doesn't obtain for those Spits with the elliptical planform but probably does obtain for the XVI, the bludgeon of the bunch, as I would call it.

I'd attribute the dream-like low-speed characteristics of the Spit to advantageous wingloading and generous control surfaces, but then, I'm a reality-based kind of guy.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Bruv119 on March 04, 2010, 07:07:33 AM

I personally think that the elliptical wings are the key to the Spits dream like flying characteristics.


Mitchell was a genius!    Thank god he was British.    :angel:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on March 04, 2010, 10:55:36 AM


I personally think that the elliptical wings are the key to the Spits dream like flying characteristics.

And, in addition to my post above, consider the following counterpoint, also equipped with an elliptical wing: P-47 (oink, oink)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on March 04, 2010, 11:28:45 AM
And, in addition to my post above, consider the following counterpoint, also equipped with an elliptical wing: P-47 (oink, oink)

Check the wing loading differences on the Spit and Jug. Might explain things a but
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Viperius on March 04, 2010, 11:45:00 AM
And, in addition to my post above, consider the following counterpoint, also equipped with an elliptical wing: P-47 (oink, oink)

Yes but the Spit fuselage is slender and slim compared to the flying brick P-47  :lol
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on March 04, 2010, 12:04:03 PM
Yes but the Spit fuselage is slender and slim compared to the flying brick P-47  :lol

I have no doubt there is incremental drag associated with the big radial-equipped pig.

At this point, though, I'd like to remind you that your assertion was that the ellipitcal planform was the source of the Spit's "magic". You've just conceded that there's more to it than that.

I'd also remark that the induced drag dain from the eld is not of a piece with what is very likely a lower Cd overall w/r the flying pig - since the two share that characteristic; the eld.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on March 04, 2010, 01:14:25 PM
I have no doubt there is incremental drag associated with the big radial-equipped pig.

At this point, though, I'd like to remind you that your assertion was that the ellipitcal planform was the source of the Spit's "magic". You've just conceded that there's more to it than that.

I'd also remark that the induced drag dain from the eld is not of a piece with what is very likely a lower Cd overall w/r the flying pig - since the two share that characteristic; the eld.

The thinness of the Spit wing also helped along with the low wingloading.  It wasn't that far from a Cessna in wing loading and the large elliptical wing contributed to that. Remember it was a Spit XI tested at Farnborough that reached the highest speed for a straight wing fighter going downhill.

Talk to anyone who flew Spits for real and they'll tell you that they were very forgiving airplanes that gave a lot of warning before they departed.  This changed over time as the weight of the Spit increased with the larger engines etc and the Griffon birds in particular took lots of trimming.

But the guys who flew Spits will tell you that the early Spits in particular, the I, II, V were very pleasant aircraft to fly.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on March 04, 2010, 02:49:02 PM
The thinness of the Spit wing also helped along with the low wingloading. 

I'll buy that - the thing seems to, in general, have nice low drag numbers. I'd love to see some comparative Cd data. The Spit seems to hold energy well due to it's low-loss config. - a sense I don't get from, for example, the Hawg (not to be confused with "the Pig"). I'd also say that thin wings mean a weaker structure in bending -but then, we know this, right? It was one of the first things I ever did with a Spit XIV in the TA: climb to 20k, dive to about 500 mph, and pull back hard.

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: THRASH99 on March 04, 2010, 05:48:28 PM
If you want to show how good you are, try something that can't bug out at will and yet doesn't have the energy building strength of a Spitfire.  Try spending a tour in something like the Bf109G-6, P-38G, F4F-4, Bf110G-2 (air-to-air only), Mosquito Mk VI (air-to-air only) or Ki-61-I-Tei.

Don't even begin to think you are in a morally superior position to rag on people when you use the La-7 and P-51D as your mounts of choice.
Do they turn like spit 16, no they don't, they actually have to use flaps unlike this stupid plane. You barely have to pull on the joystick and your already around on the guy, which is pretty retarted for anyone that HAS TO FLY THIS just to get kills.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: THRASH99 on March 04, 2010, 05:52:30 PM
Do they turn like spit 16, no they don't, they actually have to use flaps unlike this stupid plane. You barely have to pull on the joystick and your already around on the guy, which is pretty retarted for anyone that HAS TO FLY THIS just to get kills.
Plus, I only use La-7 in the Dueling Arena to fight the idiots who fly tempest and spit 16 in there, When I come into the Main Arena, I'm all about P-51D, something that actually takes skill to fly.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 04, 2010, 06:11:43 PM
which is pretty retarted for anyone that HAS TO FLY THIS just to get kills.

The same can be said for the person that has to fly a La-7 or P-51D to get their kills.  I wonder out of the 13 or so kills you have in both planes, how many of them were 1v1 fights or you just picking others while they were engaged with another bandit?  I'm willing to bet that 100% of your kills were derived from this way.  Basically, you have no leg to stand on and each post from you is just a case of the kettle calling the pot black.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 04, 2010, 06:19:12 PM
Plus, I only use La-7 in the Dueling Arena to fight the idiots who fly tempest and spit 16 in there

Not true. You fly the La-7 in the late war arenas as well, don't lie and claim otherwise.  It is very easy to check to see what plane you've flown each tour.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on March 04, 2010, 09:03:29 PM
P-51D...... skill plane?

 :rofl

Fastest and one of the heaviest fighters in the game. There is a reason it is named 'The Runstang'
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: guncrasher on March 05, 2010, 12:27:33 AM
P-51D...... skill plane?

 :rofl

Fastest and one of the heaviest fighters in the game. There is a reason it is named 'The Runstang'

anything faster than a spit is a runner :D.   most people that claim runner planes require more skill dont actually fly it to their best they just use them to pick and run.

but seriously the reason most guys think the spit has a never ending e, is because they try to rope in a heavier plane with the same e or just slightly higher.  spit will eat you alive, i get lots of kills like that, some wise guy will try to rope and boom, they're gone. i have come up behind some guys as far as 3k and I end up 200 behind them at the top of the loop. but most of the time i wont go up unless they're around 1.5 to 2k in front of me and for the p38 even less.  and there has been many times that I see somebody try to rope a spit, i'll come up from higher alt or with more e and kill them, then they'll start complaining on 200 about how it was an impossible kill.  when its just a different spit that got them.  I laugh so hard that I nearly piss in my pants when they start claiming that.  perking the spit16 would just be a waste of time.  really like perking the m4.  everybody that knows how to use them effectively can afford the 4 to 6 perks that it takes to use one. 

semp
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on March 05, 2010, 12:29:11 AM
anything faster than a spit is a runner :D.
Not true.  Bf109G-14s, Bf109K-4s, F4Us and Yak-9Us are all faster than the Spitfire Mk XVI, yet I don't see any consensus that they are runners.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on March 05, 2010, 03:59:15 AM
109s are.

Yaks and F4us not so much.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Masherbrum on March 05, 2010, 08:47:50 AM
Do they turn like spit 16, no they don't, they actually have to use flaps unlike this stupid plane. You barely have to pull on the joystick and your already around on the guy, which is pretty retarted for anyone that HAS TO FLY THIS just to get kills.

*snicker*
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Masherbrum on March 05, 2010, 08:52:38 AM
Not true. You fly the La-7 in the late war arenas as well, don't lie and claim otherwise.  It is very easy to check to see what plane you've flown each tour.


ack-ack

That will leave a mark.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: guncrasher on March 05, 2010, 06:19:42 PM
109s are.

Yaks and F4us not so much.

all the yaks  will do is try high speed circles ( you know the c205 thingy ), when that doesn't work, they will dive and run like hell.  same for f4u's except f4u will hover above everybody and pick or try to rope then dive away and run.  there's a few people that will actually dogfite in fast planes f4u's, la7's p38's, ponies, etc. but most will run when encountering the spits.  somebody really wants to show some skill, get a spit, hurricane, zero or whichever plane you prefer get a couple of kills and survive without running.  now that's skill.  not just roping or picking a bunch of guys, that's just patience (boring, I call it).   but perk or no perk some people are glad when they see a spit around to save/help when needed  :aok.

semp
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on March 05, 2010, 06:33:45 PM
Since when is the P-38 a "fast" plane?  If the P-38 is on the list of fast planes, then the Mk XVI is most assuredly there too.  As is the Ki-84.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: ink on March 05, 2010, 06:39:14 PM
all the yaks  will do is try high speed circles ( you know the c205 thingy ), when that doesn't work, they will dive and run like hell.  same for f4u's except f4u will hover above everybody and pick or try to rope then dive away and run.  there's a few people that will actually dogfite in fast planes f4u's, la7's p38's, ponies, etc. but most will run when encountering the spits.  somebody really wants to show some skill, get a spit, hurricane, zero or whichever plane you prefer get a couple of kills and survive without running.  now that's skill.  not just roping or picking a bunch of guys, that's just patience (boring, I call it).   but perk or no perk some people are glad when they see a spit around to save/help when needed  :aok.

semp

even if you do this they will, complain your in  hurri, and when you attack numbers they still complain :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on March 05, 2010, 07:07:44 PM
even if you do this they will, complain your in  hurri, and when you attack numbers they still complain :rolleyes:
You do know that you can be aggressive without using luftberry circle tactics, yes?

Most P-51 drivers are unaware of that and instead "extend" a sector or two.  They don't gain adequate separation to initiate their next attack, they run until the "target" gives up and turns for something else.  The best thing for them is to actually wait for the "target" to engage in another fight.  If they get the "target" like that they crow on 200 about how skilled they are.  If the get shot down, they make excuses about the "target" flying an "easymode" airplane.

I have killed many of them by chasing for a short time, then turning and presenting my 6 to them to get them to turn around.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: ink on March 05, 2010, 07:10:30 PM
You do know that you can be aggressive without using luftberry circle tactics, yes?

Most P-51 drivers are unaware of that and instead "extend" a sector or two.  They don't gain adequate separation to initiate their next attack, they run until the "target" gives up and turns for something else.  The best thing for them is to actually wait for the "target" to engage in another fight.  If they get the "target" like that they crow on 200 about how skilled they are.  If the get shot down, they make excuses about the "target" flying an "easymode" airplane.

I have killed many of them by chasing for a short time, then turning and presenting my 6 to them to get them to turn around.

of course :aok
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on March 07, 2010, 10:08:18 AM
You do know that you can be aggressive without using luftberry circle tactics, yes?


Not to give you a hard time, K, but I feel compelled to correct this "luftberry" thing, since it's turning into common parlance and is inaccurate. The correct spelling is "Lufbery" with a cap and no t, no second r (it's not a breakfast cereal), so named after famous Lafayette Escadrille pilot Raoul Lufbery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Lufbery
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: RTHolmes on March 07, 2010, 10:31:32 AM
seems to be a bit of confusion over the usage of lufbery (circle) too.  A "lufbery circle" is a circling the wagons defensive technique for buffs or other slow aircraft, and is so easily defeated as to be almost worthless in AH. A single aircraft cannot perform a "lufbery circle".

I hear people refer to "a lufbery" while in 1v1s and never quite sure what they mean. chandelle maybe? or perhaps a sustained spiral climb? :headscratch:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: WMLute on March 07, 2010, 12:15:10 PM
Always bugged me as well.

One plane can not do a lufberry.

(http://airwarrior.afkamm.co.uk/AirCombat/lufberry1.gif)

(http://airwarrior.afkamm.co.uk/AirCombat/lufberry2.gif)


I'm curious what move Karnak thinks a Lufberry is.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: THRASH99 on March 07, 2010, 02:21:16 PM
Not true. You fly the La-7 in the late war arenas as well, don't lie and claim otherwise.  It is very easy to check to see what plane you've flown each tour.


ack-ack
I use it when the stupid ENY is to high, but I'm not a person who flys it all day long, plus I can't even see out of the damn thing, the engine takes up some of your view
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: THRASH99 on March 07, 2010, 02:25:00 PM
P-51D...... skill plane?

 :rofl

Fastest and one of the heaviest fighters in the game. There is a reason it is named 'The Runstang'
If you haven't noticed, most of the tards who fly P-51 in the Main Arena suck. There are only 10% of the pilots who actually know how to dogfight in it without having to ho and/or pick. That's why when you see the tards flying, they'll always run from you, unlike a good pilot, he'll turn back around to engage and not run like a wimp.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: gpwurzel on March 07, 2010, 02:34:16 PM
Man, this has GOT to be a windup.

So let me get this right, whoever flies the spit xvi is a tard, because they keep shooting you down, whilst by your own admission you only fly the la7 and the p51? Both planes are fast, good guns (once you get used to the la7 anyway) but you feel the need to insult the newbies who fly the 16 (not even going into the vet flying it debate).

Exactly what would you like them to fly? The xvi gives them a fighting chance, its not a wonder bird, it can be outflown by a lot of planes ingame already, but it does give newer players a fighting chance. Without the newer players sticking around, all your going to run into is vets, who, trust me on this, will hand you your head in a very short space of time (not including myself in this area btw, cant fly to save me life). This will lead to other players leaving as they cant beat the really good sticks, and the game runs the risk of stagnation. Not something I'd look forward too personally.


I salute whoever this really is lol..........


Wurzel

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 07, 2010, 02:45:10 PM
seems to be a bit of confusion over the usage of lufbery (circle) too.  A "lufbery circle" is a circling the wagons defensive technique for buffs or other slow aircraft, and is so easily defeated as to be almost worthless in AH. A single aircraft cannot perform a "lufbery circle".

I hear people refer to "a lufbery" while in 1v1s and never quite sure what they mean. chandelle maybe? or perhaps a sustained spiral climb? :headscratch:

People use "Lufbery" to describe a one circle fight between two planes, i.e. two planes chasing each other in a circle.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 07, 2010, 02:47:40 PM
If you haven't noticed, most of the tards who fly P-51 in the Main Arena suck. There are only 10% of the pilots who actually know how to dogfight in it without having to ho and/or pick. That's why when you see the tards flying, they'll always run from you, unlike a good pilot, he'll turn back around to engage and not run like a wimp.

Looking at your stats, I would say that you're one of 'the 'tards who why fly P-51 in the Main Arena suck" yourself.  Remember, when you point fingers, you have four pointing right back at you.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on March 07, 2010, 03:44:12 PM
People use "Lufbery" to describe a one circle fight between two planes, i.e. two planes chasing each other in a circle.


ack-ack
This is the context I was using it in.  I know it is not correct, but it has been come the term used on this forum for a horizontal turn fight.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: stodd on March 07, 2010, 03:58:20 PM
Spixteen is easy mode, but I wouldn't go as far as perking it.... *Ducks*
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 07, 2010, 05:05:24 PM
This is the context I was using it in.  I know it is not correct, but it has been come the term used on this forum for a horizontal turn fight.

It's been used to describe a one circle tail chase even back as far as AW.  We tend to "evolve" a word in the flight sim community, like we've done with "buff".  We use that word when we're talking about any bomber even though "buff" is an acronym that is specific to the B-52.  Lufbery is the same, and when someone uses in the proper context it will usually be written as a 'defensive lufbery'.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 08, 2010, 12:38:31 AM
all the yaks  will do is try high speed circles ( you know the c205 thingy ), when that doesn't work, they will dive and run like hell.  same for f4u's except f4u will hover above everybody and pick or try to rope then dive away and run.  there's a few people that will actually dogfite in fast planes f4u's, la7's p38's, ponies, etc. but most will run when encountering the spits.  somebody really wants to show some skill, get a spit, hurricane, zero or whichever plane you prefer get a couple of kills and survive without running.  now that's skill.  not just roping or picking a bunch of guys, that's just patience (boring, I call it).   but perk or no perk some people are glad when they see a spit around to save/help when needed  :aok.

semp
ok. two things, a good pilot will go in with a hurri or a spit or a zero AND leave to land with those kills not just "survive". and btw, the patience tactic aka what you say is picking can be achieved by ALL 3 of these aircraft listed... I usually fly to 20k in a zeke then pick 1 or 2 before i turnfight the rest, usually this tactic will work if ur alone and can also be done by the "picker" planes like ponies and jugs. A good pilot knows his fight be it agressive or offensive or defensive etc etc etc... also, it helps if you got a wingman to assist you when youre rtb. im great in a zeke but almost always its the pilots around me that deserve the credit for me landing my kills.  :salute to all the pilots who got people's backs
modify: btw, the spit16 should stay unperked unless HTC decides to add the 266 merlin into it instead of their game version merlin 66
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ruah on March 08, 2010, 01:03:57 AM
What, so if I fly a Spit, or a yak, or a f4u, or anything other then a hurry or a zero and I manage to pull a win - then its because the plane is good?  Srsly, if people really feel that these planes are overpowered for some reason then they can easliy just fly them.  There is no one stopping you.

I fly planes because I like their histories and because I like the challange not because I'm Min/Maxing with internet airplanes - its no big deal for me to get killed by a spit or whatever - its not like I am losing anything by dying.  And I certainly do not come here crying about it (I don't even keep 200 open - it makes me sick how much emo crap is going on in there). 

Should the spit 16 be perked?  Well, that ends with the LA-7, P-51, the K4 and a few other planes getting perked - and even then, people will still find the 'best' and call people who fly those noobs, cheaters, whatevers.  It will happen once WWI planes are released too - it happens in every combat mmo I have ever played in.  I don't fly the Yak because its a challange - I fly it because its a very frustrating plane to fly, and I get satisfaction from doing it well - that does not make me leet, it makes me lucky.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 08, 2010, 01:09:05 AM
you can fly a yak get kills and not be lucky ruah, look at chanzz and chewi for instance.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on March 08, 2010, 04:56:46 AM
I like to use myself as an example.

You put me in the same aircraft as you and I can more than likely beat you. Put me in a Spit 16 I can beat almost everyone in the game ( Allowing for Grizz and Bruv and people of the like who rape the living bajesus out of me ).

Does this make me any more of a noob? no. Why?

Because the 38 and 51 pilots who have "skills" land kills by playing the strengths of their aircraft which are speed and picking. I play to the advantage of the Spitfire which is Roll and Turn with fantastic E retention.

I was fighting a brilliant KI pilot the other night, people say that the Spixteen should easily beat it. With an average pilot yes. But a pilot who knows his plane and uses its advantage will ALWAYS win a fight. I beat Spit 16s in a 38 J and G because I use energy tactics.

Pilot not plane, for the bajillionth time in this thread.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: caldera on March 08, 2010, 07:15:32 AM
I like to use myself as an example.

You put me in the same aircraft as you and I can more than likely beat you. Put me in a Spit 16 I can beat almost everyone in the game



Your ego is reaching critical mass.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 08, 2010, 08:09:53 AM
more like his ego is aging like a sun before it supernovas and becomes a black hole and sucks us in... :noid
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on March 08, 2010, 08:14:47 AM
more like his ego is aging like a sun before it supernovas and becomes a black hole and sucks us in... :noid

More like, his ego is coalescing into a solid mass inside a tubelike structure, blocked on one end. In there, it gestates as additional mass arrives via the open end. There it outgases and ferments and grows until a parastaltic process pushes the overlarge size 16 ego painfully out through a size 10 hole.

It is beached at that point and becomes a source of great pride for its author, a noxious, pungent, and unsanitary eyesore for everyone else.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 08, 2010, 08:17:10 AM
More like, his ego is coalescing into a solid mass inside a tubelike structure, blocked on one end. In there, it gestates as additional mass arrives via the open end. There it outgases and ferments and grows until a parastaltic process pushes the overlarge size 16 ego painfully out through a size 10 hole.

It is beached at that point and becomes a source of great pride for its author, a noxious, pungent, and unsanitary eyesore for everyone else.
  :rofl :rofl :rofl i thought i got the peak of the laughter with what i said :aok im still laughing cuz of this... well thought out man!
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Guppy35 on March 08, 2010, 11:03:57 AM
I like to use myself as an example.

You put me in the same aircraft as you and I can more than likely beat you. Put me in a Spit 16 I can beat almost everyone in the game ( Allowing for Grizz and Bruv and people of the like who rape the living bajesus out of me ).

Does this make me any more of a noob? no. Why?

Because the 38 and 51 pilots who have "skills" land kills by playing the strengths of their aircraft which are speed and picking. I play to the advantage of the Spitfire which is Roll and Turn with fantastic E retention.

I was fighting a brilliant KI pilot the other night, people say that the Spixteen should easily beat it. With an average pilot yes. But a pilot who knows his plane and uses its advantage will ALWAYS win a fight. I beat Spit 16s in a 38 J and G because I use energy tactics.

Pilot not plane, for the bajillionth time in this thread.

I'd suggest you not categorize 38 pilots so narrowly.  While I confess I don't land a lot of kills, I sure do enjoy fighting 16s on the deck low and slow in turnfights.  More often then not, it's the 16 that's broken unless he gets help :)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: stodd on March 08, 2010, 11:34:20 AM
I like to use myself as an example.

You put me in the same aircraft as you and I can more than likely beat you. Put me in a Spit 16 I can beat almost everyone in the game ( Allowing for Grizz and Bruv and people of the like who rape the living bajesus out of me ).


:uhoh Bows respectfully.




 :lol
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Kev367th on March 08, 2010, 12:00:41 PM
btw, the spit16 should stay unperked unless HTC decides to add the 266 merlin into it instead of their game version merlin 66

Confused!

A Merlin 266 is a Merlin 66 built in the U.S.
The 2 prefix for all Merlin variants signified a  Merlin built overseas.

ONLY difference is the 266 has a FTH 1000ft higher than the 66, hardly a perkworthy difference.

[edit] Unless you mean 25lbs boost in which case both the the 66 (May/June 44) and the 266 (Dec 44) used it.
Still probably not perkworthy for 5 mins of boost.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 08, 2010, 04:42:33 PM
I like to use myself as an example.

You put me in the same aircraft as you and I can more than likely beat you. Put me in a Spit 16 I can beat almost everyone in the game ( Allowing for Grizz and Bruv and people of the like who rape the living bajesus out of me ).



LOL!  Here I thought Thrash's posts were the funniest ones in this thread but here you come and take the top prize. 


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: morfiend on March 08, 2010, 05:55:33 PM
I'd suggest you not categorize 38 pilots so narrowly.  While I confess I don't land a lot  :)  In 1 piece




     Fixed..................... :devil

Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 08, 2010, 10:15:05 PM
Confused!

A Merlin 266 is a Merlin 66 built in the U.S.
The 2 prefix for all Merlin variants signified a  Merlin built overseas.

ONLY difference is the 266 has a FTH 1000ft higher than the 66, hardly a perkworthy difference.

[edit] Unless you mean 25lbs boost in which case both the the 66 (May/June 44) and the 266 (Dec 44) used it.
Still probably not perkworthy for 5 mins of boost.
but they have the spit 14 with the griffon perked slightly cuz it flies very well up above 20k feet... under that and its raped abused and thrown in dumpsters...
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: uptown on March 09, 2010, 03:31:18 AM
I like to use DBCooper as an example.

You put DBCooper in the same aircraft as you and DBCooper can more than likely beat you. Put DBCooper in a Spit 16 DBCooper can beat almost everyone in the game ( Allowing for DBCooper and Uptown and people of the like who rape the living bajesus out of sheep ).

Does this make DBCooper any more of a noob? no. Why?

Because the 38 and 51 pilots who have "skills" land kills by playing the strengths of their aircraft which are speed and picking. DbCooper play to the advantage of the Spitfire which is Roll and Turn with fantastic E retention.

DBCooper was fighting a brilliant KI pilot the other night, people say that the Spixteen should easily beat it. With an average pilot yes. But a DBCooper who knows his plane and uses its advantage will ALWAYS win a fight. DBCooper beat Spit 16s in a 38 J and G because DBCooper use energy tactics.

Pilot not plane, for the bajillionth time in this thread.
I thank you for the kind words sir <<S>>  :x I fixed it  :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: uptown on March 09, 2010, 03:40:51 AM
I hope Skuzzy locks this before any of you clowns respond  :uhoh :lol
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on March 09, 2010, 07:03:36 AM
I hope Skuzzy locks this before any of you clowns respond  :uhoh :lol

I doubt he'll even consider it. After all, this thread was originally intended to morph into a paean to DBCooper.

I'm sure Plawranc will agree. After all, it seems like, just the other day, I saw DBCooper rogering him in an ACM sort of way. I watched and watched and said, "wow, that beatdown looks as bad as the one Vietnam Jim (Epic Bearded Man) gave that drunken punk on the Oakland bus." I'm just surprised Plawrance copped to being pwn'ed in such bestial fashion. I don't know how I'd feel - probably ashamed and vulnerable...
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: SlapShot on March 09, 2010, 08:23:49 AM
You put me in the same aircraft as you and I can more than likely beat you. Put me in a Spit 16 I can beat almost everyone in the game ( Allowing for Grizz and Bruv and people of the like who rape the living bajesus out of me ).

 :rofl
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: saantana on March 09, 2010, 08:29:26 AM
I can't believe this is still going.

In addition, I didn't know flying around in a cartoon spit 16 caused so much negativity among the n00bs.

It just makes me want to fly it more.  :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: saantana on March 09, 2010, 08:31:35 AM
I like to use myself as an example.

You put me in the same aircraft as you and I can more than likely beat you. Put me in a Spit 16 I can beat almost everyone in the game ( Allowing for Grizz and Bruv and people of the like who rape the living bajesus out of me ).


 :confused:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on March 09, 2010, 10:19:25 AM
I like to use myself as an example.

You put me in the same aircraft as you and I can more than likely beat you. Put me in a Spit 16 I can beat almost everyone in the game ( Allowing for Grizz and Bruv and people of the like who rape the living bajesus out of me ).

Does this make me any more of a noob? no. Why?

Pacman, you're pretty good, I'll give you that, but TBH, if I stuck you in most any plane in the set other than the spitfires, there are a lot of very good players that would have their way with you.  In addition to that fact, there are also quite a few good players that you neglect that would probably have their way with you in spitfires as well.  Not to say you aren't a good pilot, as I have said I consider you to be one after fighting you in the DA, but you are currently very one dimensional.  You essentially are underestimating most the vets in the game as worthy adversaries because you have curb stomped their less uber rides in the MA a time or two.  Fight any of the headhunters in a P38vsP38 and I assure you you will leave a trail of cartoon tears.  Fight any muppet in a 109v109 and you won't win many.  Fight slapshot Fm2vsFm2, Fight WmLute N1kvsN1k, the list goes on.  I could probably name 30 pilots off the top of my head that would be able to easily handle you in 95% of the aircraft in the game.  The only edge you hold in spitfires is familiarity with the aircraft and the disillusioned perception you are accomplishing something when you kill vets in lesser rides.  Okay, that might have been tough to swallow, but I do think you have potential to be really good.  Probably not going to happen though clubbing seals in the MA in Spits and being satisfied with the status quo.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ruah on March 09, 2010, 11:04:29 AM
yah good point -

I would also prefer pilots fighting in spits rather then running or being more shy in a plane that is percived as being less capable. 
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: waystin2 on March 09, 2010, 11:11:48 AM
Perk Grizz! :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 09, 2010, 05:09:51 PM
Perk Grizz! :D
  :rofl if we agree on this then we need to perk pacerr too :aok
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Tec on March 09, 2010, 05:19:01 PM
  :rofl if we agree on this then we need to perk pacerr too :aok

LMAO, this thread is like a perpetual goldmine of LULZ. 
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: waystin2 on March 09, 2010, 05:41:01 PM
  :rofl if we agree on this then we need to perk pacerr too :aok

Different ballpark my friend... :aok
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 09, 2010, 10:18:44 PM
haha agreed on that  :banana:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: perdue3 on March 21, 2010, 09:10:01 PM
Spitfire Mk XIV is, IMO, in the top 3 birds in this game. Ta 152 and Ki-84 right with it. let us not forget the almighty F4U-4. You DO NOT want to see perdweeb in a Spit 14. Spit 16 sucks by the way. New name: Gerber 16. (baby food)



perdweeb
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on March 21, 2010, 09:14:26 PM
uhhhh....perdue.... no. Me262 of course, Me163, tempest beat all of these... Of course include my zero :aok . PonyD and JugM beat the 152 84 and spit XIV... I kick butt in a F4U1C and F4U4 hard to learn compared to the others...
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: JunkyII on March 28, 2010, 02:00:59 PM
Pacman,
If i up a spit 16 in the MA, Im pissed if I lose a 1v1 vs any plane.


easy mode is all
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Threeup on April 27, 2010, 04:53:40 AM
I fly what I want to fly and I want to fly Spits.
Only the ENY decides which model I fly and I don't care to fly a XIV because most fights start at 10K or less, so there's no starting advantage there.
The Seafire just keeps me honest in the E stakes whereas the XVI is a lot more forgiving. I just like the way Spits feel - They do most things pretty well but;
A N1KI will out turn me and has twice as many cannon shells as I do.
A Pony and an LA7 can extend away from me usually and have the abilty to dictate the fight with that speed and ultimately decide if they will fight.
A Zeke or a Hurri will make my Spit look like a carrier in the turn stakes and have superior ammo loadouts.
A P-38 has that stalling thing where they come down and smash me.
A Corsair has that "hang on the prop" act going and I get belted on the way down.
A Yak can out roll me.
190's and 109's have no gun convergence issues to speak of and "laser shoot" from any distance.
So flying a Spit is all about compromise and playing to moderate strengths and not getting sucked in to the other planes fight style - fight your own fight.
That being said - the Noob and Spixteen Noob comments are fairly tame and lame and probably wasted on all but the most insecure of people - save your fingers - the impressionable will probably change planes - the rest don't care.
There's no easy plane, but there are hard planes and crew who master those have my admiration but "he who has the most fun wins" and some nights I feel like a gold medallist.
end of rant - stay cool.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on April 27, 2010, 05:57:26 AM
I fly what I want to fly and I want to fly Spits.
Only the ENY decides which model I fly and I don't care to fly a XIV because most fights start at 10K or less, so there's no starting advantage there.
The Seafire just keeps me honest in the E stakes whereas the XVI is a lot more forgiving. I just like the way Spits feel - They do most things pretty well but;
A N1KI will out turn me and has twice as many cannon shells as I do.
A Pony and an LA7 can extend away from me usually and have the abilty to dictate the fight with that speed and ultimately decide if they will fight.
A Zeke or a Hurri will make my Spit look like a carrier in the turn stakes and have superior ammo loadouts.
A P-38 has that stalling thing where they come down and smash me.
A Corsair has that "hang on the prop" act going and I get belted on the way down.
A Yak can out roll me.
190's and 109's have no gun convergence issues to speak of and "laser shoot" from any distance.
So flying a Spit is all about compromise and playing to moderate strengths and not getting sucked in to the other planes fight style - fight your own fight.
That being said - the Noob and Spixteen Noob comments are fairly tame and lame and probably wasted on all but the most insecure of people - save your fingers - the impressionable will probably change planes - the rest don't care.
There's no easy plane, but there are hard planes and crew who master those have my admiration but "he who has the most fun wins" and some nights I feel like a gold medallist.
end of rant - stay cool.
if you dont want to be disturbed dont look down at the pic :aok




(http://banilla.com/xanga/bellybump.gif)

Pretty sure a spitXIV will fight very well above 15k... VERY well
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: phatzo on April 27, 2010, 07:00:44 AM
lol threeup, good rant  :cheers:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: saantana on April 27, 2010, 04:12:43 PM
...
So flying a Spit is all about compromise and playing to moderate strengths and not getting sucked in to the other planes fight style - fight your own fight.
That being said - the Noob and Spixteen Noob comments are fairly tame and lame and probably wasted on all but the most insecure of people - save your fingers - the impressionable will probably change planes - the rest don't care.
..

Yes.

Thought surprisingly some veteran sticks in this game haven't gotten this very simple point. I wonder if there exists a correlation between a players skill and his ability to understand simple concepts.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: stodd on April 27, 2010, 06:11:21 PM
I fly what I want to fly and I want to fly Spits.
Only the ENY decides which model I fly and I don't care to fly a XIV because most fights start at 10K or less, so there's no starting advantage there.
The Seafire just keeps me honest in the E stakes whereas the XVI is a lot more forgiving. I just like the way Spits feel - They do most things pretty well but;
A N1KI will out turn me and has twice as many cannon shells as I do.
A Pony and an LA7 can extend away from me usually and have the abilty to dictate the fight with that speed and ultimately decide if they will fight.
A Zeke or a Hurri will make my Spit look like a carrier in the turn stakes and have superior ammo loadouts.
A P-38 has that stalling thing where they come down and smash me.
A Corsair has that "hang on the prop" act going and I get belted on the way down.
A Yak can out roll me.
190's and 109's have no gun convergence issues to speak of and "laser shoot" from any distance.
So flying a Spit is all about compromise and playing to moderate strengths and not getting sucked in to the other planes fight style - fight your own fight.
That being said - the Noob and Spixteen Noob comments are fairly tame and lame and probably wasted on all but the most insecure of people - save your fingers - the impressionable will probably change planes - the rest don't care.
There's no easy plane, but there are hard planes and crew who master those have my admiration but "he who has the most fun wins" and some nights I feel like a gold medallist.
end of rant - stay cool.
Spits are easy mde.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: guncrasher on April 27, 2010, 07:41:01 PM

Perk the spits all u want all the good spit dweebs have lots of perkies to use :).


Semp
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: SmokinLoon on April 27, 2010, 07:46:22 PM
I'm quite sure others have said this many times over (probably even me somewhere in this thread): there is no more capable aircraft than the Spit16.  The only real weakness is its ability to keep up in a fast dive of the those aircraft who run best while besting the bulk of the aircraft out there in a dogfight.  

Its turns very well; it rolls very well; it climbs very well; it accelerates very well; it has more than enough firepower; it carries 1k worth of ord (3 dead  gv's); it has great visibility; and has above average speed, and it holds E extremely well.  If it is anywhere near the "speed demons" at the start of a sprintor run-a-thon the runner is dead meat.

There are planes with less across the board abilities but are perked, the Spit14 comes to mind right away.  The Spit14 has a wee bit a speed and a wee bit a climb advantage over the Spit16.  If anything, the Spit 16 should have a small perk (?), and the Spit 14 should have lessor than it had now (down to a 7?)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: ACE on April 27, 2010, 07:46:31 PM
Perk the spits all u want all the good spit dweebs have lots of perkies to use :).


Semp
That they do, but the spits will most likely never be perked.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: 321BAR on April 27, 2010, 08:15:21 PM
I'm quite sure others have said this many times over (probably even me somewhere in this thread): there is no more capable aircraft than the Spit16.  The only real weakness is its ability to keep up in a fast dive of the those aircraft who run best while besting the bulk of the aircraft out there in a dogfight.  

Its turns very well; it rolls very well; it climbs very well; it accelerates very well; it has more than enough firepower; it carries 1k worth of ord (3 dead  gv's); it has great visibility; and has above average speed, and it holds E extremely well.  If it is anywhere near the "speed demons" at the start of a sprintor run-a-thon the runner is dead meat.

There are planes with less across the board abilities but are perked, the Spit14 comes to mind right away.  The Spit14 has a wee bit a speed and a wee bit a climb advantage over the Spit16.  If anything, the Spit 16 should have a small perk (?), and the Spit 14 should have lessor than it had now (down to a 7?)
the spiXIV is perked due to its ability to fight at altitude...the higher the better for it... rivals all of the high alt fighters cept maybe the 152 and jets
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 27, 2010, 08:36:54 PM
That they do, but the spits will most likely never be perked.

Again, no one has presented any valid evidence as to why the Spitfire Mk XVI should be perked, let alone how the Spitfire Mk XVI has unbalanced the game play in any fashion. 

The same whines you hear about the Spitfire Mk XVI were the same whines years ago about the La-7, N1K2, P-51D and the FW 190D-9. 

ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Glasses on April 27, 2010, 08:54:14 PM

190's and 109's have no gun convergence issues to speak of and "laser shoot" from any distance.



That's some good drugs you must be smoking friend.  :rofl

I'll just sit here and watch from the corner,carry on.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on April 27, 2010, 11:51:59 PM
If they gave the Spit XVI 150 octane fuel I'd support perking it.  If they gave the Spit XIV 150 octane fuel I'd support keeping it perked.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: bravoa8 on April 28, 2010, 12:01:05 AM
if you dont want to be disturbed dont look down at the pic :aok




(http://banilla.com/xanga/bellybump.gif)

Pretty sure a spitXIV will fight very well above 15k... VERY well
That's so funny and wierd! :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Threeup on April 28, 2010, 12:10:08 AM
Spits are easy mde.
Quote
That's some good drugs you must be smoking friend. 

I'll just sit here and watch from the corner,carry on.

Oh come on!!
Surely you can use more brain cells and generate a worthwhile reply!
Seriously - you consider the two little gems above input into a discussion?

The 109K4 carries a devastating 30mm Mk 108 cannons (65 rounds) mounted to fire through the propeller spinner.
Standard to the 190A5 are a pair of cowl mounted 7.9mm MG17's with 900 rounds/gun.

Where's the convergence?
Reply or don't reply, but please add something of worth and don't embarrass yourselves any further - and buy a new book of "witty remarks".
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Plawranc on April 28, 2010, 12:35:08 AM
Spitfires are not noobish, they can do everything pretty well, but the skill needed to fly them properly is no less than any other aircraft. In fact I found the F4U easier than the Spitfire lol. And yet they are regarded as "Pro" rides.

Please, we fly what we want and if we win? then you fought the wrong fight.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 28, 2010, 12:35:20 AM
Oh come on!!
Surely you can use more brain cells and generate a worthwhile reply!
Seriously - you consider the two little gems above input into a discussion?

The 109K4 carries a devastating 30mm Mk 108 cannons (65 rounds) mounted to fire through the propeller spinner.
Standard to the 190A5 are a pair of cowl mounted 7.9mm MG17's with 900 rounds/gun.

Where's the convergence?
Reply or don't reply, but please add something of worth and don't embarrass yourselves any further - and buy a new book of "witty remarks".

Nose mounted guns won't require convergence but if they also have wing mounted guns, those will have to converge.

ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 28, 2010, 12:37:37 AM
Spitfires are not noobish, they can do everything pretty well, but the skill needed to fly them properly is no less than any other aircraft. In fact I found the F4U easier than the Spitfire lol. And yet they are regarded as "Pro" rides.

Please, we fly what we want and if we win? then you fought the wrong fight.

No, with the exception of the Spitfire Mk XIV, the Spitfires are a very forgiving aircraft, much more so than any of the Corsairs.  The Spitfire is so forgiving that you can screw up without paying that much of a penalty for it.  No other aircraft in the plane set is as forgiving to fly, don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Glasses on April 28, 2010, 01:30:40 AM
Oh come on!!
Surely you can use more brain cells and generate a worthwhile reply!
Seriously - you consider the two little gems above input into a discussion?

The 109K4 carries a devastating 30mm Mk 108 cannons (65 rounds) mounted to fire through the propeller spinner.
Standard to the 190A5 are a pair of cowl mounted 7.9mm MG17's with 900 rounds/gun.

Where's the convergence?
Reply or don't reply, but please add something of worth and don't embarrass yourselves any further - and buy a new book of "witty remarks".



Yeah the 30mm cannon sure is lasertastic  with the muzzle velocity of an anemic old man with Lou Gerick's disease. A maneuvering fighter is even a challenge to hit at D0 let alone at d200 or greater , since the bullets  you fire as soon as they leave the muzzle they drop and scatter requiring at least 10 to 15 bullets per target and that is if the dude is a "marksman" as far as the world of cartoon computer generated fighters is concerned.

The 20mms in the wing roots of the 190s do require convergence and their effective range is less than 200y try to fire anything further away   from that distance and you might as well throw a rock at the guy in front. Not only that but they don't have one quarter the muzzle velocity or the damage a single hispano makes. Deflection shooting near point blank range using the MG151s is nearly impossible , let alone the forward visibility in the 190s which doesn't let you at all  see what's below the cowling, the  hispano however  if you have the gun sight 1/3 above the center-line of the gunsight,  the bullets will travel within your line of sight making deflection shooting much much much less of an effort in a Hispano equipped plane than any German one. I've done high deflection shooting above D600 D400 in a hispano plane with little to no effort impacting the target usually ripping something off by the 6 or 7 bullets that impacts,pulling little to no lead. The German guns where you aim is not necessarily where they will fall even at D200 they're frustratingly inaccurate, I don't know whether that's historically precise or not but the assessment that the 109 and 190 have Laser weapons  a la Spitfire is frankly preposterous even with a center-line MG151.

IDC either way  whether they perk it or not all I know is when I kill some dweeb flying a Spit XVI it gives me in an A8 a bunch of perks and if they kill me  it's supposed to be that way ( in game)  the 190A8 maneuvers like a freight truck. Of course some of this can be alleviated by an 190A9 but I won't hold my breath. To the displeasure of some.

Seriously you're comparing the 7mm machine guns  in the 190 and saying they do any amount of damage except maybe if the other person has his speakers headset turned all the way  up that will damage their ear drums,even the 13mm cowling guns are nothing other than extra weight I have to carry around. I generally just fire off all the ammo to make my plane somewhat lighter.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on April 28, 2010, 02:35:29 AM
Hey now, I've killed a B-26 with just the 13mm on the Fw190D-9.  Once.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Krusty on April 28, 2010, 02:42:11 AM
All the disparaging comments about MG151/20 are just wrong. I just wanted to add that. I have regularly hit targets with ease out to 400 yards, lead shots, deflection shooting.... If you can't kill with them I blame you, not the gun.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Glasses on April 28, 2010, 02:42:30 AM
Hey now, I've killed a B-26 with just the 13mm on the Fw190D-9.  Once.


So you annoyed the bomber to death and it decided to end his suffering?  :D
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Krusty on April 28, 2010, 02:42:55 AM
EDIT: Forum burp, double post, but let me add that the cowl guns on the 190s are worth using. Especially the MG131s. I got an 8-kill sortie in a G-14 once, finished off the 7th and killed the 8th with MG131s only. Same goes for the nose guns on Ki-84, the 50cals on a spit16, the C202's near-50cal nose guns, the P-39Q's 2x50cal package.....

You're making claims that are wrong. You wanna say "I never use them" fine, but don't say "they don't work" -- just because you don't use 'em doesn't mean they don't work.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Glasses on April 28, 2010, 02:47:15 AM
All the disparaging comments about MG151/20 are just wrong. I just wanted to add that. I have regularly hit targets with ease out to 400 yards (many cases 600-800, but using 400 as a "kill zone" range...), lead shots, deflection shooting.... If you can't kill with them I blame you, not the gun.


I haven't said I can't or couldn't I have said that making shots at these ranges regularly is much more of an effort comparatively to a Hispano equipped plane. 200-400y range seems fairly accurate. But to ensure that you will turn the target into ground meat and  aluminum confetti you need to be below or within the 200y range mark.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Krusty on April 28, 2010, 02:51:06 AM
I haven't said I can't or couldn't I have said that making shots at these ranges regularly is much more of an effort comparatively

You know, reading through it that is NOT how it came across. Came across totally different. Just FYI. Might want to be careful about trashing the MG151s (or, when seeming to). They're not all that bad.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on April 28, 2010, 02:53:50 AM

So you annoyed the bomber to death and it decided to end his suffering?  :D
Well, I actually came in fast and was marvelously accurate (by my standards) and drilled his right wing the whole way in and it came off just as I passed.  This was back in AH1 before formations were added to the game.

I have done the "annoy the target to death" with other fighters though.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Glasses on April 28, 2010, 03:02:12 AM
You know, reading through it that is NOT how it came across. Came across totally different. Just FYI. Might want to be careful about trashing the MG151s (or, when seeming to). They're not all that bad.

Comparatively speaking against the Hispano it is just that like night and day. It doesn't mean that I can't hit or make kills in it. It's just that coming from an MG151 plane and shooting in a Tempest ,Typh, Spit ,F4U1C is merely child's play. Using Hyperbole and sarcasm to make my point clear.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on April 28, 2010, 03:13:01 AM
I don't find the difference between the Hispano II and the MG151/20, Ho-5 or Type 99-II all that bad.  The Hispano V is between the two.

The 30mm Mk108 is a completely different story though.  It shares its ballistic properties with the MG/FF and Type 99-Is
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Glasses on April 28, 2010, 03:15:55 AM
Well, I actually came in fast and was marvelously accurate (by my standards) and drilled his right wing the whole way in and it came off just as I passed.  This was back in AH1 before formations were added to the game.

I have done the "annoy the target to death" with other fighters though.

Good times,good times.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on April 28, 2010, 01:51:54 PM
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2766/clipboard01wq.jpg)

You have to lead 1.2 times further with 151/20s than Hispanos. Hispano's shoot straighter also.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on April 28, 2010, 01:56:33 PM
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2766/clipboard01wq.jpg)

You have to lead 18% further with 151/20s than Hispanos. Hispano's shoot straighter also.

Well, thanks for contaminating the discussion with facts. The shocker to me is the Mk103's muzzle velocity. It's the same as the Hispano's.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on April 28, 2010, 02:02:38 PM
Well, thanks for contaminating the discussion with facts. The shocker to me is the Mk103's muzzle velocity. It's the same as the Hispano's.

Call me crazy, but I can't think of any plane off the top of my head that uses an Mk103 in the game.   :headscratch:
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on April 28, 2010, 02:09:43 PM
Call me crazy, but I can't think of any plane off the top of my head that uses an Mk103 in the game.   :headscratch:

DI I just confuse it with the 108? Yes, I think I did.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on April 28, 2010, 02:13:42 PM
DI I just confuse it with the 108? Yes, I think I did.

I apologize, as the Mk103 is on that list.  I should also reference Lusche, as I pulled that list from something he posted in Help and Training a few months ago.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on April 28, 2010, 02:14:18 PM
Is that Hispano II or Hispano V?  Tony Williams lists the Hispano II at 880m/s and the V at 840m/s.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on April 28, 2010, 02:15:52 PM
I apologize, as the Mk103 is on that list.  I should also reference Lusche, as I pulled that list from something he posted in Help and Training a few months ago.

No matter. The 108 is only 540 m/s, wiki reveals. Thus, it is loopier by far.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on April 28, 2010, 02:16:00 PM
Is that Hispano II or Hispano V?  Tony Williams lists the Hispano II at 880m/s and the V at 840m/s.
.

Maybe since we don't know what Hispano is in the game, Lusche split the difference.  Although, I could have sworn that data is somehow linked to either an AH trainer corps page or the main HTC one, I just can't remember.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on April 28, 2010, 02:16:32 PM
No matter. The 108 is only 540 m/s, wiki reveals. Thus, it is loopier by far.

108 is also on that list.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on April 28, 2010, 02:26:50 PM
108 is also on that list.

Yes, and has a significant diff with wiki. Hmmm...
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on April 28, 2010, 02:32:12 PM
Yes, and has a significant diff with wiki. Hmmm...

I'm not sure on the exact sourcing of that list (Lusche's list) but even if the numbers are slightly off, it still gives the basic velocities with an applicability to game with the error within reason.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Karnak on April 28, 2010, 02:39:01 PM
.

Maybe since we don't know what Hispano is in the game, Lusche split the difference.  Although, I could have sworn that data is somehow linked to either an AH trainer corps page or the main HTC one, I just can't remember.
Spitfires, Hurricane, Mosquito, Typhoon, P-38 and F4U-1C all have Hispano IIs.  Tempest has Hispano Vs.
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: grizz441 on April 28, 2010, 02:41:46 PM
Spitfires, Hurricane, Mosquito, Typhoon, P-38 and F4U-1C all have Hispano IIs.  Tempest has Hispano Vs.

Rgr that, I don't know much about hispanos.  :)
Title: Re: Perking Spit 16
Post by: Glasses on April 28, 2010, 04:10:19 PM
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2766/clipboard01wq.jpg)

You have to lead 1.2 times further with 151/20s than Hispanos. Hispano's shoot straighter also.


Well, there you go.  It's all in my head right?  :aok


Except the 109,190 and Ta 152 all use  the MK 108.