Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: shppr01 on March 11, 2010, 11:59:50 AM
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No This is not the usual are you gonna watch this thread!
Tonight they are honoring the veterans in thwe the pacific in Arlington VA with keynote speakers Tom Hanks and Steven Speilberg. I and my company am the lucky ones to have printed the programs foer the event. I happened to grab an extra copy for a keepsake!
P.S. dont usuially blow my own horn ,but just had to share :banana:
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Woot, it's only been about 2 1/2 years since I first heard about it, and it's finally here, so don't forget tonight on HBO at 9:00P.M EST.
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Im already waiting :x :x
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:x :x :x
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3 hours... :neener:
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Hopefully there wont be a bug that crashes HBO...... :bolt: :neener: Just kidding guys! I cant wait for this either!
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The last episode of Band of Brothers ended with the episode "Points". It dealt with the capture of the Eagle's nest and the how quickly the boys could get back home.
Any guesses what the last episode of this mini-series will be about?
My guess will be the story of the Marines waiting to invade Japan and their concerns against the backdrop story of the two atomic bombs.
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DVR locked and loaded. :)
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I kinda liked it. As much as the Pacwar is my favorite in ww2 history, for some reason the movies of it come out flat. Hope it gets better.
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I thought it was great! Cant wait for the next ones!
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I thought that it was great too, a good way imo to get into the next one.
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I think 10 episodes is going to go by way too fast. This was just a taste of whats coming and it was sweet.
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Wow, they really got going right off the bat. No basic training, just right into Guadalcanal.
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It was great as to be expected! What i didnt like is the fact it didnt even start till 9:10 est and ended at 9:50 when the credits rolled! for a first episode yo would figure there would be a little more actual content! left me feeling like i was jipped!
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I kinda liked it. As much as the Pacwar is my favorite in ww2 history, for some reason the movies of it come out flat. Hope it gets better.
I had the same initial impression while watching. My opinion improved as the first installment progressed.
Despite the producer's explicit statements that Pacific is *not* BoB in the PTO, I think many viewers are looking for that comparison, regardless.
The Thin Red Line fell victim to the same fate when movie-goers went in expecting to see SPR in the PTO. TRL, by just about any critical measure, makes SPR look like a turd; yet one is clearly more popular than the other.
Thus far, my biggest Pacific gripe is the lack of character development but, again... that's based on BoB comparisons I'm telling myself not to make...
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I got a little worried when the guy found the doll in the enemy's things. Hope it doesnt get too touchy feely. Really hoping they have some of the ridge fighting in the next one. Trouble is so much of it was night fighting...hard to see alot of the cool stuff.
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Hope it doesnt get too touchy feely.
Based on what I have read, that's pretty much what you should expect; mortars and (e)motions.
For whatever reason, Hollywood seems hell-bent on using the ETO to tell war stories and the PTO to tell anti-war stories.
As a venue within which to question humanity, I'm not really sure why it worked out that way.
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I believe that the reason it comes off that way is that the pacific theater was so brutal, the enemy looked different than us, worshiped a different god than us and neither side had any compassion for the other. The PTO is probably the best modern example of mans inhumanity to man. Don't get me wrong ETO was a bad place to be too, just not in the same horrific way as the pacific.
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Sik1 is right. For you guys wanting to slam Hollywood, you are waaaay off base here. You might want to read the books The Pacific is based on, "Helmet For My Pillow" by Robert Leckie and "With The Old Breed" by E.B. Sledge. Maybe then you will get the idea that this is not "The Sands of Iwo Jima" with John Wayne or "Gung Ho" with Randolph Scott. This is a historically accurate depiction from the men that were there and how they delt with it.
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In some ways the ETO is much easier for audiences to related to. First because you had such a clearly defined sense of evil in the Nazi regime, but also because the culture of Germany and the Western Allies was so closely related. As SIK pointed out, the fighting in the Pacific was different. The Germans were tenacious fighters and groups like the Waffen-SS could be pretty scary, but the Japanese mindset during the war was and IS completely alien to us. Western culture doesn't understand the concept of a wounded Japanese soldier waiting for an American medic to come tend to him and then pulling a grenade to blow them both apart.
Many Americans at the time saw it as a war to the death--Halsey himself said he intended to see to it that the Japanese language would only be spoken in hell. The Pacific War was war at its most savage.
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Chesty Puller made his cameo. :lol
I enjoyed it, The Naval engagement at Night was pretty neat. It feels like it will take a long time to develop the characters. I honestly can't remember any of the characters names, except for J.P Morgan and Manny Rodriguez.
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For me, personally, I think my own experience of watching this was tainted by 2 things.
1. I tried to compare it to Band of Brothers. That cast was unreal..and so far this one has come up short.
2. Years of being desensitized of seeing asians get bombed,shot,strafed etc. Seems everyone from John Wayne to Rambo and beyond has been doing it in movies for 60+ years. Part of what made BoB so interesting was seeing white man vs white man. Not trying to sound racist, its just that I guess Im burnt out on seeing Asians getting killed in war movies.
My great Uncle was in WW2 in the Pac. He had the personality of someone who had seen hell.
Hopefully the show gets better.
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I believe that the reason it comes off that way is that the pacific theater was so brutal, the enemy looked different than us, worshiped a different god than us and neither side had any compassion for the other. The PTO is probably the best modern example of mans inhumanity to man. Don't get me wrong ETO was a bad place to be too, just not in the same horrific way as the pacific.
I considered most of that when I was thinking about it last night.
At the end of the day; I think you are correct that, no matter how politically incorrect, the fact that the Japanese "looked different" than us and because their values were different (religion, government, etc) than ours, the PTO is the obvious choice.
My next thought was that any discussion of humanity or brutality in the face of a lack of the former begins and ends with the Holocaust so that dog doesn't hunt.
Perhaps its more our perception of the IJA being populated by fanatically loyal, death > capture types in comparison to the majority of the German soldiers who were "people." I dont think we ever viewed the Japanese as human beings, frankly.
Dunno. It was an interesting question to ponder. Whatever the combination of catalysts, Vietnam fits the same mold and serves as a backdrop for the same basic message: "War = bad... mmmkay?"
The description of the Eastern cultures as "alien" is probably more spot on than we realize.
Even the fallschirmjager in BoB were depicted as fearful. I dont recall any movie/series/show about the PTO wherein any single Japanese soldier, airman or seaman was ever perceived as anything less than a machine.
The scene last night where the Marines were taking pot shots at the guy in the creek? Did you feel an ounce of compassion for him? I didn't. More importantly; no matter how twittleed up that is; I think the point of that scene was to show that they didnt have much compassion for their own lives either. Read: inhuman.
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DVR locked and loaded. :)
+1 :aok
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If you want to compare holocausts you might want to look at what the Japanese did to the Chinese, and all the other races that they thought were inferior. They were not as organized as the Nazis but they were without a doubt every bit as lethal, so that dog does indeed hunt.
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For me, personally, I think my own experience of watching this was tainted by 2 things.
1. I tried to compare it to Band of Brothers. That cast was unreal..and so far this one has come up short.
2. Years of being desensitized of seeing asians get bombed,shot,strafed etc. Seems everyone from John Wayne to Rambo and beyond has been doing it in movies for 60+ years. Part of what made BoB so interesting was seeing white man vs white man. Not trying to sound racist, its just that I guess Im burnt out on seeing Asians getting killed in war movies.
My great Uncle was in WW2 in the Pac. He had the personality of someone who had seen hell.
Hopefully the show gets better.
I actually liked it, reminds me of whenever I read "Edson's Raiders." Especially with the part of the ships being blown apart and what not. THAT was really cool special effects.
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If you want to compare holocausts you might want to look at what the Japanese did to the Chinese, and all the other races that they thought were inferior. They were not as organized as the Nazis but they were without a doubt every bit as lethal, so that dog does indeed hunt.
I am familiar with the actions of the IJA in China and throughout SE Asia. I do not dispute that the actions were the very definition of 'inhuman.' How you can use live civilians for bayonet practice is beyond me.
However, I also don't understand how one can throw another human being in an oven.
Qualitatively, its a matter of opinion, I suppose. Although we might as well be chasing our tail discussing who was the "better man;" Hirohito or Hitler.
Given that, I did some brief searches on Google for quantitative comparisons and estimates are all over the place...
Found this on Wikipedia; directly relevant to our discussion:
It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%. -The Looting of Asia, Chalmers Johnson
Guess youre right. The Japanese appear to have had a greater quantitative impact, too.
Its amazing what human beings can do to each other if given the appropriate motivation... such an interesting creature we are. Civilized as can be until that motivation comes along and we revert back to being animals.
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Wow, they really got going right off the bat. No basic training, just right into Guadalcanal.
Yup.
Probably because they only spend three or so episodes with one soldier's unit, then move to another story line. (at least that's what I've read about the series) If they developed it like BoB, there'd only be a single episode of in-theater action.
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Does anyone know where I can stream the first episode online? My Step-dad doesn't have HBO here on the East Coast, I
didn't get to watch it :(
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Anyone seen a torrent for this one anywere.
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It's HBO guys (may as well be the SS)...and since it's a first run on the series...freebie views are going to be non existent for a while... :frown:
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Qualitatively, its a matter of opinion, I suppose. Although we might as well be chasing our tail discussing who was the "better man;" Hirohito or Hitler.
As a point of order, Hirohito wasn't exactly in control of his government at the time all this was occurring....
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As a point of order, Hirohito wasn't exactly in control of his government at the time all this was occurring....
Hirohito was basically under house arrest for the duration of the war. Comparing him to Hitler misses the point entirely.
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The emperor was far from innocent.
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Does anyone know where I can stream the first episode online? My Step-dad doesn't have HBO here on the East Coast, I
didn't get to watch it :(
If you have DirecTv their 101Network is showing 2 Band of Brothers documentaries followed by Episode 1 of The Pacific tonight.
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It's HBO guys (may as well be the SS)...and since it's a first run on the series...freebie views are going to be non existent for a while... :frown:
Not true, found it on Comcast Fancast, so here you go the full first episode.
http://www.fancast.com/tv/The-Pacific/101664/1424689664/The-Pacific-Part-One-%28HBO%29/videos?cmpid=FCST_hp_xfinitytv (http://www.fancast.com/tv/The-Pacific/101664/1424689664/The-Pacific-Part-One-%28HBO%29/videos?cmpid=FCST_hp_xfinitytv)
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sweet ty :salute
Not true, found it on Comcast Fancast, so here you go the full first episode.
http://www.fancast.com/tv/The-Pacific/101664/1424689664/The-Pacific-Part-One-%28HBO%29/videos?cmpid=FCST_hp_xfinitytv (http://www.fancast.com/tv/The-Pacific/101664/1424689664/The-Pacific-Part-One-%28HBO%29/videos?cmpid=FCST_hp_xfinitytv)
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The emperor was far from innocent.
Innocence and culpability is very difficult to discern 70 years in the past.
The fact that the Emperor in question was under a state of house arrest for the duration of the war is not, nor is it in question that he could do little to shape policy during the period in question, and that the militarists were in control of the direction of the country of Japan.
There are far more guilty parties to be found in Japan, 1935-1945, than its' Emperor.
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The scene last night where the Marines were taking pot shots at the guy in the creek? Did you feel an ounce of compassion for him? I didn't. More importantly; no matter how twittleed up that is; I think the point of that scene was to show that they didnt have much compassion for their own lives either. Read: inhuman.
I saw that scene different, i think he was disgusted that his squad had failed their mission and the rest had died for the emperor and being a prisoner was unacceptable.
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I saw that scene different, i think he was disgusted that his squad had failed their mission and the rest had died for the emperor and being a prisoner was unacceptable.
I saw it like he was angry that he was there and it was basically for nothing.
It'd be nice if someone who understands Japanese could tell us what he was saying.
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It was he Emperor who overrode the Japanese military council in the process of surrender after the Nuclear bombings. Actually, the military council had decided to keep on fighting.
This was broadcasted on radio, where the emperor spoke. Ir was done successfully, but with some luck, since the council was ready to use force to stop it, and if I recall right, there was an armed conflict Jap vs Jap, at the emperor's palace.
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I saw it like he was angry that he was there and it was basically for nothing.
It'd be nice if someone who understands Japanese could tell us what he was saying.
I saw and understood it like he was upset he failed and the rest of his comrades were killed and he did not meet the same honorable fate.
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It was he Emperor who overrode the Japanese military council in the process of surrender after the Nuclear bombings. Actually, the military council had decided to keep on fighting.
This was broadcasted on radio, where the emperor spoke. Ir was done successfully, but with some luck, since the council was ready to use force to stop it, and if I recall right, there was an armed conflict Jap vs Jap, at the emperor's palace.
Yeah I remember hearing about that coup attempt. History did a special about how it was partially thwarted by a B-29 raid.
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It's HBO guys (may as well be the SS)...and since it's a first run on the series...freebie views are going to be non existent for a while... :frown:
Go to http://www.hbo.com/the-pacific/index.html (http://www.hbo.com/the-pacific/index.html)
You can watch it there, but you must first register.
My regards,
Widewing
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I saw and understood it like he was upset he failed and the rest of his comrades were killed and he did not meet the same honorable fate.
That's the way I saw it.
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anyone else watch the video after the credits?
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I liked it I think it can only get better? Considering it is about war.
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It is pretty disappointing, really. Not written half as well as Band of Brothers.
In my opinion, they focused too much on getting all of the technical stuff right, and not enough on developing the characters.
That is why we cared so much about Easy Company in Band of Brothers. We felt like we were one of them.
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In the first episode of BOB, there was very little character development outside the main characters of Winters and Sobel.
Band of Brothers has the benefit of having all its episodes having been available for 9 years, each of the 10 building to create the whole picture...perhaps it would be more prudent to allow The Pacific to complete its run before any real comparisons can be made?
Tronsky
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In the first episode of BOB, there was very little character development outside the main characters of Winters and Sobel.
Band of Brothers has the benefit of having all its episodes having been available for 9 years, each of the 10 building to create the whole picture...perhaps it would be more prudent to allow The Pacific to complete its run before any real comparisons can be made?
Tronsky
Agreed. By the way, I love your avatar. One of the few movies I've watched more than ten times :)
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I saw and understood it like he was upset he failed and the rest of his comrades were killed and he did not meet the same honorable fate.
Six and one.
Same basic message. Life is unimportant.
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It'd be nice if someone who understands Japanese could tell us what he was saying.
I speak a little Japanese.
He says "rooks and knits suhhhhhkkkkk"
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I loved it, very well done and to be honest i can't wait to see the Pt.II
thx Mr. Spielberg & Hanks!
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I got my roommate to watch it, he loved it, now I got him watching Band of Brothers since it's on OnDemand right now, he's definitely hooked.
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I saw and understood it like he was upset he failed and the rest of his comrades were killed and he did not meet the same honorable fate.
I saw it as he lost his mind seeing all his mates and countrymen lying in the gutter dead with various bodyparts blown off. I also saw it that he rather died standing up then being captured and tortured to death by the evil and unhuman Americans. I think their superiors had told them that very nasty things would happen to them if they would be captured alive.
He simply saw no way out.
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Episode 1 of this has been playing on T101 and T101HD channels (DirecTV). Not a bad deal since I don't pay for HBO
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I saw it as he lost his mind seeing all his mates and countrymen lying in the gutter dead with various bodyparts blown off. I also saw it that he rather died standing up then being captured and tortured to death by the evil and unhuman Americans. I think their superiors had told them that very nasty things would happen to them if they would be captured alive.
He simply saw no way out.
Frustration and anger.... That's what I saw.
My regards,
Widewing
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It is pretty disappointing, really. Not written half as well as Band of Brothers.
In my opinion, they focused too much on getting all of the technical stuff right, and not enough on developing the characters.
That is why we cared so much about Easy Company in Band of Brothers. We felt like we were one of them.
My thoughts exactly
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Frustration and anger.... That's what I saw.
My regards,
Widewing
I got the same - i didnt understand what he was saying, but I'd imagined it was a litany of Japanese expletives
Tronsky
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BoB focused on 1 group. Pacific is following 3 different groups. You're not going to get the same length with the characters you got with BoB. What you will get is a bigger picture of what happened during the war. I think over the next few episodes you will get an idea of the bigger picture.
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I think their superiors had told them that very nasty things would happen to them if they would be captured alive.
Well they were toying with him shooting around him and trying to just wound him. There were a few disappointed marines when he was finally put out of his misery.
The problem with the pacific theater is that Japanese are usually portrayed as crazy natives or noble savages (to replace the American Indians?) while Nazis are the ultimate evil. A fight against evil creates more drama and suspense than a safari trip to the far east. At least this is how it comes out in Hollywood.
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Well, I am hoping that the following episodes get better. They really have selected some outstanding men to highlight.
This coming Sunday's episode should probably cover the battle where Sgt John Basilone wins his Medal of Honor. It is quite a story. During a crucial Japanese assault, he keeps not only his own Browning 1917A1 water cooled machine gun in operation, but also a second machine gun, after its crew is killed. He rallies men to keep both guns firing, and then heroically dodges enemy fire to retrieve more ammo, so that both guns can be kept firing. The gunfire from the two Brownings was credited with turning the tide of the battle, as they literally mowed down wave after wave of Japanese making Banzai charges at their position.
Here is a photo of the Browning model 1917A1 water cooled machine gun, caliber .30-06:
(http://www.legaleagleproductions.com/images/uploaded/M1917A1%20,30%20Caliber%20water%20Cooled%20Machine%20Gun.jpg)
It should be quite a battle to see. After it was over, the Marines found an amazing 3,000 dead Japanese bodies at the scene. Basilone was one of only 3 men left in his unit who was not killed or wounded in the horrific slaughter.
Basilone was hailed as a war hero after winning the Medal of Honor. He was sent back to the states to go on a big tour raising US war bonds. For publicizing this tour, the government created this poster depicting him in action at Guadalcanal:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Sergeant_John_Basilone_by_C._C._Beall.png)
The Marines did not want to send him back into combat. Life magazine had done an article on him, and he had been covered extensively by Fox Movietone news. All of this press had turned him into a national celebrity. After his excellent work promoting the sale of war bonds, Basilone was offered a commission as a Lieutenant. However, he refused, as it required him to attend officers school, and thus not be able to return to the war. The Marine Corps then offered him a job as a gunnery trainer, to teach soldiers machine gun gunnery skills. They did not want to risk sending him back into combat. They did not want such a lionized hero to die. Again, though, Basilone refused, and again requested a combat transfer back to the fighting in the Pacific.
The Marine Corps finally relented, and he landed on Iwo Jima with the 5th Marine Division. Amazingly, his exploits at Iwo Jima probably exceeded his efforts at Guadalcanal. Singlehandedly, he took out a large Japanese concrete blockhouse that had been pouring machine gun and artillery fire into the Marines. Using grenades and demolition charges, he wiped out the entire blockhouse garrison all on his own, after sneaking up on the position. Later in the battle, he ran out into a minefield to rescue a Sherman tank that was stuck inside the field. Despite heavy enemy fire all around him, he personally guided the tank to safety, navigating it around the land mines, and thus saving its crew.
Because he had already won the Medal of Honor at Guadalcanal, Basilone was given the Navy's highest medal, the Navy Cross, for his exploits at Iwo Jima. He remains the only Marine in the entire history of the Corps, to win both of these high awards.
Rest in peace John Basilone. A greater American hero than him probably does not exist.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/findagrave/photos/2001/222/basilonejohn.jpg)
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I saw it as he lost his mind seeing all his mates and countrymen lying in the gutter dead with various bodyparts blown off. I also saw it that he rather died standing up then being captured and tortured to death by the evil and unhuman Americans. I think their superiors had told them that very nasty things would happen to them if they would be captured alive.
He simply saw no way out.
Disagree with everything save what IJA soldiers were told about US Marines.
(ate babies, no prisoners, etc, etc).
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This coming Sunday's episode should probably cover the battle where Sgt John Basilone wins his Medal of Honor.
I believe that to be the case. First episode ended with him marching towards the front with Chesty et al with a 1917 on his back, IIRC.
Interesting picture... wonder how badly he is burning his hand. ;)
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Keep in mind it is a movie, so it is just speculation on what the director wants you to believe about that Japanese soldier who gets shot up.
I real life, it did not happen like that according to the author of the book Robert Leckie (The character who shoots the soldier with the pistol).
What happens is at the end of the battle, some of the Japanese are trying to escape along the river and get shot down. One of them is really fat and was carrying food supplies and couldn't get away before getting shot.
Robert Leckie then swims across the river to get souveniers off the dead guy, but finds nothing of value and swims back.
The Marines continue to hold their position on the river for a couple of days and the corpses begin to rot and bloat. Eventually crocs swim up up and start eating the Japanese corpses, and Marines cheer at the spectical, and also because the crocs will dispose of the stink by eating it (so the Marines agree not to shoot the crocs)
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It was very strange watching that first episode.
My Uncle was in the 1st Marines, on the 'Canal.
He probably knew some of those guys.
He told me long ago ..
'that first night, we dug our holes deep .. guys in the next foxhole
whispered 'keep a cool stool' ..it felt like camping in the woods back home, but we knew a fight was coming'
(home was Portland Oregon, we useda go up to his cabin on Mt. Hood on vacation now an then, fun times)
He also watched a lone white P-38 come up behind two zekes and smoke 'em both ..high over the beach,
..zeke's never saw the 38, said it was just two short bursts, one into each, over in seconds.. and the 38 just
motored on out of site, obviously looking for more.
He was wounded by friendly fire, the CO sent him stateside, telling him to enjoy his time there before the Japs came,
.. everyone knew the US was going to be invaded.
Ya .. 1942 was rough.
Gai-Jin .. we were not human to the Japs.
They butchered people that surrendered, among other things.
.. it was common to find a Gai-Jin tied to a tree, his genitals in his mouth, and gutted like a fish.
..all done while he was alive.
'Culture' ?? .. rationalizing bestiality.
If you had been there, seeing someone you knew tied to a tree and such,
.. being 18 with a gun with all that testosterone flowing, with yer buds ..
..well.
-GE aka Frank
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doesn't hold a candle to Band of Brothers
Hanks needs to keep his political views out of his films
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doesn't hold a candle to Band of Brothers
Hanks needs to keep his political views out of his films
How can you realistically draw that conclusion after only one episode?
And no-one is forcing you to watch Hanks' movies. I suppose when you make a movie you can decide what to include or not include as well.
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doesn't hold a candle to Band of Brothers
Hanks needs to keep his political views out of his films
What political view was he espousing in that episode? If you think the 'Canal episode is rough, just wait until you see how brutal things are later on.
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I believe that to be the case. First episode ended with him marching towards the front with Chesty et al with a 1917 on his back, IIRC.
Interesting picture... wonder how badly he is burning his hand. ;)
Well, remember that the M1917A1 was water cooled. That gave it a big edge in battle over air cooled machine guns, which typically had to have their barrels changed during combat due to overheating. In fact, if any other machine gun had been used in that battle, the Marines could have easily been overrun. But because they had these two M1917A1 water cooled machine guns operating, they were able to lay down a deadly continuous fire into the oncoming Japanese ranks. The only thing that the Marines had to do was to keep feeding them ammo. A pause in the fighting to change barrels would have no doubt been disastrous in this battle.
Many Americans don't realize what a patriot John Browning was. For he donated almost all of his work for the US military in developing so many fantastic machine guns for them. The government had unfortunately been lax about adopting the M1917 at first. But once war was declared in April of 1917, Browning himself gave a personal demonstration of the gun to leaders of Congress and the US military a few weeks later, in a desperate effort to get it approved for production ASAP. During this demonstration, Browning personally fired over 40,000 rounds from the gun, without a single malfunction of any kind.
Witnesses were totally blown away by this demonstration. Some key people who were not present were even skeptical of the results, as the reliability had been so extraordinary. Some even openly wondered if the gun's performance that day had not been a fluke. Browning was so dismayed by this skepticism, that he offered a second test a couple of weeks later, to prove it had not been a fluke. This time, all 5 generals responsible for oversight were present. In this test, to illustrate how the gun was capable of such extremely sustained fire, Browning fired the M1917 continually for a full 48 minutes, only pausing briefly at times to insert new belts of ammo.
Needless to say, the generals were all impressed, and they immediately approved the M1917 for adoption by the US Army. It was this amazing ability to constantly fire for such long sustained periods, that allowed these two 1917A1's to play such a major role in this battle on Guadalcanal that will be featured in this coming Sunday's episode of "The Pacific". The Japanese must have thought that these guns just could not continue to fire so long, without suffering any kind of malfunction. But the two guns did, and history was made.
So in an indirect, but very crucial way, John Moses Browning was also a hero that day. For his genius had created a machine gun so very tough and reliable, that it ended up performing perfectly in actual combat, just like it had done in Browning's hands during the evaluation tests.
The Japanese had nothing like the M1917A1 in their arsenal. All of their machine guns, both light and heavy, had bare barrels just cooled by the air. Their light machine guns were also limited to using 30 round magazines. The older Model 11 light machine gun was know for having serious reliability problems, and often malfunctioned as well. While the later Model 96 that replaced it was much more reliable, it was still limited greatly in its firepower by its air cooled barrel and use of 30 round magazines.
Japan's heavy machine guns were also quite limited, compared to the M1917A1. Besides being air cooled, the Type 92 heavy machine had a slow rate of fire ( only 200 rounds a minute, compared to 600 rounds per minute of the A1917A1 ) This limitation was mainly due to the gun using ammo strips that again only held 30 rounds
In contrast to these Japanese guns, the M1917A1 operated like a lawn mower, literally mowing down the enemy when they made Banzai charges. The Japanese were forced to change their fighting tactics after Guadalcanal. For the Banzai charges that had worked so well fighting in Korea and China, proved to be an utter disaster when employed against American positions held by soldiers armed with machine guns designed by John Browning.
Here are two official portraits that were taken of Browning with his beloved M1917. He was 60 years old when he invented it. It is too bad that he could not have been given a Medal of Honor too.
(http://www.weekendhobby.com/gun/webboard/picture%5C197255022575.jpg)
(http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/I/img/MG-1-121-40.jpg)
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- sorry - doubleposted :headscratch:
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Gai-Jin .. we were not human to the Japs.
They butchered people that surrendered, among other things.
.. it was common to find a Gai-Jin tied to a tree, his genitals in his mouth, and gutted like a fish.
..all done while he was alive.
'Culture' ?? .. rationalizing bestiality.
If you had been there, seeing someone you knew tied to a tree and such,
.. being 18 with a gun with all that testosterone flowing, with yer buds ..
..well.
-GE aka Frank
we have to keep things in perspective. the animosity/hatred, fear and war crimes were on both sides, not just the japanese.
surrendering, defenseless imperial army soldiers were at times shot or flamed with napalm. navy fighters also strafed surviving japanese sailors that were on rafts.
and these were even put down as written orders by high ranking u.s. officers.
the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.
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WoW.
Great post man, brings light to alot of stuff imo.
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the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.
Though, not if you include the Russian front. It would be hard to say that one was more brutal than the other, but the difference in scale is staggering.
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the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.
War is brutal
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we have to keep things in perspective. the animosity/hatred, fear and war crimes were on both sides, not just the japanese.
surrendering, defenseless imperial army soldiers were at times shot or flamed with napalm. navy fighters also strafed surviving japanese sailors that were on rafts.
and these were even put down as written orders by high ranking u.s. officers.
the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.
We did go all out against the Japanese. Even Superman was used against them. Two major production Superman cartoons were produced by Paramount in 1942 showing him battling the Japanese.
The Japoteurs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YDO8HR_2Xg
The Eleventh Hour:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0FNvYi49kY
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I'm hoping this was meant as a joke. The Pacific theater was a definite afterthought during the war. Hitler and
Europe was Roosevelt's main priority, no question about it.
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Bah, not worth it.
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We did go all out against the Japanese. Even Superman was used against them. Two major production Superman cartoons were produced by Paramount in 1942 showing him battling the Japanese.
The Japoteurs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YDO8HR_2Xg
The Eleventh Hour:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0FNvYi49kY
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Heck, even Bugs got in on the act.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvQP8njW9Q4
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doesn't hold a candle to Band of Brothers
Hanks needs to keep his political views out of his films
^This coming from a guy that flies cartoon airplanes and knows what it was like at Guadalcanal from playing in a scenario.
Episode 1 BoB vs Episode 1 Pacific. Pac wins hands down.
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Quote from: Eagler on Yesterday at 12:04:22 PM
doesn't hold a candle to Band of Brothers
Hanks needs to keep his political views out of his films
_____________________________ _____________________________ ____________________
^This coming from a guy that flies cartoon airplanes and knows what it was like at Guadalcanal from playing in a scenario.
Episode 1 BoB vs Episode 1 Pacific. Pac wins hands down.
Well, Hanks should have keep his big fat mouth shut this week, that is for sure. Labeling both US Soldiers fighting in the Pacific in WWII as well as current US forces fighting in Afghanistan as being "racist" and "ignorant" was completely uncalled for, in my opinion.
Did our soldiers really want to kill Japs because they looked different than us?? I say no. The Japanese soldiers themselves were brutal and cruel. How else could we have fought them?
I'm sure that the Marines in the Pacific did many terrible things to the Japanese soldiers. But it was not because they were a different race.
Last year's Miniseries "World War II in HD" on the History channel had a major segment about Guadalcanal in it. They actually showed real life film of the bodies of American soldiers that had been so horribly mutilated by the Japanese, as a warning to other US troops. The soldier they were following on Guadalcanal recalled that horrific sight in his commentary while the images were being shown. He said that no words of any kind were spoken among the Marines as they past the ghastly sight. But he also said that he knew deep down in his heart, that his unit was now not going to be taking any prisoners. And they indeed didn't.
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^This coming from a guy that flies cartoon airplanes and knows what it was like at Guadalcanal from playing in a scenario.
Episode 1 BoB vs Episode 1 Pacific. Pac wins hands down.
lol rpm - my ole buddy .. that is your opinion - I will not degrade it as you have done mine <S>
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Did our soldiers really want to kill Japs because they looked different than us?? I say no. The Japanese soldiers themselves were brutal and cruel. How else could we have fought them?
I'm sure that the Marines in the Pacific did many terrible things to the Japanese soldiers. But it was not because they were a different race.
Go read "War Without Mercy" by John Dower: http://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Mercy-Power-Pacific/dp/0394751728.
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I'm sure that the Marines in the Pacific did many terrible things to the Japanese soldiers. But it was not because they were a different race.
It is far easier to kill someone who you believe is not only evil but may also be subhuman. I don't fault the propaganda nor the American Military during the war years, but I don't feel Hanks is accurate comparing any of that to the conflict in Afghanistan. I have never seen any effort to diminish anyone in the Middle East, there may an effort but it isn't mainstream nor is it backed by the American citizen or the US Government.
That said, the propaganda during the war years was far more cruel to the Japanese than it was to the Germans. Yes, Hitler was constantly mocked in posters, comics, and even cartoons but I've never seen the individual German soldier or German citizen mocked with images of an individual wearing thick glasses, with buck teeth, and an inability to grasp basic thought.
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navy fighters also strafed surviving japanese sailors that were on rafts.
and these were even put down as written orders by high ranking u.s. officers.
You think there might be a reason for that? Many PT boats lost crew members trying to take live prisoners. You get them on board, and they grab the first handy object and try to kill somebody. Sometimes they were successful.
Normal technique was to club them unconscious with a boat hook and then try to drag them on board. A lot did not want to be rescued by the evil american butchers.
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It is far easier to kill someone who you believe is not only evil but may also be subhuman. I don't fault the propaganda nor the American Military during the war years, but I don't feel Hanks is accurate comparing any of that to the conflict in Afghanistan. I have never seen any effort to diminish anyone in the Middle East, there may an effort but it isn't mainstream nor is it backed by the American citizen or the US Government.
That said, the propaganda during the war years was far more cruel to the Japanese than it was to the Germans. Yes, Hitler was constantly mocked in posters, comics, and even cartoons but I've never seen the individual German soldier or German citizen mocked with images of an individual wearing thick glasses, with buck teeth, and an inability to grasp basic thought.
very true.
japan's self-enforced isolation led to a culture of seeing other races as subhuman also. this is why few japanese soldiers at that time gave little thought to killing/torturing/maltreating all chinese during the rape of nanking. live chinese civilians and POW were used for "bayonet practice" and to help instill "yamato damashii" in new japanese army recruits. in french-indochina, when "local provisioning" became insufficient in the later years of the war, indo-pakistani POW's were eaten/cannibalized by japanese troops. they would cut and cook ears, nose, lips, fingers first and tie up the POW- this to keep him alive and for his meat to remain fresh(if he dies his meat turns bad faster in tropical heat.) later they would get the very same person(still alive but missing previous parts) and cut his thigh meat, buttocks, chest. last to be taken are internal organs, the liver in most cases which ultimately leads to the POW's death.
reading james bradley's "flyboys" will give you a better insight into the cultural divide that existed between americans and japanese prior to and during the war.
this is why i say the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.
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live chinese civilians and POW were used for "bayonet practice"
Interesting you say that, my grandfather was brought in as an advisor after WWII ended and later in Korea as well. He has a scrapbook where the same was done to the Chinese and Koreans, he even made a note in the book where it states 'fruit cocktail was given to the men doing the deed'. This way, they could keep the strength up and use the bayonet instead of wasting bullets. Before you ask, neither my grandfather nor the US military was taking part in the horrific crime.
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:furious :furious dont have HBO here and wasnt going to get it just to watch this show, ive heard its really good and well directed, hopefully it will come out on a DVD collection soon©™
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can see it here 4 free
http://www.fancast.com/tv/The-Pacific/101664/1424689664/The-Pacific-Part-One-%28HBO%29/videos?cmpid=FCST_hp_xfinitytv
or here
http://www.hbo.com/the-pacific/index.html
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Go read "War Without Mercy" by John Dower: http://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Mercy-Power-Pacific/dp/0394751728.
Sorry, but I do not bother to read such utter garbage. Authors who want to re-write history to make the USA look to be no different than Japan in terms of morality or culpability are liberal trash in my mind.
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very true.
japan's self-enforced isolation led to a culture of seeing other races as subhuman also. this is why few japanese soldiers at that time gave little thought to killing/torturing/maltreating all chinese during the rape of nanking. live chinese civilians and POW were used for "bayonet practice" and to help instill "yamato damashii" in new japanese army recruits. in french-indochina, when "local provisioning" became insufficient in the later years of the war, indo-pakistani POW's were eaten/cannibalized by japanese troops. they would cut and cook ears, nose, lips, fingers first and tie up the POW- this to keep him alive and for his meat to remain fresh(if he dies his meat turns bad faster in tropical heat.) later they would get the very same person(still alive but missing previous parts) and cut his thigh meat, buttocks, chest. last to be taken are internal organs, the liver in most cases which ultimately leads to the POW's death.
Exactly on target. Imperial Japan was probably the most racist nation on the entire planet. Even more so than Nazi Germany.
To try to equate the USA's behavior in WWII to that of Japan is outlandish at best, and anti-American at worst, in my opinion.
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:furious :furious dont have HBO here and wasnt going to get it just to watch this show, ive heard its really good and well directed, hopefully it will come out on a DVD collection soon©™
Too bad. There were numerous promotions in recent months with cable and satellite operators offering special limited time huge discounts on signing up for HBO at only a fraction of the normal cost. I got on with Comcast, and I can cancel my HBO at any time with no penalty. So once the Pacific is over, I have no obligation at all to keep HBO.
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http://www.hbo.com/the-pacific/index.html
thanks for the link rusty!
that was INTENSE! and its just episode 1!
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someone else posted it on page 4 I think :D
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Yeah I remember hearing about that coup attempt. History did a special about how it was partially thwarted by a B-29 raid.
the kyujo incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_Incident
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can see it here 4 free
http://www.fancast.com/tv/The-Pacific/101664/1424689664/The-Pacific-Part-One-%28HBO%29/videos?cmpid=FCST_hp_xfinitytv
or here
http://www.hbo.com/the-pacific/index.html
woo hoo thanks man watching it now, its amazing
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Sorry, but I do not bother to read such utter garbage. Authors who want to re-write history to make the USA look to be no different than Japan in terms of morality or culpability are liberal trash in my mind.
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This "garbage" is not revisionist history. The author is a professor of history at MIT, a Pulitzer Prize winner, and a recognized authority on the subject. The first time you see the picture of U.S. Marines boiling Japanese skulls on Guadalcanal to make keepsakes to send back home, you'll understand that the U.S. Marines were capable of some pretty horrendous stuff. He also analyzes American and Japanese propaganda during the war. If you actually read the book, you'll see that he does not subscribe any culpability for the war to the U.S, nor does he try and pass judgment on anyone. His point in the book is to only highlight the racism perpetuated by both sides of the conflict, and how it contributed to the extreme brutality of the PTO conflict, created the "no-quarter" relationship between the two sides, and ultimately increased the violence and casualties that resulted when compared to western-front ETO.
I was a military history major, and I am a former U.S. Marine officer, and in my opinion, this book is a "must" read for anyone wanting to have a rational understanding of the Pacific war. I am sorry that you're not open minded enough to consider this as worthwhile reading because I don't think any opinion on the prosecution of the Pacific campaign can be considered outside of the context of the racial differences between Japan and the Allies.
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To add to Stoney's post, did you bother actually WATCHING the video link I posted? That was actually comparatively mild compared to some of the anti-Japanese propaganda the US was using at the time.
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Exactly on target. Imperial Japan was probably the most racist nation on the entire planet. Even more so than Nazi Germany.
To try to equate the USA's behavior in WWII to that of Japan is outlandish at best, and anti-American at worst, in my opinion.
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Ok, i just want to know one thing, how possibly can you be more racist then Nazi Germany. Japan didnt even come close to Nazi Germany. You are aware of the fact that Nazis put hordes of people into the friggin owen right.
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can see it here 4 free
http://www.fancast.com/tv/The-Pacific/101664/1424689664/The-Pacific-Part-One-%28HBO%29/videos?cmpid=FCST_hp_xfinitytv
or here
http://www.hbo.com/the-pacific/index.html
Only thing is I think that there just giving episode 1 out for free, kinda giving people a taste for it so they'll order HBO to see the rest, I'll be shocked if they put the rest of the series out for free after spending 200 million to make it.
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Twinengine..........really?
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Only thing is I think that there just giving episode 1 out for free, kinda giving people a taste for it so they'll order HBO to see the rest, I'll be shocked if they put the rest of the series out for free after spending 200 million to make it.
The Bastages!! :devil
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yup :furious
The Bastages!! :devil
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This "garbage" is not revisionist history. The author is a professor of history at MIT, a Pulitzer Prize winner, and a recognized authority on the subject. The first time you see the picture of U.S. Marines boiling Japanese skulls on Guadalcanal to make keepsakes to send back home, you'll understand that the U.S. Marines were capable of some pretty horrendous stuff. He also analyzes American and Japanese propaganda during the war. If you actually read the book, you'll see that he does not subscribe any culpability for the war to the U.S, nor does he try and pass judgment on anyone. His point in the book is to only highlight the racism perpetuated by both sides of the conflict, and how it contributed to the extreme brutality of the PTO conflict, created the "no-quarter" relationship between the two sides, and ultimately increased the violence and casualties that resulted when compared to western-front ETO.
I was a military history major, and I am a former U.S. Marine officer, and in my opinion, this book is a "must" read for anyone wanting to have a rational understanding of the Pacific war. I am sorry that you're not open minded enough to consider this as worthwhile reading because I don't think any opinion on the prosecution of the Pacific campaign can be considered outside of the context of the racial differences between Japan and the Allies.
Being an MIT Professor hardly mean a thing actually. Pulitzer prize winners rate no higher these days either. Sadly most anything can fit in those catagories.
As for the movie... I'll wait till it comes out on other channels to see it. That is if I hear it's good or interesting. I'm not a fan of HBO.
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Ok, i just want to know one thing, how possibly can you be more racist then Nazi Germany. Japan didnt even come close to Nazi Germany. You are aware of the fact that Nazis put hordes of people into the friggin owen right.
That's just the Germans being their typical efficient industrious selves. How you murder people have no bearing on your motivation for doing so. The Japanese killed 20-odd million Chinese, mostly civilians, and half a million of them died in medical experiments.
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Being an MIT Professor hardly mean a thing actually. Pulitzer prize winners rate no higher these days either. Sadly most anything can fit in those catagories.
As for the movie... I'll wait till it comes out on other channels to see it. That is if I hear it's good or interesting. I'm not a fan of HBO.
You tell me your yardstick for credibility and I'll see if I can find something for you then. How about my opinion by itself? Probably not good enough either.
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Ok, i just want to know one thing, how possibly can you be more racist then Nazi Germany. Japan didnt even come close to Nazi Germany. You are aware of the fact that Nazis put hordes of people into the friggin owen right.
So you are totally unaware of the horrendous atrocities committed by Japan in the countries that it occupied?
China alone claims that the Japanese killed more of their citizens than the Nazis killed Jews.
I love all of this silly revisionist history. The Japanese are actually by far the worst at doing this.
Just this past October 31st in 2008, the chief of staff of Japan's Air Self-Defense Force Toshio Tamogami was fired due to an essay he published, arguing that Japan was not an aggressor during World War II, and that the war brought prosperity to China, Taiwan and Korea. He also argued that the Imperial Japanese Army's conduct was not violent and that the Greater East Asia War is viewed in a positive way by many Asian countries. He also greatly criticized the war crimes trials that the United States conducted following the war.
When the essay became public knowledge, it caused an international outrage, especially in many of the Asian nations victimized by Japan that he claimed had appreciated the war. Even here in the USA, it was big news. Don't you recall this news story?? It received quite a bit of coverage by the national press here.
Every August here where I live, there are annual protests against the United States, accusing the USA of war crimes in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every August our local press gives this lots of free publicity, and we get to hear year after year what an evil and vile nation we live in here in the USA.
I've read detailed accounts of these protests, and local essays by the leaders that have been published by our local press. I've never gone to attend one, though, as I honestly would feel compelled to spit on these folks. I did by pure chance once drive by one of the protests, though, and saw the crowd assembled together to say "Never Again."
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So you are totally unaware of the horrendous atrocities committed by Japan in the countries that it occupied?
China alone claims that the Japanese killed more of their citizens than the Nazis killed Jews.
I love all of this silly revisionist history. The Japanese are actually by far the worst at doing this.
Just this past October 31st in 2008, the chief of staff of Japan's Air Self-Defense Force Toshio Tamogami was fired due to an essay he published, arguing that Japan was not an aggressor during World War II, and that the war brought prosperity to China, Taiwan and Korea. He also argued that the Imperial Japanese Army's conduct was not violent and that the Greater East Asia War is viewed in a positive way by many Asian countries. He also greatly criticized the war crimes trials that the United States conducted following the war.
When the essay became public knowledge, it caused an international outrage, especially in many of the Asian nations victimized by Japan that he claimed had appreciated the war. Even here in the USA, it was big news. Don't you recall this news story?? It received quite a bit of coverage by the national press here.
Every August here where I live, there are annual protests against the United States, accusing the USA of war crimes in the atomic bombings of Tokyo and Nagasaki. Every August our local press gives this lots of free publicity, and we get to hear year after year what an evil and vile nation we live in here in the USA.
I've read detailed accounts of these protests, and local essays by the leaders that have been published by our local press. I've never gone to attend one, though, as I honestly would feel compelled to spit on these folks. I did by pure chance once drive by one of the protests, though, and saw the crowd assembled together to say "Never Again."
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We dropped atomic bombs on Tokyo? :O
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That's just the Germans being their typical efficient industrious selves. How you murder people have no bearing on your motivation for doing so. The Japanese killed 20-odd million Chinese, mostly civilians, and half a million of them died in medical experiments.
arguing over the degrees/severity of racism is not really important. bottom line is, racism in germany is just the same as racism in japan or in america.
(they all yield the same results in the extreme for the victim = death by oven, mutilation or lynching- respectively).
wonder if the storyline will touch on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
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China alone claims that the Japanese killed more of their citizens than the Nazis killed Jews.
1. Chine "claims", I'd like to see the numbers please.
2. Really, who believes in china :rolleyes:
3. Nazis wiped out a race in the entire continent of Europe.
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arguing over the degrees/severity of racism is not really important. bottom line is, racism in germany is just the same as racism in japan or in america.
(they all yield the same results in the extreme for the victim = death by oven, mutilation or lynching- respectively).
That is utter nonsense. You would equate events here in the USA, with events that took place in Nazi Germany, or in the lands occupied by Japan?
That is inconceivable to me.
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3. Nazis wiped out a race in the entire continent of Europe.
Not really. Many tough Jews survived. How do you think that the nation of Israel came about, if every Jew was dead?
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This picture goes for both.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h83/ezpl/4ecddbf0vc1.jpg)
See rules #2,3,4,5, possibly 6 and 14.
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That is utter nonsense. You would equate events here in the USA, with events that took place in Nazi Germany, or in the lands occupied by Japan?
That is inconceivable to me.
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as i said, i am weighing it from the viewpoint of the victim. all racism yields the same results for the victim, it does not matter where it is committed.
if you were the one hanging under a tree, wouldn't you share the same views?
is the selling/trading of persons and breaking up of families(for profit) "less brutal" than being gassed in the oven?
is japan's racism practiced in ~five years of war against the chinese "less brutal" than the enslavement/maltreatment of african-americans for over ~150 years?
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1. Chine "claims", I'd like to see the numbers please.
2. Really, who believes in china :rolleyes:
3. Nazis wiped out a race in the entire continent of Europe.
I really hope you're being sarcastic...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/World_War_II_Casualties.svg/546px-World_War_II_Casualties.svg.png)
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This picture goes for both.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h83/ezpl/4ecddbf0vc1.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4443775879_6b57fcbdcf_o.jpg)
So instead of debating this any further in a rational manner, all that you can engage in here now is to smear me with this silly Personal Attack in the above image??
NOTE TO ADMINS: Since I believe that Fudgums may simply delete this image that he posted in order to conceal the fact that he engaged in a personal attack, I included it above so that you can see exactly what he posted.
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When I read what you said here and in the past, it seemed right to post the picture...
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is the selling/trading of persons and breaking up of families(for profit) "less brutal" than being gassed in the oven?
That is a totally invalid comparison that you have made here, as you are talking about different centuries.
Your argument is very similar to those who minimize all of the religious killings being done currently in the name of Islam, by pointing out that the Crusades took place several hundred years ago.
To be fair, you must compare actions that take place in the same era.
Most societies evolve. I'm confident that Japan will never again engage in the sort of military aggressions and horrific atrocities that it did last century.
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1. Chine "claims", I'd like to see the numbers please.
2. Really, who believes in china :rolleyes:
3. Nazis wiped out a race in the entire continent of Europe.
:huh :O
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When I read what you said here and in the past, it seemed right to post the picture...
It is my understanding that personal attacks are not allowed here in this forum.
No doubt you posted this photo in an attempt to be able to easily hide later what you posted. However, I reposted the image in my reply to you, so the admins will be able to see that you indeed made a personal attack against me.
There is no way now for you to be able to conceal this fact.
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It is my understanding that personal attacks are not allowed here in this forum.
No doubt you posted this photo in an attempt to be able to easily hide later what you posted. However, I reposted the image in my reply to you, so the admins will be able to see that you indeed made a personal attack against me.
There is no way now for you to be able to conceal this fact.
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You posted it twice, and no I won't edit my post.
*forgetting that this wasn't FW :rolleyes:
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You posted it twice, and no I won't edit my post.
*forgetting that this wasn't FW :rolleyes:
Yes, I uploaded the image to another server. So even if you were to delete the image from your photo account, a copy of it will still remain, showing the personal attack that you made against me.
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For pete's sake people... can't we have a nice debate?
No, instead we have labeling and bomb throwing instead of rational debate.
Pathetic, again the community in AH shows it cannot police itself.
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Sorry, but I do not bother to read such utter garbage. Authors who want to re-write history to make the USA look to be no different than Japan in terms of morality or culpability are liberal trash in my mind.
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You're delusional and have been lead very far astray by the modern "know nothings". That is not to say that one should have so open a mind as to have it fall out, or to trust something just because it is from an "authority" on the subject, but saying that people who have studied a subject for years have no more validity than a loudmouth pontificating about it on the internet is the height of idiocy.
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What happen to this thread, wasn't it supposed to be about the T.V series the Pacific?
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Yes, I uploaded the image to another server. So even if you were to delete the image from your photo account, a copy of it will still remain, showing the personal attack that you made against me.
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Imnot taking sides in this at all ,,,,But i did read th epost that fudgums wrote and in no way did I see your name. So , How do you know that was a personal attack when no mention of anyone wa sin the script?
Yes you have a right tro tell fudgums what you think of his post ,,,, But sending it to the admins is just childish in itself .M<ost people take care of thier own battles With the exception of a few kids I know of
Not meant to upset , just an adults point of view !
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What happen to this thread, wasn't it supposed to be about the T.V series the Pacific?
And this was just the first episode.
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What happen to this thread, wasn't it supposed to be about the T.V series the Pacific?
Well, ya know...some people would argue with a fence post if they thought they were right...even though they may be misinformed. :headscratch:
I liked the first episode. I can tell it's not going to be "just another Band of Brothers"...those guys all started out the same way, unsure and unknowing...by episode 10 those of us who choose to watch the entire series may have a small inkling of what they learned by the time it ended.
You critics need to set aside your preconceived notions as to what you expect to see, and watch the story completely before making any judgments.
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You tell me your yardstick for credibility and I'll see if I can find something for you then. How about my opinion by itself? Probably not good enough either.
I've seen quite a few profs on TV that were talking out their butts about history. I remember one from
Ohio State that claimed we wasted all our money on defense during the Cold War because "the Russians
had NO intention of invading Europe." I guess all those tanks were going to be turned into pillboxes :rolleyes:
Armor is an offensive weapon system, fire and movement are it's strengths.
So this guy may or may not be credible...haven't seen him. But he doesn't get a pass from me simply due
to his job title.
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By that logic we had intentions of invading the Soviets since we had tanks in western Europe. After all, tanks can only be used for offence right? :lol
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And this was just the first episode.
and its all your fault LOL
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I've seen quite a few profs on TV that were talking out their butts about history. I remember one from
Ohio State that claimed we wasted all our money on defense during the Cold War because "the Russians
had NO intention of invading Europe." I guess all those tanks were going to be turned into pillboxes :rolleyes:
Armor is an offensive weapon system, fire and movement are it's strengths.
So this guy may or may not be credible...haven't seen him. But he doesn't get a pass from me simply due
to his job title.
That's fine--I'll ask you the same question that you quoted then. What's the yardstick for credibility? If, in making an argument, I reference a source that I deem to be credible, then identify that source so that anyone else can read what he wrote and judge for themselves whether or not its credible, and then form my argument using that source as reinforcement, I think that's what usually is considered a cogent argument. You guys don't have to agree with me, but don't simply dismiss his work, just because you've seen some so-called "expert" on the Discovery channel blathering about some topic. I'm talking about a recognized historian that's considered an expert by peers. Sort of like if I quoted Stephen Ambrose in a discussion about Dwight D. Eisenhower...
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That's fine--I'll ask you the same question that you quoted then. What's the yardstick for credibility?
Credibility is not reinforced by denouncing a US/NATO build up during the Cold War simply because the historian has the luxury of hindsight (using Rino's example).
A good historian is able to view the world accurately from the eyes of the participants at the moment in question. An even better historian and storyteller can make someone without knowledge of the period see the same and understand the outcome of the event.
Will the Pacific be the storytelling I'm hoping it will be? Only time will tell...
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Imnot taking sides in this at all ,,,,But i did read th epost that fudgums wrote and in no way did I see your name. So , How do you know that was a personal attack when no mention of anyone wa sin the
Well, as you can see, he has since edited the post. In the original post, he quoted not just one but two of my earlier posts inside his post, and then he said that the text within that image was in specific response to both of them. That reference was the only thing that I quoted from his message, besides the image. There is absolutely no question that the personal attack message in that image was being directed personally at me, as he originally quoted TWO of my posts in the message. And what is up with hiding a personal attack by posting it as an image within a message? That seemed rather bizarre to me for him to go to such extreme lengths. It is clear that he is trying to get around the forum rules against making personal attacks, by later editing his post to remove the attack. Since I had copied the image, though, he could not hide the fact that he had sent that.
So I am sorry, it was clearly as direct a reference as one can possibly make towards another person.
I honestly don't understand what beef he has with any of my posts, as he has not really explained himself. Was he upset with my long post about Marine Sgt John Basilone ( one of the Marines being profiled in the Pacific ), honoring his amazing heroism during the war? Or did he have some complaint about my post all about the Browning M1917A1 machine gun, detailing its history and extraordinary achievements?
Of is he upset with how I have defended the United States Marines and the United States of America, regarding our behavior in WWII? My position is simply that we fought a completely just war in the Pacific in WWII. Statements like the ones Tom Hanks made last week that US Troops were racist and ignorant are completely unfair, in my opinion. He even used those terms during the Pacific press events to describe our soldiers currently fighting in Afghanistan. I'm sorry, but that is being disrespectful to our brave soldiers that are risking their lives to protect our country, in my opinion.
So I'm sorry, but the USA was indeed the "good guys" in the war, and the Japanese were indeed the "bad guys". They were just as evil and inhuman as the Nazis ever were. WWII was a just and noble fight for the United States of America. The Japanese deserved everything that they got.
That is my viewpoint of the war.
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You tell me your yardstick for credibility and I'll see if I can find something for you then. How about my opinion by itself? Probably not good enough either.
I'm not argueing your opinion or the MIT fellas.
I'm only pointing out that being an MIT professor means nothing in the real world.
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Statements like the ones Tom Hanks made last week that US Troops were racist and ignorant are completely unfair, in my opinion. He even used those terms during the Pacific press events to describe our soldiers currently fighting in Afghanistan.
Well, to be honest...as a former Marine and Army brat...many were and are racist...consider that our WWII fighting forces were made up of citizens from our country and the socially accepted attitudes toward race were also militarily adopted practices...the military didn't desegregate until the 1950s...it's not hard to figure many U.S. servicemen were racist. Racism was an accepted part of life in many countries at the time...not just the U.S., Japan and Germany...and those values came from thousands of years of human prejudice toward one another based on everything from skin color to eating habits.
Fair or not, it's a fact of life and it's true...those servicemen and women carry all of the values they grew up with, good and bad.
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A good historian is able to view the world accurately from the eyes of the participants at the moment in question. An even better historian and storyteller can make someone without knowledge of the period see the same and understand the outcome of the event.
this i completely agree with. all my posts about war atrocities are simply meant to elucidate the thread readers regarding the racist views held by the participants in the pacific conflict.
as i said, all racism is wrong and arguing about who did worse or didn't do it as bad is not as important as understanding the effects of said beliefs on the victims.
i would also appreciate if we police ourselves better, making personal attacks really just is unproductive and detracts from the substance of this thread. :salute
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the pacific war was a hundredfold more brutal than the ETO.
On the Western Front, yes. The war in PTO was far more barbaric and primal than what the Allies saw in western Europe, Italy and North Africa. However, the war on the Eastern Front was probably the most barbaric war humanity has fought in centuries.
ack-ack
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That said, the propaganda during the war years was far more cruel to the Japanese than it was to the Germans. Yes, Hitler was constantly mocked in posters, comics, and even cartoons but I've never seen the individual German soldier or German citizen mocked with images of an individual wearing thick glasses, with buck teeth, and an inability to grasp basic thought.
Nor did you see in any official US military training documents that mention things like "Germans can't stand the sun because of their blond hair and golden skin complexion" but you'll find numerous references in early USAAC/USAAF documents about Japanese pilots not being able to have the far vision of Western pilots due to their slanted eyes or how Japanese soldiers preferred banzai attacks at night because their slanted vision gives them better night vision.
This is a reproduction tin of a WW2 propoganda poster that were placed in factories towards the end of the war.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm94/Ack-Ack/th_Picture003.jpg) (http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm94/Ack-Ack/Picture003.jpg?t=1269042481)
ack-ack
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And this was just the first episode.
Want to start a pool that after the 2nd episode the majority of the posts will say "see rule #4"?
ack-ack
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Let's make an effort to prevent that shall we? Let's keep it civil and within the rules.
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Don't hang you butt out in the wind and it won't get chapped.
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I just watched it again, I recommend everyone should. I connected a little better with the main characters from that episode.
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That's fine--I'll ask you the same question that you quoted then. What's the yardstick for credibility? If, in making an argument, I reference a source that I deem to be credible, then identify that source so that anyone else can read what he wrote and judge for themselves whether or not its credible, and then form my argument using that source as reinforcement, I think that's what usually is considered a cogent argument. You guys don't have to agree with me, but don't simply dismiss his work, just because you've seen some so-called "expert" on the Discovery channel blathering about some topic. I'm talking about a recognized historian that's considered an expert by peers. Sort of like if I quoted Stephen Ambrose in a discussion about Dwight D. Eisenhower...
It's the peers part I have a problem with. Because it's something you agree with doesn't mean it's the only valid
viewpoint. Some of us don't have to watch TV to get our facts straight, so you can stick that insult right where it's
most uncomfortable. Think only college grads can read?
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It's the peers part I have a problem with. Because it's something you agree with doesn't mean it's the only valid
viewpoint. Some of us don't have to watch TV to get our facts straight, so you can stick that insult right where it's
most uncomfortable. Think only college grads can read?
You have completely missed the point. Sorry I didn't communicate it better.
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i would also appreciate if we police ourselves better, making personal attacks really just is unproductive and detracts from the substance of this thread.
After reading this thread, I've concluded the majority of this bbs is comprised of a buncha nancys :cry :cry :cry
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By that logic we had intentions of invading the Soviets since we had tanks in western Europe. After all, tanks can only be used for offence right? :lol
I know you work very hard at being stupid, but even a lawyer should be able to get this. The tank was
created as a offensive weapon to penetrate the trenchlines in WW1. The tank can be used defensively but
it is designed to attack not defend. You don't manufacture 40K+ tanks to defend a border brainiac.
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Well, to be honest...as a former Marine and Army brat...many were and are racist...consider that our WWII fighting forces were made up of citizens from our country and the socially accepted attitudes toward race were also militarily adopted practices...the military didn't desegregate until the 1950s...it's not hard to figure many U.S. servicemen were racist. Racism was an accepted part of life in many countries at the time...not just the U.S., Japan and Germany...and those values came from thousands of years of human prejudice toward one another based on everything from skin color to eating habits.
Fair or not, it's a fact of life and it's true...those servicemen and women carry all of the values they grew up with, good and bad.
A lot of this probably isn't far from the truth, considering what some of the socially accepted beliefs and behavior was back then.
One of my favorite books has the following introduction.
Practically everything in this book actually happened, so it's not really a novel. Yet these people and events have been altered, so you can't call it a nonfiction. It's an Exaggeration.
Not exaggerated, however, is the bigotry of the 1940's, here expressed. The people of Gopher Squadron were racists and sexists. We felt some small guilt about the former, but not about the later because we never heard the word. To us, it was perfectly natural to think of women as, among many other things, sex objects, and to regard the machines we admired in terms we also applied to women.
That was the way we were.
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I know you work very hard at being stupid, but even a lawyer should be able to get this. The tank was
created as a offensive weapon to penetrate the trenchlines in WW1. The tank can be used defensively but
it is designed to attack not defend. You don't manufacture 40K+ tanks to defend a border brainiac.
In 1981 NATO had a total of 30,711 tanks in Europe. If the Soviets built their tanks to invade western Europe what did we build our tanks for? Did we build 30K+ tanks to defend a border? Is the magical production number somewhere between 30K and 40K where you can only use your tanks for attack? It's very... "convenient" to say that they planned to attack because they built tens-of-thousands of tanks, while we built tens-of-thousands of tanks only "to defend a border". I don't buy it and neither do you, though you'll never admit it.
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The day Hiroshima was bombed was terrible.
So was that day at Pearl.
And that day in Nanking.
And that day in Warsaw.
And London.
And Coventry.
.. etc. .. etc..
'What goes around comes around' .. and in the case of the Axis .. it came around in SPADES.
'You mess with the Bull .. you get the HORNS' .. and so on.
The best comparison on a personal level is fighting a drunk.
You have to hurt them very badly to make them STOP .. because they will *not* otherwise.
Colonel Tibbets expressed it very well ..he said he'd do it again in a heartbeat .. it was War.
-GE aka Frank
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. . . . Every August here where I live, there are annual protests against the United States, accusing the USA of war crimes in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every August our local press gives this lots of free publicity, and we get to hear year after year what an evil and vile nation we live in here in the USA.
I've read detailed accounts of these protests, and local essays by the leaders that have been published by our local press. I've never gone to attend one, though, as I honestly would feel compelled to spit on these folks. I did by pure chance once drive by one of the protests, though, and saw the crowd assembled together to say "Never Again."
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Where do you live?
I lived in Japan for 6+ yrs in the 80's and early 90's, and attended many of these annual August anti-nuclear demonstrations. They were not "anti-American", but were definitely "anti-nuclear weapons and nuclear war".
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Personally, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved more lives than it took. Just my opinion.
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Personally, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved more lives than it took. Just my opinion.
Definitely, you know I was watching something on the Military Channel about the bombs dropped on Japan and they had this Japanese guy on there saying how inhuman the U.S was to drop the bombs, it got me really mad, I mean how can they say that crap about us when they were doing the most evil things to the P.O.W's they had, they were the monsters, look at the way we handled our P.O.W's compared to them.
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Definitely, you know I was watching something on the Military Channel about the bombs dropped on Japan and they had this Japanese guy on there saying how inhuman the U.S was to drop the bombs, it got me really mad, I mean how can they say that crap about us when they were doing the most evil things to the P.O.W's they had, they were the monsters, look at the way we handled our P.O.W's compared to them.
Two wrongs never make a right.
I agree the dropping of the atomic bombs saved uniformed military lives..... but at the cost of 300,000 civilians.
The bombings did allow Hirohito to gain temporary control over the shocked military and end the war, even as armed skirmishes between factions were erupting around his palace, as well.
You can personally judge the positives gained, hopefully without flag draped glasses. I'd say it put us about even, personally, but I'm more of a realist.
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Hey Moray, we are missing your deep insight over at the jet performance graphs thread.
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Hey Moray, we are missing your deep insight over at the jet performance graphs thread.
Wasn't my personal insight. But, it was your personal attacks.
Not worth my time. I simply don't agree that the SU-27s is the same crappy Russian engineering as the Mig-25 and I proved it.
But, keep bringing your personal vendettas to different threads.
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Two wrongs never make a right.
I agree the dropping of the atomic bombs saved uniformed military lives..... but at the cost of 300,000 civilians.
The bombings did allow Hirohito to gain temporary control over the shocked military and end the war, even as armed skirmishes between factions were erupting around his palace, as well.
You can personally judge the positives gained, hopefully without flag draped glasses. I'd say it put us about even, personally, but I'm more of a realist.
How many civilians would've been lost if the war continued and Operation Olympic went on?
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How does this compare to band of brothers? I really enjoyed that.
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Pacific is starting out a bit faster into the action then B o B, and that is not a criticism of B o B either. A bit less character development but gets gritty none the less. I like the first episode of The Pacific quite a bit. The trailers and teasers seem to make the later episodes at least as good or better.
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How many civilians would've been lost if the war continued and Operation Olympic went on?
That is a valid question, but the other one still remains.... would those civilians have been targeted or would they have been strictly collateral?
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How many civilians would've been lost if the war continued and Operation Olympic went on?
The estimates for military losses were based on events like Palau, Iwo and Okinawa, while civilian estimates were somewhat estimated from the experience of Okinava. All in all, the bulk of the Japanese armed forces would be estimated as casualties, added by some 4-5 million civilians. Allied casualties around 1.5 millions.
These are from the top of my head, but I'd say they were careful.
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Here's the million dollar question:
Would have a demonstration of the A-bomb frightened the Japanese into surrender?
I know that people say that Hiroshima was the the demonstration and Nagasaki was the proof that a demonstration would not have been effective and would have only wasted a very valuable weapon BUT...
What do all of you brainiacs think?
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That is a valid question, but the other one still remains.... would those civilians have been targeted or would they have been strictly collateral?
I'll answer with a question.
Would the civilians of Japan start fighting as well?
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No good can come of this...
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Two wrongs never make a right.
I agree the dropping of the atomic bombs saved uniformed military lives..... but at the cost of 300,000 civilians.
The bombings did allow Hirohito to gain temporary control over the shocked military and end the war, even as armed skirmishes between factions were erupting around his palace, as well.
You can personally judge the positives gained, hopefully without flag draped glasses. I'd say it put us about even, personally, but I'm more of a realist.
The thing is what we did by dropping the bombs was to end the war quickly and try and avoid more American soldiers from losing their lives, what the Japanese did to our P.O.W's was just plain evil and sadistic, they forced them to work themselves to death, starved them, and did medical experiments on them, if you ask me that shows who the real inhuman people were, and that was the point I was making about why it made me angry when that guy said that about us.
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If I was Commander in Chief, I would of used the bomb without question, every time for many reasons.
1. Would it save American lives? Yes, as President you are responsible for the military and their lives.
2. Would it demonstrate to the Russians to conclude the war, rather than continue it? Yes, Russia would be much less willing to attempt to gobble up Western Europe after the Allies were shipped home.
3. Would it save Japanese lives? Yes, far more Japanese lives would of been lost (civilian and military) if an invasion occurred. If you need proof of that, watch the civilians jumping off the cliffs in Saipan and the military flying one way trips to our fleets in everything from aircraft without landing gear and rockets with a bomb in front of them (Ohka). Heck, they didn't even surrender after the first bomb was dropped, do you think they would have surrendered to an invasion fleet?
Frankly, whoever says they would not drop it is kidding themselves and not putting themselves in Truman's shoes.
edit: I'm not a hawk, I hate nuclear weapons and the very threat they continue to pose today, especially from smaller devices in the hands of rogue states/terrorist groups.
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The thing is what we did by dropping the bombs was to end the war quickly and try and avoid more American soldiers from losing their lives, what the Japanese did to our P.O.W's was just plain evil and sadistic, they forced them to work themselves to death, starved them, and did medical experiments on them, if you ask me that shows who the real inhuman people were, and that was the point I was making about why it made me angry when that guy said that about us.
People do what they do....and it isn't confined or directed at one race or another. Any time one group of people fancies themselves "better" than another group, the door is opened for immoral behavior, something all sides participated in during WW2. This isn't up for argument or discussion, all sides committed atrocities.
By making Japanese atrocities the comparison for American A-Bomb drop, you therefore put each on equal footing.
That is my point.
The only moral point we may engage in would be the American push for the Nuremberg Trials when all other allied powers were pushing for summary execution without trial of officers suspected in the planning of and carrying out of said atrocities. IMO, that was the highest point of morality found throughout the entire war, and it's criminal we have forgotten it.
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I'll answer with a question.
Would the civilians of Japan start fighting as well?
to the last man, woman and child.
dropping the a-bomb was the right decision. twice.
should've also used the bomb on beijing and pyongyang, as macarthur wanted.
that general right there has real marbles as big as the moon. :rock :rock :rock
also, the fire-bombing of tokyo and other cities killed more civilians than the two a-bombs combined.
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The estimates for military losses were based on events like Palau, Iwo and Okinawa, while civilian estimates were somewhat estimated from the experience of Okinava. All in all, the bulk of the Japanese armed forces would be estimated as casualties, added by some 4-5 million civilians. Allied casualties around 1.5 millions.
These are from the top of my head, but I'd say they were careful.
Dead is dead, whether targeted or otherwise.
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Not worth my time. I simply don't agree that the SU-27s is the same crappy Russian engineering as the Mig-25 and I proved it.
No, you didn't prove it at all. Just like you didn't prove how technogically advanced the Germans were over the Allies during World War II. That one blew up in your face when you used the fact that the US Army still had a couple of cavalry units at the start of the war as proof the Germans were more advanced.
ack-ack
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No, you didn't prove it at all. Just like you didn't prove how technogically advanced the Germans were over the Allies during World War II. That one blew up in your face when you used the fact that the US Army still had a couple of cavalry units at the start of the war as proof the Germans were more advanced.
ack-ack
No, the point was that the US was still reliant upon cavalry units for attacking, in an offensive role. The Germans had transitioned to an armored spearhead, while we were attempting to catch up. German horse based units were utilized in mobility and transportation roles.
Apparently you wish to look directly past the facts.
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No, the point was that the US was still reliant upon cavalry units for attacking, in an offensive role. The Germans had transitioned to an armored spearhead, while we were attempting to catch up. German horse based units were utilized in mobility and transportation roles.
Apparently you wish to look directly past the facts.
If I was you, you should be the one to look up the facts. Not only did the German army use horses for most transportation needs throughout the entire war, they also fielded cavalry units throughout the entire war.
Where do I begin? The German army used cavalry units from the beginning of the war until their surrender in 1945. Below is a list of the German cavalry units.
1st Cavalry Division (later 24th Panzer Division)
3rd Cavalry Division
4th Cavalry Division
Cossack Cavalry Division (unit was transferred to the Waffen-SS, where it was split to form the 1st & 2nd Cossack Cavalry Divisions as part of the XV SS Cossack Cavalry Corps)
Most remember stories of the famous cavalry charges by the Polish army during the Invasion of Poland, but what is not as well known are the two cavalry charges by the German army.
Królewskie Forests near town Krzynowłoga Mała - 01.09 - Polish - German cavalry horse fierce skirmish - German cavalry horse charge with sabres:
Small Polish patrol from 11th Leggionary Ulan Regiment (Mazowiecka Cavalry Brigade) under command of lieutenant Wladislaw Kossakowski during the reconessaince mission, met small German cavalry patrol from 1st Cavalry Brigade. Kossakowski decided to start a battle - close combat with sabres and probably lances on Polish side (this was one of a few incidents during the campaign, when Polish cavalry used lances), and with sabres on German side.
Kossakowski wrote:
"At the end of our march, in the edge of small forest clearing, we saw small German cavalry unit. They didn't see us, but their positions were crossing the road and blocking our march direction. I asked other officers - are we charging? As the answer, I heard noice of sabres being pulled out from sheaths. We made a pre-charge formation and charged towards them from the forest, screaming - Hurray! The shock tactic was succesfull, but - what surprised us - this time German cavalry didn't panic or withdraw, but re-charged us using sabres - also screaming Hurray! and occasionally - Heil Hitler! - two brave charging cavalry units, screaming, brandishing with sabres and bending down in saddles, were going to head-on collision! After few seconds, we reached them and they reached us. Two cavalry formations crushed in one battle - but our impetus was greater. In fact, both formations just passed each other - but there were casualties on both sides. I remember, that corporal Juckiewicz stuffed a German cavalryman with his lance - German soldier just moaned and died. After this short but fierce and bloody combat, we galloped in our way and those of Germans who survived - galloped in their way. We were all unconcsious from emotions and excitement, but kept riding - after few minutes we reached our infantry with MGs and mortars positions - great relief. Finally, our patrol joined our regiment in the late evening"
"Charge by Krasnobród - 23.09.1939:
2nd Polish cavalry squadron (from 25th Cavalry Regiment) is attacking (in foot formation) German infantry - hand granades, rifles and MGs, together with artillery support (9th Horse Artillery Command) force German infantry to withdraw in great mess. German chaotic and fast withdrawal makes an opportunity to make a cavalry charge:
Other Polish cavalry unit (1st squadron under command of lieutenant Tadeusz Gerlecki) is charging and chasing panicked German Infantry which is now running away, crushed and completely disorganized - one squadron of German heavy "Eastern Prussian" cavalry with strong, heavy horses, charge with sabres towards Polish cavalry, trying to rescue rests of defeated German Infantry:
"It was amazing view - against Polish ulans charged German cavalry units - Polish squadron - charging in a single line formation - with lances directed towards Germans, was closing to the charging enemy. Enemy cavalry was charging with sabres in chaotic, messy formation. Finally, units striked each other. Polish cavalry - well disciplined, better trained for horse fighting and supported by Polish 9th Horse Artillery Command - crushed Germans. Polish sabres together with Polish artillery fire, crushed Prussians - German cavalry suffered heavy losses."
Prussian cavalry was also charging against 2nd squadron positions, which was defending in foot formation with MGs and rifles - German charge was rejected (mainly because of Polish artillery support and MGs fire) with quite heavy losses for them. But there is no doubt, that German cavalry charge gave the minute of peace to the Infantry, and help in its withdrawal, giving an opportunity to rest for a few minutes without being attacked, decrease panic, and - partially - regroup.
Polish cavalry attack supported infantry, and inficted on re-taking the city of Krasnobród from German hands, and capturing the headquarters & staff of German 8. Infanterie-Division together with many divisional commanders and staff officers. "
There was also a Waffen-SS cavalry division, the 8th SS Cavalry Division Florian Geyer.
Insignia of the 8th SS Cavalry Division
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/8th_SS_Division_Logo.svg/125px-8th_SS_Division_Logo.svg.png)
German soldier of the 3rd Cavalry Division adjusting the bridle on his horse.
(http://www.odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum13/k2_copy.jpg)
Soldiers of the 8th SS Cavalry on the Eastern Front.
(http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/germanhorse/fig4_german_waffenss_cavalry_4th_ss.jpg)
Members of the 8th SS Cavalry crossing a stream in Russia.
(http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/germanhorse/fig5_german_waffenss_cavalry_river_crossing.jpg)
2nd Cossack Cavalry troop forming up prior to a charge.
(http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/germanhorse/fig6_cossack_cavalry_in_german_service_wwii.jpg)
In contrast, by the beginning of the war the US Army was already disbanding their horse cavalry units and reorganizing them as mechanized units and the last US cavalry charge took place in 1942 in the Philippines.
So, you were saying?
ack-ack
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(http://www.liverpool.com/assets/_files/images/jun_07/lb_liv__1182513903_catfight_new_large.jpg)
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(http://www.liverpool.com/assets/_files/images/jun_07/lb_liv__1182513903_catfight_new_large.jpg)
:rofl
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to the last man, woman and child.
dropping the a-bomb was the right decision. twice.
should've also used the bomb on beijing and pyongyang, as macarthur wanted.
that general right there has real marbles as big as the moon. :rock :rock :rock
also, the fire-bombing of tokyo and other cities killed more civilians than the two a-bombs combined.
British civilians were told to do the same. Does that make the blitz bombing ok?
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British civilians were told to do the same. Does that make the blitz bombing ok?
History (and the inherent morality contained) is always written by the victors.
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History (and the inherent morality contained) is always written by the victors.
Sometimes, when the loser writes history you get the kind of nonsense shown here...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/11/AR2008111100952.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/11/AR2008111100952.html)
My regards,
Widewing
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Yassir .. it was all just a big misunderstanding.
The Japs meant to destroy the US Fleet ..and take what they wanted.
They just had no idea we'd be so pissed off about it.
Sucked to be them, eh?
-GE aka Frank
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Two wrongs never make a right.
I agree the dropping of the atomic bombs saved uniformed military lives..... but at the cost of 300,000 civilians.
Damn shame. Tough teet.
I have yet to personally meet a WWII vet that actually fought thought or thinks dropping the bombs on Japan was a bad idea.
Considering those were the guys that would have had to bleed and die in an invasion on the Japaneese homeland. I trust their opinion more then I do anyone from today.
Secondly I am a proponent of total war. If you are going to have a war against a country. You have the war against the entire country. You make the experience of war so terrible that the country in its entirety no longer want to fight.
None of this P footing around crap that we do now.
Keeping my guys alive is far more important then keeping your guys alive. And if that means causing a city to cease to exist rather then taking it building by building. so be it.
Offer terms. Then if the terms are refused. Eliminate it
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Damn shame. Tough teet.
I have yet to personally meet a WWII vet that actually fought thought or thinks dropping the bombs on Japan was a bad idea.
Considering those were the guys that would have had to bleed and die in an invasion on the Japaneese homeland. I trust their opinion more then I do anyone from today.
Yeah I met a guy who was an Indy survivor and I know he was extremely proud that he was a part of delivering the bomb that ended the war.
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Just watched Episode 2.
WOW!!! :salute
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Just watched Episode 2.
WOW!!! :salute
Great, I haven't seen it yet and you just gave away the whole episode. :D
But really I gotta wait until tomorrow morning to watch it with my roommate.
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My one complaint so far is that they COMPLETELY ignored and omitted the efforts made by the Cactus Air Force to help hold the line. Yeah, I realize the air war isn't part of the story they're telling, but there wasn't even mention of them in Tom's voiceover in the prologue. Savo Island got a mention, so they could have at LEAST informed the audience that with naval support gone the CAF was the only thing holding back the IJAAF and IJN while the Marines held out on the ground.
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Now I can't wait... I just discovered that Comcast is putting the episodes up on On Demand to watch regardless of whether you have HBO or not.
Just watched episode 1 this afternoon, can't wait to see #2.
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This is a great series, can't wait to buy them all on DVD.
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you can watch previously aired episodes on HBO.com. :salute
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I think all these night battles saved alot of effects dollars. Havent seen a 1 Wildcat on Henderson.
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Your new name is Peaches! :D
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:O :O
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Your new name is Peaches! :D
and your is old faithful :D :D
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You want milk and sugar? :huh
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I think all these night battles saved alot of effects dollars. Havent seen a 1 Wildcat on Henderson.
They spent money somewhere because the estimated budget on it was $200 million.
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you can watch previously aired episodes on HBO.com. :salute
I don't think you can, I was just on HBO.com and all they have is a recap video for episode 2, I mean I have HBO so I can just watch it OnDemand, but I was just looking for other people who don't have it.
I said this in an earlier post, but I would have been shocked if they put the whole series out online after how much they spent to make it, I'm sure the reason episode 1 was released was to get people interested in it so they would subscribe to see the rest.
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It was a really god episode! Peaches! :rofl
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Here's the million dollar question:
Would have a demonstration of the A-bomb frightened the Japanese into surrender?
IMO, no.
I would guess that a "demonstration" of what we "could do to you" would be about as effective as asking Iran to abandon enrichment of uranium by using the word "please."
Cultural differences, again. Im not an expert on WWII Japanese thought but any "demonstration" may have actually communicated weakness on our part - emboldening them.
Good question.
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It was a really god episode! Peaches! :rofl
+1.
Had to laugh at Peaches. My nick was "Patches." (overly extensive use of gauze for foot blisters) :D
Good episode. I was surprised how little time was spent on Basilone's MoH actions. I think it may (in concert with 3 episodes for Peleliu) indicate what Hanks is trying to do; downplay what everyone knows and give attention to what they don't.
We'll see. Im enjoying it, though.
Even threw The Thin Red Line in last week whilst waiting. Easily forgotten how good that film really is.
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Is anyone else starting to get irritated with the night fighting scenes, you can't see a thing & can barely tell whats even going on, only time you can see whats happening is when a flare goes up, I don't know if their doing this on purpose to make it more real, to see it as they did, but I'm watching this show to see what really happened, and with the way the night fighting's going you can't see a thing.
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A LOT of the action on Guadalcanal was night-fighting.
And there was a VERY good reason for that that the episode COMPLETELY ignored: The Cactus Air Force would have torn up any daylight troop movements against the Marine positions when they weren't otherwise busy defending against enemy bomber raids and attacking Japanese shipping.
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So far I'm pretty impressed with some of the little details that they seem to have gotten right, like the use of Springfield rifles instead of Garands. The stringing of the barb wire at Alligator Creek, although I think in the actual battle the Japanese got caught up in it while trying to infiltrate the Marine lines which is what kicked off the battle, I'll have to go back and look it up.
Can't wait for the work day to wrap up so I can go see if they have #2 up on OnDemand.
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A LOT of the action on Guadalcanal was night-fighting.
And there was a VERY good reason for that that the episode COMPLETELY ignored: The Cactus Air Force would have torn up any daylight troop movements against the Marine positions when they weren't otherwise busy defending against enemy bomber raids and attacking Japanese shipping.
I'm not saying that they should have been fighting during the day, I'm saying they needed better lighting while filming the night scenes, I mean is it my T.V or are you guys having trouble seeing just what the hell's even going on in the night scenes?
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I'm not saying that they should have been fighting during the day, I'm saying they needed better lighting while filming the night scenes, I mean is it my T.V or are you guys having trouble seeing just what the hell's even going on in the night scenes?
It's possible that your TV isn't calibrated, but it could also be deliberate on the part of the film makers. I've read stories about how it was so dark many nights you literally couldn't see your hand in front of your face. Night engagements in the south Pacific were terrifying chaotic and brutal the film makers could be trying to convey some sense of that.
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I have been able to see everything clearly, day or night scene.
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I can see everything clearly too.
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Must be the TV then, it's my roommates and it's one of those older big 60in TV's with the screen thats made of some kinda plastic, I've been telling him we need to go get a newer HDTV.
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Sounds like an old rear projection unit. If it is and depending on how old it is you may be able to replace the lamp (light bulb) that drives the thing and bring back some of the brightness and contrast that it's probably lost over the years.
Keep in mind those lamps are typically between $300-$500 so depending on whether it's HD or not or other things that are going on it may make more sense to just bite the bullet and get a new set.
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Your new name is Peaches! :D
Peaches has been my unspoken nick-name since 8th grade :o
I need to see this episode now :D
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Must be the TV then, it's my roommates and it's one of those older big 60in TV's with the screen thats made of some kinda plastic, I've been telling him we need to go get a newer HDTV.
One of the issues with any kind of back-lit TV is handling blacks. LCD's and rear projection suffer this and I'm guessing older technology isn't as good as the current stuff.
FWIW, my 4 year old LCD seemed to do just fine.
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+1.
Had to laugh at Peaches. My nick was "Patches." (overly extensive use of gauze for foot blisters) :D
Good episode. I was surprised how little time was spent on Basilone's MoH actions. I think it may (in concert with 3 episodes for Peleliu) indicate what Hanks is trying to do; downplay what everyone knows and give attention to what they don't.
We'll see. Im enjoying it, though.
Even threw The Thin Red Line in last week whilst waiting. Easily forgotten how good that film really is.
What about "old faithful"? that was pretty funny too! this miniseries is prolly one of my favorites! my son loves it too! he always hates the way they end and can't wait for the next one.
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Did HBO remove the miniseries from their website?
I can't seem to find the link to the videos anymore. :cry
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History (and the inherent morality contained) is always written by the victors.
or by the libs.
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Did HBO remove the miniseries from their website?
I can't seem to find the link to the videos anymore. :cry
i know its on demand for my cable company, so check to see if its there for you too froggy!
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Did HBO remove the miniseries from their website?
I can't seem to find the link to the videos anymore. :cry
It was only episode 1 that was being given out free by HBO, it was to get you interested in the miniseries so you would order HBO to see the rest.
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I guess they also decided not to run it on Directv 101 as well. Darn shame.
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I guess they also decided not to run it on Directv 101 as well. Darn shame.
Yeah I knew that you would only get to see episode 1 for free, it wouldn't make any sense for them to spend $200 million to make it, then just give it all away for free.
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Yeah I had the horrible realization earlier today...
May have to give Comcast a ring and see if they have any promotions running right now. :)
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I had HBO turned on about 10 days ago and it will cost me about $24 to watch all 10 episodes. I will probably have HBO turned off after the series is over.
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I had HBO turned on about 10 days ago and it will cost me about $24 to watch all 10 episodes. I will probably have HBO turned off after the series is over.
Thats not a bad deal at all, it works out to just $2.40 an episode, plus for that time period your getting the movies they have too.
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Right now on History Channel WW2 in HD is on about Guadalcanal.
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If anyone is looking to learn a little more about the battle of Guadalcanal I recommend "Guadalcanal: The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle" by Richard B. Frank. I read is several years ago and it's pretty good, he examines the land, sea, and air components of the batter.
Looks like you can get it pretty cheap over at Abebooks.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Frank&sts=t&tn=Guadalcanal&x=0&y=0 (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Frank&sts=t&tn=Guadalcanal&x=0&y=0)
There's also "Touched with Fire: The Land War in the South Pacific " by Eric Bergerud which examines the challenges and nature of the land war in New Guinea and the Solomons (if memory serves there more in there on New Guinea but a lot of the experiences were shared).
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Bergerud&sts=t&tn=Touched+with+Fire&x=0&y=0 (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Bergerud&sts=t&tn=Touched+with+Fire&x=0&y=0)
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I'm not saying that they should have been fighting during the day, I'm saying they needed better lighting while filming the night scenes, I mean is it my T.V or are you guys having trouble seeing just what the hell's even going on in the night scenes?
I haven't had a problem seeing the night fighting but I've been watching the episodes at night with the lights turned off...try adjusting your contrast a bit.
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Same as gyrene, I turned the lights off and saw it just fine
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At the risk of being bombarded with harassment here. I googled for the episode and found it the day after. Megavideo or something like that. Watched it on my computer worked great.
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At the risk of being bombarded with harassment here. I googled for the episode and found it the day after. Megavideo or something like that. Watched it on my computer worked great.
Yeah your gonna be able to find it on torrent sites, and pirated copies of it, it's just your not gonna find any legitimate copies released by HBO.
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I'm looking forward to watching 'The Pacific' the same way as I did 'Band of Brothers' - on DVD, all the way through without interruption. I'll give my opinion then.
I noticed this comment early on in the thread: "I dont recall any movie/series/show about the PTO wherein any single Japanese soldier, airman or seaman was ever perceived as anything less than a machine." I presume you meant 'else than'? Well, I've seen Japanese soldiers and airmen portrayed as very human indeed. The first was the laconic guard in 'A Town Like Alice', who started out fierce and remote and ended up carrying sick children before collapsing ill himself; the scene where he died weeping over the tattered photo of his wife and children held out to him by Jean Paget (Virginia McKenna) is unforgettable. Likewise, that masterpiece 'Merry Christmas, Mister Lawrence', which turned all the stereotypes on their heads and showed the complexity of the characters behind the masks on both sides. And the frustrated 'kamikaze kid' in 'Empire of the Sun' was certainly no 'machine'. Neither were many of the characters in 'Letters from Iwo Jima'.
Born in 1953, I spent several years of my childhood in Singapore, where I learnt about the Japanese occupation from people who'd been through it. World War Two history loomed large in those days. I remember playing 'English versus Jerries' in the school playground back in England - and that nobody else seemed to want to play 'versus Japanese'. Perhaps that was because quite a few of my playmates were the children of men who'd suffered in POW hell-camps like Changi and the Kwai, and I know now that there was a powerful racist element too, who saw all Japanese as 'slant-eyed monsters', whereas 'the Germans were quite like us really'.
No, we're all just people and we all care, fight, cry and make love much the same - and kick the hell out of each other when we lose reason and resort to violence as a poor substitute for good sense. Which that fine officer Richard Winters understood, when he promised to live the rest of his life in peace if he survived D-Day and the day after.
:salute
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Yeah your gonna be able to find it on torrent sites, and pirated copies of it, it's just your not gonna find any legitimate copies released by HBO.
I said that 3 pages ago...but just because the first episode was available from HBO for a week people wanted to believe otherwise. :lol
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I said that 3 pages ago...but just because the first episode was available from HBO for a week people wanted to believe otherwise. :lol
Yeah I mentioned it a couple pages ago as well, a couple of times too actually.
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Well, all you who were complaining about "character development" sure got some last night. :huh
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Yeah, last night's episode was a bit boring...except for the Greek girl... :D
Can't wait to see what kind of trouble Basilone gets into when he gets back to the states. Should be a good mix of action and character stories in the next episode.
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Well it's official, this is a fictional story with real names. I will now question everything I see for the remaining 7 episodes. I had been suspicous about things for the first two, but last night I went and dug up my 30 yr + copy of Lecke's book.
I had read "Helmet for My Pillow" by Robert Lecke. It has stuck in my mind because in Junior High when I did read it the first time, I was shocked at the behaviour of the Marines in the book. From AWOL, to some purely sick things they did to the Japanese bodies it was completely against the Hollywood depiction of our troops and any other book I had read to that point. Also the people in the book are always referred to by nicknames, never their real name. All in all several things which at the time I thought "odd".
Darn near everything shown last night after they got to the Stadium and left AWOL was fiction. There was no Greek Girl. There were three girls in his time in Australia, the first one he hooked up with, and when he got back to her place she just had a bed in a room and wouldn't do anything until she got a ring on her finger (amongst other things). She thought all Americans were millionaires.. he left in disgust (his words).
The second was a girl, bar maid, one of his buddies was actually seeing. She and he would take walks in the park together and talk.
The third was named Shelia (what else) and he met her on a tram, but she fell into his lap and he wouldn't let her up. They dated (polite word) until she had to go to Tasmania, and then she told him she was married. She showed back up for a single evening months later, then disappeared again.
When he got arrested for pointing the gun at the officer... he and Chuckles (I think that was the guy) had went AWOL to avoid marching in parade. They then stood along the road yelling at the Yanks as they marched by whilst consuming large quantities of beer, a common theme in the book. They faded into the crowd when their buddies showed up and watched them march by from the back. Chuckles had guard duty that night, so he returned to duty, while Lecke remained out. When Lecke showed back up he had brought more beer for Chuckles. After awhile Chuckles excused himself and left Lecke with the gunbelt. The Lt walked up, Lecke pointed the gun at him, screamed about him being a cigar thief and the Lt made a break for it. He returned minutes later with a Cpl and Sgt who snuck up on Lecke and subdued him while the Lt talked to him. Then Chuckles showed back up. It wasn't his "loss" of the Greek Girl which caused this incident.
All in all this is quite sad that they have taken two famous books Lecke's and Sledges and only used them for an outline and characters. Nothing in this can be assumed to be a real depiction of what the people in the books and series saw and experienced.
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Nothing in this can be assumed to be a real depiction of what the people in the books and series saw and experienced.
Of course not Fencer...that would be too much for the civilians to handle...much like your reaction when you read that book for the first time...nobody living now wants to see the "real truth" enacted in a highly publicized series...simple men put into extreme circumstances do extreme things. They did the same thing in Band of Brothers.
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It is unfair, but perhaps inevitable, that it is compared to "Band of Brothers". In BoB, they had the advantage of the training episodes first to establish and build characters. Pacific didn't allow for that.
Further, while Pacific, IMO, briefly addressed how touch and go Guadalcanal really was, it really did nothing to expand on how it was won. Just boom - scene - and the battle was won.
And last night's episode in Australia just seems oddly out of place in a series of this nature. It should have been called "Everyone Goes To Australia And Gets Laid".
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I understand and know of the history about the happenings when the US was in Australia for some R/R, but seriously, last nights episode went way above what was needed to know about it. The entire show was about it. I thought it was rather distasteful to spend so much time on it.
However I understand that they are telling a story of this man and what he experienced during his time there.
So far I think they have cut corners on some actual events and fluffed others, like some of the battles were shortened to a pathetic level, yet spent an entire show about their liberty during R/R. :confused:
If this trend continues with this film, I think they will fall short of the success that BoB had. IMO
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Tom Hanks & Speilberg pretty clearly said this wasn't a historical review. They said the episodes were about trying to immerse you in the characters experience. Said all of this in the endless commercials for it running on HBO.
It's entertainment, not history guys, don't get too wrapped up in the details.
I was personally expecting more. I read "Helmet for my Pillow" a few days before the first episode. I expected quite a bit more detail... didn't get any of it. Then, I saw the interviews with the creators. Made a lot more sense that things on the show weren't going to jive with the book accounts.
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It should have been called "Everyone Goes To Australia And Gets Laid".
Well, that's basically what happened during the "Battle of Melbourne". That period in the 1st MarDiv's WWII history is renown for some pretty epic boozing and whoring. You gotta consider that these guys were young and had just come off the Canal. They were the epitome of living and loving fast, something that's been happening since the first organized army in antiquity.
Taking poetic license with the source material doesn't trivialize the series, especially when it comes to staying "true" to Leckie's sea stories about libbo in Australia. To be honest, it was my least favorite part of his book because I thought it detracted from his overall story. Regardless, this past episode was a bit superfluous, but in the end, its important to show what these guys did during their port call. Libbo in general, can get a little whacky from time to time.
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I got a kick out of it. Especially the MPs taking revenge on the wasted Marines the next morning with the loudspeakers, one soldier passing out falt on his face while in formation, and the Lt.--also totally blitzed--dismissing the company.
And while the events may not have gone down for the characters in the episode EXACTLY as it did in real life, what's important is that it captured the ESSENCE of what happened.
Well, that's basically what happened during the "Battle of Melbourne". That period in the 1st MarDiv's WWII history is renown for some pretty epic boozing and whoring.
That's the really important thing: that the series is at least faithful to the general idea of what these men went through. And part of that is getting @$%&-faced and and shagging half of Melbourne their first trip back to civilization after spending about 6 months in absolute hell (however bloodier the combat got later in the war, I've always gotten the impression from the books that--excluding the POW camps, fo course--no place in the Pacific compared to the sheer misery of just BEING on Guadalcanal).
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You all realize that each episode is not directed by the same person, or produced.
Todd
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Being a Melbourne boy myself I am glad they at least filmed it there. Rather than some other city trying to look like Melbourne.