Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: uptown on April 08, 2010, 11:25:00 AM
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Let's have a general discussion on iffen we should have it in the game. Personally, I think it's a awesome idea. War winners could resupply from CV by other means then a LVT. And the furballers would have something to shoot at. It's a win/win situation.
There's no doubt that the PBY played a huge role in the Pacific. Carrier task groups and PBYs goes hand in hand and they deserve a place at the table once and for all. Honor this fine Allied bird and all that flew her, by letting your voice be heard by the powers to be.
All I want out of the deal is a skin maker to make a skin with my name on it. :uhoh
P.S. I wonder how many lives were saved by her service. I suspect a few ....
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Let's have a general discussion on iffen we should have it in the game. Personally, I think it's a awesome idea. War winners could resupply from CV by other means then a LVT.
I'm no history expert... PBY's flew off carriers?
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they will if i get the wheel. :lol but no maybe they could spawn like a PT boat?
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I'm no history expert... PBY's flew off carriers?
No, PBY's never flew off carriers to my knowledge. Unfortunately I also don't see how HTC could be consistent and allow them to spawn wet from the CV like a LVT. PBY's were land based aircraft, it's really unfortunate that they would be so difficult to work a role for them into MA-gameplay because I love the PBY, I think it's just a gorgeous aircraft.
From what I can gather it's primary roles were anti-submarine, mine laying, search & rescue, recon, and night operations. None of which really exist in the current MA.
However Wikipedia does list a respectable bomb load for a plane that flew before the war started (4000lbs, assuming it's an accurate figure) and it would be nice to have for events and scenario's. One idea that came up in a thread awhile back was that it could possible resupply CV groups, while not it's historical role it was kind of a novel idea that I liked. It could also potentially be another torpedo bomber. It wasn't designed for that role however a torpedo attack was attempted by a PBY during the Guadalcanal campaign, not sure whether that would qualify as a field mod or not though.
All in all even if it was just a so-so light/medium bomber I'd love to see it in game and would fly it from time to time just like I do with the B-25.
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Have to add a seaplane tender too I guess
So pick one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Langley_(CV-1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Curtiss_(AV-4)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Currituck_(AV-7)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tangier_(AV-8) (Interesting history by the way)
Not sure how it would work since I believe both seaplane and vessel had to be stopped for resupply.
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I'm all for the PBY if empty beer bottles are one of the ordnance package options.
ack-ack
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I'm all for the PBY if empty beer bottles are one of the ordnance package options.
ack-ack
I'll be tossing them out as I land on the CV. :cheers:
Soulyss has a good point that they were land based. That's the main problem. History. I wish i could figure out a way to make it work, but man that's a tough one. Maybe they could only take off from ports? Follow to CV out and land at sea? You'd have a flying resupply right there on the CV. Rearm, rinse, repeat. Perk it, as it is a badarse bird. It can do alot of things. They had .50s at the waist i believe? Some did some didn't. We need something to burn buff pts anyway. Ar234s are cool, but give me a PBY. :salute
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With the paucity of some plane sets I just can't see the justification in adding a gimmicky US aircraft at this time. If you want to argue for something like the H8K2 which would help one of those under-represented plane sets, sure, but a PBY seems like a bad idea right now.
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I've always liked the idea of PBYs in game, I see them as having 2-3 purposes:
1) Carrier resupply. I think it would add more depth to CV battles if there was a line of resupply coming in for both sides to consider as well. More than likely this would require some tweaking so people wouldn't just be flying C47s out there (slightly faster right?). On a bit of a side note, maybe alter the damage to a carrier to allow ords to be destroyed in some manner.
2) Recon. Someone came up with this idea and I found it really interesting. The ability for PBYs to mark positions and directions of enemy carriers for a pre-determined amount of time. So when someone flies over an enemy carrier, that location and direction is visible to friendlies for 5-10 minutes (or even just while the PBY is within a certain range, encouraging the PBY to circle to keep the location visible). Other planes would be faster but a marking on the map would be much more accurate and effective (IMO).
3) Ords, maybe. This would be something up for discussion, could outfit the PBY with small ord load, but wouldn't be a necessity (until we get subs!).
PBYs could launch in a way similar to PTs boats off of coastal bases, although probably would have to have a separate launch point for the PBY by itself. The downside is that this requires a lot of little changes (how CVs work, new supplies, the recon thing, the launching) for one plane. IMO the PBY would be used enough to justify the changes, but I'm not in charge of those decisions.
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With the paucity of some plane sets I just can't see the justification in adding a gimmicky US aircraft at this time. If you want to argue for something like the H8K2 which would help one of those under-represented plane sets, sure, but a PBY seems like a bad idea right now.
Karnak, you certainly know alot about the history on this stuff then I do. And yes PBYs could even be "gimmicky" <cringes>, but isn't that what online gaming is? I'm just a fan of the PBY, one saved my grandpa, I'd like to have it in the game and fly it. :salute
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from what i read it doesnt look the PBY does anything interesting. no ords or main gun? what would be the point in having it again?
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We had a PBY buzzing around Wellington a couple of weeks ago. Seriously, the WW1 planeset would have no difficulty running a cruising PBY down. Most kills would involve a collision because the PBY would have an ENY similar to the ground due to it's relative immobility.
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Reading a little more it looks like the PBY wasn't used very extensively for supply transport, which would make carrier resupply a bit of a stretch, unless someone can show me some information that they were used more for that.
Rescue operations is also a consideration if HTC ever decided to implement that change, that discussion is in multiple threads across these boards.
Also it should be noted that the PBY-5A (which I believe was also the most widely produce variant) had retractable gear allowing for amphibious operation.
Still would like to see it, but realistically I don't expect it.
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yeah there goes that idea. can we talk DUKs now :lol
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from what i read it doesnt look the PBY does anything interesting. no ords or main gun? what would be the point in having it again?
Not correct bombs depth charges torpedo's it had guns for self defence & that is just the stuff I know it used.
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from what i read it doesnt look the PBY does anything interesting. no ords or main gun? what would be the point in having it again?
Who said it didn't carry any ordnance or guns? You should do a little reading about the PBY before making the claim of no ordnance or guns.
PBY's were used in both the anti-shipping and night time interdiction/harassment raids. The Blackcats (the units famous for their night time interdiction and anti-shipping missions) routinely carried bombs in wing mounted racks. In addition, small anti-personal bombs were stowed in the belly of the PBY and would be rolled out by the crew to drop the bombs. Blackcats would also drop recovered shrapnel and empty beer bottles during their harrasment raids.
Blackcat with bombs on wing mounts
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/midway.gif)
In case you were gonna claim that the Blackcats were special...here is a regular PBY Catalina being fitted with bombs during the Battle of Midway.
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/bombload.gif)
No main guns?
Blackcat PBY with 4 forward mounted .50s for strafing.
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/quadguns.gif)
Blackcat with 20mm cannons
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/blackcat/cannons.gif)
ack-ack
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those could carry 2 torpedoes, enough to sink the cv in game.
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those could carry 2 torpedoes, enough to sink the cv in game.
:banana: Well done :banana:
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If you need some more info look at my post: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285115.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,285115.0.html)
It talks about an Anphibious version of the Catalina.
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PBY's strength was it could fly some 16 hours at 200-ish mph.....not major strength in here. Other than that my Dad flew em in Philippines, I'm not real excited about this umteenth PBY thread
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I think jayhawk and the other guy have some good ideas for the pby. I think it would help the gameplay be more dynamic by making cv's last longer. Some of these maps play like groundhog day. I understand the "gamey" argument about cv resupply and I agree to a point. But tell me what's not gamey about a few guys neutering every bish battlegroup by killing the dd's and ca's while leaving the cv up? I salute the hours/effort it must have taken to do that;however, I believe that the pby could add something to the game that would benefit all while maintaining as close as possible realism (cvresupplybeing all that I belive would be gamey).
Forgive me I've been up since 0400.
Animal
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From what I've been reading tonight, the PBY could carry 4000lbs of ord. Bombs, depth charges and torpedoes. Forward guns as well as waist guns. The Black Cats alone sank over 112,000 tons of shipping.
Yes, I do agree now that the resupply thing is a bit far fetched, but surely HTC can find something for her to do. The PBY is too important not to be included in the plane set.
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Karnak, you certainly know alot about the history on this stuff then I do. And yes PBYs could even be "gimmicky" <cringes>, but isn't that what online gaming is? I'm just a fan of the PBY, one saved my grandpa, I'd like to have it in the game and fly it. :salute
I mean no disrespect to the great use it gave to us and our Allies in WWII by what I said. I was referring exclusively to its capabilities within the context of AH. Eventually I would like to see it, along with every aircraft that served, but right now we are missing core types from many airforces, aircraft that would provide a lot more options for AH scenario makers and in many cases be much more useful in the arenas. The sad fact is that the PBY would be a slow, underarmed, sitting duck in the context of the AH arenas.
I am glad that one of them pulled your grandfather out of the water, but I honestly think that things like the Pe-2S, G4M2, Ki-43, SM.79-II and Wellington Mk III also have a great many stories in them and would serve a larger purpose in the planeset.
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You forgot the main drawback. HiTech doesn't want them. I've brought the subject up several times over the years and got the same answer every time... NO.
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Couple of Cat shots I have.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/PBYNEW325.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Scan_170.jpg)
Looking in at where the tail would be of a Cat being restored.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/100_9766.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/100_9744.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/PBY1943.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/yww2PBY.jpg)
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You forgot the main drawback. HiTech doesn't want them. I've brought the subject up several times over the years and got the same answer every time... NO.
I wasn't aware of that. That is a bummer :(
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I've always had a natural affinity with other big bad Cats . . . ;)
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You forgot the main drawback. HiTech doesn't want them. I've brought the subject up several times over the years and got the same answer every time... NO.
why doesnt he want them?
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why doesnt he want them?
My guess is that it'd be a huge hassle and other WW2 planes should be in the plane set first. Maybe HiTech feels the PBY would take the game in a direction he doesn't want to go. Who knows.
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why doesnt he want them?
You would have to ask him. I personally think it would be a great addition. A seaplane that could carry troops, bombs, torpedoes, strafe, resupply... what's not to like?
LST's would be nice to have as well. Imagine being able to land tanks at an island base.
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Its not that hard to figure out.
Who would fly it, what would it add to the game?
Its value is that it can operate from areas without runways over increadably long stretches of ocean. Those are useless attributes in this game.
If you had to find the carrier in the game instead of dar bars showing up as soon as they launch aircraft then maybe it would be useful for that.
If pilots could be rescued from the water for some in game purpose then it might be useful for that.
Maybe if hunting the resupply barges were a meaningful facet of the game and it required long range or surface search radar to find them.
Or if finding subs meant something.
But not one of those things are true in the game, so all the cool flying boats in ww2 are just a huge waste of time for HT and co that could be spent on an He177 or an Il10 or a panther tank or a Bearcat or tiger cat.
You know, things that would get alot of use in the game.
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I hate to say it, but I think you and Karnak are right. I personally think it'd be great to have, but AcesHigh just ain't ready for this bird right now. Maybe several years down the road, but not now.
Next time I'll think this though better before I start a topic on it. But I am glad I did, for it did raise some interesting points that I hadn't thought of before. :salute
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Its not that hard to figure out.
Who would fly it, what would it add to the game?
Its value is that it can operate from areas without runways over increadably long stretches of ocean. Those are useless attributes in this game.
If you had to find the carrier in the game instead of dar bars showing up as soon as they launch aircraft then maybe it would be useful for that.
If pilots could be rescued from the water for some in game purpose then it might be useful for that.
Maybe if hunting the resupply barges were a meaningful facet of the game and it required long range or surface search radar to find them.
Or if finding subs meant something.
But not one of those things are true in the game, so all the cool flying boats in ww2 are just a huge waste of time for HT and co that could be spent on an He177 or an Il10 or a panther tank or a Bearcat or tiger cat.
You know, things that would get alot of use in the game.
what about using it as the ultimate CV Sinker
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what about using it as the ultimate CV Sinker
It doesn't carry enough ords to sink a CV. (8000 lbs. If I am correct.)
The PBY is also to slow, and lightly armored and would most likely be absolutely destroyed by ack and 5 inchers.
So yeah, you can try. :devil
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It doesn't carry enough ords to sink a CV. (8000 lbs. If I am correct.)
The PBY is also to slow, and lightly armored and would most likely be absolutely destroyed by ack and 5 inchers.
So yeah, you can try. :devil
what does it take to sink a cv with american torps ingame
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what does it take to sink a cv with american torps ingame
For the vast majority of players torpedoes are a very poor tool for sinking things in AH.
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what does it take to sink a cv with american torps ingame
Just because the ordinance comes in a different package, doesn't mean it takes any less of it.
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what does it take to sink a cv with american torps ingame
Instead of answering this, I'm going to send you to http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/ (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/), the information is there.
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why doesnt he want them?
He would need to model water as... water first. I bet that would be easy. :rolleyes:
wrongway
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Just because the ordinance comes in a different package, doesn't mean it takes any less of it.
but the pby holds more american torps than any other plane
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He would need to model water as... water first. I bet that would be easy. :rolleyes:
wrongway
there are already pt boats playable, so whats your point?
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What about the PB2Y Coronado? It can carry 12,000 pounds of bombs, had 4 1,200 hp engines, lots of guns and a few turrets for them, water takeoff/landing (duh) and could carry a helluva' 'lotta troops. Scary, but maybe good... :devil
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there are already pt boats playable, so whats your point?
He's saying that touching water is a no-no for ALL planes in here (obviously) and that it would be a nightmarish re-code to change that, for a plane which lotsa folks would fly at first, then discard
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well water behaves like land for planes. maybe code the plane like a boat that can fly once a certain speed is reached
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:lol flying PT boats. Anyone remember that?
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:lol flying PT boats. Anyone remember that?
yeah same programming idea