Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Clone155 on May 09, 2010, 05:26:57 PM

Title: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Clone155 on May 09, 2010, 05:26:57 PM
I went AFK for about 10 minutes, and when I come back I find I died, so I saved the film to see what killed me. Looking at the film, I find a P-51D strafe my M4 and take out my turret? Is this even possible?
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: bravoa8 on May 09, 2010, 05:30:23 PM
I didn't think you could do it with .50s against a sherman. :headscratch:
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: beau32 on May 09, 2010, 05:39:52 PM
Rocket or Bomb?
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Yossarian on May 09, 2010, 06:02:58 PM
I went AFK for about 10 minutes, and when I come back I find I died, so I saved the film to see what killed me. Looking at the film, I find a P-51D strafe my M4 and take out my turret? Is this even possible?

It sure shouldn't be.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Lusche on May 09, 2010, 06:04:29 PM
Looking at the film, I find a P-51D strafe my M4 and take out my turret?

I think we would like to see that film too. :)
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: uptown on May 09, 2010, 06:09:14 PM
I don't believe a P51 can do that with .50 cals alone.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: TW9 on May 09, 2010, 06:33:02 PM
.50 cal itself is meant for light armor. I don't see why 4-6 of them, with the added energy of being mounted on a vehicle diving at approx 400mph would NOT be capable of damaging an exposed barrel rendering it useless.

also i think the armor was designed for low angle shots from other tanks. coming in high angle it may have only had an inch worth of armor.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: lyric1 on May 09, 2010, 06:58:05 PM
If you could put a concentrated stream in the top hatch I think that would be possible.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: AWwrgwy on May 09, 2010, 09:41:35 PM
Obviously Mustangs and Thunderbolts strafing armor in WW2 were just waisting their time and risking their lives for nothing.


wrongway
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Clone155 on May 09, 2010, 09:46:27 PM
He did not have any bombs or rockets, but he did come in from a high angle. I'll try and figure out how to post the vid.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: redman555 on May 09, 2010, 10:37:01 PM
My Little Pony-o-Death


-BigBOBCH
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: oakranger on May 09, 2010, 10:47:46 PM
There is no way a P-51 can kill you with just .50 cals.  i put all eight of my .50 cals from a P-47 on the M4 and no results.  I bet he kill you with a bomb or rockets.   
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Obie303 on May 09, 2010, 10:52:37 PM
Clone posted a copy of the film in the help section.  He was having a problem so he went there for help.  I checked it out and he's right.  It was just a pony with .50 cal rounds.  No bombs or rockets were loaded on the pony.  Very strange indeed.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Scherf on May 09, 2010, 10:59:06 PM
Dude prolly bounced the rounds off the road, up into the belly of the tank then through into the turret.


Happened alla time IRL. I heard it on the intardnets.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Clone155 on May 09, 2010, 11:13:38 PM
Here is the video. Said pony does the deed near the end.

http://www.mediafire.com/?enmddzn2zdc
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: oakranger on May 09, 2010, 11:21:19 PM
Here is the video. Said pony does the deed near the end.

http://www.mediafire.com/?enmddzn2zdc

At the time you start in the tank, where you engage with another tank or scraf by other AC? 
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Clone155 on May 09, 2010, 11:24:54 PM
At the time you start in the tank, where you engage with another tank or scraf by other AC?  

Aha! I found the culprit! A panzer did indeed sniff me out and shot me. Coincidentally it looked like the P-51 did it but on careful inspection the pony missed.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: froger on May 10, 2010, 12:05:11 AM
we just went over this about the wurb/osti.

AK AK says it can be done but I'M not sure about a tank.

panzer for sure but i don't know about a sherm.



froger
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: oakranger on May 10, 2010, 12:54:50 AM
we just went over this about the wurb/osti.

AK AK says it can be done but I'M not sure about a tank.

panzer for sure but i don't know about a sherm.



froger

It can not be done on a tank unless you are in a IL2 or B-25 armed with 75mm.  any other AC can not kill a tank alone with a 30mm (it may but not sure), 20mm, .50 cal or smaller cal. 
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: phatzo on May 10, 2010, 01:17:28 AM
It can not be done on a tank unless you are in a IL2 or B-25 armed with 75mm.  any other AC can not kill a tank alone with a 30mm (it may but not sure), 20mm, .50 cal or smaller cal. 
I have killed a panzer with repetitive annoying in a 110 with 20 and 30 mm cannons
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Karnak on May 10, 2010, 02:12:10 AM
It can not be done on a tank unless you are in a IL2 or B-25 armed with 75mm.  any other AC can not kill a tank alone with a 30mm (it may but not sure), 20mm, .50 cal or smaller cal. 

Hurri IID's 40mm cannons seem to have a shot....
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Krusty on May 10, 2010, 02:48:10 AM
I have killed a panzer with repetitive annoying in a 110 with 20 and 30 mm cannons


You've got the kill, but did you kill it?

There was a long-standing (years and years) issue with treads soaking up tons of damage points and giving kills to 110s that strafed everything that moved. Most were kill stealing.

Sometimes you can disable the treads and the guy towers giving you a kill, but you never penetrated the armor shell.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: TW9 on May 10, 2010, 08:02:20 AM
u guys overrate the armor. what made the armor so tough was the fact it was slanted at an angle thus making it thicker. coming in from above the armor would be much thinner and im sure a well placed .50 could penetrate it. Also the barrels themselves were mostly unarmored. would say about 80 to 90 % of it was exposed. a gunner would have to be suicidal to shoot with a barrel that has even the slightest of damage.

so as for a .50 being capable of taking out a turret (in game the turret is the main gun, barrel, or tube) imo it is possible and should be.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Lusche on May 10, 2010, 08:11:55 AM
I have killed a panzer with repetitive annoying in a 110 with 20 and 30 mm cannons

The 110G is indeed the only non-tankbuster (Il-2, HurriD, B25H) that has genuinely killed me (not just getting the kill credit) in a tank by strafing alone.




You've got the kill, but did you kill it?

There was a long-standing (years and years) issue with treads soaking up tons of damage points and giving kills to 110s that strafed everything that moved. Most were kill stealing.

Sometimes you can disable the treads and the guy towers giving you a kill, but you never penetrated the armor shell.

This issue has been largely resolved with one of the recent updates.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: druski85 on May 10, 2010, 08:36:52 AM
The 110G is indeed the only non-tankbuster (Il-2, HurriD, B25H) that has genuinely killed me (not just getting the kill credit) in a tank by strafing alone.


I want to say I've fragged a few tanks with a Yak - T as well in the past, but I don't recall if those were simply bail outs.  I believe I saw a couple legitimate pops.  Course' you could make the argument that the Yak T is a tank buster...
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: oakranger on May 10, 2010, 09:29:40 AM
Hurri IID's 40mm cannons seem to have a shot....

Oh yea, that 40 mm in the hurri will do the job.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Lusche on May 10, 2010, 09:48:44 AM
I want to say I've fragged a few tanks with a Yak - T as well in the past, but I don't recall if those were simply bail outs.  I believe I saw a couple legitimate pops.  Course' you could make the argument that the Yak T is a tank buster...

The Yak 9t is no tankbuster at all.

It may sport the same NS-37 cannon as the Il-2, but apparently it carries different ammunition.

I tested it extensively offline vs the stationary Tiger. The Il-2 had no problem killing it or at least disabling it's turret with 10-40 rounds. Each attack run results in a dead or disabled Tiger.

When testing the same with the Yak-9T (with ammo multiplier set to 10, giving it 320 rounds), I couldn't even scratch the Tiger with a lot more hits. Most notably was the difference in hit sprites: When flying the Il, i would see a lot of hit splashes on top deck armor, whereas with the Yak the rounds would often just ricochet when striking the top armor at the similar angles and distances. Unless striking the tracks, I rarely saw any splashes at all.

Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: druski85 on May 10, 2010, 10:53:32 AM
The Yak 9t is no tankbuster at all.

It may sport the same NS-37 cannon as the Il-2, but apparently it carries different ammunition.

I tested it extensively offline vs the stationary Tiger. The Il-2 had no problem killing it or at least disabling it's turret with 10-40 rounds. Each attack run results in a dead or disabled Tiger.

Yea, to be honest I was thinking of examples attacking panzers and t-34s.  I know for a fact I've smoked turrets on both with the Yak-T.  Tigers I don't recall ever doing so.  Again, I don't recall if I was able to actually get a clean kill on the panzers/t-34s, or if they bailed due to an out turret.  Either way, I'm positive I have turreted both. (no friendlies around, no ack up)
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 10, 2010, 12:40:36 PM
we just went over this about the wurb/osti.

AK AK says it can be done but I'M not sure about a tank.

panzer for sure but i don't know about a sherm.



froger

.50 cals will not take out a tank turret but it will easily take out the turret on either of the flak panzies.

ack-ack
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Yeager on May 10, 2010, 01:20:21 PM
I dont know.....one thousand hits of .50 BMG rounds from above might disable a Sherman...wouldnt destroy it without a damned luck few rounds but it would surely cause some form of trouble.  In real world application.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: RedTop on May 11, 2010, 07:13:30 PM
Steve can do it....just watch.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfigpjOTZvs
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: OOZ662 on May 11, 2010, 07:29:04 PM
I dont know.....one thousand hits of .50 BMG rounds from above might disable a Sherman...wouldnt destroy it without a damned luck few rounds but it would surely cause some form of trouble.  In real world application.

Yep. Unfortunately, Aces High uses an all-or-naught penetration scheme; you can't bore a tiny hole through armor with a few thousand small-arms rounds like you could in real life. A tank with a few thousand rounds bounced off it is the same as one that's just spawned.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: kamori on May 11, 2010, 07:41:48 PM
I have shot 1/2" steel plate w/ my 30-06 and gone through it. So can a .50cal go through ? Multiple hits in same area..I dont see why not..

KAM
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: palef on May 11, 2010, 08:18:52 PM
I've killed a Panzer IV with a Yak 9T.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: druski85 on May 11, 2010, 08:21:43 PM
I've killed a Panzer IV with a Yak 9T.

Ah good, I'm not crazy then  :aok
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Masherbrum on May 11, 2010, 09:29:42 PM
If you could put a concentrated stream in the top hatch I think that would be possible.

50's taking out tracks?   Absolutely.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Yeager on May 11, 2010, 11:44:40 PM
Yep. Unfortunately, Aces High uses an all-or-naught penetration scheme; you can't bore a tiny hole through armor with a few thousand small-arms rounds like you could in real life. A tank with a few thousand rounds bounced off it is the same as one that's just spawned.
I thought the AH damage model was damage accumulative?
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: oakranger on May 11, 2010, 11:45:36 PM
Steve can do it....just watch.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfigpjOTZvs

Yea, it is hard to say if that P-51's .50 cal, rockets or bomb did that or that colt .45.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: EskimoJoe on May 12, 2010, 12:29:35 AM
I've killed a Panzer IV with a Yak 9T.

9T uses the same NS-37 as the IL-2 does, with one difference, IL-2 has a second one  :)
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: OOZ662 on May 12, 2010, 01:22:26 AM
I thought the AH damage model was damage accumulative?

It is when damage actually occurs. Each round that pierces does deal "stacking" damage to the internals of the tank (generally the crew), but armor is not yet a damage-able component in the game.

9T uses the same NS-37 as the IL-2 does, with one difference, IL-2 has a second one  :)

And the 9T fires exclusively HE ammunition.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: froger on May 12, 2010, 01:49:19 AM
.50 cals will not take out a tank turret but it will easily take out the turret on either of the flak panzies.

ack-ack

This i seem to know all to well  :cry

3 or 4 well placed rounds from the hurri d2 or the il2 wil send even a tiger to the tower real quick but most of us are not good at leveling a clean shot in a dive.

personaly i think i try real hard and when i am successful it is just luck.


froger
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: froger on May 12, 2010, 01:53:08 AM
9T uses the same NS-37 as the IL-2 does, with one difference, IL-2 has a second one  :)


This proves that more is always beter  :aok




froger
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Lusche on May 12, 2010, 06:16:34 AM
9T uses the same NS-37 as the IL-2 does, with one difference, IL-2 has a second one  :)


One difference? See my post above. Please repeat my tests and post the results if they are different from mine.

Il2 15-30 hits: Tiger gone, or smoking. Each time, each run.
Yak 60-90 hits: Tiger not scratched, even when doing attack after attack...
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: palef on May 12, 2010, 07:44:08 PM
I'm pretty sure I filmed the Panzer death. I will look.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Ramon on May 12, 2010, 09:25:40 PM
Load up that Il-2 and set your convergence to 200.  Come in at a high angle, preferably to the rear.  Start firing when you cross about 300 and pull out at 200.  You will bust em up.  Like clubbing baby seals!
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: E25280 on May 12, 2010, 09:48:51 PM

One difference? See my post above. Please repeat my tests and post the results if they are different from mine.

Il2 15-30 hits: Tiger gone, or smoking. Each time, each run.
Yak 60-90 hits: Tiger not scratched, even when doing attack after attack...
Never was able to kill a Tiger, but panzers are definitely killable with a yak's 37mm (and therefore by extension so should Wirbys and Osties).

It was one of the topics in the following thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,222894.30.html

I believe the old films are still there.

Of course, it would still be a very poor substitute for an IL-2, B-25H or Hurri IID.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: OOZ662 on May 12, 2010, 09:50:38 PM
Yes, but it's still an HE round. The B25's pumpkin chucker is similar.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: E25280 on May 12, 2010, 10:35:16 PM
Yes, but it's still an HE round. The B25's pumpkin chucker is similar.
Umm . . . B-25H can one-shot a Tiger.  Yak can't do it.  I wouldn't call them similar.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: OOZ662 on May 12, 2010, 10:43:46 PM
I would, because they both use HE shells, yet are still pseudo-tankbusters.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: OOZ662 on May 12, 2010, 10:45:11 PM
TRIPLE POST, YESSSSS
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: OOZ662 on May 12, 2010, 10:47:16 PM
TRIPLE POST, YESSSSS
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Crash Orange on May 13, 2010, 02:21:02 AM
I have shot 1/2" steel plate w/ my 30-06 and gone through it. So can a .50cal go through ? Multiple hits in same area..I dont see why not..

Mild steel plate and armor are very different things - even a 5.56 will go right through 1/4" mild steel plate. .50 BMG will shoot through a manhole cover with plain jane ball ammo, but even with AP it really isn't meant for tank armor. And tanks are more vulnerable from the top, but you're not going to be strafing at a 90 degree angle straight down. Hitting the barrel might work, but it would be a pretty small target and you'd have to hit it dead center. I would think your best bet would be to hit something vulnerable like air intakes or exhausts and maybe even start an engine fire. That, or hitting any crew who happened to be exposed or outside the tank.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: 2bighorn on May 13, 2010, 07:32:49 PM
you can't bore a tiny hole through armor with a few thousand small-arms rounds like you could in real life.

:huh

And a tiny hole disables tank how? 

Really, in air to air combat planes get full of holes and still flying, yet tank should just turn on its back and die?


Really folks, get some sense.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Larry on May 13, 2010, 08:14:03 PM

One difference? See my post above. Please repeat my tests and post the results if they are different from mine.

Il2 15-30 hits: Tiger gone, or smoking. Each time, each run.
Yak 60-90 hits: Tiger not scratched, even when doing attack after attack...


While it may not be as uber as the IL2 it can still kill tanks lusche. Iv disabled (turreted or killed engine) and killed my share of panzers with the YakT back in the day.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: lyric1 on May 13, 2010, 09:47:05 PM
I too have killed panzer's with the Yak-9t have not tried in a while not sure if it still can with all the new updates?
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: OOZ662 on May 13, 2010, 10:31:04 PM
:huh

And a tiny hole disables tank how? 

Really, in air to air combat planes get full of holes and still flying, yet tank should just turn on its back and die?


Really folks, get some sense.

You've never seen an infantry-carried anti-tank rifle, have you?

Besides, I never said a tiny hole would disable the tank. I was saying you can't bore holes in Aces High armor. Go fire at the front plate of a Tiger at a single point which induces a ricochet in an M8 for a few days and see if you get through. :)
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: phatzo on May 14, 2010, 12:40:41 AM

You've got the kill, but did you kill it?

There was a long-standing (years and years) issue with treads soaking up tons of damage points and giving kills to 110s that strafed everything that moved. Most were kill stealing.

Sometimes you can disable the treads and the guy towers giving you a kill, but you never penetrated the armor shell.
Only me and him there, so it has to be legit.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Bronk on May 14, 2010, 05:29:09 AM
:huh

And a tiny hole disables tank how? 

Really, in air to air combat planes get full of holes and still flying, yet tank should just turn on its back and die?


Really folks, get some sense.

Spall = tank crew smoothie
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: 2bighorn on May 14, 2010, 10:39:26 AM
You've never seen an infantry-carried anti-tank rifle, have you?

In AH? Nope, never.

Anyways, I've heard that WWII armies which had them won all the battles  ;)


Spall = tank crew smoothie

Spall by what? 50 cal AP rounds? LMAO
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: OOZ662 on May 14, 2010, 02:08:37 PM
(http://www.saynotocrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/troll.jpg)
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: Bronk on May 14, 2010, 03:59:18 PM
In AH? Nope, never.

Anyways, I've heard that WWII armies which had them won all the battles  ;)


Spall by what? 50 cal AP rounds? LMAO
If a hole is punched through there will be spall.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: 2bighorn on May 14, 2010, 04:38:14 PM
If a hole is punched through there will be spall.

There can be spall without hole. And hall can be punched without spall at all. Blah, blah... We could argue forever.

Destruction and lethality of spalling achievable with high velocity specialized projectiles is not the same as that of, lets say, 50 cal bmg, AP or not.
Besides that, currently we don't have any tank in game which is seriously vulnerable to small caliber weapons.

And before we continue, I'd really like to see any evidence (records, etc) of WWII tank crews being disabled/killed by small caliber AT weapons on regular basis(especially trough spalling). Just didn't happen that often. At least not often enough to worry about in game modeling...

Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: whipster22 on May 14, 2010, 06:40:59 PM
(http://www.saynotocrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/troll.jpg)
:lol
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: E25280 on May 14, 2010, 10:08:08 PM
And before we continue, I'd really like to see any evidence (records, etc) of WWII tank crews being disabled/killed by small caliber AT weapons on regular basis(especially trough spalling). Just didn't happen that often. At least not often enough to worry about in game modeling...

This link (http://www.iremember.ru/content/view/85/19/lang,en/) is one source describing spalling that I knew of off the top of my head.  About 4 paragraphs from the bottom, although it is a good read, so I suggest reading from the top.   :aok

Quote
I want also to add that the Sherman's armor was tough. There were cases on our T-34 when a round struck and did not penetrate. But the crew was wounded because pieces of armor flew off the inside wall and struck the crewmen in the hands and eyes. This never happened on the Sherman.
Title: Re: A pony took out my turret?
Post by: 2bighorn on May 15, 2010, 09:55:15 AM
This link (http://www.iremember.ru/content/view/85/19/lang,en/) is one source describing spalling that I knew of off the top of my head.  About 4 paragraphs from the bottom, although it is a good read, so I suggest reading from the top.   :aok

If you don't bother to read, why bother to answer?

And before we continue, I'd really like to see any evidence (records, etc) of WWII tank crews being disabled/killed by small caliber AT weapons on regular basis(especially trough spalling). Just didn't happen that often. At least not often enough to worry about in game modeling...