Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Squire on June 01, 2010, 10:48:47 PM
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Going with B-25Cs instead of B-26s. Other changes are included from any I posted previously. The RAF used large #s of B-25s with the 2nd TAF, and since we used B-26s in "Breaking Gustav", I prefer them in this setup. Worth the same # of points. Allied CiC is advised.
OOB:
Axis (Luftwaffe):
Bf 109G-14
Bf 109G-6 (min 24)
Fw 190A-5 (min 24)
Fw 190A-8 (min 24)
Fw 190F-8 (min 24)
Recon Aircraft: Ar 234 (6 per frame, no formations) *Special mission aircraft*
Allied (USAAF/RAF/RCAF):
Spitfire XVI (max 48)
Spitfire VIII (max 12)
Typhoon (max 48)
Mosquito VI
P-51B
P-47D-25 (min 24)
P-38J (min 24)
A-20G
B-25C (max 24 players, formations enabled, glass nosed bomber only)
Recon Aircraft: Spitfire FR XIV (Spitfire XIV, 12 per frame) *Special mission aircraft*
Special Rules and Ordnance Restrictions: Each a/c type must be used by a *minimum of 12 players* unless otherwise specified. The Recon Aircraft have an OPTIONAL mission ability to make a tactical reconnaissance run. The recon a/c may also be used in their regular fighter/bomber/attack roles. The Ar 234s RATOs will be disabled. The Spitfire XVI will have rockets disabled. B-25Cs have no strafer option. Axis aircraft are not permitted to go feet dry over England.
Special Missions (Optional): Recon missons are filmed (ALt-R) over a strike target at 4000 ft or less within light flak range and/or over the center area of the target after the strike is completed but within 60 min of frame start. They must rtb safely to get the points for the mission. Confirmation film to be emailed to the Admin CM.
Scoring:
Aircraft Pts
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B-25 = 20 pts
Arado 234 = 25pts
Twin Engined aircraft = 10 pts
Single Engined aircraft = 5 pts
Spitfire FR XIV = 20 pts
Landing Bonus = 5 pts
Ground Target Pts
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Gun = 0.1 pts
Ammo Bunker = 3 pts
Barracks = 3 pts
Radar = 3 pts
Vehicle Hangar = 25 pts
Fighter Hangar = 25pts
Bomber Hangar = 25 pts
Town Building = 3 pts
Factory at strategic target = 3 pts
Truck in convoy = 1 pt
Train = 2 pts
Destroyer = 50 pts
Cruiser = 100 pts
Recon mission = 50 pts per strike target
Arena Settings:
- Battle of Britain (bob09) terrain
- Fuel burn 1.2
- Icons short (3k)
- 0.5 Ack
- Fighter and Bomber warning range 42,000 (about 8 miles)
- Tower range set to 42,000 (for display only to match the above setting)
- Haze/fog full visability (17 miles)
- Radar off
- Enemy Collisions On
- Friendly collisions off
- Killshooter off
- Time: 15:00 ( 3PM ) Game Clock
- Formations: On
- Bomber calibration: Manual
- Wind: 0-2K NO WIND
2K-18K W TO E - Speed 5
18K-24K NW TO SE - Speed 10
24k+ W TO E - Speed 15
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The Allies get spit16's and the axis doesn't even get Dora's? :huh
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our XVI must be subbing for LFIX, and doras werent in service at that point.
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our XVI must be subbing for LFIX, and doras werent in service at that point.
Nor was the XVI.
If you get a not in service sub, why can't we have the K4 as a sub for the G10?
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cmon you already know the deal ... most common IX produced by far was LF, but we have the F. the closest we have to the LFIX is the XVI. the only practical difference between them is the additional reach of 2x.50 vs 4x.303.
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cmon you already know the deal ... most common IX produced by far was LF, but we have the F. the closest we have to the LFIX is the XVI. the only practical difference between them is the additional reach of 2x.50 vs 4x.303.
What I am trying to get at though is the IX competes pretty well performance wise...do you really need those 50 cals?
The Axis could really use a K4, which would be our only high alt worthy bird...since the G14 drops off a bit.
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Whoa. :confused:
This changes everything. Now I need to start my planning all over! :(
j/k
But it does change things quite a bit. Going from bombers that are able to defend themselves to bombers that are otherwise hogtied does change the thinking a bit... back to the drawing board!!! :)
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Gonna be a short night for the Allied bomber pilots. :mad:
Allies were known for elevating the strategic bomber to new and unseen levels and we get stuck with the A20 and the B25.
This is crazy!! Who is steering this ship? This guy needs to get more sources than the Time Life Books series on WWII. :furious
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If you read the right-up, you'll see that this FSO was designed around the RAF's 2nd Tactical AF and the US 9th AF, which were not strategic bomber groups. These groups saw extensive action during the period described, so you might want to rethink your last statement.
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I refuse to be accused of thinking!
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Gonna be a short night for the Allied bomber pilots. :mad:
Allies were known for elevating the strategic bomber to new and unseen levels and we get stuck with the A20 and the B25.
This is crazy!! Who is steering this ship? This guy needs to get more sources than the Time Life Books series on WWII. :furious
Remember, the scope of what is going on in the summer of 1944 is far greater than what FSO can accomplish in one mini-campaign.
Relax a bit.
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Relax??
Oh my gravy!!
The fate of all the Allied bomber pilots lives are at stake here and you want me to relax.
This could potentially be the first FSO I would rather be at work instead. :(
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Ok Bug stop being mischievous and go HO something in the AvA. Mischievous, you know, its rare you get to use that word in a sentence, I like it. ;)
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Sorry, I guess I took the bait. Was a bad day and I read it wrong, it did seem odd coming from thebug.
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:headscratch:
Why does the uberten Spit16 have a max of 48, yet the porked Spit8, in comparison to the 16, have a max of 12? Sry, this makes no sense.
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ok ... so what proportion of LFIX(XVI)s vs FVIIIs were fielded by the 2TAF and 9thAF in this campaign?
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The Spitfire VIII is a stand in for the almost identical Spitfire VII, of which there was a Wings worth in June 1944. So I included a small # of them (12). Its in the designers notes I put in at the bottom. So they are in the MINORITY, of any Spits in the setup, and I included them for some variety <gasp!>. HTC accepts skins for the VIII as a VII, the 131 Sqn skin is one such availiable in the downloads section.
The Spitfire 16 (XVI) is the same (or very close) a/c as the Spitfire LF IX (Merlin 66) of that period. It was by far the majority type, and so I decided to use it.
The Bf 109G-14, btw, did not really come out untill July 1944, but thats close enough for our purposes, as it can also stand in for some Bf 109G-6 (late model) types, ergo, I included it as the main Bf 109 in the setup. Also, it shares a very close time line with the Spitfire XVI, and in fairness if the Spit XVI is in the setup it made a lot of sense to me to have the 109G-14?
So, we can have a setup with EITHER Bf 109G-6s and Spit IXs ONLY (both of which are really 1943 a/c), or we can have a setup with the Spit XVI, AND the Bf 109G-14, ( from 1944) and maybe a few others like the VIII and the G-6 to round it out, with the other types included that you see.
Wether the Spit VIII is "porked" and umm, I beg to differ that it is?, I dont see makes any difference to the discussion in any case. If you think its porked, go and ask HTC to "fix" it I guess. ??? This isnt the Bug Reports Forum.
Regards.
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I think July is Summer...making it fine for this use...however the XVI was not put into service until October, the K4 November, and the D9 around that time too...
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Yes Warloc.
Sorry guys just poking a little fun at all the drama. :neener:
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The Spitfire VIII is a stand in for the almost identical Spitfire VII, of which there was a Wings worth in June 1944. So I included a small # of them (12). Its in the designers notes I put in at the bottom. So they are in the MINORITY, of any Spits in the setup, and I included them for some variety <gasp!>.
that was what i was hinting at :)
I cant help thinking that the XVI causes more trouble than its worth for lots of people. might be best just to delete it and replace it with a '43 LFIX (ie just add 4x.303 to the XVI we already have and make it a MW aircraft) That would cause much less whining right? :bolt:
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Wether the Spit VIII is "porked" and umm, I beg to differ that it is?, I dont see makes any difference to the discussion in any case. If you think its porked, go and ask HTC to "fix" it I guess. ??? This isnt the Bug Reports Forum.
Regards.
I said porked relative to the spit16. Just like the g14 is porked relative to the k4. Nevermind though.
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While the interest in putting in the spit8 and the spi16 is admirable, I have to point out a flaw in your reasoning.
Spit8 subs in for the spit7, only our spit8 is the exact same plane as our spit16 (LF gearing, almost identical power curves), it's just as fast, climbs just the same, etc. The Spit7 it's subbing for really has little in common, since it was a pressurized high-alt variant using the Merlin 61 engine. I believe that same engine is in our 1942 Spit F.Mk IX, which also has a higher alt gearing on the power curves. The in-game spit9 would be the better stand-in for the spit VII in reality.
As for the spit16, I totally get that you're saying it's the same as the spit LF.MkIXe, and I totally understand the reasons for putting it in, but I have to ask if you considered the GAMEPLAY balance side of things? This plane in-game is a total UFO, and despite its short legs the RAF is going to have a major bonus over the LW because of this plane. So my parting comment is your choice of spit16 fits historically, but please consider it very carefully before throwing it into a FSO setup.
Cheers :cheers:
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Would be a great time to have a 109G-10 wouldn't it? :D
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No, since the G10 showed up later than the K4 and performed worse than it.
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Spit8 subs in for the spit7, only our spit8 is the exact same plane as our spit16 (LF gearing, almost identical power curves), it's just as fast, climbs just the same, etc. The Spit7 it's subbing for really has little in common, since it was a pressurized high-alt variant using the Merlin 61 engine. I believe that same engine is in our 1942 Spit F.Mk IX, which also has a higher alt gearing on the power curves. The in-game spit9 would be the better stand-in for the spit VII in reality.
As for the spit16, I totally get that you're saying it's the same as the spit LF.MkIXe, and I totally understand the reasons for putting it in, but I have to ask if you considered the GAMEPLAY balance side of things? This plane in-game is a total UFO, and despite its short legs the RAF is going to have a major bonus over the LW because of this plane. So my parting comment is your choice of spit16 fits historically, but please consider it very carefully before throwing it into a FSO setup.
fair point. the VII and VIII were almost identical, share the same airframe, fuel load etc. the performance difference between the HFVII and our LFVIII shouldnt be too much of an issue as iirc the campaign was mainly about CAS, interdiction and med-alt buff escort so I wouldnt expect too many fights at 30k+. depends if you want to simulate the high alt performance or the range.
as for the LFIX/XVI and gameplay issues, they were very capable aircraft and the luftwaffe will just have to deal with it like they had to IRL. you could use the same argument to ban 109s from BoB events because the cannon armament is unfair on the poor .303 armed spits and hurris ... ;)
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Lol.
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fair point. the VII and VIII were almost identical, share the same airframe, fuel load etc. the performance difference between the HFVII and our LFVIII shouldnt be too much of an issue as iirc the campaign was mainly about CAS, interdiction and med-alt buff escort so I wouldnt expect too many fights at 30k+. depends if you want to simulate the high alt performance or the range.
Forgive me if I sound rude, not intending to be, but seemed to me an excuse to put spit8s into the setup for variety. They don't really match the earlier, lesser powered, higher geared spit7s in real life, as they are identical to the spit16s we have in-game. In real life only about 140 or so spit7s were made because when the spit9s came out they were able to perform just as well, and that is why you have HF.Mk IX, F.Mk IX, and LF.Mk IX, because when the task called for it the spit9s could go to alt rather than needing a specialized variant. That's why the spit7s never took off (so to speak).
as for the LFIX/XVI and gameplay issues, they were very capable aircraft and the luftwaffe will just have to deal with it like they had to IRL. you could use the same argument to ban 109s from BoB events because the cannon armament is unfair on the poor .303 armed spits and hurris ... ;)
I don't think it's a fair comparison. The spit8 and spit16 in this game can chase down almost anything (yes, even 109K4s at speed), can out-turn it all, out-climb it all, spit16 can out-roll it all, with 2x instant killer hispanos they can kill anything in a solid single burst and still have plenty of ammo to bag 6-10 more planes before landing.
You might suggest it would be like the LW flying Ki67s in the BOB, faster, better climbing, better shooting, than a "balanced setup" would have.
All I was suggesting is that these planes (notwithstanding historical reasons) ought not to be used lightly in scenarios of FSOs because they DO have a tendency to destabilize and/or tilt the balances to the side that uses them.
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Can't wait to see the tallys for this frame.
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Can't wait to see the tallys for this frame.
Anyone want to bet the Axis won the first frame??? All the crying about the Spit16 was all for naught. They didn't even factor in, did they?
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Anyone want to bet the Axis won the first frame??? All the crying about the Spit16 was all for naught. They didn't even factor in, did they?
They factored heavily at A73...G6 is no match for them at 25k
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They factored heavily at A73...G6 is no match for them at 25k
So in other words, the Spit16 didn't sway the battle and cause a short night, or a loss for the Axis? ;) They, the aircraft, didnt give the Allies any sort of advantage that the AH Spit 9 would also not have given.
I guess I could cry about having to use the B25's instead of the B26's, but what is the point? I supposed I could wine about having the use some of the Spit 16's as ground attack aircraft (gasp, their traditional role!). I suppose I complain about having to use the Typhoons as attack platforms instead of their traditional MA boom-n-zoom/HO craft, but nah, what is the point. I think many guys simply jump the gun and make mental images of the MA pick fest and automatically figure the FSO is going to be a mirror image of the MA fiasco. Hardly the case.
The other two Axis attack targets were hit hard, especially the fleet. The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses. Im still not sure where the defenders went, they didnt tower out until much later in the event.
Oh wait, I forgot about this one too: I suppose I can wine about the Ar234's roaming freely, with an advantage of being able to up prior to the rest of the players. But nah, it does nothing good.
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I had a blast! I participated in one of the biggest furballs I've ever seen! Nice to see some historical accuracy in the skins aswell 4th FG P51B's against JG5 109G14's :aok.
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Well from my end it looked like a fun evening. Im not going to be dragged into a endless debate on the plane set. I stated my reasons for the selections I made. The strength of SEA setups and FSOs are that they are never the same event twice, even if you re ran an old one, variables always happen. Plane sets are like that too, sometimes a/c get left in the hangar and sometimes they get used. Ratios also can vary widely, as can # targets and the side ratios. Im not a flawless being, my setups are less-than-perfect, but I try and make them fun, and historical, and balanced. Its not as easy as you might think.
I will end this with a small point, I find it interesting that despite the fact its June-Aug 1944, nobody has mentioned the complete lack of P-51Ds? perhaps that was deliberate, perhaps that was also for balance? Tempest? more Spit 14s? Arados with formations?, if I wanted to just fill up one side with the uber rides to the hilt, beleive me I could have done it, but that was never my intent, and it never will be.
In any case <S>! cya all next week, and try to have some fun out there.
PS: Dont sweat the invasion Axis, its all just a big decoy, they are coming at Pas De Calais! ;)
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PS: Dont sweat the invasion Axis, its all just a big decoy, they are coming at Pas De Calais! ;)
:O
Does that mean some M4A3/75mm and M8 vs Pzr IV match ups??? SCHWEET!!!
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So in other words, the Spit16 didn't sway the battle and cause a short night, or a loss for the Axis? ;) They, the aircraft, didnt give the Allies any sort of advantage that the AH Spit 9 would also not have given.
At A73 they did make a difference, and according to the logs, everywhere they were encountered they made a difference. I guess you weren't in the area so you missed that. I do understand, being an expert like yourself is tough.
I guess I could cry about having to use the B25's instead of the B26's, but what is the point? I supposed I could wine about having the use some of the Spit 16's as ground attack aircraft (gasp, their traditional role!). I suppose I complain about having to use the Typhoons as attack platforms instead of their traditional MA boom-n-zoom/HO craft, but nah, what is the point. I think many guys simply jump the gun and make mental images of the MA pick fest and automatically figure the FSO is going to be a mirror image of the MA fiasco. Hardly the case.
Cry, whine, have a break dancing tantrum for all I care. I don't jump the gun about crap. The 109G-14 is barely a match for the spixteen or spit14. The 109G-6 in AH is no match at all, in the MA's, FSO, SEC or Snapshots. Can a person flying a G6 shoot down a spixteen? Yes, if the circumstances are right, but then so could a 190F-8. If the 109G-6 in AH was the AS model it would be slightly more competitive and there wouldn't be so much concern about the match up.
The other two Axis attack targets were hit hard, especially the fleet. The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses. Im still not sure where the defenders went, they didnt tower out until much later in the event.
Oh wait, I forgot about this one too: I suppose I can wine about the Ar234's roaming freely, with an advantage of being able to up prior to the rest of the players. But nah, it does nothing good.
Yeah, 98 total objects destroyed by Axis fighter/bombers is a lot of damage. You sure do know what you're talking about.
Squire, no offense...it's not a real bad setup, you can only work with what you have. The P-51B is just as competitive as the P-51D, may not be as fast, but it is more maneuverable.
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We saw some spits at the fleet on the first attack, but when we returned there was nobody around. Each time we went out we were like "Well this shouldnt last long" (being in the 190F8) but each time we got in and out with a few losses. Ship ack hit my forward fuel and totally drained it. I ran out of gas over the sinking DDs and was hauled aboard an allied lifeboat where unspeakable acts were done upon me.
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Yeah, 98 total objects destroyed by Axis fighter/bombers is a lot of damage. You sure do know what you're talking about.
This is misleading, let me explain.
At V103 there are 26 objects worth points.
At A40 there are 48 objects worth points.
At C110 there are 132 objects worth points, however you can sink a ship and not get credit for all of the objects on it, in the logs.
That looks like 98 out of 206 which is very good results for an attack in WW2.
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After a quick peek.
The Allies shot down 106 enemy AC.
The Axis shot down 143 enemy AC.
The Allies had 98 pilots who were captured or crashed.
The Axis had 59 pilots who were captured or crashed.
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I really had some fun with those jugs in my 234 :P
Made 3 or 4 of them drop ord without even me firing a shot.
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I will end this with a small point, I find it interesting that despite the fact its June-Aug 1944, nobody has mentioned the complete lack of P-51Ds? perhaps that was deliberate, perhaps that was also for balance?
I was under the impression the P-51D was just coming into service in June, at least with the 8th AF.
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At A73 they did make a difference, and according to the logs, everywhere they were encountered they made a difference. I guess you weren't in the area so you missed that. I do understand, being an expert like yourself is tough.
Cry, whine, have a break dancing tantrum for all I care. I don't jump the gun about crap. The 109G-14 is barely a match for the spixteen or spit14. The 109G-6 in AH is no match at all, in the MA's, FSO, SEC or Snapshots. Can a person flying a G6 shoot down a spixteen? Yes, if the circumstances are right, but then so could a 190F-8. If the 109G-6 in AH was the AS model it would be slightly more competitive and there wouldn't be so much concern about the match up.
Yeah, 98 total objects destroyed by Axis fighter/bombers is a lot of damage. You sure do know what you're talking about.
Squire, no offense...it's not a real bad setup, you can only work with what you have. The P-51B is just as competitive as the P-51D, may not be as fast, but it is more maneuverable.
You, like anyone else, can make stats show what you want them too. If you look at the hard numbers, the ratio of targets killed, to aircraft used, etc., the Spit16 didnt fair any better than the Axis did vs the P47's, P38's, Tiffs, or even the P51B's.
I say again the Spit16 offered no more advantage than what the Spit 9 would have. Did you look at the stats for A42? How did the Spit16 fair there? Take your stats and shove 'em right into the shredder. In the cae of A73, both units were well versed in what they did. Neither unit I would consider a "filler", both were towards to top when it came for me to assign aircraft. Units and the pilots within those units can make or break the "stats".
Before you jump down my throat about crying, notice I didnt cry about anything at anytime. I simply made a statement that the others, like you, should stop and take things for what they are worth.
Stand down, tough guy. :huh
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Right you are Nef, im a fan of the P-51B/C and I often find too much attention gets payed to the D model, as if somehow it was the only version that saw any action, but I was just pointing out that "legally" I could have stuffed it in there in a Summer 44 setup.
Spikes, you nasty dog, did you make anybody flinch?, glad you had fun in the Arado. I kinda like that cool engine start sound. My 190A-8 just belched black smoke at me. Just remember, its a lease, don't scratch it! ;)
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Not sure if they flinched or not :P
I ended up damaging a P47 knocking off half of his tail and getting a fuel on him. NKL5 helped me out and waxed another one too. We ruffled some feathers though :)
I would like to req. that the 234s can use RATOs only on takeoff and send the film in that they did. I understand why they are not allowed, but they would really help out with a full bomb load and fuel.
I got two engine oil leaks yesterday, but I've got plenty of Jumo's back at home and she'll be all fixed up for next week, promise :)
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RATOs, ya. Hmm. I really have always disliked the all too common practice of rolling with them and using them for the very unhistoric "escape warp". Its a very fast a/c as it is, and the RATO makes them next to impossible to intercept. Fine in the MA (I dont care) but im not a fan of that in SEA setups. I want them hard to get close to but not impossible. Sending in film is a nice idea, but not my 1st choice. I did some test runs myself, and found that with a nice easy TO run the RATO isnt really needed (although, it sounds really cool). 100 fuel isnt really required in a setup where the targets are fairly close. Would be different if they had a really long mission run and had to roll with a max load. I wish HTC just had them start as soon as you hit the throttle. Maybe they will change it down the road.
Thats a long way of saying. No RATO For You. Cutoff. One Year. :D
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After a quick peek.
The Allies shot down 106 enemy AC.
The Axis shot down 143 enemy AC.
The Allies had 98 pilots who were captured or crashed.
The Axis had 59 pilots who were captured or crashed.
Axis overcame the balance disparity with better strategy, tactics, and skill. No other way to explain it. Very surprising upset.
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Very surprising upset.
Not really, given the caliber of the pilots flying them!
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Why the debate about the 51D if you already have the 51B? It might be just me but i like the 51B better at high altitude and missing 2 50's isn't such a big deal to me.
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The other two Axis attack targets were hit hard, especially the fleet. The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses. Im still not sure where the defenders went, they didnt tower out until much later in the event.
That is an outright lie. Spit 16's were over the fleet, able to dive and stay with the 190s.
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Why the debate about the 51D if you already have the 51B? It might be just me but i like the 51B better at high altitude and missing 2 50's isn't such a big deal to me.
There is no debate here, I figured the P-51D was not included in this setup because of its service dates.
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Hey Nefarious I like your Avatar, can I borrow it for June? I promise it won't come back in any better shape though. :D
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I have to admit that I anticipated an Allied romp.
In our squads case, we knew exactly what our planes could do best, and stuck with that. (which happend to be, attack fast and run :) )
A very fun night. great job to "Perdweeb". :aok
:salute
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That is an outright lie. Spit 16's were over the fleet, able to dive and stay with the 190s.
Watch your tongue, Junior. The second wave of 190's had absolutely no Allied air cons to worry about, I watched the entire second wave attack from "Gawd View" over the fleet.
Oh, and no Spitfire is able to hang with any of the 190's in a high speed dive. At least not in a controlled manner, the Spitfires lock up far earlier than the 190's.
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Axis overcame the balance disparity with better strategy, tactics, and skill. No other way to explain it. Very surprising upset.
You forgot 3 major factors: Blown coverage (for the Allies), insubordination (within the Allies), and a wee bit of luck, too (in favor of the Axis). :aok
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You forgot 3 major factors: Blown coverage (for the Allies), insubordination (within the Allies), and a wee bit of luck, too (in favor of the Axis). :aok
I don't doubt it. There had to have been some sort of epic fail for Allies not to demolish Axis in that one.
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Watch your tongue, Junior. The second wave of 190's had absolutely no Allied air cons to worry about, I watched the entire second wave attack from "Gawd View" over the fleet.
Oh, and no Spitfire is able to hang with any of the 190's in a high speed dive. At least not in a controlled manner, the Spitfires lock up far earlier than the 190's.
Don't call me junior, I don't put up with loud mouth fools such as yourself.
Your exact words were: "The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses." . If you wish to change your story to that being the 2nd wave then feel free too, the fact you prefer to lie has already been noted by many.
The 190s encountered a bunch of Spit 16's. Those Spit 16's were able to keep up with the 190's in a dive. Between 15000 and 5000 feet the Spit 16 is faster under WEP than the F8. Under 5k the F8 has an 8mph speed advantage, not enough to get away from a spit 16, any evasives performed by an F8 soon erode those speed advantage.
Maybe you're not sure where the defenders went because you really don't know what happened?
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Don't call me junior, I don't put up with loud mouth fools such as yourself.
Your exact words were: "The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses." . If you wish to change your story to that being the 2nd wave then feel free too, the fact you prefer to lie has already been noted by many.
The 190s encountered a bunch of Spit 16's. Those Spit 16's were able to keep up with the 190's in a dive. Between 15000 and 5000 feet the Spit 16 is faster under WEP than the F8. Under 5k the F8 has an 8mph speed advantage, not enough to get away from a spit 16, any evasives performed by an F8 soon erode those speed advantage.
Maybe you're not sure where the defenders went because you really don't know what happened?
Hey Junior (I'm going to keep calling you Jr. until you sit down), I watched the 4 destroyers go deep sixin' via multiple 190's (4-6), not a single Spitfire was there to defend it. This was for during the second wave of attacks. There is even a quote from one of those attacker in the FSO forums stating as such. Im not changing my story, that is what i said in my first post, that is what I am saying now. Not sure how you're figuring that to be a lie, but you carry out your drama as you'd like. I do not know where those Spitfire's were that were assigned to defend it, I asked for a SITREP on 3 different occasions and received no reply from either group of defenders.
Maybe you're not clearing reading my statement about the Spit vs 190 in a dive: Lemme try and spell it out for you again: the Spitfire will lock up much sooner than the 190 thus being unable to control itself as well as the 190 at high speeds. Control is the key word there. Speed will be very similar, but the advantage will go to the 190.
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There will be mismatches in various places in any given FSO. The absence of some spits over a task group is not suprising, (they can't be everywhere at once), but this does not make the 190's any more effective in their role. Elsewhere, the spits handled the 109 fighter sweep at 25-30K very effecively, and later bounced the 190's as they were hitting the airfield causing significant losses. We (190F-8) had fun anyway, and had to operate in a very narrow range of operations in order to have a fighting chance. The Spits and even P-38's chasing us did not seem to have very many problems catching a good number of our guys. The setup is what it is, make the best of it. It seems strange that the Allied side would be complaining in this one.
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Well Mr Loon,
Since you appear to have only been a registered member of these forums since 2008, while Vulcan has been a respectable member since 2001, I believe it is you who are in fact the "Junior" here regardless of the number or content of the previous posts you may have made.
So please sit yourself down.
As for the relative merits of heavily loaded Medium Alt Fw 190F-8s vs. Co-Alt or Higher Spitfire Mk XVIs, I'll let th members of this community decide which plane they would rather fly under those conditions. About the only thing an F-8 can do in this situation is dive away and hope to pickle his bombs off before he gets caught.
The Nightmares began the night with 15 pilots. We lost 4 to discos or other causes enroute to the target. Our first strike arrived over the target with 11 vs. the 367th's appx. 7-9, and we still lost 5 to Air-to-Air or Ack at the target. I guess the Spits really didn't have any problems staying with our F-8s.
Our second strike arrived with 6, lost another 2 to the Ack, and made it back to base with 4.
I'll admit that we encountered no defenders during the second strike, but I think that was probably just due to our taking advantage of timing and the Spit's short fuel range, as we deliberately avoided a quick follow-up strike...or maybe it was just blind luck.
CptA
FSO CO
Nightmares VMF-101
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Maybe you're not clearing reading my statement about the Spit vs 190 in a dive: Lemme try and spell it out for you again: the Spitfire will lock up much sooner than the 190 thus being unable to control itself as well as the 190 at high speeds. Control is the key word there. Speed will be very similar, but the advantage will go to the 190.
Well boy, let me point this out to you, the 190s were caught and shot down by the spits in the dive. The reality is this was not a dive to the deck, but a bombing run, you can't just point your nose straight down. The Spit 16 is also a clipped wing spit, it doesn't suffer the same level of control issues as other spits. The 190F8 is the worst performing of all the 190s in AH. So you have the best diving and rolling spit vs the worst 190. Given the spitfires got kills on the first 190s your theory proves worthless anyway.
On the first wave my job was escort, I was able to distract 4 or 5 spits. Had I not managed to clear some of those guys 6's we would've been much worse off. I saw the spits roll in on the guys bombing, and despite being in a cleaner ride had trouble catching them in a dive. Once we hit the deck a couple of spits saddled up on me, and the spits in front scissored in behind me.
The spits had no trouble staying with the F8s in a dive, or rolling with them, or catching them on the deck. Maybe looking in 'god' mode you thought you saw different, but the people playing actually know different as the logs also prove. Get a grip boy.
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Well boy, let me point this out to you, the 190s were caught and shot down by the spits in the dive. The reality is this was not a dive to the deck, but a bombing run, you can't just point your nose straight down. The Spit 16 is also a clipped wing spit, it doesn't suffer the same level of control issues as other spits. The 190F8 is the worst performing of all the 190s in AH. So you have the best diving and rolling spit vs the worst 190. Given the spitfires got kills on the first 190s your theory proves worthless anyway.
On the first wave my job was escort, I was able to distract 4 or 5 spits. Had I not managed to clear some of those guys 6's we would've been much worse off. I saw the spits roll in on the guys bombing, and despite being in a cleaner ride had trouble catching them in a dive. Once we hit the deck a couple of spits saddled up on me, and the spits in front scissored in behind me.
The spits had no trouble staying with the F8s in a dive, or rolling with them, or catching them on the deck. Maybe looking in 'god' mode you thought you saw different, but the people playing actually know different as the logs also prove. Get a grip boy.
Evidently, you're still not reading my reply correctly. I am not disputing the overall superiority of the Spit16 over the 190F-8, that isn't the issue. My stance for this thread is real simple: The Fw190 regardless of which model, will out dive a Spitfire, regardless of which model, in terms of control. The speed advantage will still be on the side of the 190 in that dive, but not much. Once that dive is completed, there is very little the 190 can do that the Spitfire16 can do better and all bets are off. Even the most veteran of pilots have trouble doing much with a 190 once their E is gone and a Spit16 is on their tail.
Secondly, I have not mentioned one single word about the first strike. Again, that isnt the issue. As your teammate above said for himself, there were no Spitfires on station above the fleet on their second attack. I watched from the absent tower (in gawd view) as those 190's came in for their second attack. I did not see the first attack, likewise I did not mention the first attack in the least bit. Do you comprehend that? Do you understand the words that have been typed?
... and I don't care how long you've been a registered member here in these forums. Being registered in the forums has no bearing on much other than having a date besides your forums name (just like my sig line says about scores, etc). Obviously, your ability on being clear, concise, and cogent in your statements and arguments are as elementary as it gets. You're throwing stones and creating drama when you didn't even understand the issue from the beginning. Shall we revisit you calling me a liar and for what reason? Junior?
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The point you were trying to make was to negate the Spit 16 effectiveness. Had those been Spit 9's over the fleet then the 190F8s most likely would've taken much lighter losses.
If you had not seen the first attack then I struggle to see what your point was in mentioning the fleet attacks? You seem to be trying to paint a picture of the 16's have nil effect on the fleet attacks, now you admit you only saw a small portion of the engagement. If you don't have the full picture of what happened maybe you should just zip it boy.
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That is an outright lie. Spit 16's were over the fleet, able to dive and stay with the 190s.
Not only that, But they were at 30k and we were 22k. Get the Picture? :bolt:
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The point you were trying to make was to negate the Spit 16 effectiveness. Had those been Spit 9's over the fleet then the 190F8s most likely would've taken much lighter losses.
If you had not seen the first attack then I struggle to see what your point was in mentioning the fleet attacks? You seem to be trying to paint a picture of the 16's have nil effect on the fleet attacks, now you admit you only saw a small portion of the engagement. If you don't have the full picture of what happened maybe you should just zip it boy.
Negatory on both accounts. I not once negated the effectiveness of the Spit16. Please quote where I did. Also, I only ever mentioned the second attack, and I did not once mention how the Spit16's had nil effect on the battle. The absence of them, yes. But them in particular, no. Two very different things. You're throwing stones for what reason? Calling me a liar for what reason?
Witnessing half of the attack, and actually the half in which far more devastation was done counts for a bit more than "a small portion" wouldn't you agree? That isnt an admission in the least bit, that is what I've been saying all along. Again, you're peein' into the wind. You need not do that. You're scrambling to find words to keep an argument going that you have created and I'm not sure why.
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Let me attempt to nip this in the bud.
There were spits over the target when we were on our first strike.
There were no spits over target on our second strike.
We bombed and strafed the evah-luvin *&^% outta that fleet.
Id prefer to be in a Spit16 over an FW190F8 any day of the week.
Things were said, perhaps misread, more things were said.
I think we can end this.
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Thank you Filth.