Adjustment to OOB for "Angels Eight"

[Baumer]

Very surprising upset.

Not really, given the caliber of the pilots flying them!

[Mus51]

Why the debate about the 51D if you already have the 51B? It might be just me but i like the 51B better at high altitude and missing 2 50's isn't such a big deal to me.

[Vulcan]

The other two Axis attack targets were hit hard, especially the fleet.  The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses.  Im still not sure where the defenders went, they didnt tower out until much later in the event. 

That is an outright lie. Spit 16's were over the fleet, able to dive and stay with the 190s.

[Nefarious]

Why the debate about the 51D if you already have the 51B? It might be just me but i like the 51B better at high altitude and missing 2 50's isn't such a big deal to me.

There is no debate here, I figured the P-51D was not included in this setup because of its service dates.

[Squire]

Hey Nefarious I like your Avatar, can I borrow it for June?  I promise it won't come back in any better shape though. 

[Sled]

I have to admit that I anticipated an Allied romp.

In our squads case, we knew exactly what our planes could do best, and stuck with that. (which happend to be, attack fast and run )


A very fun night. great job to "Perdweeb".   

 

[SmokinLoon]

That is an outright lie. Spit 16's were over the fleet, able to dive and stay with the 190s.

Watch your tongue, Junior.  The second wave of 190's had absolutely no Allied air cons to worry about, I watched the entire second wave attack from "Gawd View" over the fleet. 

Oh, and no Spitfire is able to hang with any of the 190's in a high speed dive.  At least not in a controlled manner, the Spitfires lock up far earlier than the 190's.   

[SmokinLoon]

Axis overcame the balance disparity with better strategy, tactics, and skill.  No other way to explain it.  Very surprising upset.

You forgot 3 major factors: Blown coverage (for the Allies), insubordination (within the Allies), and a wee bit of luck, too (in favor of the Axis).   

[grizz441]

You forgot 3 major factors: Blown coverage (for the Allies), insubordination (within the Allies), and a wee bit of luck, too (in favor of the Axis).   

I don't doubt it.  There had to have been some sort of epic fail for Allies not to demolish Axis in that one.

[Vulcan]

Watch your tongue, Junior.  The second wave of 190's had absolutely no Allied air cons to worry about, I watched the entire second wave attack from "Gawd View" over the fleet.  

Oh, and no Spitfire is able to hang with any of the 190's in a high speed dive.  At least not in a controlled manner, the Spitfires lock up far earlier than the 190's.    

Don't call me junior, I don't put up with loud mouth fools such as yourself.

Your exact words were: "The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses." . If you wish to change your story to that being the 2nd wave then feel free too, the fact you prefer to lie has already been noted by many.

The 190s encountered a bunch of Spit 16's. Those Spit 16's were able to keep up with the 190's in a dive. Between 15000 and 5000 feet the Spit 16 is faster under WEP than the F8.  Under 5k the F8 has an 8mph speed advantage, not enough to get away from a spit 16, any evasives performed by an F8 soon erode those speed advantage.

Maybe you're not sure where the defenders went because you really don't know what happened?

[SmokinLoon]

Don't call me junior, I don't put up with loud mouth fools such as yourself.

Your exact words were: "The 190's were able to freely come back and drop ord and strafe away without any fighter defenses." . If you wish to change your story to that being the 2nd wave then feel free too, the fact you prefer to lie has already been noted by many.

The 190s encountered a bunch of Spit 16's. Those Spit 16's were able to keep up with the 190's in a dive. Between 15000 and 5000 feet the Spit 16 is faster under WEP than the F8.  Under 5k the F8 has an 8mph speed advantage, not enough to get away from a spit 16, any evasives performed by an F8 soon erode those speed advantage.

Maybe you're not sure where the defenders went because you really don't know what happened?

Hey Junior (I'm going to keep calling you Jr. until you sit down), I watched the 4 destroyers go deep sixin' via multiple 190's (4-6), not a single Spitfire was there to defend it.  This was for during the second wave of attacks.  There is even a quote from one of those attacker in the FSO forums stating as such.  Im not changing my story, that is what i said in my first post, that is what I am saying now.  Not sure how you're figuring that to be a lie, but you carry out your drama as you'd like.  I do not know where those Spitfire's were that were assigned to defend it, I asked for a SITREP on 3 different occasions and received no reply from either group of defenders.

Maybe you're not clearing reading my statement about the Spit vs 190 in a dive: Lemme try and spell it out for you again: the Spitfire will lock up much sooner than the 190 thus being unable to control itself as well as the 190 at high speeds.  Control is the key word there.  Speed will be very similar, but the advantage will go to the 190.

[TracerX]

There will be mismatches in various places in any given FSO.  The absence of some spits over a task group is not suprising, (they can't be everywhere at once), but this does not make the 190's any more effective in their role.  Elsewhere, the spits handled the 109 fighter sweep at 25-30K very effecively, and later bounced the 190's as they were hitting the airfield causing significant losses.  We (190F-8) had fun anyway, and had to operate in a very narrow range of operations in order to have a fighting chance.  The Spits and even P-38's chasing us did not seem to have very many problems catching a good number of our guys.  The setup is what it is, make the best of it.  It seems strange that the Allied side would be complaining in this one.

[CptA]

Well Mr Loon,

Since you appear to have only been a registered member of these forums since 2008, while Vulcan has been a respectable member since 2001, I believe it is you who are in fact the "Junior" here regardless of the number or content of the previous posts you may have made.

So please sit yourself down.

As for the relative merits of heavily loaded Medium Alt Fw 190F-8s vs. Co-Alt or Higher Spitfire Mk XVIs, I'll let th members of this community decide which plane they would rather fly under those conditions. About the only thing an F-8 can do in this situation is dive away and hope to pickle his bombs off before he gets caught.

The Nightmares began the night with 15 pilots. We lost 4 to discos or other causes enroute to the target. Our first strike arrived over the target with 11 vs. the 367th's appx. 7-9, and we still lost 5 to Air-to-Air or Ack at the target. I guess the Spits really didn't have any problems staying with our F-8s.

Our second strike arrived with 6, lost another 2 to the Ack, and made it back to base with 4.

I'll admit that we encountered no defenders during the second strike, but I think that was probably just due to our taking advantage of timing and the Spit's short fuel range, as we deliberately avoided a quick follow-up strike...or maybe it was just blind luck.

CptA
FSO CO
Nightmares VMF-101

[Vulcan]

Maybe you're not clearing reading my statement about the Spit vs 190 in a dive: Lemme try and spell it out for you again: the Spitfire will lock up much sooner than the 190 thus being unable to control itself as well as the 190 at high speeds.  Control is the key word there.  Speed will be very similar, but the advantage will go to the 190.

Well boy, let me point this out to you, the 190s were caught and shot down by the spits in the dive. The reality is this was not a dive to the deck, but a bombing run, you can't just point your nose straight down. The Spit 16 is also a clipped wing spit, it doesn't suffer the same level of control issues as other spits. The 190F8 is the worst performing of all the 190s in AH. So you have the best diving and rolling spit vs the worst 190. Given the spitfires got kills on the first 190s your theory proves worthless anyway.

On the first wave my job was escort, I was able to distract 4 or 5 spits. Had I not managed to clear some of those guys 6's we would've been much worse off. I saw the spits roll in on the guys bombing, and despite being in a cleaner ride had trouble catching them in a dive. Once we hit the deck a couple of spits saddled up on me, and the spits in front scissored in behind me.

The spits had no trouble staying with the F8s in a dive, or rolling with them, or catching them on the deck. Maybe looking in 'god' mode you thought you saw different, but the people playing actually know different as the logs also prove. Get a grip boy.

[SmokinLoon]

Well boy, let me point this out to you, the 190s were caught and shot down by the spits in the dive. The reality is this was not a dive to the deck, but a bombing run, you can't just point your nose straight down. The Spit 16 is also a clipped wing spit, it doesn't suffer the same level of control issues as other spits. The 190F8 is the worst performing of all the 190s in AH. So you have the best diving and rolling spit vs the worst 190. Given the spitfires got kills on the first 190s your theory proves worthless anyway.

On the first wave my job was escort, I was able to distract 4 or 5 spits. Had I not managed to clear some of those guys 6's we would've been much worse off. I saw the spits roll in on the guys bombing, and despite being in a cleaner ride had trouble catching them in a dive. Once we hit the deck a couple of spits saddled up on me, and the spits in front scissored in behind me.

The spits had no trouble staying with the F8s in a dive, or rolling with them, or catching them on the deck. Maybe looking in 'god' mode you thought you saw different, but the people playing actually know different as the logs also prove. Get a grip boy.

Evidently, you're still not reading my reply correctly.  I am not disputing the overall superiority of the Spit16 over the 190F-8, that isn't the issue.  My stance for this thread is real simple: The Fw190 regardless of which model, will out dive a Spitfire, regardless of which model, in terms of control.  The speed advantage will still be on the side of the 190 in that dive, but not much.  Once that dive is completed, there is very little the 190 can do that the Spitfire16 can do better and all bets are off.  Even the most veteran of pilots have trouble doing much with a 190 once their E is gone and a Spit16 is on their tail.

Secondly, I have not mentioned one single word about the first strike.  Again, that isnt the issue.  As your teammate above said for himself, there were no Spitfires on station above the fleet on their second attack.  I watched from the absent tower (in gawd view) as those 190's came in for their second attack.  I did not see the first attack, likewise I did not mention the first attack in the least bit.  Do you comprehend that?  Do you understand the words that have been typed?

... and I don't care how long you've been a registered member here in these forums.  Being registered in the forums has no bearing on much other than having a date besides your forums name (just like my sig line says about scores, etc).  Obviously, your ability on being clear, concise, and cogent in your statements and arguments are as elementary as it gets.  You're throwing stones and creating drama when you didn't even understand the issue from the beginning.  Shall we revisit you calling me a liar and for what reason?  Junior?