Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BrownBaron on June 02, 2010, 01:23:26 AM
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Has anyone else noticed the 30mm just doesn't have the same...destructive power it used to? Not sure when this change came about, but it seems quite prevailant now. It use to be a one hit one kill weapon, but now the damage is but a ghost of what it once was. I've noticed it all through tonight, as have some of my fellow tater warriors.
Needless to say, I will back up my claims with evidence.
One sortie I happened to be filming from this week end...
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab208/bbazzal/spit4.jpg)
A point blank hit on the engine/cockpit area....
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab208/bbazzal/spit5.jpg)
And he flys off with oil leakage.
I also remember hitting an F4F from D400 square in the tail, and he only lost a elevator, and hitting a 110's wingtip and the wingtip simply fracturing...Most would agree that both such hits would normally result in an instantaneous explosion of said planes.
Not sure if scaling down of this weapon was intentional or not, but I don't like it. :frown:
More evidence to come as it becomes available..
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YES!!!! or worst yet a fuel leak
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Hell, that tater might not even have done any damage at all, that could have just been the 13mm MG's...
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The tater you showed here looks like it was an engine kill. I don't really consider that a tater dud anymore. That being said, I have been hitting planes, La7s in particular, point blank with taters with absolutely no apparent damage. I posted a couple films of it in a bugs thread.
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Who cares. That first picture is TOTALLY WICKED!
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The tater you showed here looks like it was an engine kill. I don't really consider that a tater dud anymore. That being said, I have been hitting planes, La7s in particular, point blank with taters with absolutely no apparent damage. I posted a couple films of it in a bugs thread.
I agree that they are not duds, but most definitely seeing reduced damage. A tater aficionado sucha s yourself would concur that the result of that shot should be a midair poof followed by channel 200 whining.
Who cares. That first picture is TOTALLY WICKED!
Hehe, admiring my inverted handiwork? Getting pretty decent in that ride, if i do say so myself... :)
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La-7s are tough little birds. I recall hitting one with ten Hispano II rounds without any apparent effect. I was flying a Tiffie at the time and the hits came over an extended fight, so they were easy to count.
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The tater you showed here looks like it was an engine kill. I don't really consider that a tater dud anymore. That being said, I have been hitting planes, La7s in particular, point blank with taters with absolutely no apparent damage. I posted a couple films of it in a bugs thread.
same here, I hit a LA7 in the fuselage and he sustained no damage
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If a 30mm hits a wingtip or, say, elevator flap it is very much possible that the target only loses just the wingtip of that elevator flap since, although being a huge bang, the tater also needs a surface it can build the pressure upon. If it explodes in such place it will dissipate the pressure it generates to ambient air and only a fracture to target surface, but usually still enough to fracture the contact surface to shambles. Of course the fuse timing is also an issue and the place of the actual explosion depends on that after the projectile has hit the surface and the "timer" is triggered.
Now, a fuselage hit is a totally different case because it can generate a hefty over pressure.
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/weapon/mk108blenheim.jpg)
Of course it is again a totally different matter how complex the modeling can be in a game. I've hit a Pony with two taters simultaneously hitting the engine cowling from above and the engine died and that is actually all I expect to happen when a projectile with heavy punch hits the heaviest place in a plane.
But only an oil leak...? :huh
-C+
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Hehe, admiring my inverted handiwork? Getting pretty decent in that ride, if i do say so myself... :)
Absolutely.
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I'm having problems bringing down jap planes w/ 30mm than anything else. Totally nerfed. :uhoh :cry
...there is a 30 page thread on here somewhere Scotch started like 3 years ago about 30mm damage and its only gotten weaker LOL
:D
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I'm having problems bringing down jap planes w/ 30mm than anything else. Totally nerfed. :uhoh :cry
...there is a 30 page thread on here somewhere Scotch started like 3 years ago about 30mm damage and its only gotten weaker LOL
:D
That thread is epic...no HTC response
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BYRF and I have been talking about this at nauseum on Squad TS; and the tater seems to be much crappier than it was before the last couple of updates.....something is dorked up...other than my gunnery of course.
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I also remember hitting an F4F from D400 square in the tail, and he only lost a elevator...
That IS an F4F you're talking about. Just about the toughest plane there is in the game.
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And this is a 30mm we're talking about...one of the bigger plane-mounted guns in the game...
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This has been an issue for a long time. Its not new.
I agree though that there is something wrong. The k4 is the only plane I fly. I have shot enough times at enough people to know that there is a modeling issue....what it is I do not know.
I expected the new damage model to make the 30mm (tater) even more deadly. But it seems it treats the round as the same as multiple 50 call hits.
Its almost seems like the damage is calculated on a strait line damage scale regardless of the round shot.
For example: a small round like a 5.56 cant shoot through a concrete wall like a 50 cal can. If you fire enough rounds of 5.56 at a concrete wall you will eventually drill a hole through it.
The point is you can't calculate damage based on a strait line model. Each type of round has to be calculated.
I would expect a 30mm HE round would blow the whole dam tail off a plane not just take a piece.
I think all the "hit boxes" for a part of the plane are the same. Damage is calculated on a strait line model....a 30mm is equal to say 25, 50 cal rounds or 100 BB's in the same hit box.
Who knows because HTC hasn't commented.
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I upped a few 262 sorties today to mix it up a bit, but after this I was very discouraged to go up in one again.
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9897/me262shots1.png)
Notice his missing stabilizer before this pass. I had taken that out with a previous raking of 30 mils.
(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5264/me262shots2.png)
(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7393/me262shots3.png)
Absolutely no damage. :headscratch: Prolly woulda gotten him had I been firing 50 cals.
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:lol
Tell us luftwhiners something isn't wrong after seeing those screen shots.
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Of all the aircraft mounted cannons the Rheinmetall MK108 30mm with the standard Minengeschoss HEI shells should not take more than 2 rounds to knock a wing off any aircraft in AH.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1041 (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1041)
http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html (http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html)
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Maybe it's one of HTC's fancy pantsed balance deals?
Only throwing it out there, I don't fly german 30mm birds anymore because of the *points to thread name*
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yup yup, ive noticed to.
-BigBOBCH
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What's the point of learning how to master this stub-nosed trajectorily challenged cannon if it doesn't have the awesome destructive power it had?
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TonyJoey,
No doubt, that should have taken out that Mossie. I can post an image of a real Mossie that took two or three 30mm rounds from an Me262, but you hit far harder than that.
Your evaluation of the .50 cals is off though, the Mossie is very tough and I routinely get peppered with .50 cal fire for no effect on my Mossie.
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Hit a k4 4 separate times with 30mm and eventually the last 1 worked.
http://www.mediafire.com/?jjj1h5mdtmz
1:59
2:37
2:43
3:06
Ignore my crappy flyin :)
MickyD
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Bring out HTC we Luftwhiners need to have a sit down....
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It is kinda weird that no one from HTC has commented on any of the taterdud threads.
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It is kinda weird that no one from HTC has commented on any of the taterdud threads.
.... just shut it Paul
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sad to say but I think they hate the luft stuff, and don't give a hoot.
put the thread in the bugs category????? :headscratch:
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put the thread in the bugs category????? :headscratch:
Been there done that...
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Again alot of it has to do with the re modeling of the tail damage........anyone notice how well certain planes fly with no tail these days ^_^
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Taters schmaters... how about the fact a near miss causes a freekin pilot wound lately?
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I do wonder how much is just lag, and it being more obvious for the 30mm since there's fewer rounds fired as opposed to the .50cal.
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.... just shut it John
fixed :P
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:lol
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I upped a few 262 sorties today to mix it up a bit, but after this I was very discouraged to go up in one again.
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9897/me262shots1.png)
Notice his missing stabilizer before this pass. I had taken that out with a previous raking of 30 mils.
(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5264/me262shots2.png)
(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7393/me262shots3.png)
Absolutely no damage. :headscratch: Prolly woulda gotten him had I been firing 50 cals.
Looks like those shells are hitting the ground to me.
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Looks like those shells are hitting the ground to me.
They're most definately not. I hit him with even more on that same pass, nothing.
Karnak, was just exaggerating a bit to make a point.
Either the tater is nerfed, or the Mossie is made of titanium, which is a viable option. Raked one a couple passes with 6 .50's with no result.
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They're most definately not. I hit him with even more on that same pass, nothing.
Karnak, was just exaggerating a bit to make a point.
Either the tater is nerfed, or the Mossie is made of titanium, which is a viable option. Raked one a couple passes with 6 .50's with no result.
The ground pwns TJ
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I will make the same argument here that I made about M-3s getting hit by tanks and not dying every single time. Not my "dud" theory :neener: .
Essentially what you want is a kill every time a 30mm hits, anywhere. I'd be willing to bet that, in real life, you wouldn't necessarily get a kill every time. It would be a very likely possibility but a statistical impossibility.
The Mossie picture also brings up an interesting scenario as I was recently reading an account of a ME262 vs a recon Mosquito. The Mosquito was hit four times and still managed to make it back to Italy and land.
Now, take the total amount of 30mm shells fired that hit and divide by the amount of them that kill the aircraft that they hit. What do you suppose that ratio would be? Greater than 50%? Greater than 90%?
This calls for a pie chart.
wrongway
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I will make the same argument here that I made about M-3s getting hit by tanks and not dying every single time. Not my "dud" theory :neener: .
Essentially what you want is a kill every time a 30mm hits, anywhere. I'd be willing to bet that, in real life, you wouldn't necessarily get a kill every time. It would be a very likely possibility but a statistical impossibility.
The Mossie picture also brings up an interesting scenario as I was recently reading an account of a ME262 vs a recon Mosquito. The Mosquito was hit four times and still managed to make it back to Italy and land.
Now, take the total amount of 30mm shells fired that hit and divide by the amount of them that kill the aircraft that they hit. What do you suppose that ratio would be? Greater than 50%? Greater than 90%?
This calls for a pie chart.
wrongway
From personal experience I'd say it had been about 99% in the past that a tater either killed an engine or a critical component on a standard fighter. Now it's probably down to about 80%, where 20% of the taters are now complete duds, or taking off only a portion of the stabilizer. I have yet to make a tater shot that takes out the entire horiz stab.
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:lol
Tell us luftwhiners something isn't wrong after seeing those screen shots.
Hmm lets see, Mossie is brand new plane using a new damage system, possible new bug in a new plane?
or
From personal experience I'd say it had been about 99% in the past that a tater either killed an engine or a critical component on a standard fighter. Now it's probably down to about 80%, where 20% of the taters are now complete duds, or taking off only a portion of the stabilizer. I have yet to make a tater shot that takes out the entire horiz stab.
Classic luftwhiner statement. Stating we now have shells that are duds (of course only the luft wafa 30 mil are duds and less effective).
Which do you think is more probable?
Please send us the film so we can take a look.
HiTech
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Hmm lets see, Mossie is brand new plane using a new damage system, possible new bug in a new plane?
You guys didn't use the Sherman tank armor on that Mossie did you? :huh
That would explain a lot...not even a Tiger can do more than dent that armor with a single round. :D
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Well the allies don't have any 30mm shells, so it must be only German rds :)
I have to agree though...I understand hitting the engine and killing the engine/and/or oil...but I can't count how many times I've hit the horiz stab and it's flown off with a half of one.
I hit a tempest with a tater in the left wing and knocked it's wing off. This being at ~50 feet, it went into some crazy spin that I deemed uncontrollable, so I pulled off. I didn't get a kill after 5 seconds or so so I look back to see the tempest regained control perfectly with a half wing and landed 10 minutes later. I thought that was unreal that he pulled out of that crazy flat/vert spin that the typhs and temps can do with their tail, at under 100 feet, with out a wing.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the opposite about the 30 mm.
a few weeks ago i was in a mossie v a 109. i got hit "once" and lost a wing. 10 mins later same thing happened. 1 hit 1 wing gone.
same guy same plane. i was that fuming at it i acted a pillock on 200 and insinuated the C word.
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How about a thread with at least a few films...
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258664.0.html
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the opposite about the 30 mm.
a few weeks ago i was in a mossie v a 109. i got hit "once" and lost a wing. 10 mins later same thing happened. 1 hit 1 wing gone.
same guy same plane. i was that fuming at it i acted a pillock on 200 and insinuated the C word.
That is why we think they are duds. I too can hit a mossie once and take it down. I did it in the 163 which I made the shot a part of my video.
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Classic luftwhiner statement. Stating we now have shells that are duds (of course only the luft wafa 30 mil are duds and less effective).
Which do you think is more probable?
Please send us the film so we can take a look.
:lol Yeah, I'm whining, only because I've noticed an increased frequency lately.
I had posted a couple films in this thread a couple weeks ago about taters straight to fuselages of La7s and no damage, twice in the same sortie.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,289465.0.html
Unfortunately, no one downloaded them and speedyshare deleted the films. I will reupload them later when i get home from work to the Muppet ftp site and link them here and maybe you can check them tomorrow if you aren't too busy. They will be edited down. Thanks. :angel:
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Well the allies don't have any 30mm shells, so it must be only German rds :)
I have to agree though...I understand hitting the engine and killing the engine/and/or oil...but I can't count how many times I've hit the horiz stab and it's flown off with a half of one.
I hit a tempest with a tater in the left wing and knocked it's wing off. This being at ~50 feet, it went into some crazy spin that I deemed uncontrollable, so I pulled off. I didn't get a kill after 5 seconds or so so I look back to see the tempest regained control perfectly with a half wing and landed 10 minutes later. I thought that was unreal that he pulled out of that crazy flat/vert spin that the typhs and temps can do with their tail, at under 100 feet, with out a wing.
I've experienced that taking the tail off, so I fly on only to have it pull in behind my 38G, with a couple of 109K4s lately :)
much ado about nothing in the overall scheme of things as far as I can tell.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the opposite about the 30 mm.
a few weeks ago i was in a mossie v a 109. i got hit "once" and lost a wing. 10 mins later same thing happened. 1 hit 1 wing gone.
same guy same plane. i was that fuming at it i acted a pillock on 200 and insinuated the C word.
30mm HE round in a plywood aircraft?
Not rocket science
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Hmm lets see, Mossie is brand new plane using a new damage system, possible new bug in a new plane?
or
Classic luftwhiner statement. Stating we now have shells that are duds (of course only the luft wafa 30 mil are duds and less effective).
Which do you think is more probable?
Please send us the film so we can take a look.
HiTech
Thank you for the response HiTech. If I get any new films I will email them to you all at HTC for lab tests :aok
:salute
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30mm HE round in a plywood aircraft?
Not rocket science
The Mosquito's wooden was more resistant to HE rounds than the aluminum skins of other aircraft.
Be careful when you assume...
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Hmm lets see, Mossie is brand new plane using a new damage system, possible new bug in a new plane?
or
Classic luftwhiner statement. Stating we now have shells that are duds (of course only the luft wafa 30 mil are duds and less effective).
Which do you think is more probable?
Please send us the film so we can take a look.
HiTech
http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/Suns/worsttaterdudever.ahf
Tater hit to the cockpit area of a KI84 from almost point blank.
Ive posted more if you want to see those also.
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Hitech, here are the two duds that happened in the same sortie, about 1-2 minutes apart IIRC. Films are edited down to ten seconds a piece for your viewing pleasure. Taters to dead center of La7s. No apparent damage. Thank you for taking a Luftwhiner seriously, I hope you don't regret it. :angel: :salute
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Tater Dud1.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Tater Dud1.ahf) (Save links as)
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Tater Dud2.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Tater Dud2.ahf)
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Gotta go with the Luffberry Luftwaffe Weinies on this one HiTech... although the Mossi is brand new the pictures in this thread were of a 109 30mm into a (spitfire?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPWlYhfhLrI
compared to what it does in the game
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Gotta go with the Luffberry Luftwaffe Weinies on this one HiTech... although the Mossi is brand new the pictures in this thread were of a 109 30mm into a (spitfire?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPWlYhfhLrI
compared to what it does in the game
see the size of that hit sprite :O
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see the size of that hit sprite :O
Is it the 4th of July already?! :cheers:
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the opposite about the 30 mm.
a few weeks ago i was in a mossie v a 109. i got hit "once" and lost a wing. 10 mins later same thing happened. 1 hit 1 wing gone.
same guy same plane. i was that fuming at it i acted a pillock on 200 and insinuated the C word.
If this had taken place a few weeks ago, you would've been towered instantly, not just lost your wing..
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Gotta go with the Luffberry Luftwaffe Weinies on this one HiTech... although the Mossi is brand new the pictures in this thread were of a 109 30mm into a (spitfire?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPWlYhfhLrI
compared to what it does in the game
FYI, I don't think the Mosquito got a new damage model as compared to v2.18.
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Maybe some of u luffs should fly the YakT once in a while .....Mauahahahahahahaha
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Classic luftwhiner statement. Stating we now have shells that are duds (of course only the luft wafa 30 mil are duds and less effective).
Which do you think is more probable?
Please send us the film so we can take a look.
HiTech
When I was a kid it used to infuriate my dad when my mom would say, "the car is making a funny noise". He would always tell her she was imagining things. Problem was, sometimes she was right and after me, my brother and my mom spent a hot Houston afternoon broke down on the side of the road, guess who caught some healthy hell that night?
She drove the car everyday, she knew when something wasn't right.
What's my point? My point is Grizz loves you Hitech and I don't like it when you fight. It scares me that you guys might get a divorce.
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They're most definately not. I hit him with even more on that same pass, nothing.
Karnak, was just exaggerating a bit to make a point.
Either the tater is nerfed, or the Mossie is made of titanium, which is a viable option. Raked one a couple passes with 6 .50's with no result.
Mossie is made of wood, those are HE rounds. Could be very possible that the skin is too soft to make the rounds explode. Mossie were renowned at being able to take BIG hits and coming home IRL
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I don't think the problem lies with the damage models of these aircraft, but rather something to do with the tater. I fly the K4 almost exclusively, and I'm not getting the same results I've got against the same enemies with similar conditions. Somethings up.
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I don't think the problem lies with the damage models of these aircraft, but rather something to do with the tater. I fly the K4 almost exclusively, and I'm not getting the same results I've got against the same enemies with similar conditions. Somethings up.
mm hmm yup. Luftwhine is more like Luftwhatthef@#k.
Hitech :
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Luftwhiners:
Damn it!... He's using the Chewbacca defense!
Hitech:
Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a defending a code of a cartoon MK108 hit, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.
<G>
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Mossie is made of wood, those are HE rounds. Could be very possible that the skin is too soft to make the rounds explode. Mossie were renowned at being able to take BIG hits and coming home IRL
No, the skin of a Mossie was most definitely enough to cause the German rounds to explode. The difference is in the nature of plywood as compared to aluminum. Plywood doesn't tear, aluminum does, so all you get with an HE hit on the Mossie is damage caused by the immediate explosion but on aluminum the skin tears off in much larger sections. That isn't to say that the immediate area around the hit won't be catastrophic, just that wooden skins took battle damage better.
The same is true of the spar. The Mossie's wooden spar is physically much larger than an aluminum spar would be for the same strength factors, so an equal sized chunk taken out of it reduces the actual strength of the spar by less. In other words, 13mm out of a 200mm spar is a lower percentage than 13mm out of a 100mm spar.
Here is a photo of that Mosquito PR.Mk XVI that was hit by 2-4 30mm rounds from an Me262. You can see how the skin on the left horizontal stabilizer broke instead of tore:
(http://members.arstechnica.com/x/karnak/MossMk108Dam.jpg)
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No, the skin of a Mossie was most definitely enough to cause the German rounds to explode. The difference is in the nature of plywood as compared to aluminum. Plywood doesn't tear, aluminum does, so all you get with an HE hit on the Mossie is damage caused by the immediate explosion but on aluminum the skin tears off in much larger sections. That isn't to say that the immediate area around the hit won't be catastrophic, just that wooden skins took battle damage better.
The same is true of the spar. The Mossie's wooden spar is physically much larger than an aluminum spar would be for the same strength factors, so an equal sized chunk taken out of it reduces the actual strength of the spar by less. In other words, 13mm out of a 200mm spar is a lower percentage than 13mm out of a 100mm spar.
Here is a photo of that Mosquito PR.Mk XVI that was hit by 2-4 30mm rounds from an Me262. You can see how the skin on the left horizontal stabilizer broke instead of tore:
(http://members.arstechnica.com/x/karnak/MossMk108Dam.jpg)
Uhmmm...hijack?
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Uhmmm...hijack?
Kinda. I was trying to debunk some of the ideas posted in this thread since the target being shot was a Mosquito. Wrong ideas have ranged from "common sense says plywood would be more vulnerable" to "the wooden skin was too soft to cause the shells to explode" and I am just trying to give more accurate information.
HiTech said what he needs and that there was no intentional change to the 30mm or P-51.
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here are some more films of it happening
http://www.mediafire.com/file/my2j45mdt3e/dud-tator-clip.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/my2j45mdt3e/dud-tator-clip.ahf)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ynmwznymayi/dud-tator-clip2.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ynmwznymayi/dud-tator-clip2.ahf)
Also, I have started a thread where we could post your films of this issue to help HTC with it.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,290353.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,290353.0.html)
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Kinda. I was trying to debunk some of the ideas posted in this thread since the target being shot was a Mosquito. Wrong ideas have ranged from "common sense says plywood would be more vulnerable" to "the wooden skin was too soft to cause the shells to explode" and I am just trying to give more accurate information.
HiTech said what he needs and that there was no intentional change to the 30mm or P-51.
Your Mossie is fine, Hitech even said it was.
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No, the skin of a Mossie was most definitely enough to cause the German rounds to explode. The difference is in the nature of plywood as compared to aluminum. Plywood doesn't tear, aluminum does, so all you get with an HE hit on the Mossie is damage caused by the immediate explosion but on aluminum the skin tears off in much larger sections. That isn't to say that the immediate area around the hit won't be catastrophic, just that wooden skins took battle damage better.
The same is true of the spar. The Mossie's wooden spar is physically much larger than an aluminum spar would be for the same strength factors, so an equal sized chunk taken out of it reduces the actual strength of the spar by less. In other words, 13mm out of a 200mm spar is a lower percentage than 13mm out of a 100mm spar.
Here is a photo of that Mosquito PR.Mk XVI that was hit by 2-4 30mm rounds from an Me262. You can see how the skin on the left horizontal stabilizer broke instead of tore:
(http://members.arstechnica.com/x/karnak/MossMk108Dam.jpg)
If the mossie was as durable in combat as the info posted above. Why does Aces High's version fall apart instantaneously from a couple of 20mm rounds, but can take 4 30mm rounds?
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Screw that Karnak, I find no hijack at all. We are talking about the 30mm and you are giving us an example that goes straight to the point of it!!! You Rock Man!
Kinda. I was trying to debunk some of the ideas posted in this thread since the target being shot was a Mosquito. Wrong ideas have ranged from "common sense says plywood would be more vulnerable" to "the wooden skin was too soft to cause the shells to explode" and I am just trying to give more accurate information.
HiTech said what he needs and that there was no intentional change to the 30mm or P-51.
And Kazaa, please give us an example of 20's rocking it out but 30's doing little. Plus... Not sure if Karnak already pointed this out but there is a huge density difference between a Mossie and say.... almost any other plane in the game. Wood might be the reason that the Mossie has "cannon survivability" simply because some of those HE rounds on impact do not detonate due to the lack of target density.
Or.......... Am I crazy?
EDIT: Actually it seems Karnak will argue against my density theory......... :(
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Does anyone know if the same effect is for the 37mm and 40mm guns? If it is simply damage modelling and caused by the wooden frame, then the same problem should persist with the 20, 37 and 40mm cannons, correct?
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Actually now, that makes me think a different way. As Kazaa states, the 20's rip up the Mossie even though the 30's don't. Let's take the Mossie out and just look at the diameter. What if the larger round, at impact, causes a larger rupture of surface faster, thus not allowing the pressure detonator to ignite?
Does anyone know if the same effect is for the 37mm and 40mm guns? If it is simply damage modelling and caused by the wooden frame, then the same problem should persist with the 20, 37 and 40mm cannons, correct?
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Actually now, that makes me think a different way. As Kazaa states, the 20's rip up the Mossie even though the 30's don't. Let's take the Mossie out and just look at the diameter. What if the larger round, at impact, causes a larger rupture of surface faster, thus not allowing the pressure detonator to ignite?
i've been thinking since my last post...what if the 20mm is doing more damage because more rounds are hitting the target than the 30mm tater nut? (yes. i did just use a that 70s show quote :lol ) yeah the 30mm does huge damage but if only one hits the target at a certain speed and angle maybe it won't do the correct damage to rip a wing off compared to 3 20mm rounds that strike in the same time one 30mm does?
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The 30mm HE from the Mk108 had a thin shell on it designed for concussion damage with thin shrapnel for physical damage, like a hand grenade, very effective against light metal, not so effective against plywood.
The 20mm HE from the MG 151/20 had the same structural characteristics as the 30mm, but they were higher velocity. The higher velocity and faster firing rate of the MG151/20 makes it a bit more deadly just due to the amount of firepower you can put on target.
. If you guys have watched any vintage gun cam footage, you can see where the machine guns are fired more than the 20 or 30 mm, and the cannon rounds are pretty much the coup de grace. The real life destructive power from the combination of 13mm FMJ ball ammo and 20mm or 30mm HE rounds is pretty awesome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZOb0vx9y9I&feature=PlayList&p=E2C1F46F42449212&playnext_from=PL&index=5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZOb0vx9y9I&feature=PlayList&p=E2C1F46F42449212&playnext_from=PL&index=5)
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See link for some explanations.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,290353.0.html
Short version no problem with 30mm, new damage system problem, plus some isolated plane problems we will search all planes for the same issue.
And to short circuit next qustion/statement/luftwhine.
Because they normally take out a component in 1 hit, hence it is very noticeable when something is wrong.
HiTech
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See link for some explanations.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,290353.0.html
Short version no problem with 30mm, new damage system problem, plus some isolated plane problems we will search all planes for the same issue.
And to short circuit next qustion/statement/luftwhine.
Because they normally take out a component in 1 hit, hence it is very noticeable when something is wrong.
HiTech
Thanks for the update, and the fixes in works. :banana:
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Thanks for the update, and the fixes in works. :banana:
Grizz i need some more tater runs in the DA with ya :D :salute
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See link for some explanations.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,290353.0.html
Short version no problem with 30mm, new damage system problem, plus some isolated plane problems we will search all planes for the same issue.
And to short circuit next qustion/statement/luftwhine.
Because they normally take out a component in 1 hit, hence it is very noticeable when something is wrong.
HiTech
Cool. Thanks. :banana:
I'm happy you and Grizz are going to stay together too. I feel secure and will now leave the corner that I was cowering in with my teddy bear.
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:O Sunbat has been in the cooking sherry again. Someone lock that stuff up, it's messing with his mind.
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Your Mossie is fine, Hitech even said it was.
Never said otherwise. I am talking about 30mm here primarily. The target de jour in this thread happens to be Mossies due to the screenshots posted.
I am simply pointing things in that context. In the screenshots posting I can see no reason why that Mosquito survived. 30mm rounds are tremendously damaging and even the WWII aircraft most resistant to them, for its size, shouldn't take nearly that many rounds to kill.
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Awesome!
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If the mossie was as durable in combat as the info posted above. Why does Aces High's version fall apart instantaneously from a couple of 20mm rounds, but can take 4 30mm rounds?
Does anyone know if the same effect is for the 37mm and 40mm guns? If it is simply damage modelling and caused by the wooden frame, then the same problem should persist with the 20, 37 and 40mm cannons, correct?
Everyone is thinking in absolutes again. :(
A 30mm hits. It should destroy the aircraft every time. No
A Mosquito survives 4 30mm hits in real life. This happened all the time. No
A Mosquito in game fall apart instantaneously from a couple of 20mm rounds all the time. No
No wonder threads like this start. I mean, it happened once.....
wrongway
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Most of us are better at witch hunts than we are at thinking rationally. :D
Everyone is thinking in absolutes again. :(
A 30mm hits. It should destroy the aircraft every time. No
A Mosquito survives 4 30mm hits in real life. This happened all the time. No
A Mosquito in game fall apart instantaneously from a couple of 20mm rounds all the time. No
No wonder threads like this start. I mean, it happened once.....
wrongway
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:neener: @ teh 109s :D
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Everyone is thinking in absolutes again. :(
A 30mm hits. It should destroy the aircraft every time. No
A Mosquito survives 4 30mm hits in real life. This happened all the time. No
A Mosquito in game fall apart instantaneously from a couple of 20mm rounds all the time. No
No wonder threads like this start. I mean, it happened once.....
wrongway
I certainly don't think in absolutes. I also don't have my Mossie in AH fall about from a couple of 20mm hits, ever.
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Everyone is thinking in absolutes again. :(
A 30mm hits. It should destroy the aircraft every time. No
A Mosquito survives 4 30mm hits in real life. This happened all the time. No
A Mosquito in game fall apart instantaneously from a couple of 20mm rounds all the time. No
No wonder threads like this start. I mean, it happened once.....
wrongway
A few instances are ok; but as stated previously there has been a marked increase of no-or very limited damage when tater's are impacting their target. A few times would be ok as you stated; but as of recently it's happening on a regular basis.
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A few instances are ok; but as stated previously there has been a marked increase of no-or very limited damage when tater's are impacting their target. A few times would be ok as you stated; but as of recently it's happening on a regular basis.
What "regular basis"?
How many Taters have you fired, in total?
How many have hit?
How many have outright killed or disabled beyond airworthiness when you hit?
How many have only damaged what you hit"
How many did nothing?
Now, multiply your results by every other Tater shooter in all the arenas every day.
I want to see some numbers.
All I've seen so far is:
From personal experience I'd say it had been about 99% in the past that a tater either killed an engine or a critical component on a standard fighter. Now it's probably down to about 80%, where 20% of the taters are now complete duds, or taking off only a portion of the stabilizer. I have yet to make a tater shot that takes out the entire horiz stab.
Of course, I wouldn't consider "taking off only a portion of the stabilizer" a dud, and apparently that is being addressed.
80% one shot kills isn't reasonable?
wrongway
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AWwrgwy,
Enough. HTC has already said there are a couple of bugs in the damage models of a number of aircraft. It affects all weapons, but is more apparent on the 30mm and 37mm guns because of their tendency to get a kill with one hit.
These guys are not imagining it.
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All I've seen so far is:
Of course, I wouldn't consider "taking off only a portion of the stabilizer" a dud, and apparently that is being addressed.
80% one shot kills isn't reasonable?
Not if there is a bug. It's certainly more reasonable than your over usage of italics and bold however, I'll give you that.
The reason you haven't seen anything so far is because you haven't watched any of the films that have been posted. Here's another chance for you: This happened tonight, 1 of 3 duds of the night.
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/ki84 dud tater.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/ki84 dud tater.ahf)
(http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/ki tater.jpg)
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Not if there is a bug. It's certainly more reasonable than your over usage of italics and bold however, I'll give you that.
The reason you haven't seen anything so far is because you haven't watched any of the films that have been posted. Here's another chance for you: This happened tonight, 1 of 3 duds of the night.
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/ki84 dud tater.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/ki84 dud tater.ahf)
(http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/ki tater.jpg)
Reading this thread, one would infer that most Tater hits are not doing anything. I'm just trying to hint that this isn't the actual case.
As HiTech stated, there is a damage bug. Is it limited to damage from Taters or to aircraft irregardless of what is hitting it?
This thread is just in the same vein as the "I hit an M-3 and it didn't die" threads. Exaggeration of a "problem".
I've hit things with Taters that didn't outright kill it before, but a vast majority of hitting,and being hit, by Taters get the desired results.
At any rate, whine on.
wrongway
(Now with extra bold italics)
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This thread is just in the same vein as the "I hit an M-3 and it didn't die" threads. Exaggeration of a "problem".
In case you missed it, this "problem" being addressed:
Both these films showed a previously unknown problem with the target planes, not the ammo. It's been a long standing bug (we'll look at all other planes too) that will be addressed in the next patch.
Thanks,
- Sudz
<edit> PS The mossie had a separate, unrelated damage problem that has also been addressed.
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Reading this thread, one would infer that most Tater hits are not doing anything. I'm just trying to hint that this isn't the actual case.
As HiTech stated, there is a damage bug. Is it limited to damage from Taters or to aircraft irregardless of what is hitting it?
This thread is just in the same vein as the "I hit an M-3 and it didn't die" threads. Exaggeration of a "problem".
I've hit things with Taters that didn't outright kill it before, but a vast majority of hitting,and being hit, by Taters get the desired results.
At any rate, whine on.
wrongway
(Now with extra bold italics)
Dude, relax, there IS a problem, it will be fixed, people weren't imagining a problem. Let it go already, go fly your plane and have some fun already.
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In case you missed it, this "problem" being addressed:
No, I didn't miss it.
Reading this thread, one would infer that most Tater hits are not doing anything. I'm just trying to hint that this isn't the actual case.
As HiTech stated, there is a damage bug. Is it limited to damage from Taters or to aircraft irregardless of what is hitting it?
wrongway
(Now with extra bold italics)
Dude, relax, there IS a problem, it will be fixed, people weren't imagining a problem. Let it go already, go fly your plane and have some fun already.
Is it a problem with the 30mm though? So far, seems not, or at least not to the extent that has been implied in these threads.
wrongway
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I shot down a mossie today with taters, held down cannon fire and watched him go down, took a few more than normal but they will die. I don't see it as a huge problem, though. Small fix, if there needs to be one.
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You can still get kills with this weapon, but the reduced damage shortens the already short clip on 30mm cannons. Let's all hope this isn't an issue that slips through the cracks on the next patch.
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Is it a problem with the 30mm though? So far, seems not, or at least not to the extent that has been implied in these threads.
No, but when you compare a tater dud versus the impact of a 50cal/20mm dud, it's significance is on the magnitude of 15 times greater, when you compare a clip of 65 taters versus 1000 MG. Also, tatering deals with setting up instantaneous gun solutions for one chance at a tater solution. It's not the same as a lag pursuit gun solution where a 20mm or 50cal dud will be of a fractionated significance. So yes, this bug affects 30mm and 37mm's more than any other gun, by a considerable margin.
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Both these films showed a previously unknown problem with the target planes, not the ammo. It's been a long standing bug (we'll look at all other planes too) that will be addressed in the next patch.
Thanks,
- Sudz
<edit> PS The mossie had a separate, unrelated damage problem that has also been addressed.
:)
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30mm does not hit fifteen times as hard as a 20mm.
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30mm does not hit fifteen times as hard as a 20mm.
1000/15=~65........
3 cheers for basic math functions...
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Actually, basic math has nothing on the physics (ballistics, Kinetic energy, wind resistance) :D
If someone knows the mass of a 20mm bullet and a 30mm bullet, you could see how KE would increase with the mass of the bullet. Also, the 30mm could hold more explosives.
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T. Williams lists the chemical power as 246 for 151/20 (MGs) and 580 for MK108 (MGs) and 200 for Hisso (HE).
-C+
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No, but when you compare a tater dud versus the impact of a 50cal/20mm dud, it's significance is on the magnitude of 15 times greater, when you compare a clip of 65 taters versus 1000 MG. Also, tatering deals with setting up instantaneous gun solutions for one chance at a tater solution. It's not the same as a lag pursuit gun solution where a 20mm or 50cal dud will be of a fractionated significance. So yes, this bug affects 30mm and 37mm's more than any other gun, by a considerable margin.
owned? :devil
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No, but when you compare a tater dud versus the impact of a 50cal/20mm dud, it's significance is on the magnitude of 15 times greater, when you compare a clip of 65 taters versus 1000 MG. Also, tatering deals with setting up instantaneous gun solutions for one chance at a tater solution. It's not the same as a lag pursuit gun solution where a 20mm or 50cal dud will be of a fractionated significance. So yes, this bug affects 30mm and 37mm's more than any other gun, by a considerable margin.
You cant argue with the best 30mm shooter in the game....just cant
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So yes, this bug affects 30mm and 37mm's more than any other gun, by a considerable margin.
It in no way effects any round more then any other. In fact one could argue using your logic that it effects faster ammo with faster fire rates because you are effect xxx times as often to have the issue vs a slow firing 30mm.
But it is easier to detect the problem with the 30.
HiTech
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It in no way effects any round more then any other. In fact one could argue using your logic that it effects faster ammo with faster fire rates because you are effect xxx times as often to have the issue vs a slow firing 30mm.
But it is easier to detect the problem with the 30.
HiTech
I used the incorrect verb. It impacts those two guns more than any other. Since they don't have lots of ammo, and proper gun solutions with them are close, and instantaneous, duds devalue their lethality significantly in a given run. If you compare that to a 50 caliber firing aircraft that is working for a lag pursuit continuous gun solution, a couple duds mixed in to 20 square hits with a 50 caliber aren't going to make more than a negligible difference in lethality.
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1000/15=~65........
3 cheers for basic math functions...
That is meaningless.
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It in no way effects any round more then any other. In fact one could argue using your logic that it effects faster ammo with faster fire rates because you are effect xxx times as often to have the issue vs a slow firing 30mm.
But it is easier to detect the problem with the 30.
HiTech
Easier to miss too :aok
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Actually, basic math has nothing on the physics (ballistics, Kinetic energy, wind resistance) :D
If someone knows the mass of a 20mm bullet and a 30mm bullet, you could see how KE would increase with the mass of the bullet. Also, the 30mm could hold more explosives.
Here grizz is referring to the amount of ammo of a MG compared to the 30mm.
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Finally.
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I was talking about how you simply divided 65 into 1000 and got 15. This does not mean the gun is more powerful, it means that the gun has 15x the amount of ammo. I was talking about actual POWER, not number of rounds.
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I was talking about how you simply divided 65 into 1000 and got 15. This does not mean the gun is more powerful, it means that the gun has 15x the amount of ammo. I was talking about actual POWER, not number of rounds.
That was my only point. A few 'duds' mixed into a 1000 round clip that fires lag pursuit gun solutions is much less significant than tater 'duds' in a 65 round clip firing instantaneous gun solutions where you will most likely only have one tater connection due to ROF and angle of attack. (Paranthesis used on duds since Hitech has said it is in fact a target plane problem)
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That was my only point. A few 'duds' mixed into a 1000 round clip that fires lag pursuit gun solutions is much less significant than tater 'duds' in a 65 round clip firing instantaneous gun solutions where you will most likely only have one tater connection due to ROF and angle of attack. (Paranthesis used on duds since Hitech has said it is in fact a target plane problem)
Gotcha now :aok
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So? Is the 30mm nerfed or do we simply have a more accurate damage model? A few days ago I flew the K4 and got nothing but assists at point blank range fireing only the 30mm.
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So? Is the 30mm nerfed or do we simply have a more accurate damage model? A few days ago I flew the K4 and got nothing but assists at point blank range fireing only the 30mm.
That has to do with the damage model. Even though you tatered someone, someone else had done more damage prior. Solution? Fly around less green. :aok
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That was my only point. A few 'duds' mixed into a 1000 round clip that fires lag pursuit gun solutions is much less significant than tater 'duds' in a 65 round clip firing instantaneous gun solutions where you will most likely only have one tater connection due to ROF and angle of attack. (Paranthesis used on duds since Hitech has said it is in fact a target plane problem)
Your assessment again is incorrect because you are ignoring fire rates. You are trying to argue that 2 misses with 30 mm vs 2 misses with 50 cals, makes the 30 mm suffer more. While this statement is correct it is not the real situation.
Given any 3 sec burst the same % of rounds would be effected under both systems. And hence the killing power per sec has been reduced by the same percentage with each plane.
The same % of ammo has been wasted by each plane.
Your argument is equivalent to saying the p51 is effected more, because more rounds of the 51 are "duds".
And the reason im arguing this point is because of this.
Tell us luftwhiners something isn't wrong after seeing those screen shots.
You again are trying to show how the Luftwaffe are being screwed as compared to all other planes. And this just is not the case. It simply is a bug that effects everyone.
HiTech
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Hitech just to end my confusion, do you mean a single 50 cal vs single 30mm, or 6 50cals (pony) vs 1 30mm (K4)?
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Spikes.
I'm talking fire rate vs fire rate, if that is 6 to 1 then yes.
HiTech
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Yes you are right as far as it all being relative to the chance of a dud versus ammo loads. However the point I am trying to make that maybe I am not being clear about is how the 'duds' affect 30mm planes more because of the method of properly firing in a tater plane.
A proper 50 caliber gun solution (lag pursuit) will yield continuous guns where a barrage of bullets will saw a plane in half. It might be as many as 10 hit sprites in a centralized location to make a part fail. When you work with this gun solution, a couple duds mixed in don't really make a difference, as you simply fire on target until the wing saws off. No big deal if it takes an extra .5 seconds.
The tater is different though, as you work for crossing shots. With these angles of attack you are working a gun solution where the enemy plane will zip by your cockpit at a very high rate of relative speed. Firing a barrage of taters out in front of his flight path will usually only yield one tater connection if you are lucky, due to the slower rate of fire and your enemy's relative crossing speed. So if you fire 5-7 taters out in front, and the one tater that is to hit him is a dud, not only do you lose 10% of your ammo, but you also missed out on the only gun solution you had there. There's no makeups once you see it is a dud, it's too late to fire again, he's past you.
I know this explanation might run somewhere on the KRUSTY scale with you, but I'd hope it makes sense after this explanation.
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I think I understand you now, Grizz. What you are saying is that you can hit an enemy maybe once with a 30 mm if you lead them, and any number of times with a more rapid-firing weapon? So therefore the impact that the smaller bullets in theory, does more damage than the single larger bullet? If so, I can back up this claim. Today I shot down a 110 in a Hurri mk1. (.303's) it took 20 bullets to one wing root but the thing went down soon enough. I then upped a 109K-4 and used nothing but 30mm cannon (also on a 110). I led the planes both times, and using the 30 mm cannon, I had less chance to hit the plane through the slower firing 30mm. I hit the wing twice out of about 7 bullets (110 went down). This in perspective. The .303 MG weren't dented as badly with 20 shots as the 30 mm was with the 7. But that duds will cause that dent to become even more severe?
Yes?
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Yes you are right as far as it all being relative to the chance of a dud versus ammo loads. However the point I am trying to make that maybe I am not being clear about is how the 'duds' affect 30mm planes more because of the method of properly firing in a tater plane.
A proper 50 caliber gun solution (lag pursuit) will yield continuous guns where a barrage of bullets will saw a plane in half. It might be as many as 10 hit sprites in a centralized location to make a part fail. When you work with this gun solution, a couple duds mixed in don't really make a difference, as you simply fire on target until the wing saws off. No big deal if it takes an extra .5 seconds.
The tater is different though, as you work for crossing shots. With these angles of attack you are working a gun solution where the enemy plane will zip by your cockpit at a very high rate of relative speed. Firing a barrage of taters out in front of his flight path will usually only yield one tater connection if you are lucky, due to the slower rate of fire and your enemy's relative crossing speed. So if you fire 5-7 taters out in front, and the one tater that is to hit him is a dud, not only do you lose 10% of your ammo, but you also missed out on the only gun solution you had there. There's no makeups once you see it is a dud, it's too late to fire again, he's past you.
I know this explanation might run somewhere on the KRUSTY scale with you, but I'd hope it makes sense after this explanation.
You miss the point 1 out 7 times you would not get the kill with taters in your setup.
You would also not get the kill 1 out of 7 times with the 50 cals, in fact I could set up a case where if 1 out of 7 was duds the 30 would get 6 out of 7 kills in the same setups, where the 1 dud would make the 50 Cals never get a kill in any of the 7 planes.
HiTech
HiTech
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I don't think HiTech is getting the idea that with only 65 rounds of ammunition available having to use 10% to get a kill has a more adverse effect on it's fighting ability than having to use 10% of 2000 rounds.
3 second burst Mk108 30mm at 650 rpm = 32.5 rounds out of 65 available - 50%
3 second burst M2 .50 cal at 850 rpm= 42.5 x6 = 255 out of 1880 available - 13.56% <--- 6 gun P-51D
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You would also not get the kill 1 out of 7 times with the 50 cals, in fact I could set up a case where if 1 out of 7 was duds the 30 would get 6 out of 7 kills in the same setups, where the 1 dud would make the 50 Cals never get a kill in any of the 7 planes.
HiTech
Not really, because the gun solution that you work in a 50 caliber aircraft is lag pursuit, essentially you fire until you see a critical component fall off of your bad guy's airplane. So if your stream is dud free, then the wing might fall off slightly sooner before you release the trigger. Or, if it is dud rich, you will have to hold down the trigger slightly longer until the wing falls off. Either way, you are in control of when the bad guy dies.
Proper 30mm aiming does not have this luxury. With the 30mm, you put all your eggs into "One Tater Basket". If your tater is a dud, you can't correct it, it's too late, you have to set up another shot, which takes more time, and more ammo, which is very limited to begin with.
I think the gap that stands between our ideas, is my assumption that a 50 caliber a/c and a 30mm a/c set up different angles for gun solutions.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter, since you guys are fixing it. So even if I am delusional in my perception that german iron is affected more greatly, I won't have to luftwhine and post films anymore. :D
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Not really, because the gun solution that you work in a 50 caliber aircraft is lag pursuit, essentially you fire until you see a critical component fall off of your bad guy's airplane. So if your stream is dud free, then the wing might fall off slightly sooner before you release the trigger. Or, if it is dud rich, you will have to hold down the trigger slightly longer until the wing falls off. Either way, you are in control of when the bad guy dies.
Proper 30mm aiming does not have this luxury. With the 30mm, you put all your eggs into "One Tater Basket". If your tater is a dud, you can't correct it, it's too late, you have to set up another shot, which takes more time, and more ammo, which is very limited to begin with.
I think the gap that stands between our ideas, is my assumption that a 50 caliber a/c and a 30mm a/c set up different angles for gun solutions.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter, since you guys are fixing it. So even if I am delusional in my perception that german iron is affected more greatly, I won't have to luftwhine and post films anymore. :D
i agree with you 100%. but i think you should just give up :aok
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i agree with you 100%. but i think you should just give up :aok
I've made my points. Now I just want to know how many KRUSTYs Hitech thinks my presentation deserves. :lol
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Not really, because the gun solution that you work in a 50 caliber aircraft is lag pursuit, essentially you fire until you see a critical component fall off of your bad guy's airplane.
But not every gun solution is a lag pursuit. Plenty of times I've had crossing shots where a few "duds" would may have been the coup de grace to a major part, or would have killed the pilot. While the effect is not as visible in such planes, it is there.
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But not every gun solution is a lag pursuit. Plenty of times I've had crossing shots where a few "duds" would may have been the coup de grace to a major part, or would have killed the pilot. While the effect is not as visible in such planes, it is there.
Exceptions to the norm, just as some tater gun solutions are lag pursuit.
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I don't think HiTech is getting the idea that with only 65 rounds of ammunition available having to use 10% to get a kill has a more adverse effect on it's fighting ability than having to use 10% of 2000 rounds.
3 second burst Mk108 30mm at 650 rpm = 32.5 rounds out of 65 available - 50%
3 second burst M2 .50 cal at 850 rpm= 42.5 x6 = 255 out of 1880 available - 13.56% <--- 6 gun P-51D
What Grizz is trying to say is even simpler than that.
Say if 10% of rounds are "duds" then one in ten available killing opportunites, the one shot tater kill, would not work.
With .50s in the same situation, say you actually hit with 100 rounds when you fire, 10 .50 cal rounds would be "duds". This would really have little if any affect on a kill with .50s.
However, since it is a damage model issue and not a "dud" issue, the point is moot.
wrongway
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I don't think HiTech is getting the idea that with only 65 rounds of ammunition available having to use 10% to get a kill has a more adverse effect on it's fighting ability than having to use 10% of 2000 rounds.
3 second burst Mk108 30mm at 650 rpm = 32.5 rounds out of 65 available - 50%
3 second burst M2 .50 cal at 850 rpm= 42.5 x6 = 255 out of 1880 available - 13.56% <--- 6 gun P-51D
Losing 10% effects the fighting ability of both equally. I.E. they loose 10% of there killing power. Your 50 and 13 % comparison is really showing nothing more then a p51 has more fire time then the mk108. This is true with our without a bug.
HiTech
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It's not the total ammo, it's the one which hits.
In case of German 30mm, a single round is often the only hit, in case of a dud, you'd get 100% failure.
With 50cal you'll hit often with few hundred rounds, duds would represent small percentage.
That's what it is...
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which is what i said over a year ago in another 30mm whine thread, its the same for everyone but more noticable on 30mm. :old:
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its the same for everyone but more noticable on 30mm. :old:
I'll retort with another luftwhine.
We have to look at the whole platform, not only at weapons package.
As a platform, K4 for example, is very different than f4u. You have to fly it differently and you take different shots, you aim differently too.
In my case (before the break) my hit percentage in tater was about 30 percent. In F4U with standard 6x50cals was roughly 15 percent.
That's ratio of 2:1.
So, if you have some damage bug, your K4 would be affected twice as much as your F4U, practically, your fire power would be only half of that of F4U.
In conclusion, math often can't give you the whole picture, very often you have to look at more abstract things, intangibles, etc...
That's what it is...
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That's what it is...
I'd say - It is what it is...... :neener:
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I'll retort with another luftwhine.
We have to look at the whole platform, not only at weapons package.
As a platform, K4 for example, is very different than f4u. You have to fly it differently and you take different shots, you aim differently too.
In my case (before the break) my hit percentage in tater was about 30 percent. In F4U with standard 6x50cals was roughly 15 percent.
That's ratio of 2:1.
So, if you have some damage bug, your K4 would be affected twice as much as your F4U, practically, your fire power would be only half of that of F4U.
In conclusion, math often can't give you the whole picture, very often you have to look at more abstract things, intangibles, etc...
That's what it is...
ROFLMAO.
In conclusion, math often can't give you the whole picture.
You may wish to apply CORRECT math to your theory before making this statement.
because
That's ratio of 2:1.
So, if you have some damage bug, your K4 would be affected twice as much as your F4U, practically, your fire power would be only half of that of F4U.
Makes absolutely no since, it is equivalent to saying my car cost twice as much as yours, there for it goes twice as fast.
I.E. you have shown no correlation between hit ratio's and and how each is effected you simply state better hit ratios are effected more then lower hit ratios with out given any reason what so ever why.
HiTech
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I'd say - It is what it is...... :neener:
... and is not the same for everyone.
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Losing 10% effects the fighting ability of both equally. I.E. they loose 10% of there killing power. Your 50 and 13 % comparison is really showing nothing more then a p51 has more fire time then the mk108. This is true with our without a bug.
HiTech
I put those 3 second burst calculations in there as a response to this:
Given any 3 sec burst the same % of rounds would be effected under both systems. And hence the killing power per sec has been reduced by the same percentage with each plane.
The same % of ammo has been wasted by each plane
Clearly erroneous due to rate of fire, number of weapons and available ammunition but, not a big deal.
If the 30mm had the same ammo capacity as the .50 cals, duds wouldn't be noticed and there probably wouldn't be any need for explosive projectiles.
I've been wondering if that bug is affecting the 20mm as well. Doesn't appear to be but then it's not often you fire just 1 or 2 rounds of 20mm.
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You may wish to apply CORRECT math to your theory before making this statement.
Oh my, 30:15 = 2:1
because
Makes absolutely no since, it is equivalent to saying my car cost twice as much as yours, there for it goes twice as fast.
Nope, more like if I put in twice the fuel I'll go twice as far.
I.E. you have shown no correlation between hit ratio's and and how each is effected you simply state better hit ratios are effected more then lower hit ratios with out given any reason what so ever why.
You gave the reason, you've said all weapons are affected equally by the bug. So yeah, if that's true, better hit ratios will be affected more.
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I've been wondering if that bug is affecting the 20mm as well. Doesn't appear to be but then it's not often you fire just 1 or 2 rounds of 20mm.
It should affect the 20mm as well since the bug isn't with the ammo type or round but with the damage model. It would also affect thrown rocks the same too if we had thrown rocks.
wrongway
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Oh my, 30:15 = 2:1
Nope, more like if I put in twice the fuel I'll go twice as far.
You gave the reason, you've said all weapons are affected equally by the bug. So yeah, if that's true, better hit ratios will be affected more.
I agree with your analogy, but 1 problem does MORE me quantity or does MORE me percentage.
Does more mean number of bullets hit or does more me lethality.
Or does more mean # of kills or does more mean kill ratio?
HiTech
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It would also affect thrown rocks the same too if we had thrown rocks.
wrongway
Hmmmm...I think that's what I've been doing lately. Little tiny rocks too.
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I can't believe this thread is still going, :x :bolt: ROTFLMAO
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Does more mean number of bullets hit or does more me lethality.
Or does more mean # of kills or does more mean kill ratio?
percentage of rounds doing no damage.
Now I don't know how frequently (or randomly) that damage bug occurs, but it's very probably that the more rounds you fire, the closer your dud rate is to overall average.
So, in that case, the longer you fly, the closer end result would be between, lets say 30mm and 50cals.
On the other hand, for the smaller sample, difference would be larger.
But if damage/no damage occurs randomly, then all bets are off. But only you would know that, so I'm not going into that.
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percentage of rounds doing no damage.
Now I don't know how frequently (or randomly) that damage bug occurs, but it's very probably that the more rounds you fire, the closer your dud rate is to overall average.
So, in that case, the longer you fly, the closer end result would be between, lets say 30mm and 50cals.
On the other hand, for the smaller sample, difference would be larger.
But if damage/no damage occurs randomly, then all bets are off. But only you would know that, so I'm not going into that.
Does more mean percentage total or percentage change?
HiTech
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What? So it has not my computer all this time? :O
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I just want to know how grizz is making deflection shots with .50s in lag pursuit. Ive experienced your deadly 30mm aim before, but thats some kind of .50 magic right there :D
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Does more mean percentage total or percentage change?
Sorry, I just looked at correct "More"
We are looking at that one, right?
You gave the reason, you've said all weapons are affected equally by the bug. So yeah, if that's true, better hit ratios will be affected more.
That would mean percentage of total, ie case 1 has twice as many (on target) duds
case 1:
100 rounds fired. 30 hits. 6 duds
case 2
100 rounds fired. 15 hits. 3 duds.
But with diff rounds we get diff picture (in some cases)
Scenario
Small samples (simplified):
lets say 100 50cals equals 1 30mm (and also takes same amount to kill target ie 100x50cal rounds or 1x30mm)
lets say dud percentage is 10 in both types of ammo
50 cals
I fire 100 rounds at target, 90 do damage. I have to fire 10 more rounds, no damage. I fire 10 more. One dud. Fire 1 more. Target killed. Had to fire 121% of rounds
30mm A
I fire 1 round, no kill, I have to fire 1 more round. Target killed. Had to fire 200% rounds
Now if both types would be fired equal amount that would average out over long period of time (same dud percentage)
But 30mm is more lethal, it will always be fired less than 50cal. and deviation from average (among individuals) will always be more (Law of Probability).
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2bighorn , Have you factored in fire rates?
2bighorn, Obviously you understand the stats no problem.
But we are now far off the original premise that 30 mm are effected more then other weapons.
while that premise can be true depending on the definitions.
The statement the 50 cal is effected more then the 30 mm , can be equally true depending on the definitions.
And my point of jumping in this is just to point out that even after finding and describing the bug, some players still wish to show they are the victims more then others. My guess will be in about a month they still will wish to claim there is a bug with the 30 mm, but all other rounds are not effected.
HiTech
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I don't care what you say, something is wrong with my Volkov 23mm rounds............ :lol
And my point of jumping in this is just to point out that even after finding and describing the bug, some players still wish to show they are the victims more then others.
HiTech
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2bighorn , Have you factored in fire rates?
No, I didn't.
But we are now far off the original premise that 30 mm are effected more then other weapons.
while that premise can be true depending on the definitions.
The statement the 50 cal is effected more then the 30 mm , can be equally true depending on the definitions.
Agree
And my point of jumping in this is just to point out that even after finding and describing the bug, some players still wish to show they are the victims more then others. My guess will be in about a month they still will wish to claim there is a bug with the 30 mm, but all other rounds are not effected.
Hehe, very true
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in about a month
HiTech
WHat else might we be getting? :noid
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would you agree that it is more noticeable with a 30mm? I seem to notice it a lot more with it since I fire a round...it hits...and plane flies off. Pretty darn noticeable. I fire 100 rounds of 50 cal in a plane...75 of them may do damage...little smoke, flap come off...whatever....but I see something happen to the plane...and expect something to happen to the plane. 30mm landing...i expect something to happen as well...then it doesnt. I notice that.
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My guess will be in about a month they still will wish to claim there is a bug with the 30 mm, but all other rounds are not effected.
Normally I would agree with your guess. However, in this case those who were complaining are some of the most "successful" players in the game and are not typically found criticizing and whining about this game but rather defending it on this BBS.
They made a simple observation that actually revealed a small bug. Why the bitterness?
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My guess will be in about a month they still will wish to claim there is a bug with the 30 mm, but all other rounds are not effected.
You can weed out the true luftwhiners from the bug spotters quite easily then.
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Happy day, fixed :)
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I dunno...I took a tater up the tailpipe a few nights ago in a spit8 and bla-boom.
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I took a tater up the tailpipe a few nights ago
:huh
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Wasn't the probelm the tater duds and the Mossie damage system? Where does the spit 8 getting its lunch eaten come into the equation? You blew up because a tater hit you, yeah, they do that...
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I dunno...I took a tater up the tailpipe a few nights ago in a spit8 and bla-boom.
This has been fixed for quite some time now.
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This has been fixed for quite some time now.
"Quite some time" being almost a week now....
:x
wrongway
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"Quite some time" being almost a week now....
:x
wrongway
Uhm...correct.
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They definitely fixed the tater bug, I can attest to that. :aok
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Can attest to it too, being on the receiving end of your 262 taters last night
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My taters work fine and dandy, no problems... blow a wing off as good as ever.
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My taters work fine and dandy, no problems... blow a wing off as good as ever.
Yes, we have established that this has been corrected.
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They definitely fixed the tater bug, I can attest to that. :aok
I was adding to this, thank you
Yes, we have established that this has been corrected.
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You know what I think, I think they fixed the tator bug.
:banana:
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You know what I think, I think they fixed the tater bug.
:banana:
Fixed to comply with the luftwheeniewhiny standards. :cheers:
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Fixed to comply with the luftwheeniewhiny standards. :cheers:
doh :uhoh
Thanks :aok
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My taters have been working better. Did they fix it?
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There never has been any bug with the taters.
But the bug causing some planes not to take damage in certain places is fixed.
HiTech
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There never has been any bug with the taters.
But the bug causing some planes not to take damage in certain places is fixed.
HiTech
I want to thank you for being a company that finds and fixes these things so quickly. :salute
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There never has been any bug with the taters.
But the bug causing some planes not to take damage in certain places is fixed.
HiTech
Thanks for fixing the 'Tater Bug'. :angel:
:bolt: