Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: onerka on August 09, 2010, 12:49:31 PM
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There have been a number of posts about flying all the available aircraft in the WWI arena...though all = 4, there is some diversity. The point of most of those posts is that folks tend to fly the DR because it is generally the most successful plane in the arena. It is not easy to compete in the other fm's, though some people do with some measure of success. Each of the fm's is pretty different from the others. The gist of most of the posts is that if everyone stays in the DR, then everyone will have to stay in the DR and there will be little diversity - and those liking the other planes for historic reasons or whatever, will generally always be at a disadvantage to a group of DR's.
A few pilots try to fly all the planes...most do not. That is of course everyone's choice, and not a problem from here.
I have had two nights more or less troubled by comments when flying an F2B, and using the tail gun. Don't use it a lot and don't fly to get set up to use it, but then, there is nothing wrong if someone does use it as that plane did have that gun and gunner. If you get behind the F2B...simple, duck away and you'll be fine.
Interesting that these comments came from several of the highest ranked pilots while flying their DR...
I have a bias. Have flown WWI sims for a lot of years. Have never thought folks should dictate a special morality in the arena, particularly if that "rule" particularly benefited their view of things and was not based on any historic perspective or any sort of "gaming" the game. For instance, the F2B has a tail gun. In real times it had a tail gun. The gun had ammunition and I'm pretty sure it's intend was to protect the plane.
We are most of us in the WWI arena older guys, way past enjoying hassles while we are having a good time. So...rather than ruin a good night in the arena with a derogatory comment about shooting the tail gun on an F2B made toward a pilot who has almost equal time in each of the 4 planes...here is a much better place to get it out.
Why is this a problem? Why do you feel compelled to say negative stuff...
One
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They bit on that hook and you reeled them in. They should be civil, or keep their yappers shut. Fly on my friend! :aok
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One of the things I eventually learned - dont doggedly follow the F2B - it took some time (I is not the smart)
Dont worry about em, if they complain, your doing something right.
Wurzel
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I hear you onerka. The best you can do is ignore it.
As far as the Dr1 goes we just have to suffer the little tie fighter beast until they either FIX the F1s structural weakness or add in better faster more powerful rides to nullify the Dr1 in its true context.
AFAIC, I cant tell you emphatically enough what a fun killer it is for me to tangle with a Dr1 or D7 in my F1 and to actually keep up with them and manage come close to turning the tables only to have the damned wings peel off my F1. To add insult to injury the opponent gets the kill after I suffer the indignity of having to ride the useless carcass all the way to the ground.
I really feel there is a great possibility there with WW1.
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I try to be nice about it (Over text/voice anyways :P ) but I do try to steer people away from using the gun in the way they use it. I fly the F2 almost exclusively since day 1 of WWI (started using D7 a little lately) but I try not to use the gunner in the way most use it for a few reasons.
1) I suck at aiming it (how you people get good I'll never know).
2) We all like to have fun right? Right. Where's the fun for others to fight an F2 cruising along at 135mph shooting his tail gun at every passerby? This is where I try to get people to not use the gunner and show them the fun of fighting with the plane. Win-win assuming they aren't absolutely stubborn about it and never want to leave that gunner.
3) Where's the fun (honestly) in flying straight shooting at a con on your 6 when one simple act of going under you will get you killed over and over? I don't mind dieing, but with as often/easily as the gunner people die it's gotta be old right? (Maybe not, how would I now)
4) That blasted gun is always the first thing to get damaged so even if I tried to use it I can't.
Now I can understand using the gunner to defend yourself in uneven odds, or where you are missing parts, or even if you make some maneuvers take a few shots in gunner while in a loop or something then go back to fighting. The people who "whine" about gunners tend to be whining about the ones who don't do anything but up and jump into every fight with some very poor ho-merges then go into gunning over and over even if the fight was already 3v1 in their favor.
Honestly I don't mind gunner most times because they never realize I can go below/behind them and use my own gunner on them. It's the people flying 2K above everyone else and jumping into 1v1s (or anything over 1v1 in their favor) and taking HO-shots every single merge that get me a bit annoyed. But honestly, we'll never get rid of things we don't like so what do we do? Whine, some more then others.
But on the other hand, I can understand gunners, maybe they can't fly as well and this is their way of having fun. I just try to get them to see the other side of the fun. :)
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X dog fights the f2b like no other. He will smack down a Camule 1v1. He will make your Dr1 stall like a beotch. He eats D7's like jelly beans.... And he will loop an opposing f2b in to the ground.... Tail gunning can get a little gamey at times. Truly depends on the guy behind the stick. :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :cheers: :rock :salute :salute
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Now, is tailgunning in a F2B totally gamey if you have a gunner riding along?
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Now, is tailgunning in a F2B totally gamey if you have a gunner riding along?
No .... it's really funny watching the tail gunner trying to shoot you in a hard loop... gamey if they get the kill cause you augered laffin!
Gamey to me is, the guy starts to dogfight the f2b... gets u in a hard loop then jumps in back seat at the bottom of his loop and face shoots you as his plane insta levels..... having a guy in back seat as gunner I'm all for! Makes fro a great fight!
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no more gamey that only attacking when you have a sure kill, but then it is called tactics.
Semp
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meh...I enjoy shooting down F2bs as much as any other plane. It can be a real challenge if the guy(s) are any good. Also, I enjoy flying them, and GASP!!!!! manning the gun.
The only problem I have with the rear gun is when you bring a gunner along he can rotate the gun through my pilot view, through my virtual head. Can be very discombobulating.
Camel F1
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If they are dumb enough to attack you from high or level astern and fly a straight path to you they deserve a face full of lead.
The F2B can be a tough opponent if flown well, and if there are two people in it who know what they are doing look out.
Best thing I can suggest is the (.squelch players name) command. Works like a charm. :aok
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There really not that hard to shoot down. Even with a good stick flying it. Its a great plane to up and out fly peeps in other planes. To me it's about the fight .... not so much the kill... :joystick:
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From what I've seen over the few months WW1 has been around the F2B is a plane for people who have no grasp of the angles and geometry of a fight(or they're afraid to show it). From what I remember there's only 1 or 2 F2B pilots who actually fly acceptable angles, I think Xcelsior is one of them. An aggressive dogfighting stick in an F2 can give me some trouble in a D7 while in a turnfight, in a flat turn an F2 will actually out turn a D7 and is faster. Generally speaking though, a typical fight vs. an F2B in my D7 consists of them coming in head on guns blazing and then switching to the rear gun firing away as I pass. And they continue doing this for about 5 mins until they get bored, run out of ammo or make a silly mistake. Then after 5 mins of head on attacks, rear gun luck shots and running away they say good fight!LOL.
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in a flat turn an F2 will actually out turn a D7 and is faster.
Once in a flat turn merry go round with a F2 how would the D7 then get out of that flat turn cycle and get guns on the F2b?
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If you turn a few circles with the F2 without realizing it or taking action you should be toast if the F2 is a good shot. However, if you catch it right away you can just make a hard turn out of it if you're on the deck. Lets say you get into a counter clockwise turn, if you make a sharp turn to the right early enough(before you go even one circle around) you shouldn't have much of a problem. If you wait after a full circle and then turn sharp right the F2(or whatever you're fighting really) will get a quick snap shot, it just depends on whether or not he can hit it. As far as the D7 getting guns on the F2, that varies with every fight, there's really no one magical move after you get out of the flat turn. One thing to remember though is that the F2, from my experiences flying it, has a terrible roll rate.
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If you turn a few circles with the F2 without realizing it or taking action you should be toast if the F2 is a good shot. However, if you catch it right away you can just make a hard turn out of it if you're on the deck. Lets say you get into a counter clockwise turn, if you make a sharp turn to the right early enough(before you go even one circle around) you shouldn't have much of a problem. If you wait after a full circle and then turn sharp right the F2(or whatever you're fighting really) will get a quick snap shot, it just depends on whether or not he can hit it. As far as the D7 getting guns on the F2, that varies with every fight, there's really no one magical move after you get out of the flat turn. One thing to remember though is that the F2, from my experiences flying it, has a terrible roll rate.
Also, the D7 flips down hill from the top of a zoom very quickly, which is very helpful if you have started with more E than the F2
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"One thing to remember though is that the F2, from my experiences flying it, has a terrible roll rate."
That is the one downfall to the F2. The problem is most people don't realize that if the F2 has anymore then 80mph of speed it can nose up and slightly stall it over very quickly to the direction of the new turn and thus getting back on the enemies tail. That also works if the F2 keeps enough E and needs to out-turn a Dr1, go vertical and stall it over o get a very short window to shoot but it also allows you to gain enough E to turn with the Dr1 for a short time (F2 will win vs a Dr1 in a turn with E).
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And....the F2B has only a single gun facing forward. Not nearly as lethal as the two guns on every other plane facing you or on your 6. Unless you have a very good connect (ammo), the accumulated damage of that one gun in a relatively even fight is real easy to calculate...one half.
It is hard to quickly bring the plane out of a severe turn to bring the gun to bear on a con.
But, all things said, it is fun to fly the plane. It can do well in a turn fight or a fur ball. It does absorb a lot of damage. Etc.
For that matter each of the fm's is fun to fly.
One
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I will never understand how someone can complain about being shot down by a fixed gun or a tail gun. You can FLY anywhere you like......but a fixed gun is a threat?
It's called 'combat' because the idea is to take out the enemy. By what ever means available. That tail gun is available so you better not get in the gunsite.
Never did anyone say; "You know what Hans, flying in a huge circus and bouncing lone recon planes is a bit unfair, Ya? Lets fly alone and only engage when it is a fair fight."
Another point, if I may. A two seater caught alone by enemy fighters in WWI would have run for it's life. This may not always be true with a plane as good as the bristol, but in general a two seater would have run home spraying it's tail gun all the way. WWI air combat was a game of cat and mouse, not gladiator and gladiator, for the most part.
Final point. If the guy flying a bristol thinks the tail gun and flying level is the best move the F2 can do, you're lucky. Because with someone like 1701E on your tail you would be wish they were using the tail gun and running.
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Several months ago.........probably more like six months ago.........that evil Meandog was killing everyone...
the nerve of that guy. So I sat on the runway and asked everyone in my country if they wanted to
do a sortie in the F2b. Before long there were six of us rolling in F2b's. Once all of us were up we circled around the
field until we could form up into a lose formation.
I would have liked to have seen Meandog's face when the icons came
into view and all of 'em were F2b's. We were not successful at bringing him down, but we had allot of fun in the process
and shot down allot of the other pilots.
The F2b can be force to deal with when the pilots flying them are organized and allot of fun. I have noticed that the front
gun seems more like a pea shooter than a machine gun. It might be my connection, but I rarely have rubber bullets when I fly
one of the planes with duel vickers or spandaus.
<S>
Mano
:cheers:
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lol mano...the whole time i was reading this post i was thinking of that very moment. Yeah...the look on my face :eek: was priceless!! Great fun
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To answer mechanic's question, you're right, I can fly anywhere I want but the rear gunner on an F2B is still a huge threat. The F2 can shoot head on, from its tail, straight up, left, right, pretty much anywhere except down. The F2 is also faster than any other plane in there so even if you run it can still catch up and get a shot. If you try to turn away from an F2 going the opposite direction it has a shot and you don't. I can fully understand using the rear gunner when you're in a furball, I find that perfectly acceptable.
But my question to you mechanic is: lets say you're flying in a D7. You get into a turn fight with a good dogfighting pilot in an F2B. You're having a tough fight because the F2 actually out turns your D7 easily but you're flying good angles so you can make up for it. Then after about 5 mins. of on the deck stall fighting the F2 makes a slight mistake in geometry and you get the shot. Right before you can get the F2 down though he switches over to the the rear gun and kills you. Does that sound fair that the F2 pilot who makes a huge mistake actually beats the guy who flies a perfect fight?
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You didnt fly a perfect flight, you got yourself into the fire ark of an aircraft that has a rear gunner. If you flew a perfect fight you would not do this. This must be taken into account when you ID your enemy as a two seater. Consider that almost every two seater flown in combat would have been equiped with crew for the gun possitions.
Fly a 'perfect fight', and they can't get you however their defence systems are setup. If that answers your question.
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Then what is a perfect fight against an F2? attacking from underneath? You can't always do that lol. If flying a perfect fight against an F2B means not allowing them a shot at all then you might as well stay in the tower. If you create an arena that were to take out the variable of people shooting differently by making each gun computer aimed/100% accurate then the only time the D7,F1 or DR1 should win in a dogfight is if they are able to attack from underneath, and a good F2 pilot should never let this happen.
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Right then, so untill you can get the 'perfect fight' don't expect to engage F2s without taking hits?
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The prefect fight against an F2B is pretty simple...stay over them and drop down right into their cockpit while they are flying straight using the rear gun. The rear gun will not point straight up. They die very quickly. If you miss fly away at a 95 degree angle, no one is that good a shot from the rear gun that they can often hit a plane flying away perpendicular to their line of flight. Raven...you know it is not that hard to avoid an F2B's guns...and that, war by definition, even WWI, was never fair.
Check the plane stats. I think you will find the greatest ratio of kills over deaths is in the DR. Nothing wrong with that at all. But if the F2B was so deadly...then they are being flown exclusively by Curly and Mo. The plane stats for the F2B are not that good.
Mean I was with Mano that night...fun for all it was. Mano and I used to do that in another sim too...called the plane "Kung Pao Raider". If a bunch of them fly together they are deadly, but that does not happen a lot.
One
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Well seeing that I almost never enter a fight with the energy advantage needed to get above an F2 and drop down onto them, that's sort of out of the question. The F2 is deadly though, at this time in tour 6 the F2B has a kill to death of 1.19/1 and the D7 has a K/d of .71/1. In the months before this the F2's numbers have been lower. At this time though, on paper the F2B is far more deadly than the D7, which is odd because the D7 is flown by a lot of great pilots in here. My point is though, the F2 is already a very deadly aircraft in WW1 even though it hasn't been flown to its full potential yet. If pilots flew it to its full potential I think it could easily be on par with the DR1, if not deadlier. And I couldn't disagree more with the way F2 pilots get their kills because to me a good kill is one you have to work for, one that requires expert skill, good hand-eye coordination, great angles and geometry and discipline.
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After the disaster of its first outing, and they sorted out the tactics, the Brisfit was actually very successful in the air to air role when attacked by more nimble single seat fighters. The top scoring British observer managed 39 kills, all in the F2B. Later versions had two tail guns, which made even more potent.
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/gass.php
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Those stats are meaningless to the topic, the % of D7 pilots compared to few F2 pilots makes a k/d ratio alone very inacurate. Try looking at the top ranked WWI players and see what they have been flying. We do understand your point but realise that you have the option to change your tactics yet would prefer to change the game instead. I think maybe you're in the wrong place for what you describe, our WWI arena currently is very much a point and shoot 'em up. If you can find the individual fights that are worthy of your expectations that is good, but the gameplay is most likely to be fast paced and hectic in the WWI arena. Try Rise of Flight if you want a really challenging WWI flight sim, it's much less noob friendly. Cos lets face it right, this is a noob problem for you. It annoys you that someone with no cartoon flying skills can escape and then kill you without effort. That is the base fact of this situation and I tell ya, the quickest solution is to change your gameplay.
S!
Well seeing that I almost never enter a fight with the energy advantage needed to get above an F2 and drop down onto them, that's sort of out of the question. The F2 is deadly though, at this time in tour 6 the F2B has a kill to death of 1.19/1 and the D7 has a K/d of .71/1. In the months before this the F2's numbers have been lower. At this time though, on paper the F2B is far more deadly than the D7, which is odd because the D7 is flown by a lot of great pilots in here. My point is though, the F2 is already a very deadly aircraft in WW1 even though it hasn't been flown to its full potential yet. If pilots flew it to its full potential I think it could easily be on par with the DR1, if not deadlier. And I couldn't disagree more with the way F2 pilots get their kills because to me a good kill is one you have to work for, one that requires expert skill, good hand-eye coordination, great angles and geometry and discipline.
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Rgr mechanic, you bring up a few good points there.
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Great thread and some interesting points of view :salute Not altogether dissimilar to recent discussions re the Dr1, although as already mentioned in this case the F2b was a formidable beasty while the dr1 (in reality) was more of a one trick pony. So I can see an argument against the current Dr1 while the F2b seems like a fair representation. Xcelsior and 1701E fly the thing well and rarely resort to the rear gun.... I shudder to think of taking them on if they had someone with a good eye in the back seat. As for those doing the standard driving and gunning thing, I'd imagine their antics would fairly replicate those of many real world F2b's (or similar two seaters) back in the day, so I'm ok with it. Accurate shooting does seem more the norm than I would have expected from the rear gun, I certainly can't hit anything with it so I just have to give credit for some very good shooting. Anyway good luck to 'em, the place is crawling with talent these days and I don't see why that particular skill is any less valid than aerial ballet.
For what it's worth, I think the best way to take out an F2b is 2v1, probably the way it was done for real also. As for multiple F2b's, for some reason on such occassions my Camel gets thirsty and it's rtb time - a refreshing drink, change of undies and possibly even a change of country :bolt:
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ok...i know i haven't been in the air much lately. however...while in the camel and up against Xcelsior and Worm in a F2b is certain death for me. They never use rear gunner, they simply outfly my camel. If they where to put a man in the rear gun they would only die from there own mistakes like hitting a tree or something. Not sure what the argument is on this post anymore but with a good stik in a F2b is a deadly combo. Sure there is a rear gunner and if the pilots wants to try it so be it...that's what's it's there for.
The way i see it is if i am close enuf for him to jump to rear guns and kill me then i must be close enuf to kill him first. If I let him have the angle knowing that there is a possibility that the rear gun will get me then I the one that scewed up. Sure everyone gets a lucky PW shot every now and then. It happens to and from everyone.
We have all these complaints about what this bird will do and the other wont. I get kills in all of em and die in all of em just like the others. My suggestion could be that if your dieing alot in a particular bird then either change to another or get better in the one ya in. I will tell anyone that b4 you can get alot of kills in a certain plane you have to die in it alot first. Just be thankfull that we are in a game and not real life.
So now...whoever wants to bash on that be my guest....just remember...for each bashing I expect to meet ya in the air to settle it...lol
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Need some more rides in there. Need some more targets....some bombers, some blimps, Observation balloons.....give us trenches with little doughboys and pointy headed Germans to strafe. Heck...how about some of the early tanks to drive around in -plugging away at each other.
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Need some more rides in there. Need some more targets....some bombers, some blimps, Observation balloons.....give us trenches with little doughboys and pointy headed Germans to strafe. Heck...how about some of the early tanks to drive around in -plugging away at each other.
WTG Yeager!! You turned this thread into a wish list!! The pilots need to be able to hop out of their downed planes and pistol duel each other.... think frog was yappin about that the other day. And a map with just two country's. Can that be done?
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A map with just 2 countries would be great!!! Can keep 2 airfields for each. Would be crazy if ya could ditch right outside cons field and run up to where there taking off and shoot em down while they lo taking off...hehe...how the griping would take away on that.
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A map with just 2 countries would be great!!! Can keep 2 airfields for each. Would be crazy if ya could ditch right outside cons field and run up to where there taking off and shoot em down while they lo taking off...hehe...how the griping would take away on that.
Well of course then we'd have to have manable guns on the perimeter....... And two nice towns so we can fly through the streets, like the mad men we are.
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,,,,,if we are gonna turn this thread into a wishlist thread......I would be in favor of adding a WWI Motorcycle with side car and machine gun.
Now that would be fun. No way that evil Meandog is gonna get away from my machine gun. :rofl
(http://www.strangeoldepictures.com/images/content/134585.jpg)
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,,,,,if we are gonna turn this thread into a wishlist thread......I would be in favor of adding a WWI Motorcycle with side car and machine gun.
Now that would be fun. No way that evil Meandog is gonna get away from my machine gun. :rofl
(http://www.strangeoldepictures.com/images/content/134585.jpg)
He looks so serious, though the vehicle is so comical in looks! :rofl
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F2b'ing is serious business for some. Seems like every time I get behind one I get damaged....
ie. PW, fuel leak, motor oil, or lose something else that disables my plane.
My favorite tactic is a shallow dive from above and try to wound the pilot.
On the next pass if I manage to keep my E,
is go up from underneath and spray the pilot area real good.
F2b's can take allot of damage, but the cockpit is definitely
the choice area to aim at.
<S>
Mano
:salute
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LOL...with Mano on this one. Across too many years and various wwi sims we have wished for the bike with a side car...machine gun. It would go almost as fast as a dr! And, a fight against another bike...or a bunch, would be a hoot.
Killing an F2B is not too hard if you get in the right position...again, Mano's suggestion works fine. If you end up chasing it at co-alt you have made a serious error. Simply dive away and try to get positioned for the next pass.
Noticed a lot of folks flying them now...it is fun to fly. Wish I could aim that single front gun...some of us are hopeless with that. My hit % goes out about 5 places to the right of the decimal before you find the first numeral other than a zero when in the F2B, but you can live a long time and have some great fights.
One