Safety is a bit more important.
You do know how X-Rays work right?
I'm going to have to talk to my dentist too I guess.
hmmmm it'd be fun to start unbuttoning my pants while saying 'yall better stand back might get loose' :D
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
- Benjamin Franklin
Honestly, if they wanna blow up a plane they will find a way to do it. They will get a job as a baggage handler, or just overcharge a laptop battery
Someone sees you with no clothes on? Big deal. I saw those planes hit the towers, and I had 3 friends die when they fell. I'm all for personal liberty but if you're too shy to be body-scanned then plan on driving everywhere. Safety is a bit more important.
As we reported yesterday, claims that the body scanners did not provide details of genitals were DISPROVEN after a London Guardian journalist who was present at a trial for the machines earlier this week reported that the devices produce an image which make “genitals eerily visible.” Indeed, as was admitted when the scanners were first being rolled out over a year ago, they don’t function properly if areas of the body are blurred out. A report from October 2008, when the naked body scanners were first being introduced at Melbourne Airport in Australia, detailed how the X-ray backscatter devices don’t work properly unless the genitals of people going through them are visible.
Rep. Jason Chaffetz said the body scanners give an explicit view of a naked person. "It is a whole-body image, and they can spin it 360 degrees. And they can zoom in and see something as small as a nickel or dime," he said. "But they can't spot something hidden in a body cavity. A good old-fashioned sniffing dog is more effective."
How will they handle Transsexual flyers that need to get patted down?
...especially if they havn't had their legal gender changed yet
call me a cynic, but most of the money we spend on homeland security has nothing to do with making us safe, most of it is wasted or given to really good friends on some bs contracts.
semp
Someone sees you with no clothes on? Big deal. I saw those planes hit the towers, and I had 3 friends die when they fell. I'm all for personal liberty but if you're too shy to be body-scanned then plan on driving everywhere. Safety is a bit more important.Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
- Benjamin Franklin, 'Pennsylvania Assembly: November 11, 1755.
OK so everyone that has an issue with the potential health aspect of these machines let me ask you a question or two.......
do you smoke? do you reside in proximity to anyone who does?
do you drive a car or are you exposed in any fashion to any petroleum by product?
do any of you ever go outside during the daytime and leave any skin exposed to the sun for more than just a few seconds?
do any of you use ANY man made products of any kind?
do any of you breathe the air without filtering it first?
do any of you................
well you get the idea. just being alive is the slow process of dieing and i seriously doubt these machines are going to accelerate your demise. but if they do them let me be the first to say "I :salute your sacrifice made on behalf of the safety of the rest of us"
and to those who would quote those that lived hundreds of years ago.......well they didn't have underwear an shoe bombers to live with did they? the times change with technology and what was once a given truth is no longer completely true in today's world. the constitution was written in a vague and abstract manner so that it may be allowed to change in meaning with the change in time and circumstance. don't take every quote and speech given by our predecessors to be completely accurate and applicable in today's world.
Sorry Flotsom, were not going to let it stand.
Sens. Doherty, Beach Introduce Resolution Calling on Congress to Reconsider TSA Screening Procedures
Senator Michael J. Doherty (R- Hunterdon, Warren) and Senator James Beach (D- Camden) announced they will present resolutions to the Senate and Assembly calling on the U.S. Congress to end TSA screening procedures requiring full body scans and pat downs at U.S. airports Their action comes in response to widespread concerns over privacy and radiation, as well as reports of inappropriate conduct by TSA agents during the screening process.
“The pursuit of security should not force Americans to surrender their civil liberties or basic human dignity at a TSA checkpoint,” said Doherty. “Subjecting law-abiding American citizens to naked body scans and full body pat downs is intolerable, humiliating, vulnerable to abuse, and is fast becoming a disincentive to travel. Particularly concerning to us is the fact that physical searches result in children being touched in private areas of the body. Terrorists hate America because of the freedoms upon which this great nation was built. By implementing these screening measures, the TSA has already handed a victory to those who seek to destroy our freedoms.”
http://bit.ly/c0n2FL
gee glory hunting politicians proposing bills with quotes from famous people of yestur year......yep that's a new one isn't it.
let me ask you this, where do you think those politicians will be the next time a commercial flight in America is destroyed by an act of terrorism?
screw politician and their self serving agenda's, this is purely about the safety of people who use airlines as a means of transportation and those in buildings that those airliners may be flown into.
these politicians are just jumping on the popularity band wagon, they are getting name recognition and free publicity on the unpopularity of the TSA security measures.
if you don't like the measures taken to ensure your safety on airliners then DRIVE. its a voluntary and momentary relinquishment of your modesty. i think even Ben would agree that its not to much to ask of any individual when balanced against the possible tragedies that could come from not employing the security measures available to us.
oh and by the way, you do understand that the TSA already can conduct strip searches if they feel their are grounds for it. they can actually detain you and transport you to a hospital for x-rays if they believe you are transporting contraband internally. just ask the thousands of drug mules currently incarcerated in the federal system about the legality of it. even the US Supreme court says that such actions are not only legal but they are vital in the protection of our citizens from contraband of all kinds.
but if they do them let me be the first to say "I :salute your sacrifice made on behalf of the safety of the rest of us"
overwhelming support for full body scan in the US
(http://www.cbsnews.com/i/tim/2010/11/15/airport_pie_chart_370x278.gif)
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022876-503544.html
overwhelming support for full body scan in the US
(http://www.cbsnews.com/i/tim/2010/11/15/airport_pie_chart_370x278.gif)
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022876-503544.html
That is the most obnoxious ignorant statement I v ever read. Really? Sacrifice for the survival of the stupid that think those machines actually keep them safe?
How many did the security measures stop? The underwear guy and the shoe guy got in them planes no? Only the old lady did not make it through lol.
As I posted in the other thred... we should have the freedom to fly the "feel me up" flight or a "freedom" flight.
the times change with technology and what was once a given truth is no longer completely true in today's world. the constitution was written in a vague and abstract manner so that it may be allowed to change in meaning with the change in time and circumstance. don't take every quote and speech given by our predecessors to be completely accurate and applicable in today's world.
I'm fairly certain the forefathers of this great country didn't intend for the populace to be seen naked before travel. Don't you consider it a complete lack of privacy? I can see it now from the forefathers perspective;
"I am sorry, but before you go from New York to Boston on the Post Road you must be visualized in a naked manner."
and
"I know you want to take the canal from Buffalo to Albany, but we have to make sure you aren't carrying too much gunpowder to possibly destroy the canal. Get naked or we will check every part of you with our hands."
show me a measure of how much gun powder, in tens of pounds, it would take to blow a hole in the side of a ship (the only mass transit of the day) and sink it
It was in jest, I thought that was fairly clear.
Besides, they didn't use ships for the most part on the canal system, like the Erie. It was all donkey drawn skiffs during that time period.
sorry if i was touchy, been a long argument. my appologies for missing your jest.
did they really use mule drawn skiffs back then? didnt know that. see you are as smart as i first believed.
Now just poll the folks who actually fly.
NO MAN will EVER touch me there.....I would of rather walked across the country.
-BigBOBCH
I guess my big problem is I feel its ineffective.
A suffciently "motivated" terrorist could hide a fair amount of plastic explosive in a body cavity.
Then what will be the next airport security check?
"Moooooooon Riiiiverrrrr...la de da de daaaa...." Fletch
Wab
the constitution and the bill of rights is written in a vague and abstract manner so that it can be molded and modified to fit the changing times.
Can I carry my gun on this "freedom" flight?
If your licensed to carry where you are and where you are going.
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html (http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html)
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html)
tell me anything stated in an exacting fashion that is set in stone within these documents. everything written such as "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures," the fourth Amendment, does not say what an "unreasonable search is. instead it says it in a vague manner allowing for changes in time circumstances and opinions of the people to change. this is what i mean by vague, and every part of both the Constitution and The Bill of Rights is written in this fluid and modifiable manner. every part of it is made to be changed by prevailing opinions of interpretation.
this is also why we have a president style of court system. judges do not just read the law as written but also read the law in light of the prior rulings of other judicial bodies on that law. the actual interpretation and applicability of any and every law under the specific case circumstances is left to the trier of fact and the jury themselves.
this manner of government and law is designed to survive the test of time and the winds of change while still maintaining a relevant value to both its original intent and an ever changing world.
What was meant to be done, and what has been done are very different things. If you ever put in an advanced study of our history, you'd probably walk away disgusted with what has happened to our Constitution.
At the very least, you would definitely dispute your quote: "every part of it is made to be changed by prevailing opinions of interpretation."
Just because a text book or teacher says so does not make it so. Go read the primary sources.
OK under your logic, Gov, Cops anyone with a "official" title can search your person place or anything you own at anytime and your just fine with that, unreasonable search would be me walking into a public place and being told i have to be searched because i might be a bad guy, or driving down the road and being pulled over and me and my car ransacked because i looked suspicious whats next Malls? sporting events? anyplace where more than a certain number of people congregate to keep us all safe? wow what a Parinoid Nation we have become
And don't get me started on the interstate commerce clause! :mad: :mad: :mad:
wow what a Parinoid Nation we have become
only way to do that is a Federal CWP do they have those regular citizens and not just Law enforcement
Looks like the bad guys scored 1 :(
heck not over me, chances of me slipping in the shower or driving my truck and being killed are far greater than by terrorist's, the biggest act of terrorism it's self is instilling the fear
Just fill the planes with nude pictures. That should stop any religious fanatics from even boarding the plane.
:rofl
now this is pure genius
Ok my question. Where do babies come from?
The hospital? :confused:
Flotsom, it's not even worth arguing with you. You clearly don't get it.
no no NO the Stork Duh!!!
no no NO the Stork Duh!!!
what exactly don't i get?
<snip>
the interpretation of what is "too far" is within the sole reach and discretion of the government. <snip>
ok everybody who wants to be a smart man???? then answer this simple question..
where in the constitution does it state that any person has the RIGHT TO PRIVACY??????? which is part of the basis of the original argument here.
your arguments are additionally flawed because they are based upon the rights you are considered to have at/in your home, mine is based upon you voluntarily entering into a place that is controlled, regulated and protected by the government. a place that by entering you are conceding to being searched at any time with or without cause. do any of you bother to read the signs at the front doors. try entering a military base and telling the guard at the gate that you have a "right to privacy" and no he cannot search your car, try it at a court house or any other federal building. these places have the same signs.
when you enter the property, any property under the direct control of the government normally, but not always, you will find the place has posted upon or near the entrance in conspicuous view, a sign that tells you this fact. so if you enter of your own free will you have given your consent by your actions period. thus you have waved your right(s). these signs are further posted again and again at each step in the process of moving through the airport. so tell me, at which point of reading these signs over and over again do you start to fail to understand what they say? or do you start to believe they don't mean you?
any right may be voluntarily waved, like for instance the right not to be forced to incriminate yourself, upon your acquiescence by act or omission, providing it may be reasonably believed that you were made aware of such forfeiture of said right(s). signs posted in a conspicuous manner in the eyes of the courts constitutes such reasonable belief that you have this required knowledge.
see i live in the real world and i actually read what is there, so unlike most people i get alot of what is based upon reality, not what others think they get because its what they said on their favorite cop show on t.v..
if you wanna quote chapter and verse of articles and documents you obviously know little about then you better bring it with more than quotes that do not support your arguments.
The minimum requirements to now feel up or view naked, you, your wife and your kids.
Educational Background
FAR 108.31(a)(1) requires that screeners possess a high school diploma, a General Equivalency Diploma, or a combination of education and experience which the certificate holder has determined to have equipped the person to perform the duties of the position. This implies that the airline can decide that a screener does not have to successfully complete high school.
Criminal Background Checks
FAR 108.33(c)(5) does not require criminal records checks for every screener applicant, only for those applicants who have specific deficiencies in their employment history, if there are other deficiencies in the application, or if the air carrier finds out that the applicant may have been convicted of certain kinds of crimes. The required criminal records check is with the FBI, but the regulations do not say anything about records checks from other countries.
Criminal History
Surprisingly, a conviction for a crime, even a violent felony, does not disqualify someone from working as a screener. FAR 108.33(2) states that a criminal records check must not disclose that the applicant had been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity, in any jurisdiction, during the previous 10 years of a number of crimes such as aircraft piracy, interference with a flight crew or cabin crew member, assault with intent to murder, rape or aggravated sexual abuse, or armed robbery. This list of crimes include sedition, treason, extortion, or distribution of a controlled substance. This regulation implies that so long as the conviction were at least 10 years old, almost any convicted criminal could become a security screener.
So, FLOTSOM, you're arguing for this knowing that things like misconduct can and will happen, that kids 5-15 +/- will be nude on someone's monitor and that there is also a chance of them being put through physical searches? Not to mention peoples wives and girlfriends?
You can't really be serious.
And the last time I checked the only people the president gets to see naked are the interns.
tell me are the prior criminal record requirements (with the exception of specif schooling required to perform said job) any more stringent to be a doctor? how about a professional photographer? how about a cop? a marine? or any other military branch of service?
Oh dear GOD yes. What did I go through to get in?
FBI background check.
Graduate high-school.
Submit personal references.
Have every inch of my body checked in a physical, to include sonograms, MRIs, and CT scans.
Submit written testimony of any discrepancy in my personal history to include any failed classes in highschool, and police involvement, etc.
You think you can walk into the military without graduating highschool and without a criminal background check? I couldn't even get an apartment without a background check!
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
well thats funny cause i have 2 friends with criminal records that are in the military. what was your MOS? im not saying the dont check, but its what will pass that matters.
Right now, I'm training to be an officer and going for aviation.
It IS possible to get in with a criminal record. The difference is, there are certain criminal charges that, well, the military deems are acceptable. But they are KNOWN by the military, and taken into account when assigning an MOS. The key here is that TSA doesn't even check necessarily.
tell me are the prior criminal record requirements (with the exception of specif schooling required to perform said job) any more stringent to be a doctor? how about a professional photographer? how about a cop? a marine? or any other military branch of service? how about any of your local lawyers politicians sherif ect ect ect. in most cases you will find they are not."
Here are the requirements for running for President:
"The United States Constitution provides that a candidate for the presidency must be a "natural-born" United States citizen. The candidate must also be at least 35 years old and must have lived in the United States for at least 14 years. No law or court decision has yet defined the exact meaning of natural-born. Authorities assume the term applies to citizens born in the United States and its territories. But they are not sure if it also includes children born to United States citizens in other countries. How Nominated: By a national political party convention" "
those are the only requirements that you must meet to become president of the US. nowhere does it stipulate that a person must be free of a criminal history. in the end the voters will decide, look at Bush. so your criminal history argument really doesnt hold up when it comes to job requirements does it?
now before you say well he wont be looking at the monitors or he wont be padding me down ect ect, keep in mind the power over you privacy he has.
because of your additional ignorant and derogatory attitude about school lets run with level of education. try this for facts........."The Constitution does not require the President to be a college graduate, or even a high school or kindergarten graduate. Nine American presidents never went to college, including such great presidents as George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, (although Lincoln was accepted to the bar and practiced law, he was largely self-taught) and even the 20th century president who won the war against Japan, Harry S. Truman. The others are Andrew Jackson, Martin Van Buren, Zachary Taylor, Millard Fillmore and Grover Cleveland. In fact, the 17th president of the United States, Andrew Johnson, never went to school at all. His wife taught him to read and write."
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm so your argument about educational levels really doesnt hold up very well either does it?
you are an officer and a pilot, first :salute second those types of jobs imply much more responsibility than the average grunt who humps mud.
i could be wrong in this and if someone knows for certain feel free to correct me, but doesnt the fbi do the hiring or screening for the tsa?
Right. One could walk onto a domestic airliner with a couple of pounds of nitrocellulose explosive and a detonator today*** and not even be questioned about it, nor would ANY of the current electromechanical technologies employed by the TSA detect it. Psychological and ethnic profiling plus detailed questioning by a trained professional would easily catch someone attempting such, but NO NO, picking on minorities and foreigners is MUCH more devastating to them (sarcasm intended) than having some stranger gawk at my wifes naked body in a scanner or letting her be groped by some lecher of a TSA guard who flunked the psych exam required to work at McDonalds is to her. Not to mention the fact that the GAO's independent analysis shows that the radiation dose absorbed during a routine scan series is, at a minimum, 10X what the TSA and the manufacturer claims it is. If I'm in another country, well then I have to submit to whatever they see fit there, BUT NOT HERE. To turn your previous question to me on its ear, which is more important, my and my family's personal right to privacy, right to be secure in our selves and possessions against unreasonable search an seizure, and our psychological peace of mind or that of some non-U.S. citizen who has no such rights under our constitution? I say MINE.
Non-metallic weapons+++ and "old-school" conventional explosives are totally undetectable by the machinery you espouse. A nut-job out to kill people on a plane is 99.99% detectable by psych profiling.
Now, let's talk bioweapons...want to kill a plane full of people without resorting to explosives? I can name you at least 6 "bugs" that will do the trick. Want to inoculate a plane-load of pax and then let them spread a disease to, say 1/4 million people before the CDC even realizes they have an epidemic on their hands? That can be accomplished also. All we need is a seed stock and common labware from a high school or undergraduate microbiology lab. The seed stock for MANY human pathogens is available commercially TO ANYBODY from the ATCC (http://www.atcc.org) for a nominal processing fee. We can incorporate genomic (not plasmidic) multiple antibiotic resistance into bacteria in just a week or so. MRSA can be obtained from any hospital. Viruses are a bit trickier, but the CDC's repository in Atlanta is a smorgasbord of opportunity and their security is worse than a 7-11 at 3 am if you know what you need and who on the campus has routine access to it. Biologicals are totally undetectable to the screening systems. (but much more effective sprayed onto the salad bar at a rest stop restuarant)
Chemical weapons? Same deal. Carry on the precursor macromolecules and catalysts / enzymes, then "build" it in the lav. Doesn't take much to get the job done. Three pax with less than 3oz each collaborating, and again, not detectable at security.
How about good ol' physical destruction? Anyone with an AMM can figure out how to disable an airliner's systems from the pax cabin. It isn't rocket science. Need privacy or at least a short head start? Gain access to the crawl spaces through the access panels in the rear lav floor and ceiling in most Boeing equipment. Can't stop that with a screening machine either.
The bad guys haven't TRIED to thwart our security measures, yet. If they had tried, there would be a LOT more dead airplanes and people. The only sociopaths to try it recently, those who made the headlines, were too stupid to pound sand in a desert and they were not terrorists (except by George "Alfred P. Newman" Bush's definition, in which anything that moves and "isn't with us" is a terrorist). Not all mass murderers are terrorists. A smart terrorist would go though TSA security like a hot knife through butter. But, they don't need to. One, its easier to go around it by becoming an airport or airline employee. Two, they've got us chasing our own shadows already, and that was the intent all along. Taking credit for the subsequent idiots' attempts merely serves their purpose of keeping us at it.
Mark my words. The next big terrorist event will have nothing to do with aviation other than their mode of travel to the U.S. in the first place.
***How? By simply rinsing 80:20 cotton-polyester blend clothing fabric briefly in a 2:1 mixture of sulfuric acid and nitric acid, then rinsing it in water and drying it. Turns the cotton into a wearable explosive that would not set off ANY electronic sniffer. The detonator? The striker wheel from a simple butane lighter or any other spark source. BTW -- nitrocellulose = guncotton, the original smokeless gunpowder. Pack it into a confined space once you're on the plane and you've got a bomb, approx 6X more powerful than traditional gunpowder. Need it in a different yet just as undetectable form? Use 100% pure cotton instead. While wet, compress the processed cotton in a jar of petroleum ether. Turns it into a plastic that can be machined and moulded into just about any shape - fake CDs, computer cases, cell phone protectors, shoe liners, you name it. (Goes by the common name collodion, and used to be the the base material in film stock. Nowadays its also commercially available in both solid and liquid form - used by bioresearch labs for mixing custom DNA and protein analysis gels). Collodion is so flammable that once ignited, it will even burn under water - it provides its own oxidant during decomposition. In fact, pouring water onto a "dry" collodion fire will convert the fire into an explosion. In large masses collodion is also a contact explosive, just bang it together and it goes BOOM.
+++ I flew 1/2 way around the world -- New Zealand to the US and then all the way across the US -- with a 8 inch ceramic-bladed Benchmade hunting knife in my carry-on two years ago. Forgot I had put it in the shoulder strap pocket of my knapsack when we were hunting Tahr in the Southern Alps; didn't remember it until I was unpacking at home. It went through x-ray screening no less than 4 times and was never flagged by the screeners. So much for technology solving the problem.
RE quote: "Our way of life has survived.".
No, it has not.
Floatsom, what kind of work do you do?
Not surprisingly, after studying U.S. Code Title 49 and the Aviation and Transportation Security Act (Public Law 107-71) I can't find where the TSA gets it's authority to search passengers bodies in the manner they are doing.
They do have authority to search you physically if you cause the scanners (metal, body, baggage x-ray, dogs) to alarm or if you refuse to be checked by the machine scanners (this is the probable cause thing that law enforcement officers have to abide by). They are very explicit about scanning checked luggage and carry on luggage by both scanners, dogs and physical checks but not people, unless of course, you've given them a reason to suspect you. Which is perfectly legal.
Now, if you look at U. S. Code 18 under Sexual Abuse, you'll see how close the TSA is coming to commiting a crime at airport security checkpoints.
Right. One could walk onto a domestic airliner with a couple of pounds of nitrocellulose explosive and a detonator today*** and not even be questioned about it, nor would ANY of the current electromechanical technologies employed by the TSA detect it. Psychological and ethnic profiling plus detailed questioning by a trained professional would easily catch someone attempting such, but NO NO, picking on minorities and foreigners is MUCH more devastating to them (sarcasm intended) than having some stranger gawk at my wifes naked body in a scanner or letting her be groped by some lecher of a TSA guard who flunked the psych exam required to work at McDonalds is to her. Not to mention the fact that the GAO's independent analysis shows that the radiation dose absorbed during a routine scan series is, at a minimum, 10X what the TSA and the manufacturer claims it is. If I'm in another country, well then I have to submit to whatever they see fit there, BUT NOT HERE. To turn your previous question to me on its ear, which is more important, my and my family's personal right to privacy, right to be secure in our selves and possessions against unreasonable search an seizure, and our psychological peace of mind or that of some non-U.S. citizen who has no such rights under our constitution? I say MINE.
Non-metallic weapons+++ and "old-school" conventional explosives are totally undetectable by the machinery you espouse. A nut-job out to kill people on a plane is 99.99% detectable by psych profiling.
Now, let's talk bioweapons...want to kill a plane full of people without resorting to explosives? I can name you at least 6 "bugs" that will do the trick. Want to inoculate a plane-load of pax and then let them spread a disease to, say 1/4 million people before the CDC even realizes they have an epidemic on their hands? That can be accomplished also. All we need is a seed stock and common labware from a high school or undergraduate microbiology lab. The seed stock for MANY human pathogens is available commercially TO ANYBODY from the ATCC (http://www.atcc.org) for a nominal processing fee. We can incorporate genomic (not plasmidic) multiple antibiotic resistance into bacteria in just a week or so. MRSA can be obtained from any hospital. Viruses are a bit trickier, but the CDC's repository in Atlanta is a smorgasbord of opportunity and their security is worse than a 7-11 at 3 am if you know what you need and who on the campus has routine access to it. Biologicals are totally undetectable to the screening systems. (but much more effective sprayed onto the salad bar at a rest stop restuarant)
Chemical weapons? Same deal. Carry on the precursor macromolecules and catalysts / enzymes, then "build" it in the lav. Doesn't take much to get the job done. Three pax with less than 3oz each collaborating, and again, not detectable at security.
How about good ol' physical destruction? Anyone with an AMM can figure out how to disable an airliner's systems from the pax cabin. It isn't rocket science. Need privacy or at least a short head start? Gain access to the crawl spaces through the access panels in the rear lav floor and ceiling in most Boeing equipment. Can't stop that with a screening machine either.
The bad guys haven't TRIED to thwart our security measures, yet. If they had tried, there would be a LOT more dead airplanes and people. The only sociopaths to try it recently, those who made the headlines, were too stupid to pound sand in a desert and they were not terrorists (except by George "Alfred P. Newman" Bush's definition, in which anything that moves and "isn't with us" is a terrorist). Not all mass murderers are terrorists. A smart terrorist would go though TSA security like a hot knife through butter. But, they don't need to. One, its easier to go around it by becoming an airport or airline employee. Two, they've got us chasing our own shadows already, and that was the intent all along. Taking credit for the subsequent idiots' attempts merely serves their purpose of keeping us at it.
Mark my words. The next big terrorist event will have nothing to do with aviation other than their mode of travel to the U.S. in the first place.
***How? By simply rinsing 80:20 cotton-polyester blend clothing fabric briefly in a 2:1 mixture of sulfuric acid and nitric acid, then rinsing it in water and drying it. Turns the cotton into a wearable explosive that would not set off ANY electronic sniffer. The detonator? The striker wheel from a simple butane lighter or any other spark source. BTW -- nitrocellulose = guncotton, the original smokeless gunpowder. Pack it into a confined space once you're on the plane and you've got a bomb, approx 6X more powerful than traditional gunpowder. Need it in a different yet just as undetectable form? Use 100% pure cotton instead. While wet, compress the processed cotton in a jar of petroleum ether. Turns it into a plastic that can be machined and moulded into just about any shape - fake CDs, computer cases, cell phone protectors, shoe liners, you name it. (Goes by the common name collodion, and used to be the the base material in film stock. Nowadays its also commercially available in both solid and liquid form - used by bioresearch labs for mixing custom DNA and protein analysis gels). Collodion is so flammable that once ignited, it will even burn under water - it provides its own oxidant during decomposition. In fact, pouring water onto a "dry" collodion fire will convert the fire into an explosion. In large masses collodion is also a contact explosive, just bang it together and it goes BOOM.
+++ I flew 1/2 way around the world -- New Zealand to the US and then all the way across the US -- with a 8 inch ceramic-bladed Benchmade hunting knife in my carry-on two years ago. Forgot I had put it in the shoulder strap pocket of my knapsack when we were hunting Tahr in the Southern Alps; didn't remember it until I was unpacking at home. It went through x-ray screening no less than 4 times and was never flagged by the screeners. So much for technology solving the problem.
RE quote: "Our way of life has survived.".
No, it has not.
. . . .
Flot isnt your wife a lawyer? ( thought i remember you saying that a few times) apologize if i'm wrong
[quote author=FLOTSOM link=topic=300278.msg3849192#msg3849192 date=safety and security is a progressive and ever changing animal. once you have protected them from the harms of one possible hazzard they find something new to do that puts them at risk, children are very creative when it comes to doing things that will get them hurt. does this mean you just say to hell with it and do nothing?
Ok. So where does it stop? Let's say, that the TSA really does have the authority to search the way they do. When groping you, your wife and kids, do they stop at the first knuckle while reaching up into your/their butt? Do they stop at the wrist? Elbow? Tell me? Where do you draw the line? Why do you think the fourth amendment exists? Are you one of those that years ago burned their draft cards and shouted "Hell no! We won't go!" but now advocate that a govenment agent can fondle you, your wife and kids?
I don't advocate we do nothing. We all know that airline security is already very tight. Plus, I don't see how you think I'm a "tough guy talking trash" while just trying to explain to you how our liberty is being stripped away in the guise of security. Please wake up!
but not an act of violence that may have been stoppable.
"tbh all this is going to do is make osama be more creative."
Right. Cause Obama creatively made the TSA, wrapped it up under Homeland
Security and enabled it withall the sins that go along with the Patriot Acts and
then he had good ole around Chertoff to push having these scanners put in right
after the "underwear" bomber attempted to murder a few hundred people on a
plane to Detroit!
Yuh know. I'm not sure he could get any more creative and top that..
Aren't they all stoppable? All we have to do is have a 24 hour curfew and only get out of the house upon requesting and receiving permission from our protectors. Then the cameras would follow us and law enforcement would respond and arrest who ever did not follow his agreed upon rout. I would feel really safe then and happy that I would not be able to lose any of you in an act of violence. Unless of coarse that act happened while you were not following the route you had been permitted to follow on your way to the grocery store and our protectors had to make sure you could not hurt us if that was your plan. Is that what you are shooting for?
Since you wont answer, I ll take a guess. Are part of some kind of law enforcement agency?
i have come to the conclussion that having this conversation with people who have no true respect for the sacrifices others have made and are continuing to make on their behalf, is a waste of my time and effort.
Then ya gotta sit in the middle seat for 3 hours with that squishy K-Y feeling,,,Had an over 30 physical before? :rofl
This issue in a big part is controllable by your airport.
Airports are NOT required to use TSA personnel. They can use private companies, as long as those private companies follow TSA procedure.
You mean the sacrifices of those made so we can live in a FREE country?
I'm a vet. I have more respect for sacrifice than you can possibly fathom.
You want to talk respect? How about respecting the law abiding citizen? How about respect for the constitution?
If this stuff was being done in a school, you'd be livid!
I find it funny that a military commander can't order someone to submit to a full body search without that person being arrested or detained, yet it is somehow legal to order a military member to fly via commercial airline where that military member will be subjected to either a thorough groping or having nudie pics taken of them.
The military goes to such great lengths to do the right thing in this area, that during our recurring fitness tests, the waist measurement has to be done by a same-sex test administrator who has undergone special training. No, in the military, you gotta get arrested before you are subjected to a full body search. Except when you're ordered to fly commercial, then it's perfectly fine to get involuntarily groped without being arrested or detained for cause, and you can't decline because that would be "failure to go" punishable under the UCMJ.
Funny how the US used to be proud about standing up against that sort of thing in the world.
Even more funny. A guy that just spent 2 years being shot at by the enemy, is not trusted to board a plane in his country, the one he was lucky not to have died for, and he needs to be searched at the airport :rofl
Uhhh, Sir? We do trust you to give your life for us, but not to get on this plane. Bend over please, and have a happy flight :rofl
I see your point but there was a sodier who threw a grenade into a tent and killed other soldiers. Then the wacko soldier in Texas who shot and killed 12........
It is a crying shame but soldiers should be checked like everyone else. The main point is the TSA is out of control.
Yes, but why only on airplanes then? Why are we so worried about airplanes? The same guy could walk into a bar and take out a lot more people if he wanted to. My guess is that airplanes cost a lot of money and airlines or their insurance companies do not want to have to pay for a new one. So really, who is TSA really protecting? Us or some insurance company?
"Funny how the US used to be proud about standing up against that sort of thing in the world."
Let me whip out a popular response from 2004.
What's the problem if you have nothing to hide??
What has been your stance on the Patriot Acts Serenity?
In all honesty, I haven't taken one. I doubt I am the subject of the wire taps, etc., and so I never connected with the issue on a personal level. I have such a strong opinion here because I fly frequently.
In all honesty, I haven't taken one. I doubt I am the subject of the wire taps, etc., and so I never connected with the issue on a personal level. I have such a strong opinion here because I fly frequently.