Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JUGgler on December 27, 2010, 10:13:57 AM
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So I said in a previous thread I would begin the next tour flying IL2 1st week F1 and 2nd week F3 to see if there is a measurable difference tween the 2.
I tinkered with it Sunday a bit in F3 and found no issues with gunning, in fact I found it easier in some aspects over F1 cockpit view.
I expect the week in F1 will be very tedious and full of "towertime"
The week of F3 will show unmistakable improvement and advantage IMHO.
After my initial look at it this weekend, I will deffinitely do the test next tour!
I am also thinking of doing a 3rd week with a gunner to see "with gunner" if it is comparible to F3. Some have said that F3 is the same as having another pair of eyes in the back seat (we shall see). I suspect the delay and lack of precise info from the gunner will show a significant disadvantage compaired to F3! Any volunteers for week 3? ;)
This is for fun only, although after researching the database for F3 it seems there is much contention and disagreement over it. Yet I could find no evidence if any1 did a fair measurable study of it! So I'll give it a go.
Besides I'm sure I'll be shot down at the same rate as I am in the JUG :)
JUGgler
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So I said in a previous thread I would begin the next tour flying IL2 1st week F1 and 2nd week F3 to see if there is a measurable difference tween the 2.
I tinkered with it Sunday a bit in F3 and found no issues with gunning, in fact I found it easier in some aspects over F1 cockpit view.
I expect the week in F1 will be very tedious and full of "towertime"
The week of F3 will show unmistakable improvement and advantage IMHO.
After my initial look at it this weekend, I will deffinitely do the test next tour!
I am also thinking of doing a 3rd week with a gunner to see "with gunner" if it is comparible to F3. Some have said that F3 is the same as having another pair of eyes in the back seat (we shall see). I suspect the delay and lack of precise info from the gunner will show a significant disadvantage compaired to F3! Any volunteers for week 3? ;)
This is for fun only, although after researching the database for F3 it seems there is much contention and disagreement over it. Yet I could find no evidence if any1 did a fair measurable study of it! So I'll give it a go.
Besides I'm sure I'll be shot down at the same rate as I am in the JUG :)
JUGgler
i will ride with Jug dont mind my story telling :) :salute
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So I said in a previous thread I would begin the next tour flying IL2 1st week F1 and 2nd week F3 to see if there is a measurable difference tween the 2.
I tinkered with it Sunday a bit in F3 and found no issues with gunning, in fact I found it easier in some aspects over F1 cockpit view.
JUGgler
Just wait until you have 15 or 20 busy sorties with the gunnery...it will shock you. Dont forget to set you convergence out twice as far as you like it now...the arc will help flat turn shots. Two predictions:
1) Your hit % will drop because you will follow your tracer trail initially; once you establish your shot angle-sight picture, it will go back up;
2) Your long distance kills (600+) will be noticable almost immediately at any visable angle.
Good luck with it..
Changeup
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The only folks that doubt there's a benefit to using F3 for gunning are those that have never used it repeatedly. Even dogfighting in a Ju87 is a million times easier with F3 on in the MAs because you pull perfect lead until you see your hitsprites land, then keep them hitting until you kill the target.
In a cannon armed IL2 it's a little different but still quite powerful. I've got deflection shots off on LA7s with my 37mm (yes, the big spuds) on an IL2 before. Pulled so much lead the La7 was at the bottom of my screen (in F3 mode, mind you!) and still landed 2 rounds on target.
So I don't get all the doubt recently. It's been this way since forever. Since HTH rooms have had F3 enabled all the way back in AH1. It's just a fact. More power to folks if they're just learning it now, but this is old news.
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The only folks that doubt there's a benefit to using F3 for gunning are those that have never used it repeatedly. Even dogfighting in a Ju87 is a million times easier with F3 on in the MAs because you pull perfect lead until you see your hitsprites land, then keep them hitting until you kill the target.
In a cannon armed IL2 it's a little different but still quite powerful. I've got deflection shots off on LA7s with my 37mm (yes, the big spuds) on an IL2 before. Pulled so much lead the La7 was at the bottom of my screen (in F3 mode, mind you!) and still landed 2 rounds on target.
So I don't get all the doubt recently. It's been this way since forever. Since HTH rooms have had F3 enabled all the way back in AH1. It's just a fact. More power to folks if they're just learning it now, but this is old news.
The news is old but the debate to eliminate it to fire guns in the MA and DA rages on! Use it to look around but some folks want the weapons disabled when using external view.
Changeup
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Using f3 mode in a il2 in my book is a cheat and htc should make it so that you cannot drop eggs or fire guns in any plane in f3 mode.
Just my opinion of course, but I have seen this abused when an Il2 pulled off a 90 degree deflection shot on my p47 that was traveling at over 450mph. Its the same players doing it time and time again.
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F3 mode I would imagine is just like an arcade version of playing a flight sim where you are seeing the whole plane from the tail end perspective. Seems the Stuka and IL-2 are the only two fighter/bombers this option is enabled on too. Seems we should either have all fighters/bombers set up this way or none. :salute
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Seems the Stuka and IL-2 are the only two fighter/bombers this option is enabled on too. Seems we should either have all fighters/bombers set up this way or none. :salute
Actually they are. because Both Stuka & Il-2 are not fighter/bombers. They are bomber/attackers. And all bombers do have F3, all fighters do not.
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Heres a question about the F3 controversy:
In F1 view, if you default your head position crouched all the way down so technicaly your as low as your instruments, would face shots result in pilot wounds, kills or would the bullets bypass you?
Would switching to F3 automaticly put the pilot in the default head position?
I say this because in F1, you crouch down then fly and gun in F3 mode, would this give you somewhat of an advantage?
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Heres a question about the F3 controversy:
In F1 view, if you default your head position crouched all the way down so technicaly your as low as your instruments, would face shots result in pilot wounds, kills or would the bullets bypass you?
It doesn't matter.
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It doesn't matter.
This is why you get paid the big bucks Snail :rofl
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Actually they are. because Both Stuka & Il-2 are not fighter/bombers. They are bomber/attackers. And all bombers do have F3, all fighters do not.
Was the attack category invented to help scoring? It seems to me that ATTACK is merely the "gray area" where AH attorney types can work the system without really commiting to anything :aok
Seems to me FIGHTER and BOMBER categories are all that is needed. Just divide plane types into these 2 categories! ie. P47s
D11-fighter
D25-bomber
D40-bomber
N - bomber
M - fighter
It seems any group of planes could be divided as such!
JUGgler
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Was the attack category invented to help scoring? It seems to me that ATTACK is merely the "gray area" where AH attorney types can work the system without really commiting to anything :aok
Seems to me FIGHTER and BOMBER categories are all that is needed. Just divide plane types into these 2 categories! ie. P47s
D11-fighter
D25-bomber
D40-bomber
N - bomber
M - fighter
It seems any group of planes could be divided as such!
JUGgler
Sorry hijacking my own thread there :)
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Was the attack category invented to help scoring? It seems to me that ATTACK is merely the "gray area" where AH attorney types can work the system without really commiting to anything :aok
Seems to me FIGHTER and BOMBER categories are all that is needed. Just divide plane types into these 2 categories! ie. P47s
D11-fighter
D25-bomber
D40-bomber
N - bomber
M - fighter
It seems any group of planes could be divided as such!
JUGgler
You forgot the B38 :uhoh
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You forgot the B38 :uhoh
G - fighter
J - fighter
L - bomber
;)
JUGgler
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This is why you get paid the big bucks Snail :rofl
Personally, I would've fired him for his stupid caps idea. not joking!
Jug, where do I sign up for week 3 and stayout of the la7gey!
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Heres a question about the F3 controversy:
There is no controversy. It is just that some people have never been wrong in their life and they are not about to start now :lol
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Was the attack category invented to help scoring? It seems to me that ATTACK is merely the "gray area" where AH attorney types can work the system without really commiting to anything :aok
:lol
Yes, "attack" is just an additional scoring category. All planes in AH arr either fighters or bombers basically. After all, no matter if you chose "fighter" "attack" or "bomber" to score in, all your earned perks will go to your planes primal category: Bomber or fighter.
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Jug, where do I sign up for week 3 and stayout of the la7gey!
I will ask for volunteers on 200, if Drbones' stories make me want to beat myself in the head with a hammer :)
JUGgler
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Actually they are. because Both Stuka & Il-2 are not fighter/bombers. They are bomber/attackers. And all bombers do have F3, all fighters do not.
True, you know what I meant. :furious :salute
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htc should make it so that you cannot drop eggs or fire guns in any plane in F3 mode.
yes plainly! no firing in F3, no F5 view at all.
havent seen any reasonable argument for being able to fire in F3, or for having F5 enabled at all.
dont know why this hasnt been fixed yet :headscratch:
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dont know why this hasnt been fixed yet :headscratch:
Maybe because HT doesn't see this as a bug? ;)
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Maybe because HT doesn't see this as a bug? ;)
True...its a ridiculous, unnecessary crutch that provides pile-its with a Galaga-style, gamey advantage for SA, 180 degree vision, and aerial gunnery. I would take a compromise...leave it in the appropriate a/c in the DA and MA, just disable guns unless you're in the cockpit. They can have their SA advantage...just don't let them fire with it.
Changeup
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Well F-3 may not be a bug but it is sure a massive advantage to the guy using it. If you don't think so go to the DA and record a few fights. I call F-3 mode the Garden Hose Effect. Just spray and adjust the stream to your target. It is just that simple and no real skill required.
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Maybe because HT doesn't see this as a bug? ;)
Power ups for my plane in mid flight would not be a bug either. Lets do it :rofl
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JUGgler for pete's sake, stop using F1 cockpit view..... Use F2, it's MUCH better!:aok
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JUGgler for pete's sake, stop using F1 cockpit view..... Use F2, it's MUCH better!:aok
There's an F2? :huh :huh :headscratch: :uhoh
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I will ask for volunteers on 200, if Drbones' stories make me want to beat myself in the head with a hammer :)
JUGgler
nah when i am done Jug you will wish you never went through with this ;)
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JUGgler for pete's sake, stop using F1 cockpit view..... Use F2, it's MUCH better!:aok
What does f2 do? :headscratch:
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Was the attack category invented to help scoring? It seems to me that ATTACK is merely the "gray area" where AH attorney types can work the system without really commiting to anything :aok
If there wasn't an attack category a lot of fighter pilots who don't care about bombing defenseless GV's and toolsheds would suddenly look like they suck.
I do think all attack/fighters should default to attack when ord is strapped on and default to fighter when there's none.
As to the original thread no F3 in the IL2 (or A20) means no way to see behind you. And isn't the A20 an attack plane? It's got F3 enabled.
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Coming soon...Aces High for the XBOX 360!
(http://www.southfloridapersonalinjurylawyerblog.com/Xbox-360.jpg)
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Coming soon...Aces High for the XBOX 360!
(http://www.southfloridapersonalinjurylawyerblog.com/Xbox-360.jpg)
Don't get me started :cry
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I do think all attack/fighters should default to attack when ord is strapped on and default to fighter when there's none.
Agreed ..and so much more.
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I feel like your results may be invalid because as you fly the il2 you are also improving your familiarity with the il2 and bound to improve over the month despite the view you use.
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I do think all attack/fighters should default to attack when ord is strapped on and default to fighter when there's none.
So why wouldn't the folks who game Attack mode just strap on some bombs and then dump them on the runway before rolling? I'm not clear how your proposed solution solves anything.
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I feel like your results may be invalid because as you fly the il2 you are also improving your familiarity with the il2 and bound to improve over the month despite the view you use.
I actually thought of that, sooooooo I will do F3 the 1st week. So my added 1 week experience will skew the results in favor of F1 view.
So if F3 shows better in all categories there will be only 1 reason for it! :aok
JUGgler
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I do think all attack/fighters should default to attack when ord is strapped on
yes :aok
... and default to fighter when there's none.
cant really do that, some planes are used (correctly) for strafing and may not have ords on board.
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So why wouldn't the folks who game Attack mode just strap on some bombs and then dump them on the runway before rolling? I'm not clear how your proposed solution solves anything.
It solves nothing. There should be 2 categories---> Fighter (if you're shootin down baddies) and Bomber (if you're droppin bombs for any reason from any aircraft)
This one change would shore up the shedding in both categories in my opinion, or just make Attack and Fighter modes reflect on each other!
I see folks with great fighter score that could never beat most of the folks I fight in the DA, it seems they work the vulch when it's time to "score-up" in fighter mode! <---that cheapens it in some way to me!
JUGgler
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I see folks with great fighter score that could never beat most of the folks I fight in the DA, it seems they work the vulch when it's time to "score-up" in fighter mode! <---that cheapens it in some way to me!
not necessarily, its different skill sets. great SA is essential in MAs, not so in a DA 1v1. thats why some of the DA princesses whine about lack of 1v1s and getting picked in the MAs.
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I see folks with great fighter score that could never beat most of the folks I fight in the DA, it seems they work the vulch when it's time to "score-up" in fighter mode! <---that cheapens it in some way to me!
Take Fighter score for what it is. You'll never have a score that perfectly reflects your own view of what defines "good." Almost any system rewards vulching or wingman tactics, and those who want to game their stats by switching between Fighter and Attack modes will always find a way around restrictions. Your best bet is to just realize the flaws in the system and take any ranking with a grain of salt.
That said, I just looked at the top 20 ranked fighter pilots for this tour, and many of them strike me as excellent duelists.
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So why wouldn't the folks who game Attack mode just strap on some bombs and then dump them on the runway before rolling? I'm not clear how your proposed solution solves anything.
It doesn't solve the "problem" of gaming the score by flying in attack mode but it does solve the problem of forgetting to change modes in the hanger before take-off.
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It doesn't solve the "problem" of gaming the score by flying in attack mode but it does solve the problem of forgetting to change modes in the hanger before take-off.
That's only a problem if you forget. Don't forget, and it's not a problem. :)
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Take Fighter score for what it is. You'll never have a score that perfectly reflects your own view of what defines "good." Almost any system rewards vulching or wingman tactics, and those who want to game their stats by switching between Fighter and Attack modes will always find a way around restrictions. Your best bet is to just realize the flaws in the system and take any ranking with a grain of salt.
That said, I just looked at the top 20 ranked fighter pilots for this tour, and many of them strike me as excellent duelists.
just curious but i heard you use to be the best ingame stick at 1 point :)
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just curious but i heard you use to be the best ingame stick at 1 point :)
Nah, he always flew a dweebfire, always came in with a full squad protecting him, and always run in the spitV if he got below 10K
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Nah, he always flew a dweebfire, always came in with a full squad protecting him, and always run in the spitV if he got below 10K
This. Always this.
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Nah, he always flew a dweebfire, always came in with a full squad protecting him, and always run in the spitV if he got below 10K
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Better :)
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out of line change the post :rolleyes:
:aok
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post a video from all three modes out of the videos you might record?
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post a video from all three modes out of the videos you might record?
And a video of him recording or the recording did not happen :old:
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Maybe because HT doesn't see this as a bug? ;)
It is just easier for them to apply the F3 view to a class of aircraft rather than looking at each plane individually, or modify the ability of the view commands to allow directional views only from the specific gunner position.
Regarding VIEWS.... tell me why the Il-2 and the Bf110 do not have the same external views???
Under the current parameters (F3, F5, F8 views for ALL bombers), I've always championed that the F3 view should only be applied to aircraft with level bombing capability (bomb sight) AND rear gunners. IMO, under the current settings there are "bombers" that have F3 capability that deserve it no more than a fighter. Some with say "but the Il-2 has poor views from inside the cockpit", which is true. However, the reason for that is the extra protection the pilot has in armor. There is a trade off. One of the biggest hypocrisies of the game is the Mossi B Mk XVI and the Mossi FB MK VI. Same exact views. Same. No argument. Yet, one is afforded the F3 view and the other is not. Why??? Because of an unrelated performance classification.
The Il-2, SBD, D3a, Stuka, and Mossi B Mk XVI all need to have the F3 capability removed, imo. They do not need it and in fact the Il-2 gains a large advantage for having it.
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You got it Smokinloon F-3 is a major advantage in the planes you listed as well as any fighter in the DA. F-3 is why the DA crowd can't duplicate their shooting skills in the MA and you rarely see them out of the DA for the same reason. Without F-3 mode the DA would be a ghost town.
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I was just wondering R105, have you considered the possibility that there are other reasons why some players might tend to stay in the DA? Have you ever asked in there who is using F3 to fight and who isn't?
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I can tell you most are using F-3 just by the fantastic deflection shoots made there and If you confront them about it they all plea innocence. Go to the DA and record a few fights and see for yourself. I call it the garden Hose effect.
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So why wouldn't the folks who game Attack mode just strap on some bombs and then dump them on the runway before rolling? I'm not clear how your proposed solution solves anything.
Dead!
Get back in game bro :D
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real simple, when flying in F3 mode and you squeeze the trigger it sends you back to the cockpit view, sorry Xbox crowd
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I was just wondering R105, have you considered the possibility that there are other reasons why some players might tend to stay in the DA? Have you ever asked in there who is using F3 to fight and who isn't?
you think they would admit if there were using it? no way to prove it in a Video, using F3 to fight is using a crutch, this aint Xbox
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you think they would admit if there were using it? no way to prove it in a Video, using F3 to fight is using a crutch, this aint Xbox
2 more days and I will begin to find out :aok
Not so sure "using a crutch" is the correct analogy, Anyone I've ever known with a crutch I could run faster than! :bolt: :D
JUGgler
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2 more days and I will begin to find out :aok
Not so sure "using a crutch" is the correct analogy, Anyone I've ever known with a crutch I could run faster than! :bolt: :D
JUGgler
And when you start using F3, they WILL run faster than you!!
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I can tell you most are using F-3 just by the fantastic deflection shoots made there and If you confront them about it they all plea innocence. Go to the DA and record a few fights and see for yourself. I call it the garden Hose effect.
IMHO, you're making a lot of fuss in the wrong area, if your fights are degrading to the point where your opponent has a tracking guns solution on you, you should probably resign yourself to a good pasting, see if you can pull off a reversal of fortune and consider what you might do next time to NOT get yourself into that position. Just re-up and try a different approach. Taking away the 'garden hose' function is not going to improve your ACM.
Under the nose tracking shots are still very possible without F3. If you slide your head to the extreme side, you only need a slight roll and a second or two to observe the flightpath before making a very good estimation of their position and the necessary tracking solution.
you think they would admit if there were using it? no way to prove it in a Video, using F3 to fight is using a crutch, this aint Xbox
Respectfully, aren't you being a little paranoid? Why wouldn't they admit it if they never leave the DA and it is enabled there? Do you see my point? You are trying to paint the picture of the DA regulars as being there only so they can use F3 mode and they deny it to make themselves look good to the non DA regulars. That's really not the impression I get, I really don't think they care. To some people Aces High is a simulation and to some it is just a game.
Referring back to the question I posed to R105, a lot of my friends that stay in the DA play on computers that can't cope with the MA, others have very limited time and don't wish to waste it searching for a fight in the MA. Another group are avid F3 mode fliers, mostly ex H2H refugees who will freely admit to using it when asked. I don't consider any of those F3 players to have gunnery skills that exceed those who have mastered the aerial gunnery of Aces High. I'd rather be trying to evade or reverse one of them, than being under the guns of Bruv119, MtnMan or Grizz for example.
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no way to prove it in a Video
.ahf movies show exactly which views are used, unless the person is using trackIR.
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Actually they are. because Both Stuka & Il-2 are not fighter/bombers. They are bomber/attackers. And all bombers do have F3, all fighters do not.
Really??? all this time and all the fun I had dog fighting in a stuka Swiss-Cheesing other planes with the .303? my heart is broken, long live the Stuka fighter plane, (f-88?)
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Nrshida my point has nothing to do with the DA. I am just using it as the most glaring example of the advantage of F-3. Yes I think people go to the DA for F-3 to look like super pilots without the time and trouble to learn ACM. It is their $14.95 and if that is what they want to do well that is on them. While I know some guys don't fight in F-3 there most do. I would just like it if when you pull the trigger you go back to F-1 mode at least in the MA.
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IMHO, you're making a lot of fuss in the wrong area, if your fights are degrading to the point where your opponent has a tracking guns solution on you, you should probably resign yourself to a good pasting, see if you can pull off a reversal of fortune and consider what you might do next time to NOT get yourself into that position. Just re-up and try a different approach. Taking away the 'garden hose' function is not going to improve your ACM.
Under the nose tracking shots are still very possible without F3. If you slide your head to the extreme side, you only need a slight roll and a second or two to observe the flightpath before making a very good estimation of their position and the necessary tracking solution.
Respectfully, aren't you being a little paranoid? Why wouldn't they admit it if they never leave the DA and it is enabled there? Do you see my point? You are trying to paint the picture of the DA regulars as being there only so they can use F3 mode and they deny it to make themselves look good to the non DA regulars. That's really not the impression I get, I really don't think they care. To some people Aces High is a simulation and to some it is just a game.
Referring back to the question I posed to R105, a lot of my friends that stay in the DA play on computers that can't cope with the MA, others have very limited time and don't wish to waste it searching for a fight in the MA. Another group are avid F3 mode fliers, mostly ex H2H refugees who will freely admit to using it when asked. I don't consider any of those F3 players to have gunnery skills that exceed those who have mastered the aerial gunnery of Aces High. I'd rather be trying to evade or reverse one of them, than being under the guns of Bruv119, MtnMan or Grizz for example.
Nrshida,
With all due respet, that's too much timeand how do you improve one's ACM when under normal circumstances you could have manuevered out of a kill that otherwise might not have happened....only you don't know you would have because your dead? Flying against an F3 guy will never reinforce what might work, therefore the learning curve is much much slower..trust me...I flew F3 for a year in the DA and never went to the MA and it was a miserable transition but I was a HELL OF SHOT in the DA!! rotflmao
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Interesting experiment JUG but it's impossible to control all the variables of the Main Arena. Getting accurate results will be impossible.
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I can tell you most are using F-3 just by the fantastic deflection shoots made there and If you confront them about it they all plea innocence. Go to the DA and record a few fights and see for yourself. I call it the garden Hose effect.
That used to be my MA bread and butter that I started working on in AW in 1996. I rarely missed an under the nose lead shot in the MA and there's no F3 enabled there.
I think you need to practice before jumping to conclusions.
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Interesting experiment JUG but it's impossible to control all the variables of the Main Arena. Getting accurate results will be impossible.
It should be easy. Without F3 his SA will be so bad that he will die before even thinking about shooting at anyone.
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Dedalos - I'm saying every fight he finds himself will be different, thus contaminating the data and making an accurate depiction of it impossible.
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That used to be my MA bread and butter that I started working on in AW in 1996. I rarely missed an under the nose lead shot in the MA and there's no F3 enabled there.
I think you need to practice before jumping to conclusions.
Ok but the ones you DID miss were probably because you didn't see them slip out from underneath your nose by starting their flat turn and ruddering toward the ground, pushing the stick forward after seeing or hearing your shots, wait one second and then push down or flat turn the other direction or pull up. F3 lets you see your bogey make those moves and not escape...there isn't really any arguing it.
Ok...so if I stipulate that F3 doesn't improve aerial gunnery that much then will you stipulate that it DOES improve SA enough to not mitigate the small amount of improved aerial gunnery?
Changeup
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Dedalos - I'm saying every fight he finds himself will be different, thus contaminating the data and making an accurate depiction of it impossible.
Yeah, we agree. I m just saying that the data will be contaminated even more by the lack of flying time when not in F3.
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Dedalos - I'm saying every fight he finds himself will be different, thus contaminating the data and making an accurate depiction of it impossible.
Actually the variable should be fairly controllable and consistant ie,
1- Always upping at the base with the biggest red dar
2- Allowing myself to be vulched a maximum of 3 times then move on
3- Always fighting the "disadvantaged" fight ie, never "basecamping"
4- Never going over say 3K agl
Just examples, also hit% and kills per hour/sortie should be a good indicator "no matter" the fight regime of "improved gunnery"
Kill/death ratio will be an excellent indicator of SA IMO.
I really don't see the experiment getting skewed to favorably by any variables!
JUGgler
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Nrshida,
With all due respet, that's too much timeand how do you improve one's ACM when under normal circumstances you could have manuevered out of a kill that otherwise might not have happened....only you don't know you would have because your dead? Flying against an F3 guy will never reinforce what might work, therefore the learning curve is much much slower..trust me...I flew F3 for a year in the DA and never went to the MA and it was a miserable transition but I was a HELL OF SHOT in the DA!! rotflmao
I know you did Changeup, we have a mutual friend. I think relative ACM is analogous to staying on the top of a very large slippery ball, the further you get from the very top the harder you have to work to get back to that position. If you're already close to the receiving end of a tracking guns solution then you probably aren't going to pull it back anyway in a 1 on 1. If it's a third, fourth or fifth party, well, poo poo happens. The more advanced your ACM becomes the more and more advantage you can afford to give an opponent at the start of a fight, but I think we were discussing beginners in this case?
Well, respectfully I can't agree that it stifles your learning necessarily because I also came up through the DA and I think my ACM is progressing alright.
That used to be my MA bread and butter that I started working on in AW in 1996. I rarely missed an under the nose lead shot in the MA and there's no F3 enabled there.
I think you need to practice before jumping to conclusions.
I agree with BaldEagl. This shot used to account for 90% of my shots also, when I was a noob-tard Zero stick. Perhaps I have a few films left over, I'll have a look.
Ironically I'm not supporting the F3 mode. I myself think it subtracts from the immerse effect and certainly does enhance SA at least. Remove it as far as I am concerned, but there will be a lot of complaints from a lot of disgruntled long term players. Some of whom I consider friends and do not post or read the forums.
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Really??? all this time and all the fun I had dog fighting in a stuka Swiss-Cheesing other planes with the .303? my heart is broken, long live the Stuka fighter plane, (f-88?)
Yes, really. The designers of the Ju87 and Il-2 had no intention of air to air combat when they were designed and neither were implemented into "fighter" squadrons for air to air use (no fighter squadrons that I've read about, that it). They both were meant to proved direct support to ground forces.
You can dog fight in any aircraft and just because you have an advantage in a category or 2 does not make it in the same category (i.e. "fighter"). The D3a is still the tightest turning aircraft in the game, but who can you out gun, out climb, out run, and out roll other than the B5N?
Please remember that the Stuka, nor any other aircraft in AH other than the British aircraft fire the .303 British cartridge in their guns. The Ju-87 like the rest of the German aircraft fired their standardized 8mm (7.9mm) Mauser. Another .30 caliber mind you, but none the less certainly NOT a .303 British. ;)
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If you're already close to the receiving end of a tracking guns solution then you probably aren't going to pull it back anyway in a 1 on 1. If it's a third, fourth or fifth party, well, poo poo happens. The more advanced your ACM becomes the more and more advantage you can afford to give an opponent at the start of a fight, but I think we were discussing beginners in this case?
Well, respectfully I can't agree that it stifles your learning necessarily because I also came up through the DA and I think my ACM is progressing alright.
I agree with BaldEagl. This shot used to account for 90% of my shots also, when I was a noob-tard Zero stick. Perhaps I have a few films left over, I'll have a look.
Ironically I'm not supporting the F3 mode. I myself think it subtracts from the immerse effect and certainly does enhance SA at least. Remove it as far as I am concerned, but there will be a lot of complaints from a lot of disgruntled long term players. Some of whom I consider friends and do not post or read the forums.
Stifle is a bit too strong...my suggestion was more appropriate feedback with the end result being 'to learn". If I keep practicing something wrongly...I just get real good and doing it wrong, thus the learning curve is much steeper when forced to recognize that it was being done wrong...as in moving to the MA where guys don't just flat turn forever until you kill them. I should have said it differently...F3 users have to re-educate themselves on gunnery, SA and depth perception. To me, having to learn those things the correct way is causal to using F3.
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Threads like this are hilarious to me.
I won't comment about the DA, because I don't fly there.
But in the MAs, whether F3 gives an advantage or not, whether fair or not, whether you believe it is consistent or not, the fact remains . . . if you actually allow yourself to be shot down by an IL-2, you screwed up, period. The plane is not an anti-aircraft weapon of any sort, unless you allow it to be, through poor SA or making a significant ACM mistake.
All the rest of the rationalization, excuse making, whining and stamping of feet is just to sooth bruised egos because someone allowed a slow, fat, dumb bomber to pwn him.
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Threads like this are hilarious to me.
I won't comment about the DA, because I don't fly there.
But in the MAs, whether F3 gives an advantage or not, whether fair or not, whether you believe it is consistent or not, the fact remains . . . if you actually allow yourself to be shot down by an IL-2, you screwed up, period. The plane is not an anti-aircraft weapon of any sort, unless you allow it to be, through poor SA or making a significant ACM mistake.
All the rest of the rationalization, excuse making, whining and stamping of feet is just to sooth bruised egos because someone allowed a slow, fat, dumb bomber to pwn him.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion...its worth exactly what we paid for it.
Changeup
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I don't about the IL-2 I get guys that HO when I am in an IL-2 and that 37mm makes short work out of any fighter F-3 or not.