Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rvflyer on January 02, 2011, 06:39:47 PM
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:airplane: While the control input respond in somewhat the same manner as "real life" airplanes that is where the similarity stops.
I can fly my RL RV-6 airplane all day long and never look at an instrument and know exactly what it is doing. In RL flying you
have "seat of the pants" as we call it feel for aircraft movements. You can tell if an airplane is in a climb or in a dive just
by the sound of the engine and by how heavy or light the feel of the controls are which is a good thing. In my RV-6 control
"feel" is very light at cruse speed and lower. When I get to speeds over 200mph they have an extremely heavy feel to
them, this is good the heavy control makes it harder make quick control inputs that tend to pull the wings off by over stressing
the airframe.
You are much more aware of outside visual reference than you are in AH that makes it much easier to constantly be aware
of your surroundings.
My reason for this is as a real life flight instructor you would think that after six years I would start having better than just
average scores and K/D ratio. the problem as I see it is that I try to fly AH airplanes and make them behave the same as
RL airplanes, and even knowing it is a cartoon airplane it is a hard thing to overcome.
Thoughts from other RL pilots?
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Fly them like Aces High virutal airplanes. You're trying to incorporate a sense of keeping an airplane within its limitations against someone who doesn't know what the first limitation might be on their virtual airplane. They've spent years mastering their craft in the virtual aerial battlefield within the Aces High world and until you match their determination in this world you won't achieve that goal of beating them regularly.
If they need to learn S Turns along a road they'll look you up.
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There are no similarities. Do not try to mesh the two together cuz it is impossible. My Luscombe is a bit of a handful in the wind, there is no wind in AH.
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AH is not a simulator. It is a game based on simulator principles.
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well im not a RL pilot been in an airplane once, been flying in AH since 04, the one time I got into a real plane was my 40th B day I took up a super decathlonI taxied down the runway perfectly lifted off and flew that thing like Ive been flying for years,once we got to the area we could do some areobatics I did a fast roll, a barrel roll, nosed down for some speed and did a loop, now even before the flight the instructor tried to explain the dials but I new them already, it was truly second nature, the couple differences I noticed were the rudder peddels were much harder to press in the real thing, and I dont puke when I fly AH because after the loop I got crazy dizzy, my vision got way out of whack, and I puked and I mean hard puking lol, I figure if I did it a few times those feelings would stop happening lol. one of the most overewhelming moments of my life absolutly amazing. I know with out my history in AH I would not have been able to do what I did.
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wind
Biggest difference, I find.
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there is no wind in AH.
There is plenty of wind in AH; mostly confined to channel 200 and the forums. :devil
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There is plenty of wind in AH; mostly confined to channel 200 and the forums. :devil
:rofl
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What exactly does real life flying has to do with dog fighting or virtual dog fighting? :uhoh Are you guys stall fighting your planes at 300 feet of the floor in real life? :lol I don;t see how the two can compare. I can see how tactics from a real fighter pilot may be implemented but my guess would be that they would only go as far as stay high and stay fast. Meaning, geared towards surviving and getting back home.
There is no comparison between the two
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the first time anyone feels g forces in an aircraft, they are overwhelmed. 3 g's is the max you EVER pull on a roller coaster, and for a very limited time.
In a real aircraft you may pull 4-5 in some maneuvers for a short period of time, and hold 3g's for extended amounts of time. After a bit your vision will narrow a bit and focus can get a bit fuzzy. with experience in aerobatics you can counter this after awhile, but it does take practice.
The control feel of the aircraft at the edge, and into a stall is mushy and often unresponsive. On the opposite end of the spectrum 3+ g bottom of the arc maneuver they get very "heavy" . best way to explain it is, You have a small rowboat in the water attached to a rope while you are on land. in the water, no movement no pull. start the movement you meet resistance but still easy to pull. as the boat hits land you have to pull harder.
The other BIG factor in the g-force equation is that if you are 200 lbs and you pull 2 g's at 5 your a world record weight holder! goes for an arm too gotta get accustomed to holding double and more the weight of your arm.
I'll bet the people that have some of the hardest times in this game are people that know and experience flight dynamics for real, it may take them more time to adjust to the virtual world. "feel" of the controls CANNOT be replaced.
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I AH, I'm never quite as attentive to how healthy the engine is sounding or what the dials are saying as I approach rotate speed as I am in RL. On the other hand, every time I'm told to 'line up and wait', I'm constantly looking for wayward Cessna's or Southwest 737's on final in much the same way I'm looking out for vulching Dora's so there are some similarities... :D
On the whole though, I think Ink is pretty close in that if you have played AH, you will be pretty comfortable in a piston single trainer. You wont be at Practical Test Standards but you'll be well ahead of someone starting from scratch.
As for wind, although its not used in the MA's, AH wind can be challenging. Trying setting a 20 knot crosswind in offline practice and land a Spitfire in a way that would work in real life. Its not easy.
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I AH, I'm never quite as attentive to how healthy the engine is sounding or what the dials are saying as I approach rotate speed as I am in RL. On the other hand, every time I'm told to 'line up and wait', I'm constantly looking for wayward Cessna's or Southwest 737's on final in much the same way I'm looking out for vulching Dora's so there are some similarities... :D
On the whole though, I think Ink is pretty close in that if you have played AH, you will be pretty comfortable in a piston single trainer. You wont be at Practical Test Standards but you'll be well ahead of someone starting from scratch.
As for wind, although its not used in the MA's, AH wind can be challenging. Trying setting a 20 knot crosswind in offline practice and land a Spitfire in a way that would work in real life. Its not easy.
:airplane: True wind is a big factor for takeoff and landing, but in flight airplane has no idea which way wind is blowing or how fast.
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On the whole though, I think Ink is pretty close in that if you have played AH, you will be pretty comfortable in a piston single trainer.
I agree with this.
Never understood why some RL drivers seemed so intent on suggesting that such a massive divide exists between the two.
Absolutely, there are thousands of little things that AH simply cannot simulate, and I do not mean to suggest that one would be able to land a 747 if the pilot suffered a stroke... but the basic mechanics of flight, insomuch as they translate from your brain, through your body and to the control inputs, is the same.
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I agree with this.
Never understood why some RL drivers seemed so intent on suggesting that such a massive divide exists between the two.
Absolutely, there are thousands of little things that AH simply cannot simulate, and I do not mean to suggest that one would be able to land a 747 if the pilot suffered a stroke... but the basic mechanics of flight, insomuch as they translate from your brain, through your body and to the control inputs, is the same.
Ahhhhhh sorry , but no. Those thousands of things your brain has to translate have to be learned in the real world. An experienced pilot in a trainer doesn't jump into a twin without training, nor does he transfer from a twin to turbine. All have their good and bad characteristics. AH WILL NOT prepare you for flying a trainer, please don't think it will, you are very mistaken. what it does help with is the terminology in relation to some aircraft instruments and such things. Most of the new trainers out there have glass cockpits, they have dispensed with the old steam gauges.
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I never flew RL but Ive been flying r/c for about 7 years when I got this game it took me about 6 weeks to not turn the wrong way when someone had sneaked onto my 6,Im not good at this game, Im not great at r/c either but I love em both.
youve either got it or you havent,I havent and I dont care. :D
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Ahhhhhh sorry , but no. Those thousands of things your brain has to translate have to be learned in the real world. An experienced pilot in a trainer doesn't jump into a twin without training, nor does he transfer from a twin to turbine. All have their good and bad characteristics. AH WILL NOT prepare you for flying a trainer, please don't think it will, you are very mistaken. what it does help with is the terminology in relation to some aircraft instruments and such things. Most of the new trainers out there have glass cockpits, they have dispensed with the old steam gauges.
Totally disagree with you and as a student pilot I'm basing this on my actual experience. The first time I sat in a trainer, the only thing I didn't do in terms of actually flying the aircraft was fly short final to touch down. I was prepared to have to dial in right rudder on take off, I knew what to expect if I moved the stick in a certain way, I knew what the CFI was talking about if he mentioned roll, pitch, yaw, trim, flaps, slips, stalls etc.
Was it polished? No.
Did I know anything about the hundreds of other things necessary to be a real-life pilot like airspace, communications, engine management, weather, FAR 91.whatever etc etc? Absolutely not.
Could I have done the same thing in a more advanced aircraft? Almost certainly not.
No one's suggesting AH equips you with everything you need to be a real life pilot, but most competent AH2 pilots will be able to maneuver a real life trainer in fair weather around the sky without augering - at least until it runs out of gas.
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I was thinking about this some more, another difference, I use the CH fighter stick and all the sim sticks are self centering, unlike the plane I flew I remember having to reach down and pulling the stick up, not self centering, every tiny movement in the Decathalon made the plane move, it felt like I was constintly on a roller coaster going down, that stomach in throat feeling, the guy that took me up said you cant feel the wind, he has been flying since he was 9, he was 22, wassnt thrilled at that but he was great, I told him about my AH career, he was actually quite suprized at how well I did, the whole vertigo thing though is a huge aspect that we cannot get from AH, I must say this also, when the tires lifted off I was over come by emotions to the point of tears absolutly amazing, just the birth of my kids was more moving. Cant wait to go up again. I Envy all you that fly every day.
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There are no similarities. Do not try to mesh the two together cuz it is impossible. My Luscombe is a bit of a handful in the wind, there is no wind in AH.
sure there is....sometimes. ya just gotta know where to look for it.
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There is plenty of wind in AH; mostly confined to channel 200 and the forums. :devil
there is a place in which there is wind which effects the flight of yhour cartoon aircraft too.
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:airplane: True wind is a big factor for takeoff and landing, but in flight airplane has no idea which way wind is blowing or how fast.
you want to fly a heading of 270. wind is 300@19. i somehow think that'll affect the plane in flight. :devil :neener:
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Ahhhhhh sorry , but no. Those thousands of things your brain has to translate have to be learned in the real world. An experienced pilot in a trainer doesn't jump into a twin without training, nor does he transfer from a twin to turbine. All have their good and bad characteristics. AH WILL NOT prepare you for flying a trainer, please don't think it will, you are very mistaken. what it does help with is the terminology in relation to some aircraft instruments and such things. Most of the new trainers out there have glass cockpits, they have dispensed with the old steam gauges.
You are welcome to your opinion, of course, and please don't read any animosity into this, but your post is an example of what I was referring to - you disagree, but you do it from an "I'm a REAL pilot" ivory tower and don't offer much reasoning beyond "because."
My experience was and has been very different from yours. I recall my first "real" VFR flight vividly (who doesn't?) and I think Wooley very nicely summed up what I would have written, below. Like him, I was given a relatively larger degree of control over the airplane at a relatively accelerated pace and I was asked by my CFI, on two occasions that day, if it was really my first time. After takeoff, the only thing he took the airplane back for were touch-downs, final approaches and landing.
He wanted a constant speed? No problem. Climb to this altitude? No problem. Turn to this heading? Ok. Run a few patterns? Sure. Descend and come about to line up with the tarmac? Got it.
As has been stated, no one is suggesting that AH will allow you to properly navigate, communicate, file flight plans, manage the intricacies of the airplane's operating systems, etc, etc, but, at the end of the day, you've got a stick, a throttle and a pair of pedals in a real airplane. As I type this, I've got the same stuff around my desk.
While my desk may not pull 3G's and while I don't have to worry about tying down the speakers so they don't hit the ceiling while my cartoon airplane is inverted, I'd wager that 75% of the guys playing this game could take a single-engine trainer and keep it in the air just fine.
Totally disagree with you and as a student pilot I'm basing this on my actual experience. The first time I sat in a trainer, the only thing I didn't do in terms of actually flying the aircraft was fly short final to touch down. I was prepared to have to dial in right rudder on take off, I knew what to expect if I moved the stick in a certain way, I knew what the CFI was talking about if he mentioned roll, pitch, yaw, trim, flaps, slips, stalls etc.
Was it polished? No.
Did I know anything about the hundreds of other things necessary to be a real-life pilot like airspace, communications, engine management, weather, FAR 91.whatever etc etc? Absolutely not.
Could I have done the same thing in a more advanced aircraft? Almost certainly not.
No one's suggesting AH equips you with everything you need to be a real life pilot, but most competent AH2 pilots will be able to maneuver a real life trainer in fair weather around the sky without augering - at least until it runs out of gas.
:aok
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ahh man.. you mean that if I do my 109 rudder/roll reversals, that snap the nose around very quickly, after zooming up in a rolling scissors, I might choke on my own vomit and snap my neck in real life?
...ok so maybe there are some obvious similarities between AH and flying real aircraft, or even RC planes, but, beyond basic flying, I'd imagine most of the stuff we do in AH is fantasy land to the fullest degree... and no one does in real life, ever.
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My opinion, having done a small amount of civilian flying and having flown once at Air Combat USA, is that, once you are used to the different sensory modality of Aces High (feeling stalls and g's with auditory and visual cues instead of "seat of the pants" cues), Aces High is very close to reality.
In Air Combat USA, I went with two other folks: one an experienced Air Warrior pilot with very little time in real planes and one a commercially rated pilot with thousands of hours and no time in Air Warrior. The Air Warrior pilots were much better at air combat in those real planes than the commercially rated pilot.
Air combat vs. flying is like hockey vs. skating. You can be the world's greatest figure skater or speed skater yet not be good at hockey (not knowing stick handling, shooting, situational awareness, plays, checking, etc., which can take years to develop). The same is true of air combat -- you can be a great civilian pilot, but without developed skill in ACM (which is not a trivial amount of time to develop), you will not excel in AH.
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AH WILL NOT prepare you for flying a trainer, please don't think it will, you are very mistaken.
I think computer sims like AH help, but can be overrated. Certainly they gave me a good head start on landing perspectives, where the plane was going to touch down, how to control speed with pitch, that sort of thing. I continue to use them for instrument scan practice (hey, even climbing out of a base in AH2 gives you some time to do this).
I believe they're way OVER-rated when I see people typing things like "Dude, we would have been most excellent World War II pilots with all the hundreds of thousands of hours of computer sim training we've had. Bet I could have owned Adolf Galland or Johnnie Johnson or Saburo Sakai!" Computers don't model G forces, in particular, or turbulence or the strain of pulling on the stick through multiple maneuvers, or spotting and keeping track of a plane that doesn't have a glowing icon above it (...well...most places in AH2 don't....), things that in a real aerobatic combat environment are critical.
- oldman
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oldman missed one major point in regards to the ww2 pilots, ummm bullets really kill you in RL.....haha imagine tracers flying through the screen and removing ones head.....lol oh man that cracks me up....lol sorry gents wierd mood im in...
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I am not a real pilot. My Pop was and I spent a lot of time in the air with him (before I started flying a computer) in a Piper Tomahawk, Beech Musketeer, and an Ercoupe.
Iv'e taken the controls many times and while I don't believe this game is anywhere near adequate flight training, should I be flying in a small plane and for whatever reason I absolutely had to take the yoke or stick, I believe I have a greater chance of being able to bring the plane down and at least survive a crash landing than I did before I started flying sims.
I certainly wouldn't want to test this theory though.
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To me RL flying compared with AH differs some aspects:
I normally fly lightweight planes (VLA)
Rudder much more effective in AH than in RL. I compare a yak55 vs the radials we have in AH. ( only 30 mins stick time in yak)
Easy to get rid of speed landing in AH than RL , touches topic above.
Crosswind landings in gusts .....
Landing a tail-dragger on concrete is a handful RL, i prefer to land on grass with my Cub.
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I started playing AH 4 years prior to starting flight lessons, and it helped me out a bunch. On my first lesson I almost landed without any help from the instructor (almost :devil)
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I have never flown a r/l airplane.I have flown just about every flight sim that has been made.AH flight model is simple compared to Mickysofts flight simulator with the A2A add ons.You have to manually push and pull all the instruments just as in r/l and the torque is massive.Take offs and landings are hard.Input from r/l pilots claim it's as close to the real thing as one can possibly get.When I want to get challenged,I up the P-47 Razorback from Pocatello Regional,and try to make it to Jackson,WY,Idaho Falls,or Boise,w/o crashing.I find it a lot of fun,and It's probably as close to real flying as one can come.
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I too found that "playing" AH genre computer programs helped me when learning RL flying. I never cared much for the MS Flight sims and always preferred the combat sims. On my "Discovery flight" (a.k.a your first flying lesson) my CFI flew us to a quiet area and allowed me to take control of the Cessna 150. He proceeded with the lesson and we eventually wound up back at our airport. We entered the pattern and I kept expecting him to take back the controls. On touch down he laughed out loud and told me that he had never let a student handle the entire landing. He said every time he was about to take back control I would make the appropriate correction so he just continued to monitor me.
I feel the sims assisted me in being familiar with the steam gauges and basic runway picture on final. I also found during my training that flying with the hood on (flying by instruments only) was very simple (I had heard horror stories from other students about hood flying). Since AH relies on visual and audio cues only, I think it helps a RL pilot learn to trust the instruments a little more and "seat of the pants" a little less. Considering how the inner ear can trick you I think this is a good thing! Also you learn in combat flight sims to use rudder pedals to bring a wing up and increase your roll rate. This translates well into GA flying as a common problem with most students is to forget the rudder entirely.
I have been a GA pilot for ten years now and I have recommended to others that the best way to take flying lessons is to first read up on the subject and spend quite a few hours on a flight sim. It will not make you pilot, but it will help the learning curve and cut down how many hours of instruction you will need to get your certificate.
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Any flight simulator is an approximation of real flight. The best use of simulators is to run checklists and practice procedures, such as emergencies that would be impossible to practice in flight.
Aces high does not simulate aircraft systems in a meaningful way. It does allow folks to die repeatedly in a nicely modeled 3D environment with a variety of beautiful birds.
you want to fly a heading of 270. wind is 300@19. i somehow think that'll affect the plane in flight. :devil :neener:
Ground track will be affected. The air flow relative to the plane would not.
… but you do it from an "I'm a REAL pilot" ivory tower and don't offer much reasoning beyond "because."
Real life flying is not an ivory tower. It is a club with demanding requirements. I used to think anyone could fly a plane, until I became an instructor. I will concede that the self-selected group that plays AH would have a better than average chance of passing a flight check (after the real world training), but throwing just anyone into the left seat is a crap shoot.
Crosswind landings in gusts .....
Stiff cross wind landings are tough in any plane.
Since AH relies on visual and audio cues only, I think it helps a RL pilot learn to trust the instruments a little more and "seat of the pants" a little less. Considering how the inner ear can trick you I think this is a good thing!
Quoted for truth.
“Seat of the pants” flying is fatal. It has been romanticized over time, but it is not reliable. Sure, one can feel motion in a real airplane, but to rely on your senses completely will eventually kill you. JFK, Jr. is a classic case of inflight disorientation. One can drive a perfectly good airplane into the ground without “feeling” uncomfortable in the seat.
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Any flight simulator is an approximation of real flight. The best use of simulators is to run checklists and practice procedures, such as emergencies that would be impossible to practice in flight.
Aces high does not simulate aircraft systems in a meaningful way. It does allow folks to die repeatedly in a nicely modeled 3D environment with a variety of beautiful birds.
Ground track will be affected. The air flow relative to the plane would not.
Real life flying is not an ivory tower. It is a club with demanding requirements. I used to think anyone could fly a plane, until I became an instructor. I will concede that the self-selected group that plays AH would have a better than average chance of passing a flight check (after the real world training), but throwing just anyone into the left seat is a crap shoot.
Stiff cross wind landings are tough in any plane.
Quoted for truth.
“Seat of the pants” flying is fatal. It has been romanticized over time, but it is not reliable. Sure, one can feel motion in a real airplane, but to rely on your senses completely will eventually kill you. JFK, Jr. is a classic case of inflight disorientation. One can drive a perfectly good airplane into the ground without “feeling” uncomfortable in the seat.
that airflow is what will effect your ground track.
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...ok so maybe there are some obvious similarities between AH and flying real aircraft, or even RC planes, but, beyond basic flying, I'd imagine most of the stuff we do in AH is fantasy land to the fullest degree... and no one does in real life, ever.
I totally disagree. Flying dogfights at Air Combat USA was very similar to fights in Air Warrior and Aces High, with the same things that work in AH working in those fights in the real planes.
My view is that a pilot with lots of experience and skill in AH is at a large advantage in a real dogfight in real planes.
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I totally disagree. Flying dogfights at Air Combat USA was very similar to fights in Air Warrior and Aces High, with the same things that work in AH working in those fights in the real planes.
My view is that a pilot with lots of experience and skill in AH is at a large advantage in a real dogfight in real planes.
What moves did you do an 'Figthertown USA'?
I agree that the basic moves would apply, as well as the basic knowledge... ie how do do a barrel roll etc...
but.....
Unless you were hanging on your prop 200 feet above the ground, and taking extreme risks... I stand by what I said.
1) If you managed not to to auger, you would probably vomit all over yourself, as the engine rolled your ride and swung the nose down.
2) The physical strain of pulling Gs frequently and often doing post stall acms, would force you to stop.. (blurred vision, disorientation, extreme fatigue), After a good 1v1 DA fight, my wrist hurts, can't imagine what thats like on my body if I did it in real life.
3) As stated before, the rudder in AH is surprisingly effective. I have not flown a 109K4 in real life, but in AH, I can make a 109 fall sideways keeping the nose almost level, using the rudder. I can also, snap the nose up, at or just above stall speed, and then move the stick to the back-left corner to cause a upside down controlled flat spit which can be exited by giving more throttle, all of which would be suicidal in real life.
Or what about the Spit cartwheel move, where the airplane tumbles erratically? Sure, if the airplane was made out of super strong materials that didn't exist in WW2, but, I bet if you tried it in a spit, you'd ruin the airplane, and possible cause it snap its tail..
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What moves did you do an 'Figthertown USA'?
Just about everything I do in AH (and most of the 1-on-1 moves I read about in Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering, by Shaw) except losing control of the aircraft (although I don't do that often in AH either).
I agree that the basic moves would apply, as well as the basic knowledge... ie how do do a barrel roll etc...
but.....
Unless you were hanging on your prop 200 feet above the ground, and taking extreme risks... I stand by what I said.
Hanging on prop in a veritcal persuit included, but just not taking it all the way into a stall.
1) If you managed not to to auger, you would probably vomit all over yourself, as the engine rolled your ride and swung the nose down.
I think I did auger (virtually) once by going through the "hard deck" (an altitude they specify as being "the ground"). I didn't vomit, but I felt nauseated at times -- interestingly mostly when the instructor showed me some moves and I wasn't flying, and my nasea would go away or lessen when I was flying, even in aerobatics. My flying also included a brief blackout when the instructor came hammering back to base then slammed it into a more-than 6 g turn off the end of the runway (to scrub off speed) then right into a final (just like how I go in to land in AH, by the way) without letting me know he was going to do that. Since I didn't know he was going to slam it into such a turn, I didn't tense up and blacked out in about 1-2 seconds. I know it was more than 6 g's because when I came to, the g-limit beeper was beeping away and had to be reset.
2) The physical strain of pulling Gs frequently and often doing post stall acms, would force you to stop.. (blurred vision, disorientation, extreme fatigue), After a good 1v1 DA fight, my wrist hurts, can't imagine what thats like on my body if I did it in real life.
4 g's are not bad. 6 g's are some work, and over 6 can black you out quickly if you aren't prepared for it (or at least that's how it was for me). You don't pull more than 6 g's in AH dogfights much either. I had 4-5 dogfights and was fine.
3) As stated before, the rudder in AH is surprisingly effective. I have not flown a 109K4 in real life, but in AH, I can make a 109 fall sideways keeping the nose almost level, using the rudder. I can also, snap the nose up, at or just above stall speed, and then move the stick to the back-left corner to cause a upside down controlled flat spit which can be exited by giving more throttle, all of which would be suicidal in real life.
Or what about the Spit cartwheel move, where the airplane tumbles erratically? Sure, if the airplane was made out of super strong materials that didn't exist in WW2, but, I bet if you tried it in a spit, you'd ruin the airplane, and possible cause it snap its tail..
I almost never do stalls during my fighting in AH. Very occasionally I'll try it as the last thing in my repertoire once I've already basically lost the fight and have nothing left. It rarely works for me, as it just kills whatever energy you have left and loses you some altitude. I don't usually find it being all that effective when used against me either, but who knows -- maybe there are masters of it out there. I'm not saying I've fought everyone in the game, and I'm certainly not the best pilot in AH. I think of it as a desperation defense, not an offense like good management of E.
If we are talking about real airplanes and real combat, weird stall moves were used in a tiny fraction of real WWII fighting (tiny meaning approaching zero percent, but not exactly zero -- you can read an account of a pilot using it here and there out of the thousands of other accounts that don't involve it), and different planes handled that sort of thing differently (like in AH). Maybe it would have worked in the Marchetti I was flying at Air Combat USA similarly to some model of aircraft in AH, too.
Anyway, my point is: If you are good in AH, you will have no problem going up in a prop plane and being proficient in ACM with it. If you are a 2000-hour real-life pilot who has no ACM experience or know how, an AH'er (even if he has little time in real planes) will clean your clock in a dogfight in real planes.
This to me means that AH compares very well to RL airplanes in the realm of interest -- dogfighting in prop planes.
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I'm no "real Pio-lat" but... Back around late 2000 till just prior to 9/11 I was taking flying lessons.. During that time I always found negative G's to be far more disorienting and difficult to deal with than positive G's.. Is this common or am I an exception?
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Flying dogfights at Air Combat USA was very similar to fights in Air Warrior and Aces High, with the same things that work in AH working in those fights in the real planes.
My view is that a pilot with lots of experience and skill in AH is at a large advantage in a real dogfight in real planes.
A large advantage over whom?
I did Air Combat USA a few years ago, too. Very fun, but tough to draw broad conclusions from two hours of instructor-assisted dogfighting.
- oldman
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A large advantage over whom?
Anyway, my point is: If you are good in AH, you will have no problem going up in a prop plane and being proficient in ACM with it. If you are a 2000-hour real-life pilot who has no ACM experience or know how, an AH'er (even if he has little time in real planes) will clean your clock in a dogfight in real planes.
I did Air Combat USA a few years ago, too. Very fun, but tough to draw broad conclusions from two hours of instructor-assisted dogfighting.
- oldman
The instructor explained a little about things like high and low yo yo's prior to the fights, which I already knew. After that, he turned the plane over to me, and I fought the fights as I saw fit.
For me, fighting in AH (or in that case Air Warrior) was a lot like those real-plane fights, and experience in AW directly translated to improved skill in those real-plane fights.
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that airflow is what will effect your ground track.
True Cap, if you want to fly a track over the ground. but if you just point your nose at your destination without any type of WCA the airplane will just drift around
until you are flying into the wind towards your destination. The wind only affects your travel over the ground. It makes no difference to the airplane how fast the wind is
or which direction it is blowing.
Having said that I might add this is for a constant velocity wind, now what can cause problems are turbulance, microbursts and wind shear when you are coming in low and slow to land.
Just flying along from point A to point B the airplane does not care if the wind is 25kts or 100kts, head wind or tailwind or Xwind you will still have the same IAS it only changes
the ground speed.
But being part of the CAP you know all of this right. ;)
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you want to fly a heading of 270. wind is 300@19. i somehow think that'll affect the plane in flight. :devil :neener:
Not really, effects the track over the ground not the plane.
Some nice discussions here thanks, I can see how this helps people transitioning to real life flying. but having started out as a RL pilot first and going to AH
I think causes a bigger problem for me, my brains is telling me to fly realistically when I should be flying cartonish. :)
Nice to get perspective of other pilots about game.
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The instructor explained a little about things like high and low yo yo's prior to the fights, which I already knew. After that, he turned the plane over to me, and I fought the fights as I saw fit.
He didn't control the throttle?
- oldman
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He didn't control the throttle?
- oldman
It was up near full the whole time.
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Brooke~Air combat USA, ive read about that, and so want to go its in Cali right? what was the cost? how long of a course is it? Is that the place they do 'lazer tag'? For the firing? shooting? this is something I am very intrested in, I would love to hear about your expierences there, was it worth the money? Like I said on my 40th Bday I took up a super decathalon, it cost $180 for about a half hour, I woulda paid way more then that lol, and now I have a major desire to do it again, I cant even explain the feelings I got when we first lifted off, and just flying before we got to the area for aerobatics, I know if I had the money I would most certainly buy a plane, I saw an F4U for sale fully working condition lol $800,000, but when I took my flight there was a small trick byplane for 40k, much more possible(someday) anyway thanx in advance for any info and stories you may pass on. Paul
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Brooke~Air combat USA, ive read about that, and so want to go its in Cali right? what was the cost? how long of a course is it? Is that the place they do 'lazer tag'? For the firing? shooting? this is something I am very intrested in, I would love to hear about your expierences there, was it worth the money? Like I said on my 40th Bday I took up a super decathalon, it cost $180 for about a half hour, I woulda paid way more then that lol, and now I have a major desire to do it again, I cant even explain the feelings I got when we first lifted off, and just flying before we got to the area for aerobatics, I know if I had the money I would most certainly buy a plane, I saw an F4U for sale fully working condition lol $800,000, but when I took my flight there was a small trick byplane for 40k, much more possible(someday) anyway thanx in advance for any info and stories you may pass on. Paul
Some pretty good info here INK
http://aircombatusa.com/
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My uncle was a carrier pilot and a few years back he bought a flight sim game. He spent more time sitting on the deck checking his gauges than he did flying. Over thought the whole process. I always said..well thought..I didnt want to disrespect the man, "If we're at war..you fly it...if we're sitting at our PCs..I'll fly it."
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This one is close to me, might have to check them out
http://www.fightercombat.com/
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Thanx RV will def check it out, and the one Jimson posted.
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Brooke~Air combat USA, ive read about that, and so want to go its in Cali right? what was the cost? how long of a course is it? Is that the place they do 'lazer tag'? For the firing? shooting? this is something I am very intrested in, I would love to hear about your expierences there, was it worth the money? Like I said on my 40th Bday I took up a super decathalon, it cost $180 for about a half hour, I woulda paid way more then that lol, and now I have a major desire to do it again, I cant even explain the feelings I got when we first lifted off, and just flying before we got to the area for aerobatics, I know if I had the money I would most certainly buy a plane, I saw an F4U for sale fully working condition lol $800,000, but when I took my flight there was a small trick byplane for 40k, much more possible(someday) anyway thanx in advance for any info and stories you may pass on. Paul
It was many years ago when I went, and I think the cost was $800 per person. I looked at their site (www.aircombatusa.com), and it seems to be about $1400 per person today. I went to Fighter Combat USA in Fullerton, California.
I was very lucky, and a friend paid my way back then as a gift. Thank you, JWolff (of the Muskateers)! <S> I would say, though, that it is worth it to do it once in your life if you can. The other aviation-related thing to do at least once in a lifetime (in my opinion) is a ride on the Collings Foundation B-24. That costs about $400, lasts about half an hour (during which you can go everywhere in the plane, fore, aft, all gun positions except ball turret, through the bomb bay, to the flight deck, etc.) and what it is like is described in great detail here:
http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/b24_flights/b24_2005.html
At Air Combat USA, when I went, they fit us in before their normal runs (as it was the only time my friends had available, and they accomodated us). So, they went through the pre-flight stuff very fast: "This is a parachute, here is the handle, if I yell 'Eject, eject, eject', get out right away", etc. You suit up, you get in the plane, and out you go. If you can handle it, they let you fly formation out to the dogfight area and back, but they will do the take off and landing.
In the dogfight area, they took me quickly through some maneuvers (some loops, rolls, high and low yo yo's, etc.) and explained them as ACM maneuvers (but I already knew that). Two planes will fight while you circle and watch. When it is done, they set up up for you. Just like a duel in the DA, you approach each other head on, and when you pass, fight is on. You work to get your sight on the other plane and hold it there. While it is on the other plane, the instructor was looking through his side of the sight, calling "Tracking, tracking, tracking!" if I was holding the sight on the other plane. If I held it for a couple of seconds, he then called "guns, guns, guns", and if I still was on target, he counted it as a kill. The other plane then would turn on smoke. At least that's how they did it when I was there.
The thing I liked about it was to see what it was like to dogfight in a prop plane, with all of the usual moves done in AH. The only drawback was that I felt very airsick for a good portion of the day afterward -- but it was worth it. :)
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man that had to have been an absolute blast, im getting up there in age I need to do this before to long $1400 seems cheap and well worth it, but with 6 kids, not gonna happen any time soon for me:-( but man that would be a day to remember, its so strange for me, I feel I was ment to fly and cant stop thinking about the one time I went up, you are one lucky SOB :-) as far as a ride in the 24 as bad as I want to fly the props, I have no intrest in the bombers actually I cant stand the idea of them lol, since 04 ive been in a bomber in AH maybe twice, I guess it would be cool to see what the guys who flew them had to deal with and what not but I think I have a fear of the big planes lol...oh but to fly a prop, when I took my flight after the first roll I was yelling uncontrollably 'F@# ya' the guy who took me up was like 'see the red button on the stick?' I say ya, he says 'dont hit it I dont care but the tower will' lol, about the yelling and swearing. Anyway thanx for responce~Paul
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I was very lucky, and a friend paid my way back then as a gift.
Heh. Same for me!
It really is quite a lot of fun if you (or your friend!) can afford it. I wrote down my own AAR at the time, which I paste below. This was before I learned how to fly real planes, however, which accounts in large measure for the difference between my impressions today and my impressions back then!
Oldman’s Aerial Adventure
Heh heh. They'll have to pry the grin off my face with a chisel.
Background, for those who didn’t catch it before. In celebration of Oldman’s attainment of the age of 50 years, an achievement which many thought to be impossible, a very good friend gave me a day at Air Combat USA. http://www.aircombatusa.com/ The organization is based on the Left Coast, but takes its show on the road. This appointment was for Saturday, 2 November 2002, at Lancaster, Pennsylvania. They brought two of the SIAI Marchetti 260s to Lancaster. One instructor, one dweeb in each.
I leave home at 6:15 - in a cloud of snow. Not a good sign, but soon the sun pops out and life is good. I get to the airport after about 1.25 hours travel time and am early. A bit later my opponent pulls up to the FBO in a late-model fire engine red pickup truck, saunters out, age about 30, good looking. Took one glance at me, you could see "breakfast" go through his mind.
This is definitely an ex-Navy operation; all three instructors (they rotated) were retired Navy or Marine; all former A4 pilots in this case. My instructor, believe it or not, was call sign “Buzzard.” Got the briefing, learned the parachute, walked out to the planes, took off.
Drill was for the pickup truck guy (who we will call Honcho for purposes of this missive) to lead while I practiced flying at his low 4:00. Immediate overcontrol problems on my part; looked like Gomer Pyle in an airplane. Finally got it so I could hold it within 50 feet up-down-sideways. Blue Angels will not be calling me soon.
Then follow Honcho through some 20-30 degree turns, left, right, left right. Practice low yo-yos, high yo-yos. Things are going good. Time for Honcho to drop into trail, follow me through some turns. One turn to the left. One turn to the right. Then Honcho's instructor comes on over the radio:
"Uh...I think we have to go back to base. He's not gonna make it."
My instructor is appalled. "Whaddaya mean he can't make it??" (He's an ex-Marine, remember.)
"He's really sick."
"Can't you just do a merge or two so I can work on the yo-yos?"
"Well...uh....ok, maybe some easy ones."
So I practiced that for a bit, but we were all acutely conscious that we were torturing poor Honcho, who by now had barfed, not once, but twice, all tied up in nice little plastic bags with twist-ties. So it's back to the airport, this time we're lead. I look down to the right, see Honcho's helmet lolling against the canopy. He looks dead. He probably wishes he was.
Landed. Honcho apologizes, looks around to see if there's a gun nearby that he can use on himself, ultimately takes his fancy truck and drives back to Maryland. What to do for an opponent for the surviving dweeb? Nothing for it but to use Honcho's instructor, call sign Pygmy, 35 years in the Navy starting in 1955, 4000 hours just in A4s, 183 combat missions over Viet Nam. You can see that he's worried.
So up we go in the afternoon. One of the guys in the flight before us has also barfed, big man, pale as a ghost, but not suicidal like the Honcho. I am feeling so superior.
Practice the formation flying on the way out....still not getting any calls from the demo teams. Practiced some lag rolls (fun!), then it was time for COMBAT!
Pygmy about one mile out on the left; both planes turn toward each other, speed up to about 180 kts each, closing at 360, meet co-alt, wings level (these were the rules of engagement - no lead turn stuff). I go up and left in an easy immel, Pygmy circles down to the left, I'm still overcontrolling, plane is shuddering, my instructor is saying "ease back ease back ease back," the nose goes down as Pygmy comes back up. Up and down after each other like this, Pygmy decides to reverse and give the Oldman an easy shot, which the Oldman happily takes. Smoke trails from Pygmy, the crowd cheers.
On the second flight Pygmy has decided to let the Oldman know that the first kill was because of easy treatment. This time the turns are probably 3g (interesting that the speed bleeds off so quickly that you can't get more than that before you hit stall), I'm overcontrolling as always, shuddering in the stall, Pygmy is on me within a few seconds, and I'm trailing smoke, which is also filling the cockpit. Time to open the hood a few inches, let some of that cool fall air (-22 C) into the plane. OK, so he got me, big deal, there's always fight number three.
To compress this story, it is enough to say that I am doing a very good job at situational awareness, a pretty decent job at staying in his rear quarters, overcontrol is my big problem. Of the six fights, I am victor in four, although we all know that Pygmy is not perceiving this as a fight for his life. On my first pullout from a dive, looking straight up through the canopy at Pygmy, my head suddenly weighs 4.5 times its normal fathead self, and I think it is going to pop off and land in the luggage compartment behind me. Still sore (just a little) today. Otherwise, its just like the computer games.
On the way home, oddly enough, the Oldman begins to feel a bit queasy himself. Would not do to barf after all the fun we've been making of the Honcho, so I busy myself looking at the scenery. Amazingly, I'm able to hold a pretty good formation by this time, which is fortunate, because I find that watching Pygmy’s plane makes me feel sicker.
Land the plane, the queasiness goes away instantly, I am my old confident self and am also walking two inches above the surface of the pavement. Shake hands with Pygmy, who is, to my surprise, not a real happy camper. My instructor thinks it's because he had to work too hard. I wonder if it’s because I almost hit him. I don't care. I could do this all day, unless I were to get sick like the weak people.
Plainly one of the best days of my life. Am wondering how I can afford to buy two of these planes, at $500k each.
Observations from the AW/AH perspective:
My Real Airplane experience was very much like the transition from AW to AH. The general maneuvers, SA and techniques are the same. But the plane takes getting used to. A lot more getting used to than I could do in a couple of hours.
First impression: I need Big T to set the stick scaling. I doubt that the top of the stick ever moved more than two inches during any of my maneuvers, and usually lots less than that, and I was still overcontrolling. It really is just a matter of the amount of pressure you apply. The joysticks on these planes, FWIW, were, exactly, the old Thrustmaster FCS, complete with hat switch (which I never thought to ask about) (although I’m pretty sure it didn’t control the views).
Second impression: The combat looks just like it does with the early war planes in AH. Same speeds, same distances, visually, at least. I was very comfortable with that.
Funny impression: You think of it the way you think of the game. When I was looking up, I thought, distractedly, “Hey, this is the 5-key view.” When I was communicating, I though “Intercom is button 3, radio is button two.” After we passed on the merge, I though “Raise head, look kp 2-4.”
There was much less feel to the planes than I expected. I never did really get a sense of when I was about to hit the stall, until the plane began to shudder. My instructor actually got a bit agitated about this. Marines, what are you gonna do with them?
Main computer sim impression: Flying AW and AH helped a lot. You know what you want to do, and, pretty much, the plane does it, just like in the game. I was complimented on my ability to keep the other plane in sight (thank you, HR, for your post long ago on the AOL boards) and to stay (usually) (well, a lot, at least) behind him. I didn’t have to think about what I should do next, it came naturally because of all those years of virtual reality practice.
And let me tell you, playing AH is a lot cheaper than playing the real thing.
- oldman
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Seriously one of the best and most informative threads I've ever seen on this board. I vote a sticky on this one.
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cool story oldman....except the weak people comment of course....:-) I am far from weak, and I puked my guts out, and will absolutly go back up again when I get the chance, just wont eat that morning. was a great story non the less ~Paul
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WOW! can you imagin the feeling of going from a few hour's in a Tiger moth to a Spitfire with no backseat help?
and the same goes for the T-6 trainer, then shipped out, call your name- here's your plane number. God-speed,
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the weather is such a huge factor in real life, sad to see AH is more of a game than a simulator. But if we had wind that would be a different story
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the weather is such a huge factor in real life, sad to see AH is more of a game than a simulator. But if we had wind that would be a different story
i know grizz is gonna jump on me for this......but we often times have wind in the ava. i've won, and i've lost fights because of it. it changes the whole dynamic of the fight.
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I remember a story from a WWII pilot at The Museum of Flight in Seattle. He talked about how most people think about the danger of WWII flying as being enemy planes and flak and don't know that weather was a major danger back then as well.
To illustrate, he told the story of one mission where his flight of P-51's went up, and they were supposed to rendezvous with bombers over France. The weather was horrible, and they were in clouds and heavy turbulence most of the way. They were all formed up tight on the lead because of poor visibility and thus watching him and concentrating on formation instead of looking at their own instruments.
At one point, in the soup, he saw one of the planes peel off formation and instantly disappear in the murk; then another did the same. The pilot giving the talk then looked down at his instruments and saw that he was in a steep diving bank, and he pulled off the lead to get his own plane back under control, realising that the lead had developed vertigo and was out of control.
He flew around in the region where they were supposed to meet up with the bombers (as best he could figure), but it was so bad that there was no chance of spotting them and forming up, so after a bit, he headed back to base alone.
He was the only one of his flight who made it back.
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if you want to feel what that feels like.....have a CFI take you up for a little bit of unusual attitude recovery training. it's pretty friggin scary how easy it is to let that happen.
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Yep, I remember wearing the hood in flight school, closing eyes, and being told "Turn left. OK. Turn right. Turn left again" and hearing the engine start to wind up. Then opening eyes on the instrument panel to do recovery.
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Yep, I remember wearing the hood in flight school, closing eyes, and being told "Turn left. OK. Turn right. Turn left again" and hearing the engine start to wind up. Then opening eyes on the instrument panel to do recovery.
90 percent of my instrument training was at night with a hood
on. I could just barely see out of the left corner of my left eye
and see lights on the ground, this made me feel like I was in a right
turn it was really hard to fly the gauges straight and level
while you could swear you were turning right.
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Yep, I remember wearing the hood in flight school, closing eyes, and being told "Turn left. OK. Turn right. Turn left again" and hearing the engine start to wind up. Then opening eyes on the instrument panel to do recovery.
yep. that's part of what i'm talking about.
i had an instructor put me through that 3 or 4 times.....but he did it a little differently. he had me close my eyes, and let my head hang, as if i were asleep. he'd then climb, descend, accelerate, turn, etc....kinda like a big roller coaster ride.
then he'd let go(always with the airplane in a fairly ungood attitude), and say recover. i had to open my eyes, and recover on instruments only. after 3 or 4 times of this, he said he was satasfied with how i handled them, took the controls, while i removed the foggles. he gave me back the controls, and told me to head towards atco raceway(our practice area is a little east of there).
i established my heading, set the throttle, and trimmed the plane. now he starts asking me this, and that. as i answer, i look at him while i'm talking. then he asks me "why are we turning?". i said we're not...look....as i pointed at atco raceway now off to our 2 oclock.
what happened was that it felt to me like we were turning, and i kept just automatically correcting, without(rather stupidly) paying much attention to anything else. that was the first and last time i let anything distract me from my flying when i was in the left seat. i felt like an ass, but he said it's fairly common after the drill he gave me.
i look back on it, and can sorta laugh at myself now though.
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By the way, Rvflyer, that is a nice pic as your avatar. Is that your RV? Which RV is it?
The RV is what I would pick if I were to have my choice of two-place planes. So nice!
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By the way, Rvflyer, that is a nice pic as your avatar. Is that your RV? Which RV is it?
The RV is what I would pick if I were to have my choice of two-place planes. So nice!
Yes sir that is my RV-6, I built that in 1989 and am still flying it today. "FUN" airplane. Stressed for +-6g's ultimate 9g
I've pulled 5 for an instant and that is enough for me.:) Powered with an O-360 Lycoming and empty weight at time of first flight was 978lbs
I am sure that has gone up over the years, definitely know that pilot weight has.:(
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An RV would be sweet. Not sure I have the patience or skills for the build though. Also Mrs Wooley has vowed never to get in an aircraft I'm flying, never mind one I built. Strange how she'll trust the 20 year old stranger who's at the end of an 18 hour shift to fly her in a Regional, but not me.
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When I was about 10 or 11 my father and i went up in a Bell Sioux helicopter for a half hour or so. Flying backwards is a sensation that I'll never forget....now that is fluffied up ;)
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When I was about 10 or 11 my father and i went up in a Bell Sioux helicopter for a half hour or so. Flying backwards is a sensation that I'll never forget....now that is fluffied up ;)
Carefull BillyD that was your 666 post :devil
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lol in all honesty I just got ridiculously sick and wretched my dinner out in a trash can on the living room floor. Now I'm here on this stupid BBS trying to drink some water and eat some oyster crackers without a repeat event.
Time to move away from post 666
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i know grizz is gonna jump on me for this......but we often times have wind in the ava. i've won, and i've lost fights because of it. it changes the whole dynamic of the fight.
Who? :lol