Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jimson on January 30, 2011, 08:46:53 AM
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A week long strategic bombing campaign in the Axis vs Allies Arena representing the 8th Air Force vs Luftwaffe (1944) on the BoB 09 terrain.
This would be an attempt to bring bomber pilots/squads and fighter escorts into the arena and give them an important strategic task (success easily defined) and pit luftwaffe fighter pilots against them and their escorts for some higher alt battles.
Airfield towns would serve as strategic targets for the Allies and be set for 75% down for white flag to pop. Town building downtime would be set for approximately 3 hours.
Axis bases would be limited to 10-12 airfields.
Allied objective would be to destroy 5 towns and have 5 white flags flying by nightfall which would occur at 12 midnite est daily. One of the 5 must be at least 3 sectors inland from the coast.
Axis objective would of course be interdiction and saving their towns from destruction.
There will be a hard ceiling (heavy wind downdraft) at 16K making fighter escort highly desirable to get the bombers to target.
Fuel burn rate will be MA standard 2.0 and droptanks will be disabled for all aircraft except for the P-51D
Fighters will be guns/cannons only including gondolas for Luftwaffe
Bomber load outs will be restricted to 250 lb bombs and MA auto calibration might be enabled.
Airfield assets, hangars and such will be hardened to nearly indestructible levels to keep the fight from being shut down.
Allies B-17
B-24
P-47D-25
P-38J
P-51B
P-51D
Axis BF 109G-6
BF 109-G14
FW 190 D9
FW 190 A8
BF 110G2
Suggestions welcome
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looks like a fun setup Jimson
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Bombers would rule!
999000
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I'll see about getting the DHBG in on this.
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Bombers would rule!
999000
no they wouldn't :P
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Bombers would rule!
999000
you're only allowed in if you leave your laser sights outside the door. :devil :aok
but then again, i'd be flying escort in my beloved p-38j :aok
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I'll see about getting the DHBG in on this.
I'd like to talk to some bomber guys and get their input, find out from their perspective what they would need to would make it fun.
I'm thinking of running it for a week and during that week set up a squad night or two for some HBG's and escort groups.
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DHBG will see what we can do about getting a few guys in. Right now with the entire squadron being in the BoG scenario it might over-stretch us, but we've got a few (like me) that would love to hop in.
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DHBG will see what we can do about getting a few guys in. Right now with the entire squadron being in the BoG scenario it might over-stretch us, but we've got a few (like me) that would love to hop in.
same with the 20th FG but i feel we can get enough guys in each day of the setup (10 approx) for this to work :t
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same with the 20th FG but i feel we can get enough guys in each day of the setup (10 approx) for this to work :t
When I find time, I'll be there!
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P-47D-25 :x. i AM IN!
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There will be a hard ceiling (heavy wind downdraft) at 16K making fighter escort highly desirable to get the bombers to target.
Fuel burn rate will be MA standard 2.0 and droptanks will be disabled for all aircraft except for the P-51D
Fighters will be guns/cannons only including gondolas for Luftwaffe
Bomber load outs will be restricted to 250 lb bombs and MA auto calibration might be enabled.
Airfield assets, hangars and such will be hardened to nearly indestructible levels to keep the fight from being shut down.
Allies B-17
B-24
P-47D-25
P-38J
P-51B
P-51D
Axis BF 109G-6
BF 109-G14
FW 190 D9
FW 190 A8
BF 110G2
Suggestions welcome
If this is to show realism get rid of the hard cap. The meaning of a bomber raid is the altitude and there will be no way to escort bombers at 16K really when the bombers would want to be above that altitude to begin with. And i say you put the objectives all beyond 2 to 3 sectors inland on this map. I say MA standard goes down the drain and go realism or the fighter escort will not be used well (people will just fly the 51Ds for the tanks) <- Give all fighters their tanks. And the airfield indestructibility idea is perfect :aok
Suggestions given jim :aok hope you listen <S>
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Make it 1943 instead, using RAF A20s and B25s and 9th AF 26s. Forget the USAAF stuff and get the Spit Vb and IXs escorting those daily excursions into France to hit airfields. Throw in some Mossies and Tiffies. Then the 109Gs, 190A5s and 8s with some 110s possible. And for added fun give the LW guys Ju88s and 190F8s to try and fly some of those hit and run raids on the English coast that drew so many RAF resources in an effort to stop
Fights won't be so high as the medium bombers set the alt in the 15-18K range. Spit Vs as close escort. Spit IXs as high cover and sweeping ahead. Luftwaffe with the height and the control to choose when to attack, etc etc.
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Make it 1943 instead, using RAF A20s and B25s and 9th AF 26s. Forget the USAAF stuff and get the Spit Vb and IXs escorting those daily excursions into France to hit airfields. Throw in some Mossies and Tiffies. Then the 109Gs, 190A5s and 8s with some 110s possible. And for added fun give the LW guys Ju88s and 190F8s to try and fly some of those hit and run raids on the English coast that drew so many RAF resources in an effort to stop
Fights won't be so high as the medium bombers set the alt in the 15-18K range. Spit Vs as close escort. Spit IXs as high cover and sweeping ahead. Luftwaffe with the height and the control to choose when to attack, etc etc.
good idea. either kill the hard cap and give us realistic high alt raids or stick with the medium alt RAF raids instead :aok
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I'm listening. The 1943 medium bomber scenario is a worthy scenario of its own. I'd like to see if we can make it work with the heavies for one scenario.
The goals are to try to generate something a little more strategic in AvA than just furballing.
Give bomber pilots a reason to come in and give them an objective, something to do.
Take the focus away from base capture and give it it's own AvA twist.
Bring the furballs into something more historically realistic, dogfights between escorts and defenders.
The Alt cap can certainly be raised or removed. It was just an idea to keep things reasonable so that players wouldn't have to spend too much time climbing before getting into a fight.
Likewise the fuel restrictions. They were there for one, to limit the Luftwaffe to give the allies a better chance to get over the channel and two, to simulate the P-51D's longer range, but we really don't have a map that contains the British coast and Germany.
It's always about trying to find a balance between game playability and historical simulation.
give the LW guys Ju88s and 190F8s to try and fly some of those hit and run raids on the English coast that drew so many RAF resources in an effort to stop
That is also a worthwhile idea. What I was trying to do was keep it an attack and defend scenario just to keep it simple and make the objectives easier to track.
So if we eliminate the alt cap and the fuel restrictions, set the target towns a little further in, maybe also enable the Luftwaffe a bit further in would that be better?
Also, the AvA normally uses manual calibration. Would auto calibration be a bigger draw?
Are the objectives even reasonable?
Granted, I'm not a bomber pilot but my offline testing seems to indicate that the town buildings are too spread out for carpet bombing to be particularly effective.
With a 3 ship formation dropping my whole load with a delay of .75 or 1.0 only netted me a few buildings.
I did a little better with precision bombing. Unopposed and using auto calibration and dropping from 8-9k with a salvo of 2 and delay of .5, by steering from the bombsite to target clusters of buildings, I was able to destroy a dozen.
75% town down would be about 69 buildings. Too hard? Too easy?
Is restricting the heavy load out to 250lb bombs a good idea?
Keep the suggestions coming, they help a lot.
:salute
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How far wil lthe 109s be flying? They arent exactly the best on fuel....
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good idea. either kill the hard cap and give us realistic high alt raids or stick with the medium alt RAF raids instead :aok
JUST remember, i think most "hi alt" bomber runs were only 20 to 23k. the really high ones were 26k or so.......i think
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Granted, I'm not a bomber pilot but my offline testing seems to indicate that the town buildings are too spread out for carpet bombing to be particularly effective.
With a 3 ship formation dropping my whole load with a delay of .75 or 1.0 only netted me a few buildings.
I did a little better with precision bombing. Unopposed and using auto calibration and dropping from 8-9k with a salvo of 2 and delay of .5, by steering from the bombsite to target clusters of buildings, I was able to destroy a dozen.
75% town down would be about 69 buildings. Too hard? Too easy?
Is restricted the heavy load out to 250lb bombs a good idea?
Keep the suggestions coming, they help a lot.
:salute
with the laser guided bomb site in he MA arenas I can get a white flag with one pass in any set of heavy bombers using 1000lb or 500lb bombs. havnt tried 250lb or 100lb yet. ive done the same in the AVA with the manual calibration. Not sure if that would be possible with a 75% setting for town down but that would be good. we want it to take multiple sets of bombers reaching the target to get the white flag.
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How far wil lthe 109s be flying? They arent exactly the best on fuel....
jolly, fuel factor is 1 in the AVA. fuel isn't an issue.
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jolly, fuel factor is 1 in the AVA. fuel isn't an issue.
The fuel burn was going to be changed to 2 for this.
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jimson was talking about setting at MA setting of 2...
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For realism and for 'fun' gameplay (I am assuming this is a potential AvA room) having an Air Start at say 25-30k would be awesome (adjust to suit). Folks that get shot down a lot (like me) wouldn't have to climb out for 20 minutes to get back to alt.
We ran a few rooms like this back in Fighter Ace once in a while, and they were a blast. Everyone's favorite ride handles a lot differently at those alts.
Another plus is that it give everyone involved in BoG 'practice' time. I miss my 109 in the AvA room this week.
<S>
Cheese
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For realism and for 'fun' gameplay (I am assuming this is a potential AvA room) having an Air Start at say 25-30k would be awesome (adjust to suit). Folks that get shot down a lot (like me) wouldn't have to climb out for 20 minutes to get back to alt.
We ran a few rooms like this back in Fighter Ace once in a while, and they were a blast. Everyone's favorite ride handles a lot differently at those alts.
Another plus is that it give everyone involved in BoG 'practice' time. I miss my 109 in the AvA room this week.
<S>
Cheese
+1
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well depending on how many bomber pilots show up you might want to reduce the destruction properties...it seems like the buffs are just going to be used as a rally point for a furball....I mean...I'd kill all the enemy fighters in my 17's, but come on....I don't want to make them all look like jack wagons :P :lol :neener: :ahand
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it seems like the buffs are just going to be used as a rally point for a
Not really, I do want the bombing role to have significance, which is why I want to know what they would need for it to be a good time for them.
For realism and for 'fun' gameplay (I am assuming this is a potential AvA room) having an Air Start at say 25-30k would be awesome (adjust to suit).
There are only a couple of terrains that have air starts, and they are built in and can't be added.
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They did it in the Scenario, so there must be a way....I don't 'think' they had AF that high, but I wasn't flying Allies so I can't say for certain.
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They did it in the Scenario, so there must be a way....I don't 'think' they had AF that high, but I wasn't flying Allies so I can't say for certain.
Like I said it depends on the terrain. They probably used a terrain with built in air starts.
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Bombers would rule!
999000
you're invited to this one, but you have to put a big red flag on your plane, so we know who to stay away from! :D
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How will the airspawns be treated/distributed?
I'd remove the fuel restrictions personaly, especialy with a 2.0 fuel burn rate.
I would keep a reasonable altitude restriction, nobody wants to spend all night repeatedly climbing back up to 30k, especialy if 999000 is going to be one of the buffs up there that they're going to keep having to climb up that high and far to face. :D
Guns/cannons only, so we want bomber intercepts to not have access to the german air to air rockets or so we don't want the allied escorts to have access to air to ground munitions?
As for auto bombsight calibration... I don't know, you will probabley want to add more wind and other difficulties for buffs that opt to take the high-road and also add an incentive for bombers to stay lower to the ground, use your judgement to best achieve this I think.
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you're invited to this one, but you have to put a big red flag on your plane, so we know who to stay away from! :D
Too bad the CMs can't lock out custom bomber skins to all players except one (or designate a particular skin... say one in hot-pink with a flashing "999000 on Board" sign in neon green). :D
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If we run on BoB there aren't any airspawns.
This is where I am leaning now.
Removing drop tank restrictions, keeping 2.0 fuel burn. Enabling allied planes right on their coast. Luftwaffe one sector in from their coast. At least one target town to be 3 sectors inland.
Keeping an alt cap but raising it to 20K.
Leaving town down percentage to 50% and enabling only 250lb bomb load, I figure it will take 3 formations to white flag a town in one pass. Auto calibration.
Not concerned with Luftwaffe air to air rockets so they can be enabled, I just don't want it to turn into an allied jabot fest, so disable ords for allied fighters.
Possibilities:
As Babalonian suggested, set some wind layers between 16 and 20k to hamper bombing accuracy a little and encourage lower level flight.
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If we run on BoB there aren't any airspawns.
This is where I am leaning now.
Removing drop tank restrictions, keeping 2.0 fuel burn. Enabling allied planes right on their coast. Luftwaffe one sector in from their coast. At least one target town to be 3 sectors inland.
Keeping an alt cap but raising it to 20K.
Leaving town down percentage to 50% and enabling only 250lb bomb load, I figure it will take 3 formations to white flag a town in one pass. Auto calibration.
Not concerned with Luftwaffe air to air rockets so they can be enabled, I just don't want it to turn into an allied jabot fest, so disable ords for allied fighters.
Possibilities:
As Babalonian suggested, set some wind layers between 16 and 20k to hamper bombing accuracy a little and encourage lower level flight.
Ahhh, my mistake, thought you said the BoG map, not the BoB... hopefuly understandable.
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:aok +1
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Ahhh, my mistake, thought you said the BoG map, not the BoB... hopefuly understandable.
The Germany map is also a possibility in which case we would eliminate Alt caps and enable airstarts for each side. Allies would probably spawn over the sea.
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16k nope.......250lbs bombs nope. Maybe 20-25k and 500lbs bombs, otherwise nothing but turkey shoot for fighters. :salute
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Ah good, another bomber pilot weighs in.
Ok, but if it's 500 pounders will a single formation be able to white flag a town in one pass? I want it to take at least a couple and remember there will be extended down times for the town buildings.
If everyone has to climb out to 25k no one's gonna come in to play.
So we could move it to the Germany map with air starts for both sides and no alt cap. Will that work better or will the fighters still have a turkey shoot?
If we enable air starts just for the Allies, no one is going to fly Axis.
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JUST remember, i think most "hi alt" bomber runs were only 20 to 23k. the really high ones were 26k or so.......i think
16k nope.......250lbs bombs nope. Maybe 20-25k and 500lbs bombs, otherwise nothing but turkey shoot for fighters. :salute
16K for B17s is insanely low. Like both of u said, hi altitude runs were 20-23k. Remember CAP, the 20th and the 91st etc have been doing this for a while and we'd like to live :D For AvA High Alt raids, screw the hard cap. But the medium alt raids have promise... but you need to allow a little leeway for alt instead of 16k hardcap also...
Ah good, another bomber pilot weighs in.
Ok, but if it's 500 pounders will a single formation be able to white flag a town in one pass? I want it to take at least a couple and remember there will be extended down times for the town buildings.
If everyone has to climb out to 25k no one's gonna come in to play.
So we could move it to the Germany map with air starts for both sides and no alt cap. Will that work better or will the fighters still have a turkey shoot?
If we enable air starts just for the Allies, no one is going to fly Axis.
I know that the Allied bombers will be patient enough to climb to 25k and so will most of the fighters. Axis can do the same. Use the BoG map and runway starts. Disable the air spawns