Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: IronDog on March 05, 2011, 09:15:42 AM
-
If you are tired of listening to the HO whines and would like the HO % dropped to a like pure luck shot,and collisions taken out,raise your hand!There are a few out there that don't HO,but the number is small.Smaller than most will admit.I'm a terrible Ho'er but I've learned you have to use it,as most players will resort to it every time.I have had players PM me with nice HO shot,followed with a abusive insult,just after they tried to HO me,but I won the HO contest.'I prefer the nice pick PM,as that tells me I'm doing my type of flying well.
You could get in a HO shot in AW with a P38 or Skeeter now and then,but few even messed with the HO.The collision model was also right on,as I have witnessed collisions that defy explanation.Just turn them off!
Dale has it correct about pizzing the other guy off is what this sim is all about,and the HO is keeping that pizzing the other guy off,alive and well!
I would like to see it go.A guy that doesn't HO and gets a face full will learn very quickly that players in this game will use every trick in the book to get a kill!
The Dawg
-
good luck with that... :aok
-
I hear ya ID. A few of us had a discussion HERE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,304588.0.html). My thoughts are that it's the first move a newbi learns because it's the easiest, and has some success with it. The problem today is most people are OK with that as their "best move" and no longer try to get better by learning other moves. I think it's more of a social issue (kids brought up playing games like WoW and running around screaming "Leroy Jenkins!!!") than a game issue.
-
If you are tired of listening to the HO whines and would like the HO % dropped to a like pure luck shot,and collisions taken out,raise your hand!
That would be the epitome of arcade & gameyness. Luckily, I don't even need to stomp my feet, shake my fist and threaten "If that happens, I'm outta here!" ... because it never ever will :neener:
-
I so rarely am even touched by a HO shot, even in a largely outnumbered fight. I don't see why old vets like you and Fugitive haven't learned how to avoid them after all these years. :headscratch:
-
I so rarely am even touched by a HO shot, even in a largely outnumbered fight. I don't see why old vets like you and Fugitive haven't learned how to avoid them after all these years. :headscratch:
I avoid them very easily. The problem is every plane coming at you is doing the same move. In ID case he goes for it because that's what everyone does. Me I try and set them up to die in a turn or two. Of course in most cases once they can't HO you any more they run to friends or ack because it's all they know.
-
i've always had trouble hitting if i try to ho.....i've gotten decent at dodging them now.
-
what if you were hoing bombers? Beside in real combat this feature is not available.
-
There was nothing in AW that is better than Aces High.
If you think the current collisions defy explanations you just don't understand the explanations.
-
I always avoid the HO shot. Maybe it's just me but I don't like to have the enemy be able to shoot at me. Usually it results in death.
-
Id prefer the AW way. It forced you to fight if you wanted a kill. I remember the picker types complaining in that game. Well, they finally got a game to suit them here.
-
I think it would be bad.....even though I cant stand a person whos only trick is the "HO"....."cant stand" to strong of words....its a game who cares......but it should have some semblance of reality for the sim part, it was a tactic, and in certain plane match ups its necessary, they are quit easy to avoid...I dont think its the particular HO shot that you don't like its the mentality of the newer players (and some older ones) who play as if there very life depended on it. id suggest just trying to enjoy the game and think when you first roll a sortie every one you meet in the air is gonna HO you, so when they do you wont be surprised and when they don't...you can enjoy a good fight. :aok
-
Bad idea. The problem I have with it is that it takes a bullet and tells it "no!". A bullet is propelled out the barrel and goes where it is pointed until it hits something, and thats the way it should be. If HTC turned off ANY shot taken, then AH would no longer be any type of air combat simulation. It would instead be cheap arcade tool, a waste of time.
No sir. Dont be lazy Irondog. Play the game smartly and enjoy yourself :rock
-
It takes two to HO.
It takes bad SA/maneuvering to be HO'd. Or just plain bad luck - some sorties just aren't meant to be.
-
HO? who's dumb enough to drive their car on the wrong side of the road? and not turn once they realize when another car comes to view? :headscratch:
HO?!!! just tap the trigger and roll out, don't stick it out! if you die in the HO it's your fault AND theirs! you both did it! fartknockers! :banana:
just roll just roll just roll :airplane:
-
the only bad thing about fighting someone who only goes for a headonshot, is that if you maneuver and avoid they extend to 3k, 4k, 5k and rinse and repeat.if you get around on them you chase them forever, unless you are lucky enough to get with in guns range and hit them to rattle their cage, then it is easy from there on.....
so most times you get bored, turn your tail to them and try to sucker them in and do a barrel roll defense or something another...... but most times you can't do this because they will lay in wait until you are in another fight or they will scream for 4 or 5 others to come and help them Maim you......
that is the only downfall of the HO...... it isn't because one can not defeat or deny a person trying to HO...
just my personal opinion - your opinion is your's :aok
-
It takes two to HO.
It takes bad SA/maneuvering to be HO'd. Or just plain bad luck - some sorties just aren't meant to be.
This^^^ It' s really not not a big deal unless you are sober when it happens :confused:
-
we need a Pimp to slap the HO whiners.....
-
the only bad thing about fighting someone who only goes for a headonshot, is that if you maneuver and avoid they extend to 3k, 4k, 5k and rinse and repeat
so most times you get bored, turn your tail to them and try to sucker them in and do a barrel roll defense or something another......
^ What I was gonna say ^ The HO & extend type usually will bite if you do a really lazy (iow also energy-cheap) evasive ahead of time. If they bend into you, you've made them pay some E and commit a little. Myself I usually don't exploit this right away but just keep playing stoopid... boil the frog.
but most times you can't do this because they will lay in wait until you are in another fight or they will scream for 4 or 5 others to come and help them Maim you......
In that case you're screwed anyway :D Not much you can do but make the most of it.
-
What and take away my other dimension, the first being picking. :lol
-
you realize if you get rid of the ho shot,
the front 1/4 shot goes with it also.
the dive and pull up and shoot in face but it's not a ho shot, is gone too.
semp
-
There was nothing in AW that is better than Aces High.
Thanks for all the replies.I figured there would be mostly negative opinions to my thoughts,FlS, Air Warrior had many fine qualities,and I wasn't trying to say in any way that AW was better.That being said,I can guarantee that a lot of my old AW friends will back me up on the fact that AW was a great sim,and the friendships,and spirit that were made in AW carried over to AH,and made it the great sim it is.One of my squad mates gave me a tip on Ho'ing that has greatly improved my Ho'ing success.I'm not overly exited that I improved on a skill I don't think should be in the game,but that is what one has to do to survive these days.Learning to avoid the HO was one of the first things I picked up when making the AW-AH transition.The collision modeling bothers me way more than the HO issue.Last night a guy flew right under me,and he got a collision with me!Shortly I got the kill,because I had landed some lead in his face!That's my story on both issues.Everyone has their own opinions,and I respect that.
The Dawg
-
Of course in most cases once they can't HO you any more they run to friends or ack because it's all they know.
Spot on Fugi. :aok
-
Even if it were a good wish...... Making a comparison to Air Warriors is probably the last nail in any coffin.
Go play Air Warriors if you like it better..................... Oh, oh wait.................... That's right, it's gone.
So let's make AH more like it? :rofl
Good question...........
btw: how did AW handle HO shots?
-
Please, fell free to HO me anytime. 9 times out of 10 I'm either going to beat you at it, or use your predetermined flight path against you.
-
I wouldnt want to change anything in respect of HO shots. I very much enjoyed sawing the wing off HOtard's XVI the other day with my 8x.303s in a joust, then flying on to the next fight with no damage. It made me smile.
the collision model can be hard to get your head around (2 players is actually modelled as 4 planes), but trust me the model we have in AH is the fairest way of doing it.
btw: how did AW handle HO shots?
edit: perfect timing for my post http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvcaxumeiKc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvcaxumeiKc) :lol
-
AW had no collisions and all but 3% of the HO shots where thrown out. So if you fired 100 rounds in your HO attempt only 3 of them counted. - think it was 3%, it was a long time ago. :)
-
im a HO master; due to flying mossy,p39and 190a8 all the time in LW ma, these plane loose advantage fast so killing people that are trying to avoid HO has become an art im rather good at now. not to say that i wont continue the fight after first ho, but i find my self in these plane just looking to get a second ho before better faster plane get on my 6. I feel people should not cry over Ho-tards they usually fly planes with big heavy weapons loads and will not be able to win a dogfight in anyother fashion other than HO or boom and zoom.
-
I liked the way AW handled Head-On's. As simple as it was, the positive side effect to it was you actually had to fight to get kills.
-
You could get in a HO shot in AW with a P38 or Skeeter now and then,but few even messed with the HO.The collision model was also right on,as I have witnessed collisions that defy explanation.Just turn them off!
The Dawg
AW didn't model collisions.
ack-ack
-
Id prefer the AW way. It forced you to fight if you wanted a kill. I remember the picker types complaining in that game. Well, they finally got a game to suit them here.
Take off the rose tinted glasses...the same game play you see currently in AH, you saw the same all those years ago in AW.
ack-ack
-
I feel people should not cry over Ho-tards they usually fly planes with big heavy weapons loads and will not be able to win a dogfight in anyother fashion other than HO or boom and zoom.
So basically you're saying that you utterly lack any sort of skill that you need to resort to taking the head on shot? At least someone is willing to admit they aren't very good and need to resort to taking head on shots to make up for their lack of skill.
ack-ack
-
I liked the way AW handled Head-On's. As simple as it was, the positive side effect to it was you actually had to fight to get kills.
LOL! I'm sure guys like RAGS and Krieg really worked for those kills in AW.
ack-ack
-
I'm a terrible Ho'er but I've learned you have to use it
You must be doing something wrong then because this is untrue.
The only time I ever "HO" is when the other guy doesn't have guns on me. Any time he does or can get guns on me I maneuever to where he may have a <5% chance shot. The times I get hit hard or killed on a head on merge are rare.
-
ho is part of the game and collisions too.
Let's avoid to be able to fire with zoom on because this is 'unrealistic'
If your zoom is on, then you can release your bombs only.
DAMN!
:salute
-
Take off the rose tinted glasses...the same game play you see currently in AH, you saw the same all those years ago in AW.
ack-ack
No thats not true at all. In AW there were very few, who flew like many fly in here today. It just didnt pay off because the chances of popping a guy in the nose was slim to none. You could see them coming, even if busy in a fight, turn into them and show them your spinner and they would hit nothing. Add in more numbers in here, and more and more people flying to live rather than for the fight, and its a whole lot different.
Im willing to bet that some that flew there were so-so and this game allowed them to do better because it gave them the options for a kill that lacked in AW.
-
AW had no collisions and all but 3% of the HO shots where thrown out. So if you fired 100 rounds in your HO attempt only 3 of them counted. - think it was 3%, it was a long time ago. :)
was that for shots from of the whole of the front quarter?
You could see them coming, even if busy in a fight, turn into them and show them your spinner and they would hit nothing.
that sounds really gamey to me, the unrealistic modelling leads to unrealistic flying ...
-
You must be doing something wrong then because this is untrue.
The only time I ever "HO" is when the other guy doesn't have guns on me. Any time he does or can get guns on me I maneuever to where he may have a <5% chance shot. The times I get hit hard or killed on a head on merge are rare.
saw you ho a plane last night. before you get all upset and say it wasnt, i gotta say that was a well executed ho, since the guy was so preoccupied chasing another that he never saw you. which gave me an idea and how safely conduct more ho's :D.
semp
-
I believe AW had a 3d bubble around the aircraft, and so there were many places where it a 'hit' could be registered but in reality, would not be anywhere near a 'hit'. Because of this limitation, they added 'percentages' to it, but I believe the hit detection in AH is a bit more advanced.
-
saw you ho a plane last night. before you get all upset and say it wasnt, i gotta say that was a well executed ho, since the guy was so preoccupied chasing another that he never saw you. which gave me an idea and how safely conduct more ho's :D.
semp
Like I said, I ho planes that don't have guns on me. Pretty smart strategy eh? :D
-
I'm not taking sides here but I really can't stand dumb responses like this, especially from somebody skilled enough to never get "stuck" in a head-on....... Would you call Claire Chennault and his Flying Tigers "skill-less?"
Anybody that female dogs about the ho, is OBVIOUSLY not SKILLED enough to evade it. Because it ain't hard... The only times I am ho'd is when I am ho'ing also. All other attempts are easily put down.
So basically you're saying that you utterly lack any sort of skill that you need to resort to taking the head on shot? At least someone is willing to admit they aren't very good and need to resort to taking head on shots to make up for their lack of skill.
ack-ack
-
was that for shots from of the whole of the front quarter?
that sounds really gamey to me, the unrealistic modelling leads to unrealistic flying ...
I believe so.
-
Interestingly enough, the most valuable tip I got in AW3 is as applicable to AH as it was to AW but for different reasons.
Let me tell you, hands down, HTC has always had a much better data transferral than AW did. Latency was a more discernable difference way back when.
The advice was simple, start a lead turn about 1 - 1.5k out, of course doing the dive for merge speed if possible. What this often did was put me on their 6 after they blew past me. In AH it's still doable but I'd start it in the MA around 800-1k out (to avoid the HO) In the DA where the unwritten rule is no ho on merge, you can cut it closer in to about 500yds, with the same result, pulling into an offensive position.
I much prefer HTC's implementation (and it took me a few months to adjust after coming over from AW3.) I can't HO very well, heh, never could, but there are times when it's simply the shot to take.
ymmv
-
AW had a published defensive strategy which recommended you go Head On to your opponent. Do this because his fire would most likely have no effect. If your opponent fired through the Head On confrontation you had a chance to get around on him first. This was because of his delay in manoeuvre while firing at your nose. That will not work here in Aces High. First because you most likely will get blasted from the sky or second you will collide and sustain damage. I believe Aces High is much better than the old Air Warrior. Complaints really do go loop de loop. Just my recollection of events past. In my opinion there are no better opponents than humans, every one has the capacity to spring a new trick or tactic. I believe you cannot fly your plane to please even a minority of pilots, especially if you shoot some of them down. That surely torques their jaws and brings their full wrath upon you. The old saying: put 100 fighter pilots into a room and tell them 99 will die today and 100 of them will look around the room at the 99 other poor unfortunates about to die.
-
AH method of getting hits on a plane is much better than AW.I could make shots in AW that just aren't doable in AH.The no collision made for better fights,as you could make the merge work for you w/o worrying about getting a face full of lead.Air Warrior was the best around at the time,and many of it's pilots came to AH,and they brought class acts with them.I will never speak poorly of the sim that got me started in my adventure in air to air combat.I'm enjoying AH very much at this time,after nearly quitting a couple of months ago.I try to overlook the things I don't care for,and the personalities that I disdain.My Skipper RT Holmes getting that HO with his Spit 1 was sweet as it came against one of the more notable Ho'ers in the game!
The Dawg
-
The no collision made for better fights,as you could make the merge work for you w/o worrying about getting a face full of lead.
Air Warrior was the best around at the time,and many of it's pilots came to AH,and they brought class acts with them.
I dont think the problem is with the game Irondog. Avoiding the HO/ram is a real challenge in AH and makes it more believable and interesting. Compared to the absolute retardation of having HO shots disabled and being able to ram clean through your opponent without fear of being towered is so gamey and retarded that its insulting to even consider bringing that tripe to AH.
The only time AW was the "best" was when it was the "only" horse in the race. Once WBs came on the scene AW was relegated to second fiddle.
-
Say it again Big Daddy!!!
I dont think the problem is with the game Irondog. Avoiding the HO/ram is a real challenge in AH and makes it more believable and interesting. Compared to the absolute retardation of having HO shots disabled and being able to ram clean through your opponent without fear of being towered is so gamey and retarded that its insulting to even consider bringing that tripe to AH.
I totally stand by what I said the page previous....... When I was a nugget, I couldn't get out of the way if I wanted to...... Nowadays, as my SA evolved, I can always get out of a head-on. (FOOTNOTE- Do not misinterpret that for meaning I won't ho you.... I will on many occasions, I just don't have to unless I want to)
-
I so rarely am even touched by a HO shot, even in a largely outnumbered fight. I don't see why old vets like you and Fugitive haven't learned how to avoid them after all these years. :headscratch:
I am only throwing this out here not a troll in anyway But if IronDog,and Fugitive are anything like the Vet DadsGuns I can see why you would go for the Ho shot
Only saying this because i hear all this talk of the old ways lol but yet i see the complete opposite from them
PS: Fugitive,IronDogg this was not meant towards you at all :salute :salute
-
I have no trouble avoiding the ho and do so VERY often.
The only problem I have with the HO is that while it's the first move everyone learns, today it also seems to be the last one they are learning. :(
-
So basically you're saying that you utterly lack any sort of skill that you need to resort to taking the head on shot? At least someone is willing to admit they aren't very good and need to resort to taking head on shots to make up for their lack of skill.
ack-ack
in those planes more often than not i do (190a8 mossy p39d). if u see im in a 109g6 g14 or f4u i will not ho
-
ho is part of the game and collisions too.
Let's avoid to be able to fire with zoom on because this is 'unrealistic'
If your zoom is on, then you can release your bombs only.
DAMN!
:salute
Off topic but zoomed all the way in is normal vision. The problem is that the field of view for normal vision is too narrow on an average monitor so we default to an unnatural wider angle view.
-
Off topic but zoomed all the way in is normal vision. The problem is that the field of view for normal vision is too narrow on an average monitor so we default to an unnatural wider angle view.
Point of order: Max zoom gives you about the same amount of DETAIL as normal vision... Only you only get that detail for one micro-fraction of your field of view. It really isn't comaparable. EDIT: I mean it isn't comparable to the comment above about no firiing when zoomed...
-
LOL! I'm sure guys like RAGS and Krieg really worked for those kills in AW.
ack-ack
RAGS! :bhead
Everything is better in AH but the people are about the same and many of us are literally the same people. :D
-
Point of order: Max zoom gives you about the same amount of DETAIL as normal vision... Only you only get that detail for one micro-fraction of your field of view. It really isn't comaparable. EDIT: I mean it isn't comparable to the comment above about no firiing when zoomed...
Krusty I believe you agree with me and you agree with my disagreement with Lulu. I'm puzzled that you frame your agreement as a point of order. :headscratch:
-
In WW2 pilots shot at other pilots from the 12 oclock position.
They did that because you can get a kill that way.
Why should that not work in AH?
In real life the HO shot would kill the whiner.
-
"Compared to the absolute retardation of having HO shots disabled and
being able to ram clean through your opponent without fear of being
towered is so gamey and retarded that its insulting to even consider
bringing that tripe to AH."
That is worth repeating a hundred times.
And what would be next. Eliminate stalling? Collisions?
Oh joy.
-
Krusty I believe you agree with me and you agree with my disagreement with Lulu. I'm puzzled that you frame your agreement as a point of order. :headscratch:
I do agree. However to clarify your statement I was countering that while you're right, it's not quite as good as human vision (the detail would be visible with a wide angle of peripheral vision still remaining). It's not "normal vision" -- it's comparable to the amount of details you would see in normal vision, without having to narrow down the focus.
Minor point, but a point nonetheless.
-
In WW2 pilots shot at other pilots from the 12 oclock position.
They did that because you can get a kill that way.
Why should that not work in AH?
In real life the HO shot would kill the whiner.
Because this is not real life. I'm with Filth. Not allowing HOs to be effective forces people to maneuver and fight, at least to a greater extent (you'll always have the b&z and pickets).
-oldman
-
It's just as artificial to make front-quarter shots have no effect as it would be to make tail shots have no effect, or "top" shots (anywhere from top down) have no effect.
You cannot defend that one. Period. It's the worst kind of gamey. Just because it happens to (in your description) lead to better gameplay -- which you cannot prove nor disprove and is totally subjective -- doesn't negate the terrible nature of the matter.
-
I do agree. However to clarify your statement I was countering that while you're right, it's not quite as good as human vision (the detail would be visible with a wide angle of peripheral vision still remaining). It's not "normal vision" -- it's comparable to the amount of details you would see in normal vision, without having to narrow down the focus.
Minor point, but a point nonetheless.
I agree but I had made that same point already, hence my confusion. I meant that it was normal vision in the sense that, given the proper distance from the eye for the monitor size, it would be like looking through a window. Lulu makes the common mis-perception that it's telescope vision.
-
"Compared to the absolute retardation of having HO shots disabled and
being able to ram clean through your opponent without fear of being
towered is so gamey and retarded that its insulting to even consider
bringing that tripe to AH."
That is worth repeating a hundred times.
And what would be next. Eliminate stalling? Collisions?
Oh joy.
BRING THE RR ARENAS TO AH! :devil
ack-ack
-
Because this is not real life. I'm with Filth. Not allowing HOs to be effective forces people to maneuver and fight, at least to a greater extent (you'll always have the b&z and pickets).
-oldman
We could also add to that, and really make the game exciting!
Let's see if we can get take-offs, landings, and rolling to the right eliminated! Imagine how much it would force us to maneuver and fight if we couldn't roll right!
Once that gets stagnant, we can eliminate flaps, and make left rudder application an instant death!
All in favor?
On a positive (?) note, this is actually nice to see. It's nice to finally have a game where people complain about the game being to realistic, and the difficulty they have overcoming opponents who use realistic tactics.
Sure beats the normal "the pony(or 38, or 109) is nerfed" posts.
-
Frankly I could care less if it was that way or not. It aint gonna happen here thats for sure. As for the "realistic" crowd, the one reason that way of flying is enjoyed be some, is because it isnt enjoyed by many others. People simply set themselves up as targets because they realize they wont really die, and want to get to the target area quickly, give the others advantages,and fly planes less than stellar in performance because they like that plane. Not because its a rocket ship.
Simmers preying on gamers, and horsepower are the reasons many have success in here and beat their chests. Imagine how boring it would be if EVERY player in here flew like his life depended on it.
Geez I came in here with 2 cents and left with a bag full of WGAF.
-
Imagine how boring it would be if EVERY player in here flew like his life depended on it.
I guess that explains the lack of air combat in WW2
-
Perhaps in the minds of some AcesHigh is having an identity Crisis.
What would be a better brand name? one that better describes the game we play and sometimes profess to love.....
WW2 Online? :bolt:
-
I'm confused.
Are you upset with the guys who don't care if they die?
People simply set themselves up as targets because they realize they wont really die
Or the ones who do care if they die?
Imagine how boring it would be if EVERY player in here flew like his life depended on it.
Personally, I think it would be boring at either (or both) extremes. We need the mix of desires to keep the game dynamic.
Actually, there's another option for the HO argument. Instead of making the front-quarter shots less effective, HTC could make the rear-quarter shots more effective. Maybe so one little hit in the rear destroys the opponent? I mean really, with the gunnery of the average pilot in AH there's no real point in making gunnery less effective anyway.
Of course, IMO that's an equally ridiculous notion, but... It would possibly tempt folks to fly around behind someone before they shoot?
-
Because this is not real life. I'm with Filth. Not allowing HOs to be effective forces people to maneuver and fight, at least to a greater extent (you'll always have the b&z and pickets).
-oldman
Damn Oldman..I have tons of respect for you but this is wrong.
What are you saying? You shoot a plane from the wrong angle and your bullets don't work?
-
Personally I love the Aces High HO system. It gives my enemies one extra way they can hang themselves by going for a weak shot I set up for them to have. "Here's your shot sweetheart, after you miss you'll be dead in 3 seconds."
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5u4TaPQhq7I/TMslo8j5CdI/AAAAAAAAAV0/eQWgahWiLTs/s1600/chasing+a+carrot.jpg)
-
I'm confused.
Are you upset with the guys who don't care if they die?
Or the ones who do care if they die?
Personally, I think it would be boring at either (or both) extremes. We need the mix of desires to keep the game dynamic.
Actually, there's another option for the HO argument. Instead of making the front-quarter shots less effective, HTC could make the rear-quarter shots more effective. Maybe so one little hit in the rear destroys the opponent? I mean really, with the gunnery of the average pilot in AH there's no real point in making gunnery less effective anyway.
Of course, IMO that's an equally ridiculous notion, but... It would possibly tempt folks to fly around behind someone before they shoot?
Mtnmn Im not upset with anyone. To clarify what I was saying, the ones who dont care (which is fine) give alot of the kills to the guys who do care(which is fine) Im just reminding a few of the folks who think they are awesome BECAUSE they are flying that way(realistic), and killing that way(targets who dont care) that is doesnt matter because really, not many really care. I hope that cleared it up..cuz I care :P
-
Bong got a lot of his kills using the HO.Hartmann got nearly all his by picking weak Russian opponents.Sneaking up to kill an opponent was the norm in WWII.Some players in AH could care less if they get ho'd or collide with someone.Some people like to furball,and some like to use B&Z tactics,or E fighting.Some play the game as tool shedders,or GV'ers.Some people hate to lose....2000 will verify that.It's just a game,and this thread is getting worn thin.Have fun!
The Dawg