Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Shifty on April 12, 2011, 05:03:10 PM
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Aircraft Kills Losses
A6M2 8 14
A6M2 TOP GUN Jbecks-3 kills
A6M5 139 84
A6M5 TOP GUN DanielTS- 25 kills
KI-61 111 80
KI-61 TOP GUN Shane -41 Kills
P-38G 76 86
P-38G TOP GUN FJames33- 21 kills
P-40E 39 70
P-40E TOP GUN C4159- 6 Kills
P-47D11 79 79
P-47D11 TOP GUN Shane-48 kills
It seems the A6M5 is running away with the kills a little ahead of the Ki-61 ATM. By the time this setup runs again we'll have the A6M3 in it's place it will be interesting to see what difference that makes.
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Interesting that the A6M5 is such an upgrade over the A6M2. Also interesting how badly it is mauling things which should be superior to it like the P-47D-11 and P-38G.
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Interesting that the A6M5 is such an upgrade over the A6M2. Also interesting how badly it is mauling things which should be superior to it like the P-47D-11 and P-38G.
An illustration of the difference between the arena and the real world. Rather than sticking to coordinated b&z attacks from an initial altitude advantage (as in the real world!) we're mostly starting co-alt (or less), with no wingman, and dogfighting. With equal pilots (also unlike the real world at this historical moment) the A6M5 is nearly always going to win under those conditions, and probably would have in the real world, too.
Last week, with the Spit 8 v. the G14 and A8, was a challenge for the Axis. This week is a challenge for the Allies. If you accept that from the outset, and treat it as an opportunity to get better in your plane under difficult circumstances, it's enjoyable. Shane and I (P-47 and P-40E, respectively) got clobbered repeatedly last night by Shuffler & Co. in their Zekes, but I believe we all enjoyed ourselves.
- oldman
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Do you think the lack of visual data is hurting the American aircraft in this setting and the German aircraft in the last? Given the ranges they need to start setting up their attacks, on my screen aircraft would be unidentifiable, nor would I be able to read their orientation until I was well committed. It seems to me that A6Ms and Spitfires (Hurricanes even better) would handle the shortened visibility better than aircraft used for boom and zoom tactics due to their ability to react and fight in closer proximity.
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......KITE......
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/6/0/5/6/2/4/webimg/363958823_o.jpg?nc=662)
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Do you think the lack of visual data is hurting the American aircraft in this setting and the German aircraft in the last? Given the ranges they need to start setting up their attacks, on my screen aircraft would be unidentifiable, nor would I be able to read their orientation until I was well committed. It seems to me that A6Ms and Spitfires (Hurricanes even better) would handle the shortened visibility better than aircraft used for boom and zoom tactics due to their ability to react and fight in closer proximity.
Just a matter of getting used to no icons, you use different visual clues. The b&z planes do fine under ordinary circumstances; I think they'd do fine in this setup if people wanted to fly them that way.
There is one ill effect of no icons in this particular setup, which I don't think anyone could have anticipated. The generic A6M5 camouflage blends amazingly well into this particular terrain. I am developing - very painfully - even better skills at picking them out of the ground clutter.
- oldman
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Do you think the lack of visual data is hurting the American aircraft in this setting and the German aircraft in the last? Given the ranges they need to start setting up their attacks, on my screen aircraft would be unidentifiable, nor would I be able to read their orientation until I was well committed. It seems to me that A6Ms and Spitfires (Hurricanes even better) would handle the shortened visibility better than aircraft used for boom and zoom tactics due to their ability to react and fight in closer proximity.
Actually once you have the guy spotted the BnZ type attack is deadly. Many times the guy you're attacking doesn't see you and you can easily be missed if he's not being extremely vigilant.
Many times all you'll hear is another airplane engine then you wake up in the hanger. If I hear another airplane engine and have no visual I'm usually screwed 99% of the time. Again as in the Main Arena we're not fighting at historical altitudes most of the combat is happening 5K or below playing into the more maneuverable aircraft's hands. Guys have come in with BnZ attacks before and worn people out.
It's just a matter of how the crowd is playing the setup IMO.
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[EDIT: replied to Oldman as Shifty was posting]
May be... But Karnak is right in that the real world allows you to tell what way a plane is facing and moving at much greater ranges. Here it's all or nothing until you're already comitted and can do nothing about it.
You try the same setups right after these, but with standard vision (standard 6.0 icons) and you'll have a different outcome, I'd wager. Different planes would rule the arena.
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Krusty I'm no real world fighter pilot, however during my years in the USAF I was very fortunate to get the chance to ride as a backseater in an F-16 during mock air to air fighting and twice in the right seat of A-37s. I'm not poo pooing on what you're saying I am saying that while pulling Gs watching your altitude and air speed and trying not to kill yourself, your opponent's aircraft is much harder to see track and attack than most people think. Visually analyzing a hard maneuvering airplane from the ground and analyzing a hard maneuvering airplane in another hard maneuvering airplane is very difficult. If it wasn't we'd all be fighter pilots. While I was an A-10 crew chief our pilots would regularly put black tape over their rank insignia when doing air to air training. Things like metallic Captain's bars could reflect light making a flash on the canopy and cause the pilot to mistake it for the sun reflecting off his opponents canopy. Of course these were Hog pilots and they needed all the help they could get in air to air stuff. ;) Most real fighter pilots will tell you it's the one you don't see that gets you. Not to mention they paint all these aircraft in low visibility schemes for a reason. I agree with you though no enemy icons is probably much more difficult than real life visually, but I'd also say big red icons out to 6k are too simplistic. I know a real world fighter pilot's opinion and there are a couple in the community would be much better to use for this discussion than my limited experiances.
<S>
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It extremely simple to tell how the AC is oreanted. There are gobs of visual ques. Direction of dot..is it... descending/assending /closing/extending/ turning/bracketing. along with other info like radar,tracers,communication, as only a few examples
On this map the axis low against the terrain show up as movement that can be spotted. At further distance there skins turn white so its a dead giveaway its a Zeke especially with a glance at the dar dots and other info like heading ect.
Its all very intuitive. Its simply a mater of connecting the dots no pun intended..
For someone who isn't used to no icons the adjustment is a simple mater of looking for a different kind of visual data than one might be accustomed to.
It becomes second nature in short order if not immediately with just a littel common sense.
The A6M5 just out climb and turn its that simple. seems more tend to choose it also..
Only way I can get solid kills on axis is I'm allied is coming in from alt on a bounce and staying fast. Kind of like real world tactics. Co alt merge 1v1 the Zeke rules most of the time other than when the extremal talented are flying ailed, or I just stink. I'm not that great anyway with the allied ac in this set up.
.. It has nothing to do with icons on or off.
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i do have to somewhat agree with krusty and karnak when it comes to determining the orientation of a con when it is seen as a dot...7-800+ yards out and it's difficult to tell which direction the nose is pointing, even with full zoom...it's just the way objects get rendered. maybe if we all had 42 inch monitors like dichotomy, it might be a tad bit easier, but i personally can't even afford to look at one much less buy it.
if you think the zekes are hard to spot low on the deck, the jugs and warhawks are almost as bad...the 38 is probably the easiest to spot...it twinkles in the sunlight :D
maybe one day the object rendering will improve to the point where things don't turn into dots at 3000 feet distance...who knows
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Its obvious what way the AC is pointing by how its flying. If its getting closer its coming your way ect. I don't see the problem :headscratch:
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Its obvious what way the AC is pointing by how its flying. If its getting closer its coming your way ect. I don't see the problem :headscratch:
:rofl :lol you can't tell right away whether it's flying at you, away from you or parallel to you...it's only after some observation that you realize which direction it's flying.
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RGR, but not much observation time is needed to determine whats going on to get into position.
Especially when combining all the other information available. There is plenty of time.
Heck if a blind bat like me can tell whats going on anyone can :cheers:
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i do have to somewhat agree with krusty and karnak when it comes to determining the orientation of a con when it is seen as a dot...7-800+ yards out and it's difficult to tell which direction the nose is pointing, even with full zoom...it's just the way objects get rendered. maybe if we all had 42 inch monitors like dichotomy, it might be a tad bit easier, but i personally can't even afford to look at one much less buy it.
if you think the zekes are hard to spot low on the deck, the jugs and warhawks are almost as bad...the 38 is probably the easiest to spot...it twinkles in the sunlight :D
maybe one day the object rendering will improve to the point where things don't turn into dots at 3000 feet distance...who knows
Have you looked at my stats lately? ;)
Better equipment doesn't necessarily equate to better skills. Shifty and I have talked about this offline at great length.
I'd love to put some of you in this seat and see how much slaughter and pillage you could inflict (a lot I'm betting). To be honest I'd probably cheerfully give somebody one of these monitors to give me a weekends worth of hands on instruction.
Back on topic.
90% of the time when I take a hard look at the planeset I'm flying against I've got a pretty decent idea of what's coming at me based on the flight profile. What generally works in the MA's and the FSO's doesn't necessarily translate into success in the AVA. Unless you're flying with a group.
I'm horrible in a 1v1 because I have a tendency to dive into a fight and try to turn with any and everybody but I do a fairly decent job of holding my own as a wingman.
But that's me.
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[EDIT: replied to Oldman as Shifty was posting]
May be... But Karnak is right in that the real world allows you to tell what way a plane is facing and moving at much greater ranges. Here it's all or nothing until you're already comitted and can do nothing about it.
You try the same setups right after these, but with standard vision (standard 6.0 icons) and you'll have a different outcome, I'd wager. Different planes would rule the arena.
Sorry Krusty, but this is just not true.
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Krusty I'm no real world fighter pilot, however during my years in the USAF I was very fortunate to get the chance to ride as a backseater in an F-16 during mock air to air fighting and twice in the right seat of A-37s. I'm not poo pooing on what you're saying I am saying that while pulling Gs watching your altitude and air speed and trying not to kill yourself, your opponent's aircraft is much harder to see track and attack than most people think. Visually analyzing a hard maneuvering airplane from the ground and analyzing a hard maneuvering airplane in another hard maneuvering airplane is very difficult. If it wasn't we'd all be fighter pilots. While I was an A-10 crew chief our pilots would regularly put black tape over their rank insignia when doing air to air training. Things like metallic Captain's bars could reflect light making a flash on the canopy and cause the pilot to mistake it for the sun reflecting off his opponents canopy. Of course these were Hog pilots and they needed all the help they could get in air to air stuff. ;) Most real fighter pilots will tell you it's the one you don't see that gets you. Not to mention they paint all these aircraft in low visibility schemes for a reason. I agree with you though no enemy icons is probably much more difficult than real life visually, but I'd also say big red icons out to 6k are too simplistic. I know a real world fighter pilot's opinion and there are a couple in the community would be much better to use for this discussion than my limited experiances.
<S>
You're absolutely right, Shifty! ......lose sight, lose fight.
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Better equipment doesn't necessarily equate to better skills. Shifty and I have talked about this offline at great length.
Yep the more I upgrade the worse I get. :D
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It all comes down to the fundamentals; BFM. The individual computer system is going to have some effect on visual lookout. Once the visual is obtained and BFM is used effectively, it's then a matter of good guns tracking and lead for the kill shot against the guy who made the first mistake. My problem is this wise acre crew chief assigned to my ride keeps loading smurf bullets. :lol
Check Six! :salute
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Shifty, what you're talking about is after the merge. The problem is BFM are nearly impossible if all you get is a dot on the screen with no heading, angle, or direction until it's already too late.
I agree with "lose sight, lose the fight" -- and this remains true even with icons enabled. I've lost sight in the MA many times and it has cost me dearly.
You seem to think that BFM and basic flight tactics and whatnot don't work with icons enabled. This is a false assumption and historic manuvers prove just as useful and just as effective in AH as they do in the real world. Icons don't give you anything. They make up for a LACK of something.
The few die hard no-icons folks you all have in the AvA seem to not listen to any comments contrary to the no-icon doctrine, IMO. Karnak says "Icons change the results" and you reply "you need to try harder" -- maybe he does need to try harder to get the same result but it doesn't negate the truth in his comment.
No offense meant. Being honest here.
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You seem to think that BFM and basic flight tactics and whatnot don't work with icons enabled. This is a false assumption and historic manuvers prove just as useful and just as effective in AH as they do in the real world. Icons don't give you anything. They make up for a LACK of something.
I believe you're making an assumption on me there. I don't believe this at all. I don't know where I've posted anything stating this as my belief or assumption. I was just giving you my limited experiance in actual mock air to air engagements. Which again is very limited and a long time ago when I was a much younger man. I was very surprised how hard the other guy was to see before or after the merge. I'm not against icons in the AVA so don't assume I'm debating you trying to prove a point. Actually I prefer icons but limited as in the FSO but it's not my decision to make.
<S>
PS I love those FW-190 profiles you did for BOG. Those were freaking sweet, I envy your talent. :aok
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This is a recurring discussion. Do I want realism with no icons or do I want to have icon banners that make up for system limitations? We have several other arenas that have the icons turned on 24/7 which gives everyone a lot of options. So, it begs the question. Why the continued issue about the current no icon AvA setup which provides one more additional option for AH game play?
As far as visual lookout, the in game differences with visual acuity are similar to any given day out in the real world with the many varied lighting and weather conditions. In the day and now, pilots have the same problems with picking up a dot and trying to determine if it is coming or going. It's a matter of watching the dot and it's relative movement on the canopy. If it stays in the same spot and is getting bigger, you are going to occupy the same airspace in the future. If it's moving back you are going to be in front. If it's moving forward, you are going to be in back of the dot. It's simply a matter of keeping your eye on the dot. Then, as it gets larger, VID it, and start the conversion/BFM into a firing solution if it happens to be a bandit.
Yeah, the modern day fighters have all the technology to pickup BVR, EID, and shoot a long way out. But, if someone gets in close in today's environment, it's once again a visual fight and time to keep an eye on the dot.
Just some thoughts........
Check Six! :aok
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Its amazing that the critics of the AVA and no icons very rarely if ever fly in it.
Yet speak as if they have more experience than those of us that fly in there every night. :headscratch:
Let me tell you this if I couldn't tell the direction of a dot and couldn't set my self up until it was 'to late' I wouldn't return to the arena night after night.
Further if it was so impossible and sucked so bad with no icons then the arena wouldn't draw the caliber of sticks and squads that frequent the arena.
Are no icons challenging?... Yup that's what makes it so much fun, and a refreshing change from the status quo.
There are many many more ways to ascertain the position of a Dots/cons direction other than from a glowing red icon. Why hold others back because you don't yet understand how?
Will you get your wings blown off in the AVA at first?.... Yep, sure will. Against an experienced no icon pilot you will get eaten alive. No question.
But think about this, if others can do well in there, eventually so will you.
Its not that no icons is elite or anything like that. Its just different. It requires a new set of skills to become proficient. Skills that some would rather criticise than try to learn.
That's narrow minded IMO. To each their own.
Its simply not right to criticise something because you cant do it well due to lack of experience, or because your not willing to try.
Or use a lame excuse about not knowing a dots heading because there is no icon spoon feeding you distance from 6k out.. how much time do you need... :rolleyes:
When I start to see the critics of the AVA actually flying in it frequently enough to develop a well informed opinion and gain some first hand experience, I'll have more respect for the off the cuff "Opinions"
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quick, someone toss raven a twinkie!!! he's going through sugar withdrawals
here raven...look at this for a while
(http://femaleimagination.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/nice_cleavage.jpg)
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:O
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Its amazing that the critics of the AVA and no icons very rarely if ever fly in it.
Yet speak as if they have more experience than those of us that fly in there every night. :headscratch:
Let me tell you this if I couldn't tell the direction of a dot and couldn't set my self up until it was 'to late' I wouldn't return to the arena night after night.
Further if it was so impossible and sucked so bad with no icons then the arena wouldn't draw the caliber of sticks and squads that frequent the arena.
Are no icons challenging?... Yup that's what makes it so much fun, and a refreshing change from the status quo.
There are many many more ways to ascertain the position of a Dots/cons direction other than from a glowing red icon. Why hold others back because you don't yet understand how?
Will you get your wings blown off in the AVA at first?.... Yep, sure will. Against an experienced no icon pilot you will get eaten alive. No question.
But think about this, if others can do well in there, eventually so will you.
Its not that no icons is elite or anything like that. Its just different. It requires a new set of skills to become proficient. Skills that some would rather criticise than try to learn.
That's narrow minded IMO. To each their own.
Its simply not right to criticise something because you cant do it well due to lack of experience, or because your not willing to try.
Or use a lame excuse about not knowing a dots heading because there is no icon spoon feeding you distance from 6k out.. how much time do you need... :rolleyes:
When I start to see the critics of the AVA actually flying in it frequently enough to develop a well informed opinion and gain some first hand experience, I'll have more respect for the off the cuff "Opinions"
Well said, Raven! It is beyond comprehension why some come in and P & M about no icons when, like you said, they don't frequent the AvA. I don't care for icons at all, but I have enough respect for other's right to enjoy their $14.95 a month to play the way they want and don't go over to the other forums to complain about icons.
It wouldn't bother me to have all the icons turned off in the AvA. The more realistic the better as far as I'm concerned. But, that's a whole other discussion. :salute
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As far as visual lookout, the in game differences with visual acuity are similar to any given day out in the real world with the many varied lighting and weather conditions. In the day and now, pilots have the same problems with picking up a dot and trying to determine if it is coming or going. It's a matter of watching the dot and it's relative movement on the canopy. If it stays in the same spot and is getting bigger, you are going to occupy the same airspace in the future. If it's moving back you are going to be in front. If it's moving forward, you are going to be in back of the dot. It's simply a matter of keeping your eye on the dot. Then, as it gets larger, VID it, and start the conversion/BFM into a firing solution if it happens to be a bandit.
I have not been a real-world fighter pilot like Puma and 1Duke1, but in general aviation aircraft the technique is the same as described here. Icons don't really tell you anything more than rate of closure (or separation), certainly not heading or altitude changes.
- oldman
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I have not been a real-world fighter pilot like Puma and 1Duke1, but in general aviation aircraft the technique is the same as described here. Icons don't really tell you anything more than rate of closure (or separation), certainly not heading or altitude changes.
- oldman
I'm not either, Oldman. Just listened and learned a lot from those who know what they are talking about. But, thanks for the compliment. :salute You are spot on though, Oldman. But, whether it be a dot in the air or an icon on the screen, one, with practice, can deduce a lot about the bandit's altitude and heading. :aok
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When I start to see the critics of the AVA actually flying in it frequently enough to develop a well informed opinion and gain some first hand experience, I'll have more respect for the off the cuff "Opinions"
uhhhhh......
:noid
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NO NO NO, not the icons vs no icons discussion again.
Look, we all know the PC can't replicate human eye site.
Let's just say the no icon setting is unrealistic in a more realistic looking way.
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icons are a toggable feature...
nothing stops an *individual* from opting to turn them off for *their* "immersion."
but noooooo.... has to be forced on everyone, most usually endorsed by those who don't do very well with icons enabled in the first place.
no icons = more of a crutch than icons = on, especially when you have friendly icons enabled and in-flight radar.
that's my "experienced" opinion.
:aok
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icons are a toggable feature...
nothing stops an *individual* from opting to turn them off for *their* "immersion."
but noooooo.... has to be forced on everyone, most usually endorsed by those who don't do very well with icons enabled in the first place.
no icons = more of a crutch than icons = on, especially when you have friendly icons enabled and in-flight radar.
that's my "experienced" opinion.
:aok
and in my "experienced" opinion, you're wrong...several of us don't need any icons on but if you can figure out a better way to identify the pilot in a friendly i'm all ears. that is very much the only real reason for friendly icons in the ava at this point.
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and in my "experienced" opinion, you're wrong...several of us don't need any icons on but if you can figure out a better way to identify the pilot in a friendly i'm all ears. that is very much the only real reason for friendly icons in the ava at this point.
you have radio, right? I wonder how they did it in the real war?
why no go full real... no icons whatsoever... no in flight dot dar (in tower, fine, let someone immerse themselves in the ground control role)... turn killshooter off.
didn't think so.
I don't *need* icons enabled myself either, but that's not what my point was... it gives an unfair advantage to friendlies (friendly only icons)
It remains a player-option whether to enable them or not to varying degrees. I understand why "you" don't want icons - for your immersion, right? How does my ability to have icons affect your immersion?
not to mention (or rehash the "word" from HT himself about why we have icons in the first place.)
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i wouldn't mind turning killshooter off and no icons at all...when, i can identify the friendly in the furball by the paint scheme on his airplane...and from more than 3000 feet away (1k from your cockpit).
as it sits the issues you're using to reinforce your argument are the exact reasons for the compromise of having short range friendly icons turned on...and it is a compromise...would you feel better if enemy icons were turned on to 1-1.5k range (3000-4500 feet)? in all seriousness that's about the maximum range that absolute positive identification can be made between a 109 and a spitfire under ideal conditions.
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My two cents:
No enemy icon is a different animal. There is no use in trying to compare it to anything really. I enjoy it most, when I am in communication with others. I enjoy it least when, I am twisting and squirming around and the other guy is just better at staying in my blind spot ( :rolleyes: that would be you Shane).
What I find, is that I am most successful when flying with another pilot who is communicating and we both are working together to either get to the shot or setting up the shot for the other. This might rub against those that are used to the arena being a sort of dueling contest for historical types.
I do respect everyone's opinion here. I totally enjoy the no enemy icons, and it is not because I do better with them off. It is just the only place where it seems reasonable, and brings into play more than just the ACM aspect of AH2. Shane, Krusty, and AvA group as a whole have their own perception of what is a fun experience for them (mine is stated above). With each setup, terrains and plane skins just add another dimension to the fun that is all. It is no more realistic, than a pilot having a fresh new plane everytime he rolls down the runway. One that he is going to hold the throttle wide open, for mostly his entire flight.
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(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif)
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Do you think the lack of visual data is hurting the American aircraft in this setting and the German aircraft in the last? Given the ranges they need to start setting up their attacks, on my screen aircraft would be unidentifiable, nor would I be able to read their orientation until I was well committed. It seems to me that A6Ms and Spitfires (Hurricanes even better) would handle the shortened visibility better than aircraft used for boom and zoom tactics due to their ability to react and fight in closer proximity.
no....it has more to do with the fact that seeing as this is game, most of us don't tend to fly our cartoon aircraft as they were designed to be flown, as opposed to the rl pilots, who either flew their aircraft as they were designed, or they didn't live to fly their next mission.
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quick, someone toss raven a twinkie!!! he's going through sugar withdrawals
here raven...look at this for a while
(http://femaleimagination.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/nice_cleavage.jpg)
best post in this thread. :aok
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I have not been a real-world fighter pilot like Puma and 1Duke1, but in general aviation aircraft the technique is the same as described here. Icons don't really tell you anything more than rate of closure (or separation), certainly not heading or altitude changes.
- oldman
in other words...icons are crutches?
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icons are a toggable feature...
nothing stops an *individual* from opting to turn them off for *their* "immersion."
but noooooo.... has to be forced on everyone, most usually endorsed by those who don't do very well with icons enabled in the first place.
no icons = more of a crutch than icons = on, especially when you have friendly icons enabled and in-flight radar.
that's my "experienced" opinion.
:aok
ya know? i hear from everyone that you're a pretty cool guy. i heard it first, from someone i VERY highly respect. yet everything i see of you in the forums, and in the arena, you're pretty much a love muffin.
so which is the real you? nice guy, or love muffin?
icons are NOT being forced on everyone. if you don't want to fly without them, you've got at least FOUR other arenas to fly in where they are on. go there, or stop your whining about them here. :bhead :bhead
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you have radio, right? I wonder how they did it in the real war?
why no go full real... no icons whatsoever... no in flight dot dar (in tower, fine, let someone immerse themselves in the ground control role)... turn killshooter off.
didn't think so.
I don't *need* icons enabled myself either, but that's not what my point was... it gives an unfair advantage to friendlies (friendly only icons)
It remains a player-option whether to enable them or not to varying degrees. I understand why "you" don't want icons - for your immersion, right? How does my ability to have icons affect your immersion?
not to mention (or rehash the "word" from HT himself about why we have icons in the first place.)
how is it that it gives an unfair advantage to friendlies again?
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how is it that it gives an unfair advantage to friendlies again?
do i really need to spell it out?
ok i will since you're not seeing (heh) the obvious...
youre cruising along you see two dots one green one red in your in-flight radar very close together you acquire visual on those two dots you go tearing in as you hit friendly icon range you can figure out that oh its your ally that is in trouble being pursued and with minimal effort due to the visual cues you get from that friendly icon you can easily set up for the pick err save and your ally can easily set it up for you as he knows exactly who and where you are in relation to himself on the other hand you if your ally is in pursuit you can also use that visual info to determine whether you might be needed to run down the con or if theyre twisting and turning its easier tio come tearing in and clear their 12 errr help take out the badguy before more come in now expand this to a mini furball yes both sides benefit or suffer but you cant deny that having friendly icons in that environment is a bonus to the friendlies do i need to post some screenies where i ask you to spot the plane tell me what it is and how far out it is i think HT himself has already weighed in on the overall concept of limitations imposed by current technology vs mark 1 eyeballs
now let me ask.. is punctuation a crutch? or are they visual cues, needed for the written word as opposed to the spoken, in making communication more effective for that modality? suppose i only chose to use a limited set of punctuation. i.e., only used capital letters between sentences? ever see the effects of a wild or missing comma or apostrophe? :aok
I could (and will) more easily demonstrate the point with a simple question:
For those of you who prefer the "immersion" of no-icons, why should you care if I have *my* icons enabled while you don't - how is this messing with *your* immersion?
and for the record my "immersion" are the historical matchups (not nccessarily structured under event-style) and to a lesser extent, the cool maps.
<edit> as for the cool guy / love muffin thing... was there a point to this ad hominuim? should I sic moot on you? but to answer, the question, I am very reflective in that what you give is what you get. you will not see me out of the blue just go off on someone in game (and almost never on the BBS.) i will call people on their in-game behavior, especially when i see the often overtly recognizable hypocrisy between what's being said and what's being done and at which point, you'll see me jump right into and play *that* game, too. i never claimed to be perfect (see sig :aok )... or always take the high road - I generally try to, until... the ugly monster of hypocrisy raises it's ugleee haid, then i can ho, gang, pick and vulch with best of them. :banana:
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(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif)
Why is it a dead horse? Are you speaking for yourself or as an AvA staffer? IIRC not every staffer shares this sentiment and appear to be open to consideration for change... or am i wrong in that perception and there's *no* way this horse will ever run again?
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It appears this thread has run off the road, into the bar ditch, and run over the horse more than once. :D
:salute
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I'm just going to throw out my point of view on this pointless debate. I prefer the arena just the way it is. The advantages and disadvantages work both ways. The type of play has been set by a group of volunteers that care a great deal for the health of the arena. Some things about it I don't particularly care for others I actively embrace. And some things that are evolving I really don't care for. But it happens in all areas of life. You can improvise and move on or continually rage against something that you can not personally control. Pointless use of resources in my opinion.
But you know what? This is where I choose to play. I like most of the people and enjoy the historical set ups.
Other than that the best thing I think I can do is shut up and fly.
This debate has raged ad nauseum for a while now. I think it would be in everybody s best interests to put it to bed and move on to other topics. Nothing is going to change in the foreseeable future as far as I can tell.
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youre cruising along you see two dots one green one red in your in-flight radar very close together you acquire visual on those two dots you go tearing in as you hit friendly icon range you can figure out that oh its your ally that is in trouble being pursued and with minimal effort due to the visual cues you get from that friendly icon you can easily set up for the pick err save and your ally can easily set it up for you as he knows exactly who and where you are in relation to himself on the other hand you if your ally is in pursuit you can also use that visual info to determine whether you might be needed to run down the con or if theyre twisting and turning its easier tio come tearing in and clear their 12 errr help take out the badguy before more come in now expand this to a mini furball yes both sides benefit or suffer but you cant deny that having friendly icons in that environment is a bonus to the friendlies do i need to post some screenies where i ask you to spot the plane tell me what it is and how far out it is i think HT himself has already weighed in on the overall concept of limitations imposed by current technology vs mark 1 eyeballs
I have mark2 eyeballs, helps with depth perception. Tried using a mark1 imitation but it just wasn't the same. Current technology is not the issue, it's the programming and that has a lot to do with allowing older hardware to run the software with various levels of detail.
Now, if as you try to claim, friendly icons are a "crutch", what do you think would happen if all icons were turned off? You and many others don't like having to fight more than 1 enemy at a time, I personally enjoy it. But, turning friendly icons off or reducing the range further than what we use now makes flying in pairs or groups almost mandatory for any success, especially when there is a good sized group of people in the arena. We have tried it a few times and due to the technical reasons you attempt to use as reinforcement to justify arcade level icon settings, the results were unsavory for many. We tried shorter range friendly icon settings with similar results.
I'm somewhat sure you are intelligent enough to understand the meaning of "compromise". After much discussion and argument the current icon settings being used are a "compromise", just as the arcade settings in the main arenas are. The intent is to give people who choose to enjoy a slightly more immersive experience the opportunity to do so without crippling their ability to be somewhat competitive or forcing behavior that the jousting crowd doesn't like.
If you have an actual idea of icon settings you would truly like to see tested in the arena for playability, we are all ears. Think about what you want to try, how the settings would affect everyone in the arena, what the possible pitfalls are and write it up in an intelligent manner. I guarantee they will be discussed and arrangements to try them at least 1 day will be made so we can all see how they are received by the people who frequent the arena. If it's more successful than what we are doing now, it could very well turn into a standard and replace the current settings.
However, if you cannot bring yourself to do anything more than what others who do not frequent the arena do and spout a bunch of b.s. trying to belittle our efforts, you are cordially invited to go enjoy all the arcade goodness of the other arenas.
p.s. your sig...the word is people. :neener:
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do i really need to spell it out?
ok i will since you're not seeing (heh) the obvious...
youre cruising along you see two dots one green one red in your in-flight radar very close together you acquire visual on those two dots you go tearing in as you hit friendly icon rangeif you truly believe this, then we all should stop using radio and text comms, 'cause i know when i'm approaching the situation you mention, that i'm already in contact with the friendly, loooong before i'm in icon range....if he wants help, i barrel in....if not, then i continue on, or watch the fight from a safe distance. you can figure out that oh its your ally that is in trouble being pursued and with minimal effort due to the visual cues you get from that friendly iconyou can figure this also without the icons....with the map zoomed in. you can easily set up for the pick err save you talk of hypocrisy, yet the only times you've kilt me in particyular, have been by picking me. i'm not saying you couldn't otherwise kill me(cap kills don't count), just saying......and your ally can easily set it up for you as he knows exactly who and where you are in relation to himselfagain, comms.......we do it all the time. on the other hand you if your ally is in pursuit you can also use that visual info to determine whether you might be needed to run down the con or if theyre twisting and turning its easier tio come tearing in and clear their 12 errr help take out the badguy before more come in now expand this to a mini furball yes both sides benefit or suffer but you cant deny that having friendly icons in that environment is a bonus to the friendlies do i need to post some screenies where i ask you to spot the plane tell me what it is and how far out it is i think HT himself has already weighed in on the overall concept of limitations imposed by current technology vs mark 1 eyeballs
now let me ask.. is punctuation a crutch? or are they visual cues, needed for the written word as opposed to the spoken, in making communication more effective for that modality? suppose i only chose to use a limited set of punctuation. i.e., only used capital letters between sentences? ever see the effects of a wild or missing comma or apostrophe? :aokpoor analogy
I could (and will) more easily demonstrate the point with a simple question:
For those of you who prefer the "immersion" of no-icons, why should you care if I have *my* icons enabled while you don't - how is this messing with *your* immersion? because now, you know what you're merging with at 6k yards, whereas we need to get closer....giving you the advantage. if you don't like the lack of icons, then go away. go somewhere else, like the other 4+ arenas where they're on.
and for the record my "immersion" are the historical matchups (not nccessarily structured under event-style) and to a lesser extent, the cool maps.
<edit> as for the cool guy / love muffin thing... was there a point to this ad hominuim? should I sic moot on you? but to answer, the question, I am very reflective in that what you give is what you get. you will not see me out of the blue just go off on someone in game (and almost never on the BBS.)if you're insuating that my previous outburst was "out of the blue", you're wrong. you have been beating this dead horse for weeks now. you shouldbe(and probably did) expect someone to go off on ya about it. i will call people on their in-game behavior, especially when i see the often overtly recognizable hypocrisy between what's being said and what's being done and at which point, you'll see me jump right into and play *that* game, too. i never claimed to be perfect (see sig :aok )... none of us are perfect. i would however rather be able to believe those that tell me you're a pretty cool guy. but when you keep hammering this crap in here, or when you play the "game" and use your knowledge of how lag works, to collide a guy(see the thread from a week or sao ago), because you ran outta ammo, and just HAD to have that kill.....wel....makes it hard. or always take the high road - I generally try to, until... the ugly monster of hypocrisy raises it's ugleee haid, then i can ho, gang, pick and vulch with best of them. :banana:
i will also throw an apology out to you for my "abrasive" response to you.......
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Why is it a dead horse? Are you speaking for yourself or as an AvA staffer? IIRC not every staffer shares this sentiment and appear to be open to consideration for change... or am i wrong in that perception and there's *no* way this horse will ever run again?
i'm not a staffer, but i am a regular(when i get back into the cartoon skies), i'm in the dev group, etc.......and i agree with him.
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You and many others don't like having to fight more than 1 enemy at a time, I personally enjoy it.
If you have an actual idea of icon settings you would truly like to see tested in the arena for playability, we are all ears. If it's more successful than what we are doing now, it could very well turn into a standard and replace the current settings.
However, if you cannot bring yourself to do anything more than what others who do not frequent the arena do and spout a bunch of b.s. trying to belittle our efforts, you are cordially invited to go enjoy all the arcade goodness of the other arenas.
p.s. your sig...the word is people. :neener:
Only 4 points to address in your emotionally charged reply :noid
1. I don't mind fighting an actual coordinated pair of wingies. I got as good as I am over the years fighting multiple bogies at the same time, as opposed to being one of the multiples, remaining stuck on suck. Current gameplay is nothing less than DA style of furball lake or 1 v 1 action (depends on nbrs mostly) - take about "arcade" - but I'm okay with that; I do just as well with or without icons. There is very little reason to actually use proper "tactics" in the AvA. Sure, some take a feeble stab at it now and then. :rofl
2. I think number$ show just about any other arena (and events) - all using those "arcade" settings, having a more sustainable playerbase. The weakest being WW1 and early-war. Just look at how many participate in the scenarios and FSO, etc... all 'historical" matchups, yet those numbers don't translate over to the AvA, imho, in part due to icon settings as well as #1 above in there's no point/objective. :headscratch:
3. I firmly believe that it's the matchups that appeal more to the current/potential AvA playerbase than the no-icon setting and in fact the no-icon setting is holding down growth of the AVA. Take another look at the AvA chart Lusche did and while we can all draw different conclusions, the fact remains that raw #'s have remained relatively flat (actually in decline) over the course of this no-icon implementation. No-icons is a novelty for most players, they'll come in, give it a try, and ultimately leave. Natural attrition is pacing the addition of "new" AvA fans - flat growth. :bhead
4. I deliberately chose to spell it the way I did. :aok
I'm taking the high road here and not even bothering to respond to your more personal attacks. I'll just go ahead and dismiss you as the newbie noob you arp.. errr, I mean, are. :banana: And there's a very good chance I'll still be here long after you and other like-"minded" poepl burnout and leave.
Sooooo... it's been a year now with this rigid, inflexible and clique-ish thinking. Perhaps it's time to occasionally "experiment" the other way?
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Sooooo... it's been a year now with this rigid, inflexible and clique-ish thinking. Perhaps it's time to occasionally "experiment" the other way?
depends.....how many years have you been dating women? it's kind of "cliquish" ya know. maybe it's time to "experiment" the other way? :noid :noid :bhead
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i will also throw an apology out to you for my "abrasive" response to you.......
No need to apologize except perhaps for statements like this, especially coming from someone involved with the dev "group" and a wannabe staffer,
"if you don't like the lack of icons, then go away. go somewhere else, like the other 4+ arenas where they're on" - I believe it's my dime and I can play where I want. And on that note, NRaven so nicely pointed out in a PM that there exist at least 3 other games that use the no-icon setting, IL2, A-10 warthog and Rise of Flight. Why don't *you* go play *them*? You have options just like you say I do.
and
"you have been beating this dead horse for weeks now. you should be (and probably did) expect someone to go off on ya about it." - I have? really? Beyond my initital posts when I returned to the game (and AvA) I haven't really agitated about the no-icon setting. Do a search. Nor do I make an issue of it when I'm flying.
Statements like that show you only see what you want that will support what you want - not the most conducive of an attitude considering what you hope to be, dev/staffer. A closed mind is a dangerous thing for those given authority.
Attack the person, not the idea seems to be the modus operandi for quite a few in the AVA forum. Personally I hope you don't become a staffer... diversity is needed more than narrow-minded cookie-cutter sameness. See... I merely reflect. :aok
meh.
Bet Skuzzy will lock this now, and ironically it won't be because of me per se, but as usual I'll take the blame for it. Don't worry, I can handle it. :neener:
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depends.....how many years have you been dating women? it's kind of "cliquish" ya know. maybe it's time to "experiment" the other way? :noid :noid :bhead
I won't even dignify this weaksauce statement beyond stating that I firmly hope you do not become an AvA staffer - you're unfit.
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I won't even dignify this weaksauce statement beyond stating that I firmly hope you do not become an AvA staffer - you're unfit.
that was halfway intended as dry humor. possibly i should've used this instead..... :neener:
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that was halfway intended as dry humor. possibly i should've used this instead..... :neener:
you spin a lot for being a zeke-dweeb. :banana:
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you spin a lot for being a zeke-dweeb. :banana:
i haven't flown the zeek in any of the set ups in the ava. i generally fly allied, unless the sides are uneven, then i'll switch as necessary to try n keep the sides somewhat even.
i like flying in the arena as it is. it's fun, and not necessarily harder than the other arenas, but rather it requires a different skill set.
i've not been on much at all, due to some stuff in rl, which is also creating a little of my abrasiveness. i need to get back in there though. i sucked to begin with, and will suck worse now. but i still have fun.
as for me being a staffer.....i don't think i'd want that job. i don't have the patience that's exhibited by our staffers here now. i know i couldn't dio as good of a job as those guys all do.
i enjoy being in the dev group, because i'm writing setups. that's a lot more fun, and addictive than i had expected it to be. as long as i know people are having fun on a setup i did, it's worth the time.
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My zeke comment was a reference to your beginnings in AH... :neener: I'm aware you've expanded your limited skillset to a limited selection of planes. :noid
As I've repeatedly said, I don't have an issue flying with no-icons (in the limited sense we have now) - I do just fine, tyvm.
I do take exception to the way the "defense" of this setting is being presented.
You, and others, acknowledge that flying without icons vs an opponent with them is an "advantage." So it's not totally about "immersion" now is it? Stop using that as a rationale if you're going with half-measures that provide the very advantages that you consider unfair to begin with.
I'm very aware of the concept of concessions (and personal preferences) when it comes to settings and gameplay. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express my opinions, now does it? Just like you all, I'd like to see more and better players in the AvA. Now that the whole storch thing is more distant, you need to consider what really brought up the seeming "rise" of AvA... I dispute that it's the no-icon settings. Where'd all those Finns go?
There will always be a small group of "realism/immersion" poepl - I'm one of them, it's just that *my* immersion are the matchups, not the settings. And I will continue to avow that no-icons in conjunction with friendly-only icons is a crutch.
And believe it or not, I do appreciate the efforts players put into running this arena, as evidenced by the fact I actually play in it on a regular basis.
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I do take exception to the way the "defense" of this setting is being presented.
You, and others, acknowledge that flying without icons vs an opponent with them is an "advantage." So it's not totally about "immersion" now is it? Stop using that as a rationale if you're going with half-measures that provide the very advantages that you consider unfair to begin with.
WHAT? where in the world did you come up with that nonesense. none of us has said any such thing. that's a nasty bit of selective comprehension.
so i'm guessing by your response to my invitiation to put up or shut up, you're choosing to just continue ankle humping others and parrot what they say. i'm really surprised since you claim to be of superior intellect and skill, i would have thought you could come up with a better solution than the 10 people who are making an honest attempt to provide a more immersive experience to players. as for me being a noob, i've seen your gamey acm and if that's the best you have, i would much rather be considered a noob. at least when my toon goes down, it does so after an honest effort.
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My zeke comment was a reference to your beginnings in AH... :neener: I'm aware you've expanded your limited skillset to a limited selection of planes. :noidi didn't fly a zeek early on. i was one of "them" that came in and tried jumping in a pony. i died a LOT without ever firing a shot. moved on to a hurri2, then spit, then zeek, then p38. p38 is the plane i love, and enjoy flying the most, so that's where i stopped trying differen t...till i came to the ava. flying here has been a good thign for me. it forced me to fly less timidly, along with forcing me to try planes i'd have otherwise not flown.....the p-40 and p-39 are two prime examples.
to me(and i think most that are here on a regular basis) the settings, matchups, and constant change is what keeps me coming back to this arena.
As I've repeatedly said, I don't have an issue flying with no-icons (in the limited sense we have now) - I do just fine, tyvm.i know you don't need them, which is part of why i don't understand your desire to keep going at this.
I do take exception to the way the "defense" of this setting is being presented.
You, and others, acknowledge that flying without icons vs an opponent with them is an "advantage." So it's not totally about "immersion" now is it? Stop using that as a rationale if you're going with half-measures that provide the very advantages that you consider unfair to begin with. i've never thought it was total immersion. i've thought it more fun, and a bit more challenging, along with sometimes feeling more immersed, such as in a close in 1-1 fight.
I'm very aware of the concept of concessions (and personal preferences) when it comes to settings and gameplay. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express my opinions, now does it? Just like you all, I'd like to see more and better players in the AvA. Now that the whole storch thing is more distant, you need to consider what really brought up the seeming "rise" of AvA... I dispute that it's the no-icon settings. Where'd all those Finns go?
There will always be a small group of "realism/immersion" poepl - I'm one of them, it's just that *my* immersion are the matchups, not the settings. And I will continue to avow that no-icons in conjunction with friendly-only icons is a crutch.
And believe it or not, I do appreciate the efforts players put into running this arena, as evidenced by the fact I actually play in it on a regular basis.
my reasoning for not being in the arenas has been some ongoing personal problems in rl. with these, should i come in and fly, i would pretty quickly become one of "them" in the arena....."them" being those that constantly stir up crap on the open channels....and i refuse to allow myself to do that to this arena.
also.......what do you think of the set up starting today?
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.squelch shane
all is solved :aok
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my reasoning for not being in the arenas has been some ongoing personal problems in rl. with these, should i come in and fly, i would pretty quickly become one of "them" in the arena....."them" being those that constantly stir up crap on the open channels....and i refuse to allow myself to do that to this arena.
also.......what do you think of the set up starting today?
As I've repeatedly said, I don't have an issue flying with no-icons (in the limited sense we have now) - I do just fine, tyvm.
i know you don't need them, which is part of why i don't understand your desire to keep going at this.
You, and others, acknowledge that flying without icons vs an opponent with them is an "advantage." So it's not totally about "immersion" now is it? Stop using that as a rationale if you're going with half-measures that provide the very advantages that you consider unfair to begin with.
i've never thought it was total immersion. i've thought it more fun, and a bit more challenging, along with sometimes feeling more immersed, such as in a close in 1-1 fight.
the set up looks interesting, especially with the addition of wind. is puffy disabled along the English Coast?
for your other points:
1. *I* don't need icons, correct - others might, but since they don't stick around or express their opinions, we'll never know the true effect of this inflexibility. Again, take a look at Lusche's 2010 stats, in particular about the AvA. Draw a straight line from beginning "players" (Jan.) across the graph to the end (Dec). What do you see? Let me do it for you.
(http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/swatpeace/avaactivity2010a.jpg)
2. Again, you're talking about your challenge and immersion. Apparenly only a handful of players share the sentiment. And again, still... nothing stops you from turning off your icons for your own challenge and semi-immersion. Can you admit that "no-icons" does stop players from trying out or continuing to fly the AvA? Would you quit the AvA if icons were brought back? I'll be here either way.
3. Just because you can't separate real-life frustrations from in-game behavior, doesn't mean that applies to everyone who utilizes ch200 in a way you don't particularly appreciate.
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WHAT? where in the world did you come up with that nonesense. none of us has said any such thing. that's a nasty bit of selective comprehension.
so i'm guessing by your response to my invitiation to put up or shut up, you're choosing to just continue ankle humping others and parrot what they say. i'm really surprised since you claim to be of superior intellect and skill, i would have thought you could come up with a better solution than the 10 people who are making an honest attempt to provide a more immersive experience to players. as for me being a noob, i've seen your gamey acm and if that's the best you have, i would much rather be considered a noob. at least when my toon goes down, it does so after an honest effort.
Reading is phundamental...
from Cap: because now, you know what you're merging with at 6k yards, whereas we need to get closer....giving you the advantage.
from NRaven's pm to me: Are you kidding me? with all that intelect you cant see how foolish that would be I have my icons off and you keep yours on and see me from 6k out but I cant see you yet. its a bad request.
so, what's your opinion on myself having icons enabled, while you turn yours off? 'fess up now and go on the record as saying it gives me an unfair advantage. the concept applies directly the same to friendly-only icons.
and just because I like clubbing seals... care to expland on your "gamey" acm comment? or was this another slight directed at HT's coding? :noid
do you realize the irony of using a term I coined in AH? anklehumpers. :aok
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the puffy should be disabled at all coastal cities. i wanted it left on however for any inland cities/factories, for the bomber guys.
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Gyrene... So only 10 folks want no-icons?
Just 10 folks? As compared to all the dozens that have come in here and been shouted down and driven off as they comment about the no icons? It's a recurring theme, no doubt you've noticed. Some say the atmosphere has become Stalinist in the AvA. Those that dissent are shot! All you need do is mention the icons and the insults fly. The questioning of manhood begins. The inuendo and insinuation that you can't "cut it" or "hack it" or that you lack skill because you can't fly that way. It's been stipulated in the past that it's an arbitrary difficulty, not based in reality. It's challenging, but not realistic, that sort of thing. And yet even with that stipulation all the defenders of no-icons seem to revert back to the same language when the discussion comes up. Some keep it civil, some do not, but the general arguments are the same.
Given that stipulation, would you be making such comments about lack of skill and poor piloting and weakness of fortitude if, for example, the "challenge" was arbitrarly set to be "must fight the entire time with oil on your windshield"? Or what if the CMs had a toggle to set "tunnel vision" (like riding a blackout) and the entire fight took place that way? What if CMs could disable the ZOOM key?
While it IS a specific set of skills, they are ultimately useless outside of the narrowly defined setup you are using them in. The only way you become better in a situation like this is you learn to game the system. You play with the rules rather than the other players.
No icons is more of a crutch IMO. Most folks using no-icons defend it as a realism/immersion thing, but in the end it's an excuse to pick targets, to look for an easier kill. Hoping THEY don't see YOU rather than the other way around. The goal is always to catch somebody sleeping, while they're not spotting you.
Same thing as those requesting night-time arenas and night fighters.
Realism/immersion would be gathering 4 friends, sitting in the tower, taking off with no icons (not even friendly) and with FF enabled. You fly out as a wing, you engage as a wing, and you regroup and return to base as a wing.
Nobody could deny that description is far better for immersion, for fun, for overall entertainment. The reason it's not done is because this is a game and people want to get into the action quickly. To get to that action quickly we have many things like vox, like radio comms, like radar, like icons.
Unless you want to disable all of these things, including the clipboard map, including many other things built into the game, saying you turn icons off "for immersion" is not true.
It's to help you get kills without the guy you're killing being able to avoid it.
There, I've said it. Controversial, maybe, but there you have it. This isn't anything new (these ideas have been brought up before and yelled down and driven out of this forum before)
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Just a small town girl...
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living in a lonely world
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She took the midnight train going annnnyyywhhherrree
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Just a city boy
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Born and raised in south detroit
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he took the midnight train going aaaaannnyyyyyywheeeeerrrrre
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A singer in a smokey rooom
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The smell of wine and CHEAP perfume
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i got 1 question for you guys.
do you move into a race track, knowing there's loud cars there pretty much every night, and expect the track to change to suit you?
or move in near an airport, knowing there's airplanes taking off, and expect pilots to not fly, because it bothers ya?(some just tried this at kvay....they were told to go pound sand)
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(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/ChannelDash2.jpg)
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Reading is phundamental...
from Cap: because now, you know what you're merging with at 6k yards, whereas we need to get closer....giving you the advantage.
from NRaven's pm to me: Are you kidding me? with all that intelect you cant see how foolish that would be I have my icons off and you keep yours on and see me from 6k out but I cant see you yet. its a bad request.
so, what's your opinion on myself having icons enabled, while you turn yours off? 'fess up now and go on the record as saying it gives me an unfair advantage. the concept applies directly the same to friendly-only icons.
and just because I like clubbing seals... care to expland on your "gamey" acm comment? or was this another slight directed at HT's coding? :noid
do you realize the irony of using a term I coined in AH? anklehumpers. :aok
you really do like to talk in nonsensical circles...twice now i've offered you the opportunity to present an alternative that fits between the main arena arcade and the no enemy icons, yet you insist on continuing with the rhetoric...you're probably going to avoid reading this response in its entirety and post another juvenile reply but i'll take the time to spell it out for you anyway.
you're icon question isn't valid...we have 1 icon setting turned off and the other is short range...if we reversed the icon settings to friendly off and enemy at 2.5, the only complaints would be about how difficult it is to give verbal check sixes without a means of identifying the friendly pilots...no one would be as focused on the "mark 1 eyeball" as much as they are now...the current friendly icon setting is a concession made with feed back from other players and much heated discussion...the intent is to allow for idenification and communication among players on the same side at a range shorter than that found in the main arenas...until a better alternative is provided, that is what we have to work with.
again, if you have a better idea that doesn't involve using main arena standards...post it.
as for your gamey acm...full flaps, below stall speed on the deck, wheels down touch and go on the side of a hill in a p-47 against a zeke, to name just one instance that sits at the front of memory pool...most of the time i just chalk the arcade maneuvers up to the "whatever" realm but, that was the lamest thing i've seen...even a noob like me wouldn't go that far to keep from getting shot down.
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(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/catwoman.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/bettie_01g.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/bettiepage21.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/dominatrix.jpg)
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i like the last one cap... :O isn't that jolie? num nums
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i like the last one cap... :O isn't that jolie? num nums
uh huh. :devil
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you really do like to talk in nonsensical circles...twice now i've offered you the opportunity to present an alternative that fits between the main arena arcade and the no enemy icons,
you're icon question isn't valid...
...until a better alternative is provided, that is what we have to work with.
again, if you have a better idea that doesn't involve using main arena standards...post it.
as for your gamey acm...full flaps, below stall speed on the deck, wheels down touch and go on the side of a hill in a p-47 against a zeke, to name just one instance that sits at the front of memory pool...most of the time i just chalk the arcade maneuvers up to the "whatever" realm but, that was the lamest thing i've seen...even a noob like me wouldn't go that far to keep from getting shot down.
1. you're not in a position to either make an offer to me or qualify it.
2. my question was very valid - you simply know you can't answer it any way that wouldn't substantiate my assertions.
3. again it's not up to you to put qualifications on what opinions I might offer.
4. oh, the touch and go on the hill (not sure i even actually touched down, but I can assure you it's possible in real life under the right circumstances) and it was an idea that occurred to me in the situation, not like I do that kind of thing all the time nor could it be considered "acm." Just *one* instance.. that you can recall... I see... nice try tho'. might I suggest you enroll in your local jr. college and take logic and/or debating?
anyhoo... I see no reason to continue this discussion with you, so i'll just wipe you off my heel (not big enough to reach my ankle) and move on.
:aok
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(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM8896.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/toenail.jpg)
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i got 1 question for you guys.
do you move into a race track, knowing there's loud cars there pretty much every night, and expect the track to change to suit you?
or move in near an airport, knowing there's airplanes taking off, and expect pilots to not fly, because it bothers ya?(some just tried this at kvay....they were told to go pound sand)
well if you want to play it that way, the CT (AvA) and even AvA was never originally operated that way. The silly rednecks came in and took over and put their track there and HT allowed it because it was far enough away from his more lucrative customers. Sort of like a ghetto, ya know? And to think, you guys want to see some developments that draw in more people who will raise the standards - whatever they might be... Who in their right mind would build a new house right next to an airport or racetrack? People who don't know any better because that's all they know, bless their hearts - or those too poor to live in the nicer areas. Me? I just like slumming. :aok
nice to see you gomers trying to drown out differing opinions with stupid posts and pictures (well, except the hot chick ones.) You're lucky i'm not penguin. :noid
But I like pictures, too... have you seen this one, yet?
(http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/swatpeace/avaactivity2010a.jpg)
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well if you want to play it that way, the CT (AvA) and even AvA was never originally operated that way. The silly rednecks came in and took over and put their track there and HT allowed it because it was far enough away from his more lucrative customers. Sort of like a ghetto, ya know? And to think, you guys want to see some developments that draw in more people who will raise the standards - whatever they might be... Who in their right mind would build a new house right next to an airport or racetrack? People who don't know any better because that's all they know, bless their hearts - or those too poor to live in the nicer areas. Me? I just like slumming. :aok
nice to see you gomers trying to drown out differing opinions with stupid posts and pictures (well, except the hot chick ones.) You're lucky i'm not penguin. :noid
the airport reference i made.....i'll have to take a couple pics of the development i was referencing. to give you an idea though......
launch runway 26. at 500ft agl, make right turn, heading for pattern. at this point, you're doing 65kts, 500ft agl, turning, so you tend to almost "linger" over this spot as you turn.
there was a development going up right under there. 10 houses. i kept mentioning them to people i was flying with, saying they'd complain, although there was absolutley no way they could NOT know there was planes passing overhead, as 26 is our calm wind runway, and there's always flights going in and out fo the airport.
they did complain, but the state owns the airport.....so their complaints kinda fell on deaf ears.
the race track scenario i mentioned....that was atco raceway about 20 years ago. same thing. people KNEW there was a track, with racing going on at least 3 nights a week, if not more.
on the busier bracket nights, it often went to midnight or later. people complained after moving in near a dragstrip.....and in this instance they won.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM8975.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM8974.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM8973.jpg)
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alrighty then, continuing with the airport/dragstrip theme... the AvA is the house built next to them, cuz you guys sure complain when the MA "spills over" into the AVA.
If anything, you're trying to pass off the AvA as a gated community - and it's full of glass houses. :neener:
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1. you're not in a position to either make an offer to me or qualify it.
2. my question was very valid - you simply know you can't answer it any way that wouldn't substantiate my assertions.
3. again it's not up to you to put qualifications on what opinions I might offer.
4. oh, the touch and go on the hill (not sure i even actually touched down, but I can assure you it's possible in real life under the right circumstances) and it was an idea that occurred to me in the situation, not like I do that kind of thing all the time nor could it be considered "acm." Just *one* instance.. that you can recall... I see... nice try tho'. might I suggest you enroll in your local jr. college and take logic and/or debating?
anyhoo... I see no reason to continue this discussion with you, so i'll just wipe you off my heel (not big enough to reach my ankle) and move on.
:aok
bad news twinkie...i'm in a better position to make the offer and qualify it than you are to act like you know what you're talking about.
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actually, i was trying to talk to you about the rl stuff on that last post.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM8981.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM8977.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/HPIM8976.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/m5lp_0711_06_zsuper_stang_fest_2007.jpg)
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bad news twinkie...i'm in a better position to make the offer and qualify it than you are to act like you know what you're talking about.
reeeeee-leeeeeeee? is it because you own kneepads? :eek:
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actually, i was trying to talk to you about the rl stuff on that last post.
well, look at what you said... in both incidences there were complaints, in one - ignored, in the second, listened to and adjustments made.
did i understand it incorrectly? bear in mind *you* don't own the AvA, HTC does... the staff is just the landlord until new ones are chosen, the rest of us merely tenents who can vote with our feet or wallet.
and again, bear in mind the AvA has been around a lot longer than the no-icon setting and nothing is set in stone, right? right?
any comment on the graph?
how about answering the other question I posed - Would you quit the AvA if icons were brought back?
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these pulled into my shop last year. they all had oe engines in em. friggin sounded like chitty chitty bang bang....... :D
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01609.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01614.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01615.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01612.jpg)
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that last one had a special icon. actually all of them probably did. :neener:
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the one in the bottom pic.....i had asked him if it still only had the hand crank starter, because i noticed the hole for it.
i think his response was something like "are you #$@% crazy?!"
then he said it was still there, but he had added an electric starter too.
one of my customers bought this for his wife.....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01588.jpg)
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the one in the bottom pic.....i had asked him if it still only had the hand crank starter, because i noticed the hole for it.
i think his response was something like "are you #$@% crazy?!"
then he said it was still there, but he had added an electric starter too.
one of my customers bought this for his wife.....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01588.jpg)
Wow - she's a beaut. 73?
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Wow - she's a beaut. 73?
I'm going with 72.
- oldman
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Wow - she's a beaut. 73?
i think she's a 70. and she's just as nice inside, as outside. he's since added the old style cragers for her. i think it's supposed to eb coming in soon for spring time service...i'll get an updated pic.....