Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: dirtdart on May 25, 2011, 02:13:15 PM
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To keep in line with the GV gunsight modelling.
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It does make sense but I always use zoom when I'm on someone's 6. Without zoom those targets are very small. Miss zoom mode in GV gun sights. But you're right, zoom mode is unrealistic.
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Zoom in tanks is fixed for a reason.
It is NOT the same reason as in planes.
In planes we have a very wide FOV to simulate peripheral vision. Because of this, we cannot make out details on anything. Max zoom is supposed to give us the details we would see in normal vision at any given time, only we'd see that without losing peripheral vision as well.
Tanks don't have peripheral vision in their scopes. The max zoom capability was making a mockery of historic capabilities. 7k shots with great reliability, shooting well outside of historically reported distances, etc... None of that was realistic.
Your post is a GV-oriented whine disguised as a request.
EDIT: You want zoom? Pay the perks. Rides that historically had zoom modes have them in AH now.
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Well Krusty, yes it is a GV whine, not thinly veiled I might add. The point is imagine no zoom playing on min sys requirements. Would be tough at best. The point is, if you argue the change in zoom for tanks for the sake of realism etc... then...
1. disallow zoom in planes for realism sake, you want wider FOV, buy track IR.
2. disallow custom sights, only use the sights the plane flew with orginally.
My entire point is, the old sight model, although "unrealistic" was useable. The excuse I keep hearing about "realism" is poor. In my mind, consistency throughout the game ... or not. In planes we have a very wide FOV to simulate peripheral vision. Because of this, we cannot make out details on anything. Max zoom is supposed to give us the details we would see in normal vision at any given time, only we'd see that without losing peripheral vision as well.
:rofl
Ok so if that is the intent, then limit the zoom to 2x. Right now I can zoom the same as I could in a tank, in a plane. There is no reason for that. Fighter pilots were probably less likely to roll binos than a TC.
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hmmmm...would that include getting rid of zoom in the commanders view, aircraft and ship/shore gunners, bomb sights, etc...etc...etc..., or just limiting it to a more realistic level?
supply everyone with a good reliable head tracking program and getting rid of it would not bother me...
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I don't USE zoom, because I PLAY the game, not GAME the game.
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Well Krusty, yes it is a GV whine, not thinly veiled I might add. The point is imagine no zoom playing on min sys requirements. Would be tough at best. The point is, if you argue the change in zoom for tanks for the sake of realism etc... then...
1. disallow zoom in planes for realism sake, you want wider FOV, buy track IR.
2. disallow custom sights, only use the sights the plane flew with orginally.
My entire point is, the old sight model, although "unrealistic" was useable. The excuse I keep hearing about "realism" is poor. In my mind, consistency throughout the game ... or not.
:rofl
Ok so if that is the intent, then limit the zoom to 2x. Right now I can zoom the same as I could in a tank, in a plane. There is no reason for that. Fighter pilots were probably less likely to roll binos than a TC.
Not having zoom would hurt some of us players that do not want to buy track ir, and have little monitors. (I use a laptop)
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Not having zoom would hurt some of us players that do not want to buy track ir
What has zoom to do with TrackIr? :huh
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I don't USE zoom, because I PLAY the game, not GAME the game.
That's GREAT, keep being AWESOME, your PLAQUE is on the way.
Hence why we have zoom, and Icons, it is to give you the functionality you have in real life. But there is absolutly no way to duplicate real eyeballs in real space on a monitor with out adding information in a different manner than you have in real lift. Hence why we have the items like icons,ranges, and zoom to duplicate the fuctionality you have in real life.
HiTech
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hmmmm...would that include getting rid of zoom in the commanders view, aircraft and ship/shore gunners, bomb sights, etc...etc...etc..., or just limiting it to a more realistic level?
I'd say a more realistic level. Not getting rid of zoom, but adjusting the relative levels. As of now, the standard magnifying tank gunner sight (Panzer, M4, T34 etc.) has about the same magnification as any pilot in game has with his bare eyes.
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What has zoom to do with TrackIr? :huh
Luche ya gotta read the post I quoted :lol
I was responding to a post that essentially told me to buy something I dont want because it conflicts with their wishes :uhoh
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I don't USE zoom, because I PLAY the game, not GAME the game.
Using a function deliberaty included in the game for this specific purpose is now "gaming the game"?
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I need the zoom, I cant tell how a plane is oriented very well unless I'm on top of it without zooming in a bit. I do not see a reason to allow as much magnifaction as it does, but it doesnt bother me that its there.
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hmmmm...would that include getting rid of zoom in the commanders view, aircraft and ship/shore gunners, bomb sights, etc...etc...etc..., or just limiting it to a more realistic level?
supply everyone with a good reliable head tracking program and getting rid of it would not bother me...
Then for zoom in it you use a commander binoculars?
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I need the zoom, I cant tell how a plane is oriented very well unless I'm on top of it without zooming in a bit. I do not see a reason to allow as much magnifaction as it does, but it doesnt bother me that its there.
Me too.
My entire point is that some defend change for the sake of "realism" but are unwilling to embrace it in other aspects of the game. Personally I do not like losing the old sight system and now I just don't GV much. Then I read all of the warm remarks of realism...encourage perk rides etc... let it ride for a bit. I have seen guys in here argue over whether or not a plane had 250 or 260 rds of ammo for realism sake, so to what extent are we willing to accept or sacrafice "realism", and at what point does it detract from the quality of gameplay?
It will be interesting to see in a few months, when there is enough data, 1. Whether or not the new system is encouraging play vice discouraging. 2. Encouraging spawn camping vice open field fighting.
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Then for zoom in it you use a commander binoculars?
lol... :neener: ...if you want to seriously limit your field of view at 500 yards from what it currently is, you go right ahead and grab those ww2 era binoculars.
personally limiting the zoom to a more realistic level without the extreme magnification wouldn't bother me...
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/ahss0.bmp)
there is no way i'm going to lean forward enough to stick my eyeball on the gunsight of an airplane...
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/ahss2.bmp)
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In real life the Revi3/C12/16 graticule ring was 50mm when projected onto the reflector plate. Zoom in until the ring is 50mm in diameter using a ruler against your LCD. Now your cartoon pilot's eye view is aproximently 17.5 inches away from the graticule if you were sitting in the cockpit. Oh, and those openings around your Revi C/12 C graticule center are a 2m diameter at 100m. And the opening in the verticle line is a B17 rudder at 600m. Or supposed to be.
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lol... :neener: ...if you want to seriously limit your field of view at 500 yards from what it currently is, you go right ahead and grab those ww2 era binoculars.
personally limiting the zoom to a more realistic level without the extreme magnification wouldn't bother me...
I meant for the naval guns and tanks. Was the guy in your gunsights a guy named iron61 and piloted a P-51B? Just asking... :uhoh Anyway, I agree to limiting the view of the zoom. The zoom is extremely crazy. In fact, I never really zoom in because of their extreme zoom. (Besides in the naval guns.)
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-1, you cant represent the human eye view in one 2d screen, if the game is here to be realistic you gotta have the zoom and the icons to make up for the limitations a small 2d screen has relative to the human eye. now on tanks it is realistic because the sighs in those tanks didnt have zoom on the scope and when you are in the comanders position or driver, you are in the same limitation as in the airplane so you have zoom there also.
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I don't USE zoom, because I PLAY the game, not GAME the game.
fug... the zoom is to allow a realistic 1:1 ratio of sight. aka what we would see in real life...
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-1, you cant represent the human eye view in one 2d screen, if the game is here to be realistic you gotta have the zoom and the icons to make up for the limitations a small 2d screen has relative to the human eye. now on tanks it is realistic because the sighs in those tanks didnt have zoom on the scope and when you are in the comanders position or driver, you are in the same limitation as in the airplane so you have zoom there also.
The gunsights had "zoom", i.e. magnification: The Panzer IV for example was using the TZF % with a 2.5x magnification - yet it has the same level of magnification in AH as any pilot, which is supposed to represent 1:1. :headscratch:
From another thread:
From a P-38 cockpit
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3752/from38.jpg)
From tank commander's position
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9195/fromcommanderpanther.jpg)
from Panzer IV gunsight
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9022/fromgunnerpanzer.jpg)
All views at max zoom, and at same distance
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I meant for the naval guns and tanks. Was the guy in your gunsights a guy named iron61 and piloted a P-51B?
no iron, those screenies were done offline...the first shot is 2 clicks less than default zoom 190a8 at ~800 yards...second shot is max zoom p-47 at ~400 yds.
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-1
in an aircraft, its completely impossible to aim if i use too much zoom (at leas for me). In the 109 i always can see the MG's ammo counter.
But if i dont use zoom, its also real hard to aim couse this 22inch monitor is representing your eyes full, about 140 degrees wide sight of view, extremely limiting the details you are still able to see.
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When you play in the AvA, there are no enemy icons. It makes the play challenging, and you must have your head on a swivel to stay alive. That degree of difficulty is approriate for that group. You choose to play with those settings in that arena. The MA is different. It has to have a degree of "training wheels" to promote new users and folks with lessers systems. Some of these settings are abused by more experienced players to gain an advantage over others, such as dialing down graphics in GV mode to see more.
I am struggling to accept this notion of realism, which is why this post is in the "Wishlist" forum. My wish is for the community to poop or get off the pot as it were with what you find acceptable. We have long term players lauding the GV site modeling, because it is "real", but at the same time I can build a gunsight for an airplane which allows me to aim munitions with a higher degree of accuracy. I can zoom in the gunner position of a B17 and nail 1000 yd head shots....because that is ok.
Why do we laud realism and at the same time laud unrealistic things? Where do you draw the line?
Please discuss.
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Dirtdart, don't start that self-massaging crap about icons being easy mode crutches and real men fly without icons.
That's BS and you've been shown this by many many experts and real life pilots. Your ignorance and blind devotion to the idea you're so good and awesome because you like to fly without icons is nothing other than an ego boosting exercise.
You would do well to search for the many long and thoroughly argued discussions on this forum alone, and read up on the issue. Hopefully you will lose some of your egotistic opinions on the matter.'
EDIT: Turns out it's not a new GV whine, it's the same old BS "remove icons!" whine/wish in disguise.
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In real life the Revi3/C12/16 graticule ring was 50mm when projected onto the reflector plate. Zoom in until the ring is 50mm in diameter using a ruler against your LCD. Now your cartoon pilot's eye view is aproximently 17.5 inches away from the graticule if you were sitting in the cockpit. Oh, and those openings around your Revi C/12 C graticule center are a 2m diameter at 100m. And the opening in the verticle line is a B17 rudder at 600m. Or supposed to be.
uh buster...that's cool info, might help me shoot better with the information but...wouldn't zooming to that 50mm size on a 22 inch monitor would be more zoom than it would be on a 42 inch monitor?
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Dirtdart, don't start that self-massaging crap about icons being easy mode crutches and real men fly without icons.
That's BS and you've been shown this by many many experts and real life pilots. Your ignorance and blind devotion to the idea you're so good and awesome because you like to fly without icons is nothing other than an ego boosting exercise.
You would do well to search for the many long and thoroughly argued discussions on this forum alone, and read up on the issue. Hopefully you will lose some of your egotistic opinions on the matter.'
EDIT: Turns out it's not a new GV whine, it's the same old BS "remove icons!" whine/wish in disguise.
Krusty..before you jump in guns blazing, re-read the post. I think I have spent 3 hours total in the AvA since I stated flying years ago. Mostly had to do with my system was weak and not seeing things is what prevented me from enjoying the flying. "When you play in the AvA...you have to have your head on a swivel". Yep, thats some self absorbed stuff there....jackwagon.
Your personal attack and character assasination attempt just reinforces my long held belief that the more you "active" guys post, the less credible you become. Lets take your overloaded P-47 argument. You get uppity because it did not, (edit: also your the P-51 did not carry rockets and bombs at the same time) HTC responds, true, but it could so why not. You want to defend realism on ammo count, but not a 30 power eye ball in an airplane. Who is the self absorbed hypocrite here?
Remove icons....pfft. Were it not for icons I would spend the day in the tower.
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I am struggling to accept this notion of realism, which is why this post is in the "Wishlist" forum. My wish is for the community to poop or get off the pot as it were with what you find acceptable.
Ask 20 people about 'what they find acceptable' you'll get 25 different answers if you ask twice.
We have long term players lauding the GV site modeling, because it is "real", but at the same time I can build a gunsight for an airplane which allows me to aim munitions with a higher degree of accuracy. I can zoom in the gunner position of a B17 and nail 1000 yd head shots....because that is ok.
Why do we laud realism and at the same time laud unrealistic things? Where do you draw the line?
Please discuss.
What's that tremendously unrealistic about the zoom on the monitor, if you look at it in terms of a 'typical' setup?
Take, for example, a 21" flatscreen sitting a 2 1/2 feet from your eyes. At maximum zoom in the aircraft that's pretty close to a life size view of the gunsight if you were to put your head in a bag that had a monitor-sized and shaped hole at one end of it a couple feet away. It's maybe not precise, but it's not like putting a bloody sniper scope on your plane. It's maybe out by 10-20% depending on how far from your eyes your monitor is.
Now sure, if you put a 42" screen the same distance from you, now it's out of whack at maximum zoom. You can't optimize the views for the guy with the 42" screen 2 feet from his head.
It's set up to be somewhat reasonable, with the 'gamey' benefit of the ability to zoom out so you have some peripheral vision because it would be nearly impossible to play if your monitor view was at 1:1 like you were looking through a monitor-sized window at the world.
As to the 2.5x zoom on the tank sight, that seems a bit off to me if one accepts that max zoom in a plane is quasi-1x. Seems to me it should be 2.5x the zoom-in on the aircraft zoom. In other words, I agree with the Snail.
Wiley.
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Yup Wiley, snail makes a great point. It would be very interesting to see if the airplane guys would be as receptive to it as the GVrs have had to be.
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uh buster...that's cool info, might help me shoot better with the information but...wouldn't zooming to that 50mm size on a 22 inch monitor would be more zoom than it would be on a 42 inch monitor?
Reflector glass on all versions is about 2x the ring diameter. Move your FOV in until you have that. Create a new Revi in 512x512 mode with a 100mil ring. Mount that in your 109's and 190's. Then move your default FOV forward to make the ring about 1/2 the width of the glass. That will give you a 50mm ring on glass that is about 90-110mm wide. Then zoom is not as much of a factor unless you want to use the stadia marks for degrees of deflection.
I find zooming at the last moment to make the ring about 50mm on my screen makes using the ring and stadia marks work like the manual says they will work. Otherwise at default FOV you are pecking away at something your cross hairs and ring covers up unless you use a dot only.
Wonder if a 42inch LCD gives you more of a 1:1 in your default FOV looking through the gunsight?? Try opening your Revi gunsight in your art program and zooming in on it until the ring meaures 50mm with a hand held ruler up to the LCD panel. Then move your face until it's 17.5 inches from the LCD panel. Now you have the same FOV german pilots did in their cockpits of their Revi gunsight. The british distance was 16.5 inches and the ring was 60mm.
How Is Your Periferal Vision Now??
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GVs don't have to make split second observations on wing orientation, descent, ascent, rolling, diving, etc. These things could and would be available with the naked eye in real life but in AH would require zoom to make out more than a pixellated blob.
When talking 2D planes, the GV zoom is much more realistic than we had before.
When talking 3D dogfighting, you can't pretend removing the details afforded by zoom is realistic. There is far too much info available in the real world that cannot be supplied by the AH view system.
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Reflector glass on all versions is about 2x the ring diameter. Move your FOV in until you have that. Create a new Revi in 512x512 mode with a 100mil ring. Mount that in your 109's and 190's. Then move your default FOV forward to make the ring about 1/2 the width of the glass. That will give you a 50mm ring on glass that is about 90-110mm wide. Then zoom is not as much of a factor unless you want to use the stadia marks for degrees of deflection.
I find zooming at the last moment to make the ring about 50mm on my screen makes using the ring and stadia marks work like the manual says they will work. Otherwise at default FOV you are pecking away at something your cross hairs and ring covers up unless you use a dot only.
Wonder if a 42inch LCD gives you more of a 1:1 in your default FOV looking through the gunsight?? Try opening your Revi gunsight in your art program and zooming in on it until the ring meaures 50mm with a hand held ruler up to the LCD panel. Then move your face until it's 17.5 inches from the LCD panel. Now you have the same FOV german pilots did in their cockpits of their Revi gunsight. The british distance was 16.5 inches and the ring was 60mm.
How Is Your Periferal Vision Now??
using your equation...zooming in on a 22 inch monitor to get the dimensions you state for just the glass at a distance of 17.5 inches...i can see 24 inches to each side of the monitor without moving my eyes...i agree default fov isn't good...but the magnification and loss of fov isn't right either, especially at full zoom...and monitor size is going to make a difference in where you start out...target detail isn't going to get any better for sure.
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The gunsights had "zoom", i.e. magnification: The Panzer IV for example was using the TZF % with a 2.5x magnification - yet it has the same level of magnification in AH as any pilot, which is supposed to represent 1:1. :headscratch:
From another thread:
From a P-38 cockpit
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3752/from38.jpg)
From tank commander's position
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9195/fromcommanderpanther.jpg)
from Panzer IV gunsight
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9022/fromgunnerpanzer.jpg)
All views at max zoom, and at same distance
Loocshy Looschy Looschy... c'mon gent, get it right. ;) The Panzer IV H used the TZF 5f/1 tank sight, that has only a 2.4X zoom which is LESS than the zoom capability of the TC or aircraft pilot (2.5X?). Bounce back and forth between the TC's maxed zoomed view and the Panzer IV's tank sight, you will see the difference in zoom capability. :)
FWIW, I'd like think we could at least TRY having a go without the aircraft pilot zoom. It would lend towards more of a simulator vs arcade game. Or, perhaps HTC would consider reducing the zoom by half, maybe to 1.75X or maybe up to only 2X??? I'm not seeing why there is so much drum pounding AGAINST it. I understand all the 3D vs 2D arguments, but there are lots of other balance mechanisms in the game. Try it for a month in the AvA server??? Or perhaps just for a couple of days in the MA's??? What harm could come from it????
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What harm could come from it????
rivers of tears.
just like this thread, because unless htc limits everyone to the same resolution, some people will have better "vision" than others. My 24" at 1920x1080 a foot in front of my face is way better than someones 60" at 1024x768 at any distance. etc.
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To keep in line with the GV gunsight modelling.
:aok I like the idea. I've watched alot of WWII gun cams and all the shots the pilots take are relatively short distances (on average 50 yards to - 300 yards, because they don't have bionic cyber vision like we have in AH). The GV changes have been fantastic for gameplay, bringing the fight closer in and a much more tactical feeling, (spawn camping excluded).
If the removal of the zoom function in aircraft caused us fight much more closely together I wouldn't complain one bit. I'm not saying I wouldn't miss it but anything that makes AH feel realistic is a plus.
As for the later TrackIR for FOV/looking around, we can move the camera of any view anywhere in the c-pit well out of reach of the real view of the pilot. The pilot being strapped in can only move his neck and head so far.
I'd like in addition to the zoom removed; The realistic head positions for our views,(The camera swing just in the same way as you looking over your shoulder, non instant, slightly tilted) and the introduction of the realistic mirrors the aircraft had. I think it would make the experience even more exiting and give one 'ell of an andrenaline rush.
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Dolby, I do know that HTC is pretty adverse to the idea of mirrors, so I don't think we would ever get them. They should would make the Hellcat a bit more interesting to fly...lol.
One thing to consider though, is the what the "average" player uses as a system. I was a bit upset with the big update two years ago because I had to go out and buy a new system to play, at the setting I wanted to play on. When ditching these high zoom functions, I wonder how many people could no longer see to the extent those with higher end systems could. I was a bit shocked not to long ago when HT mentioned that so many folks play with mouse or keyboard.
Krusty, frankly I have never used zoom looking around in a plane in a fight to make "split second decisions", unless it is to look at a couple of guys fighting, spot M3s, or to confirm town was down. To look around the fight in zoom, is disorienting. The only thing zoom does is allow you to fire shots at a greater range than some could naturally see. Great for shooting down running Mustangs in a Brewster, but not what I would call realistic.
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+1 so pple with small screens don't stand a chance against my 26' anymore :neener:
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rivers of tears.
just like this thread, because unless htc limits everyone to the same resolution, some people will have better "vision" than others. My 24" at 1920x1080 a foot in front of my face is way better than someones 60" at 1024x768 at any distance. etc.
:aok
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Dolby,
It isn't just about the range at which a shot is taken, it is mostly about being able to see the orientation of your opponent so that you can see what he is doing and try to get into range.
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Dolby,
It isn't just about the range at which a shot is taken, it is mostly about being able to see the orientation of your opponent so that you can see what he is doing and try to get into range.
Which is difficult, but that is probably what separated the living from the dead back in the day. The ol' OODA loop.
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GVs don't have to make split second observations on wing orientation, descent, ascent, rolling, diving, etc. These things could and would be available with the naked eye in real life but in AH would require zoom to make out more than a pixellated blob.
To be a successful tanker you need to be able to see the same kind of things: you have to see what armor surface and what angle the enemy tank is showing and you certainly need to see what direction his turret is pointing (both offensively, i.e. the sides of turrets have weaker armor than the front, and defensively, as in he's going to shoot you). And you need to do this quickly: the tanker that makes slow decisions is the dead tanker.
I've measured my screen (24" 1920x1080 at automatic FOV setting) and the tank sight is exactly the right magnification (2.5X in a T34/85) when my eyes are 18" from the screen (which is my normal distance). The commanders zoom setting is also 2.5X. For planes the default non zoomed view is about 0.4X, i.e. wide angle, the default zoomed level (no [ or ]) is about 0.86X, and the maximum zoom is 2.5X. So it comes down to justifying why the limitations of a pixelated screen require 2.5X zoom above reality for pilots but don't require any zoom past 1:1 reality (i.e. the 2.5X the gunsight had in reality) for the tanker.
Personally, I almost never fly planes with max (2.5X) zoom because I'm such a poor shot I need to close to short range. I'm getting used to the new 1:1 tank sight and I can get kills even at range, but it is a tad annoying and I would imagine it's even more annoying for people with smaller and/or lower resolution screens. Also my extreme nearsightedness helps me: I just take off my glasses and put my eyes 6" from the screen for an instant 3X extra magnification (7.5X total). ;)