Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: LThunderpocket on June 15, 2011, 10:29:18 PM
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i just got to thinking on this subject.
I think it would be a great deal more realistic you could say if we had the ability to turn your own icon off.i mean,you can turn enemy icons off but no one else does it so you're just at a disadvantage.
it kind of goes along with tracers...you can turn your tracers off and you nor anyone else can see them.why cant we turn off our icon if we cant see anyone else's icon.
IMO theres no point in having skins other then to look "cool"
if you like flying on the deck you might select a more green or dark skin to somewhat blend in with the ground.but when you have a big P47 1.5k right under you it doesnt really help.especialy when you are trying to sneak under someone and they see half an inch of red markings under you.
it would also help with C47s trying to NOE into a town or land.
we need to impliment this or at least change the icon range to 2k or 1.5k.
just my opinion though,voice yours
EDIT:you would still see friendly icons,but not at 6k.vis range on friendlies would be at maybe 4k.but there would still be a green marker on your clipboard map
EDIT2:keep in mind if you keep your icon you will still see other players with their icons on as well.
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You would still be able to see friendly icons, correct? Otherwise you would have no way to distinguish friend or foe.
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You would still be able to see friendly icons, correct? Otherwise you would have no way to distinguish friend or foe.
yes you would still see friendly icons,but not at 6k.vis range on friendlies would be at maybe 4k.but there would still be a green marker on your clipboard map.im going to edit that in
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-1. in real life you have the whole world at your visual disposal, in AH all you have the screen in front of you. everything is considerably downsized compared to reality. would be a giant pain in the keester IMO
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-1. in real life you have the whole world at your visual disposal, in AH all you have the screen in front of you. everything is considerably downsized compared to reality. would be a giant pain in the keester IMO
yes im aware of that.but seeing someone at 6.0k out and knowing what they're in is one thing,but when you are in an intense dogfight and you lose the guy u can just hit your views and see big red writing that sais "HERE I AM!"IMO if you lose sight of your enemy during a fight it should be harder to find him.it would only be a pain in the keester if you like it easy
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I can see this being abused so easily. You get into a dogfight and either lose your advantage or suffer damage, cut off your icons, then dive to the deck and try to run away and blend in.
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Changing icons could add some challenge and new aspects to the game but there would be a mass exodus of subscribers. If there is one thing this community hates it is changes to the game mechanics.
SA is also one of the aspects of the game that players have to develop to become successful. Even with icons this is difficult and takes weeks or months of playing before it even begins to develope. So a game with an already steep learning curve would become even more difficult for new players to get into.
So the icons are like training wheels; some people will refuse to ride without them and not many new people will be able to get started without them being available.
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I can see this being abused so easily. You get into a dogfight and either lose your advantage or suffer damage, cut off your icons, then dive to the deck and try to run away and blend in.
no because you cant change you incon on and off during flight,just like with tracers
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Changing icons could add some challenge and new aspects to the game but there would be a mass exodus of subscribers. If there is one thing this community hates it is changes to the game mechanics.
SA is also one of the aspects of the game that players have to develop to become successful. Even with icons this is difficult and takes weeks or months of playing before it even begins to develope. So a game with an already steep learning curve would become even more difficult for new players to get into.
So the icons are like training wheels; some people will refuse to ride without them and not many new people will be able to get started without them being available.
i see it as the more advanced pilots in the game would fly with their icon off.dont forget,if you decide you want a fat icon under you,you can still see other players who have their training wheels on as well
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Heya LThunderpocket,
you can go check it out for yourself and see what you think about your enemy not being able to see your icon
the AvsA arena is set up this way all the time...........
if noone is in there, just hang around a few minutes and people will show up.... but best times to go there is 7 PM EDT to 11 PM EDT through out the week
there is no enemy icons and friendly icons are set to under 3K if I remember correctly.....
give it a try....... it is harder than you think...... but it also is fun :aok
hope this helps
TC
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Heya LThunderpocket,
you can go check it out for yourself and see what you think about your enemy not being able to see your icon
the AvsA arena is set up this way all the time...........
if noone is in there, just hang around a few minutes and people will show up.... but best times to go there is 7 PM EDT to 11 PM EDT through out the week
there is no enemy icons and friendly icons are set to under 3K if I remember correctly.....
give it a try....... it is harder than you think...... but it also is fun :aok
hope this helps
TC
whenever i see 1 person in there im in.and no its not harder then i think.its how all arenas should be with the exeption of the TA.thats one of the main reasons i like AvA,no icons and better plane matchups along with an objective other then taking bases
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Thunderpocket, your failing is that you assume it's hard to see a plane and keep it in visual sight. In fact it's probably a million times easier in real life than in here. With our limited view angles (8 directions plus up and down) you have to constantly jockey around instead of just following it instantly and carelessly with your eyeballs. Not only that, but in real life things have much higher contrast and brightness, and you would easily be able to see a con even if it was against the ground and wearing camouflage.
It's because you're close to it and it's moving. Your eyes see moving things a LOT better than stationary ones. Camo might work at long range (that's what it was intended for) but up close you could still see it and track it easily.
That said, the same constraints exist with or without icons. If you have a con go below your nose, under your tail, drop below your wing, etc, you lose sight of it. Same as in real life. However when it's on your screen this game (and most games) has a poor quality compared to the real world.
Don't believe the IL2 minority crowd that proclaims "no icons" as realistic. And don't claim that only "experts" would use it. It's an arbitrary handicap for the sake of making things harder (NOT making them more realistic).
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It's because you're close to it and it's moving. Your eyes see moving things a LOT better than stationary ones. Camo might work at long range (that's what it was intended for) but up close you could still see it and track it easily.
That said, the same constraints exist with or without icons. If you have a con go below your nose, under your tail, drop below your wing, etc, you lose sight of it. Same as in real life. However when it's on your screen this game (and most games) has a poor quality compared to the real world.
Don't believe the IL2 minority crowd that proclaims "no icons" as realistic. And don't claim that only "experts" would use it. It's an arbitrary handicap for the sake of making things harder (NOT making them more realistic).
so with the last paragraph are you stating that the icons make it harder?now,with the IL2 thing.ive never played the game and have no knowledge of how it works.i claim that "experts" would use it because they would probably(seems to me)be able to spot a plane while changing views.Then again though,anyone who does not want their icon seen can turn it off witch comes with the advantage that no one else can see yours.
I realize it IS a computer game and the whole graphics situation.but even if you can easily spot a plane,you still wont know what plane and the distance.plus the big red picket sign with an arrow pointing to your airplane is gone,witch would add to being harder to spot.
As you stated the camo might work at long range,thats because further then 6k you dont even see the airplane,you might see a square or a dot.but the camo wouldnt even matter then because hes all that further away.anything within 6k you mine as well have white paint and flying with a black background
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I often cannot tell if the plane is comming towards me or going away... with icons.
AvA----> No icons. Try it. Cammo does work.
wrongway
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to think ICONS do not make it easier to track an nme plane, is absurd...I understand all the aspects about the monitor not being able to replicate what your eyes can, does not change the fact that NO nme ever had a giant neon sign over their head, which makes it 100% easier to track an nme, in a game about fighting, if there were no icons the fights would be far less and mostly sneaks,.......like it was in the real war...good thing this is just a game and we got those icons to help us spot the bad guys :aok
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to think ICONS do not make it easier to track an nme plane, is absurd...I understand all the aspects about the monitor not being able to replicate what your eyes can, does not change the fact that NO nme ever had a giant neon sign over their head, which makes it 100% easier to track an nme, in a game about fighting, if there were no icons the fights would be far less and mostly sneaks,.......like it was in the real war...good thing this is just a game and we got those icons to help us spot the bad guys :aok
It would be a lot harder to maintain SA in the game than it is in reality without icons. With icons it is easier at further distances and likely similar or a bit harder for things up close.
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This icon deal has been hashed and re-hashed many times.
Still think that at a far away distance that the icons should be very small,
then get bigger (whatever your font size is) as it gets close.
Coogan
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-1. The icons are a visual help within the game that are appreciated. You can turn yours off if you would like, but others may not and most likely will not do the same. Try the AVA and come back to this wish.
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whenever i see 1 person in there im in.and no its not harder then i think.its how all arenas should be with the exeption of the TA.thats one of the main reasons i like AvA,no icons and better plane matchups along with an objective other then taking bases
i've checked your stats in the ava...i had more flight time in the ava last month than you have since march...with just over 1 hour of time in the ava since march, mostly in bombers and vehicles, now you want to have an option that will give you an unfair advantage in the main arenas. :rolleyes:
i see it as the more advanced pilots in the game would fly with their icon off.dont forget,if you decide you want a fat icon under you,you can still see other players who have their training wheels on as well
pure and simple that is asking for an unfair advantage...you can still see an icon at 6000 yards but people looking at you are only seeing a dot.
not going to happen in the main arenas thunderhead, most especially the way you're talking about doing it...and i enjoy the no enemy icons...aside from the fact that there are many people playing on 15-17 inch laptop screens, ah does not properly render the shapes and colors at distances where the human eye can actually make them out.
put some more actual flight time in the ava to truly understand the challenges.
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Here's the real problem...
AvA - no enemy icons, short friendly icons; everyone knows this going in, so everyone doesn't expect to see red neon signs and can be prepared for that.
Mains - 6k enemy and 6k friendly icons is standard; everyone knows this going in, so everyone expects it. YOU decide to not show enemy icons, thus also not showing them yours, but everyone else in the arena is playing standard icons - they are not prepared to look for someone without an icon. You know enemy icons are off (because you chose to turn them off), they do not have icons turned off so aren't looking for a little pixel closing in on them. This wish sounds to me like you want it to be easier to sneak up on someone for easier kills.
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general -1
+ it is easy to abuse.
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does not change the fact that NO nme ever had a giant neon sign over their head, which makes it 100% easier to track an nme
Easier to track than what?
That real life? No
Than "no icons" yes.
Of the two, only one needs considering. Hint: It's not as-compared-to the "no icons" setting.
In real life look at cars driving past you. Do they "blend" into the contrast and saturation of the background behind them? Even if similar colors, you instantly and easily spot them and can watch them out the corner of your eye. With super-wide-angle tracking in Aces High and with 99% of all games I've ever seen, pixels blend into pixels. It's hard to tell depth and it's hard to track objects. If you were in a real life situation you could easily spot a person up a block walking across the street 2 stoplights away. The closer, the easier. In this game? Does not turn out to be so.
So INK, your problem is you're ONLY comparing to "no icons" and pretending that's the end-all be-all of answers. It is not. You need to compare to the real world that this game is SUPPOSED to represent. So no, icons don't float over peoples' heads in real life. But they don't need to. In games, they do.
Get it? The end result is nearly the same. You think icons give some false ability. WRONG. The real ability is available in the real world. You can't replicate those results in the game. With icons you come close. In the end you're probably still more capable of identifying and following and engaging aircraft with your real eyes, against real objects, with real lighting and billions of colors, than you are in a 8-bit texture palatte with icons enabled.
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The day HITC turns off the icons in the MA is the day I will cancel my subscription. I've flown in the AvA arena, I have flown in FSO with reduced range icons... I don't enjoy it at all. It just makes it that much easier for all the super leet BnZ picker types to do their thing.
This is a game, it is supposed to be fun. Discouraging combat in favor of more, "I never even saw him" kills doesn't sound fun to me.
I'm betting that I am in a very large majority on this issue as well.
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No "no icons" arena for me, thanks. I have tried it several times over the years and I do not enjoy it.
And please lose the attitude, with all the "advanced pilots" this, and "training wheels" that.
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Easier to track than what?
That real life? No
Than "no icons" yes.
Of the two, only one needs considering. Hint: It's not as-compared-to the "no icons" setting.
In real life look at cars driving past you. Do they "blend" into the contrast and saturation of the background behind them? Even if similar colors, you instantly and easily spot them and can watch them out the corner of your eye. With super-wide-angle tracking in Aces High and with 99% of all games I've ever seen, pixels blend into pixels. It's hard to tell depth and it's hard to track objects. If you were in a real life situation you could easily spot a person up a block walking across the street 2 stoplights away. The closer, the easier. In this game? Does not turn out to be so.
So INK, your problem is you're ONLY comparing to "no icons" and pretending that's the end-all be-all of answers. It is not. You need to compare to the real world that this game is SUPPOSED to represent. So no, icons don't float over peoples' heads in real life. But they don't need to. In games, they do.
Get it? The end result is nearly the same. You think icons give some false ability. WRONG. The real ability is available in the real world. You can't replicate those results in the game. With icons you come close. In the end you're probably still more capable of identifying and following and engaging aircraft with your real eyes, against real objects, with real lighting and billions of colors, than you are in a 8-bit texture palatte with icons enabled.
nope I still disagree with you completely on this one, now matter what you say, the simple fact remains there is a giant neon sign over everyone's head, that allows us to EASILY keep track of nme cons, it was FAR from easy in the RW to keep track of an nme con.....please argue this point :rolleyes:
"ICONS don't float over the planes in the real world because they don't need to" ........seriously...... :headscratch: that statement is asinine.
sorry but icons do give us an unnatural ability to find and keep track of nme cons, other wise like I said before it would be a lot more like the RW were many fighters would just fly by each other with out EVER seeing each other, please tell me I am wrong that many fights never happened because they didn't "see" each other.
YOU are wrong period, it happens it's OK you are human and none of us are perfect :aok
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I don't know Ink ... I was in a couple of fights last night in Midwar, and once engaged, and the opponent is "deathly close", I don't believe that I ever look at the "icon". My eyes are on the plane and watching it's wings.
The only time that I ever really use the icons is to determine the distance the enemy is at and it's closure rate ... + or -.
I was engaged with a P-38, P-51, La-5, and an FM2 in a fight last night. All I could do was "avoid" and every time I looked around, it was to find each plane and see how far away and if it was closing or going away and then using that information to determine how I was going to make my next move. Without that information, and under those conditions, they all pretty much look to be the same size ... to me.
When planes are between 2.0 and 1.0 away from me, they look to be the same size and the same could be said when I see planes 1.0 to 600 away from me ... and this is due to the fact that depth perception and lighting in this game is no where near what I can see in real life.
So yes I do look for the icons in these situations, not to identify, but to determine distance and closure/extension rates.
There is no way in he-double-hockey-sticks that this game could render (in detail) what we see in real life when it comes to depth perception and lighting which is key to depth perception.
I don't consider icons a crutch or unfair at all ... icons make this game enjoyably playable.
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I don't know Ink ... I was in a couple of fights last night in Midwar, and once engaged, and the opponent is "deathly close", I don't believe that I ever look at the "icon". My eyes are on the plane and watching it's wings.
The only time that I ever really use the icons is to determine the distance the enemy is at and it's closure rate ... + or -.
I was engaged with a P-38, P-51, La-5, and an FM2 in a fight last night. All I could do was "avoid" and every time I looked around, it was to find each plane and see how far away and if it was closing or going away and then using that information to determine how I was going to make my next move. Without that information, and under those conditions, they all pretty much look to be the same size ... to me.
When planes are between 2.0 and 1.0 away from me, they look to be the same size and the same could be said when I see planes 1.0 to 600 away from me ... and this is due to the fact that depth perception and lighting in this game is no where near what I can see in real life.
So yes I do look for the icons in these situations, not to identify, but to determine distance and closure/extension rates.
There is no way in he-double-hockey-sticks that this game could render (in detail) what we see in real life when it comes to depth perception and lighting which is key to depth perception.
I don't consider icons a crutch or unfair at all ... icons make this game enjoyably playable.
I do agree that the game can not render what we see perfectly.....whether you were looking at the icons or not that close to you, they are still there and you still "see" them.....I also watch the planes when they are close to see what they are doing, and not the icon, but it is still there in our vision and we can "see" the plane that much easier, it allows us to easily track an nme con, with out those Icons it aint so easy.
many many fights never happened in the RW due to the fact that planes just didn't "see" each other, most kills were done by coming in and sneaking a kill with out being seen,I am sure the ones killed were not just flying along with out looking for nme cons, but yet never saw the con that got them, why is that?
hell Eric Hartman was a master at the sneak, almost ALL his kills were done this way, how could he "sneak" up on someone if he had a big ol neon sign over his head? he would not have been able to..... period.
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sorry but icons do give us an unnatural ability to find and keep track of nme cons, other wise like I said before it would be a lot more like the RW were many fighters would just fly by each other with out EVER seeing each other, please tell me I am wrong that many fights never happened because they didn't "see" each other.
You're wrong. A Cessna crossing your path two miles off looks like its sitting on your cowling.
You can easily tell whether or not you are looking at a car or a pickup at 6000 feet AGL.
The ONLY difficulty with spotting other aircraft is that there is an enormous amount of sky to cover. Once you "have them", they are easy to track and identify.
The estimate that "80 percent" of planes shot down never saw the enemy is largely based on a single source, Erich Hartmann's accounts. People who have interviewed multiple fighter pilots about their encounters put this figure much lower, as low as 20%. Pointing out that Hartmann was master of the sneak illuminates the fact that approaching unseen is hardly a given. Furthermore, we know that Hartmann was likely to simply break off combat IF detected. So his estimate might be very high compared to reality.
Icons exist, DESPITE a sim culture that is otherwise largely obsessed with realism because they are NECESSARY. In particular, no-icons in AHII such as making altitude a disadvantage, and giving the advantage to those who turn their resolutions very low to increase the size of the "dots".
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You're wrong. A Cessna crossing your path two miles off looks like its sitting on your cowling.
You can easily tell whether or not you are looking at a car or a pickup at 6000 feet AGL.
The ONLY difficulty with spotting other aircraft is that there is an enormous amount of sky to cover. Once you "have them", they are easy to track and identify.
The estimate that "80 percent" of planes shot down never saw the enemy is largely based on a single source, Erich Hartmann's accounts. People who have interviewed multiple fighter pilots about their encounters put this figure much lower, as low as 20%. Pointing out that Hartmann was master of the sneak illuminates the fact that approaching unseen is hardly a given. Furthermore, we know that Hartmann was likely to simply break off combat IF detected. So his estimate might be very high compared to reality.
Icons exist, DESPITE a sim culture that is otherwise largely obsessed with realism because they are NECESSARY. In particular, no-icons in AHII such as making altitude a disadvantage, and giving the advantage to those who turn their resolutions very low to increase the size of the "dots".
nope not "wrong" and icons are far from "necessary" they make it Easy to see and keep track of nme.
how many "cons" in this screenshot?
so what you and Krusty are saying you would be able to "see" all the cons in this screenshot if it was the RW? that's what you are saying?
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/hoardiconsoff.jpg)
and your figures on nme that didn't see each other is way off.
but what ever you guys can be delusional all you want, thinking a huge neon sign in red the size of a plane makes up the difference in what the monitor cannot display is quite funny.....
to say it makes it more realistic is even funner :rofl
how many cons are in that pic? lots of em.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/hoardiconson.jpg)
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Ink, you are arguing with someone who actual experience spotting air traffic and generally observing the world in as seen from an airplane. Planes are big. The sky is empty.
Hitech himself has stated that it is easier to track airplanes during mah-noovering in r/l than it is in here.
nope not "wrong" and icons are far from "necessary" they make it Easy to see and keep track of nme.
how many "cons" in this screenshot?
so what you and Krusty are saying you would be able to "see" all the cons in this screenshot if it was the RW? that's what you are saying?
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/hoardiconsoff.jpg)
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You're wrong. A Cessna crossing your path two miles off looks like its sitting on your cowling.
You can easily tell whether or not you are looking at a car or a pickup at 6000 feet AGL.
really...and i supposed you have first hand experience too? your version of a mile must be different than the standard american measurment...at 1.5 miles (7920 feet) you can tell if it's single engine or multi engine, but unless you're very well versed in aircraft identification or the plane is some neon color exactly what it is can be difficult...and i'm not talking about big passenger planes...a piper can be mistaken for a cessna at that range. far from looking like it's on your cowling.
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Ink, you are arguing with someone who actual experience spotting air traffic and generally observing the world in as seen from an airplane. Planes are big. The sky is empty.
Hitech himself has stated that it is easier to track airplanes during mah-noovering in r/l than it is in here.
so you and Hitech have fought and maneuvered against nme planes in a combat situation, that had real guns, that was painted to blend in with their surroundings.
that's all fine and dandy...and if hitech himself was standing before me and said that to me I would call BS and laugh....there is no way it is easier to track a maneuvering plane in the real world, than here with Icons on.
I would like to see the planes Hitech flew against.....
from a distance I can see how icons make up the difference of our vision that the monitor can not replicate, but as they get closer it goes beyond making up the difference and goes straight to a "game" helper to view the cons and keep track of them.
how many players would stay if there were no icons? well we see how many people enjoy the NO icon arena.
if the icon changed at a certain point maybe around 600, to say a very small red circle with NO distance counter and or plane type, or hell just make them disappear at a certain distance.
besides Hitech says Vulching is cool and I think its one of the lamest things one could do in a combat game. so I don't think EVERYTHING hitech says is perfect or correct.
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WOW ... end of discussion.
Ink has all the answers. He knows exactly what everyone sees and knows everyone's personal experiences ... bottom line ... everyone else is full of BS ... except Ink.
I'm done.
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BnZ in completely correct in the reasons why icons are in the game, it's a result of modeling a 3D world in a 2D display. Frankly, the OP's wish sounds to me as a way to help avoid combat as opposed to help increase both combat and the quality of combat in this game.
ack-ack
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WOW ... end of discussion.
Ink has all the answers. He knows exactly what everyone sees and knows everyone's personal experiences ... bottom line ... everyone else is full of BS ... except Ink.
I'm done.
that's right give up :rolleyes:
BnZ in completely correct in the reasons why icons are in the game, it's a result of modeling a 3D world in a 2D display. Frankly, the OP's wish sounds to me as a way to help avoid combat as opposed to help increase both combat and the quality of combat in this game.
ack-ack
I did agree with the fact that icons help to "see" the way our eyes do, I understand the whys....I never disagreed with that....what I can not agree with is a Neon Sign over the plane the same size as the plane, NOT being "easier" as it would be in real life.
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so you and Hitech have fought and maneuvered against nme planes in a combat situation, that had real guns, that was painted to blend in with their surroundings.
Armament has nothing to do with the visibility of planes. Camouflage schemes do not work when you lack a background to blend in with, which is exactly the case when you are thousands of feet in the air. It may help when the planes are grounded or NOE, that is about it. (Note I am NOT discussing shiny vrs. matte paint schemes here....indeed the flash of the former can give away an aircraft's presence many, many miles away.)
that's all fine and dandy...and if hitech himself was standing before me and said that to me I would call BS and laugh....there is no way it is easier to track a maneuvering plane in the real world, than here with Icons on.
I see...so your suppositions trump other's actual experience?
from a distance I can see how icons make up the difference of our vision that the monitor can not replicate, but as they get closer it goes beyond making up the difference and goes straight to a "game" helper to view the cons and keep track of them.
if the icon changed at a certain point maybe around 600, to say a very small red circle with NO distance counter and or plane type, or hell just make them disappear at a certain distance.
You have the relationship almost exactly backwards. Icons indeed almost certainly do make airplanes easier to spot at 6,000 yards than they are in real life, but it is a necessary compromise. As I have pointed out before, the primary difficulty in spotting aircraft is that there is just SO MUCH sky to cover, not that they are hard to see or identify once you put your eyes on them. You could possibly get a level of spotting and identifying ability close to that you would enjoy in r/l by cranking zoom to maximum, but the limited FOV would make it unnaturally difficult to scan and fly.
A primary limitation of computer screens is the tendency of 3D objects to blend into similar colored backgrounds they are thousands of feet away from, which is not the case in real life.
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If you cannot tell the difference between a high-wing and a low-wing at 1.5 miles in clear air, get new glasses.
You should also be able to see the difference between round and squared off wingtips, provided you can see the planform.
The almost ubiquitous mistake for new pilots was opening firing on enemy aircraft while still *too far away*, because the aircraft looked closer to them than it actually was.
really...and i supposed you have first hand experience too? your version of a mile must be different than the standard american measurment...at 1.5 miles (7920 feet) you can tell if it's single engine or multi engine, but unless you're very well versed in aircraft identification or the plane is some neon color exactly what it is can be difficult...and i'm not talking about big passenger planes...a piper can be mistaken for a cessna at that range. far from looking like it's on your cowling.
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Armament has nothing to do with the visibility of planes. Camouflage schemes do not work when you lack a background to blend in with, which is exactly the case when you are thousands of feet in the air. It may help when the planes are grounded or NOE, that is about it. (Note I am NOT discussing shiny vrs. matte paint schemes here....indeed the flash of the former can give away an aircraft's presence many, many miles away.)
I see...so your suppositions trump other's actual experience?
You have the relationship almost exactly backwards. Icons indeed almost certainly do make airplanes easier to spot at 6,000 yards than they are in real life, but it is a necessary compromise. As I have pointed out before, the primary difficulty in spotting aircraft is that there is just SO MUCH sky to cover, not that they are hard to see or identify once you put your eyes on them. You could possibly get a level of spotting and identifying ability close to that you would enjoy in r/l by cranking zoom to maximum, but the limited FOV would make it unnaturally difficult to scan and fly.
A primary limitation of computer screens is the tendency of 3D objects to blend into similar colored backgrounds they are thousands of feet away from, which is not the case in real life.
good arguments...yes i will agree that it is a lot easier to track an nme con at 12k feet then at 1200...most fights in AH are close to the deck and almost always end up there, so a plane painted in a way to blend in would go a long way to hide itself, which was done very often. besides the fact that they could hide in clouds which we all know we can not in AH.
I know guns don't have anything to do with it, only point in that is if there were guns involved in Hitech's "fight" then things would be a bit different the minds on other things, like not getting shot.
every thing I have read tells me there where far fewer real "dogfights" that happened then what has been fantasized about, most kills were sneaks, many many planes flew by each other without them seeing each other...if they like us had Giant neon signs over their heads how many would have seen the nme?
someone getting sneaked up on in AH all he has to do is look back BAM there is the icon......does not matter how the nme positions him self he will not be missed the ICON is glaring right at him, this is not the case in a real situation, far too many plane were shot down from sneak attacks...why? because the nme was not spotted.
seems really simple to me :headscratch:
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If you cannot tell the difference between a high-wing and a low-wing at 1.5 miles in clear air, get new glasses.
You should also be able to see the difference between round and squared off wingtips, provided you can see the planform.
The almost ubiquitous mistake for new pilots was opening firing on enemy aircraft while still *too far away*, because the aircraft looked closer to them than it actually was.
didn't say high-wing or low-wing...or round wingtips vs squared...both companies make and have made a variety of aircraft that have some similarities in basic shape, including rudder and wing shape...there are obvious differences that someone very familiar with both makes could pick out given the time to observe, but that's not what we're talking about.
american pilots were trained to fire between 500 and 600 yards by the relative size of the enemy aircraft in the gunsight...not because to the naked eye they looked closer than they were...with barely 20 hours of actual flight time and zero combat time it's easy to understand a new pilot firing too early in the heat of battle.
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Easier to track than what?
That real life? No
Than "no icons" yes.
krusty you ever fly a 51 mustang in 4G high speed turns while trying to spot a wing of 4 190s barreling for B17s and doing all this while checking your six for the 109K4 that spotted you in real life? No... so you can't make a statement based upon this. But one can say that that neon sign is showing you alot more info than just what it is and is much easier to make out against camoflage/ground textures (something in real life you didn't have either and camo WAS meant so you could not see the enemy. So in theory it is much harder to track something that blends with the ground in real life and with no icons than with the NEON RED icons over your plane :aok
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My 10,000 plus hours in real airplanes tell me they are hard to spot and hard to track.
I especially like the Cessna at two miles comment.
2 miles is 10,560 feet.
That is a 40 minute walk. A 16 minute jog.
And folks are claiming they can identify the specific make and model of a airplane with 30 foot wingspan.
No point in arguing with delusion as grand as that.
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My 10,000 plus hours in real airplanes tell me they are hard to spot and hard to track.
I especially like the Cessna at two miles comment.
2 miles is 10,560 feet.
That is a 40 minute walk. A 16 minute jog.
And folks are claiming they can identify the specific make and model of a airplane with 30 foot wingspan.
No point in arguing with delusion as grand as that.
And HiTech says you are wrong about the icons. It is his game, you lose.
Also, nobody claimed to know the specific make at that range.
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And HiTech says you are wrong about the icons. It is his game, you lose.
Also, nobody claimed to know the specific make at that range.
dawger didn't say anything about icons karnak...and read bnz's comment about the cessna at 2 miles again...according to him that's close enough to look like it's sitting on your cowling.
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There is no way in he-double-hockey-sticks that this game could render (in detail) what we see in real life when it comes to depth perception and lighting which is key to depth perception.
Bingo...
Until true VR 3D headsets become the baseline for all of Hitech's customers, icons will exist. That is, unless you fly in the AvA;
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff14/DeliriumP38/blind.jpg)
To that one AvA staff member that decided to send me a rude PM, I have no problem getting kills in a no icon atmosphere. The last FSO I flew with no icons I had plenty of scalps, I just don't like it. It favors the faster of the two aircraft, further favors the guy with the better computer, and lessens the amount of turn fighting that takes place.
edit: if an alternate option was available instead of full or no icons, I'd be all for it. For example, a small red dot (that grew in size as the distance lessened) under the aircraft, rather than text. Something you could miss if you were carelessly looking around, particularly at great distances, but something you could still pick up much more easily at closer range. Also, if the dot was below the aircraft it wouldn't appear if you were low enough to be helped by the ground clutter.
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good arguments...yes i will agree that it is a lot easier to track an nme con at 12k feet then at 1200...most fights in AH are close to the deck and almost always end up there, so a plane painted in a way to blend in would go a long way to hide itself, which was done very often. besides the fact that they could hide in clouds which we all know we can not in AH.
One thousand feet is far enough away from any background that you should have 0 trouble picking distinguishing a large object from the ground cover, no matter how it is painted. Again, this is a limitation of computer graphics.
Actually hiding in clouds could make your plane stick out like a sore thumb, depending on lighting. In any case, rendering of cloud effects is a separate issue.
every thing I have read tells me there where far fewer real "dogfights" that happened then what has been fantasized about, most kills were sneaks,
I have already addressed the fact that putting the number of "sneak" kills at 80% is almost certainly a gross overestimation. There are some indications that it may be as low as 20%.
someone getting sneaked up on in AH all he has to do is look back BAM there is the icon......does not matter how the nme positions him self he will not be missed the ICON is glaring right at him, this is not the case in a real situation, far too many plane were shot down from sneak attacks...why? because the nme was not spotted.
seems really simple to me :headscratch:
Sit down in your computer chair. Take your joystick in hand. Now look backwards over your left and right shoulders. Try to do so at least every 5 seconds. Tell me how easy that is. Now scan the ENTIRE sphere of directional space surrounding you, trying to hit every spot at least every 5 seconds. Keep this up for awhile. In abit you will understand why an attacking airplane might not be spotted. Hint: It is NOT because an aircraft is hard to see in the clear blue sky, the way it can be in AHII.
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Sit down in your computer chair. Take your joystick in hand. Now look backwards over your left and right shoulders. Try to do so at least every 5 seconds. Tell me how easy that is. Now scan the ENTIRE sphere of directional space surrounding you, trying to hit every spot at least every 5 seconds. Keep this up for awhile. In abit you will understand why an attacking airplane might not be spotted.
sounds alot like WW2
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sounds alot like WW2
And it has nothing to do with how visible an airplane you have your eyes on should, and everything to do with how putting your eyes on every piece of sky an airplane can conceivably in in r/l can be a true "pain in the neck"!
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-1
In reality you can spot aircraft so much easier than on a computer screen.
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Bingo...
Until true VR 3D headsets become the baseline for all of Hitech's customers, icons will exist. That is, unless you fly in the AvA;
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff14/DeliriumP38/blind.jpg)
To that one AvA staff member that decided to send me a rude PM, I have no problem getting kills in a no icon atmosphere. The last FSO I flew with no icons I had plenty of scalps, I just don't like it. It favors the faster of the two aircraft, further favors the guy with the better computer, and lessens the amount of turn fighting that takes place.
edit: if an alternate option was available instead of full or no icons, I'd be all for it. For example, a small red dot (that grew in size as the distance lessened) under the aircraft, rather than text. Something you could miss if you were carelessly looking around, particularly at great distances, but something you could still pick up much more easily at closer range. Also, if the dot was below the aircraft it wouldn't appear if you were low enough to be helped by the ground clutter.
there hasn't been a no enemy icon fso delirium...there was only one off night event that ended with 80 non arcade players enjoying themselves...every other fso has been short range icons with the lowest at 800 yards, and that one caused a lot of whining from the verbal arcade crowd. i won't even get into your assertion that icons exist due to a depth perception limitations.
in spite of you regurgitating the same tired old b.s. i like the possibility of your alternative to the neon icons out at 6000 yards...but i have to wonder, considering the rendering and visual limitations in ah, and computer hardware variables just how viable would it be for main arena use. there are a lot of people who seem to think positive identification of a 50 foot airplane 3+ miles in the distance is realistic, mostly because some other player without any real experience says so...however, if say htc did implement something like your idea, at some point that red dot has to turn into a plane type identifier to simulate a trained pilot's ability to positively identify a plane...and i'm not talking about twin or quad engine aircraft...this is just fighters...the bigger planes would require slightly different settings. just thinking out loud, what if the icon in use now were to change size with distance? say at 6000 yards it's a small mark on your screen, just slightly bigger than the airplane dot and by the time it gets to possibly 17-1800 yards it's a full size neon sign. not that we know whether or not it's actually possible to program, but if it were and htc would implement it, would the masses accept it?
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Gyrene, you're the one spouting BS and loaded terminology, explicitly insulting everyone that doesn't agree with you as "arcade" players and that you are an "non arcade" player when the exact opposite is true. By doing this you imply we are all inferior in skill and abilities, which is a false claim, and merely egotistic chest thumping.
The BS is you say "Fly with no icons because you suck if you don't!" and despite facts, proof, debate on physics of light, optics, combat pilot reports, you cling to a delusion that you are better than all of them by flying with "no icon" settings.
It gets very old. You've been proven wrong so many times, please stop with the insults any time the topic comes up. Overcoming an arbitrary handicap is not "realistic" nor is it "harder" -- just a different skillset that is useless except to those who cannot compete in the normal "settings"...
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Gyrene, you're the one spouting BS and loaded terminology, explicitly insulting everyone that doesn't agree with you as "arcade" players and that you are an "non arcade" player when the exact opposite is true. By doing this you imply we are all inferior in skill and abilities, which is a false claim, and merely egotistic chest thumping.
The BS is you say "Fly with no icons because you suck if you don't!" and despite facts, proof, debate on physics of light, optics, combat pilot reports, you cling to a delusion that you are better than all of them by flying with "no icon" settings.
It gets very old. You've been proven wrong so many times, please stop with the insults any time the topic comes up. Overcoming an arbitrary handicap is not "realistic" nor is it "harder" -- just a different skillset that is useless except to those who cannot compete in the normal "settings"...
whatever krusty...didn't say anything like that but it's your dream so hang on to it. if you're one of those "i refuse to consider anything but a big neon sign at unrealistic distances" then ya, the term "arcade" is fitting...don't be mad, that's just what you're used to.
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And HiTech says you are wrong about the icons. It is his game, you lose.
Also, nobody claimed to know the specific make at that range.
I never said a word about icons. I was referring to the ridiculous assertions regarding real world visual acuity. There is math to back it up.
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i just got to thinking on this subject.
I think it would be a great deal more realistic you could say if we had the ability to turn your own icon off.i mean,you can turn enemy icons off but no one else does it so you're just at a disadvantage.
it kind of goes along with tracers...you can turn your tracers off and you nor anyone else can see them.why cant we turn off our icon if we cant see anyone else's icon.
IMO theres no point in having skins other then to look "cool"
if you like flying on the deck you might select a more green or dark skin to somewhat blend in with the ground.but when you have a big P47 1.5k right under you it doesnt really help.especialy when you are trying to sneak under someone and they see half an inch of red markings under you.
it would also help with C47s trying to NOE into a town or land.
we need to impliment this or at least change the icon range to 2k or 1.5k.
just my opinion though,voice yours
EDIT:you would still see friendly icons,but not at 6k.vis range on friendlies would be at maybe 4k.but there would still be a green marker on your clipboard map
EDIT2:keep in mind if you keep your icon you will still see other players with their icons on as well.
That's where the problem started.
You should have quit while you were ahead...
AVA does not have icons. It is a blast, but the gen. pop. would not go for it.
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see what you started lthunderpocket :rofl.
semp
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see what you started lthunderpocket :rofl.
semp
yup.but its not me arguing.people forget its the wishlist and can just put a -1 or a +1 if they like or dislike.but everyone on here likes to contradict and argue with eachother.so technically i didnt start it.i just had an idea.
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yup.but its not me arguing.people forget its the wishlist and can just put a -1 or a +1 if they like or dislike.but everyone on here likes to contradict and argue with eachother.so technically i didnt start it.i just had an idea.
you want to see an even better catfight. go post a thread asking which is better amd or intel :bolt:.
semp
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I can see this being abused so easily. You get into a dogfight and either lose your advantage or suffer damage, cut off your icons, then dive to the deck and try to run away and blend in.
Thats the first thing I thought of as well - when you shoot someone down now, their icon disappears as the wreckage falls. If you can just turn your icon off and go into a spin, most would think that someone else just shot you down.
-1
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you want to see an even better catfight. go post a thread asking which is better amd or intel :bolt:.
semp
ok.finish your story and post it and i will
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AvA no icons all the time everytime...
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Thats the first thing I thought of as well - when you shoot someone down now, their icon disappears as the wreckage falls. If you can just turn your icon off and go into a spin, most would think that someone else just shot you down.
-1
did you read the part when i said u cant change your icon on and off mid flight.its the same way no tracers works
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did you read the part when i said u cant change your icon on and off mid flight.its the same way no tracers works
It doesn't matter. Your request is, at its base, a request for a method to avoid combat. This is a PvP combat game and facilitating a skill less method of avoiding combat would be bad for the game.
No, being quasi-stealthed and getting ambush kills isn't really combat.
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It doesn't matter. Your request is, at its base, a request for a method to avoid combat. This is a PvP combat game and facilitating a skill less method of avoiding combat would be bad for the game.
No, being quasi-stealthed and getting ambush kills isn't really combat.
to avoid combat?lol if i felt like avoiding combat i wouldnt play.icons would just make it harder to be seen.being stealth and ambushing is just as much combat as anything else.but if you feel like having big icons so u can easily spot someone,thats your training wheels.
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to avoid combat?lol if i felt like avoiding combat i wouldnt play.icons would just make it harder to be seen.being stealth and ambushing is just as much combat as anything else.but if you feel like having big icons so u can easily spot someone,thats your training wheels.
See, now you're going into the fake, elitist crap that you claimed you weren't doing before.
I don't get much enjoyment out of shooting an aircraft that is just flying straight and level and doesn't know I am there. It isn't fun.
I prefer to have a contest of skill and for that both my opponent and I need to know the other is there.
The fact that you want to avoid a contest of tactics and maneuvers to the point that you want to simulate your pilot as legally blind says a lot about what you are looking for. In addition, being able to turn icons off as you suggest would be an advantage to you as you you know to be looking for dots and your opponent would not. You are the one trying to set the rules to favor you over the other players and in such a way as to avoid actual fighting in preference of boring ambush kills.
May as well go HO people for all the skill that takes.
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AvA Arena for that....no icons in MA would be chaos :salute
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a piper can be mistaken for a cessna at that range. far from looking like it's on your cowling.
BS.
I can easily tell the difference between a Piper and Cessna at over 2 miles...have done so numerous times real life. Hell, I can even tell the difference between Cessna models...say 150 vs 206. I have positively ID's a 747 at 12 miles (as called by ATC) and could even tell the airline (happened to be a Korean 747, all over blue)
No icons would be a perfect world if we could see as well in game, but we can't. IMO using short icons is a good compromise.
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BS.
I can easily tell the difference between a Piper and Cessna at over 2 miles...have done so numerous times real life. Hell, I can even tell the difference between Cessna models...say 150 vs 206. I have positively ID's a 747 at 12 miles (as called by ATC) and could even tell the airline (happened to be a Korean 747, all over blue)
No icons would be a perfect world if we could see as well in game, but we can't. IMO using short icons is a good compromise.
good for you. airplanes fly right over my house while landing at ontario airport. I cant tell the difference between a 747 and a cessna. there's a reason why the ava only has a few people, get rid of icons in ma (wont happen by the way) and many people will just quit the game. It is not about skill but more to do with how we perceive the game. when i tried the ava i coudnt tell the difference between a shadow and a con, so I would ended up chasing shadows and getting killed by the cons and that was while using ww1 airplanes.
no icons in ma will definately kill the game faster than you can say ho's are not really acm.
semp
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Since the largest Cessna they make would fit under one wing of a 747, that doesn't say much for your
aircraft ID skills :D I'm all for icons myself, and I spent over 20 years working on a flightline. You get to
the point where shapes, windows and wing/engine placement will allow you to make a pretty strong guess
as to type or even model number.
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good for you. airplanes fly right over my house while landing at ontario airport. I cant tell the difference between a 747 and a cessna. there's a reason why the ava only has a few people, get rid of icons in ma (wont happen by the way) and many people will just quit the game. It is not about skill but more to do with how we perceive the game. when i tried the ava i coudnt tell the difference between a shadow and a con, so I would ended up chasing shadows and getting killed by the cons and that was while using ww1 airplanes.
no icons in ma will definately kill the game faster than you can say ho's are not really acm.
semp
i can tell the diff between a 152 and a 172.i can tell the difference of a c5 or a kc135 at 15k,i can tell the difference of a lot of different planes IRL (mostly military)im not saying it would be easy in game to tell what plane it is cause it doesnt matter what plane he is
it comes down to skill,you dont know what he is,but you still will die if you dont have the skills to shoot him down.just because you have a big red sign doesnt mean you will get the kill then.the only thing that would be different is spotting the guy.
if you see a p51 at 5.0k low and u are in a p47 with 5k alt advantage,you would know that you dont want it to become a fight that you cant control the end,you might try to BnZ him or somthing else.(thats with icons)now same scenario,same planes.not knowing what he is you might give it a little more though as to how you are going to go about your attack.once you dive down and notice that he is a p51 you would use your best tactics to kill him.
in a way i think this would change the way people go about dogfighting.
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Not having icons makes it a lot more likely you will get the kill.
I don't know where you are getting the silly idea that people think icons helps them get kills as it is quite the opposite. Icons make a fight more likely.
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Not having icons makes it a lot more likely you will get the kill.
I don't know where you are getting the silly idea that people think icons helps them get kills as it is quite the opposite. Icons make a fight more likely.
i dont think that.i think with no icons it would be harder to spot people without their icons.keep in mind icons would still exist for people who wanted to have a big red sign under them as well
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Exactly, it makes it harder to have a fight but a lot more likely to get a kill, or be killed. It is all about the sneak kill where the other guy never makes a move. Basically you increase the SA skill and reduce all other skills
Icons have the effect of saying "Here I am and there you are, lets get it on!" and then you find out who is better in a actual fight. This reduces the skill needed for effective SA, but increases the values of all the other skills involved.
The request to have no icons you are making is a request for sneaking and fight avoidance. It doesn't matter what you want it to be, all that matters is what it would actually be.
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Exactly, it makes it harder to have a fight but a lot more likely to get a kill, or be killed. It is all about the sneak kill where the other guy never makes a move. Basically you increase the SA skill and reduce all other skills
Icons have the effect of saying "Here I am and there you are, lets get it on!" and then you find out who is better in a actual fight. This reduces the skill needed for effective SA, but increases the values of all the other skills involved.
The request to have no icons you are making is a request for sneaking and fight avoidance. It doesn't matter what you want it to be, all that matters is what it would actually be.
ok thanks for your opinion
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ok thanks for your opinion
The problem you have here is that, like most people who make requests for games, you haven't even put basic effort into thinking of the consequences of your idea beyond the immediate effect you think it would have on you.
Part of any design process has to be tearing apart an idea and finding the unintended consequences before it is implemented. When somebody comes up with an idea they should do their best to find the weaknesses and exploitable effects of that idea.
Everything I have said in this thread would happen if HTC were to implement your idea. Fortunately, HiTech and co are pretty good at thinking these things through.
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"SA" doesn't figure into it. Staying fast NOE and looking for someone "skylighted" and turning down your resolution to see dots better...all of this is a product of the great AvA "No icons" experiment.
It does not work. It introduces results that bear no resemblance to what real air combat was like, ever has been like, or ever could be like.
Exactly, it makes it harder to have a fight but a lot more likely to get a kill, or be killed. It is all about the sneak kill where the other guy never makes a move. Basically you increase the SA skill and reduce all other skills
Icons have the effect of saying "Here I am and there you are, lets get it on!" and then you find out who is better in a actual fight. This reduces the skill needed for effective SA, but increases the values of all the other skills involved.
The request to have no icons you are making is a request for sneaking and fight avoidance. It doesn't matter what you want it to be, all that matters is what it would actually be.
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Yeah i think the limited vis thru screen would make it too difficult to determine aircraft type and therefore your engagement plan. Even in the real war, for example, P-47's often had gawdy colors or patterns so other allied pilots could see they weren't Fw-190's. It is fun with reduced icon range or no icon ranges in special events,but there you don't have an axis-allied plane mix situation.
A nice idea for discussion though.
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"SA" doesn't figure into it. Staying fast NOE and looking for someone "skylighted" and turning down your resolution to see dots better...all of this is a product of the great AvA "No icons" experiment.
It does not work. It introduces results that bear no resemblance to what real air combat was like, ever has been like, or ever could be like.
Ok, point taken. I hardly claim that I can predict all of the outcomes.
Keep in mind that the OP's suggestion is even worse than the AvA because it would create a mixed environment, where some people had icons and some did not, making keeping the situation in mind even harder.
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+1 :aok
But I enjoy AvA since they went no icon.
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This debate has been going on in the AvA since well here........
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,35286.0.html
Even having it in only AvA causes much gnashing of teeth.
The solution will be the new player hosted arenas, then there will be enough arenas to cater to everyones niche.
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Gents,
Pls don't smoke my smoke.
:old:
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BS.
I can easily tell the difference between a Piper and Cessna at over 2 miles...have done so numerous times real life. Hell, I can even tell the difference between Cessna models...say 150 vs 206. I have positively ID's a 747 at 12 miles (as called by ATC) and could even tell the airline (happened to be a Korean 747, all over blue)
No icons would be a perfect world if we could see as well in game, but we can't. IMO using short icons is a good compromise.
i''m going to call a "partial b.s." on that. no doubt familiarity is key but unless you have an insanely superhuman ability to judge distance or you fly around with a military grade range finder, i could see a mile to mile and a half, but not 2 miles or beyond. even then determining a cessna 150 from a 206 at that range is not something that can be done without aide unless you were at such an angle as to be able to clearly see the landing gear and cabin area, not to mention being highly familiar with the aircraft. most of us don't have the aircraft familiarity experience let alone the flight time, but i've done the 1 mile and 1.5 mile veiwing of various aircraft with and without range finders, the obvious ones are easy but the similar types were more difficult and i can only imagine trying to properly identify single engine fighters a mile or more away that weren't painted bright white from inside a scratched and dirty canopy with the sun glaring down on you.
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"No icon" would only work in axis vs allies and will not work in an arean where same plane types are on opposing sides.
That said, I like to turn the icon off when chasing and shooting a maneuvering plane.
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i''m going to call a "partial b.s." on that. no doubt familiarity is key but unless you have an insanely superhuman ability to judge distance or you fly around with a military grade range finder, i could see a mile to mile and a half, but not 2 miles or beyond. even then determining a cessna 150 from a 206 at that range is not something that can be done without aide unless you were at such an angle as to be able to clearly see the landing gear and cabin area, not to mention being highly familiar with the aircraft. most of us don't have the aircraft familiarity experience let alone the flight time, but i've done the 1 mile and 1.5 mile veiwing of various aircraft with and without range finders, the obvious ones are easy but the similar types were more difficult and i can only imagine trying to properly identify single engine fighters a mile or more away that weren't painted bright white from inside a scratched and dirty canopy with the sun glaring down on you.
The 747 was 12 miles as called by ATC radar. For the 150/206 comparison the distance was actually 10,600'...I know because I was sitting in a fire station at one end of the runway, the aircraft were at the other end.
I agree that my familiarity with aircraft helps in my ability to ID them.
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In small quantities it is "kinda fun" in the AVA. No icons in the MA would be a terrible nightmare. The AVA is a pickfest like the MA although you're getting picked by someone you never even see, imagine that X300 in the MA----> NO THANK YOU
JUGgler
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Blah blah blah blah etc.
+1
-C+
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i''m going to call a "partial b.s." on that. no doubt familiarity is key but unless you have an insanely superhuman ability to judge distance or you fly around with a military grade range finder, i could see a mile to mile and a half, but not 2 miles or beyond. even then determining a cessna 150 from a 206 at that range is not something that can be done without aide unless you were at such an angle as to be able to clearly see the landing gear and cabin area, not to mention being highly familiar with the aircraft. most of us don't have the aircraft familiarity experience let alone the flight time, but i've done the 1 mile and 1.5 mile veiwing of various aircraft with and without range finders, the obvious ones are easy but the similar types were more difficult and i can only imagine trying to properly identify single engine fighters a mile or more away that weren't painted bright white from inside a scratched and dirty canopy with the sun glaring down on you.
I'm going to give you some advice a 3D animation instructor once gave me.
Pay attention to the world around you, right now, right here. When you're walking, driving, or sitting, keep your eyes open and observe things.
I think your entire clinging grip on the belief that "no icons" is realistic is based on a false understanding of distances and human sight. I have a stretch of road I drive along to and from work daily. There's a hill at each end of this stretch and a long dip in between, meaning you can look up and see the road for at least 2-3 miles (if not 5 or more) and clearly pick out lanes, trees on the side of the road, see how much traffic (cars, trucks, etc) are on the road.
I see aircraft small and large flying over downtown here where I work. There are certain minimum altitude regulations here so I know they're at least a certain distance away, but yet you can still make out plenty of details. You can see the livery colors of airlines at least 10000 ft AGL clear as day. You can make out individual details on helicopters and cessna-type planes. I may not be able to ID the plane if I don't know the names, but if I look at it I can describe clear as day "low wing, twin engine, engines forward to the tip of the nose, long fuselage, round, high flying tail, etc"
I don't think you really understand the distances you see every day nor the details you are observing, and so you cling to this no-icons ideal. You're able to see quite a long distance and pick out many details.
So I again encourage you to look at the world around you and stop and actually think about what you're observing more. You may come to realize just how wrong you've been.
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I'm going to give you some advice a 3D animation instructor once gave me.
Pay attention to the world around you, right now, right here. When you're walking, driving, or sitting, keep your eyes open and observe things.
I think your entire clinging grip on the belief that "no icons" is realistic is based on a false understanding of distances and human sight. I have a stretch of road I drive along to and from work daily. There's a hill at each end of this stretch and a long dip in between, meaning you can look up and see the road for at least 2-3 miles (if not 5 or more) and clearly pick out lanes, trees on the side of the road, see how much traffic (cars, trucks, etc) are on the road.
I see aircraft small and large flying over downtown here where I work. There are certain minimum altitude regulations here so I know they're at least a certain distance away, but yet you can still make out plenty of details. You can see the livery colors of airlines at least 10000 ft AGL clear as day. You can make out individual details on helicopters and cessna-type planes. I may not be able to ID the plane if I don't know the names, but if I look at it I can describe clear as day "low wing, twin engine, engines forward to the tip of the nose, long fuselage, round, high flying tail, etc"
I don't think you really understand the distances you see every day nor the details you are observing, and so you cling to this no-icons ideal. You're able to see quite a long distance and pick out many details.
So I again encourage you to look at the world around you and stop and actually think about what you're observing more. You may come to realize just how wrong you've been.
The real world does not have:
Camoflaged sesnas and 747s
The AH 3D world also doesn't have:
The full spectrum of colors
Haze
Dirty windscreens
Mist
Shadows from Clouds
A vibrating shaking platform to see from
Technically the pixel resolution in the AH does not match the real world. True.
Arguing the technical difference between Real and AH to justify Icons is not very relevant. Real life visuals as you have described are more relevant but with the caviots listed above. However, Icons vastly over compansate for the lack of visual clarity in AH vs the real world. The strategies used in the real war made very good use of the invisibility of camo painted aircraft. There is no ability to make use of paint scemes to hide in the canapoy of the terrain in AH.
Folks don't like getting snuck up on, as evidence by the constant [Hey why can't I get a darn Check six!!!] on range channel. Icons minimize sneak attacks.
It's not more realistic to not have sneek attacks, it's a gameplay decision.
Folks that like no icons, think the game offers more strategy options while playing. Detractors say it's so folks can do more sneak attack picking etc...
Both are correct. :salute
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I'm going to give you some advice a 3D animation instructor once gave me.
Pay attention to the world around you, right now, right here. When you're walking, driving, or sitting, keep your eyes open and observe things.
I think your entire clinging grip on the belief that "no icons" is realistic is based on a false understanding of distances and human sight. I have a stretch of road I drive along to and from work daily. There's a hill at each end of this stretch and a long dip in between, meaning you can look up and see the road for at least 2-3 miles (if not 5 or more) and clearly pick out lanes, trees on the side of the road, see how much traffic (cars, trucks, etc) are on the road.
I see aircraft small and large flying over downtown here where I work. There are certain minimum altitude regulations here so I know they're at least a certain distance away, but yet you can still make out plenty of details. You can see the livery colors of airlines at least 10000 ft AGL clear as day. You can make out individual details on helicopters and cessna-type planes. I may not be able to ID the plane if I don't know the names, but if I look at it I can describe clear as day "low wing, twin engine, engines forward to the tip of the nose, long fuselage, round, high flying tail, etc"
I don't think you really understand the distances you see every day nor the details you are observing, and so you cling to this no-icons ideal. You're able to see quite a long distance and pick out many details.
So I again encourage you to look at the world around you and stop and actually think about what you're observing more. You may come to realize just how wrong you've been.
you really are full of yourself aren't you? you sit there and attempt to tell me i'm not aware of the distances i see on a daily basis yet you have no clue what the actual distance is between 2 hill tops you travel on a daily basis. unlike a person who spends a lot of time working with distances and memorizing the visual perspectives, i know the average person cannot correctly determine the difference between 100 and 200 yards visually, let alone a mile. and just judging from that tale of the road you travel, you're an average person.
being able to see the colors on a 128+ foot passenger airline from 2 miles is no great feat on a clear day considering the bright colors are painted against a white background. try correctly identifying 2 similarly shaped 48 foot aircraft painted in flat drab colors, flying directly at you or at slight oblique angles toward you, from 2 miles, better yet do it from 18,000 feet away.
you need to get something straight in your skull, before you attempt to use your false sense of superiority again, i've done the work repeatedly at more than one airport and used multiple means to determine distances including range finders. i am fully aware that no icons is not realistic compared to life due to the way objects are rendered in aces high and the scaled down world we see on our computer monitors, but it is by far more realistic than a giant neon sign that starts glowing from 18,000+ feet away.
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for one I never even remotely said we should get rid of icons, just the opposite the MA's need the icons. I have flown without icons as a matter of fact the time I flew without icons was a night off of FSO and we did a no icon fight, I had the most kills of the night...on ether side.(I was flying under the name BUDO if you wanna check up on me) so I have no problem without icons, but for the MA they are needed to insure a even playing field for EVERYONE.
to truly think icons make up for the lack of the monitor being unable to render what the human eye can see is absurd. it goes far beyond that.
during the war very few actual "dogfights" happened, to argue this point is well... I don't want to insult anyone but they need to do some damn reading and stop watching "dogfights" on "history" channel.
question-where would they list an event that took place on a off FSO night? I was just looking at the Special events page and can not find the night I was referring to.... and have no clue as to where it would be? :headscratch:
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that was a good night for you ink...i don't think official log files were kept on it though. check with daddog and see.
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that was a good night for you ink...i don't think official log files were kept on it though. check with daddog and see.
ya it was a rare one that's for sure, I am positive they kept the logs I checked them out back then that's how I know I had the most kills, it was a couple years ago, I don't remember what it was called or where I saw the logs :headscratch:
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ink:
http://ahevents.org/event-logs.html
seems logs only go back to about 2008 tho.
oops, I think i misread. it was not a fso, so some other special-special event.. I'm not sure where to find those.
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ink:
http://ahevents.org/event-logs.html
seems logs only go back to about 2008 tho.
oops, I think i misread. it was not a fso, so some other special-special event.. I'm not sure where to find those.
ya I it was an off night, I believe it was after 08 :headscratch:
thanx though :salute
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I still believe something like this would work for folks that don't want to know exactly what
type of enemy planes are around, or how far away they are. The enemy would still be marked,
but with ony a simple red dot.
This would be made an option of course. Icons would remain as they are now: Normal Icon/Plane Type Icon/Friendly Only Icon.
The new option would be something like Enemy Dot Icon.
It'd be a sort of transition between enemy icons on/off
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc426/Coogan11/doticon.jpg)
Coogan
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there's a reason why few people fly ava and it has nothing to do with the fact that you cant pick any plane you want. but it has more to do with the fact that like me, I coudnt tell the plane shadows from the real planes, so i got killed every time by my own shadow :noid. been in that arena flying perhaps 1/2 hr. they get rid of icons in the ma or change them and I'll be (and lots of other players) watching more sheep dancing that before.
there's wishes that are game killers and this is one of them :uhoh. the bring back the night wish is the other . we barely survived having no sheep in the game (compare # of players to when we had sheep) we wont survive this for sure :bolt:.
semp
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Being able to pick any plane you want and also having a win the war reset must be a bigger draw then you think.
When I first got involved with AvA, enemy icons were on and it was still a ghost town.
Turning them off actually revived the arena for quite a while. It was a different experience and a lot of people liked it.
There will be continued experimentation in the AvA, but the notion that the icon settings killed the AvA doesn't explain why it was dead before that ever happened.
It would of course be a terrible idea for an arena that has common planes for all sides.
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we DO have an arena for this....