Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dago on August 01, 2011, 12:30:30 PM
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Went with a couple guys to the gun range Saturday, we all took 1911's. A couple Kimbers and a Colt. I couldn't help but notice we were the only one's running the targets out a ways. I did some decent shooting at 25 yards, and at 15 yards, was pleased with it, the Kimbers are nice and accurate weapons.
But, almost everyone else but us at the range was shooting targets way up close. Some even at 7 yards. Really?
Why does anyone shoot at 7 yards anyway? I can hit the target by throwing empty brass that far. Seriously, shoot at least 15 yards. I think people shoot 7 yards to try to fool themselves into thinking they are good shots. If you can't hit anything farther than that, than throw rocks. Don't even try and give me any 'bad guy will be within 7 yards" crap either, if you can hit at 15 yards, you are still covered closer. Learn to shoot at a moderate distance at least so you can at least somewhat, in some small way learn real shooting practices and techniques. Amazing how many people I meet who think they are good shots, but can't hit anything farther than they can toss a bowling ball.
Self-gratification seems to override the desire to learn and do well these days.
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Most confrontations that require self defense occur at very close ranges. People like to practice at these closer ranges. I actually have some drills that I run through that start at 7 yards then come in to 5 yards and then 3 yards. At these ranges, you are shooting more on instinct then using the sights. It isn't really target shooting like it sounds like you are doing. At least that is how it is for me...
I do like to run the target back to the wall to test myself too though.
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Most confrontations that require self defense occur at very close ranges. People like to practice at these closer ranges. I actually have some drills that I run through that start at 7 yards then come in to 5 yards and then 3 yards.
I do like to run the target back to the wall to test myself too though.
This
I'm amazed how many people think they are good to go for some terd attacking them because they can hit a stationary target at 15 yards that is not shooting back.
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Go take an honest to goodness defensive pistol class or tactical pistol class and see how applicable being slow fire shooting for groups at 25 yards is. I'd say they know something you don't know.
The correlation to 7 yards is it's 21 feet. Once upon a time the FBI decided that an attacked intent on doing harm to an agent could do so if they were within 21 feet. That meant an agent would require 21 or more feet of distance between themselves and the attacker in order to draw, unsafe and fire their weapon before the bad guy could travel that distance and stick a knife in them.
Concealed carry and pistol shooting applications occur at very close ranges. Anywhere from powder burn close to a maximum of 15-20 feet typically. They're up close and in your face as opposed to a William Tell apple off the top of a head shot.
Precision shooting at distance is great for hunters and organized match shooting that specialize in it. I'll shoot a .44 Magnum at a deer out to 50 yards and more in some cases. If I'm shooting at a person outside of 15 yards I'd use a carbine.
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If I'm shooting at a person outside of 15 yards I'd use a carbine.
I'm sure you can find lawyers who will tell you that, as a private citizen, using deadly force beyond that 7 yard range opens you up to "was it justified" questions in some situations.
I believe in practicing for the situation you expect, as much as is possible from a practical standpoint. Muscle memory, site picture. It's all extremely important when it comes to a life or death adrenaline charged moment in time.
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People shoot for different reasons and train in different ways.
Don't hate, be glad there are others out there shooting. :aok
P.S. Loving the multiple firearms threads going on.
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I'm sure you can find lawyers who will tell you that, as a private citizen, using deadly force beyond that 7 yard range opens you up to "was it justified" questions in some situations.
I believe in practicing for the situation you expect, as much as is possible from a practical standpoint. Muscle memory, site picture. It's all extremely important when it comes to a life or death adrenaline charged moment in time.
It has nothing to do with being justified or not since it's hypothetical. I'm saying if I know an engagement will take place at 25 yards I'm not bringing a pistol. What I'm saying has no bearing on when, why or how to employ a concealed carry pistol, just a matter of practicality given a set of circumstances.
If you're farther than 25 yards, bring a carbine. That goes for hogs as much as it does for Zombies.
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It has nothing to do with being justified or not since it's hypothetical. I'm saying if I know an engagement will take place at 25 yards I'm not bringing a pistol. What I'm saying has no bearing on when, why or how to employ a concealed carry pistol, just a matter of practicality given a set of circumstances.
If you're farther than 25 yards, bring a carbine. That goes for hogs as much as it does for Zombies.
ugggh, hogs,I love how the 1st few shots just make them mad
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That goes for hogs as much as it does for Zombies.
Well, for Zombies, I have a 12 guage SxS Coach Gun! :D
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Davis_Andrews/IMG_2900.jpg)
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You guys make me laugh, really. I knew, absolutely knew there would be some "tactical range heros" here to defend shooting at knife range. Got rail guns with lights and lazers hanging all over them too?
I know the current mindset is to shoot up close when running tactical drills. Practice to be mediocre. You can run the same drills at 15 yards, running mag changes, point and shoot, but actually be able to learn to shoot and hit something would seem to serve more than just speed of draw and reload. I used to shoot at an outdoor range that at one time allowed the local police to shoot there, doing their drills. They had to stop that, as the police couldn't keep the rounds on the range, kept shooting off range and hitting structures downrange of the facility.
Yeah, learn to shoot fast and not hit crap that isn't close enough to spit on. Not my idea of good gun control and handling, but makes the "tacticool" feel badass I guess.
My opinion and I am welcome to it.
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Well, for Zombies, I have a 12 guage SxS Coach Gun! :D
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Davis_Andrews/IMG_2900.jpg)
Nice choice for home defense for sure. A short barrel 12 gauge is absolutely the smart choice, in double, pump or a good auto. :aok
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ugggh, hogs,I love how the 1st few shots just make them mad
Upgrading to .30 caliber helped in my case :). My first time hog hunting a few years ago didn't go well with a .223 and what amounted to varmint ammunition.
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If i had a pistol it would be for home defense and going out to the range with my buddies to shoot off some rounds down range for some friendly competition. if i was looking to practice my self defense i would damn right shoot close. the furthest i would ever have to shoot in my home would be no more then 10 yards (not that i would ever have to, crimes are few and far between in my community). and i wouldnt shoot to maim, if your in my house im gonna shoot to defend myself :devil
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You guys make me laugh, really. I knew, absolutely knew there would be some "tactical range heros" here to defend shooting at knife range. Got rail guns with lights and lazers hanging all over them too?
I know the current mindset is to shoot up close when running tactical drills. Practice to be mediocre. You can run the same drills at 15 yards, running mag changes, point and shoot, but actually be able to learn to shoot and hit something would seem to serve more than just speed of draw and reload. I used to shoot at an outdoor range that at one time allowed the local police to shoot there, doing their drills. They had to stop that, as the police couldn't keep the rounds on the range, kept shooting off range and hitting structures downrange of the facility.
Yeah, learn to shoot fast and not hit crap that isn't close enough to spit on. Not my idea of good gun control and handling, but makes the "tacticool" feel badass I guess.
My opinion and I am welcome to it.
Well if you're going to go out of your way to make a blanket statement people are stupid for engaging at close range then I'll make a point to say they're not. Being able to hit a target at distance does not translate into having the skills to perform well up close. That's your misconception and while it may be logical it is most definitely not true especially in a high stress situation. What will save your bellybutton is basic motor skills, muscle memory and lots and lots of repetition. There is no substitute for actually putting rounds through the gun at any distance and when you're talking about very close ranges where you may well not have an opportunity to aim that's fine.
I can say that you can take guys who are great bench shooters and they will not perform as well in the woods against moving game. This is with delicious animals as targets that aren't firing back. They're looking for an X ring when a kill shot will do and will delay taking a good shot in the name of a great shot. When you let 20 hogs run by you without firing a single round because you couldn't get a proper aim on one, something's wrong.
Yes to the weapon lights, no to the lasers on my carbines and rifles which I'm sure you're referring to. Crimson Trace grips do reside on my carry guns with the exception of a Sig P238. I do have night vision optics and night vision capable sights for the carbines and rifles. Weapon lights have their place on weapons when you might engage in an environment which is often referred to as "darkness." Being able to illuminate what you're going to be shooting at with 100-250 lumens really helps you in that respect not only with the fact you'll see what you're shooting at but you may realize you're not going to need to shoot at all.
But you're right, you're entitled to your opinion. Have at it, ace.
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I don't have any lights or lasers mounted on any of my weapons. I do keep a tactical flashlight with my home defense pistol, and I occaisionally practice with it.
I don't carry concealed, at least that's my story. I live in Illinois, where the politicians insist that I don't deserve the right to defend myself or my family outside of my own home. We're the last state not to have some form of concealed carry, yet...
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I can tell he is on parolee :)
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The Marine Corps pistol course of fire includes 7, 15, and 25 yards. You want to tell them that the 7 yard line is a waste of time Dago?
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Did my first IDPA shoot about 2 weeks ago. Very different when you add some stress to the situation. I saw an excellent shooter who can hit the target at 15-25 yards put a round outside the 8-inch circle at about 3 yards.
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Upgrading to .30 caliber helped in my case :). My first time hog hunting a few years ago didn't go well with a .223 and what amounted to varmint ammunition.
my same mistake:.223= pissed off hog
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This
I'm amazed how many people think they are good to go for some terd attacking them because they can hit a stationary target at 15 yards that is not shooting back.
Add to that the number that are closing one eye to aim and slow firing -- that's realistic in a defensive scenario. :rolleyes:
There's a big difference between target shooting, which is fun, and shooting for self-defense, which is what I want to do well without thinking about it.
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Well if you're going to go out of your way to make a blanket statement people are stupid for engaging at close range then I'll make a point to say they're not. Being able to hit a target at distance does not translate into having the skills to perform well up close. That's your misconception and while it may be logical it is most definitely not true especially in a high stress situation. What will save your bellybutton is basic motor skills, muscle memory and lots and lots of repetition. There is no substitute for actually putting rounds through the gun at any distance and when you're talking about very close ranges where you may well not have an opportunity to aim that's fine.
I can say that you can take guys who are great bench shooters and they will not perform as well in the woods against moving game. This is with delicious animals as targets that aren't firing back. They're looking for an X ring when a kill shot will do and will delay taking a good shot in the name of a great shot. When you let 20 hogs run by you without firing a single round because you couldn't get a proper aim on one, something's wrong.
Yes to the weapon lights, no to the lasers on my carbines and rifles which I'm sure you're referring to. Crimson Trace grips do reside on my carry guns with the exception of a Sig P238. I do have night vision optics and night vision capable sights for the carbines and rifles. Weapon lights have their place on weapons when you might engage in an environment which is often referred to as "darkness." Being able to illuminate what you're going to be shooting at with 100-250 lumens really helps you in that respect not only with the fact you'll see what you're shooting at but you may realize you're not going to need to shoot at all.
But you're right, you're entitled to your opinion. Have at it, ace.
Thanks for fulfilling the stereotype Rambo.
Read your magazines, and now you are prepared for the apocalypse. Have a holster with straps for you leg too? :rofl
Funny, I do know some guys who have "been there done that". I know how they practice. I doubt you are in their league.
And, if you are going to allude to my statements, get it right, a right seater should.
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The Marine Corps pistol course of fire includes 7, 15, and 25 yards. You want to tell them that the 7 yard line is a waste of time Dago?
What? They do 15 yards and 25 yards???? How dare they, don't they know all bad guys aren't a threat until they are at 7 yards, and only at 7 yards?
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What? They do 15 yards and 25 yards???? How dare they, don't they know all bad guys aren't a threat until they are at 7 yards, and only at 7 yards?
So you know that these guys at the range never shoot past 7 yards. The fact that you saw them shooting once at a shorter distance means they have never ever in their life fired from a longer distance than that very moment you saw them.
Chill dude, you're on a rampage against these "tacticool" wanna be rambo people when no one in this thread has shown me anything that they are those kind of people. Go take it out on some kids playing airsoft or something.
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I used to shoot at an outdoor range that at one time allowed the local police to shoot there, doing their drills. They had to stop that, as the police couldn't keep the rounds on the range, kept shooting off range and hitting structures downrange of the facility
I believed this, or variations of it, for the first 50 or so times I heard it. But now not so much, "actually not at all". All thats missing in your post are implications of your own vast skills, that far exceed those of any "cop". Or maybe you got around to it, and since I didnt bother reading the entire silly thread, missed it.
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Lasers are for acquiring guns from newly blind opponents.
I suggest 1 watt.
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Thanks for fulfilling the stereotype Rambo.
Read your magazines, and now you are prepared for the apocalypse. Have a holster with straps for you leg too? :rofl
Funny, I do know some guys who have "been there done that". I know how they practice. I doubt you are in their league.
And, if you are going to allude to my statements, get it right, a right seater should.
You've really misread something, made some baseless assumptions or you're a...oh right, you're you.
Form follows function and my 3 gun setup is a chest rig with several options for magazine and sidearm placement if you really want to know. Some days a drop leg holster is best, other days a chest mounted setup is best depending on the course of fire. Either way it's an efficient setup to have my carbine and pistol magazines handy as well as shotgun rounds or loaders. It's not a matter of being ready for an apocalypse or some of the wackadoos on gun websites preparing for Armageddon. It's what's practical.
I've been through a few pistol, carbine and rifle classes. Each have their different techniques and points of emphasis and while they're not all good for all situations it's nice to have varied backgrounds and experiences with the instructors as well as the students. Each of them I felt I came out better for it because I learned something and with enough instruction experience my way isn't the only way. Different isn't worse (it's not always better either) just because it's different.
Nobody said a threat isn't a threat until 7 yards either. You're being a dick and you know it. You can engage with pistols out to 100 yards if you want but that doesn't make them the best tool for the job. I'd contend it's good experience to shoot pistols out to as far as you can practically shoot because its both fun and informative. Would I shoot at somebody with a pistol at 30 yards if I have carbine? Not if I had ammunition for the carbine.
It's great and makes sense to shoot at 25 yards with a pistol. If you're at a range on a weekend where folks who don't shoot regularly are getting a chance to put their precious few rounds down range because they don't train often for whatever reason, then I'd push them to train like they might fight. That's up close. Taking careful aim and hitting your target at 25 yards is super duper but it's not what they'd be likely to encounter in a concealed carry defense situation so it's not exactly an efficient use of time or ammunition.
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IMO it pays to train at all ranges, from zero to 50+ with a handgun. In reality, the most important thing with handgun training is usually the one LEAST covered by most schools, and that's the AWP - access withdraw and present to target. Getting your hand on hit, getting it out, and getting it up on target - at the varying ranges you'll be engaging a target at with your pistol, hitting it shouldn't be as big a concern as getting yourself and your weapon into the position to hit it.
I also caught a few bits of people discussing weapon mounted lights in this thread - I took a few courses from surefire, and got my instructors certs for low light level shooting from their school of thought, but even then I like DAGO have my own personal opinions, which include that the light should never be mounted on a short(pistol) as it takes away SO many options you have for your light when in a space that requires a pistol to be used. Example: how can you use the best trick in the book, which is shinning your light on the roof indoors in a room, which A: lights up the entire room from the light reflecting of the light colored roof/walls instead of just a small focused spot and b: move the light source off axis out of plane from your body and weapon. This flies in the face of all the big "light" companies training courses, somewhat due to the fact that they want to SELL weapon mounted lights/lasers like the M3x M6x etc, but I think my way is best for me and the people I TRAIN, so that's it. It's like Dago is saying his way is what he thinks is best, and it's how he'll train. It may be different than currently accepted systems from all the big companies, it may not, but he'll train that way and improve continually till he stops.
Also, even though I don't completely agree with what Dago has said regarding longer range training, I will say that the years I spent shooting PPC revolver at 50 yard targets long before I ever got into "tactical" shooting and training, and then working with those skills operationally, that having shot SO MUCH at longer ranges than currently taught and focused on that I had a huge advantage at closer range as I was trained and familiar with shooting at longer more difficult ranges for the most part. So in some sort of degree, what he is saying is probably correct; at least it is for me.
As a side note, I personally feel that a lot more would be gained on shooting courses by learning to shoot through live barriers like out of vehicles through the windows open AND closed, and from non standard positions (again, fighting while seated in a vehicle or from supine positions etc) than from training to shoot at 5-7 yards. The very first drill I do for every day of pistol shooting is dry fire at 0 yards at a spot on a wall, then some quick object drills vs targets at 5-7, and THEN begin training with the most realistic tools to hand, like old vehicles and built up corners.
A spin on what Dago was saying for me is that I ALWAYS see guys, at home and in Afghanistan working on their speed drills, whether it's accessing their pistol, failure to fire drills/reloads/transitions what have you. The problem is they are ALWAYS doing it at targets that are 5-7 yards away. The day I see somebody do a failure drill then shoot a target at 50 yards once his pistol is back up I think I'll faint.
In closing, I'll say that the absolute BEST way to solve arguments and differences about what works best is to break out the simmuntion and fight it out. Having some guy who can only punch nice neat holes at 25m go up against me at 7 meters when I can draw and fire in under the time it gets him to even get his hand on his weapon will shut his bellybutton up forever, and the opposite is true, going up against billy the kid reborn at 30 meters can be great for some laughs as you shoot him in the face consistently as he misses you with wild too-rapid-for-accuracy draws and shots.
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You guys are cracking me up.
1) Basically said I did okay, and was happy with how I did.
2) I find it ridiculous that everyone at the pistol range was shooting at 7 yards. squealing stupid that they don't ever roll the target out to any distance. They aren't all cops or spec ops guys.
3) I think too many are training at short ranges when most training can be done at home, running draw and reload drills with an empty weapon, and that time will serve them better than wasting ammo without really learning to aim.
4) This forum has gotten boring as heck, with kids talking about their comic books. I saw 7 yards mentioned in another thread, and knew that I could stir guys up with a thread about that issue. It worked. I have had fun, like the old days, stirring it up.
Oh yeah, the funny this was, I was shooting better at 15 and 25 yards than most of the fools were doing slow firing at 7 yards, and none of them were running anything that looked even close to drills. Not that I am any great shot, I'm not, they just suck. Seems they never learned to aim and really use a handgun. But dang, they looked all badass for sure. Bet they took the targets home to impress that wife/girlfriend, as some from here have probably done.
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3) I think too many are training at short ranges when most training can be done at home, running draw and reload drills with an empty weapon, and that time will serve them better than wasting ammo without really learning to aim.
75% of more of any pistol practice can and SHOULD be done dry-firing or dummy rounds. You can train your fire control/trigger finger very inexpensively, you're right.
Also, I'm not sure if it was Dago or another slagging thigh rig holsters. Every Movie/TV show has tards running around using these rigs. They are even more than common in the real world. Nobody I know uses them for one reason - when you're running, it's almost impossible to draw from a holster that is moving with your leg...go ahead and try it if you have a leg rig, try and run without slowing or almost stopping and get by your retention system and draw. Thigh rig is sort of ok for dodads that you don't need to get to quickly, like detachable suppressors and the like, but I still can't stand them, and think they are beyond useless.
This whole "7 yards 21 feet" thing is what gun magazine writers like Mossad Aboob talk about when they start jabbering about knife fighting , always good for laughs no matter which direction they subject goes. Everybody is convinced that at 7 yards, and 7 yards only, a knife fighter will kill a firearm equipped opponent every time as though it's some rule set in stone by the gods.
Also, I find most people who talk about kicking bellybutton on the range usually aren't even gripping their weapon properly, which isn't their fault if they haven't had an formal training and just had Pa teach em the ropes. Horrific muzzle control, fingers on triggers when they shouldn't be, sweeping other people with their muzzles...I see it all from self styled experts who've been "shootin fer years, gots me 20,000 rounds a year downrange uh huh".
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I like the challenge of shooting pistols at 25 yards... Trigger control, sight picture, steady, two-handed grip.
Even old revolvers can be very accurate, especially shooting precision hand-loads.
My Uberti Remington 1875 is deadly accurate...
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff480/Tredlite/Remington1875_45Colt.jpg?t=1312244381)
Even better, my Rossi .357 Magnum revolver prints exceptional groups. Yeah, I like revolvers...
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff480/Tredlite/Rossi-357mag.jpg?t=1312244699)
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75% of more of any pistol practice can and SHOULD be done dry-firing or dummy rounds. You can train your fire control/trigger finger very inexpensively, you're right.
Also, I'm not sure if it was Dago or another slagging thigh rig holsters. Every Movie/TV show has tards running around using these rigs. They are even more than common in the real world. Nobody I know uses them for one reason - when you're running, it's almost impossible to draw from a holster that is moving with your leg...go ahead and try it if you have a leg rig, try and run without slowing or almost stopping and get by your retention system and draw. Thigh rig is sort of ok for dodads that you don't need to get to quickly, like detachable suppressors and the like, but I still can't stand them, and think they are beyond useless.
This whole "7 yards 21 feet" thing is what gun magazine writers like Mossad Aboob talk about when they start jabbering about knife fighting , always good for laughs no matter which direction they subject goes. Everybody is convinced that at 7 yards, and 7 yards only, a knife fighter will kill a firearm equipped opponent every time as though it's some rule set in stone by the gods.
Also, I find most people who talk about kicking bellybutton on the range usually aren't even gripping their weapon properly, which isn't their fault if they haven't had an formal training and just had Pa teach em the ropes. Horrific muzzle control, fingers on triggers when they shouldn't be, sweeping other people with their muzzles...I see it all from self styled experts who've been "shootin fer years, gots me 20,000 rounds a year downrange uh huh".
:aok Glad someone had something to offer that shows sense and experience. Yes, you caught my drift about the thigh strapping rig. A chest mount when geared up works better, and a good belt holster doesn't need a lower strap when worn on the right belt, whether IWB or out.
I also believe that with the average range hero, he/she could not draw and bring the weapon into action before someone at 7 yards or closer could close the distance, no matter how dang good they are at shooting a huge silhouette at 7 yards.
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I like the challenge of shooting pistols at 25 yards... Trigger control, sight picture, steady, two-handed grip.
Even old revolvers can be very accurate, especially shooting precision hand-loads.
My Uberti Remington 1875 is deadly accurate...
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff480/Tredlite/Remington1875_45Colt.jpg?t=1312244381)
Even better, my Rossi .357 Magnum revolver prints exceptional groups. Yeah, I like revolvers...
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff480/Tredlite/Rossi-357mag.jpg?t=1312244699)
Dang nice shooting, glad someone realizes a handgun can be fired past 7 yards, and learning to do it at 25 yards that well means you have practiced.
Now, about the guys who say they will be taking a "carbine" to a 25 yard gunfight, I just wonder how you get a bad guy to schedule the date, time and distance so you know when to take your "carbine" with you? :rofl
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75% of more of any pistol practice can and SHOULD be done dry-firing or dummy rounds. You can train your fire control/trigger finger very inexpensively, you're right.
Excellent advice! I load Lyman .38 Special Snap Caps into my .357 Rossi and practice, practice and practice some more. Practice trigger control, practice point shooting, practice getting out of the holster clean and quick and practice reloading... These are perishable skills....
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Excellent advice! I load Lyman .38 Special Snap Caps into my .357 Rossi and practice, practice and practice some more. Practice trigger control, practice point shooting, practice getting out of the holster clean and quick and practice reloading... These are perishable skills....
Yup, exactly, if someone actually wants to CCW and not have it be a liability, they have to do just as you say. Snap caps are good for practice.
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Also, I'm not sure if it was Dago or another slagging thigh rig holsters. Every Movie/TV show has tards running around using these rigs. They are even more than common in the real world. Nobody I know uses them for one reason - when you're running, it's almost impossible to draw from a holster that is moving with your leg...go ahead and try it if you have a leg rig, try and run without slowing or almost stopping and get by your retention system and draw. Thigh rig is sort of ok for dodads that you don't need to get to quickly, like detachable suppressors and the like, but I still can't stand them, and think they are beyond useless.
I've rarely seen thigh rigs at the ranges here, but lots of cops are using them. It seems that there's been a big shift to thigh rigs and BDU pants with many local police.
Interestingly though, I had a couple of deputies at my house a few weeks ago to ask about a neighbor, and one of them had his pistol in a chest mount on his vest. I noticed his vest also had SWAT written on it, so I'm guessing that carried over from whatever service he was in.
The only person I know with a thigh rig only uses it when he goes hunting, and it's just for convenience.
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I've never liked thigh rigs, for reasons already discussed. You just can't run and access your weapon at the same time. Also, from the training I have had, drawing from a belt or paddle holster leads better to a nice tight high ready position before presenting to target.
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Practice at any range you want, just make sure you practice at multiple ranges and from a multitude of firing positions using both hands to fire with. Your "off" hand is just as important as your "strong" hand. Practice with both.
Know your pistol. You know capability. Know that you are mortal. All the range time in the world does zilch once you get into a combat situation. Using simunitions taught me a lot about how people react under stress. One of the best shooters in the sheriff's office where I was could hit jack once the stress level went up a notch or two.
Most of the chest thumpers are the one who cower when the lead flies. That isnt a slam, it is natural and it it an instinct that needs to be unlearned because sometimes the best defense is going on offense (be the hunter not the hunted). But I always got a kick out of big-tough commando types who dove for cover while I was moving forward returning fire in our "active shooter" training, etc.
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My point all along has been I'm not going to knock someone for shooting at 7 yards and I'm certainly not going to discredit it as meaningful training especially if the alternative is none. There IS value to firing at close range just as there is value at firing at longer ranges. I would put more value on failure to stop drills, loading drills, weapon failure drills and the simple mechanics of drawing and coming ready with your weapon with your target hanging 7 yards away than taking carefully aimed shots at 25 yards. No doubt about it.
You're trying too hard, Dago. There really isn't much in the way a day to day CCW permit holder will encounter where taking longer shots and the time spent practicing them will benefit them more than running failure drills up close. You're not going to be engaging targets at 25 yards away and that's the point I'm making. You know that. If your average citizen only has X amount of time and rounds to practice I'd rather see that time and those rounds spent doing them good for what they might encounter and teaching them habits that will serve them when they come under that stress. I stand by the statement of if you know you're going to be shooting at someone or something at ranges in excess of25 yards then a pistol is the wrong primary weapon.
Is there a benefit to shooting longer ranges with pistols? Absolutely. Is there a benefit to shooting accurately at longer ranges? Absolutely. Do the benefits of shooting at long range outweigh the benefits of the average citizen shooting up close which is where they're most likely to engage a threat during the course of their life as a concealed carry permit holder? Certainly not enough to come on a cartoon airplane board and ridicule them for it.
So day to day I carry my pistols be they .45, .380, 9mm or .40 on a particular day. When the time comes to shoot hogs out come the rifles. When the time comes to shoot at zombies, out come the rifles and carbines. When the time comes to roll in the dirt and shoot steel, paper and cardboard against the clock it's shotguns, rifles and pistols.
It's a whole different ball game when someone is shooting under stress and I can't emphasize that enough. Shooting against the clock, running and regular pressure from competition is one thing. Shooting when your life is on the line or you're being shot at are completely different. I like to think I'm going to benefit from tactical pistol classes if (insert spiritual being here, forbid) it happens to me. Much more so than trying to spend my time trying to draw on bead on someone where my "discipline" has taught me not to fire until I have thoroughly aimed/delayed/died.
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My point all along has been I'm not going to knock someone for shooting at 7 yards and I'm certainly not going to discredit it as meaningful training especially if the alternative is none. There IS value to firing at close range just as there is value at firing at longer ranges. I would put more value on failure to stop drills, loading drills, weapon failure drills and the simple mechanics of drawing and coming ready with your weapon with your target hanging 7 yards away than taking carefully aimed shots at 25 yards. No doubt about it.
You're trying too hard, Dago. There really isn't much in the way a day to day CCW permit holder will encounter where taking longer shots and the time spent practicing them will benefit them more than running failure drills up close. You're not going to be engaging targets at 25 yards away and that's the point I'm making. You know that. If your average citizen only has X amount of time and rounds to practice I'd rather see that time and those rounds spent doing them good for what they might encounter and teaching them habits that will serve them when they come under that stress. I stand by the statement of if you know you're going to be shooting at someone or something at ranges in excess of25 yards then a pistol is the wrong primary weapon.
Is there a benefit to shooting longer ranges with pistols? Absolutely. Is there a benefit to shooting accurately at longer ranges? Absolutely. Do the benefits of shooting at long range outweigh the benefits of the average citizen shooting up close which is where they're most likely to engage a threat during the course of their life as a concealed carry permit holder? Certainly not enough to come on a cartoon airplane board and ridicule them for it.
So day to day I carry my pistols be they .45, .380, 9mm or .40 on a particular day. When the time comes to shoot hogs out come the rifles. When the time comes to shoot at zombies, out come the rifles and carbines. When the time comes to roll in the dirt and shoot steel, paper and cardboard against the clock it's shotguns, rifles and pistols.
It's a whole different ball game when someone is shooting under stress and I can't emphasize that enough. Shooting against the clock, running and regular pressure from competition is one thing. Shooting when your life is on the line or you're being shot at are completely different. I like to think I'm going to benefit from tactical pistol classes if (insert spiritual being here, forbid) it happens to me. Much more so than trying to spend my time trying to draw on bead on someone where my "discipline" has taught me not to fire until I have thoroughly aimed/delayed/died.
Well said.
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Agree with everything posted on this page.
Widewing had the best 'word' so far though - perishable. All weapons skills are VERY perishable ones, and like a sword that needs a wetstone regularly, they ability to fly small bits of lead and steel through targets can only be maintained by consistent, regular, and repetitive practice.
Bank Miller was one of my first instructors for dedicated pistol training about 13 years ago (Bank ran the FBI's weapons training program for years prior to designing and maintaining the Air Marshall pistol program). He told me that in his opinion from long experience, after the human mind and body combine to do a task with a handgun 20 thousand times, it will then begin the process of becoming "muscle memory" for lack of a better term. 20,000 rounds of pistol ammo is expensive for average and even non-average Joe, so doing dry fire and dry run drills repeatedly and consistently can speed a shooter along to this blissful place of "not thinking about it".
Widewing, I shoot at playing cards with my single action handguns as well! I laughed when I saw those pics. It makes me feel old-westish, without having to wear a cowboy hat or get all cowboy action shooter'd up. My old shop was the Canadian distributor for all things Uberti for a while; absolutely love their single action revolvers, although I do enjoy the Ruger's as well, and they are both great values for the money. If I ever have kids, although it's getting late in the game for that, their first pistol will be a good single action .22 cowboy style revolver.
I also again can't stress the value of simmunition/air munition training as well. The added pressure of shooting/drills vs a clock with spectators is multiplied be the square function when you start involving a small bit of stinging pain and proof of your failure while being observed by your counterparts :) . If you ever get the chance to train with it, TAKE it, and if you don't, try and make it happen. You won't be sorry, it's truly one of my favorite parts of any shooting course if it's part of the syllabus. Also, if you get a chance to train on how to engage threats through vehicle and other windows, do the same. There are very specific techniques to shooting through a window when you're close to it, and they are not only very practical, but a blast. Holding your pistol's slide to the front while shooting a single round then manually cycling your weapon to reload isn't a skill that ANYONE will just pick up along the way - it requires training. But does it ever work well. It'll blast the passenger side window you're sitting beside into a zillion fragments when the muzzle is just barely touching it, and the full force of the explosion that is throwing the bullet is put into the glass by holding the pistol's slide ahead....try it if you get a chance, even against a cardboard IDPA target, and you'll see why it is so effective in removing the barrier you need to fire through.
Ah...there is always so much more to learn...I've found they more I've learned that I find out about even more things I need to train on. If any of you get the chance to view Magpul's video's on pistol and carbine shooting, please do so. While I don't agree with everything they push, I personally agree with most, and both their instructors acknowledge this and even praise it, which while not totally rare in the tactical shooting world, is at least appreciated for such a commercial venture these DVD's are in the shooting world. I 've trained with one of the instructors from Magpul in the past and IMO he is very VERY good at passing his knowledge onto others, as well as being very capable at what he does. If anybody is interested at giving any of the DVD's a look, fire a PM at me and I can lend you mine as well as some of the stuff we used at SigArms Academy. While there is no substitute for being on the range, I've found videos to be the "dry fire" version of an actual course, and not without value.
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(http://i54.tinypic.com/33xymwl.jpg)
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Practice at any range you want, just make sure you practice at multiple ranges and from a multitude of firing positions using both hands to fire with. Your "off" hand is just as important as your "strong" hand. Practice with both.
Know your pistol. You know capability. Know that you are mortal. All the range time in the world does zilch once you get into a combat situation. Using simunitions taught me a lot about how people react under stress. One of the best shooters in the sheriff's office where I was could hit jack once the stress level went up a notch or two.
Most of the chest thumpers are the one who cower when the lead flies. That isnt a slam, it is natural and it it an instinct that needs to be unlearned because sometimes the best defense is going on offense (be the hunter not the hunted). But I always got a kick out of big-tough commando types who dove for cover while I was moving forward returning fire in our "active shooter" training, etc.
Well said as well.
It's not so much an issue now as it once was, but training off hand stoppage/reload/etc drills weren't stressed nearly as much as they should have been. Even reaching your spare magazines with your off hand with your armor and load bearing equipment is a challenge, especially if you aren't in good shape (the fatter you get, the harder it is to reach around your belly, go figure). They're very awkward and uncommon positions you need to use, not to mention shooting with your off hand is likely going to occur after you've either been shot or stuck in a bit of cover that is somewhat less than ideal. But Loon is right, extremely important skills to develop and keep improving on. Racking your slide off your belt/holster/bootheel and holding your weapon between your knees inverted are invaluable things to know and be able to put into practice. Heck, even learning HOW to transition your weapon from strong side to weak is a skill-set all its own.
Also, Loon your bit about best defence being a quick offense reminded me of the first courses in my past about ambush/counter ambush, and how the safest you'll be is to rush forward OFF THE X of the ambush, which is contrary to every humans instinct when being fired upon, but after doing it umpteem times in training, one finds out it's correct.
Good thread so far, quite enjoyed it, keep it up you all.
P.S. Somebody pray and tell Jesus in the above picture that he's breaking one of the cardinal rules by having his finger on the trigger.
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Must tell old story from my dad, stationed in germany late 45-46 as photographer, signal corps, prior to service in Marines in Korea...
Local germans not allowed fire-arms, many farmers had problems with feral hogs tearing up crops..so 'hunting trips' were set up w/GI's...took 4x to someplace well outside Nurnberg, was given M2 carbine(yep, full auto w/tiny 15 rd mag).
Had some kind of 'beater' with dogs chasing hogs down lane toward my 18 yo dad..when that 'big, ugly sonfa... came outta the brush headed my way I flipped it on full auto and BLIP....'not sure how much of meat was left..he was only interested in gettin back to the house they where posted in...
Back to topic at hand.
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So while we're talking guns, I'll throw a question out there.
Any tips for someone looking at getting into reloading? I've been looking into it for a couple months but it's still quite overwhelming. Read some stuff online, and read through "The ABC's Of Reloading" by Bill Chevalier. Start-up cost keeps adding up, not sure it's really worth it.
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I have been a cop for 4 years now. We have to qualify shooting at 25yd targets while progressively moving in closer all the way to 2 yards. There are certain drills set up at the diff stations. At our 7 yard station we fire the bulk of our ammo. I remember in the academy our instructor was very very firm on us training at 7- yards the most. The reason is b/c most cop involved shootings take place at short distances. I know you think that it would be almost impossible to miss at 7 yards. I have a question for you though sir. Have you ran a true stress course and fired at 7 yards. You may not miss but I can almost guarantee your grouping is going to be scattered alto more then just a regular day at the range. I do want to make sure that you noticed that we do shoot at 25 yards, but most of the course is in much shorter distances. Also lets remember that training doesn't stop at just being able to fire and hit your target. Being able to hit your target doesn't mean jack if you can't even unholster your weapon. DON"T forget to use your offhand also. We have to fire from kneeling postions and I remember from laying on our back to. There is more then just being able to hit a target lets not forget that.
I didn't see who said it but they were right on train at whatever distance you want just make sure to keep training is all that matters. For when you stop training you are just doing an injustice to yourself.
One of our instructors had a saying Keep these walls bare. Not getting into the whole meaning but in loose translation is only bad things can happen if you stop training.
P.S. as for the thigh holsters I will never carry one while on duty.
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You guys make me laugh, really. I knew, absolutely knew there would be some "tactical range heros" here to defend shooting at knife range. Got rail guns with lights and lazers hanging all over them too?
I know the current mindset is to shoot up close when running tactical drills. Practice to be mediocre. You can run the same drills at 15 yards, running mag changes, point and shoot, but actually be able to learn to shoot and hit something would seem to serve more than just speed of draw and reload. I used to shoot at an outdoor range that at one time allowed the local police to shoot there, doing their drills. They had to stop that, as the police couldn't keep the rounds on the range, kept shooting off range and hitting structures downrange of the facility.
Yeah, learn to shoot fast and not hit crap that isn't close enough to spit on. Not my idea of good gun control and handling, but makes the "tacticool" feel badass I guess.
My opinion and I am welcome to it.
do you have a CHL sir? have you ever seen a class in progress? been to gunsite maybe? guess not from your above posts... thats fine but as stated above most of your fights WILL be at knife range I carry a Star .380 I wouldnt use past the range of a room, but to put 6 HP 380 rounds in a person somewhere that will make them change thier mind about whatever they were up to before wouldnt be that hard. which is were I intend for it to be used.
so you keep up your pistol sniping there Steven Seagal and the rest of mere mortals will stick to stayin alive.
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Bank Miller was one of my first instructors for dedicated pistol training about 13 years ago (Bank ran the FBI's weapons training program for years prior to designing and maintaining the Air Marshall pistol program). He told me that in his opinion from long experience, after the human mind and body combine to do a task with a handgun 20 thousand times, it will then begin the process of becoming "muscle memory" for lack of a better term. 20,000 rounds of pistol ammo is expensive for average and even non-average Joe, so doing dry fire and dry run drills repeatedly and consistently can speed a shooter along to this blissful place of "not thinking about it".
GMan, I know Bank Miller. He was chief instructor at SigArms academy up in Exeter, NH. I visited there two or three times in the late 1990s/early 2k to test prototype shot counters on the Sig 551. Very nice, smart guy. We took Bank and another instructor out for lunch. When we returned, Bank rolled out a cart with a case of frangible 5.56 ammo and we went to work.
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Glad you posted Gman, always like reading your take on things :aok
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Well, for Zombies, I have a 12 gauge SxS Coach Gun! :D
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Davis_Andrews/IMG_2900.jpg)
Very nice Dave!
Up here in Canukville they dont like us having guns and the restrictions involved with firearms are beyond ridiculous but I could jump through a few hoops and get something like that coachgun,well it would be a birdgun up here... :lol... even so it wouldnt be of much use as we must secure the firearm,unloaded with a triggerlock on in a vault.Ammo must be secured in a separate locked compartment,so by the time you could get it into action it would be too late.
So I rely on my sleddogs,they will welcome you into the house for a "bite" to eat!
:salute
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So while we're talking guns, I'll throw a question out there.
Any tips for someone looking at getting into reloading? I've been looking into it for a couple months but it's still quite overwhelming. Read some stuff online, and read through "The ABC's Of Reloading" by Bill Chevalier. Start-up cost keeps adding up, not sure it's really worth it.
It is worth it IF you take it seriously. You can reduce your costs by up to %75 in most cases. Right now, 5.56 NATO is being sold at 50 cents a round, I reload it for 15-18 cents a round. I reload 5.56 NATO, 9mm Luger, .303 British, .30-06, 7mm-08, .221 Fireball, 9mm, .45 ACP, .44 Special, .44 Mag, .38 S&W, .38 Special, and.... ... ... .22-250 (I knew I was forgetting 1).
Get some reloading manuals and start reading. Also, if you can watch it done a few times to help you get the hang of it I suggest you do so too.
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Ammo must be secured in a separate locked compartment,so by the time you could get it into action it would be too late.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but I had to respond to this.
Morfiend, check the regulations carefully - If your firearms are stored in what the CFC calls a 'vault or safe' (they've never published specifications as to what a vault or safe is), you CAN store your ammunition and firearms in this safe/vault together.
From the RCMP's Firearms website:
Storing Firearms Safely
Unload and lock your firearms!
Store the ammunition separately or lock it up. It can be stored in the same locked container as the firearm.
In my new house I have a dedicated room for all my firearms/ammunition etc. In one of my previous residences I had a decent Remington vault with the combo key pad on the front, and I stored my firearms in there as well as my ammunition/magazines. I know it's legal 100% as my roomate at the time was a firearms instructor with the RCMP at Depot at the time, and all his stuff was in there too.
Also, with regards to the time it takes to access a firearm for self defense in Canada:
Attach a secure locking device so the firearms cannot be fired and lock them in a cabinet, container or room that is hard to break into;OR
Lock the firearms in a vault, safe or room that was built or modified specifically to store firearms safely.
If you have your restricted firearms IE some "assault" type rifles and most handguns, you can store them in a safe/vault WITHOUT trigger locks, and WITH ammunition/magazines in the same said vault. So, if you own a safe/vault with a quick access electronic locking mech, you can have your pistols locked open and loaded magazines right beside them, and be in full compliance with our ridiculous "safe storage :lol " laws.
Overall you're right though Morfiend, the laws here are a joke, and created by people who knew NOTHING about firearms or shooting which explains their inconsistency and ineffectiveness.
-Hijack over.
BTW: WIDEWING, Bank Miller was at sigarms when I first met him as well, he, Tim Connell, and Ben Kurata from SigArms came up here to Canada to help establish our adjunct Sigarms school, and I took my Sig armourers and instructor courses from them about the same time you were mentioning, about the very early 2000's. Bank owns a company called action target, and is doing very well with it from what I understand. He's also one of the better shooters with stock "combat" pistols I've seen. I've seen him use a pistol with the sights pushed off it to shoot 6" steel falling plate targets at 25 yards like they were 2 feet in front of his face when demonstrating unsighted fire techniques. Regarding the Sig Rifles you mentioned, us crazy canucks at our shop/range had a friend in the factory in Europe and circumvented the assault weapon import laws you guys have down there by bringing in 1500 Sig 550 551 and 552 rifles/carbines into Canada. Then some of the receivers made it legally into the USA and "kit" forms of the rifles were then legal to possess and construct as I understand your laws (I'm a little hazy on how it all happened, but the ATF HATED us for a while as they had to alter some of their directives over all of this Sig rifle business). For a stock rifle the Sig 550 is still my personal favorite for an out of the box weapon. It combines all of the best features of several rifles out there, and adds excellent stock night sights and better than AK reliability, and incredible accuracy. The models we sell in Canada come equipped with the highest quality 3-point sling I've yet seen, a 200$ freebie that is as thick as the old M60 slings almost.
About the only negative thing I can say about the Sig rifles is that the magzines have to be inserted using that 'cam' type rolling system that the AK and all of its variants use, which is a little slower than the Ar15/M4 style of magazine, but they do make an adapter for the SIG rifles to take Ar15 magazines (Pmags!!) .
The test targets for ALL of our rifles were 1 MOA or better at 300 meters, even the short barrel 552's had 10 round groups of just over 1 moa, all on a paper plate easily....incredible when you think of how short the barrels are. If I could take only ONE rifle with me out of everything I have, it would be my Sig550 hands down.
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I always preferred the .12 gauge pump with #6 shot for home defense. Of course that makes clean up a little more involved.....
I understand both sides of this "7 Yards" arguement. For a tactical training aspect it is sound. I do believe Dago is speaking more along the lines of the guys at the range who were shooting at 7 yards probably left a shot grouping similiar to a .12 gauge at 30 yards.
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all this gun talk.........screw that just give me my Katana...or battle axe, and I am happy :old:
I am a dinosaur I know :rofl
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I understand both sides of this "7 Yards" arguement. For a tactical training aspect it is sound. I do believe Dago is speaking more along the lines of the guys at the range who were shooting at 7 yards probably left a shot grouping similiar to a .12 gauge at 30 yards.
Bottom line is that there's a case to be made both for pure marksmanship skills and tactical employment. In an ideal world, for those fractions of a percent that will ever need to use a weapon in real life, neither should suffer in a complete training regimen. That being said, for the weekend warrior who's just going out to shoot some stuff, enjoy the noise, and the smell of cordite, either skill set in isolation is absolutely acceptable. Its their weapon, their ammo, and their range time.
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Like I said and I'll debate anyone who says otherwise: be proficient at all ranges that you and your gun are able to shoot. Prone, I can put 5/5 shots from my Sig 226 into the FBI qualifying targets (big bowling pin shape). We even trained at "too close for comfort" ranges: try grabbing the target stand with your off hand and firing from right above your holster.
and yes, the majority of the handgun engagements happen at less than 10 yards. Always aim center mass at whatever is exposed.
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Gman you are correct,I guess I didnt make myself clear but the point is it has to be unloaded and the ammo must be locked up sepperate!
all of which makes it senseless to even consider.
:salute
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I like our laws here in Texas. The debate still pops up about open carry every once in awhile but you still can't carry open.
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I like our laws here in Texas. The debate still pops up about open carry every once in awhile but you still can't carry open.
Florida is good too.
I'm on the fence regarding open carry. I think we should have the option, but like anything, there are going to be a fair share of people who probably have no idea what they're doing.
Personally, I'd like the law so you can't get in touble for printing or accidentally showing while carrying concealed.
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Yes in the summer it is harder to carry without a chance of printing or a flash.
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Pretty much the only interest I have left in training is in shooting/movement tactics. I have no interest in standing in shooting stalls and admireing my pretty groups be they 7 ot 50 yrds away. If I have to wait for an empty range and shoot far less then I'll do so. Drawing and moving front, back, side, to cover, to kneeling, my duty handguns, off duty handguns, and Patrol rifle. Movement and shooting/reloading from each hand/side in turn.
That standing at the shooting stall/admireing my pretty groups mindset has killed more good guys then jams. Its "plinking" and not "defensive training".
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I went out to the range today with my M39 (open sights) and set up 5 sporting clays on the 225 yard birm. I gave myself 5 shots per clay and I would move onto the next one. I busted 4 of em, (2 of them on the second shot, 1 on the third, and one on the 4th) but I just couldn't hit the target in the middle.
At 225 yards though, I can keel some zombies
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I can't even kill a clay at 60 feet with a shot gun :(
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I can't even kill a clay at 60 feet with a shot gun :(
:rofl :rofl
practice man, all it takes :aok