Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Wiley on August 03, 2011, 01:18:35 PM
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Hi guys. I was playing last night, and for some reason decided to up an M4 to defend one of our bases. Ordinarily to me a tank is the noisy metal box I sit in waiting to die, but last night I managed to find a slightly concealed hidey hole and kill a couple or three of them before someone came up behind me.
I'm not saying I'm interested in becoming the next desert fox, but with the search down I'm curious if there's some kind of resource that talks about the best way to kill different tanks, and more importantly the best defensive strategies with the different tanks? What I mean by defensive strategies is stuff like the best way to align the body of your tank to the expected incoming fire vector, and things of that nature? Offhand it seems to me the best way to set up is basically at a 45 degree angle front towards enemy. Is that correct or does it depend on what kind of tank I'm driving?
I'm pretty decent with trajectories so gunnery isn't much of an issue for me. I'm mostly curious about how to 'set up', and also general tactics. Is 'shoot a time or two, then relocate' kind of standard procedure? Or is it a better idea to hide far away and depend on them not having enough time to find my range before they get me?
I realize a lot of it is probably 'style', but I'm just looking for a couple opinions on best practices, I haven't really thought about tanking too much and I think I might want to take a slightly closer look at it.
Wiley.
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Take a look at this thread
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,269006.0.html
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Thanks, Dave. That's helpful for offense.
How about defense? I guess on some level you work backwards from 'how to kill a specific tank' and try not to give them that shot...
Wiley.
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Thanks, Dave. That's helpful for offense.
How about defense? I guess on some level you work backwards from 'how to kill a specific tank' and try not to give them that shot...
You need one of the dedicated tanker guys to chime in here. I couldn't tank my way out of a wet paper bag, to be honest. I just knew that that thread would be useful for you.
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M4(75): assume you'll die, alignment is irrelevant, you need to get behind the tanks to kill them
T-34/76: only aim at the panzers and M4(75)'s. Aim for the turret with both of these, use HVAP out to 1200yds.
Panzer IV: find somewhere you can shoot from a hull down possition. Makes you smaller and harder to spot. If under fire, move. Frontal turret armor is only 50mm.
T-34/85: park your tank at a slight angle from the enemy tanks
M4(76) same as T-34, turret is near indestructable at range.
Tiger I: place your tank at a slight angle to the enemy, hull down is good
Panther: find a hull down spot, you're lower nose is vulnerable from considerable distance.
Tiger II: front toward enemy
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M4(75): assume you'll die, alignment is irrelevant, you need to get behind the tanks to kill them
T-34/76: only aim at the panzers and M4(75)'s. Aim for the turret with both of these, use HVAP out to 1200yds.
Panzer IV: find somewhere you can shoot from a hull down possition. Makes you smaller and harder to spot. If under fire, move. Frontal turret armor is only 50mm.
T-34/85: park your tank at a slight angle from the enemy tanks
M4(76) same as T-34, turret is near indestructable at range.
Tiger I: place your tank at a slight angle to the enemy, hull down is good
Panther: find a hull down spot, you're lower nose is vulnerable from considerable distance.
Tiger II: front toward enemy
der Deutsch Claymore
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double post
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M4(75): assume you'll die, alignment is irrelevant, you need to get behind the tanks to kill them
T-34/76: only aim at the panzers and M4(75)'s. Aim for the turret with both of these, use HVAP out to 1200yds.
So this means outside 1200 yards, the gun is ineffective?
Panzer IV: find somewhere you can shoot from a hull down possition. Makes you smaller and harder to spot. If under fire, move. Frontal turret armor is only 50mm.
Pardon a basic question, 'hull down' means what, nose pointed down a slope?
Thanks for the info, this makes sense.
Wiley.
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Hull down = only turret is visable to the enemy
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cc/Hull_down_tank_diagram.png/640px-Hull_down_tank_diagram.png)
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So this means outside 1200 yards, the gun is ineffective?
What I think he mean is : past 1200Yds the High Velocity Armor Piercing(HVAP) round become ineffective because it lost too much energy. Use a High Explosive(HE) round at long range. They're not as effective at drilling holes in armor plates but their effectiveness is not tied to their velocity.
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What I think he mean is : past 1200Yds the High Velocity Armor Piercing(HVAP) round become ineffective because it lost too much energy. Use a High Explosive(HE) round at long range. They're not as effective at drilling holes in armor plates but their effectiveness is not tied to their velocity.
:huh
...so there are (very limited) situations where it's better to use HE on vehicles? Interesting.
I spent more time in a GV last night than I probably have in the last 6 months. It's not something I'm necessarily going to be in the mood for that often, but I did have more fun last night than I ever have in a GV before. The fact I had a plan and had some semblance of understanding what was going on helped a lot. <g>
Thanks for the description of hull down, Blooz. That was something I'd been doing anyways but I quite often get trapped up in the language for stuff I do in the air as well.
Wiley.
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No no no, thats completely false :furious. Puppetz, don't go trying to apply World of Tanks crap to Aces High.
What I mean is that past 1200yds, 'standard' AP rounds (actually they are APCBC, or Armor Piercing Capped, Balistic Capped) are more effective than HVAP (HVAP stands for High Velocity Armor Piercing. They're the same as APCR or Armor Piercing Composite Rigid)
Standard AP rounds are essentially just a big bullet. Face hardening of the armor plate was found to cause the rounds to shatter on impact. This led to APC rounds to be introuduced. It was a normal AP round, but with a cap of softer metal on the nose of the round to dampen the impact, and prevent the round from shattering. However, the caps were't the most aerodynamic, so they added a hollow nose to the cap that brought the APC rounds to the balistic standards of normal AP rounds. These became known as APCBC rounds.
An APCR or HVAP round is different though. It takes a small, sub-caliber dart, and surounds it with a lighter alloy, often aluminum. This makes the round lighter, which allows higher velocities to be achieved without using a larger propellant charge. However, the casing doesn't fall away like with APDS (Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot), so the rounds have the same overall dimensions as AP or APCBC rounds. Because they have less mass compared to their dimensions, they lose their effectivness faster, as they slow down at a faster rate than AP or APCBC rounds.
Kinetic energy translates to armor penetration, and KE = mass x velotciy squared / 2. Since velocity is squared, increasing velocity improves the preformance of a shell or bullet to a greater degree than increasing the mass of the projectile does. However, it also means that as velocity decreases, it also has a greater negative effect on the preformance of a shell.
All this means that, an HVAP shell will slow down faster than an AP round, and that lacking the extra mass compared to an APCBC shell, it won't penetrate as much armor as an AP shell, even when they are at the same velocity. As a result, HVAP shells will preform better than AP only out to a limited range (1200yds for the two HVAP shells we have in the game).
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Hi guys. I was playing last night, and for some reason decided to up an M4 to defend one of our bases. Ordinarily to me a tank is the noisy metal box I sit in waiting to die, but last night I managed to find a slightly concealed hidey hole and kill a couple or three of them before someone came up behind me.
I'm not saying I'm interested in becoming the next desert fox, but with the search down I'm curious if there's some kind of resource that talks about the best way to kill different tanks, and more importantly the best defensive strategies with the different tanks? What I mean by defensive strategies is stuff like the best way to align the body of your tank to the expected incoming fire vector, and things of that nature? Offhand it seems to me the best way to set up is basically at a 45 degree angle front towards enemy. Is that correct or does it depend on what kind of tank I'm driving?
I'm pretty decent with trajectories so gunnery isn't much of an issue for me. I'm mostly curious about how to 'set up', and also general tactics. Is 'shoot a time or two, then relocate' kind of standard procedure? Or is it a better idea to hide far away and depend on them not having enough time to find my range before they get me?
I realize a lot of it is probably 'style', but I'm just looking for a couple opinions on best practices, I haven't really thought about tanking too much and I think I might want to take a slightly closer look at it.
Wiley.
If you have time, let me know and I can take you in the Training Arena and show you a few things, I am usually on in the morning and nights est
send me a PM when you are available and will make some time <S>
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Ok. Sorry, my bad. Seems I was right about the HVAP loosing too much E at least....
What are HE round for then? Light armored vehicle?
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Is that a serious question, or are you just trolling :huh?
HE is high explosives. While they CAN be used on light armored vehicles, HTC has decided that, for whatever reason, HE rounds will bounce off of the lightly armored vehicles instead of exploding and damaging them (as represented by a hitsprite)
Rule of thumb: its its got armor, use armor piercing.
High Explosive rounds are used for town buildings, AA and AT emplacments on bases, and field structures such as radar, ordnance bunkers, and fuel.
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It was a genuine question. And I don't think I deserved being called a troll because of that. It's the "help and training" forum after all....
Have nice day sir
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H.E. is great for vulching airplanes on the runway... :devil :bolt:
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Both tactics can be used depends on the other tanker more than anything else. Next is type of tank and its Armour. Your really fighting the person not the tank.... Example someone can take out a tiger and is easy to kill if your aggressive and hes a relatively poor shot. then you can get someone good in a panzer and they will tare you a new one most of the time.
So really you need all the tools in your tool bag and not get stuck with just one set of best defensive options. Some times the very best defence is (offensive) knowing when to turn your motor on move to the flank and be aggressive. then possibly move back to better defensive position. Knowing when to trade defensive position for an offensive one is critical.... when someone knows your dug in and you know there coming back for you.. moving behind them is like taking candy from a baby...
In real life dead men told no tales so defensive positions dont have as much potential as they possibly should.
The hull down is ok sometimes Some can sight with pintial gun and shoot from behind hills.. I have not tanked with the new settings much. so im sure some stuff has changed.
hope it helps.<S>
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Ok. Sorry, my bad. Seems I was right about the HVAP loosing too much E at least....
What are HE round for then? Light armored vehicle?
AP Rounds are Armored Piercing used against Tanks (Light to Heavy), HVAP is High Velocity Armored Piercing which is used up to roughly up to 1k or so for an added punch, For example a normal T34/85 AP round will not punch through a Tiger at 800, however a HVAP Will easily.
HE is High Explosive used to De-ack fields, take down buildings (Town or airfield etc) and sometimes can be used against tanks, now this is rarely done but at 200-400 yards you can punch a hole through an M4/T34 from the side or rear, I don't recommend attempting to because of the short range.
In normal defense of a base I would take all AP/HVAP rounds (depending the tank for example a M4(76) take all AP or T34/85 take the AP/HVAP.
On attacking a base (such as an Airfield) it really depends the load out you want, I for example generally take 40% Ap and 60% HE, it depends which tank you really take - for example an M4(75) has a very weak gun, but has a ton of ammo, you might want to take 90 HE while a squadie or friend takes an M4(76) with majority being AP.
Really comes down to strategy of how you want to employ your tank, normally on attacking an airfield I go right for the runway :)
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FireDragn, I've always found that, not only defending agressivly, but even going over to the offensive is very effective.
Theres just something a little but unnerving about a tank charging toward you at full speed, managing to aim the gun and score hits (even if ricochets) at full speed. You know hes good, and that if he gets close enough, or just lucky, one of those shells might not ricochet.
Panthers in particular are very senstive to their flanks. If you charge them from head on, they'll hold their ground till they die in place, but if you hit them from the side, even if its an angling shot, they'll be falling back if they survive your first hit.
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Is that a serious question, or are you just trolling :huh?
HE is high explosives. While they CAN be used on light armored vehicles, HTC has decided that, for whatever reason, HE rounds will bounce off of the lightly armored vehicles instead of exploding and damaging them (as represented by a hitsprite)
Rule of thumb: its its got armor, use armor piercing.
High Explosive rounds are used for town buildings, AA and AT emplacments on bases, and field structures such as radar, ordnance bunkers, and fuel.
jager ive damaged LAVs with HE. hit near them or just shoot directly on them. ive killed many M8s with HE
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Butcher can take you to the TA I have a few training threads around here but frankly i've lost interest as a trainer.
But the thread linked in the 2nd post is still very much relevant to where to aim for kills.
The rest Butcher can explain and only a lot of practice will make you great.
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To answer your question I prefer the shoot and scoot methodology. Fire, kill them(might take more than one shot), then move to next position. Preferably advancing towards the enemy as opposed to another sit and wait layup. Think angled when you stop at a fire position. Meaning never try to put your frontal armor straight on to the incoming vehicles fire. This increases your armor effectiveness and increases the possibility of less damaging hits and ricochets of enemy rounds. Take time to shut your engine down and listen to what is going on around you. This will help you fix position on friendly and enemy vehicles in your immediate area. I use the Firefly exclusively and it seems to thrive in this role. Good Hunting Sir!
:salute
Way
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Thanks for the help and advice, gents. I believe I've got somewhat of a sense for it now. I think I'll be ok for a bit. Maybe I'll get hold of you in a little while, Butcher. I'd like to let some of this congeal a bit in my head before I go to the TA.
Wiley.
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jager ive damaged LAVs with HE. hit near them or just shoot directly on them. ive killed many M8s with HE
As I said, you CAN do it, its just less effective than AP rounds. If you HAVE to hit it, like you do with some vehicles (or else waste more HE rounds than I care to do), you might as well be shooting AP.
And again, as I said, as a rule of thumb.
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Thanks for the help and advice, gents. I believe I've got somewhat of a sense for it now. I think I'll be ok for a bit. Maybe I'll get hold of you in a little while, Butcher. I'd like to let some of this congeal a bit in my head before I go to the TA.
Wiley.
I will be in the Training Arena for the next hour, its 8pm EST right now
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As I said, you CAN do it, its just less effective than AP rounds. If you HAVE to hit it, like you do with some vehicles (or else waste more HE rounds than I care to do), you might as well be shooting AP.
And again, as I said, as a rule of thumb.
dunno bout you but ill use HE anytime against light vehicles over the AP... its just that much easier to kill them
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I drive Tigers almost exclusively these days and for me protecting myself from bombs is a bigger deal than other tanks. I like to stand off from the battlefield (1600-3000 is ideal but longer ranges are ok), hidden from aircraft in a grove of trees but with a broad view of the terrain in front of me. Aircraft will go for those closer to the front lines or, if no one else is in front of me at least have a harder time seeing my icon and calculating their best attack angle.
Lacking cover I look for terrain of similar color to the default skin color.
Once my position is known I may move to another location but that depends on the number of enemies, their skill levels, what they're using and what cover is available to them. Sometimes I'll just sit in the open daring them to come for me.
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as a fairly dedicated GVers these days. even tho I suck, I have a few observations, tips and tactics.
I prefer the T34-85. good gun, but mostly I likes its speed, fastest tracked GV, gets you to the action, or allows you to get away if things go wrong. good to start reducing the town before defenders get up.
if there's some aircover, the T34-76 with 100 rnds of HE is good town killer, but its glacial reload times make the process laborious.
I'll sometimes take a M4 out to defend a base, stable gun platform, fast reloading, but just too slow as an offensive weapon for my taste. same for Pzrs and Tiggers
M8 used to be more fun till they switched to its hazy gunsite optics. used to pork bases with it. 2x 37mm AP shots to a Pzr IV's turret from an M8 will disable it.
I've killed tanks w/ 75mm HE, if the trajectory had some arc to it and the round landed on top of the turret or engine deck. HE rounds will kill acks just landing in proximity, but it seems to take a direct hit by the AP. it takes 2 rnds of HE to kill a bldg, 3 rnds of AP.
Wirble/Osti turrets can be disabled by .50 MG fire.
AP rounds will sometimes go thru thin-skinned GVs, which is why HE can be more effective.
I prefer to keep to the flanks whether attacking or defending. easier to set up bushwacks and get in flank shots. shoot then move. I try to hide in places I can back out of w/o looking behind me.
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KG45 Let me improve on the list -
M4(75) While not technically a tank killer, with a Larger HE load and Rockets, this m4 can defend itself while in town (due to the close range) and do some serious damage to towns.
M4(76) A Well balanced tank with a 50 cal on top, This M4 has a decent gun, average armor and speed, It can be used on defense or offense.
T34(76): One of the rare tanks to see in the game, although its speed is excellent, the gun is below average as well as armor, wouldn't classify it as an offensive or defensive tank mainly because I rarely have seen these.
T34(85): This is my preferred (under 5 perk) tank. Its speed is excellent, Its main gun has HVAP which can kill a Tiger/Panther under 1200, however its armor is only average in the hull and decent in the turret.
Panzer: Standard tank in the game, armor is average as well as the gun and speed, usually an offensive/defensive tank with no special qualities.
Panther: Crowned one of the best Medium tanks in World War 2, Superb gun which can knock out most tanks beyond a mile, the Armor excels in the front, but rather weak in the Lower front hull and rear, also has Speed to beat most tanks only short of the T34 series.
Tiger: Speed is average although very impressive for a 56ton tank, gun is a monster being the 88mm L/56 - and Armor is outstanding, The tank was most feared and only second to its Big Brother.
Tiger II: Armor is mostly untouchable unless you allow someone so close to get you from the front or side, Speed is poor, as well as acceleration, however the combination of Armor and Firepower being the 88mm L/71 - this tank can be unstoppable in the right hands.
LVT: No AP rounds, so only good for town killing or running troops
M3(75): Although 60mph seems impressive, its 75mm gun is only good if you manage to get behind someone at a fairly close range.
M8: cute little tank when its flying around before a simple Pintle gun stops it dead, the 37mm is a waste of time, although it can be good for de-acking airfields or towns if you can manage to not let the ack kill you first.
Jeep: Beep beep
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Hey, the M8 had a time when it was dang good. I took twelve, honestly, twelve Panzer IV Hs out in one sortie in it once.
That was, however, before the introduction of such M8 immune tanks as the T-34/76, Sherman VC Firefly (which I note is mostly absent from the discussion) and so on. Tiger Is were there, but rare.
Oh yeah, M8 tactics. One 37mm to the back of the Panzer IV's turret kills the turret and two to rear hull kills the Panzer, on to the next target. Stop and slow down as little as possible, the armor you have may as well not be there.
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Sherman VC Firefly (which I note is mostly absent from the discussion)
Maybe that's because he's mostly absent from the AH battlefield too ;)
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Hey, the M8 had a time when it was dang good. I took twelve, honestly, twelve Panzer IV Hs out in one sortie in it once.
That was, however, before the introduction of such M8 immune tanks as the T-34/76, Sherman VC Firefly (which I note is mostly absent from the discussion) and so on. Tiger Is were there, but rare.
Oh yeah, M8 tactics. One 37mm to the back of the Panzer IV's turret kills the turret and two to rear hull kills the Panzer, on to the next target. Stop and slow down as little as possible, the armor you have may as well not be there.
The Sherman Firefly doesn't get used much because of its paper thin armor, below average speed and perk value. However for something that will kill a Tiger at quite a distance and for so little perks, its well worth tinkering with. I rarely have seen anyone attempt to using the FireFly, and most of the time when I do they get killed at distance by Panzers, M4s and T34's.
The M8 had its time, and its still possible for one or two kills against Panzers, however the limited range of the gun makes it a challange to even within 200 yards alone for a kill shot, even then it takes perfect accuracy and hoping the gunner isn't quick enough to react.
This is why I route for the Puma Scout car, with a 50mm L/60 which could do some damage and is fast.
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The Sherman Firefly doesn't get used much because of its paper thin armor, below average speed and perk value. However for something that will kill a Tiger at quite a distance and for so little perks, its well worth tinkering with. I rarely have seen anyone attempt to using the FireFly, and most of the time when I do they get killed at distance by Panzers, M4s and T34's.
The armor is exactly the same as the 75 & 76 model. The advantages: zoom optics, heavy hitting 17lber, long distance gunnery, blends in with greenery even when viewed with default skin. Drawbacks are it's slower reload times in relation to the other M4's, and it's slower top speed. For shoot and scoot she works well, as followup shots are rarely needed on anything else other than the Tigers & Panther.
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The armor is exactly the same as the 75 & 76 model. The advantages: zoom optics, heavy hitting 17lber, long distance gunnery, blends in with greenery even when viewed with default skin. Drawbacks are it's slower reload times in relation to the other M4's, and it's slower top speed. For shoot and scoot she works well, as followup shots are rarely needed on anything else other than the Tigers & Panther.
On paper the fireflys armor may be the same as the m76 but it dies much easier than the 76 in the game.
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On paper the fireflys armor may be the same as the m76 but it dies much easier than the 76 in the game.
Its been a well known flaw for a while, the M4(75) has the best armor on paper, however the M4(76)'s armor is petty much a fortress and the M4(75) is practically butter while the Firefly sits in a Hanger.
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On paper the fireflys armor may be the same as the m76 but it dies much easier than the 76 in the game.
Its been a well known flaw for a while, the M4(75) has the best armor on paper, however the M4(76)'s armor is petty much a fortress and the M4(75) is practically butter while the Firefly sits in a Hanger.
I have heard this before, but never experienced it myself. Whether this is a result of the way I tank or my sticking with the Firefly as my favorite, I do not know. My questions is this: you both have provided subjective proof of your claim, can you provide objective proof in the form of actual data to lend credence to your claims? Interested in your reply.
:salute
Way
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M4(75) and the Firefly are dry storage, unlike the M4(76)W. The armor is the same, it just takes less damage to kill one.
Imagine 100mm frontal armor for all three. M4(75) has 200hp, Firefly has 200hp, and the M4(76) has 350 hp. It takes the same force to penetrate the armor, and damage each one, the M4(76) can just take more damage. That is the simplified, dumbed-down version of the explination.
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M4(75) and the Firefly are dry storage, unlike the M4(76)W. The armor is the same, it just takes less damage to kill one.
Imagine 100mm frontal armor for all three. M4(75) has 200hp, Firefly has 200hp, and the M4(76) has 350 hp. It takes the same force to penetrate the armor, and damage each one, the M4(76) can just take more damage. That is the simplified, dumbed-down version of the explination.
If this is the case then it needs to be fixed, but again I have not run ito this myself. Thank you for dumbing it down, but I was actually hoping for someone to smarten it up. ;)
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I have no stats I don't know if it's even possible to get stats.
I just have my countless hours of experience to go by think what you may...and hope your firefly doesn't come across me :aok
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I have no stats I don't know if it's even possible to get stats.
I just have my countless hours of experience to go by think what you may...and hope your firefly doesn't come across me :aok
My point is opinion is not enough. I have countless hours experience as well. You and I have crossed guns a few times and it was about 50/50 in the engagements, so it's not much to fear. :aok
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OK, so here is how it seems to work. Can't prove it, but it seems to fall in line with what happens in game:
The shell from each gun has a set damage value and a set armor penetration value at 0yds. Damage and penetration decrease as ranges increase. Damage also decreases with the thickness of armor the shell must penetrate. As long as your shell penetrates your target's armor, you will do some damage to him. Not nessiciarliy a lot, but some.
The tanks also have a damage threshold. One each for the tracks, the engine, the turret and the tank itself. When you excede the damage threshold for an individual part, it 'breaks' and no longer functions. If you keep hitting that part (tracks, and AA vehicles excluded, they had the damage model changed so that you can't hit the turret multiple times and kill the entire vehicle, IIRC) and it will eventually destroy the tank.
The M4 family all has pretty much the same armor. Factoring slope, this armor is ~100mm thick on the glacis plate. The M4(75) and firefly are both modeled with "dry storage" or ammunition stored in regular shell racks or bins. The M4(76) is modeled with "wet storage" or ammunition stored in water-lined bins. This reduced the chance of a detonation of the ammunition in the event the armor is penetrated. This is represented in the game with a higher damage threshold than the M4(75) and the Firefly.
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OK, so here is how it seems to work. Can't prove it, but it seems to fall in line with what happens in game:
The shell from each gun has a set damage value and a set armor penetration value at 0yds. Damage and penetration decrease as ranges increase. Damage also decreases with the thickness of armor the shell must penetrate. As long as your shell penetrates your target's armor, you will do some damage to him. Not nessiciarliy a lot, but some.
The tanks also have a damage threshold. One each for the tracks, the engine, the turret and the tank itself. When you excede the damage threshold for an individual part, it 'breaks' and no longer functions. If you keep hitting that part (tracks, and AA vehicles excluded, they had the damage model changed so that you can't hit the turret multiple times and kill the entire vehicle, IIRC) and it will eventually destroy the tank.
The M4 family all has pretty much the same armor. Factoring slope, this armor is ~100mm thick on the glacis plate. The M4(75) and firefly are both modeled with "dry storage" or ammunition stored in regular shell racks or bins. The M4(76) is modeled with "wet storage" or ammunition stored in water-lined bins. This reduced the chance of a detonation of the ammunition in the event the armor is penetrated. This is represented in the game with a higher damage threshold than the M4(75) and the Firefly.
Thank you Tank, something more than the "countless hours of experience and that's just the way it is". I think when I get some time I may want to actually run some experiments with the Firefly and find out if there is some truth to all of this. You interested in helping sometime? Let me know.
:salute
Way
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I would love to. You have now idea how thrilled I was when they finally gave us the penetration tables. I had made some tables on my own, but they weren't as accurate as the ones HTC has provided.
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I would love to. You have now idea how thrilled I was when they finally gave us the penetration tables. I had made some tables on my own, but they weren't as accurate as the ones HTC has provided.
Roger that I will be in touch in a few weeks. Working on methodology for this test. I want to compare the M475, M476 & Firefly for hit damage from a variety of tanks and a variety of armor hit points(front, side, rear, turret). Just want to see if there is anything to these rumors. My hypothesis is that you will find the Firefly is not used as much due to the perk and slower top speed, rather than it's weakness in comparison to the other M4's. Talk at ya soon!
Way
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the M8 would probably be a good way to test. 37mm won't one shot this thing no matter where you hit it, so it will let us test the M4's damage more precisely.
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Hull down = only turret is visable to the enemy
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cc/Hull_down_tank_diagram.png/640px-Hull_down_tank_diagram.png)
Blooz et al . . . to confirm that one's position is hull down, what's the best method. I'll go into position 2 (firing position with reticle) and try to have the sight just clear a berm. In position 1, there's a full clear view of the field. Is that how it is done.?
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Blooz et al . . . to confirm that one's position is hull down, what's the best method. I'll go into position 2 (firing position with reticle) and try to have the sight just clear a berm. In position 1, there's a full clear view of the field. Is that how it is done.?
Hap I believe you have it right,in gunner position lower gun and it should drop to just below the berm,IIRC it's a 15 degree down traverse so when level it should just clear the berm.
:salute
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I'm always available for anyone who wants to learn about tanking, just find me in game, LWArena
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I almost never take %100 of either type of ammo. Only the Sith deal in the absolute. ;) Even when going to a tank fight I will always take the smallest amount of HE along. Why? Because HE is BETTER than AP when it comes to enemy M3's, M8's, M18's, 251's, and even Wirbys and Ostys. A near miss will cause cause enough damage to take out engines, blow tires, mangle turrets, etc. Once crippled then an AP round is loaded. The M3 and M8 will blow up nicely when hit directly with an HE round.
Oh, in case people were wondering, here are the following main tank guns listed in order of AP ability at 2000 yards in AH:
Tiger II @ 176mm
Firefly @ 129mm
Panther @ 118mm
Tiger I @ 111mm
Panzer IV H @ 98mm
M4A3 (W) 76mm @ 97mm
M18 @ 97mm
T34/86 @ 94mm and 79mm
Panzer IV F/2 @ 90mm
M4A3/75mm @ 70mm
T34/76 @ 63mm and 55mm
Panzer IV F/1 @ 38mm
The 1000 yard range tells a wee bit different story thanks to the T34's HVAP ammunition. However, there is far more than just the AP ability of a tank to consider. The optics make a huge difference. Having the ability to get 5X or higher zoom is a huge blessing, and even more so when in a German tank with the high quality optics. Turret traverse rate, pivot ability, reload rate, vehicle speed, and armor protection are all factors that need to be taken in to consideration when taking a tank.
Someday I will get someone to host my "Tank Specifications" spreadsheet for anyone to download. It has all the details for all the tanks in AH for quick reference. It comes in handy quite often.
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Unless of course you have the armor and gun data memorized.
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I almost never take %100 of either type of ammo. Only the Sith deal in the absolute. ;) Even when going to a tank fight I will always take the smallest amount of HE along. Why? Because HE is BETTER than AP when it comes to enemy M3's, M8's, M18's, 251's, and even Wirbys and Ostys. A near miss will cause cause enough damage to take out engines, blow tires, mangle turrets, etc. Once crippled then an AP round is loaded. The M3 and M8 will blow up nicely when hit directly with an HE round.
Oh, in case people were wondering, here are the following main tank guns listed in order of AP ability at 2000 yards in AH:
Tiger II @ 176mm
Firefly @ 129mm
Panther @ 118mm
Tiger I @ 111mm
Panzer IV H @ 98mm
M4A3 (W) 76mm @ 97mm
M18 @ 97mm
T34/86 @ 94mm and 79mm
Panzer IV F/2 @ 90mm
M4A3/75mm @ 70mm
T34/76 @ 63mm and 55mm
Panzer IV F/1 @ 38mm
The 1000 yard range tells a wee bit different story thanks to the T34's HVAP ammunition. However, there is far more than just the AP ability of a tank to consider. The optics make a huge difference. Having the ability to get 5X or higher zoom is a huge blessing, and even more so when in a German tank with the high quality optics. Turret traverse rate, pivot ability, reload rate, vehicle speed, and armor protection are all factors that need to be taken in to consideration when taking a tank.
Someday I will get someone to host my "Tank Specifications" spreadsheet for anyone to download. It has all the details for all the tanks in AH for quick reference. It comes in handy quite often.
If you can email me I can post it on 367thdynamitegang.com, have a nice download section for that kinda stuff.
But also, most fighting done in a GV is well below 2k, only some crack shots will attempt to continuously shoot beyond 2k mainly because you expend quite a bit of ammo. My normal fighting is done in a Panther at roughly 1.5k which just above the range of anything under 2 perks from killing me, anything over 2 perks will easily kill me.
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If you can email me I can post it on 367thdynamitegang.com, have a nice download section for that kinda stuff.
But also, most fighting done in a GV is well below 2k, only some crack shots will attempt to continuously shoot beyond 2k mainly because you expend quite a bit of ammo. My normal fighting is done in a Panther at roughly 1.5k which just above the range of anything under 2 perks from killing me, anything over 2 perks will easily kill me.
I will proof read my tank data and email it to you. I just updated the turn radius for each tank.
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I will proof read my tank data and email it to you. I just updated the turn radius for each tank.
cool deal, my email is butcher@367thdynamitegang.com
I'm glad you took the time to do this, I was going to write an XML file with all the information needed (from top speed, armor thickness, gun penetration range etc) but lately works been overwhelming me to point I got rid of an idea to make it a 3D model for "visual" identification.
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email sent.
I just finished the "mils" chart for all the tanks in AH to use with the German Zeiss tank sights as well. I will proof the ranges offline and can send that as well.
It will be good to get that info out in to the hands of the players. I think many players use the German sights as "ghost ring" sights and have no clue how to use them. I'm also writing up a "how to" tutorial for the German sight, but I'm not good at using diagrams and pics.
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email sent.
I just finished the "mils" chart for all the tanks in AH to use with the German Zeiss tank sights as well. I will proof the ranges offline and can send that as well.
It will be good to get that info out in to the hands of the players. I think many players use the German sights as "ghost ring" sights and have no clue how to use them. I'm also writing up a "how to" tutorial for the German sight, but I'm not good at using diagrams and pics.
Here's a direct link - http://www.367thdynamitegang.com/files/TANK%20Stats%202.ods
If you want I can import it and make it into an entire HTML page so its easier to read?
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I'm decent at using diagrams. If you want, send me a copy of the write-up, and I'll add pictures as needed.
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IMO, it is easy to see what the Firefly has been left behind. The main culprit is the M4/76. There are couple of very distinct reasons-
In no particular order:
The Firefly is the slowest tank/TD in the game at 20mph. [M4/76 is 26mph]
The Firefly offers nothing the M4/76 cant do inside typical AH tank combat ranges (less than 1600 yards).
The Firefly has a perk price of 7, while the M4/76 has a cost of 2.
The Firefly is a bit slow on the reload at 8 seconds, that is 2 seconds slower than the Panther, 2.5 seconds slower than the M4/76, and 1 second slower than the Tiger. Only the King Tiger (10 sec) and the T34/76 are slower.
It offers no more armor protection (on paper) than the M4/76mm.
So in short, unless the range of the tank battle starts are 2000 yards and only gets further out, there is absolutely no reason to take the 7 point Firefly when the 2 point M4/76 will do everything better than the Firefly except for long range AP. On the same token, why take a Firefly when for a token 8 more perks a faster firing/same powered Panther tank with 9 mph more speed, pivot capability, and vastly superior frontal armor be taken???
I STRONGLY encourage HTC to take a second look at the Firefly, especially the reload rate and the speed. The power of the 17 Pdr gun is not to be under-rated, but the reload rate for the Firefly is simply too slow. I base that on knowing the mechanics and how the main guns works on comparable tank guns (M4/76 and Panther), ammunition storage accessibility on the same tanks, size of the tank rounds in question (Firefly and Panther shells were very near the same weight and length, the M4/76mm was very close as well), and testimony from modern day tankers. HTC's reload rate for the Firefly, as with ALL reload rates of their tanks are purely arbitrary numbers. Regarding the speed of the Firefly, there are multiple sources out there that show that the Firefly was indeed slower than the US M4's for some specific reasons, but none of them gave 20mph as the exact speed. The ranges I've read are 22-23 mph.
edit: sorry for the hijack
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IMO, it is easy to see what the Firefly has been left behind. The main culprit is the M4/76. There are couple of very distinct reasons-
In no particular order:
The Firefly is the slowest tank/TD in the game at 20mph. [M4/76 is 26mph]
The Firefly offers nothing the M4/76 cant do inside typical AH tank combat ranges (less than 1600 yards).
The Firefly has a perk price of 7, while the M4/76 has a cost of 2.
The Firefly is a bit slow on the reload at 8 seconds, that is 2 seconds slower than the Panther, 2.5 seconds slower than the M4/76, and 1 second slower than the Tiger. Only the King Tiger (10 sec) and the T34/76 are slower.
It offers no more armor protection (on paper) than the M4/76mm.
So in short, unless the range of the tank battle starts are 2000 yards and only gets further out, there is absolutely no reason to take the 7 point Firefly when the 2 point M4/76 will do everything better than the Firefly except for long range AP. On the same token, why take a Firefly when for a token 8 more perks a faster firing/same powered Panther tank with 9 mph more speed, pivot capability, and vastly superior frontal armor be taken???
I STRONGLY encourage HTC to take a second look at the Firefly, especially the reload rate and the speed. The power of the 17 Pdr gun is not to be under-rated, but the reload rate for the Firefly is simply too slow. I base that on knowing the mechanics and how the main guns works on comparable tank guns (M4/76 and Panther), ammunition storage accessibility on the same tanks, size of the tank rounds in question (Firefly and Panther shells were very near the same weight and length, the M4/76mm was very close as well), and testimony from modern day tankers. HTC's reload rate for the Firefly, as with ALL reload rates of their tanks are purely arbitrary numbers. Regarding the speed of the Firefly, there are multiple sources out there that show that the Firefly was indeed slower than the US M4's for some specific reasons, but none of them gave 20mph as the exact speed. The ranges I've read are 22-23 mph.
edit: sorry for the hijack
HTC has same source I have, which I speculate it should be 21mph due to a governor on the tank to keep it from tearing the suspension apart, this is due to the British design - ideal it can run at 25mph for a short burst, however it was prone to destroying the engine/suspension in a long run, even one time.
The Firefly is the firefly, only thing I can say is 1mph change, and if it wasn't fixed then either they have different Data or its such a small margin of error it won't be changed for a while.
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Loon, the firefly does a lot more damage for every shot than the M4 does (or so it seems).
With the Firefly, you have better optics (even if the sight is worse, IMO), the ability to one-shot most tanks, and a much improved ability to engage Tiger's and Panthers.
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Loon, the firefly does a lot more damage for every shot than the M4 does (or so it seems).
With the Firefly, you have better optics (even if the sight is worse, IMO), the ability to one-shot most tanks, and a much improved ability to engage Tiger's and Panthers.
You missed my point. The only advantage the Firefly has over the M4/76 is the long range penetration ability. That is it. The Firefly has a 6X zoom and the M4/76 has a 5X, for all practical purposes there is no advantage for the Firefly. The Firefly reloads as slow as a 7 year itch. So again, I offer that the long range ability of the Firefly is not worth the extra perks it cost to bring it out of the hanger.
The Firefly's slower speed by 6 mph and 2.5 second slower rate of fire compared to the M4/76, which does not surrender any AP ability at typical AH tank battle range, will keep it in the hanger.
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The biggest problem with the Firefly is 80% of tankers have no idea how to use it correctly, its one of the best ambush/defensive tanks in the game, assuming you are able to get in an ambush setting quick enough without being over-ran.
Most will up a King Tiger and sit on concrete rather then use a Firefly for obvious reasons, A) they don't want to lose perks but want a big gun B) have no idea how to use a firefly effectively and get killed the second they leave concrete
Honestly if you are going to up a perk tank and spend the perks - the Panther runs around 15-20 perks - excellent armor, highly mobile, excellent gun and 29 mph where as a Firefly being 5-7 perks does 20mph, excellent gun - no mobility or armor.
Granted I will say this, if your a newer tanker to the game its best to up a few Fireflies to get a basic understanding of ambushing/defending before you ever step into a panther/tiger. I know a few that have barely any perks in GV's, and constantly waste them on bad situations in perk tanks.
It really comes down to the player himself, most of my squad are either in a Panther or T34/85, 90% of my GV kills are in either as well.
When it comes down to it, I guess its your style of play rather then anything else.
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The biggest problem with the Firefly is 80% of tankers have no idea how to use it correctly, its one of the best ambush/defensive tanks in the game, assuming you are able to get in an ambush setting quick enough without being over-ran.
Butcher has it right. I love my Firefly and would not drive anything less. The optics and firepower make it a great shoot and scoot tank to pick at incoming GV's.
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Butcher has it right. I love my Firefly and would not drive anything less. The optics and firepower make it a great shoot and scoot tank to pick at incoming GV's.
If you think the Firefly is a good "shoot-n-scoot" tank, then you perhaps may want to verify the meaning of that term. That term personifies the M18, not the Firefly. ;) :aok
The Firefly is best used as a long range engagement tank. The 6X optics, the hard hitting-flat shooting main gun are at best utilized at long range. The slower 20mph speed and 8 second reload make it sluggish in close range battles. Inside typical AH tank battle ranges, it is at a disadvantage compared the M4/76 due to the 2.5 second slower reload.
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If you think the Firefly is a good "shoot-n-scoot" tank, then you perhaps may want to verify the meaning of that term. That term personifies the M18, not the Firefly. ;) :aok
The Firefly is best used as a long range engagement tank. The 6X optics, the hard hitting-flat shooting main gun are at best utilized at long range. The slower 20mph speed and 8 second reload make it sluggish in close range battles. Inside typical AH tank battle ranges, it is at a disadvantage compared the M4/76 due to the 2.5 second slower reload.
Thats very true, Being in a semi-tanking squad - I generally have the luxury of always having a squad mate in a Panther/T34 etc nearby which gives me the advantage of using the Firefly to its best when its actually used, normally we frankly just have so many perks we just stick with the Panther.
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You missed my point. The only advantage the Firefly has over the M4/76 is the long range penetration ability. That is it. The Firefly has a 6X zoom and the M4/76 has a 5X, for all practical purposes there is no advantage for the Firefly. The Firefly reloads as slow as a 7 year itch. So again, I offer that the long range ability of the Firefly is not worth the extra perks it cost to bring it out of the hanger.
The Firefly's slower speed by 6 mph and 2.5 second slower rate of fire compared to the M4/76, which does not surrender any AP ability at typical AH tank battle range, will keep it in the hanger.
And you missed my point. The Firefly takes, instead of speed, ROF, or better damage-sponge properties, a much higher damage caused by each shell (again, it seems so at least). This means that, where an M4A3(76) might take 4 shots to kill 2 tanks at 700yds, the Firefly will usually do it in just 2 shots, therefore the ROF advantage is moot (especially at close range, where the odds of a miss are much lower).
Really, the only actuall LOSS of preformance the Firefly has over the M4 is speed and how much damage it can take. And the later is much more of an issue. Asside from that, they both achieve the same thing through different means; the M4 kills things with faster-firing but weaker shells, while the firefly kills things with slower firing but more powerfull shells. The firefly is actually a bit faster at engagning multiple targets.
By the way, the 17lber is significantly more powerfull than the 76mm M1A1:
17lber: 172mm at 0yds
M1A1: 136mm at 0yds (I think its 136 anway. Its definetly more than 133mm and less than 137mm).
This means that while the M4 is unable to penetrate the Panther's glacis plate at any range, the Firefly is able to do so at out to about 1200yds IIRC.
Point is that the speed, and especially ROF are small factors in its hanger-queen status. Its the perk price, and easy of being destroyed that keep it in the hanger.
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The air aspect of AH flaws the balance of the game a good bit,, tho I like all aspects of the game. If we had an all gv, arena or one where there was no ord near a tank town type map, the M-18 would rule the game It's speed and gun ability is unmatched ! The firefly is a great tank. And has a nice ability to stand off with the big German tanks, but nothing can compare to 50 plus MPH and the 76 mm gun in the right hands !
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I'd have to argue with that WWhisky. The Königstiger would probably take that place, or at least put up one hell of a fight before taking no less than 2nd place.
1) completly invincible from the front, and from the sides when angled.
2) 1-shot ability for most tanks out beyond 2700yds (I've one-shoted a T-34/85 at an estimated 3450yds).
3) fear factor: The M18 may be dangerous if you let it flank you, or don't spot it in time, but the Tiger II is dangerous, period. Hell, it even LOOKS menacing.
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And you missed my point. The Firefly takes, instead of speed, ROF, or better damage-sponge properties, a much higher damage caused by each shell (again, it seems so at least). This means that, where an M4A3(76) might take 4 shots to kill 2 tanks at 700yds, the Firefly will usually do it in just 2 shots, therefore the ROF advantage is moot (especially at close range, where the odds of a miss are much lower).
This means that while the M4 is unable to penetrate the Panther's glacis plate at any range, the Firefly is able to do so at out to about 1200yds IIRC.
Point is that the speed, and especially ROF are small factors in its hanger-queen status. Its the perk price, and easy of being destroyed that keep it in the hanger.
An M4a3 should not require 2 shots to kill any tank at 700 yards, unless you are hitting tracks which in any case even a 17LB can't do any better.
The only advantage a firefly has over an M4a3 is kill shots at range beyond 1400yards. I have no idea where you come up with the idea battle damage properties actually means anything other then towns, there is a case where tanks taking to many hits will because "weak" however I have seen this once every 6 months - in thousands of engagements.
ROF I don't believe has anything to do with the hanger-queen status, I would say its strictly perk value and armor, I would lean more towards the armor value as in most tanks at any range can successfully engage and destroy a Firefly, where most people are not going to risk losing 7 perks when 15-20 perk Panther is a better value. However I believe the perk value of the Firefly is correct, although the tank is horrible the main gun is what makes it stand out, for 7 perks you are getting a weapon thats able to play with Tigers/Panthers where nothing else we have on the allies side can.
Until some russian tank destroyers come out, the tactics of flanking have to come into play, and any decent perk tank driver is always going to have someone on his flanks which rule out that - which is why ords and ground attack are so viable for gv's to succeed in the game.
Even with Air support, the M18 has proven to be a hassle for Perk tanks, in no way can it match a perk tank, however given the odds - 2 m18s are more then a match for a typical Panther driver in game, this is why air support dominates the Aces High - a couple of 303s (possibly?) or 50 cal (for sure) will knock an m18 out.
Assuming the pilots get to the m18 before it gets to a Perk tank first, I'm fortunate I haven't really had much problems against M18s, however I seldom run into other squads with equal skilled tankers which tends to be a balancing factor (most won't go offensive with perk tanks, instead rely more on faster non-perk tanks)
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I'd have to argue with that WWhisky. The Königstiger would probably take that place, or at least put up one hell of a fight before taking no less than 2nd place.
1) completly invincible from the front, and from the sides when angled.
2) 1-shot ability for most tanks out beyond 2700yds (I've one-shoted a T-34/85 at an estimated 3450yds).
3) fear factor: The M18 may be dangerous if you let it flank you, or don't spot it in time, but the Tiger II is dangerous, period. Hell, it even LOOKS menacing.
Most don't take a King Tiger off concrete let alone use it in an offensive mode, you will rarely see a King Tiger enough for it to be more meancing then an M18.
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kind of proud of these numbers for day two of the month!
kills deaths
M-18 7 2 0 2
M-3 1 3 0 2
M-8 0 2 0 0
M4A3(75) 64 7 0 15
M4A3(76)W 147 37 14 32
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I may have used terminology for my preferred Firefly tactics that don't match others, but my methodology is to move up towards enemy, fire for a kill, move again, fire for a kill, always advancing towards the enemy but along the right or left flanks. Butcher touched on something to note about the Firefly and that it's perk comes strictly from it's superior cannon (in comparison to other M-4's). This gives you a tank that allows you for a modest perk to kill anything it runs into. Let's face it, most guys do not up a Panther, Tiger or Tiger II to an enemy field. Those tanks are reserved in my experience for parking on safe pavement or a friendly spwan camp. So the closest gun (typically) to the Firefly's 17 lb'er that you will encounter when on the defensive is usually the T34-85, which the Firefly can easily dispatch. Reload time is slower, but it is a one shot one kill machine that more than makes up for it's slower speed and typically weak M4 armor.
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Most don't take a King Tiger off concrete let alone use it in an offensive mode, you will rarely see a King Tiger enough for it to be more meancing then an M18.
Damn you stole my thunder Butcher! :aok That's what makes the Firefly's gun such a worthy perk.
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In my opinion. The firefly should be the first perk tank,, the m4/76 and t34/85 shouldn't cost anything for late war
The panther next and the. The tigers. #1 at 25 and #2 at 50
It is my feeling that all the gv's are to expensive for their ability since every one of them is so easily killed by aircraft!
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OK butcher, so the M4(76) will never need more than 1 shot to kill anything in the game at under 1000yds or so, regardless of circumstances, glad to know the Tiger II, Panther, and Tiger are grossly over-perked, and I'll be sure not to drive them when I get back :rolleyes:.
Tanks that can/sometimes DO require more than shot to kill:
Tiger II
Tiger I
Panther
M4(76)
T-34/85
Panzer IV
Tanks that potentially could (but I have yet to see in combat) need more than 1 shot to kill:
T-34/76
M4(75)
M4's if they're covering the bottom of their hull will almost be guranteed to need more than 1 shot to kill.
Tiger II's will ALWAYS need more than 1 shot to kill, since the M4 can't kill them from the front.
Tiger I will almost always need more than 1 shot to kill it.
Panther will usually need more than 1 shot to kill it.
And the Panzer IV will sometimes need more than 1 shot to kill it if you miss the turret, usually when hes angled.
The Firefly is basicly guaranteed to kill any tank but the Tiger II, Panther, and Tiger I in a single penetrating shot, regardless of hit location. And it will often one-shot Panthers and sometimes the Tiger I.
And about the damage, the current system seems to assign a damage value for each shell (infact, I'm almost sure of it, since the assign damage values to bullets and cannon shells). Firefly seems to have a higher damage value (based on its rarely needing multiple shots to kill the most common tanks at close-med range).
As for the rest of your post, its completly irrelevent to everything I was talking about. It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the advantages you gain by driving a firefly. It just talks about the weaknesses of ALL tanks compared to the M18 and airsupport.
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Most don't take a King Tiger off concrete let alone use it in an offensive mode, you will rarely see a King Tiger enough for it to be more meancing then an M18.
He said it will rule the game, which it would in a tank-only arena. Main deterent to using perk tanks offensivly is the murderous airsupport thats almost 100% certian to show up.
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lol
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OK butcher, so the M4(76) will never need more than 1 shot to kill anything in the game at under 1000yds or so, regardless of circumstances, glad to know the Tiger II, Panther, and Tiger are grossly over-perked, and I'll be sure not to drive them when I get back :rolleyes:.
Tanks that can/sometimes DO require more than shot to kill:
Tiger II
Tiger I
Panther
M4(76)
T-34/85
Panzer IV
Tanks that potentially could (but I have yet to see in combat) need more than 1 shot to kill:
T-34/76
M4(75)
M4's if they're covering the bottom of their hull will almost be guranteed to need more than 1 shot to kill.
Tiger II's will ALWAYS need more than 1 shot to kill, since the M4 can't kill them from the front.
Tiger I will almost always need more than 1 shot to kill it.
Panther will usually need more than 1 shot to kill it.
And the Panzer IV will sometimes need more than 1 shot to kill it if you miss the turret, usually when hes angled.
The Firefly is basicly guaranteed to kill any tank but the Tiger II, Panther, and Tiger I in a single penetrating shot, regardless of hit location. And it will often one-shot Panthers and sometimes the Tiger I.
And about the damage, the current system seems to assign a damage value for each shell (infact, I'm almost sure of it, since the assign damage values to bullets and cannon shells). Firefly seems to have a higher damage value (based on its rarely needing multiple shots to kill the most common tanks at close-med range).
As for the rest of your post, its completly irrelevent to everything I was talking about. It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the advantages you gain by driving a firefly. It just talks about the weaknesses of ALL tanks compared to the M18 and airsupport.
Most everything you said above can be condensed in to these next few points: Range is the trump card. The King Tiger is joker. The Firefly is the 1 eyed jack.
We do not know the actual damage value of the AP rounds of each tank, all we know is the AP damage to OBJ, which HTC has said outright that the damage to OBJ and the damage to planes and vehicles are 2 very different things. The Firefly actually has a weaker HE shell (140lbs), and a very standard AP damage round (78lbs). So again, we do not really know who much damage it does to gv's, we only know it is the second best tank AP gun in AH.
The M4/76mm and M18 are very much in the game against anything inside 1400 to 1600 yards, and for that matter so is the Panzer IV H (which actually has superior AP ability to the M4/76 and M18). The equation is very simple, really. The impact angle of the projectile on the armor, the velocity of the projectile, and the weight of the projectile all factor in. So if you are in a Pazner IV H, and you take a round from a Panther at 1000 on the right side of the turret from the front, a glancing shot is very likely to happen. Take that same round and hit square on the turret of the Panzer IV H and "puuf" up in smoke it goes. Few things are absolute.
The Firefly can 1 shot a Panther and Tiger at 2000 yards if the shot is at or very near a squared impact. Only the King Tiger is safe, in theory, from the Firefly at 2000 yards. Look it up. None of the M4 tanks are safe at 2000 yards from anything (save maybe the M4/75, T34/76, or M8) if the shot is at or very near a squared impact.
FWIW, I think the Panther is tougher to engage than the Tiger. The Panther has a higher speed, it is faster firing, flatter shooting, has a far faster turret traverse, and actually has better armor up front than that the Tiger. On top of all that is offers a smaller target to dial in and shoot at.
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True, but the Tiger I doesn't have weak spots to exploit, like the lower hull or anything. Park at an oblique angle to your target, and your armor is a lot more effective.
At 35 degrees, that 100mm frontal armor becomes something like 120mm, which is much harder to penetrate, and your 80mm side armor (at 55 degrees, 55 being the complimentary angle to 35 degrees) is actually even thicker (140ish mm thick).
And the Tiger's KwK 36, while not quite as powerfull or flat-shooting as the KwK 42, is still nothing to sneeze at.
So it all comes down to what situations its in, IMO.