Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: uptown on November 28, 2011, 02:03:10 PM
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I've been thinking about learning a German plane for ENY purposes. I need something I can use in all situations, not just fighter mode. So the K4 isn't an option right now. Which one would be the best to learn in and why? :joystick:
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I've been thinking about learning a German plane for ENY purposes. I need something I can use in all situations, not just fighter mode. So the K4 isn't an option right now. Which one would be the best to learn in and why? :joystick:
g14... almost a k4, but can carry bombs.
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I've been thinking about learning a German plane for ENY purposes. I need something I can use in all situations, not just fighter mode. So the K4 isn't an option right now. Which one would be the best to learn in and why? :joystick:
G14 has the most options, 30mm w/gondolas or not, 20mm with gondolas or not, rockets, and bombs...
Has alot of engine power too
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I've been thinking about learning a German plane for ENY purposes. I need something I can use in all situations, not just fighter mode. So the K4 isn't an option right now. Which one would be the best to learn in and why? :joystick:
P-47 will make you a better fighter. :D
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I just took the G14 for a spin in the DA and killed a mossie that had about a 10K alt advantage :lol Yeah I like it. :D Seems like she sucks the fuel down though. What kind of fuel load do you guys pack around? 50% and a DT, 75% .....
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P-47 will make you a better fighter. :D
Been flying the jug off and on for 6 or 7 years. I'm looking to learn a 109 now.And it's the P38 on the American side that'll make you a better pilot imo. :old: ;)
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I just took the G14 for a spin in the DA and killed a mossie that had about a 10K alt advantage :lol Yeah I like it. :D Seems like she sucks the fuel down though. What kind of fuel load do you guys pack around? 50% and a DT, 75% .....
100%. DT rarely for the G14, as I use(d) it more for low alt work compared to the K4.
Unless in a situation where you desperately need every mph you can get, the G14 is actually a slightly better dogfighter than the K4 below 10K
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It didn't take me long to get used to the 30mm ballistics, and if you master the 109K4, there is almost nothing you can't beat. :aok
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I love the G14 myself, really never been much of a K4 fan. Most of my fighter kills are in the P-47 tho, so who knows? :D
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Drop tanks and bombs soak your speed even after dropped, couse of the rack. The speed disadvantage is about 7mph on the deck. If you wanna do some jabo work, the 109 isnt the plane for you.
g14: 100% fuel no gondies, ready to make a couple tater tots. 355mph on the deck, one-shot-one-kill-no-luck-just-skill fun, still wont turn, but at least you can fly very slowly. Snaprolls, vertical torq reversals are your friend.
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I like the 20mm package on the G14 rather then the 30mms. Figured the gondies would be ok for GVs..but don't know. Under 10K and fairly slow is where I'll have to be until I get the flight characteristics down good.
I was really expecting everyone to tell me the G6 was the way to go. :lol I'm glad the G14 was mentioned first actually. Always liked it for some reason. I guess because you don't see all that many guys in them.
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I actually love the G2. I've never really taken much time in any of the others. I have done a little bombing in it but not much. For the most part I only use it for dogfighting and buff hunting and only typically use the gondies for buffs.
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My favorite flight characteristic about the G-14 (besides it's great variety of AA gun/ord packages) is that it's probabley the the fastest climbing aircraft in the game. My least favorite is that it has too much torque (although at times it can be used to an advantage), a competent opponent can make you regret choosing to bring a G-14 to the fight at every turn.
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-F4 is the most fun in my opinion.
:salute
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Flying against the Bf 109G-14, I find it to be a little more nimble in an angles fight as opposed to a Bf 109K-4.
ack-ack
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I actually love the G2. I've never really taken much time in any of the others. I have done a little bombing in it but not much. For the most part I only use it for dogfighting and buff hunting and only typically use the gondies for buffs.
I'm an early 109 fan myself. Twords the end of the war, all das sexay came off the boards of Focke Wulf, but that's another discussion. But the Emils, Friedrichs and early Gustavs are rediculously fun to scrap in if you're not hopelessly outmanned or machined by your opponent(s). I favor the G-2 in a MA furball, I'd love to see the 30mm added to the G-6 someday too, that might be more fun than go-kart with a potatoe gun... o' wait... :devil
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Flying against the Bf 109G-14, I find it to be a little more nimble in an angles fight as opposed to a Bf 109K-4.
ack-ack
at low alts, the g14 performs better in all respects to a k4 except in speed.
It represents a later g6 with the early '44 wep approved clearance, as such it is the same as the g6, even the engine. Only it has been approved to go to higher ATA during wep.
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The Friedrich is a fun turn fighter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F239AGuUpc
The Gustav 14 is great with a single 20mm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53wBiPhEWTU
And if you can figure out the 30mm on it it's very satisfying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oHwfe-OjUw
:x shameless plug
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I flew the g14 for over a year almost exclusively. Its only downside is that with the current crop of players who enjoy running, you will find yourself frequently chasing and failing to catch many of the favored rides in the MA. For this reason alone, I now prefer the K4, as I can catch many of the planes (la7 and a few others are still faster).
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Dolby you make me cry. You wannabe, you :neener:
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Dolby you make me cry. You wannabe, you :neener:
Your so cruel :lol
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I'm surprised more folks don't recommend the 109F-4. The F-4 has OK speed, climbs well, and it is quite good at turning. The F-4 can give a Spit 16 a good run for its money in turning.
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I'm surprised more folks don't recommend the 109F-4. The F-4 has OK speed, climbs well, and it is quite good at turning. The F-4 can give a Spit 16 a good run for its money in turning.
A great plane no doubt and a nasty surprise to the usual TnB suspects ("no way a 109 can follow me!"), but I wouldn't recommend it as an entry for the 109 series in the MA, particularly because of it's relatively low top speed. Also it lacks air to ground capability, so it doesn't meet the basic requirement of being an all-round fighter.
The G-14 is the most versatile model of them all.
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do me a favor and fly the 109 (any of them, well except agent) they way most so called experts fly it. try to rope everybody then whine when I killed you because i stayed just within icon range gaining altitude then i nailed your azzz as you made your last rope :devil.
semp
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I never use drop tanks...when they are dropped the rack that holds the DT takes speed and climb rate down
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I'm an early 109 fan myself. Twords the end of the war, all das sexay came off the boards of Focke Wulf, but that's another discussion. But the Emils, Friedrichs and early Gustavs are rediculously fun to scrap in if you're not hopelessly outmanned or machined by your opponent(s). I favor the G-2 in a MA furball, I'd love to see the 30mm added to the G-6 someday too, that might be more fun than go-kart with a potatoe gun... o' wait... :devil
Emil is the only way to go :)
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109's are incredibly fun to fly. I have no clue what I'm doing when I climb in, I can't see anything and what do all the gauges mean?! But it's a thrill every time, I can't describe it, it's difficulties make the challenge beg to be met! Getting into a knife fight in a 109 is among the most exciting experiences I have when I play this game.
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Not counting the K4, the G2 is the best IMO.
With Gonds on you can still turn fight at a respectable level and pack a serious punch. With out the Gonds the speed, climb and turning ability make for a very compatent fighter. Even vs. late war rides. The G6 to me has the best rudder out of the 109's and really helps with gunnary. The F4 is the best flat turn and burn 109, but is slow. The G-14........well,,,,, might as well fly the K4 :)
(rarly DT in any 109,,drag performance hit is not worth it)
Respectfully
Jeffn
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This thread made me up the good ole perk farmin' G-14 again... 3 G4M, 1 P-47M, 1 P-51D - 12 perks. :banana:
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P-47 will make you a better fighter. :D
THIS! ^
:banana:
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Also it lacks air to ground capability, so it doesn't meet the basic requirement of being an all-round fighter.
Ah, true -- I forgot about that.
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Emil is the only way to go :)
Heh. :aok I like flying it in Battle of Britain. Scenarios determine what I fly in the MA (namely, I mostly fly whatever I'm going to be flying in the scenario), so I have flown the E in the MA a bit, too, and like it just fine.
I thought that one of the hardest planes to fly in the MA would be the 190A's, but they are quite good as long as the fight is more than just one on one, co-alt.
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do me a favor and fly the 109 (any of them, well except agent) they way most so called experts fly it. try to rope everybody then whine when I killed you because i stayed just within icon range gaining altitude then i nailed your azzz as you made your last rope :devil.
semp
Don't inflate your skills, what you do is you run in and pick them as they are fighting another plane.... otherwise you run away
Its simple as that.
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G-2 is the best learning 109......... But make sure NO GONDIES.
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I actually find a skilled G2 or G6 opponent the hardest 109 to dogfight... some guys do some crazy work in those. Personally, I'm a K4 man because I like the vert in it for the quick overshoot, it'll also do some great reversals at the top, and there's a tailslip I can do at low speed and come out nose down at 300mph for a quick getaway. That, and I <3 taters.
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E 4 is most fun to fly :aok
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I never use drop tanks...when they are dropped the rack that holds the DT takes speed and climb rate down
"never"???
Do you know exactly how much speed and climb rate you lose even if the DT is dropped on the runway??? Here is your answer: not enough to worry about. If the wee fewer MPH or ft/min get your 109x shot down then you shouldnt have been in that situation to begin with. ;)
On that note, I dont take up a DT unless I know I'm going up to 20k+ to chase bombers. Likewise, I dont take the gondolas unless I'm doing the same.
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Why pick just one? And frankly I'd include the 190's. Between the 109's and 190's theres a plane for any occasion and variety is, afterall, the spice of life. And unlike other plane model families, the differences here aren't nearly so subtle. Each has a distinctive personality.
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There was a time long ago when some of the most feared air combat gamers flew 109s with lethal results........way back. In recent years the 109s seemed to lose their shine, for whatever reason, and the 109 drivers departed under a cloud of luwftwhiney mischievous deviousness.
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ive always liked the G-14 the most. its the closest thing I can get to a K4. I like that it has gondies so when every single tater misses that easy shot I had the 20s can still do some work. thats a +1...has backup armament
P.S I suck with taters
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Why pick just one? And frankly I'd include the 190's. Between the 109's and 190's theres a plane for any occasion and variety is, afterall, the spice of life. And unlike other plane model families, the differences here aren't nearly so subtle. Each has a distinctive personality.
Cause least is best :)
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Uptown, IMO, you're going to want to fly either the 109G-14 or the 109G-2 depending on the situation. If you need speed, but still want the flexibility of hitting ground targets, take the G15 with the 250kg bomb. If speed is less of a concern, up a G2 with the bomb.
With the G2, you trade a bit of speed and 13mm cowl guns in for vastly improved manuverability and a pair of 7.92mm's.
If however, you want a pure fighter, the 109K4 can't be beat. The engine is powerfull enough to get you out of most tight spots, and she is THE bench-mark for climbrate out of the Axis prop-fighters. Only the spitfire Mk 14 can outclimb it, and just barely at that.
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Why pick just one? And frankly I'd include the 190's. Between the 109's and 190's theres a plane for any occasion and variety is, afterall, the spice of life. And unlike other plane model families, the differences here aren't nearly so subtle. Each has a distinctive personality.
The 190s never have interested me. As a kid I was always day dreamed about the epic P51 VS 109 fight. I've been in the P51 long enough in this game and now I want to see the fight from the 109s POV for awhile. :joystick:
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With the G2, you trade a bit of speed and 13mm cowl guns in for vastly improved manuverability and a pair of 7.92mm's.
If however, you want a pure fighter, the 109K4 can't be beat. The engine is powerfull enough to get you out of most tight spots, and she is THE bench-mark for climbrate out of the Axis prop-fighters. Only the spitfire Mk 14 can outclimb it, and just barely at that.
Okay, first off: "Vastly"???? Try "Marginally".... G-2 has a radius of 636 ft, G-6 has 648 ft.
Secondly: The K-4 isn't really the benchmark. It has a nice sustained climb, but in a combat situation you're not sitting on autopilot. You have zooms, you hang nose-high below best climb speed, etc. The 109K4 isn't nearly as much a UFO as half a dozen other planes in the game, several of them having "Spit" in their name. It is by no means an unstoppable monster. The extra horsepower also adds undesirable low-speed handling qualities that can get it killed if a 109K pilot puts it in the wrong part of its envelope. I think the K-4 is best only if you consider that in the mindset of chasing down late-war monsters with extra speed. Outside that, while I find all 109s capable, I don't see the K-4 as the best overall.
P.S. The G-14 outclimbs the K-4 in most areas below (say) 8-10K.
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Okay, first off: "Vastly"???? Try "Marginally".... G-2 has a radius of 636 ft, G-6 has 648 ft.
Secondly: The K-4 isn't really the benchmark. It has a nice sustained climb, but in a combat situation you're not sitting on autopilot. You have zooms, you hang nose-high below best climb speed, etc. The 109K4 isn't nearly as much a UFO as half a dozen other planes in the game, several of them having "Spit" in their name. It is by no means an unstoppable monster. The extra horsepower also adds undesirable low-speed handling qualities that can get it killed if a 109K pilot puts it in the wrong part of its envelope. I think the K-4 is best only if you consider that in the mindset of chasing down late-war monsters with extra speed. Outside that, while I find all 109s capable, I don't see the K-4 as the best overall.
P.S. The G-14 outclimbs the K-4 in most areas below (say) 8-10K.
I'm with Krusty on this one... the K-4 has fewer tricks in its bag than the G2 or G14. The raw speed ability of the K-4 is what sets it apart from other 109's. It is best used as interceptor, imo.
The F4 and G2 are often over-looked. Both are very capable dog fighters, the thing being the lack of firepower for the quick snap shots is lacking. The F4/G2 need more time on target, so to speak, to get the desired results. The German 20mm is nearly %12-15 less effective than the Hispanos most players are used to per gun, and most players are used to at least dual 20mm not just one. The pair of 8mm MG's are hardly worth mentioning, but they are there to use with plenty of ammo to spare. The differences between the F4 and G2 are as subtle (on paper) as the Spit8 and Spit9, one has slightly more speed and the other has slightly better turn capabilities. The F4 is also a very stable platform to fly and is far less quirky than the G2.
The other thing to make mention of when comparing the 109's is to pay attention to the speed/climb charts. As Krusty pointed out the G14 loses nothing to the K4 down low in climb rates. Also, the G2 is second only to the K4 in speed... at 20k ft. So... read up and learn the 109's. Very little is absolute with them. :aok
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The F4/G2 need more time on target, so to speak, to get the desired results.
I would add for others reading: That's okay, though, because these are some of the more manuverable 109 variants, and they can easily maintain position on a target long enough to get the desired results.
:aok
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Oh come on Krusty.
True, the g14 turns a a bit better. And? Both can get a 38/pony/jak/lala(lala is tough... depends mostly on the pilot), and neither of them can outturn a spit/ki/niki.
Its all about the style. For example, i feel more comfortable in a k-4 vs k-4 duel, with that heavy nose and massive torque i "think" i can control my reversal/tailslide/hammerhead better. Since in my style the ultra.low speed handling play a major role, i dont mind that 5-7% loss in the turn rate as much. Other people like to fight otherwise, so dont get deep conclusions about it. The k4 is the fastest, best climbing prop aircraft between 8 and 25k.
Uptown, i can say one thing: try them all, you will find which one fits the best for your style.
E-4: only for german dudes in leather. Rolls horribly, with medicore turn rate, very slow, poor climbrate, decent firepower but the worst balistics in game.
F-4: a spitfire-trap. Can do 333 on the deck, can climb fairly well, not awsome in sustained turn but can fly slow and turn in a small radius. Can outscissor any spitfire but the mk5. Handles fairly neutral in every situation.
G-2: a pimped up F-4. Climbs very good, does 343 on the deck and 405 at 21k, but loses a bit from the turn rate/radius. Also not as neutral as the F. I never take gondolas, DTs or the bomb. There are better aircrafts for that.
G-6: has 3 thing on the g2: some stability (only the experts will notice), better rear view (also worse over the nose) and a bit better firepower. In the other hand 5mph slower and climbs 200feet/min less than the G-2.
G-14: G-6 on steroids. 355 on the deck (only 311 without wep tho), climbs like crazy, but just like a G-6 above 18k. The loss in the turn rate isnt worse than the G-6s. They handle the same except the torque. Has the tater.
K-4: a rocket. Best climb rate in game, faster than anything else (365 otd), see the characteristics above. Ideal for drag someone away from the horde and finish him, but can hold its own in a many vs many too.
Generally speaking, 109s are light fighters, even the smallest extra weight you put on them will ruin their balance and performance. Bombs, DTs, rockets, gondolas all turn it into a pig. The DT/bomb rack costs you 7mph speed even after you dropped the ords. Even tho the load of ord options can be temptating, i only use the gondies, and only on dedicated bomber huting missions. But the single 30mm gun can get the job done too.
The F may be very good in 1v1 but epicly fails in the many vs many. You need 2-3 passes to finish your opponent what makes you very vulnerable to the pickers. That isnt any better in the g2/6 tho. Gondolas make you very slow and kill your turn/climb rate. The real improvement is the 30mm cannon, but it needs time to get used to. Also it works very well vs light GVs (lvt, m3/8/18, even the panzer4f can be smoked).
There isnt any "jolly joker" amongst the 109s, like the spit16, all of them have advantages and disadvantages.
Now its all on you. Good luck, have fun flying theese little killers <S>
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and she is THE bench-mark for climbrate out of the Axis prop-fighters. Only the spitfire Mk 14 can outclimb it, and just barely at that.
The K-4 isn't really the benchmark. It has a nice sustained climb, but in a combat situation you're not sitting on autopilot. You have zooms, you hang nose-high below best climb speed, etc. The 109K4 isn't nearly as much a UFO as half a dozen other planes in the game, several of them having "Spit" in their name.
:rolleyes: :lol
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I like the 109K4.
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The pair of 8mm MG's are hardly worth mentioning, but they are there to use with plenty of ammo to spare.
Thoughts of a MA Spitfire XVI pilot being attacked by a 109F-4 with no cannon left... :airplane:
"WTF... how can a 109 turn with me??!?!?!?! :furious" ...tiktoktiktaktak... "I'm hit - phew, he only has BB's left :D" ...tiktoktiktaktak... "He's still following me, what kinda crap is this? :furious" *...tiktoktiktaktak *bang*...* "Uh oh, there my left gear :uhoh" ...tiktoktiktaktak *bang*... "MY LEFT FLAP! HELP ME! :pray" tiktoktiktaktak *crack* "Dude, where's my wing? :cry"
Sorry, me being silly again. Meds are kicking in... :x
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The F may be very good in 1v1 but epicly fails in the many vs many. You need 2-3 passes to finish your opponent what makes you very vulnerable to the pickers.
Like some other planes that are somewhat "second rate" in the context of the usual MA engagements, I found the F4 very effective and fun to fly in base defense vs CV attacks. :old:
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Like some other planes that are somewhat "second rate" in the context of the usual MA engagements, I found the F4 very effective and fun to fly in base defense vs CV attacks. :old:
ok imagine a 109F vs spit16 duel... chances are very close arent they... almost the same speed, almost the same handling, almost the same turn, almost the same climbing... ok the spitty has a bit more chance.
now imagine 10 109Fs vs 10 spit16s. Spitfires clearly win. Why? Better guns (one snapshot can be fatal with a much better chance), better visibility (i dont need to explain), better roll rate (easyer to set up a snapshot).
Never said the F cant be fun. But in a CV attack turn rate has a much bigger role. They cant escape/dive away/play "chickens pick n run" as much. Also the F isnt that fast, but accelerates very well.
Got my point? : )
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ok imagine a 109F vs spit16 duel... chances are very close arent they... almost the same speed, almost the same handling, almost the same turn, almost the same climbing... ok the spitty has a bit more chance.
now imagine 10 109Fs vs 10 spit16s. Spitfires clearly win. Why? Better guns (one snapshot can be fatal with a much better chance), better visibility (i dont need to explain), better roll rate (easyer to set up a snapshot).
Never said the F cant be fun. But in a CV attack turn rate has a much bigger role. They cant escape/dive away/play "chickens pick n run" as much. Also the F isnt that fast, but accelerates very well.
Got my point? : )
Did I say anything contrary? :headscratch:
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I like the 109F-4 and G-2 the best of all the 109s to fly. In early war a skilled 109F-4 pilot rules even with the weak gun package.
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I would like to comment on the note that the G-14 is just like the G-6 above 18K. That's not entirely true. While the MW50 best altitude is aroudn 18k, the FTH on the G-6 is 20k. The benefits from the MW50 slowly taper off and it continues being faster than the G-6 all the way up to 20K. Even then it's still a little faster. It still out-climbs the G-6 above FTH, as well. Not by too much, but by a noticable amount.
According to DokGonzo's page the G-6 and G-14 are identical on milpower. According to HTC's graphs, the G-14 is better on milpow. Now, I'm not sure which to trust, as HTC's charts are sometimes useless depending on which arbitrary weight they choose to put on the plane in the chart (it's not always logical, see Fw190F8, see Seafire/spit5)
Gonzo's link: comparing G6 with G14:
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109g6&p2=109g14
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=84&p2=15&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=84&p2=15&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Not that I'm totally disagreeing, just adding to the topic.
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Wow, there's alot of information here so far. I have to say, you guys have peaked my interest in the 109F especially after going a few with Agent360s 109F in the DA this morning..It was quite a surprising little plane to say the least. Definitely a sleeper just begging for a turn fight :joystick: Really looking forward to see what it can do against some of the Spits and KIs down low and real slow. :t
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Shhh! Don't let the secret out! :noid
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you guys have peaked my interest in the 109F
:bhead
:old:
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stupid double posts :bhead
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Shhh! Don't let the secret out! :noid
It's no secret Krusty, some of us have been stall-fighting in the F model since the big flight model update when AH2 went live. I've dueled excellent Spit V pilots with the F and won as often as not. It will give the Spit16 fits, and is a dead even match for the N1K2-J in a low speed scrum. The only secret relates to how to fly the 109s on the edge of a stall in the vertical, and it's a very poorly kept secret at that. Only a handful or fighters can out-turn the 109F (flaps out), but the F is often superior in the vertical, and can grab an insurmountable advantage against the F4Us (except perhaps, the -4) by fighting up-hill.
The G-2 is heavier, and doesn't turn as well. Still it is very capable. A well flown G-2 can handle an La-7, regardless of who is flying it. This forces the La-7 to use its speed to get some separation or die trying to maneuver with it. Where the 109s fall short is their tendency to have controls stiffen up at very high speeds. This, however, can be adjusted for.
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Well I know that, and you know that... but the MA masses don't!
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WideWing has done got me all excited :x
<----tenderly pets fighter stick
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What Widewing said. The F is able to scissor with anything in game except the zero models and the brewster. Especially with less than 50% fuel, real fun. Not a world-beater in the flat turn tho, take care with that.
Just guess that face, another spix thought youre an easy kill :devil luvin that feeling.
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G14 K4 or G6. All the 109s are great birds. Kind of makes me want to come back and auger a few.
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I like the 20mm package on the G14 rather then the 30mms. Figured the gondies would be ok for GVs..but don't know. Under 10K and fairly slow is where I'll have to be until I get the flight characteristics down good.
I was really expecting everyone to tell me the G6 was the way to go. :lol I'm glad the G14 was mentioned first actually. Always liked it for some reason. I guess because you don't see all that many guys in them.
Uptown, the 109 is a very fun plane to learn. It's become my favorite. Some of my thoughts and tips...
All 109 compress in a dive. Not as bad as P-38, but bad. Augering one is easy in the beginning, especially if you're used to flying P-47, P-51, F4Us, F6fs, etc...all of which have no real problems pulling out of a dive. The G-14 is noticebly worse in a dive than a K4. I fly K4s a lot, and eveytime I get in a G-14 I managed to fly one into the ground. Because of this, 109 are not always at an advantage when coming in too high above a target. It's very easy to overshoot in a dive. Tip: Ride the rudder, and chop throttle on the way down to control the speed to 400mph or below. Because of the need to do this, 109s bleed a lot of E when diving. Chasing F4U or other planes to the deck should be avoided as they can handle the speed and turn it back into alt when they pull up. A chasing 109 will either hit the ground, or have to bleed to much (to maintain control) to stay with them when they pull up, so they will have an e advantage after the pull out. Also if you manage to stay in control it will be limited as you get close and pass 450mph. They will pull up in front of you and you won't be able to follow due to the unresponsive controls [it feels like your flying with one elevator, or a half an elevator]. This makes for an easy reversal for the bandit, as he rolls the plane and drops back onto your six.
Because of this, and the great climb rate, 109 are best getting in fights with planes that close co-alt or even slightly above them. They turn well and like American Planes have very useful flaps with 5 settings. The roll rate is also very good. The 109 maneuvers best in vertical, meaning keep it's nose pointed above the horizon. When you can, reverse by going up and over, and high yo-yoing, not making flat turns around the corner. Very few planes (other than the P-38) can hang for long with a 109 when it's nose up and changing direction. So the best way to dog fight a 109 is agressive early maneuvers to get your opponents to bleed E by turning and reversing. I find it to be an excellent plane at Rolling scissors. When e states are low, start working vertical. Then play the angles to avoid their gun solution while you use its tremendous power to weight, and climb advantage to work yourself back into an e advantage. Use the flaps to turn tight at stall speed for close range <300 yds crossing shots. This is where taters earn their reputation.
Get good with the taters. They are the definitive gun in the 109. The 20mm does not have enough firepower for snap shots so you will be forced to saddle up bandits and match course long enough to hit them with enough rounds from a lone 20mm to kill them. This is fine in 1v1 battles but leads to lots of assissts and getting picked in the MA furball culture. The 30mm is the most devistating gun n the game. A 1 second burst burps out 5-7 rounds, only one of which is required to down the vast majority of fighters. The 30mm is also great at de-acking a field. A tater or two in the dirt circle around a field gun will destroy it. No need to use hose it, or hit the gun itself like you have to do with .50 cal. You can take down 10 field guns with 65 rounds.
I avoid trying to saddle up planes in a 109 because the plane and 30mm are so good at setting up, and scoring victories on close range crossing shots. But The 109 can saddle most American planes and stay with them. Spits and other turny birds become a problem. From the six position, taters are best held until you know you're going to land them. chasing bandits around firing taters at them is not the best use of taters imo. This is often why people complain about not be able to land them. 109s turn OK, but it's tough to pull enough lead from the six position, in a tight turn fight to land a tater, because of poor ballistics. Use the two 12.7mm in these situation. You may get lucky enough with them to cause enough damage to get a victory, but what really happens is the sustained hits will usually cause the bandit to reverse, right into an easy gun solution for 1 second tater burst on the cross over. Boom.
So always have two triggers set up. One for the 12.7mm, and one for 30mm. Use each when appropriate.
As for drop tanks... The 109 is sluggish on 100% fuel, but it doesn't carry a lot of fuel. You will burn 25% on climbout going to a base 1 sector away. So if you think your going to run into bandits on the way, take a drop tank. I alway take a drop tank and 50%. The drop tank is big and provides a ton of range. But it's heavy and adds a lot of drag to the plane so expect climb to be cut to about 3K/min. Then when bandits show up, drop it and your light for fighting, with about 15-17 minutes of mil-wep power. A K4 can run WEP for >25% of it's fuel load. It may actually be closer to half. So there's no need to use it conservatively. If you run out of gas a 109 has great glide characteristics. Nose it down, feather the prop, and set angle-mode auto-pilot for a descent rate of 1k/min, and a 109 will glide at 150-200pmh. So from 7K, you can glide for 7 minutes at an average speed of 175mph. That's 17+ miles. I've landed many a dead stick 109 from a long way off.
Happy hunting. :salute
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109's are incredibly fun to fly. I have no clue what I'm doing when I climb in, I can't see anything and what do all the gauges mean?! But it's a thrill every time, I can't describe it, it's difficulties make the challenge beg to be met! Getting into a knife fight in a 109 is among the most exciting experiences I have when I play this game.
The Luft ball and needle is my favorite single guage for flight in the game. Learn it, master it, love it.
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The Luft ball and needle is my favorite single guage for flight in the game. Learn it, master it, love it.
I have to admit, for me it's the most ignored instrument of them all. I never ever have actually used it beyond the initial "wuts this?" moment :lol
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Wow, there's alot of information here so far. I have to say, you guys have peaked my interest in the 109F especially after going a few with Agent360s 109F in the DA this morning..It was quite a surprising little plane to say the least. Definitely a sleeper just begging for a turn fight :joystick: Really looking forward to see what it can do against some of the Spits and KIs down low and real slow. :t
Late uninvited guests will frequently crash your party, otherwise it'll keep going usualy until you say so (or your dancing partner gives up and runs home). Keep SA up so you don't get roped and doped constantly out of good fights. People will see you knife fighting and think "a low, slow, and unwary late-model 109" and dive straight for a pick.
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The Luft ball and needle is my favorite single guage for flight in the game. Learn it, master it, love it.
The turn coordinator?
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I wept when they took the gondies off the Franz.
I like the 109 series - they're a match up for any contemporary opponent. I've spent my share of time in them, and for *me* their biggest drawback is the ammo load, so I'll as often as not take gondies - and I don't hunt buffs. :joystick:
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I have to admit, for me it's the most ignored instrument of them all. I never ever have actually used it beyond the initial "wuts this?" moment :lol
So did I until I started getting into stall fighting in 190s, especially crucial was it over a year ago when I first seriously picked up the 152 for a MA tour. At times in flight, on the edge of a stall, most of the time I can anticiapte and "feel" what the plane is doing and what/where is wants to do. But, since this is a virtual simulation, that gut feeling is far from ideal. Often at times, I'm not sure of where the state of the aircraft is at, either completley or partialy - so I just think I am OK and confident in that. One quick glance, and I'm assured "OK, I'm on/slipping/off, I can/have-to X because I can/can't do Y...".
It's also very helpful for high-altitude work, as one wide bank turn can suck up a lot more energy than another similar wide banking turn.
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The turn coordinator?
The turn bank coordinator (? - not positive) - yes. Although most people I know refer to all such devices as "ball and needle". The german version in-game differs from most the others with a yaw-indicator(?), I believe.
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The turn bank coordinator (? - not positive) - yes. Although most people I know refer to all such devices as "ball and needle". The german version in-game differs from most the others with a yaw-indicator(?), I believe.
Yes thats what I meant. Ok wasnt sure had never heard of it referred to as that. I havent spent alot of time in 109's but will look closer next time.
Thank ya sir! :salute
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I like this thread...I had some questions myself but they have been answered within...bring on the new year WOOP WOOP !!!!
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I wept when they took the gondies off the Franz.
For me it was the bomb rack I miss most. Gondolas I can understand, but the bomb? Even F-2s were running bombs and F-4s as well. JG2 was running them across the channel to bomb the UK to draw out fighters, then engaging with fighters when they upped. Kind of like a reverse "Circus" that the RAF flew over France.
I even skinned one of those planes (10/JG2) and IMO I always liked the history behind it. I miss those bombs. Wish they'd bring them back.
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For me it was the bomb rack I miss most. Gondolas I can understand, but the bomb? Even F-2s were running bombs and F-4s as well. JG2 was running them across the channel to bomb the UK to draw out fighters, then engaging with fighters when they upped. Kind of like a reverse "Circus" that the RAF flew over France.
I even skinned one of those planes (10/JG2) and IMO I always liked the history behind it. I miss those bombs. Wish they'd bring them back.
For me it was both gondies and the bomb but more the gondolas... at the moment I'm not sure of the number of F4-B's that were produced ...but there were 220 F4 R6's from the factory, not field mods, that's more than some entire plane productions that are in the game and we should have the choice to use them in the hanger
I have a 400+- page handbuch on the F2/F4 that describes the mounting postion and the bolts to use for the under wing pods.
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/Bf109f4-r6linedrawing.gif)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/109F-4R620mmgunpods.jpg)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/109f4-r6.jpg)
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Man up Nancy and fly a c.205, it's a mans plane!
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Man up Nancy and fly a c.205, it's a mans plane!
I flew the 205 when I 1st came back to AH <as a beginner >... its to limited.
Now the C202... that's a mans plane!
Nancy,
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I still miss my old G-10 :(
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Man up Nancy and fly a c.205, it's a mans plane!
i did.....then i got me a job and got off da welfare so dat i could afford me one of dose shinny and kwellll K$'s with the tater chucker!!!!
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I flew the 205 when I 1st came back to AH <as a beginner >... its to limited.
Now the C202... that's a mans plane!
Agreed. 205 is a pig. Gentlemen prefer the 202.
We now take you back to our 109 discussion.
- oldman
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Okay, first off: "Vastly"???? Try "Marginally".... G-2 has a radius of 636 ft, G-6 has 648 ft.
Secondly: The K-4 isn't really the benchmark. It has a nice sustained climb, but in a combat situation you're not sitting on autopilot. You have zooms, you hang nose-high below best climb speed, etc. The 109K4 isn't nearly as much a UFO as half a dozen other planes in the game, several of them having "Spit" in their name. It is by no means an unstoppable monster. The extra horsepower also adds undesirable low-speed handling qualities that can get it killed if a 109K pilot puts it in the wrong part of its envelope. I think the K-4 is best only if you consider that in the mindset of chasing down late-war monsters with extra speed. Outside that, while I find all 109s capable, I don't see the K-4 as the best overall.
P.S. The G-14 outclimbs the K-4 in most areas below (say) 8-10K.
Krusty, theres other areas of manuverability besides turn rate, though I will admit 'vastly' may have been overstating the case. The G6 just feels sluggish when you're going up into a loop for some reason, as well as when you start to get slower (as is the natural tendency in a fight). The G6 also feels sluggish in climb (I know this is largely a precieved deficency, but perception can effect the results) and acceleration. So yes, while the G-6 may not be much worse under ideal conditions, the G2 still displays better manuverability and handling (handling is a big reason why spitfires are so easy to fly. They don't have any nasty tendencies if you're just a bit too rough with the stick).
You're not sitting on autopilot with a spitfire either. Spit can do some nice climbing tricks, but they still usually get beaten out by a skilled K4 stick. And the K4's engine allows you to very quickly generate engergy, which is a very usefull trait under any circumstances. That energy (be it in the form of speed or altitude) can be converted into either a possitional advantage over an opponent, or bled off in the form of combat manuvering. The undesirable effects on low speed handling (easily avoided or compensated for if you know whats coming, as is true with all planes) is well worth the benefits you get in combat.
By the way, the G-14 barely outclimbs the 109K between about 4000' and 7500', and never gains an edge after. For example, at 25,000', the G14 is hanging around 2000ft/min, while the K4 is still at 3000ft/min. So you would be taking a very minimal increase at an altitude band of less than 4000', for markedly inferior preformance at higher altitude.
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My favorite plane in the game is the 109F. It is stable, controllable - very good around stalling speeds. You can control the aircraft after it stalls to some extent. You can induce stall turns easily, too. The aircraft accelerates better than most and can dive at 400 mph and still be controllable - which some don't expect. I am still a journeyman AH pilot, but if I have any chance of getting good, it will be in this plane. The guns aren't as much of a handicap as you'd think, either - except in 1 vs 2 or 3 situations. That 20mm centerline cannon with the 200 round clip is lethal against fighters. I wince when I have to intercept bombers in the F, though. It almost always takes a radiator hit and doesn't really have the weight of shot to bring one down easily. Learning this aircraft is a labor of love. If I could date the F, I would.
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I flew the F model tonight after work. Killed the only 3 planes I encountered. A yak, 47n and a damned D3A of all things. Well actually I didn't kill the D3A as he ran to his ack when I was about to finish him off. And like a dummy I followed him in it and got popped. But I was very pleased with the plane. I've been playing this game since tour 75 or 76 and I have never once flown this little gem they call the 109F. Shame on me. :lol It was ablast to fly. The guns are pretty weak, but half of that is probably my gunnery skills aren't up to par either. It doesn't flat turn to the right very well, but other then that the 109F is a down in the dirt dogfighter for sure. I like it almost as much as the G14!
Another thing I was wondering is: I rarely fly anywhere full throttle. I use the gauges and set the RPMs and manifold pressure at the normal cruise setting from the E6B. But I've noticed that one of the 109s gauges (rpms i think :headscratch:) is covered up by, ....i guess it's part of the gunsight. Is that the correct cockpit modeling? Surely not. It's not so bad in the G14, but in the 109F you can't see the gauge at all.
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That's one of my pet peeves with how HTC is obscuring a number of dials/readouts in some cockpits.
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Its the othet way around, the G14 has one covered and in the 109F u can see all the gauges.
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I believe in RL, the sight mount thing did swivel 90 degrees, so that if you were not using it, it could be turned off.
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I believe in RL, the sight mount thing did swivel 90 degrees, so that if you were not using it, it could be turned off.
ahhh that makes sense.
And you are correct ScottyK, it is the G14 gauge I was wondering about.