Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: olds442 on December 31, 2011, 12:07:54 PM
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We need a german bomber that can defend it self to mabey return home, i understand how it preformed in the field (always brecking, etc) so do what you did with the B29 perk it i dont care i want this bomber!
spec's:
Origin: Ernst Heinkel AG, also built by Arado Flugzeugwerke.
Type: He177, six seat heavy-bomber and missle carrier
Engines: Two 2,950hp Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1, each comprising two inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled engines geared to one propellor.
Dimensions: Span 103ft 1 3/4 in (31.44m); length 72ft 2in (22m); height 21ft (6.4m)
Weights: Empty 37,038lb (16,800kg); loaded (A-5) 68,343lb (31,000kg)
Performance: Maximum speed (at 41,000lb) 295mph (472 km/h); initial climb 853ft (260m)/min; service ceiling 26,500ft (7080m); range with FX or Hs293 missles (no bombs) about 3,107 miles (5000km)
Armament: (A-5/R-2) one 7.92mm MG 81J manually aimed in nose, one MG131 in forward dorsal turret, one MG 131 in rear dorsal turret, one MG 151 manually aimed in the tail and two MG 81 or one MG 131 manually aimed at rear of gondola; maximum internal bombload 13,200lb (6000kg), seldom carried. External load: two Hs293 guided missiles, FX 1400 guided bombs, mines or torpedoes (more if internal bay blanked off and racks added below it.)
Users: Germany (Luftwaffe)
OTHER INFO from the website.
Arado built 130 A-1s, followed by 170 Heinkel built A-3s, and 826 A-5s, which had repositioned engines and a longer fuselage. About 700 Greifs served on the Eastern Front, many of these having 50mm and 75mm guns for tank-busting duties. A few even (nervously) bombed England in 400mph shallow dives, without any proper aiming for their bombs. The aircraft proved so bothersome that Goering had to forbid Heinkel to pester him any more with plans to use four separate engines! But Heinkel secretly flew the He277 with four 1-750hp DB 603A at Vienna, as the first of a major production programme. The almost completly redesigned He274 was a high-altitude bomber developed at the Farman factory at Suresnes, with four 1,850hp engines, a 145ft wing and twin fins. After the liberation, it was readied for flight, and flown at Orleans-Bricy.
Perhaps the scariest fact about the He177 was the fact that one was secretely being readied in Czechoslovakia to carry the planned German Atomic bomb. It is quite possible that, if it weren't for a few brave Norwegian saboteurs, Adolf Hitler would have had a prepared Atomic bomb towards the war's end. I have no further information on that special He177, and I would like anyone with any to please send it to me.
Charles Bain
website it self>>>http://www.simviation.com/fsdcbainhe177.htm
wekipedia page>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177
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What would be appropriate, Aces High style, bombload options for the He177A-5? What sorts of loads were typical during the mini-Blitz? Usually the He177A-5 is listed with a confusing and contradictory mix of extremely different bombs.
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Even with all the pretty pictures it is still a dog.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/00048691.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/00048701.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/BU6F1B1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-668-7161-31A_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-668-7162-06A_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177_Fahrgestell.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-668-7163-14_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-668-7163-24A_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-668-7163-25A_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-668-7164-35A_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7969A-23_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7969A-24_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7969A-25_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177_mit_Tarnanstrich.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7970A-23_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7971A-12_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177_Pilot.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7971A-23_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177_A.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7972A-04_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7972A-14_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-676-7972A-19_Flugzeug_Heinkel_He_177_Fahrgestell.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/HE%20177/file014.jpg)
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+1
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i think its pretty damn cool lookin :aok
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i think its pretty damn cool lookin :aok
Cool looking yes. :aok
As far as it's real life usefulness in WWII?? .... A dog.
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moin
what is the definition of usefulness?
you can thay all ouer weapens in wwII are useless because we lost the war ;).
if the he177 were used in numbers like the he111 or ju 88 and all the early problems of this typ were fixed the allied airforces did have been a problem to stop the Luftwaffen camains.
the he 177 must be the fastes Luftwaffe Bomber with the heavyst loadout and the biges range, im sure it would be a nice addition to Aces High.
cu christian
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moin
what is the definition of usefulness?
you can thay all ouer weapens in wwII are useless because we lost the war ;).
if the he177 were used in numbers like the he111 or ju 88 and all the early problems of this typ were fixed the allied airforces did have been a problem to stop the Luftwaffen camains.
the he 177 must be the fastes Luftwaffe Bomber with the heavyst loadout and the biges range, im sure it would be a nice addition to Aces High.
cu christian
OK for an example this is a dive bomber that could not dive bomb just to name an issue that was never solved. :O I have no bias as to who won or who lost the war as a reason why an aircraft should or should not be included.
The problems of this aircraft were numerous & never were resolved & there is the problem for AHII. It would show up as a great bomber that would have none of it's inherit issues.
Now if they can program in all of it's real life issues that never were solved :headscratch: sure put it in I have no issue with that. :aok
Reading a book about operation Lusty when it came time to fly this plane they asked German crews to fly it. A number of German pilots were working with the Americans & were getting paid to do so & they all said no.
Reason being? Responce was we had to fly it before & we did not have a choice. No amount of money would make them fly it post war if they had the option.
Very telling I think.
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Originally stated by Captain Eric Brown:
...positive about all axes, but the controls were all remarkably light for such a large aircraft. Indeed I had the feeling that the elevator was dangerously light and I was all too aware of the intelligence reports of He 177s breaking up in the air so I decided to treat this control very gently... The aircraft had an automatic pull-out device and an acceleration warning apparatus fitted, but it really was nailbiting to have to treat a giant like this immense Heinkel bomber as if it was made of glass. The stalling characteristics with flaps and undercarriage lowered the aircraft buffeted violently at 140 km/h (87 mph) before the nose dropped at 135 km/h (84 mph). The buffet experienced was so violent that I had some concerns over structural damage. Somehow the He 177 always conveyed an impression of fragility despite its size."
....
"one of the very few German aircraft of the period that I tested that I did not enjoy flying"
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I VOTE....(two butions on the table ones green and ones red) *ding* GREEEN +100000000 :O :lol
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+1 to the 177.
Using it's engine flaws to say no, bologna. The B-29 is a prime example. It had constant engine problems during the war, ours does not. So saying no to the 177 simply because of it's inherit engine issues (being the primary reason people use for saying no to it) is quite frankly, BS.
So again, +1 to the 177. HOWEVER, I'd much rather see other German bombers added before hand. The He-111 H-11 and the Do-17 Z-2 are the two I would like to see first. :aok
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B-29's engine problems pale in comparison to the He177's.
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It looks like the B29's retarded half-brother
+20
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+1
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I'd like to have it at some point.
As for the reasons as to not add it...
(I.E) "Oh but it had SO MANY problems!"
None of our planes have problems, with anything mechanical, you cant single one thing out mechanically, (like engine problems) You can single out inherent structual weaknesses like weak landing gear in the Ki84 and N1K2 (try cranking on the differential braking if you don't believe me on these) But in our world our cartoon mechanics do a wonderful job of properly maintain our aircraft.
In essense this will always be a depated topic, but think of the firestorm that would result if you were flying a plane and it suddenly caught fire, because it was "prone to" Not fun for me, not fun for anyone else. as a result it isnt modeled, which makes sense.
Also as a result it's a silly basis to make an argument for. N1K2..engine reliabilty issues, Ki84, B29, P47M, Typhoon, Tempest, Me262, Me163, Meteor (which was in the vote) early 190's, and I'm sure the list goes on...
+1 to the addition. It would give the axis their only heavy bomber, its very fast at reasonable altitudes, defensive armament is powerful, especially at the rear, it carries a very flexible and fairly large ords loadout, and it (so I've read) has very unique handling for a bomber it's size. Perk it? sure, but we dont have an inexpensive perked bomber, and I believe this is a perfect addition for that.
p.s. How many P47m's were made Vs. He 177's and how can you justify engine reliability as a result, and how many engine failures Vs flight hours? There are too many questions unanswered on the subject that isn't modeled anyway's so its still a moot point.
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Very hard to find a glowing report of this aircraft any place.
http://www.aviastar.org/gallery/234.html
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=545
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_he177.html
http://simviation.com/fsdcbainhe177.htm
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/he177.html
http://www.aircraftaces.com/heinkel-177.htm
http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/08/heinkel-he-177.html
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/bomber/heinkel-he-177-greif.asp
http://www.aviationartstore.com/7He-177-9-1-11.htm
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I'd like to have it at some point.
As for the reasons as to not add it...
(I.E) "Oh but it had SO MANY problems!"
None of our planes have problems, with anything mechanical, you cant single one thing out mechanically, (like engine problems) You can single out inherent structual weaknesses like weak landing gear in the Ki84 and N1K2 (try cranking on the differential braking if you don't believe me on these) But in our world our cartoon mechanics do a wonderful job of properly maintain our aircraft.
In essense this will always be a depated topic, but think of the firestorm that would result if you were flying a plane and it suddenly caught fire, because it was "prone to" Not fun for me, not fun for anyone else. as a result it isnt modeled, which makes sense.
Also as a result it's a silly basis to make an argument for. N1K2..engine reliabilty issues, Ki84, B29, P47M, Typhoon, Tempest, Me262, Me163, Meteor (which was in the vote) early 190's, and I'm sure the list goes on...
+1 to the addition. It would give the axis their only heavy bomber, its very fast at reasonable altitudes, defensive armament is powerful, especially at the rear, it carries a very flexible and fairly large ords loadout, and it (so I've read) has very unique handling for a bomber it's size. Perk it? sure, but we dont have an inexpensive perked bomber, and I believe this is a perfect addition for that.
p.s. How many P47m's were made Vs. He 177's and how can you justify engine reliability as a result, and how many engine failures Vs flight hours? There are too many questions unanswered on the subject that isn't modeled anyway's so its still a moot point.
Engine problems were just one problem. Read some of the links I posted they did not even bother to uncrate some of these planes even when Germany was desperate for aircraft. Why well one report that is in one of those links sums it up.
It is useless as a bomber.
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According to the 4+ Publications book on the Ta152 (from 2009 iirc) the He177 was the only Luftwaffe aircraft which could reach target untroubled by Soviet fighters during Op Zitadelle in '43. It was fast enough and had a defensive fire capacity to be difficult to intercept and a challenge to shoot down.
It would indeed be a awesome (and somewhat exotic) addition to the game. A very nice and welcome change to the AH bomber inventory otherwise so heavily dominated by allied designs.
:aok
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It is useless as a bomber.
:lol
One RLM specification which made the design work that much more challenging to the engineers, was the capacity for dive bombing which was complete bull from operational usefulness point of view.
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With over 1000 planes built it's very hard to justify not including it at some point.
And regardless of it's problems, some can/will be modeled, and some not so much (in alignment with other aircraft) (I would assume)
So there really isnt any reason not too add it as a wish, I'd like everything to be added! and this isn't my first wish (but I'm not really a buff pilot) but I'd certainly want to fly it.
How would you justify not adding a plane that was built in numbers, and used frequently? What changes would you make to it if it was included? (to make it more...realistic)
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With over 1000 planes built it's very hard to justify not including it at some point.
And regardless of it's problems, some can/will be modeled, and some not so much (in alignment with other aircraft) (I would assume)
So there really isnt any reason not too add it as a wish, I'd like everything to be added! and this isn't my first wish (but I'm not really a buff pilot) but I'd certainly want to fly it.
How would you justify not adding a plane that was built in numbers, and used frequently? What changes would you make to it if it was included? (to make it more...realistic)
Read the links 1000 built 200 used in combat the rest left to rust.
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According to the 4+ Publications book on the Ta152 (from 2009 iirc) the He177 was the only Luftwaffe aircraft which could reach target untroubled by Soviet fighters during Op Zitadelle in '43. It was fast enough and had a defensive fire capacity to be difficult to intercept and a challenge to shoot down.
It would indeed be a awesome (and somewhat exotic) addition to the game. A very nice and welcome change to the AH bomber inventory otherwise so heavily dominated by allied designs.
:aok
Bring in axis bombers that worked first then get exotic.
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:lol
One RLM specification which made the design work that much more challenging to the engineers, was the capacity for dive bombing which was complete bull from operational usefulness point of view.
What I wrote was not my words but the Germans them selves in regards to the HE-177 overall performance.
Useless.
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Read the links 1000 built 200 used in combat the rest left to rust.
It is still no reason to draw the conclusion it was a bad design lacking potential. How many Me262s were built, how many saw combat, how many actually shot down enemy a/c? With your reasoning, we really should get rid of the 262. :rolleyes:
And I'm still laughing at your 'useless' conclusion. It may have been to the germans during WW2 because they really didn't need that type of a/c from late '43 onwards, they needed capable bomber interceptors. It would be far from useless in Aces High. Don't confuse WW2 with this game.
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It did work. Reliable compared with some other aircraft...no, but it did work.
So...whats your point?
and by work..It flew, it dropped bombs, it shot at enemy fighters, it crashed some, it prolly shot something down...etc...uhh what are you looking for here?
...or are you just defending a point because you made it? Might be an unpopular aircraft from their crew standpoint, but...HEY we dont have that problem! So again whats your point?
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It is still no reason to draw the conclusion it was a bad design lacking potential. How many Me262s were built, how many saw combat, how many actually shot down enemy a/c? With your reasoning, we really should get rid of the 262. :rolleyes:
Now your grasping for straws stay on topic. Better still read the links I posted argue with German crews that did not want to fly it because it was a death trap.
Facts are very hard things just to forget about.
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It did work. Reliable compared with some other aircraft...no, but it did work.
So...whats your point?
and by work..It flew, it dropped bombs, it shot at enemy fighters, it crashed some, it prolly shot something down...etc...uhh what are you looking for here?
...or are you just defending a point because you made it? Might be an unpopular aircraft from their crew standpoint, but...HEY we dont have that problem! So again whats your point?
Have it in game I don't care just design it like the pig it was.
We have asked for the He-111 for many many years now do we have it :headscratch: No.
So good luck seeing this included any time soon.
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Facts are very hard things just to forget about.
Fact: AH is a game in which the He177 would make a valued contribution.
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Have it in game I don't care just design it like the pig it was.
We have asked for the He-111 for many many years now do we have it :headscratch: No.
So good luck seeing this included any time soon.
I never asked for it soon
I did state that I would like to see it eventually
The He-111 has nothing to do with this post
I think it fills a bomber gap in terms of performance (in our game)
It would be fun to fly :)
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i full heartly agree that the HE-111 is needed first but it would be unused in the MA this bomber could be used by the luft boys.
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The problem I have with the He177A-5 is that, on paper, it would be a far, far better bomber than the in reality much superior B-17G and Lancaster Mk III we have in AH. This makes me concerned that we would end up in a situation where the "absolutely no impact, best contribution was to draw fire during Allied straffing attacks by being such a large, tempting target" He177 was the dominant bomber in AH. That strikes me as absurd. I would much rather see the H8K2 'Emily' or Piaggio P.108 as the Axis heavy bomber.
Which leads back to the question I posted on the first page, what would its bomb load options look like in AH?
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This makes me concerned that we would end up in a situation where the "absolutely no impact, best contribution was to draw fire during Allied straffing attacks by being such a large, tempting target" He177 was the dominant bomber in AH.
Well, there are some other planes that have in AH a role MUCH more significant than in RL. Most notably the Me 163. In terms of engine reliability, we could also argue about the Me 262.
Just to make clear, I'm very torn about it when it comes to the possible addition of the He 177 for the same reasons as you. However, it's not without precedence and IMHO quite in line with the past HT policy.
Which leads back to the question I posted on the first page, what would its bomb load options look like in AH?
Some typical loadouts:
48x50kg
12x250kg
6x500kg
6x1000kg
2x1800kg
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The problem I have with the He177A-5 is that, on paper, it would be a far, far better bomber than the in reality much superior B-17G and Lancaster Mk III we have in AH. This makes me concerned that we would end up in a situation where the "absolutely no impact, best contribution was to draw fire during Allied straffing attacks by being such a large, tempting target" He177 was the dominant bomber in AH. That strikes me as absurd.
You mean much like the 262 is applied in AH? Its presence can certainly be considered absurd. Yet we are used to it. The B17 may have been practical and the He177 may not have been, but the B17 was also a 1935 design while the He177 was a 1942 design. A lot of tooling and technology development happened between those years and Germany was the world leader in machine tooling. Also consider that the a/c in question can be perked, like the 262 and B29.
People also conveniently forget that the withdrawal of the He177 fleet from service can be attributed just as much (if not more) to fuel shortages and industrial manufacturing challenges as the aircraft itself. The Luftwaffe simply had no fuel, nor pilots, to maintain a bomber fleet. These problems should not be translated into aircraft shortcomings.
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Well, there are some other planes that have in AH a role MUCH more significant than in RL. Most notably the Me 163. In terms of engine reliability, we could also argue about the Me 262.
I agree, and can name other examples. However, none of them are as egregious as the He177 being the main heavy bomber over the B-17, B-24 and Lancaster would be. The dominant fighters are the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI (LF.Mk IXe) and La-7. Only the three gun La-7 is egregious in that list.
Some typical loadouts:
48x50kg
12x250kg
6x500kg
6x1000kg
2x1800kg
None of those seem too bad. Depending on its survivability it shouldn't be a threat to the Lancaster's position and may not be a threat to the B-17's either. It should be modeled as being structurally fragile unlike the other heavy bombers I would think.
You mean much like the 262 is applied in AH? Its presence can certainly be considered absurd. Yet we are used to it. The B17 may have been practical and the He177 may not have been, but the B17 was also a 1935 design while the He177 was a 1942 design. A lot of tooling and technology development happened between those years and Germany was the world leader in machine tooling.
The Me262 is rare in AH and is not dominant. None of the other stuff you mention is relevant.
Also consider that the a/c in question can be perked, like the 262 and B29.
Aircraft are only perked for performance, not rarity. It would be sheerly absurd to have the He177 modeled as being so good it has to be perked.
People also conveniently forget that the withdrawal of the He177 fleet from service can be attributed just as much (if not more) to fuel shortages and industrial manufacturing challenges as the aircraft itself. The Luftwaffe simply had no fuel, nor pilots, to maintain a bomber fleet. These problems should not be translated into aircraft shortcomings.
The German pilots refused to fly it post war. Would. Not. Fly. It. For. Pay. That was not true of any other German non-rocket aircraft.
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None of those seem too bad. Depending on its survivability it shouldn't be a threat to the Lancaster's position and may not be a threat to the B-17's either. It should be modeled as being structurally fragile unlike the other heavy bombers I would think.
I disagree on the structure. The structure itself was quite durable, as it was designed for dive bombing. While this proved to be still not practicable, the frame strength should still be at elast average, if not above average for a plane of it's class. It allowed the He 177 to fly a unique and very fast egress profile in the Steinbock attacks 1944.
It would be different for the engines though. While general reliability isn't modeled, engines can be very susceptible to damage. Best example are the Me 262's Jumo engines, which get smoked even with a few .303 pings. If that would be modeled in a similar way for the He 177, it would offset any speed/loadout structure advantages quite a bit. If ya lose one of only two engines in a heavy bomber... :uhoh
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Eric Brown seems to have understood it to be fragile and that he had to be careful with the elevators as they were light to the touch.
I agree with the idea of modeling the engines as very fragile. I'd suggest that the fuselage structure be modeled as weak for its size as well.
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Eric Brown seems to have understood it to be fragile and that he had to be careful with the elevators as they were light to the touch.
He had read intelligence reports about it and was careful when actually diving that plane. I also know no German reports of the He 177 being weak, just not "strong enough" for it's intended dive bombing role. That doesn't make it a structural weak airplane. He 177 was also suffering, like basically all late war German planes, from varying production quality, we do not have that simulated in other planes either.
As I stated before, the strength of it's frame allowed the He 177 to have significantly lower losses than other bombers taking part, not at least due to the fact that it returned from England in a shallow dive at (for bombers) very high speeds. Armor and structure help vs AA fire too. The weak points were the engines and the horribly low experience level of both aircrews as well as maintenance personnel, which all contributed to a high number of aborts due to technical failures.
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The Me262 is rare in AH and is not dominant. None of the other stuff you mention is relevant.Aircraft are only perked for performance, not rarity. It would be sheerly absurd to have the He177 modeled as being so good it has to be perked.
The issue was raised by another poster that the performance ingame would not be representative of it's actual war-time performance and I suggested perking as a counterweight. Not saying that these fears for uber-performance was justified in the first place.
The German pilots refused to fly it post war. Would. Not. Fly. It. For. Pay. That was not true of any other German non-rocket aircraft.
Now that's not relevant either. And to say that the He177 was structurally weak? :rolleyes:
I'm largely of the same opinion as Lusche. However the He177 is not deserving to be added any more than a few dozen other aircraft that all played important roles in the air war. So the bickering about details regarding the He177 is a little over the top imho.
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Guys jest say Yes OR No if you think the bomber is "OK" for HTC to add because all i see now is details details details. :salute :salute
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Guys jest say Yes OR No if you think the bomber is "OK" for HTC to add because all i see now is details details details. :salute :salute
um the details are good.
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If people can use the Lancaster to dive bomb, then add the He-177, besides it would be great to have 109s and 90s escorting it (soon 410s)
Got my vote only after He-111 is added :D
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+1 for more German Bombers.