Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Brownien on March 14, 2012, 10:27:44 PM
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why not add some? we have plenty of perfectly good water just lying around! they could spawn out of ports or frm a cv.
A6M2-N Rufe we already have the Zero modeled, why not add floats?
N1K1 Kyofu U.S. codename Rex, 97 units were built
H8K Emily Flying Boat could act as a bomber or a torpedo bomber
PBY Catalina
with the addition of using seaplanes from Ports, missions could be conducted from them or they could be a bit easier to defend.Carrier groups could possibly spawn seaplanes from the cruiser or something. this would open up another possibilty of offensive tactics such as bombing raids using flying boats, escorted by floatplanes! :x For landing, a series of buoys could outline a strip or a location for safely ending a sortie, or just landing near the carrier like PT boats.
And if we do get subs then we would have somewhere to launch some Aichi M6A Seirans from! :banana: :banana: :banana:
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Start small... floatplanes are good because we already have 3-4 feet of depth in the water modeled-- see PT boat and LVTs.
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Start small... floatplanes are good because we already have 3-4 feet of depth in the water modeled-- see PT boat and LVTs.
Its deeper than that, I had a tank fall through the ground and by the time I .ef I was somewhere around 10k underground :D
I imagined it like the movie The core starring that dude Hilary swank ;)
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Its deeper than that, I had a tank fall through the ground and by the time I .ef I was somewhere around 10k underground :D
:rofl I did that with a PT boat when the CV started turning in a never ending circle :D
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+1 will be very cool to take off and land on water.
Add swell, Add water depth so you can roll it and sink, Add submarines, Add depth charges! ok I'm getting carried away now .....
there was a boxed game called battle stations Midway that came out ages ago that combined all of these things very well and it looked good but not over the top.
go google images search battle stations Midway.
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I see planes every time I am on...........
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why not add some? we have plenty of perfectly good water just lying around! they could spawn out of ports or from a cv.
A6M2-N Rufe we already have the Zero modeled, why not add floats?
N1K1 Kyofu U.S. codename Rex, 97 units were built
H8K Emily Flying Boat could act as a bomber or a torpedo bomber
PBY Catalina
with the addition of using seaplanes from Ports, missions could be conducted from them or they could be a bit easier to defend.Carrier groups could possibly spawn seaplanes from the cruiser or something. this would open up another possibility of offensive tactics such as bombing raids using flying boats, escorted by floatplanes! :x For landing, a series of buoys could outline a strip or a location for safely ending a sortie, or just landing near the carrier like PT boats.
And if we do get subs then we would have somewhere to launch some Aichi M6A Seirans from! :banana: :banana: :banana:
Great suggestion!!! A PBY-4 would add some realism to some of the reenactment missions which I conduct in the MLW arena from time to time and everyone seems to enjoy them a great deal. I realize they would be "easy" meat for the score hounds in this game, but if used correctly and selectively, would add something to the game. I would still like to see "surface" submarines added to the game, 4 per CV group, which you could select just like an aircraft and leave the "mother" CV and hunt other enemy CV's. Would give aircraft something else to hunt and attack and with the low profile on the water, would be a threat to enemy CV's.
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A PBY-4 as any other flying boat, would be a fairly easy target, but so are the Ju-88 and both current Japanese bombers. Thats why a seaplane fighter would be nessesary to provide cover for said flying boats. Plus tests have shown that the addition to floats to a zero to make a Rufe, did not greatly detract to the craft's preformance. Same thing goes for the tests of Wildcats with floats, although they were scrapped due to the use of aircraft carriers, and island bases in the pacific. I don't know of any other seaplane fighters that operated durring the war, but im sure thee implementation of single engine scout floatplanes would not be welcomed. :salute
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If you think a Ju-88 is a easy target, your not flying it right. I have constantly dogfight planes in it and can handle the planes well. Its more manuverable than you think, so is the B-26. Besides its fun to watch how people cope with a bomber turnfighting, and actually trunfighting pretty well.
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Oh im not saying shooting down a Ju88 is a walk in the park, it just is a bit more difficult to defend that a B17 chugging away on its guns! it takes more skill to defend in those early-mid war bombers. And yes i have gotten numerous kills in all three bombers mentioned. Im simply stating that a different tactic would be needed to help better defend against those nasty late war fighters and there big ol' cannons!
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A PBY-4 as any other flying boat, would be a fairly easy target, but so are the Ju-88 and both current Japanese bombers. Thats why a seaplane fighter would be nessesary to provide cover for said flying boats. Plus tests have shown that the addition to floats to a zero to make a Rufe, did not greatly detract to the craft's preformance. Same thing goes for the tests of Wildcats with floats, although they were scrapped due to the use of aircraft carriers, and island bases in the pacific. I don't know of any other seaplane fighters that operated durring the war, but im sure thee implementation of single engine scout floatplanes would not be welcomed. :salute
The Rufe was an easy target.
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The Rufe was an easy target.
Floats on the Rufe caused between a 20-25% loss of performance over the Zero.
ack-ack
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+1 maps
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This makes sense if HT adds a whole new entity to the game, namely the convoy. PBYs were great for scouting, though this is not much of an issue in this game. They become a slightly bigger, less manueverable Storch, a little tougher then the C47: Just another easy kill.
Have a convoy of 10 Liberty ships with four destroyers as escorts. Allow for the PBY to carrier a torpedoe and go for it. This convoy would resupply forward bases, without it the bases take longer to repair themselves.
This dynamic makes sense for floatplanes, etc.
Boo
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I've wanted a PBY for a long time now. Maybe someday we'll get it :pray
It'd be cool if they could resupply TGs and attack enemy shipping with torpedoes.
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The PBY-4 wasn't just used for torpedo hauling. it was capable of carrying 4,000lbs. of bombs depth charges or torpedos! And plus the depth charges were often fired directly backwards at the same velocity of the aircraft, causing the charge to drop straight down. This made hitting the target much simpler.
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Also why not the Dornier Do-24? it could carry 12 500kg bombs.
or the Short Sunderland, this could carry a variety of bombs, mines or depth charges internally or some externally under the wing. it could also deploy hand launched flares,smoke floats, or smoke floats. :banana:
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Also why not the Dornier Do-24? it could carry 12 500kg bombs.
or the Short Sunderland, this could carry a variety of bombs, mines or depth charges internally or some externally under the wing. it could also deploy hand launched flares,smoke floats, or smoke floats. :banana:
i might be a little slow, but wouldnt most bombers be able to deploy hand launched flares? seems like the only requirement would be to be able to crack a window :headscratch:
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I've wanted a PBY for a long time now. Maybe someday we'll get it :pray It'd be cool if they could resupply TGs and attack enemy shipping with torpedoes.
Amen! The storch has proven a LOT more popular than many people thought it would ... AND it's an effective tool. I'd like to see merchant shipping added too. It should be fairly easy to add a ramp and hanger at the ports for PBY use. Them squids on those CVs are getting to much sleep anyway.
:aok
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Amen! The storch has proven a LOT more popular than many people thought it would ... AND it's an effective tool. I'd like to see merchant shipping added too. It should be fairly easy to add a ramp and hanger at the ports for PBY use. Them squids on those CVs are getting to much sleep anyway.
:aok
Hell ... I knew Storch was a tool years ago. ;)
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Amen! The storch has proven a LOT more popular than many people thought it would ... AND it's an effective tool. I'd like to see merchant shipping added too. It should be fairly easy to add a ramp and hanger at the ports for PBY use. Them squids on those CVs are getting to much sleep anyway.
:aok
With respect I havnt seen a storch smoke fart in weeks and the Storch does nothing any other airplane could do, or GV. The only thing its good for, that I can see, is to taxi out of GV hangars when all else is down and shoot troops out the rear gun while sitting on the tarmac. The Storch is now heading for Queen dom just like a PBY would be after the first month. All the while when we still have no Soviet bomber, two I-talian planes, only one Brit CV plane, and still without many very interesting GV types. Also we still dont have the most effective attacker of the war, very important fighters like the Yak-3, no French fighter, and on and on.
Like i said, all due respect. You have as much right to wish as I. These are just my feelings. Dont take it personal.
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Its deeper than that, I had a tank fall through the ground and by the time I .ef I was somewhere around 10k underground :D
I imagined it like the movie The core starring that dude Hilary swank ;)
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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+1 will be very cool to take off and land on water.
Add swell, Add water depth so you can roll it and sink, Add submarines, Add depth charges! ok I'm getting carried away now .....
there was a boxed game called battle stations Midway that came out ages ago that combined all of these things very well and it looked good but not over the top.
go google images search battle stations Midway.
Bruv, was a very very good game. Back in my X-Box 360 days, BattleStations: Midway was one of the first games I bought. It was very cool having to try and Engage the Yamamoto from a distance of 18+ Kilometers, Dive Bomb the Shokaku, or go toe-to-toe with a Zeke in a Grumman Hellcat. I like the idea of more Aircraft that were launched from the CVs. Now, the Float Planes, I guess I can see them as being very good to be able to launch from the Ports much like the Storch is to atack assaulting Carrier Groups.
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Here is the Dornier Do 24 WHY SAY NO? :rock :pray :x
Crew: 3+
Length: 22 m (72 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 27 m (88 ft 6 in)
Height: 5.9 m (19 ft 3 in)
Wing area: 108 m² (1,162 ft²)
Empty weight: 13,470 kg (29,700 lb)
Loaded weight: 18,400 kg (40,565 lb)
Powerplant: 3 × Bramo 323 9-cylinder radial engines, 746 kW (1,000 hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 341 km/h (212 mph)
Combat radius: 2,900 km (1,802 mi)
Service ceiling: 5,900 m (19,357 ft)
Armament
1 × 20 mm MG 151 cannon
2 × 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 15 machine guns
12 × 50 kg (110 lb) bombs
(https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRa1P6APAZm4nTFiCz9_HYXrTPJuJWxybeceNZDD18zaDpPpb8wNA)
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Any seaplane or floatplane added to the game doesnt neccessarily have to be used as a spotter craft. the aircraft that were previously stated were more than capable to take the fight to the enemy with their payloads. If the PBY-4 along with all the other flying boats, are properly modeled, then they should have just a good of chance as a Ju88 to attack a target. Personally i think any craft that is being developed for spotter duty, with the option to deliver vehicle supplys, is marginally a waste of time to develope. Give our planes some firepower! :aok
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With respect I havnt seen a storch smoke fart in weeks and the Storch does nothing any other airplane could do, or GV. The only thing its good for, that I can see, is to taxi out of GV hangars when all else is down and shoot troops out the rear gun while sitting on the tarmac. The Storch is now heading for Queen dom just like a PBY would be after the first month. All the while when we still have no Soviet bomber, two I-talian planes, only one Brit CV plane, and still without many very interesting GV types. Also we still dont have the most effective attacker of the war, very important fighters like the Yak-3, no French fighter, and on and on.
Like i said, all due respect. You have as much right to wish as I. These are just my feelings. Dont take it personal.
They are used frequently. To me a very unexpected addition to the game, and a fairly often used one. You may not see them it you are flying too high, or not near a VH spawn. But I assure you they are very much being used, and it's great fun to see them. And as a Gver, the orange poo they eject definatley assists with finding an enemy GV, even if it has moved or the accuracy was not great.
Stats for the storch this tour so far:
Kills Deaths K/D
Fi 156 389 3785 0.10
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i think the OP is new to the game and has not realized yet that all he mentioned has been asked for many times
<S>
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They are used frequently. To me a very unexpected addition to the game, and a fairly often used one. Stats for the storch this tour so far:
Kills Deaths K/D
Fi 156 389 3785 0.10
Yep ... We have a few players in midwar who SPECIALIZE in spotting with the storch and Tank Battles have increased considerably since it has become possible to LOCATE Precisely and MARK the enemy's whereabouts. 3,785 deaths would likely indicate well over 10,000 flights ... Not exactly a Hanger Queen?
It's also fairly common to find a friendly dot 50 - 100 miles (4 sectors) offshore HUNTING for Carriers ... Knowing WHERE they are is critical to PREVENTING suprise attacks and intercepting them with your own carrier group. A specialized aircraft (especially one with a HIGH WING and long range observation equipment) would likely enhance the experience and make it more appealing to other players.
:salute
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3,785 deaths would likely indicate well over 10,000 flights ... Not exactly a Hanger Queen?
Are you a graduate of the Krusty School of High Mathematics? How does 3,785 deaths indicate the Storch was used for 10,000 flights? Just wondering because the usage stats does not support that for this tour nor the last tour when the Storch saw its highest usage.
ack-ack
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Over the last 2 days I've been doing a little bit of GV dweebery and have seen how useful a good storch driver can be.
Earlier today Myself and a trusty guy in a storch held off 8 GV attackers who came in 2 at a time. I was able to shoot and scoot and if one stopped out flank and kill them with the aid of the smoke markers. Much more fun than sitting in a hole with your engine off.
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PBYs would be great for when poor sports send carriers as far from anything as possible.
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I recently saw a Do-24 at the Dutch Air Force Museum in Soesterberg. It is in extremely good condition:-
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Dornier_Do_24_on_Display.jpg)
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PBYs would be great for when poor sports send carriers as far from anything as possible.
You already can use a bomber to do the same thing, no need for a PBY.
ack-ack
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Use your imagination a little.
With a dedicated spotter plane, enemy carrier spottings could be done from a farther distance, or possibly even have the ability to show the recent location of an carrier on the map itself.
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Use your imagination a little.
With a dedicated spotter plane, enemy carrier spottings could be done from a farther distance, or possibly even have the ability to show the recent location of an carrier on the map itself.
Bombers like B-17s, B-24s, B-26s, B-25s and other bombers were routinely used as dedicated patrol planes to scout for maritime (shipping) targets. The PBY held no advantages over the bombers when it came to spotting maritime targets.
ack-ack
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Bombers like B-17s, B-24s, B-26s, B-25s and other bombers were routinely used as dedicated patrol planes to scout for maritime (shipping) targets. The PBY held no advantages over the bombers when it came to spotting maritime targets.
ack-ack
it could land should something happen to an engine, or should they see a downed pilot, like to see one of then b-series do that :neener:
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Bombers like B-17s, B-24s, B-26s, B-25s and other bombers were routinely used as dedicated patrol planes to scout for maritime (shipping) targets. The PBY held no advantages over the bombers when it came to spotting maritime targets.
ack-ack
with the un-expected introduction of the Storch maybe HTC are open to some new ideas to spice up gameplay.
The Storch has made an impact on the GV war for me. With a catalina enabled at ports and maybe a spotter option to mark CV's from double the normal radar circle. The player could then stay out of range of the CV dar but provide his team with an up to date Position of the carrier whilst he keeps within range of it. Soon as he flies off it drops away from the clipboard.
Not to mention landing and taking off on the water would be :cool:, giving supps to PT boats, and if HTC were to add any submarines well the catalina would be used in even more ways.
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with the un-expected introduction of the Storch maybe HTC are open to some new ideas to spice up gameplay.
The Storch has made an impact on the GV war for me. With a catalina enabled at ports and maybe a spotter option to mark CV's from double the normal radar circle. The player could then stay out of range of the CV dar but provide his team with an up to date Position of the carrier whilst he keeps within range of it. Soon as he flies off it drops away from the clipboard.
Not to mention landing and taking off on the water would be :cool:, giving supps to PT boats, and if HTC were to add any submarines well the catalina would be used in even more ways.
But if you're going to give the PBY options to spot a CV further, like the Storch's increased range to detect GVs, you'd have to give that option to bombers as well since they were historically also used in that role.
ack-ack
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it could land should something happen to an engine, or should they see a downed pilot, like to see one of then b-series do that :neener:
And I'd like to see a PBY keep flying with 2 engines out :neener:
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that is sort of a cool idea. that would be usefull at those isolated ports to have some sort of Aeriel defense
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When i first posted this wish i intended the use of seaplanes at ports for aerial defensive and offensive power for ports, not just as observation aircraft, which any bomber would have preformed. thank u Ack Ack. these planes had some firepower! and are not just flying binoculars! :bhead
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But if you're going to give the PBY options to spot a CV further, like the Storch's increased range to detect GVs, you'd have to give that option to bombers as well since they were historically also used in that role.
Bombers were USED as -second choice- Scouts and Patrol craft when SEA PLANES WERE NOT AVAILABLE ... generally they lacked the special equipment (like RDF) and TRAINED OBSERVATION CREWS the catalinas had ... Aside from THAT their use was as ASW & Convoy Escorts ... Just because it has WINGS your 109 is NOT going to get the Storch's Observation advantages and your B-24 doesn't qualify as an OBSERVATION plane. DUH ?
:cool:
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Bombers were USED as -second choice- Scouts and Patrol craft when SEA PLANES WERE NOT AVAILABLE ... generally they lacked the special equipment (like RDF) and TRAINED OBSERVATION CREWS the catalinas had ... Aside from THAT their use was as ASW & Convoy Escorts ... Just because it has WINGS your 109 is NOT going to get the Storch's Observation advantages and your B-24 doesn't qualify as an OBSERVATION plane. DUH ?
:cool:
Jeebus bud are you still here? Stop making stuff up willya. You're 100% wrong on each point--once again. They were a second choice? Because bombers didn't have what? Range? RDF? Really? Like to see the wiki link you got that from. Trained crews? Seriously? Next you're gonna say they didn't even have windows or were not allowed to take a pair of binoculars along when on maritime patrol missions which--oops I forgot--they hardly flew being as they weren't trained for it<face palm>. Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look when you post before you think or at least research for 5 minutes? You got major wood for seaplanes. We get it. But to make them into some sort of wunderplanes is just insane. They fit a very minor niche in the war and that they never progressed from that point afterward which oughta tell ya how minor, minor was. They have no use here. No reason AT ALL for the devs to put all the clock cycles into developing the plane and fixing all of the water in the game so it might get used --hardly ever, btw-- by roughly a half dozen guys by my estimation that WILL stop flying them after the first tour. Been here--seen dat. Neat, yeah. Cool, sure. I'd rather see things added that might have some actual use.
Just stop with the whacky misinformation. If you have something to add try and remember you're posting to a community that's been in place a LONG TIME. You simply can't make stuff up, throw it at the wall and assume it'll stick here. That's just not going to happen.
Here's a clue. Get out of MW and spend a night in LW and you'll see there's absolutely no problem finding and sinking carrier groups with what we have in the game right now. I only fly a few hours a night and I see ships go down every hour. If somebody hides it--so what? It's got to come out sometime and when it does it'll get attacked. If somebody hides it 10 sectors away I seriously doubt ANYONE (including you) is gonna take a 90 MPH PBY to go looking for it. Heck, I doubt even Midway has the time for that! ;)
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Hi, Drano! :cool:
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Heya Arlo. Good to see you're still above ground amigo. :aok
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(http://www.michaeljohngrist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/plane.jpg)
Abandoned SHII PBY model.
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Heya Arlo. Good to see you're still above ground amigo. :aok
What with seeing more and more AW/AH friends passing on .... I'm glad to be here (and see you here, as well). :cheers:
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Bombers were USED as -second choice- Scouts and Patrol craft when SEA PLANES WERE NOT AVAILABLE ... generally they lacked the special equipment (like RDF) and TRAINED OBSERVATION CREWS the catalinas had ... Aside from THAT their use was as ASW & Convoy Escorts ... Just because it has WINGS your 109 is NOT going to get the Storch's Observation advantages and your B-24 doesn't qualify as an OBSERVATION plane. DUH ?
:cool:
Bombers like the B-17 and the B-24 were not used as a "second choice", It was a regular role for bombers in the PTO and even in the ETO (see RAF Bomber Command's Very Long Range Liberators). While purpose built aircraft, like the Catalina existed, the lion's share of patrol duties fell on bombers such as the PBJ-1 (USN's version of the B-25).
Please do yourself a favor and read about the air war in the PTO or in World War II in general. This way you will stop posting the incorrect tripe you've been posting so far.
ack-ack
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He should watch 'In Harm's Way.'
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Bombers like the B-17 and the B-24 were not used as a "second choice", It was a regular role for bombers in the PTO and even in the ETO (see RAF Bomber Command's Very Long Range Liberators). While purpose built aircraft, like the Catalina existed, the lion's share of patrol duties fell on bombers such as the PBJ-1 (USN's version of the B-25).
Please do yourself a favor and read about the air war in the PTO or in World War II in general. This way you will stop posting the incorrect tripe you've been posting so far.
ack-ack
Heck even the Luftwaffe, that had excellent seaplanes like that DO-24 above, used the FW-200 Condor (umm--also NOT a seaplane) for it's long range maritime patrolling. Look it up. It actually happened!
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Jeebus bud are you still here? Stop making stuff up willya. You're 100% wrong on each point - Just stop with the whacky misinformation.
No ... I'm not wrong ... YES, Early in the war, regular BOMBER SQUADONS were tasked for recon to fill in the gaps, without ANY training or equipment Why don't you name us ONE Heavy Bomber Squadron that was tasked for -FRONT LINE RECON- that wasn't relieved as SOON as an Amphibian Squadron was available? ... Tell us about HOW MANY Catalina Squadrons were HELD IN RESERVE (hint: 0) as they weren't DESPERATELY NEEDED at the front. EXPLAIN why all the foriegn orders for the Catalina's were CANCELLED immediately upon commencement of hostilities? The Field Based Recon Bomber squadrons that existed were stationed in the Aleutians or at Mainland Costal Bases and were staffed by misfits not judged capable of Strat Bombing Ops and Returned Aircrews finishing out their enlistments ... MOSTLY they were on ASW patrol ... ... PBY squadrons were staffed by the TOP OF THE CLASS Multi Engine Pilots and went to special schooling for observation dutys ... It's HISTORY and EASILY VERIFIABLE ... learn how to read a book and stop googling every weirdo web site on the net.
:uhoh
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He should watch 'In Harm's Way.'
Ah yes ... The John Wayne school of recorded history. now THERE's a RELIABLE source of facts ...
:rofl
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Ah yes ... The John Wayne school of recorded history. now THERE's a RELIABLE source of facts ...
:rofl
More reliable than anything you've quoted to date. :aok
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No ... I'm not wrong ... YES, Early in the war, regular BOMBER SQUADONS were tasked for recon to fill in the gaps, without ANY training or equipment Why don't you name us ONE Heavy Bomber Squadron that was tasked for -FRONT LINE RECON- that wasn't relieved as SOON as an Amphibian Squadron was available? ... Tell us about HOW MANY Catalina Squadrons were HELD IN RESERVE (hint: 0) as they weren't DESPERATELY NEEDED at the front. EXPLAIN why all the foriegn orders for the Catalina's were CANCELLED immediately upon commencement of hostilities? The Field Based Recon Bomber squadrons that existed were stationed in the Aleutians or at Mainland Costal Bases and were staffed by misfits not judged capable of Strat Bombing Ops and Returned Aircrews finishing out their enlistments ... MOSTLY they were on ASW patrol ... ... PBY squadrons were staffed by the TOP OF THE CLASS Multi Engine Pilots and went to special schooling for observation dutys ... It's HISTORY and EASILY VERIFIABLE ... learn how to read a book and stop googling every weirdo web site on the net.
:uhoh
Once again an entire post of your own ideals. You're the one spouting off nonsense and are once again short on facts. I didn't go there--again. You did. What squadrons are you talking about? When and where did they serve or not? What info do you have suggesting insufficient training to fly over a patch of the ocean and look downwards for a ship shaped object? Were these "top of the class" pilots in the PBY squadrons there to fly the planes or look for the ships? I'm sure they'd have crew for that. What specialized equipment did they have? Come on bud. Post a link to back up one thing you've said or begone already.
Your own ideals. Yukyuk.
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More reliable than anything you've quoted to date. :aok
Psst. EVZ. the seaplanes kicked arse in that one. Sayin. :rofl
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Obvously no one here undeerstands the concepts of my initial wish. it has NOTHING to do with recon aircraft. PERIOD. if u feel the need to huss and fuss about any spotter aircraft related to the PBY then go hijack one of those threads. thank you. >>cout:rage mode off. /endl;
:bhead :furious
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A6M2-N Rufe would be the easiest way to add the first sea plane to AH.
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No ... I'm not wrong ... YES, Early in the war, regular BOMBER SQUADONS were tasked for recon to fill in the gaps, without ANY training or equipment Why don't you name us ONE Heavy Bomber Squadron that was tasked for -FRONT LINE RECON- that wasn't relieved as SOON as an Amphibian Squadron was available? ... Tell us about HOW MANY Catalina Squadrons were HELD IN RESERVE (hint: 0) as they weren't DESPERATELY NEEDED at the front. EXPLAIN why all the foriegn orders for the Catalina's were CANCELLED immediately upon commencement of hostilities? The Field Based Recon Bomber squadrons that existed were stationed in the Aleutians or at Mainland Costal Bases and were staffed by misfits not judged capable of Strat Bombing Ops and Returned Aircrews finishing out their enlistments ... MOSTLY they were on ASW patrol ... ... PBY squadrons were staffed by the TOP OF THE CLASS Multi Engine Pilots and went to special schooling for observation dutys ... It's HISTORY and EASILY VERIFIABLE ... learn how to read a book and stop googling every weirdo web site on the net.
:uhoh
I bet you didn't know that we already have the primary patrol plane used by the USN/USMC for anti-shipping/submarine patrols in Aces High and *hint* it's a bomber.
You are partially correct in that for the USAAF, the use of bombers for patrol missions became a secondary role because in 1943, by agreement with the USN, the USN took over all anti-shipping/submarine patrol duties and USAAF Anti-Submarine Command (responsible for anti-shipping/submarine and maritime patrolling) was disbanded. It was a rather silly agreement born out of service rivalry, the USAAF agreed to get out of the maritime patrol business and stop objections of the USN operating heavy bombers in exchange for the Navy dropping the Sea Ranger program and instead use the facilities at the Renton factory to B-29 production. The USN agreed and got the B-24s, B-25s, A-20s, and the B-34/B-37 Venturas that the USAAF had used in their anti-maritime units. The USAAF B-24Ds that were given to the USN already were already ASV radar equipped and all factory production models afterwards were similarly equipped.
USN operated 977 PB4Y-1s throughout the entire war and was the primary anti-maritime/patrol aircraft for both the USN and USMC. You should read the book, "We Flew Alone", which is the history of the USN PB4Y-1s in the Pacific during WW2.
ack-ack
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A6M2-N Rufe would be the easiest way to add the first sea plane to AH.
It would also probably be the best choice as it would actually be useful for port defense as opposed to the other float planes/flying boats others have suggested.
ack-ack
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A6M2-N Rufe would be the easiest way to add the first sea plane to AH.
The N1K1 Kyufu 'Rex' would also be an option as it had some bits in common with the N1K2-J, though far less than the A6M2-N had with the A6M2. The N1K1's advantage is that it would be far more capable than the A6M2-N.
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The N1K1 Kyufu 'Rex' would also be an option as it had some bits in common with the N1K2-J, though far less than the A6M2-N had with the A6M2. The N1K1's advantage is that it would be far more capable than the A6M2-N.
Yeh, the fuselage shape might be recyclable. Stabs have a different shape and it has a mid wing config and the instrument panel has a different layout. Personally, I'd certainly fly the Kyofu but mentioned the A6M2-N over it due to larger amount of use it saw and bigger production and the mentioned fact that only thing really needed is to model the floats and disable the gear animations.
Kyofu is a really cool looking aircraft but only bit over 80 were produced.
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Bombers like B-17s, B-24s, B-26s, B-25s and other bombers were routinely used as dedicated patrol planes to scout for maritime (shipping) targets. The PBY held no advantages over the bombers when it came to spotting maritime targets.
ack-ack
*cough* B-25J *cough* is not represented (our B-25H has no glass-nose/bombadier option, and the B-25C is an earlier, less defenses, less ordnance - version).
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Bombers were USED as -second choice- Scouts and Patrol craft when SEA PLANES WERE NOT AVAILABLE ... generally they lacked the special equipment (like RDF) and TRAINED OBSERVATION CREWS the catalinas had ... Aside from THAT their use was as ASW & Convoy Escorts ... Just because it has WINGS your 109 is NOT going to get the Storch's Observation advantages and your B-24 doesn't qualify as an OBSERVATION plane. DUH ?
:cool:
Where are you getting this information from? wikipedia?
Bombers were one of the VERY few with the range to do scouting and patrol. Some excelled in the role like the b-24 which maritime version flew almost twice as far due to more gas and no bombs. Here's a hint - nobody that entered WW2 on the american side had experience, it was gained through war. It wasn't until late 1943 that american's started spitting out experienced pilots due to Aces and veterans coming home to train. And if you want to look at it more closely, Americans produced twice the number of pilots then the Japanese did in 1942 - and neither had any training setup period. Everything was trial and error, eventually pilots got experienced and so did crews. If you want to look at it from a broad point of view - the Japanese never understood ingenuity as the american's did, one reason American B-24s were used by the navy for naval scouting and recon work, where Japanese Betty's were classified as "bombers" and other types were for recon.
Look at the F-5 Lightning, it was an unarmed version of the P-38, and it did wonders in the pacific and ETO, and the pilots were not exactly "observation" specialist either.
Even if they were experienced think about this: The japanese were the most advanced naval aviators in the outbreak of WW2, far more skilled then the Americans or probably every country combined.
During the Battle of the Coral Sea, the Japanese launched an attack on what it thought was a carrier and her escort (which happens to be an AO or fleet oiler and a destroyer). How could the most experienced pilots in the world mistake an oil tanker for a carrier and a destroyer for her escorts? They were trained far rigerously on identification - and proven once again when Japanese planes attempted to land on american carriers!
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*cough* B-25J *cough* is not represented (our B-25H has no glass-nose/bombadier option, and the B-25C is an earlier, less defenses, less ordnance - version).
What point are you trying to make other than you can tell the differences between the various B-25s we have in game? In case you were wondering, the B-25s that were in the USAAF anti-submarine squadrons were mostly C models.
ack-ack
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I would like to see a carrier launched B-25 in the future. For the sake of having an actual decent carrier based bomber.
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I would like to see a carrier launched B-25 in the future. For the sake of having an actual decent carrier based bomber.
The TBM-3 is superior to such a thing, unless you like a light bomb load and broomsticks for guns.
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I doubt the ability to launch b25s in the game will ever be implemented as the Doolittle raid only happened once and did little actual damage. Plus the group never went any further than its first mission due to the diminishing need for a launch point for land based bombers. The TBM or Kate could get the use of formations though. If anything, the air power of Ports need to be adressed with the implementation of seaplanes because when the cv isn't at port, its very difficult to defend.
The CV in itself, is its own airbase, and the Port is only a means of respawn and the capture of the CV itself. My wish was for the use of seaplanes as a means of Defensive, and Offensive power of a port without its cv, NOT as a means of playing peekaboo with some enemy cv!
I think i have made my point. :noid
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I would like to see a carrier launched B-25 in the future. For the sake of having an actual decent carrier based bomber.
The B-25 was never a "carrier based bomber". It was a one off affair with specially modified B-25Bs.
ack-ack
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I bet you didn't know that we already have the primary patrol plane used by the USN/USMC for anti-shipping/submarine patrols in Aces High and *hint* it's a bomber.
Yep ... "PRIMARILY" Coastal Patrol & Convoy Escort, RARELY used for front line scouting for Offensive Enemy Task Groups. Tho I think the Australians and the Dutch were forced to use them as they lacked amphibians and b25s. They PBY heavys were ALSO very popular for rear area VIP transport (lots of room for steaks and booze). They proved themselves particularly ineffective when attempting High Alt. Attacks on Task Forces and Convoys -AT SEA-. Great for hitting ships at anchor and harbor facilities.
You are partially correct in that for the USAAF, the use of bombers for patrol missions became a secondary role because in 1943, by agreement with the USN, the USN took over all anti-shipping/submarine patrol duties and USAAF Anti-Submarine Command (responsible for anti-shipping/submarine and maritime patrolling) was disbanded.
Secondary Role ... ? Disbanded isn't a secondary anything ... The AAF got the hell out of a business they weren't equipped or trained for ... Joint Chiefs and FDR thru em a bone to keep em quiet and they got a MUCH NEEDED B-29 factory.
Catalinas were the FRONT LINE SEARCH/ATTACK AIRCRAFT of choice thruout the entire war ... SO adaptable and good at what they did there was NO NEED to improve them.
:cool:
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Secondary Role ... ? Disbanded isn't a secondary anything ... The AAF got the hell out of a business they weren't equipped or trained for ... Joint Chiefs and FDR thru em a bone to keep em quiet and they got a MUCH NEEDED B-29 factory.
The USAAF wasn't equipped or trained for? The USAAF was the primary force for anti-maritime bomber operations until the agreement in 1943 that saw the USAAF Anti-Submarine Command disbanded and their planes given to the USN. As I noted, the B-24Ds the USAAF turned over to the USN were equipped with ASV radar, as well as some of the other bomber types given.
Again, as I pointed out, the PB4Y-1 (USN/USMC version of the B-24) was the primary anti-maritime/patrol aircraft for the USN and USMC and not the PBY.
Catalinas were the FRONT LINE SEARCH/ATTACK AIRCRAFT of choice thruout the entire war ... SO adaptable and good at what they did there was NO NEED to improve them.
:cool:
Yes, it served on the front lines throughout the war but that doesn't make it the primary patrol or anti-maritime attack plane used by the USN.
As you told someone else in another thread to educate themselves, I would suggest you do the same thing because you come off as very ignorant of the facts in each of your posts.
ack-ack
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A PBY-4 as any other flying boat, would be a fairly easy target, but so are the Ju-88 and both current Japanese bombers.
The Ki-67 is hardly an easy target :headscratch:
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Well the Ju 88 and Japanese bombers have no belly guns (except one measly 30 cal under the ju88), 30 cal tail guns (on the ki67), along with 30 cal dorsal guns, and very little firepower towards the front! I remember dumping half my defensive ammo in my Ju88 on a mid model spitfire and finally took a wing off, all while he was flying straight and level off my 6 co alt! Although these bombers have weak defensive guns compared to a B17 or B24, or even the B26, they can still carry a payload that rivals their American counterparts! This is the same for the PBY which could carry 4000lbs of bombs and or depth charges. The PBY is in the same 'boat' :D as these other bombers, with the exception of the use of a fuselage float annnnd landing gear.
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Whys and wherefores regardless, I think it would be great to see flyingboats added. The Short Sunderland certainly makes my shortlist (although the PBY will probably be the one if any added), the heavy bomber of the flying boat world, heavily armed, long range ASW and antishipping. If they add the option I would certainly enjoy the challenges of taking off, landing and combat. I would just wish that marine craft could make use of the lake in the DA.
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Ki-67 does not have a .30 cal on it. It has a 12.7mm in the nose and each waist position, two 12.7mm in the tail and a 20mm in the dorsal. It is vulnerable from below, but it is fast enough to make many fighters have trouble getting a good position. Obviously speed demons treat it like any other bomber.
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I stand corrected, but as any Japanese plane, it was not highly armored, making it a very soft target for any fighter aircraft. If flown correctly, any aircraft can provide a difficult opponent.
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Both the Emily and Mavis were rather rugged aircraft that could take some punishment. This is a story of an account by a Mavis pilot that got into a fight with a couple of B-17s. During this period of the war in the SW area of the Pacific, the Japanese were losing a large amount of patrol planes in rapid succession. Because the Japanese patrol planes were usually shot down before they were able to get off a radio report, they had no idea US patrol planes were actively hunting Japanese patrol planes.
The Mavis in this incident took quite a bit of damage and was able to dish it out as well.
Lt. Hitsuji, 851 NAG, was commanding an H6K (Mavis) in November 1942, and became one of the first to find out what shot down Japanese patrol planes and survive. The following is a translation from his memoir "Saigo no Hikotei (The Last Flying boat)" (Asahi Sonorama, ISBN4-257-17286-X).
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"Enemy plane! Close! Starboard and to the rear!" the tail gunner reported.
"All men on air to air battle station!" I yelled as I put the plane in a full speed dive to sealevel.
It was 0700 November 21, 1942, 150 nautical miles south of Guadalcanal. We were in midst of a very bloody battle, losing flying boats almost every day to unidentified enemy activities. Our boats would have just enough time to radio a consecutive "hi" signal (consecutive signaling of the Japanese Morse code signal for the character "hi", the initial for "hikoki" or airplane) before the shoot-out followed by silence. Very few survived air combat. If a boat is able to make detailed reports about the enemy, that boat was sure to make it back.
Our commanding officer was in distress about the mounting losses, and just a few days ago, I had assured him that this will not go on for long. So far 16 of our boats were lost. I was not about to be number 17. It wasn't a patrol plane's duty to engage in air battles, but now I had no choice.
I figured that the fight must be decided quickly. The B-17 positioned itself above and to the starboard rear of our plane and followed us with ease. It must be radioing it's base about our position. One of them was bad enough. If there were two or even fighter planes we did not have a chance. I made a tight turn to the port and headed towards the enemy. The only chance we had was the relatively small turning radius of our slow plane compared to that of the fast B-17.
The enemy was obviously surprised at our sudden turn. As we passed each other, our tail cannon fire hit the B-17 and its port inside engine started smoking. The enemy fled, trailing a long streamer of black smoke. The enemy was surprisingly inpersistent. We continued our search mission, but I had a feeling that it wasn't over yet.
"Eat your breakfast now before they come back" I ordered and went to the commander's seat to open my lunchbox. Pretty soon the co-pilot silently pointed his finger forward and to the port. I took a hard look, and there he was. Another big-tailed B-17 heading straight toward us. The one we damaged must have called for help. We were all ready to fight, and I stood up from my seat. I sealed the tank chamber and pulled the fire extinguisher lever. This fills the tank chamber with CO2. All gunners manned their stations. I could see the front gunner grinning in his turret.
"Okay we're ready" someone said.
At altitude 30 meters and speed 150 knots, we headed towards squally skied in the direction of our base. The enemy didn't start his attack immediately. It flew alongside us and passed us. I figured that he was avoiding our tail cannon. It would probably be making a frontal attack. The shoot-out was about to begin.
"Here it comes!" someone shouted, and at the same time, the enemy's front guns and all four of our starboard machine-guns started firing. As we passed each other, I could see the enemy's tail gun fire, but tracers were way behind us. No hits on either side. We didn't change our course and headed toward the squall.
The faster enemy caught up quickly and crisscrossed our path, attacking as it passed us.
We were at very low altitude, and the sea behind us whitened with machine-gun fire. As the shooting went on, this started moving closer and closer. I could not hear anything other than the roar of the machine-guns and the engine noise. I couldn't keep my eyes off the enemy for a moment. The enemy made its fourth pass, and as it crossed our path, a 50 caliber shell jumped into the cockpit.
I heard someone yell "Damn!" and smelled smoke at the same time. I turned around and two men were down on the floor. Our main radio man PO2 Watanabe's left arm was hanging limp from his shoulder, and blood was shooting up to the ceiling. Flight engineer Leading Mechanic Nakano was down on the floor, holding his left arm, and shouting "Gasoline, gasoline!".
ack-ack
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He was yelling to the radioman because the spark from the telegram key could set the vaporized gasoline on fire. But the injured radio man continued to send the message that we were combating an enemy bomber. The enemy started making yet another pass.
I took off my muffler and threw it to Lt. (jg) Ide who was shooting away, and yelled "Stop his bleeding!" I could see from the tank chamber window that gas was gushing out of a hit tank. It was a miracle that it wasn't on fire. The floor was soon covered with gas. I injected additional CO2 gas, and I could see the white gas filling the tank chamber. The injured mechanic was still yelling "Gasoline!". I could only yell back "It's okay! You worry about yourself!"
We were able to stop the radioman's bleeding, but the enemy still kept attacking. Amid the exchange of machine gun roar, I could hear bullets tearing into our plane. The plane shook under the impact. All four engines were driving at full power.
On their sixth pass, the moment I saw their tailgun fire, there was an enormous banging noise up front gunner PO1 Takahashi pointed to the floor beneath the pilot's seat and I noted a big hole about 30cm, on the keel of our bow. I could see waves from the hole.
By this time, I was sure that this enemy has shot down more than one flying boat. "It wasn't fighters. It was this guy. Another patrol plane!. I'm going to get him. He is not going to have anymore kill marks!" As I came to this realization, there was a new determination in my mind. If we can't donw him with our guns, we will ram him. I drew and loaded my pistol.
"If worse comes to worst we'll ram him, okay?" I patted the main pilot Ensign Kobayashi's sholder with my pistol. He nodded lightly. "Okay, we're ready then". My mind was set. I was going to shoot myself at the moment of the ramming so I would die before the crew.
I noted that the side panel of the commander's seat was burning hot. I was shocked to find the bullet that hit the crew crewmen perched in the panel. Had I not been standing, this bullet would have hit my back! (This bullet is still in my possession).
I noticed that the enemy's fire was getting considerably weaker. Either some of their gunners were knocked out, or they were out of ammo. I was getting the feeling that we may be able to make it when the co-pilot suddenly put the plane in a dive. The sea was right in front of us.
"Not yet!" I yelled, thinking that he was about to ram the B-17, but soon realized that our co-pilot PO1 Kira evaded a collision with the enemy who came in from the side. The enemy passed about 30meters behind us. The tail gunner poured an entire drum of 20mm cannon shells into the B-17.
The shells all hit the enemy's fuselage. The enemy passed us from the right, then banked left and started closing into our plane. I could see the enemy pilot's face. I couldn't help but fire my pistol at the enemy.
Maybe the enemy was trying to ram us too. I noticed all his guns were pointing random directions. He must have been out of ammo. He flew alongside us banking and yawing for a while, but eventually disappeared into the rain towards Guadalcanal, trailing gasoline. "We won!" we said to each other, but we could no longer fight.
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Lt. Hitsuji's H6K made it back to Shortland, but taxing was something of a small adventure. After splashdown, as soon as the bow came down, water started gushing in from the hole in the bow. Since they did not have material to close the big hole in the bow, they stuffed their life jackets into the hole. This obviously wasn't holding up, and six men piled up on the life jacket-stuffed hole to stop the water. By the time they were beached, these men had their head barely above water. Everyone was covered with water, oil, and blood.
Their plane #36 (could have been O-36 or 851-36 or 51-36) had endured ninety-three 50 caliber bullets.
Measures were immediately taken to improve the defensive capability of the flying boats. The following conversions were made on the field.
1) Fuel tank protection : All fuel tanks were covered with rubber, and held together with wire net. (Hitsuji notes that American self-sealing tanks with the rubber inside the tank was much more effective, but that couldn't be done in the field.)
2) Improved defensive armament: Machine-guns on H6Ks were increased from one 20mm and seven 7.7mm to three 20mm (tail and waist) and five 7.7mm (front, dorsal, ventral, and fuselage sides).
3) Armor: 20mm armor plate behind the pilots' seat and 20mm shield at gunners' positions. However, Hitsuji notes that the armor behind the pilot was something of a mixed blessing. Since they didn't have bullet-proof glass, if the bullet came in from the front and hit the pilot , the bullet would not just pass through, but be deflected by the armor plate and tear the pilot's body apart.
4) Increased air to air gunnery training.
These conversions amounted to 1.5 tons in additional weight, but this did not affect speed and range performance.
Lt. Hitsuji survived the war to become the last Japanese pilot to fly the H8K2 when he flew the big boat to Yokohama and where it was handed over to the US occupational forces. He was escorted by a PBY, but had to fly in zigzag pattern to keep from overtaking the PBY.
ack-ack
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Interesting story, thanks for posting that. Of course the pilot knew he would never get shot ever again after that day, since he had the bullet with his name on it in his pocket after that :eek:
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Would AH require a massive re-write in code to enable Flyingboats or seaplanes, or could they adopt the patrol boat coding?
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What point are you trying to make other than you can tell the differences between the various B-25s we have in game? In case you were wondering, the B-25s that were in the USAAF anti-submarine squadrons were mostly C models.
ack-ack
Yeah, but US NAVY anti-submarine squadrons were mostly a mix of Cs and Js, predominantly mostly Js if I recall correctly.
I'd just like my extra 33% of ordnance and defencive armament, honestly. That's pretty important, both aesthetically and practically.
Back OT: Uploading at the moment a photo I forgot I took about am onth ago w/ my phone, saw a pretty cool medium sized floatplane heading out to the Channel Islands I'd assume. Also have one (barely) of the floatplaane I usually see working outa the airport. Im actually going ot go grab lunch first/now so they upload off my phone faster (better connection outside my office).
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Here are the two floatplanes I see the most around the airport.
I keep forgetting what the big guy is in the first picture. He seems to get someone to pay for the gas once or twice a weekend each month. I love the sound of it's two big radials though, not quite as nice as the resident B-25's roar, but the closest to it. (only pic I have at the moment, I think I have a better one hiding somewhere...)
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/CAF%20SoCal/IMAG0037.jpg)
(other planes pictures from L to R - SpitXIV, P51D, and F8F)
The second one I have no clue about and see a lot less often about the airport, but I have seen it a half-dozen times.
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/CAF%20SoCal/IMAG0029.jpg)
Also have a bunch of photos and a short clip with my camera of a Lockheed Constellation that tookoff outa the airport in January to live and get restored in Chino I think, really big and unique looking bird. Also got a bunch of other photos not-related to the topic to share.
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PBYs should be able take troops , but would only be able to land them near on in town, it would be able to carrier supples, spot hostile fleets, and be a light sea based bomber capable of carrying bombs to a target. The PBY would be a great add on to those fleets, it has alot of unseen potential. We just need to get it out into the game and see what are all of its basic capabilities , then we can addon different gun pacakges, armorment packages. supplie packages, and so on.
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Here are the two floatplanes I see the most around the airport.
I keep forgetting what the big guy is in the first picture. He seems to get someone to pay for the gas once or twice a weekend each month. I love the sound of it's two big radials though, not quite as nice as the resident B-25's roar, but the closest to it. (only pic I have at the moment, I think I have a better one hiding somewhere...)
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/CAF%20SoCal/IMAG0037.jpg)
(other planes pictures from L to R - SpitXIV, P51D, and F8F)
The second one I have no clue about and see a lot less often about the airport, but I have seen it a half-dozen times.
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/CAF%20SoCal/IMAG0029.jpg)
Also have a bunch of photos and a short clip with my camera of a Lockheed Constellation that tookoff outa the airport in January to live and get restored in Chino I think, really big and unique looking bird. Also got a bunch of other photos not-related to the topic to share.
I'm guessing the first one is an Albatross, the second is definitely a Twin Otter.
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Grumman HU-16 Albatross
(http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/Babalon84/HU-16.jpg)
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Sea hurricane...
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No! It's an Albatross , really! ;)
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I'd like to see the addition of a float plane. Be pretty neat base defenders for ports.
Once killed an LA7 in a stuka and then tried to run home. :rofl He came back and we got into another tangle. He did some damage and I pinged him up. Then I limped home and he ran away.