Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on April 20, 2012, 09:55:42 AM
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Guys,
For Air Combat:
1. Are there any technical advantages to flying the P-47d25 over the P-47d40?
2. What do you see as the major differences in between the P-47d25 over the P-47d40?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
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simple. the p47d25 with greebos new default skin with new specularity map makes the p47d25 the best looking jug.
because it is the best looking jug it flies the best.
I fly only the p47d25 when flying jugs because of this logic.
if your gonna jug... jug with style.
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I'll echo what fester said, although substituting Greebo's older but still gorgeous RAF camo skin ;)
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the D25 comes with a french skin and a white flag field mod.
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Which plane do you feel turns better under 10k?
Which plane do you feel climbs better under 10k?
Thanks for answer non-skin related questions on this (though I like the skins!).
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D40 is better then the D25. as well as the D11,M, and N
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For Air Combat:
1. Are there any technical advantages to flying the P-47d25 over the P-47d40?
2. What do you see as the major differences in between the P-47d25 over the P-47d40?
It used to be that the D25 offered the biggest ordnance loadout (don't know why), so that people who wanted to bomb things took the D25. Otherwise, given a choice, if you want the best performance I think you'd want the D40. Taking the D25 instead offers you an extra challenge.
- oldman
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Which plane do you feel turns better under 10k?
Which plane do you feel climbs better under 10k?
Thanks for answer non-skin related questions on this (though I like the skins!).
jug doesn't turn.
jug doesn't climb.
jug doesn't like being below 10k... unless you are a master at suckering overshoots and getting a clear kill shot on them as they zoom by.
p47d25 has less powerful wep than p47d40. other than that and some rocket loading options they are about the same.
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jug doesn't turn. - wrong
jug doesn't climb.
jug doesn't like being below 10k... unless you are a master at suckering overshoots and getting a clear kill shot on them as they zoom by.
p47d25 has less powerful wep than p47d40. other than that and some rocket loading options they are about the same.
d-40 and d-11 easily out turn a spixteen
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d-40 and d-11 easily out turn a spixteen
Please elaborate. I'd be very interested in learning how.
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Please elaborate. I'd be very interested in learning how.
flaps and throttle control. speed matters to. also rudder
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d-40 and d-11 easily out turn a spixteen
:rofl
in my awesome sing song voice
he 's got high hopes........... he's got high hopes...higher then the sky hopes.....
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flaps and throttle control. speed matters to. also rudder
Still quite nebulous to me.
So let's get down to the numbers
The holy grail of AH Performance testing, Mosq's revised sustained turn list v2.07 gives tested values for the Spit 16 and the P-47 D-11 as follows:
No flaps:
Spit 16 (at 99% fuel) 605ft radius at 22°/s
P-47D-11 (with smallest gun pack and 25% fuel only) 737ft and 17.7°/s
Full flaps:
Spit 16 450 ft & 19.9°/s
P-47D-11 505 ft & 17.6°/s
So even at conditions very favorable to the D-11, the Spit still runs rings around it.
See also http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p47d11&p2=spit16
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flaps and throttle control. speed matters to. also rudder
thats not turning. thats scissoring and attempting rolling reversals.
as I said... if you want to fly low n slow ina jug you need to master suckering overshoots and getting kills in the small window of opportunity as they shoot by.
if you miss once you might get a second chance. if you miss twice your dead.
the bright side is most of the MA grows a pair when they see a low jug so they will actually try to fight. unfortunately so will everyone else in icon range so you will need situational awareness and the ability to evade multiple enemies while you try to get snapshots on overshoots where you will be very slow.
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1 notch maneuvering flaps for the jug vs no flaps for the spit would be a fairer and more realistic comparison :)
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the only way a jug (any jug) is gonna "out turn" a spit 16...is if the guy in the spit is an imbecile, a first day noob....or dead. :old:
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flaps and throttle control. speed matters to. also rudder
The spit has a lower corner speed than a P47 so it can pull more G's at lower speeds and will outturn any 47.The spit can also fight uphill when the speed get slow and thats something the 47 has trouble with also.
The only advantage the 47 has over the spit is speed and roll and against the spit16 I'm not sure if it has a roll advantage,against any unclipped spit it certainly does. A smart spit driver will just slow the fight down and kill the 47 with it's ability to gain or loose E at will.
Of course YMMV.
:salute
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D40 better than D25 except for looks, Spit better than D25 in a 1v1. Many v Many Jugs rock :rock
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where the p47s really shine is in scenarios. the long reach of their guns, durability and diving speed makes them excellent teamwork aircraft where their low level acceleration, climb rate and turn rate are not as big of hinderances.
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where the p47s really shine is in scenarios. the long reach of their guns, durability and diving speed makes them excellent teamwork aircraft where their low level acceleration, climb rate and turn rate are not as big of hinderances.
I'd add to this the usual high alt flying that you find in scenarios really help the 47 shine,after all it's making power at those alts like most planes make atsea level. Combine this with it's hispeed flaps and then a 47 might give most planes something to think about.
Fester is spot on on his assesment!
:salute
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Fester is spot on on his assesment!
Especially about the skins. If you are going to go down in flames, try to look good while doing so.
If you aren't going down, you are not trying hard enough.
:airplane:
:old:
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Great comments. Thanks all.
It is a well known fact that the P-47 shines up high...just seeking more info on lower alt performance characteristics of the given 47s.
Sometimes I choose a 47 just cuz it is so tough. Swoop in a take out ACK huggers and even live! :rock
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I've a slightly unrelated question--The "M" is essentially the same plane as D40/25 with superhot engine? I've been flying N for a long time.....(there ARE some unique things it can do, compared to D series, though a good stick with a D usually owns me in an even fight) Tried M for a few weeks....can't hit SQUAT with it...seems like the guns aim at something below the cowling, even whilst in level flight. I do NOT get this impression in D series...hitting targets at 600 is fairly easy. I expected gunnery to be different in M, as N has them further from center......I dunno. (At any rate, I frikkin hate everything ELSE about the M too....it goes fast in a straight line, is about it. Has nowhere near as much rudder effect as N, doesn't seem to roll as well either...doesnt seem to maneuver as well as D series either)
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the only reason i made that claim is because I've done it before. I've also turned with spits that had their flaps out as well. look at charts all you want but I've actually done it before.
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the only reason i made that claim is because I've done it before. I've also turned with spits that had their flaps out as well. look at charts all you want but I've actually done it before.
out turning a noob, means nothing.
that's the only way you accomplished that....
I out flew a zero on the deck in a 152....does that mean a 152 can out turn a zero :headscratch:
listen Ill tell ya what I fly the KI84, the spit is a better fighter then the KI so by your reasoning you should be able to out turn my KI....wanna try it?
I know first hand that the jug stands NO chance trying to turn fight the KI......
the best of the best in the JUG lasted all of 2 turns against my KI....
what you are talking about is nonsense...plain and simple.
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out turning a noob, means nothing.
that's the only way you accomplished that....
I out flew a zero on the deck in a 152....does that mean a 152 can out turn a zero :headscratch:
listen Ill tell ya what I fly the KI84, the spit is a better fighter then the KI so by your reasoning you should be able to out turn my KI....wanna try it?
I know first hand that the jug stands NO chance trying to turn fight the KI......
the best of the best in the JUG lasted all of 2 turns against my KI....
what you are talking about is nonsense...plain and simple.
QFT. The spits tend to be a fave of noobs, and noobs leave the stall limiter on...
Next time I'll last 3 turns against you INK :D
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QFT. The spits tend to be a fave of noobs, and noobs leave the stall limiter on...
Next time I'll last 3 turns against you INK :D
:rofl
you are by far the best I have seen/fought in the JUG with out a doubt
:salute
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:rofl
you are by far the best I have seen/fought in the JUG with out a doubt
:salute
Lolz, thought you were more experienced than that...I defer to Lilmak and a number of others, for now. :devil
:salute
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P38 outturns Spit16s! I swear! I've seen it! With my own eyes! :eek:
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Yes, the B38 turns faster than the spit, but not with the tail section still attached... :bolt:
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the only reason i made that claim is because I've done it before. I've also turned with spits that had their flaps out as well. look at charts all you want but I've actually done it before.
And I have outturned Ki's and Spits in a Ta 152H...
but that doesn't mean the Ta outturns Spit's. It's a pilot that outturned another one not being able to utilize his plane's vast advantage. But you can not compare planes that way. You have to keep the pilot out of the picture in performance analysis, else you will come to this kind of very skewed results.
:old:
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there are only two typs of planes i think. those like the p47 that can be successful if flown with no mistakes that can capitalize on mistakes made of opponents.
and then there are the planes like the La7 and spit16 that can kill planes like the p47 even if the spit/la makes plenty of mistakes.
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...then there are the planes like the La7 and spit16 that can kill planes like the p47 even if the spit/la makes plenty of mistakes.
Very good point Citabria!
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there are only two typs of planes i think. those like the p47 that can be successful if flown with no mistakes that can capitalize on mistakes made of opponents.
and then there are the planes like the La7 and spit16 that can kill planes like the p47 even if the spit/la makes plenty of mistakes.
And when the P47 can't capitalize on its opponent's mistake because he has made none, then you are screwed. :old:
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there are only two typs of planes i think. those like the p47 that can be successful if flown with no mistakes that can capitalize on mistakes made of opponents.
and then there are the planes like the La7 and spit16 that can kill planes like the p47 even if the spit/la makes plenty of mistakes.
This sums up most engagements, the lower the ENY the more mistakes can be made - higher the eny the more perfected flying is needed.
One reason I sit in 20+ eny planes because I expect to lose, but still try to win a fight.
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Someone say JUG?
It's in the name :aok
JUGgler
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The D-40 is slightly better of the two with WEP. D-25 flat turns a little better than the the D-40. D-40 also has spoilers that you can pop out to help slow ya down. Overall the D-40 it the most well rounded of all the jugs.
And it will turn with any MA plane at over 250 while going down hill. Stability at really low speeds is excelent.
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Been working with the D25 and finding I like it a lot. Feels solid and turns well for a Jug. Surprisingly I am finding the turn radius is not that huge between the D11 and D25.
LilMak and other hardcore 47 guys, where and why do you like setting your convergence in the D25?
Thanks again,
Slade :salute
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out turning a noob, means nothing.
that's the only way you accomplished that....
I out flew a zero on the deck in a 152....does that mean a 152 can out turn a zero :headscratch:
listen Ill tell ya what I fly the KI84, the spit is a better fighter then the KI so by your reasoning you should be able to out turn my KI....wanna try it?
I know first hand that the jug stands NO chance trying to turn fight the KI......
the best of the best in the JUG lasted all of 2 turns against my KI....
what you are talking about is nonsense...plain and simple.
True but why would any decent jug pilot want to try and turn with a KI in the first place?
The KI has a specific place it needs to be to fight and a specific way to fight it to its highest potential,
The jug has its best fight in a different place! Two equal pilots, flying there planes "in their envolope" jug v KI FLAWLESSLY Which plane wins? I'd vote jug!
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My convergence is set 325 inner four guns 300 outer four guns. Semi shotgun effect @ convergence ranges and you get another crossing stream closer for the knife fights. I set the M a little further out because the higher speed fights Tend to take place @ longer ranges 375/350.
Jug vs KI-84 even fight with two equal pilots ends one of 2 ways...
Jug goes down in flames or is able to get lucky and get the KI Before the fight gets into the weeds. Once a jug runs out of alt against a good KI pilot, it just becomes a matter of time. The KI can stay in the vert and engage at will. Fighting downhill a jug has a chance against anything, one at the bottom of the hill your best shot is to get a lucky snap on an overshoot.
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True but why would any decent jug pilot want to try and turn with a KI in the first place?
Why would a decent 109 pilot turn with a spit? Same.
Couse they think they good enough to win a turnfight despite the differences between the planes?
Couse beating a better turning plane in a brickyer makes them smile?
Couse they arent score whures and enjoying some turny action?
A couple days ago i tryed the D25 jug. Finished a niki on the deck when got jumped by a lala. Poor dude ended up running and leaking oil after 3 scissoring turns.
The Jug isnt nearly as bad when it has no more than 40-45% fuel. Actually quite potent. Stalls steadily, has a good roll rate, predictable torque, can fly slow if needed.
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Thanks LilMak, Debrody.
>> predictable torque
From the pilots point of view, which way does the prop turn in a Jug?
Thanks.
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I can't recall seeing a KI @ 26 k
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I can't recall seeing a KI @ 26 k
I can't recall the last time I fought a TnBing Jug in the MA. HO, dive, run. Maybe a ram somewhere in there.
I have to resort to flying speed demons (La-7, Temp) to catch them and force a fight. Even the K4 can't catch them due to the craptastic diving ability.
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I can't recall the last time I fought a TnBing Jug in the MA. HO, dive, run. Maybe a ram somewhere in there.
I have to resort to flying speed demons (La-7, Temp) to catch them and force a fight. Even the K4 can't catch them due to the craptastic diving ability.
That was my point ,, kinda,,, bring a KI the the jugs arena and see what happens,,
Why does the jug have to fight the KI's fight?
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That was my point ,, kinda,,, bring a KI the the jugs arena and see what happens,,
Why does the jug have to fight the KI's fight?
You still cant get it?
Why would a decent 109 pilot turn with a spit?
Couse they think they good enough to win a turnfight despite the differences between the planes.
Couse beating a better turning plane in a brickyer makes them smile.
Couse they arent score whures and enjoying some turny action.
Becouse turning is fun and picknrunning is lame.
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Lol. I understand it! I'm just saying that people are comparing apples to oranges here,
I love out turning a spit in my jug or taking out a niki, but in order to do that in a jug, you have to take it out of its element!
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Lol. I understand it! I'm just saying that people are comparing apples to oranges here,
I love out turning a spit in my jug or taking out a niki, but in order to do that in a jug, you have to take it out of its element!
80% of the time you'll find me out of its element. More fun that way. And the reason I die a lot.
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True but why would any decent jug pilot want to try and turn with a KI in the first place?
The KI has a specific place it needs to be to fight and a specific way to fight it to its highest potential,
The jug has its best fight in a different place! Two equal pilots, flying there planes "in their envolope" jug v KI FLAWLESSLY Which plane wins? I'd vote jug!
the KI will win pretty much every time...I know I have beat the best there is in a jug,on more then one occasion(even though I am one of the worst shots in game and a mediocre pilot) ,..... the only thing a JUG can do against the KI is run, get as much separation as possible, and come back and engage when the KI is fighting his friends....
even if the JUG has massive speed advantage, the KI if drivin properly will avoid the attacking BnZ passes eventually gain enough E to climb with the JUG and take him out....
two planes that are awesome in different aspects....say the 51 against the Hurri2C...one is a BnZ expert one is a Turn and burn expert....if flown by experts in both...will end in a stale mate....the KI has much more then just turning ability, the only thing it lacks is hi speed diving.....the P47 falls short of the KI for its only advantage is the Hi speed dive....while the KI is better at everything else that dictates a fight
I know you P47 fans don't want to hear it or admit it, but the KI is a much better plane for fighting....the Jug is better at attacking stationary targets and escaping.
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Everyone knows Razorback Jugs are the best looking planes out there~ Bring on the P-47D-23 uber Razorback!
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Urbanflotsom1/62d_Fighter_Squadron_P-47_Thunderbolts_-_1944a.jpg)
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My only problem with the Razorbacks is you can't see jack crap out of it - I believe the 109s have a better view!
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Some have a very limited definition of "fighting"...
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the KI will win pretty much every time...I know I have beat the best there is in a jug,on more then one occasion(even though I am one of the worst shots in game and a mediocre pilot) ,..... the only thing a JUG can do against the KI is run, get as much separation as possible, and come back and engage when the KI is fighting his friends....
even if the JUG has massive speed advantage, the KI if drivin properly will avoid the attacking BnZ passes eventually gain enough E to climb with the JUG and take him out....
two planes that are awesome in different aspects....say the 51 against the Hurri2C...one is a BnZ expert one is a Turn and burn expert....if flown by experts in both...will end in a stale mate....the KI has much more then just turning ability, the only thing it lacks is hi speed diving.....the P47 falls short of the KI for its only advantage is the Hi speed dive....while the KI is better at everything else that dictates a fight
I know you P47 fans don't want to hear it or admit it, but the KI is a much better plane for fighting....the Jug is better at attacking stationary targets and escaping.
Ink, go up to 30,000 feet where the P-47 was designed to fight and the Ki-84 is nearly helpless. Any P-47 will completely dominate the Ki-84 up there, with relative ease. The P-47 is a high altitude fighter, almost without peer. Down on the deck, it's out of its element, just as the Ki-84 is up in the stratosphere...
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Ink, go up to 30,000 feet where the P-47 was designed to fight and the Ki-84 is nearly helpless. Any P-47 will completely dominate the Ki-84 up there, with relative ease. The P-47 is a high altitude fighter, almost without peer. Down on the deck, it's out of its element, just as the Ki-84 is up in the stratosphere...
Thus was one reason the P-47 dominated the European theater - squadrons like the 56FG operated at 30,000ft routinely.
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Ink, go up to 30,000 feet where the P-47 was designed to fight and the Ki-84 is nearly helpless. Any P-47 will completely dominate the Ki-84 up there, with relative ease. The P-47 is a high altitude fighter, almost without peer. Down on the deck, it's out of its element, just as the Ki-84 is up in the stratosphere...
That is true, but of very limited use in the AH MA. There simply isn't enough purpose to pull the fights up high in the MAs. Every time I have used a high altitude fighter (Spitfire Mk XIV and P-47N) I am unable to have a fight that stays at altitude. If I do encounter somebody up there, or pull them up there as I once did to an La-7 when I was in a Spitfire Mk XIV, they immediately head for the deck the moment the fight turns against them.
Despite that, I still want a Mosquito NF.30 so that I can play up there in my preferred fighter. The Mk VI gets really unhappy much above 20,000ft.
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the KI will win pretty much every time...I know I have beat the best there is in a jug,on more then one occasion(even though I am one of the worst shots in game and a mediocre pilot) ,..... the only thing a JUG can do against the KI is run, get as much separation as possible, and come back and engage when the KI is fighting his friends....
even if the JUG has massive speed advantage, the KI if drivin properly will avoid the attacking BnZ passes eventually gain enough E to climb with the JUG and take him out....
two planes that are awesome in different aspects....say the 51 against the Hurri2C...one is a BnZ expert one is a Turn and burn expert....if flown by experts in both...will end in a stale mate....the KI has much more then just turning ability, the only thing it lacks is hi speed diving.....the P47 falls short of the KI for its only advantage is the Hi speed dive....while the KI is better at everything else that dictates a fight
I know you P47 fans don't want to hear it or admit it, but the KI is a much better plane for fighting....the Jug is better at attacking stationary targets and escaping.
I'm going to talk about the M and N models
I would say that your a better than average pilot by a long way and no doubt you could kill me in my M jug if you can catch me but I'm not planning on being in a spot where that will happen! If I am stupid enough to get slow near you I deserve to be shot down,,
the jug "M" shines in its speed, in its dive, its roll rate and in its firepower.
The KI has a slight advantage of speed at 10 to 12 k without wep and that is it! with wep the "M" drives away, but the jug must maintain a good "E" state at all times for this to work, the KI accelerates a lot faster than the jug unless you nose it over or if you are going around 250 or faster at the start. the KI has a climb advantage to about 17K then the jug pulls ahead.
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
so if I were to see a KI I would prefer to engage him above 17K, or even better, around 25K I might dive down to 13 K on to BnZ but that is what the plane is good at.
I don't understand why people think a pilot should fly the plane "Out of its element" but I do understand that the game doesn't really have a need for 25K fights and they are rare!
If you like to fly jugs and want to land some kills you better learn how to fly it "In its element" until you become proficient enough to tell another pilots skill level,, I am not all that great at turn fighting and have no doubt you could probably kill me above or below 17K but I would at least want the fight to be there or above just to give me a fighting chance!
as for the other jugs,, don't mess with the KI under 25K unless you want to see the tower really soon, it only has its dive and roll to help and lots of cannon, if your lucky enough to get one in front of you for some reason.
I like to fly the Jug even tho it isn't the best plane in the game and I love to dogfight one v one almost anything while in it, but as long as there are more than one enemy, or the enemy has alt advantage, I will use the bird in what ever way will leave me on top,, and that means running or diving, those are the strengths of the plane, my comment about only an idiot would try to turn fight the KI wasn't really an insult so much as a warning, do as you must, and gain that glory if you get the kill but be aware you are already at a huge disadvantage by being in the jug, slow, turning and falling from the sky slowly to your doom, hope you have enough alt, once you realize the mistake you have made to point the nose strait down and go like heck, or just be happy you got the chance to fight and relish the wins you get!!
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Ink, go up to 30,000 feet where the P-47 was designed to fight and the Ki-84 is nearly helpless. Any P-47 will completely dominate the Ki-84 up there, with relative ease. The P-47 is a high altitude fighter, almost without peer. Down on the deck, it's out of its element, just as the Ki-84 is up in the stratosphere...
this may be true but fights in AH don't happen up there. :D
I am talking typical MA fight ALT's 15k to deck. (I guess I should have said that :o)
do you agree with what I said adding that?
Some have a very limited definition of "fighting"...
attacking a plane with 3 or more cons is not fighting, except for the 1 con.....
running to field ack and letting them kill your nme is not fighting....
putting your nose to the deck and running as fast as possible is not fighting...
running when you lose advantage only to attack the same guy you just ran from when he is engaged with others is not fighting....
I guess you are correct my definition of fighting is limited.
attacking all nme no matter how many there are, at anytime, any advantage, or disadvantage.
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Is there a lack of worthy JUGglers at the moment?
Sounds like some folks need a few lessons in JUGgling :aok
JUGgler
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Is there a lack of worthy JUGglers at the moment?
Sounds like some folks need a few lessons in JUGgling :aok
JUGgler
don't come back....I don't want you to feel bad about getting whopped by some Japanese plane :D
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Is there a lack of worthy JUGglers at the moment?
Sounds like some folks need a few lessons in JUGgling :aok
JUGgler
JUGG's used to fly together a good bit,, and should again!!!! a group of Jug's is hard to beat!
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I keep my convergences at 300 and fly the D40 most the time... At 20k I can BNZ the fellas on spits and La7's and 1v1 any jug, 190, or 51 that comes along. You have to fly the Jug to it's strong points as stated earlier.
Why turn fight a zero or Hurri when you can extend and use the bigger engine to get above ? If I get in trouble at 15-20K I can dive away or extend out far enough to find help.
By keeping my SA up I can dictate what happens, when and where I wanna fight. Sure I can dive in and fight any old Ki84 that I see. But If I am patient and choose the right time to attack, I can get the kill AND land it... I have definitely started to find the niche of the JUG in the game.... discipline and having better then average gunnery goes a LONG WAY! (still working on the gunnery myself)
HUB
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I'd say the Jug does require discipline to get the most out of it. There's a lot it can't do as a dogfighter as well as most of the planeset but it does a few things very, very well so the rules to flying it well are easy to govern in a dynamic environment.
In the typical little MA skirmishes and 1v1s below 10-15k, I think the ki84 gets the edge. By 15k the D40 holds the edge. The thing I really like about the American planes is the WEZ (weapon engagement zone) bestowed by the .50 cals. In a many vs. many, most planes have to "latch" to get a kill including the Ki84,K4 and Spits. "Latching" requires time, sucks away a ton of SA and makes your maneuvers predictable as long as you're prosecuting your target. Not only is the Jug tougher, but Jugs rarely "latch" because it's not something they're successful with. Rarely would I shoot at anything beyond 400 in the -84, there's not a lot of deflection available because of the inferior ballistics and not enough bullets available (only ~10sec cannon) to waste. In the Jug (20-30sec firing time) I can consistently take "hoser" shots out to 800 with more deflection and more confidence in a kill.
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I keep my convergences at 300 and fly the D40 most the time... At 20k I can BNZ the fellas on spits and La7's and 1v1 any jug, 190, or 51 that comes along. You have to fly the Jug to it's strong points as stated earlier.
Why turn fight a zero or Hurri when you can extend and use the bigger engine to get above ? If I get in trouble at 15-20K I can dive away or extend out far enough to find help.
HUB
I see why they call you Hub..
I use the same tactics as he did as well. I like to try to fly in the same way Zembke did. we should wing sometime. I've been in Jugs' since day 1
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I'd say the Jug does require discipline to get the most out of it. There's a lot it can't do as a dogfighter as well as most of the planeset but it does a few things very, very well so the rules to flying it well are easy to govern in a dynamic environment.
In the typical little MA skirmishes and 1v1s below 10-15k, I think the ki84 gets the edge. By 15k the D40 holds the edge. The thing I really like about the American planes is the WEZ (weapon engagement zone) bestowed by the .50 cals. In a many vs. many, most planes have to "latch" to get a kill including the Ki84,K4 and Spits. "Latching" requires time, sucks away a ton of SA and makes your maneuvers predictable as long as you're prosecuting your target. Not only is the Jug tougher, but Jugs rarely "latch" because it's not something they're successful with. Rarely would I shoot at anything beyond 400 in the -84, there's not a lot of deflection available because of the inferior ballistics and not enough bullets available (only ~10sec cannon) to waste. In the Jug (20-30sec firing time) I can consistently take "hoser" shots out to 800 with more deflection and more confidence in a kill.
good write up :aok
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attacking a plane with 3 or more cons is not fighting, except for the 1 con.....
running to field ack and letting them kill your nme is not fighting....
putting your nose to the deck and running as fast as possible is not fighting...
running when you lose advantage only to attack the same guy you just ran from when he is engaged with others is not fighting....
This. Also
only engage when you hold all the cards and even more is not fighting...
endless BnZing a poor con then running when you lose the E is not fighting...
double/triple/etc teaming is not fighting...
Of course, noone excepts you to turn a jug with a zeek, hurri, brew, niki or spit. Also noone expects you to 1v1 when its a 10v10.
Still, this "only fight when my plane is clearly better" thing, now its driving me nuts.
Aye, maybe this game is not for me.
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don't come back....I don't want you to feel bad about getting whopped by some Japanese plane :D
Funny,
Creamed jap planes 23 kills for one death in AvA in my D-11 jug...on the deck...outnumbered vs good sticks
Also had a 5.2 K/D ratio flying jugs in the last tour too...The plane is murderous, just like it was historically in Europe and the Pacific.
:neener:
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Urbanflotsom1/avaz4.jpg)
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Funny,
Creamed jap planes 23 kills for one death in AvA in my D-11 jug...on the deck...outnumbered vs good sticks
Also had a 5.2 K/D ratio flying jugs in the last tour too...The plane is murderous, just like it was historically in Europe and the Pacific.
:neener:
In the jug vs zeek matches, you can just run and pick. Exactly what you did. Yea youre awesome.
Also K/D ratio means nothing. Only shows if youre fighting or picking, Mine was 1.5 yet show me any 5+K/D scoretard who can kill me in 1v1.
but why do i care? :bhead
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Funny,
Creamed jap planes 23 kills for one death in AvA in my D-11 jug...on the deck...outnumbered vs good sticks
Also had a 5.2 K/D ratio flying jugs in the last tour too...The plane is murderous, just like it was historically in Europe and the Pacific.
:neener:
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Urbanflotsom1/avaz4.jpg)
ok ...DA.... show me how great the jug is.....prove to me that your JUG can out fly my KI....seeings how you said on the deck... we will do deck merges....best out of 10....I will eat my words here on BBS......
put your money were your mouth is....I most certainly will. :aok
can you beat Latalis in the JUG?( I highly doubt it)
if not don't bother because you will look like a fool...he lasted all of 3 turns...the second time he lasted a bit longer...and he is a master of that plane....flew it flawlessly, pulled out some Crazy moves..he(<S> Latalis a great stick and great fights Stand up guy)..but whatever....if you think you can take my KI...I don't mind proving how ineffective the JUG is in a fight against a plane designed for....actually fighting....
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In the jug vs zeek matches, you can just run and pick. Exactly what you did. Yea youre awesome.
Also K/D ratio means nothing. Only shows if youre fighting or picking, Mine was 1.5 yet show me any 5+K/D scoretard who can kill me in 1v1.
shhh Mr Ego http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DF3RIoSuGY
I actually have some very good fights v Ki 61s~ zeeks are no match. The point is, Ink is sorely mistaken if he thinks P-47s are an easy pushover; with a jug's speed, firepower and reasonably good maneuverability they can dictate the fight and dispatch any Japanese fighter~ especially in a 1v1. Historically correct as well~ and those victories by pacific jug aces were scored HOing, picking, climbing and extending before reengaging. Just like every other US fighters in the arena that were disadvantaged in a pure turn fight.
Mr Ego yourself Debrody~ Don't think you can be beat 1v1? If that's a challenge, I'm your huckleberry.
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I actually have some very good fights v Ki 61s~ zeeks are no match. The point is, Ink is sorely mistaken if he thinks P-47s are an easy pushover; with a jug's speed, firepower and reasonably good maneuverability they can dictate the fight and dispatch any Japanese fighter~ especially in a 1v1. Historically correct as well~ and those victories by pacific jug aces were scored HOing, picking, climbing and extending before reengaging. Just like every other US fighters in the arena that were disadvantaged in a pure turn fight.
Mr Ego yourself Debrody~ Don't think you can be beat 1v1? If that's a challenge, I'm your huckleberry.
hahaha want me to post the film of me killing 4 jugs in a 4vs1?
the JUG is great at what it does...against the KI it just dont stand a chance....sorry....like I said DA anytime.
if you last 2 minutes after initial merge, I would be surprised.
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Wanna prove anymore what a sorryazz picknrunner you are? Zeeks are no challenge huh? Run and ho? Way to go.
Yea dude some can beat me but none of them is bragging about their awesome MA kill/death.
Couse ho and run takes NO skills.
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ok ...DA.... show me how great the jug is.....prove to me that your JUG can out fly my KI....seeings how you said on the deck... we will do deck merges....best out of 10....I will eat my words here on BBS......
put your money were your mouth is....I most certainly will. :aok
Sounds fun~ I'm in, back on land Thursday, find me in MW. May the best pilot/plane win :salute
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Sounds fun~ I'm in, back on land Thursday, find me in MW. May the best pilot/plane win :salute
whats your ingame name? mine is JETSOM...are we on for Thursday? what time? anytime after 4 eastern is good for me.
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Wanna prove anymore what a sorryazz picknrunner you are? Zeeks are no challenge huh? Run and ho? Way to go.
Yea dude some can beat me but none of them is bragging about their awesome MA kill/death.
Couse ho and run takes NO skills.
Your funny, you want to turn fight a zeek with a jug? I'll fly the zeek, and see how long it takes for you to run or get picked to bits. Don't be a moron, you fly a plane to its strengths or you die, I'm sure you can appreciate that. If I was to just HO cannon armed opponents I would be dead 1/2 of the time, even against zeeks and especially Ki's~ so there goes that theory. P-47s are formidable planes if you manage your speed and energy wisely and anyone who underestimates them will be in for a nasty surprise~ even in the hands of a mediocre pilot like myself.
My in game name is Seadog36, see you Thursday pm eastern JETSOM.
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Your funny, you want to turn fight a zeek with a jug? I'll fly the zeek, and see how long it takes for you to run or get picked to bits. Don't be a moron, you fly a plane to its strengths or you die, I'm sure you can appreciate that. If I was to just HO cannon armed opponents I would be dead 1/2 of the time, even against zeeks and especially Ki's~ so there goes that theory. P-47s are formidable planes if you manage your speed and energy wisely and anyone who underestimates them will be in for a nasty surprise~ even in the hands of a mediocre pilot like myself.
My in game name is Seadog36, see you Thursday pm eastern JETSOM.
I agree that the JUG is a tough plane....but it is NOT a turn fighter at typical MA ALTS....it was not designed for that...
C ya Thursday :aok
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in the jug vs zeek matches, you can just run and pick. Exactly what you did.
Which is basically how US planes fought Japanese by the end of the war.
I once asked a US WWII F6 pilot about how bad the visibility was on his 6 (rear of F6) and he said "if I missed the zero I was not about to turn around anyway so it did not matter". :old:
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And what you would like to say with that?
"DFC - promoting air combat maneuvering in a horde monkey world"
Once again, im not expecting anyone turning a jug with a zeek, hurri, brew or spit. But the jug isnt half as bad, a good jug pilot can successfully scissor with many planes.
More than possible if someone is riding on his good K/D, he isnt a fighter type. And takes absolutely no skills to run from every situation when they have the slightest chance to get you. Thats my point.
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can you beat Latalis in the JUG?( I highly doubt it)
Yes! well at least when I played.
I agree in comparison to a ki84 the JUG is ponderous at best but don't underestimate the mighty FAT ONE!
You just may run into one that might suprise you :D But then again, the thought of playing this game again gives me a headache :(
JUGgler
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Debrody I agree with you that it can be a blast to fully engage a turn-fighter-plane (Spit etc.) with a boom-and-zoomer (P47 etc.). Of course hybrid birds too. In either case to engage in close combat.
Many try to do that because it is a blast. I do...and die a lot but I don't care about my score. That is why I ask so many questions I think. To understand these birds at deeper levels where minor things can matter. Especially in close combat.
Then again, sometimes I just boom-and-zoom when encountering a horde. Stick and move. No latching. Latching = death.
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Yes! well at least when I played.
I agree in comparison to a ki84 the JUG is ponderous at best but don't underestimate the mighty FAT ONE!
You just may run into one that might suprise you :D But then again, the thought of playing this game again gives me a headache :(
JUGgler
latalis is the only one that surprised me flying the JUG, I would like to see you guys go at it, I think he would win.
I am talking at your best him his...then again I don't remember fighting you in it, if we did, I stand by what I say because I will always remember fighting Latalis he pulled moves in that thing that No one else has...
obviously no dis respect to ya, just saying what I feel is all...
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This is a great article:
CAPTAIN LEROY V. GROSSHUESCH
http://webpages.charter.net/jimdoss/12to1/GROSSHUESCH.htm
basically an excerpt from a book called "Fighter Combat Tactics in the Southwest Pacific Area" This book is a compilation of articles of the most successful USAAF P-47, P-38 and P-51 pilots. They all say the same thing, keep up your speed, boom and zoom, extend take head on, snap shots and extend. Do not turn past 90 degrees if you want to survive.
While not as exciting or fun as turning with a closely matched opponent, in an Axis v Allies, it's fun to recreate the tactics of our best pilots~ in historical match ups. Ki Tonys with their good speed, climb rate and firepower are a real handful.
Some good stories in that book, inexpensive paperback if you are interested in that arena.
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So you still wanna prove how awesome it is to run and ho? My mind is blown. :bhead :bhead
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This is a great article:
CAPTAIN LEROY V. GROSSHUESCH
http://webpages.charter.net/jimdoss/12to1/GROSSHUESCH.htm
basically an excerpt from a book called "Fighter Combat Tactics in the Southwest Pacific Area" This book is a compilation of articles of the most successful USAAF P-47, P-38 and P-51 pilots. They all say the same thing, keep up your speed, boom and zoom, extend take head on, snap shots and extend. Do not turn past 90 degrees if you want to survive.
While not as exciting or fun as turning with a closely matched opponent, in an Axis v Allies, it's fun to recreate the tactics of our best pilots~ in historical match ups. Ki Tonys with their good speed, climb rate and firepower are a real handful.
Some good stories in that book, inexpensive paperback if you are interested in that arena.
You realize there was a war going on and when you died in that war...you died.
This is a game, you die and you can re-up. Am I guilt free of whining when I die a stupid death in AH? No, but I move on.
I play this WW2 *combat* flight simulator for the fight. If you want to play a *combat* flight sim to fly in a circles and straight lines, then do it offline with the drones.
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You realize there was a war going on and when you died in that war...you died.
This is a game, you die and you can re-up. Am I guilt free of whining when I die a stupid death in AH? No, but I move on.
I play this WW2 *combat* flight simulator for the fight. If you want to play a *combat* flight sim to fly in a circles and straight lines, then do it offline with the drones.
Who do you think you are to tell someone how to fly in a game, even if that remotely described me? I mix it up and get killed all the time flying dozens of different aircraft and gvs. I don't fly like my parents are going to get a letter and my effects in a box if I die :rofl.
I prefer not to fight like an idiot and do more killing than dying~ BnZ is *combat* and I like to kill dummies like you so you can have the opportunity to reup and die again, glad you are ok with that :aok
More than that, the best part of the game is the teamwork and relationships with the people I play with and against~ great community.
~ Flame on!
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Who do you think you are to tell someone how to fly in a game, even if that remotely described me? I mix it up and get killed all the time flying dozens of different aircraft and gvs. I don't fly like my parents are going to get a letter and my effects in a box if I die :rofl.
I prefer not to fight like an idiot and do more killing than dying~ BnZ is *combat* and I like to kill dummies like you so you can have the opportunity to reup and die again, glad you are ok with that :aok
More than that, the best part of the game is the teamwork and relationships with the people I play with and against~ great community.
~ Flame on!
I'd like to see you try. :)
Try not to auger into the ground.
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I'm a pretty dern good jug pilot and I tend to agree with Jetsom. At MA altitudes with equal pilots a KI-84 is more than a match for a Jug. The key to fighting a superior climbing/turning aircraft is maintaining speeds above 250 which is why I say the jug has a chance till it runs out of altitude at which time it will be tough to maintain those speeds while the KI sets up the perch. Sure a jug could extend and come back with a full head of steam but that would be a totally new fight IMO.
I dont pretend to be the best jug lilot in game but I think I might last longer than 3 turns though.
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This is a great article:
CAPTAIN LEROY V. GROSSHUESCH
http://webpages.charter.net/jimdoss/12to1/GROSSHUESCH.htm
basically an excerpt from a book called "Fighter Combat Tactics in the Southwest Pacific Area" This book is a compilation of articles of the most successful USAAF P-47, P-38 and P-51 pilots. They all say the same thing, keep up your speed, boom and zoom, extend take head on, snap shots and extend. Do not turn past 90 degrees if you want to survive.
While not as exciting or fun as turning with a closely matched opponent, in an Axis v Allies, it's fun to recreate the tactics of our best pilots~ in historical match ups. Ki Tonys with their good speed, climb rate and firepower are a real handful.
Some good stories in that book, inexpensive paperback if you are interested in that arena.
I like this article and squad :devil
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I'm a pretty dern good jug pilot and I tend to agree with Jetsom. At MA altitudes with equal pilots a KI-84 is more than a match for a Jug. The key to fighting a superior climbing/turning aircraft is maintaining speeds above 250 which is why I say the jug has a chance till it runs out of altitude at which time it will be tough to maintain those speeds while the KI sets up the perch. Sure a jug could extend and come back with a full head of steam but that would be a totally new fight IMO.
I dont pretend to be the best jug lilot in game but I think I might last longer than 3 turns though.
Definitely need to get your licks in, in the vertical when you can work the flaps without killing all your e. Ki and D11 are the same speed up to 7k WEPed out and the Ki has better climb rate below 20k. I'm sure on the deck merges with Jetsom are going to make for some tough fights.
What Jug do you favor?
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Definitely need to get your licks in, in the vertical when you can work the flaps without killing all your e. Ki and D11 are the same speed up to 7k WEPed out and the Ki has better climb rate below 20k. I'm sure on the deck merges with Jetsom are going to make for some tough fights.
What Jug do you favor?
tough fights? you will see :D
but I am willing to give you some kind of chance...we should do 5 on the deck 5 at 5K, 5 at 10K, 5 at 15K, 5 at 20K, 5at25K, ECT ECT we will keep going up till you win 5 in a row....
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tough fights? you will see :D
but I am willing to give you some kind of chance...we should do 5 on the deck 5 at 5K, 5 at 10K, 5 at 15K, 5 at 20K, 5at25K, ECT ECT we will keep going up till you win 5 in a row....
You are very kind~
Lets start at 25k and we could put this to bed quickly. :devil
Lets just shoot for best of 10 and have some fun, don't need to make a career out of this match up. Should be pretty clear who is more capable in their ride after 5 fights.
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Definitely need to get your licks in, in the vertical when you can work the flaps without killing all your e. Ki and D11 are the same speed up to 7k WEPed out and the Ki has better climb rate below 20k. I'm sure on the deck merges with Jetsom are going to make for some tough fights.
What Jug do you favor?
My preference depends on the mission. I prefer the D-25 for general dogfighting. The D-40 is my ground attack plane. The M is my horde suppression fighter. I think the D-40 is the best all around Jug. The N is slightly better with WEP but is a complete dog once it runs out. Last time I killed Juggler in the N, it was because he ran out of WEP in the vert.
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I'm a pretty dern good jug pilot and I tend to agree with Jetsom. At MA altitudes with equal pilots a KI-84 is more than a match for a Jug. The key to fighting a superior climbing/turning aircraft is maintaining speeds above 250 which is why I say the jug has a chance till it runs out of altitude at which time it will be tough to maintain those speeds while the KI sets up the perch. Sure a jug could extend and come back with a full head of steam but that would be a totally new fight IMO.
I dont pretend to be the best jug lilot in game but I think I might last longer than 3 turns though.
I agree mak, you would last longer than 3 turns, and I'd put safe money on you to win :salute
Everyone here is neglecting possibly the greatest advantage the JUG has over the ki84!!! Actually it is a great asset for the JUG against any adversary ;)
Someone needs to give ink a dose of JUGMILITY or I might be forced to return, and that makes me sad :(
BTW going back to the OP post, the D25 is the worst JUG of the lot, BUT it usually is the one "good JUGGIES" choose. The D25 turns moderately better than the D40 but it is not a significant difference. The D40 holds E extremely well for a JUG, almost as good as the N, For me the D40 always felt nose heavy but the added E retention could be a nasty suprise for anyone who took it for granted! Sometimes if there was a lot of corsairs around I would use the D40, my preference is the D25 but it is hard to not take the "N"aughty lady out once in awhile, she is so gracefull. I like to say the N is the pallet for the "artistic" JUGgy :O
:salute
JUGgler
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That standard nearly-ram-merge thing that all official duels start with is a loser for the jug....most good MA fights don't seem to start that way
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I agree mak, you would last longer than 3 turns, and I'd put safe money on you to win :salute
Everyone here is neglecting possibly the greatest advantage the JUG has over the ki84!!! Actually it is a great asset for the JUG against any adversary ;)
Someone needs to give ink a dose of JUGMILITY or I might be forced to return, and that makes me sad :(
BTW going back to the OP post, the D25 is the worst JUG of the lot, BUT it usually is the one "good JUGGIES" choose. The D25 turns moderately better than the D40 but it is not a significant difference. The D40 holds E extremely well for a JUG, almost as good as the N, For me the D40 always felt nose heavy but the added E retention could be a nasty suprise for anyone who took it for granted! Sometimes if there was a lot of corsairs around I would use the D40, my preference is the D25 but it is hard to not take the "N"aughty lady out once in awhile, she is so gracefull. I like to say the N is the pallet for the "artistic" JUGgy :O
:salute
JUGgler
:rofl
sorry bro but I will make you look silly in a JUG vs KI fight :aok
come on back....don't be scured....put up or....well you know the rest. :D
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:rofl
sorry bro but I will make you look silly in a JUG vs KI fight :aok
come on back....don't be scured....put up or....well you know the rest. :D
Gotta love it when the guy flying the spit16 of Japanese aircraft talks smack about turn fighting against a Jug.
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Gotta love it when the guy flying the spit16 of Japanese aircraft talks smack about turn fighting against a Jug.
To be fair, he's only responding to the challenge. Same as if a Jug pilot told a Spit 16 pilot that he'd usually win the fight.
- oldman
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:rofl
sorry bro but I will make you look silly in a JUG vs KI fight :aok
come on back....don't be scured....put up or....well you know the rest. :D
I don't know how I would look silly other than the way I usualy look :D But honestly using the ki84 is like playing poker and being dealt 3 natural aces every hand :aok But it is not unbeatable :aok
JUGgler
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To be fair, he's only responding to the challenge. Same as if a Jug pilot told a Spit 16 pilot that he'd usually win the fight.
- oldman
Never said I would usualy win the fight, I said he may be suprised ;)
JUGgler
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The difference is everyone still thinks the jug should go down to the KI fight,,,
let Ink Climb up to 26K and shoot al those jugs down,,,, let's see that super ubber KI killing ability in the jugs home turf
I think INK Is a far better than average pilot but how many jugs has he killed up high?
How many jugs has anyone killed on its home turf with a KI, niki, 26K and up?
A few maybe but I doubt anyone can say they killed All comers,,
wich is what INK is sayin about any jug that goes down into his territory !
To fly the jug in aces high is a handicap in itself as if you fly it correctly, you'll be all alone most of the time, at alt, shooting at passing bombers on occasion !
If you want to fight, you have to leave its comort zone and head into everyone else's !
Not quite fair for a Jug driver that wants to fly it in its inviroment but we take what we can get!
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You are very kind~
Lets start at 25k and we could put this to bed quickly. :devil
Lets just shoot for best of 10 and have some fun, don't need to make a career out of this match up. Should be pretty clear who is more capable in their ride after 5 fights.
Do you want to start on his 6 as well in this best out of 10?
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Do you want to start on his 6 as well in this best out of 10?
Oh I bet a head on pass at 25 K would suffice!
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But honestly using the ki84 is like playing poker and being dealt 3 natural aces every hand
The Ki-84 is good, but its not that good.
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Gotta love it when the guy flying the spit16 of Japanese aircraft talks smack about turn fighting against a Jug.
:rofl
what does that even mean...if I am in a spit the KI is easy to kill. :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
The difference is everyone still thinks the jug should go down to the KI fight,,,
let Ink Climb up to 26K and shoot al those jugs down,,,, let's see that super ubber KI killing ability in the jugs home turf
I think INK Is a far better than average pilot but how many jugs has he killed up high?
How many jugs has anyone killed on its home turf with a KI, niki, 26K and up?
A few maybe but I doubt anyone can say they killed All comers,,
wich is what INK is sayin about any jug that goes down into his territory !
To fly the jug in aces high is a handicap in itself as if you fly it correctly, you'll be all alone most of the time, at alt, shooting at passing bombers on occasion !
If you want to fight, you have to leave its comort zone and head into everyone else's !
Not quite fair for a Jug driver that wants to fly it in its inviroment but we take what we can get!
this is my point..... fights don't happen at the JUGs ideal territory....its unfair against the JUG to fight the KI at typical MA ALT fights....I certainly don't dispute that way up there the JUG has the advantage and should win....
to see all you guys talking like the JUG stands a chance against the KI in typical MA ALTS is funny.....and sad really...you guys just cant face the truth....
I mean cmon...seriously.... :rolleyes:
The Ki-84 is good, but its not that good.
:rofl
I was told recently it is the BEST fighter ingame......while I was fighting 5+ in spits, one bragged he got an assist on me :rofl :rofl :rofl
the plane is just a tool......the pilot is who you fight, but when you try to use a hammer to screw in a screw...it just don't work very well no matter how good you are at screwing in screws.
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The Ki-84 is good, but its not that good.
In the AH style of play where most fights happen or degrade below 10K the KI84 IMHO is easily in the top 3 of aircraft in this environement!
couple this with a "multi threat environment it may well be #1
The only down side to the ki84 is its hi speed handling and this is mitigated a bit by compitent trim control, also all fight speeds degrade to the KIs sweet spot after a turn or 2. Lets not even discuss what the plane is like when you get slow enough to deploy flaps :O
I would be very suprised if most folks did not agree with this!
JUGgler
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In the AH style of play where most fights happen or degrade below 10K the KI84 IMHO is easily in the top 3 of aircraft in this environement!
couple this with a "multi threat environment it may well be #1
The only down side to the ki84 is its hi speed handling and this is mitigated a bit by compitent trim control, also all fight speeds degrade to the KIs sweet spot after a turn or 2. Lets not even discuss what the plane is like when you get slow enough to deploy flaps :O
I would be very suprised if most folks did not agree with this!
JUGgler
I agree with this...except with the High speed....get it close to 500 and parts come off....trim isn't all that much help....that is the only issue with it, but considering how I fly I don't need that speed.
the only planes that I have a hard time with (as long as the person who is in it knows what he is doing, that is) are spit 5's spit 8's 9's 16's....and the Hurri2C...so I would say it's in the top 5......for strictly Fighting.
this is why I started flying the KI.... it is great for fighting the Hoard.... with some ALT it is almost untouchable....
another thing I love about the KI is it's ability to take a beating, it cant take as much as a JUG but it can really take some punishment for a Japanese plane.
I forgot the N1K in the right hands can be difficult.... although it is rare to find someone who is really good in that.
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Been working with the D25 and finding I like it a lot. Feels solid and turns well for a Jug. Surprisingly I am finding the turn radius is not that huge between the D11 and D25.
LilMak and other hardcore 47 guys, where and why do you like setting your convergence in the D25?
Thanks again,
Slade :salute
Inner 400, outter 350.
I mostly like the D-25 on bombing GVs. I will also take them into air to air fights.
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seems even at 20+K the KI is no match for the 47.....
anybody wanna venture a guess how many times the KI lost? except when it was KIvsKI
mostly good honorable fights, except first fight was supposed to be deck merge.... I fly along on the deck and see his dot up at about 4k :headscratch: I thought this was a sign of a tard...but whatever, the extra E didn't give him an edge.
HO on one of the fights...so next pass I admit I HOed him back ....felt bad about it...... :o
those were the only 2 things that were not kosher...he at least showed up and fought,I changed my mind by time we were done...he seems like a nice enough guy.
:salute
Seadog
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so what was the final tally?
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so what was the final tally?
8-0 with the last 3 in KI's
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8-0 with the last 3 in KI's
I dont think Ink has a K/D of 2 in the MAs. Time to end my sarcasm...
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seems even at 20+K the KI is no match for the 47.....
anybody wanna venture a guess how many times the KI lost? except when it was KIvsKI
mostly good honorable fights, except first fight was supposed to be deck merge.... I fly along on the deck and see his dot up at about 4k :headscratch: I thought this was a sign of a tard...but whatever, the extra E didn't give him an edge.
HO on one of the fights...so next pass I admit I HOed him back ....felt bad about it...... :o
those were the only 2 things that were not kosher...he at least showed up and fought,I changed my mind by time we were done...he seems like a nice enough guy.
:salute
Seadog
The Ki84 is a lot more formidable than the zeek3s and Ki 61s I was obliterating in AvA, its a fast turney monster:rofl INK did a wonderful job of demonstrating that :salute Even at 20k it was only marginally better~ I imaging the 84 doesn't get really gassed until you are 25k or over.
Pick and zoom from alt is the only way to get a KI 84 in the hands of a good stick~ I have to admit the 47 is totally outclassed in a coalt merge, and that is probably why allies never fought them like that when possible. If I spent more time in Late War I would probably have know that. <S> INK
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The Ki84 is a lot more formidable than the zeek3s and Ki 61s I was obliterating in AvA, its a fast turney monster:rofl INK did a wonderful job of demonstrating that :salute Even at 20k it was only marginally better~ I imaging the 84 doesn't get really gassed until you are 25k or over.
Pick and zoom from alt is the only way to get a KI 84 in the hands of a good stick~ I have to admit the 47 is totally outclassed in a coalt merge, and that is probably why allies never fought them like that when possible. If I spent more time in Late War I would probably have know that. <S> INK
47 is a great bird for its use...the type of fighting in AH does not lend to that...even at ALT....maybe 30K or more, but I have never gone that high, most are under 15K....
that's all I was saying I wasn't trying to dis the 47 it is a great plane, but the KI is a monster,at typical MA fights....
I feel it is the best second to only the spits....the spit driver better be damn good though or even that plane will go down to the Mighty KI :D
<S> Seadog
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The Ki-84 isn't a monster... Very capable, but no monster. The 109F-4 or 109G-2 are very much its equal, and both of these date back 3 and 2 years (respectively) before the Ki-84 saw combat. Likewise, the 1943 vintage La-5FN can, and will give the Ki-84 all it can handle. Any of the Corsairs are a real threat to the Ki-84, with the F4U-4 dominating it without drama (then again, the F4U-4 is the best air to air fighter in the plane set). Those early 109s are not very lethal in snapshot opportunities, so you really have to maneuver for a kill. But, that's the fun part. Except that you're more vulnerable to the pickers...
Last evening, I ran across a P-47D-25 flown by FastRide (whoever that is...). We merged at about 2k, and I reversed hard for the kill. It took about 10 seconds to get on the Jug's six. So, FastRide pulls off power and dumps flaps. He begins weaving. I took a snapshot (scoring well enough), then went vertical and rolled back in. A few more hits. The Jug is still flopping around, helpless, when I see another Jug diving in, just 1k out. I break right, nose low and haul around. The Jug can't get guns on and blows by. I spot the other P-47 turning and he's at my 10 o'clock, level with me. We are on a heading to intersect, and just before we do, I go vertical. The FastRide pulls his nose up and sprays. 1 ping on my 109, but it gets my oil, although it's inconsequential.. I drop in on his six again, and once more FastRide dumps flaps and does his best to force an overshoot. To no avail. I just work up and down, and a 20mm hits his cockpit just as a picker makes a run (I tend to dislike picking, from both friend and foe). I went after the other Jug, but someone ran him down first. I had to settle for just the one as I was running out of oil.
Anyway, the facts are that the P-47 can survive these fights, but it depends on how poor the enemy is, rather than how good the Jug is. Down in the weeds, without much E, it's just target practice. You have to fly the P-47s to their strengths, and only resort to maneuvering with flaps in desperation. Come in with some altitude, know where the enemy is, and never, ever waste E for low percentage shots. Keep the Jug light and if you have to skedaddle, do so wisely.
Go back about 8 years, and one of the most fearsome squads in the game was the 56th FG. Lots of capable pilots, who flew well as a team and exploited the P-47's strengths. Their discipline and wingman tactics made it very hard to isolate and beat them one at a time. You would quickly find yourself very busy.
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The Ki-84 feels a lot more nimble than the Bf109F-4 and Bf109G-2, probably due to roll rate. Cockpit visibility is also better in the Ki-84 as is speed down low. I am not sure how they fare turning against each other.
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Hmmm....Next time you see me on INK. Let's hit the DA. I want to see if I can last more than 3 turns. 7k merge. After initial pass, guns are hot. Best 2 outa 3.
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The Ki-84 feels a lot more nimble than the Bf109F-4 and Bf109G-2, probably due to roll rate. Cockpit visibility is also better in the Ki-84 as is speed down low. I am not sure how they fare turning against each other.
Highly depends on the pilot. I would take my G6 against 98% of the ki sticks, even match for me. Not against Ink tho.
A real good ki stick can force the climbing rolling scissors and gain advantage from his planes better reversals/hammerheads (if you ever seen nrshida). The ki can can kill any opponent with one snapshot too.
In the other hand the 109 can perform the low yoyo much better and is superior in the downhill. Its single MG is easy to aim, even tho its firepower is limited.
Back to the jug... Widewing summed it up pretty good.
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The Ki-84 feels a lot more nimble than the Bf109F-4 and Bf109G-2, probably due to roll rate. Cockpit visibility is also better in the Ki-84 as is speed down low. I am not sure how they fare turning against each other.
The F-4 is a good match for the Ki. A touch less in speed, roll, vis and firepower but with sustained WEP, roughly same climb and roughly same turn rate/radius without flaps. The F-4 has a definite edge in the ~170-250 airspeed band where it can drops flaps and the Ki cannot. The 84 vs G-2 matchup is closer and the G-6 loses to the 84 all things being equal. While I fear the 84 and F-4 when twisting in a light Jug, I seem to have much better success against the G-2 and G-6 and will often slow to engage these types in (fun) turn fights with decent odds of success.
I like both the -84 and G-2 but have flown the G-2 a bit more for reasons unknown, maybe the "ENY efficiency" of it. The roll, vis and especially toughness advantages of the -84 make it a better choice down low against a spit horde imho.
BreakBreak:
Is there even a single dedicated Jug squad left in the game?
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The Ki-84 isn't a monster... Very capable, but no monster. The 109F-4 or 109G-2 are very much its equal, and both of these date back 3 and 2 years (respectively) before the Ki-84 saw combat. Likewise, the 1943 vintage La-5FN can, and will give the Ki-84 all it can handle. Any of the Corsairs are a real threat to the Ki-84, with the F4U-4 dominating it without drama (then again, the F4U-4 is the best air to air fighter in the plane set). Those early 109s are not very lethal in snapshot opportunities, so you really have to maneuver for a kill. But, that's the fun part. Except that you're more vulnerable to the pickers...
Last evening, I ran across a P-47D-25 flown by FastRide (whoever that is...). We merged at about 2k, and I reversed hard for the kill. It took about 10 seconds to get on the Jug's six. So, FastRide pulls off power and dumps flaps. He begins weaving. I took a snapshot (scoring well enough), then went vertical and rolled back in. A few more hits. The Jug is still flopping around, helpless, when I see another Jug diving in, just 1k out. I break right, nose low and haul around. The Jug can't get guns on and blows by. I spot the other P-47 turning and he's at my 10 o'clock, level with me. We are on a heading to intersect, and just before we do, I go vertical. The FastRide pulls his nose up and sprays. 1 ping on my 109, but it gets my oil, although it's inconsequential.. I drop in on his six again, and once more FastRide dumps flaps and does his best to force an overshoot. To no avail. I just work up and down, and a 20mm hits his cockpit just as a picker makes a run (I tend to dislike picking, from both friend and foe). I went after the other Jug, but someone ran him down first. I had to settle for just the one as I was running out of oil.
Anyway, the facts are that the P-47 can survive these fights, but it depends on how poor the enemy is, rather than how good the Jug is. Down in the weeds, without much E, it's just target practice. You have to fly the P-47s to their strengths, and only resort to maneuvering with flaps in desperation. Come in with some altitude, know where the enemy is, and never, ever waste E for low percentage shots. Keep the Jug light and if you have to skedaddle, do so wisely.
Go back about 8 years, and one of the most fearsome squads in the game was the 56th FG. Lots of capable pilots, who flew well as a team and exploited the P-47's strengths. Their discipline and wingman tactics made it very hard to isolate and beat them one at a time. You would quickly find yourself very busy.
all those planes you listed as giving the KI a fight...I agree but I don't at the same time..... any of the corsairs are a tough fight with someone who knows them...it really does depend on who is flying it.
Hmmm....Next time you see me on INK. Let's hit the DA. I want to see if I can last more than 3 turns. 7k merge. After initial pass, guns are hot. Best 2 outa 3.
love to :aok
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BreakBreak:
Is there even a single dedicated Jug squad left in the game?
Mine...with a total number of 1 though. Happy to take all commers with a love of the 7 Ton Milk Jug.
Great fights last night by the way. <S>
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Mine...with a total number of 1 though. Happy to take all commers with a love of the 7 Ton Milk Jug.
Great fights last night by the way. <S>
I'm the one man Jug Squad of MW where it really does especially well against those plane sets. 9 new(old but just introduced) D11 skins, how great is that?~ mostly pacific squadrons too and a really nice 1st Air Commandos skin.
I could probably use some jug coaching as I am mostly self taught ~ Letalis and LilMak <S>
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The Ki84 is a lot more formidable than the zeek3s and Ki 61s I was obliterating in AvA, its a fast turney monster:rofl INK did a wonderful job of demonstrating that :salute Even at 20k it was only marginally better~ I imaging the 84 doesn't get really gassed until you are 25k or over.
Pick and zoom from alt is the only way to get a KI 84 in the hands of a good stick~ I have to admit the 47 is totally outclassed in a coalt merge, and that is probably why allies never fought them like that when possible. If I spent more time in Late War I would probably have know that. <S> INK
Sigh!
It will be sad if I have to return! :frown:
Besides Grizz and Lippy I have yet to find a ki84 driver that owned my JUG so completely and even then I had the occasional brilliance or luck :angel:
I suspect the results here shows a greater disparity in experience than anything else!
I bet it was fun none the less
:cheers:
JUGgler
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I'm the one man Jug Squad of MW where it really does especially well against those plane sets. 9 new(old but just introduced) D11 skins, how great is that?~ mostly pacific squadrons too and a really nice 1st Air Commandos skin.
I could probably use some jug coaching as I am mostly self taught ~ Letalis and LilMak <S>
D-11 poor match against PJ
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Sigh!
It will be sad if I have to return! :frown:
Besides Grizz and Lippy I have yet to find a ki84 driver that owned my JUG so completely and even then I had the occasional brilliance or luck :angel:
I suspect the results here shows a greater disparity in experience than anything else!
I bet it was fun none the less
:cheers:
JUGgler
:lol
that's all I am gonna say :lol
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Been flying the Jug since being in Aces High almost 13 years. It is a suprise to some on how well it can turn. Rolls great also.
The turn radius at proper speed is very good. The problem is that it will dump E quickly in that turn. Very Very slow it can stay airborn
when others can not (D11 comes to mind...D40 also very slow). In a good speed turn it suprises P51s. Turns inside of them when it is
light and on the deck if the speed is favorable...evenly matched.
The P47s strengths will always be at altitude however. That belly ain't for a baby P47 it's for the supercharger. They originally were
designed for Bomber escort and high alt performance. The problem with on the deck fighting for the P47 is low alt acceleration and weight.
If you have to get the nose up at 150 mph....you won't....to time consuming and energy bleeding unless you wish to reverse. If ya
don't quite make it you're dead LOL.
It's strength is 25K and over. The unknowing K4 driver trying to go nose up to climb away will quickly find the M Jug gaining on it in the climb.
It's a beast at that alt. And the N Jug at that alt has bigger wings to grab more air along with the R-2800 that is the most powerful of all
fighter engines.....shared with the M and I believe the F4U-4.
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In a good speed turn it suprises P51s. Turns inside of them when it is
light and on the deck if the speed is favorable...evenly matched.
Did some tests with Titan from the Top Gun, jug vs pony, 25% fuel deck turnfights.
The Jug won every time, and did it very quickly. We switched the rides and the jug won again, easily.
The matchups were Bravo vs D11 and Delta vs N-jug.
It's strength is 25K and over. The unknowing K4 driver trying to go nose up to climb away will quickly find the M Jug gaining on it in the climb.
It's a beast at that alt.
Yup its a beast up high, but must be a real boring arse poor K4 pilot trying to BnZ a jug, at any altitude ;)
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The pony can't stall fight like the Jug can. Everytime I fought Deb in a pony and brought it under 100mph, it would snap stall into a left hand spin. I kept it from auguring but not without massive rudder work while Deb was using that time to get on my 6. Once the Jug is on the Ponies six, you can't shake him off. Jug turns better, and handles the slow speeds better.
One of our fights, I tried bringing it up hill and it worked somewhat, the Jug couldn't follow up enough for a shot, but I couldn't get a shot either when coming back down because the Jug can pull turns tighter at low speeds.
More or less the same when I switched over to the Jug too, although Deb managed to kill my twice out of 7 or 8 times we did it because I made a silly mistake. Fun fights Deb.
Long story short, Jug eats a Pony in an equal E fight.
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Long story short, Jug eats a Pony in an equal E fight.
So does the P38J-L, and in that case you can't even get your nose up in the 51
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It rare that a pony will take down my Jug 1 on 1. Jug Definately has better low speed characteristics (turn/stability) than the 51 and is equal in the high speed manuvers. The pony has better E retention in the vertical but not quite enough power to pull away when the speeds get low. Best option for the pony is to disengage by a level drag race (don't try and dive away) and get a new perch before coming back in.
Planes I fear in the Jug...
KI-84, 109-F, FW190-A5
...not so much because of the planes but the sticks who fly them are usually above average.
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P-51D is outstanding above 17k, however Not sure what aircraft it can beat on the deck in a dog fight, if I chose the P38L, Mosquito, dora and 51 in a flat turn, pretty sure the 51 wins without flaps against both 38L and the dora, with flaps every plane should beat it - I think even the dora is roughly even with flaps down in a flat turn.
Mustang is just a long range escort fighter, not a pure dog fighter, in this sense you can't compare it to even a Dora 9 which was basically an interceptor - which doesn't follow the same combat guidelines.
Every aircraft comes with an operating altitude, the P51 stands out above 17-24k - which means its performance is on top of the charts, one reason you don't see an La7 up at 20k.
This being said, take a P47D-11 up to 30k and watch it school any plane under a Tier 5 aircraft.
Comparing the 51D to any P-47 is basically apples to oranges.
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I find it interesting that this thread has become full of absolutes!
Even Ink has gone away from his "It's the pilot" stance to absolute "ki84 will own any JUG". It has become very interesting to me that all the things a player can do and try is just ignored in favor of "absolutes".
If there is one thing I've learned about this game over the year it's, As soon as you think you and your plane are untouchable, someone comes along and quickly puts you in your place!
Also you all still ignore the 1 great advantage the JUG has over many many opponents! :devil
I think 0lDemon and GrmRpr may have a thing or 2 to say on how the pony performs in the mud :aok
JUGgler
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Juggler you are comparing 1 pilot to the hundreds of thousands of sorties flown in a 51.
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Doesn't matter how good someone is, a vet will never be able to kill a two weeker in a 262 while he is in a D3A. There are certain plane matchups that you simply cannot beat.
Take a P40C, put it against a F4U4. No matter how good, no matter how bad, the P40 will never touch the F4U. Even a two week noob knows to drop flaps and turn in a circle, and the F4U will eventually outturn the P40.
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Take a P40C, put it against a F4U4. No matter how good, no matter how bad, the P40 will never touch the F4U. Even a two week noob knows to drop flaps and turn in a circle, and the F4U will eventually outturn the P40.
I've seen 10 years AH vets unable to turn their F4U4 against a P51....but this out of the topic.
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Doesn't matter how good someone is, a vet will never be able to kill a two weeker in a 262 while he is in a D3A. There are certain plane matchups that you simply cannot beat.
I outturned many jugs on the deck in a 262 (yes, low alt full flaps rolling scissors), yet lost some to m3s, brewsters, TBM etc and one even to a PT boat.
Outscissored, overshot and killed many zeeks in a g6 yet lost one to LilMak's jug (in a medium speed scissors, co-E).
Tell me what a spitteen cant do at least 20% better than a 109G6. Tell this to all those dead spitteen pilots who failed to overshoot my brick.
My point is: everything is possible, maybe has a really very low chance, but possible.
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There are certainly no absolutes in the game Juggler but I've seen you call out that you would own yourself in a mixed plane fight (KI vs Jug).
Sometimes it comes down to styles. I've found there are certain players who are reputable monsters in their plane of choice who I can bring down with regularity and others who, in the same plane, will ring my bell every time. Sometimes style matchups are as important as plane choice.
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Doesn't matter how good someone is, a vet will never be able to kill a two weeker in a 262 while he is in a D3A.
From a D3A's point of view there is no difference between a P-47N and an Me262. I've shot down a P-47N while flying the D3A1.
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Doesn't matter how good someone is, a vet will never be able to kill a two weeker in a 262 while he is in a D3A. There are certain plane matchups that you simply cannot beat.
D3A has 27 recorded kills on Me 262's up to and including tour 143 ;)
As someone said: There ain't no absolutes. Of course a vet can kill a 2 weeker in a 262 if the latter one screws up. Almost all kills in the MA are being made because someone did screw up something at some point. Things are just more or less likely dending on plane matchup, players and situation. But with hundreds of thousands of kills each tour, everything that can happen, will happen. :old:
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JUG I am not saying guaranteed every time a KI goes against a JUG the KI wins... :rolleyes:
it does come down to who is flying the plane....I have always said that....
when you get close to skill level the plane becomes more of a factor...the further away the skill level the less the plane is a factor.....
2 guys very equal in fighting skill the one in the KI will win against a JUG
2 guys far apart in skill the one who is experienced fighting will win in almost anything he is flying no matter what the unskilled guy is in.
I never said "when I am flying the KI"...I kinda thought that was a givin..... :uhoh
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There are certainly no absolutes in the game Juggler but I've seen you call out that you would own yourself in a mixed plane fight (KI vs Jug).
Sometimes it comes down to styles. I've found there are certain players who are reputable monsters in their plane of choice who I can bring down with regularity and others who, in the same plane, will ring my bell every time. Sometimes style matchups are as important as plane choice.
This is true Mak, but not absolute, I can be quite wiley even against myself :huh
I agree equal skill in "BOTH" planes the ki84 should win most of the time, But most of the time is what I'm talkin about!!!
8-0 vs seadog is extreme IF he has the same experience and skill as Ink, I would think he could have pulled off at least one or 2 upsets! As I think I or Mak could! That is all :salute
JUGgler
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There are certainly no absolutes in the game Juggler but I've seen you call out that you would own yourself in a mixed plane fight (KI vs Jug).
This interests me as a standard for comparing different planes. In a way it takes care of the pilot differential issue.
So: If you were flying a P-47 of any model against your twin - not the MA standard guy , not the 10-best-pilots-guy, but you - in a Frank, would good triumph over evil?
- oldman
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This interests me as a standard for comparing different planes. In a way it takes care of the pilot differential issue.
So: If you were flying a P-47 of any model against your twin - not the MA standard guy , not the 10-best-pilots-guy, but you - in a Frank, would good triumph over evil?
- oldman
Ofcourse, God would never side with evil :devil
JUGgler
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D3A has 27 recorded kills on Me 262's up to and including tour 143 ;)
As someone said: There ain't no absolutes. Of course a vet can kill a 2 weeker in a 262 if the latter one screws up. Almost all kills in the MA are being made because someone did screw up something at some point. Things are just more or less likely dending on plane matchup, players and situation. But with hundreds of thousands of kills each tour, everything that can happen, will happen. :old:
I got SFOX's 262 with a 109F. I only got about a total of 6 rounds into him and he 'sploded
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Both the d40 and d25 have the same airframe and weigh the same amount. The differences are in the engines. On mil power the d40 is insignificantly faster and climbs better. The difference is completely negligible. However, on WEP, the d40 has a substantial advantage in top speed and in climb rate. The only reason to pick a d25 is for the extra perks and kooler skins.
Now the d11=the sexiest jug of them all. Anyone else think the d11 is a more stable gun platform than the others? Anyone else here think it eases into the stalls unlike the other models? Must have something to do with the lighter weight. Might have something to do with the razorback v. bubble canopy providing extra stability. Dunno how the flightmodel deals with those things, if at all.
According to a spreadsheet I compiled based on recordings of my flights, I land hits at an average of 298.62 yards out. These are not killshots, but a total average including 50ft snapshots and 1000 yard pings. So I just set my guns to point 300. [Also, I'm a BnZer, HOer, vulcher, picker. If I was a dogfighter, I'm sure my hits would land closer in.]
I've seen some vids, I think they were by Lepape, of a p47 doing crazy stuff. Wish someone who knew those tricks would teach em too me. There's something in the throttle that I'm not getting.
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Now the d11=the sexiest jug of them all. Anyone else think the d11 is a more stable gun platform than the others? Anyone else here think it eases into the stalls unlike the other models? Must have something to do with the lighter weight. Might have something to do with the razorback v. bubble canopy providing extra stability. Dunno how the flightmodel deals with those things, if at all.
It is a fun bird. It is not a turn fighter of course but feels like it can out turn a P-51 at lower alts.
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It is a fun bird. It is not a turn fighter of course but feels like it can out turn a P-51 at lower alts.
All jugs can and will.
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Take BigR in the DA 51 vs 47s do it again and let me know the results. :D
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At opportune times I use flaps at high speed in a jug. I wonder just how much you gain though.
For instance, is there a speed range where P-47 flaps can deploy (say 400 mph) that would put you at parity in a turn with say an F4u-1a at 400 mph (which cannot deploy flaps at that speed)?
What are your observations in this area please?
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First notch of flaps drop at 250mph in a Jug. Usually, if you're slow enough o drop flaps in a Jug, then you're either about to 1 v 1 or die. Jug takes a long time to regain their E.
My way of dealing with them in 109s is to force them to burn their E, and once I've seen that he dropped full flaps, I retract mine and start spiral climbing. 109's acceleration and HP will pull it through, Jugs will flop around below you. Kick rudder, drop down, dead Jug. The trick is getting them to burn their E.
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Take BigR in the DA 51 vs 47s do it again and let me know the results. :D
Yea that would result a couple interesting films. And so much fun, of course :)
Btw Titan, as far as i can remember, the Jug has the same 400mph flaps as the pony, but the 51 can deploy them faster, and can gain some advantage in the 300-180mph speed range.
Thats what BigR is using very well.
Oh and forgot to mention, any 109 can outturn any jug... without tricking with the E. The more you have to work for the kill, the sweeter the victory is ;)
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first notch is 400mph and I use it alot.
another nice thing about the jug - if you're already -E and the other guy is going mess around spending 10mins building an even bigger E advantage so he can then spend another 10mins burning it in complete safety while picking pieces off you, you can just point the nose down, dive out and find someone else whos prepared to get stuck in and fight you :aok
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Ah, could've swore it was 250.
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Ah, could've swore it was 250.
That would be correct for the F4U's! Trick question,which plane turns better at 400 mph,the P47 or the Spit16?
:salute
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Trick question,which plane turns better at 400 mph,the P47 or the Spit16?
Stirctly at 400mph, or through a very small speed zone, they are exactly equal. In a longer period, lets say, til the p47 slows down to a speed when it cant reach the blackout, the jug turns better: it can pull the same 6Gs but at a slower speed (can deploy the flaps at 400, can slow down quicker), smaller turn radius, faster turn rate. Not much, just a little bit better. Once the jug have reached the stall speed when it cant pull 6Gs anymore, the spit overtakes, being much better at the stall speed and also carrying more E what it can still turn into a rope (bah, spit roping a jug, shhh...) or an even better turn rate. The jug has only 1-2 reversals before its a dead meat.
Just theoretically, of course.
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Stirctly at 400mph, or through a very small speed zone, they are exactly equal. In a longer period, lets say, til the p47 slows down to a speed when it cant reach the blackout, the jug turns better: it can pull the same 6Gs but at a slower speed (can deploy the flaps at 400, can slow down quicker), smaller turn radius, faster turn rate. Not much, just a little bit better. Once the jug have reached the stall speed when it cant pull 6Gs anymore, the spit overtakes, being much better at the stall speed and also carrying more E what it can still turn into a rope (bah, spit roping a jug, shhh...) or an even better turn rate. The jug has only 1-2 reversals before its a dead meat.
Just theoretically, of course.
Hint,both planes are G limited to 6 G's in AH!
:salute
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Stirctly at 400mph, or through a very small speed zone, they are exactly equal. In a longer period, lets say, til the p47 slows down to a speed when it cant reach the blackout, the jug turns better: it can pull the same 6Gs but at a slower speed (can deploy the flaps at 400, can slow down quicker), smaller turn radius, faster turn rate. Not much, just a little bit better. Once the jug have reached the stall speed when it cant pull 6Gs anymore, the spit overtakes, being much better at the stall speed and also carrying more E what it can still turn into a rope (bah, spit roping a jug, shhh...) or an even better turn rate. The jug has only 1-2 reversals before its a dead meat.
Just theoretically, of course.
What we're getting into here is corner speed. I can't remember the formula off the top of my head, but given that A: blackout (~6.5g) is the limfac in the 400 range, B: Corner speed is fleeting and can only be maintained by going downhill with the planes in this game, and C: Most 1v1 fights end up slow, sustained turn rate is arguably the more important figure to consider. Whoever has the better sustained turn will likely also have the lower corner speed as well since it is basically a combined function of T/W and wind-loading. :airplane:
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The Jug is a happy medium. Flown right, it will out turn anything it can't outrun and out run anything it can't out turn. The deciding factor for that statment is acceleration. If you get too slow, the slower top speed planes will run it down before you can get to speed.
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The P-47d25 "feels" more responsive than the P-47d40 to me. I don't have any facts to back this up. The d40 feels more sluggish in ACM.
Does anyone else find this true?
This is just a recent observation in putting in more d25 time. Besides the great skins, I am finding it a great ride!
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D-25 definitely has a better turn rate. D-40 holds E a little better. Their performance is very similar to me though. I use the D-40 as my attack jug because of the ordnance load which is the same as the N. The N, however, is a complete dog when it runs out of WEP which is the only reason I don't fly it more.
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I loves me the D11
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For air combat: the D11. 'Nuff said.
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D-25 definitely has a better turn rate. D-40 holds E a little better. Their performance is very similar to me though.
The main difference between the D-25 and -40 is that -40 has slightly better WEP a few more lbs and better longitudinal stability due to the added area in the tail (the low fin infront of the tail). Perhaps the added stability is what makes the D-25 feels a bit snappier, but any actual performance difference is extremely marginal. The real differences lie in the loadout selection (rockets), skin selection and the looks of the cockpit. I find that I like the -25 skins and cockpit better.
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I read through all 11 pages of this thread with morning coffee or more factual, coffees. I was surprised the M got so little press. The M was even dogged by a couple of posters. The P47D40 is my go to plane in attack mode with its 2 thousand pound'ers an a extra 500 pound'er.
P47 people seem to be defensive of their choice. Not sure why I don't join the ranks of the spits, mustangs, Kis and 109s myself albeit I do enjoy a furbal in an La7.
In AH where, as noted many times, the good dogfights are below 10k, the best situation is being part of a fighter cap at 5-7K above an enemy field. With a full load of ammo it is like shooting fish in a barrel because you can make a pass and wep up on the other side as all know.
In an equal strength furbal the 47M with its wep and good starting E does well as long as the furbal is so intense that no one can saddle up on you for any length of time. When the intensity winds down, it is run time because those good turners with high climb rates is too much to handle. Run out and gain the E back at the right time which is hard to do for me do to a lack of discipline.
To me it seems the sweet spot for jugs is 5k to 8k then working down and 15K and up.
That is my take on it but not a lot of experience to back that up.
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I read through all 11 pages of this thread with morning coffee or more factual, coffees. I was surprised the M got so little press.
The OP limited the inquiry to the D25 and D40.
The M was even dogged by a couple of posters.
Noobs
To me it seems the sweet spot for jugs is 5k to 8k then working down and 15K and up.
No. The sweet spot for jugs is above 28k. I can count on one hand how many high altitude fights I've had in the jug and they were amazing. Nothing could climb with me nor catch up to me. The last high-alt engagement was a 5v1. Walked away with two scalps. Got a little dicey there when I had a pony at 200 off my six, but he couldn't get his nose up for the shot.
Of course if there was a Ta152 present, things might have more difficult.
You like the M jug now...? Try upping with 75% fuel and light ammo load. When you get it down to 25% and 300 rounds left, it's a different plane. You can actually rope things that you never thought possible. This is assuming you've conserved your wep.
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the best situation is being part of a fighter cap at 5-7K above an enemy field. With a full load of ammo it is like shooting fish in a barrel
It's amazing how many get their jollies from this type of behavior. :(
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It's amazing how many get their jollies from this type of behavior. :(
Nah the blue thingy in your UBB image is amazing.
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You like the M jug now...? Try upping with 75% fuel and light ammo load. When you get it down to 25% and 300 rounds left, it's a different plane. You can actually rope things that you never thought possible. This is assuming you've conserved your wep.
Low fuel/ammo and WEP turns all of the jugs into completely different animals. I think the jugs may benefit from WEP more than any other aircraft in the game.
Wiley.
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It's amazing how many get their jollies from this type of behavior. :(
what you mean shooting planes down? Unacceptable!!!